Linda Perry

You know, I'm hard in the studio because when I see potential in somebody, I want them to know about it. I want them to bring it out. You know, I want to help them bring it out. But what I do is I got your clothes on, I got her clothes on, I got their clothes on. I'm fucking loaded up with clothes. I'm drowning. I'm suffocating. And underneath it all, I forgot what I was wearing. Mmm. Bad times. I don't want to have bad. How you doing? I'm good. Thanks for having me. You always have, can I say? Go for it. You always have the best hats. I'm a hat guy. Yeah. You know that. No, you're a trucker hat, baseball hat guy. I am. I am a hat person. This is a hat. I do have real hats. I wear them when I dress up. Right. The hats are funny for me because when I was a kid, I used to run around with a big sombrero. I mean, you know, like when you're five years old and you have like a sombrero like this big and I loved it and they would just fall over my face and I would wrap things around my head. I tried to go to school with towels wrapped around my head because I love that Carmen Miranda look. You know, it's my mom's Brazilian and I was raised on, you know, a lot of Bossa Nova. She loved Carmen Miranda because she met her at one point. But I just loved wrapping things around my head. So if it was a hat or something and then cut to years later, I was walking somewhere out of nowhere, this woman stopped. She's like, do you know why you wear hats? I'm a total stranger. And I'm like, no, why? She's like, because you're an empath, you're always taking in, you take in energy and you wear hats for protection. And I'm like, that's so interesting because I actually almost believed that. I was like, okay. I actually believe that. I could see that. I believe that being a thing. I believe that. Yeah. I could totally see because I am, I'm very sensitive to people's energy. And so when she said that, it's like, you know, because I just don't, you know, I guess I have a hard time believing somebody can come out of the blue and tell me that. But then at the same time, I do believe it. You have to be very careful because I don't want anyone listening to think that you should just believe anything anyone tells you when they walk up to you on the street. But you should also believe what anyone tells you when they walk up to you on the street. Like a grain of salt kind of way, but also in like a possible angels kind of way. Oh yeah. No, totally. Also like what if life has its own way of telling us things it wants us to believe and things it wants us to not believe and they get all kind of matters. So it's like the message isn't always the message. Like when you get it from certain places, but the impact thing I believe because I think artists are their impacts on and there's levels to it. Right. However much you want to let yourself be an empath as a creative person who's making things to help people heal, to help people feel better, to help people work things out, to help people understand life and what we're going through here in this life. But I do think that the impact thing is real. I think you are too. I've always thought that you were very. The reason for me why I would judge it a little bit is because she also seemed like a fan. Yeah. You know, and so like anybody who knew me would already know that, you know, like that I am because one of the conversations I have the most about is like people are always asking me about my production style and how I work with people. And it's very about, you know, if Joel's coming in to work with me, we're going to talk for a little bit like this without the microphones in front of us. And I'm going to ask you about what's going on with you. You're going to tell me a bunch of bullshit. And then I'm going to start reading through you and get down to a deeper place because, you know, for me to write music, I don't have an, I don't like just surface stuff. Yeah. I like to go deep. That's just how I am. I'm a songwriter. So I get into people's space and I'm putting on your hat, your vest. I put your clothes on and I'm like, it's not about me writing a song about what's going to be great for me. It's about how am I going to identify a great song for you. So anyways, I talk about that a lot. So that was the only reason it seemed a little random, but I 100% agree that the universe gives us signs all that my whole life is built on one gut feeling. You know, I'm constantly following this frequency that's constantly pulsing in my life. And sometimes if I open up the frequency, you know, and magnify it, I get in there and I see the signs of what I need to do. And that's how I navigate through life is constantly by receiving these incredible gifts. The universe constantly gives, but sometimes we just don't see it. Sometimes we don't want to see it because sometimes the universe brings us bad gifts too, but those gifts are important for our journey. So I just try to open up and receive everything as much as possible. But I love what you said because it is all true. And especially being creative and our job is to express, we have to keep those channels open to be our best self and to be believable and authentic and organic. And hence why music sucks right now is because people are not being organic and they're thinking they're being strategic. Everything's strategic. And I get it. I get that's what the world we're in, you know, but it's like that element of people going on a gut feeling and expressing what actually comes from the heart or from sometimes how many songs have you written that you have no idea what it's about? Till later. Till later. You hear it and you go, oh, that's what I'm talking about. Exactly. Because sometimes these songs come to us and we're like, I don't know what this is. And then all of a sudden it's like, oh, shit, of course. Why didn't I see that? Or it was for somebody else or whatever. I don't know. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to go into this. No. Just ask you how you're doing it. I love it. You know, what is Westlake? I knew we would have a talk like this. What's the point of small talk anyways? You know? I can't go out. I just want to talk. Because I can't do small talk. You know how people just try to get into these conversations with you and a relay that is a really loud place. I'm like going, I don't hear you, man. Am I hearing you at all? You're a blur to me and plus you're drunk. So I'm not going to get involved in a heavy conversation. But to your point, as far as the thing that jumps out to me the most is remaining open. I think that right now we're in a world in a time where we need to go back to what I'm saying earlier where we have to open ourselves up a little bit more to get a little deeper. I'm not saying we have to go, you know, be, you know, Joni Mitchell. I'm just saying we do need to kind of open it up a little bit and start looking at things a little differently because we need a little bit more depth in life and in art and poetry. And, you know, I don't want to see the same movies being recycled. You know, I think that creativity is hitting a weird space because people are not open to risk, you know, because everybody's worried about their jobs. Every kid out there on social media is worried about saying the wrong thing. How they say, you know, their followers or being, you know, like, I don't know what's the word being canceled or, you know, how am I going to get more followers? How am I going to do this? We're in such a weird place to be creative because you would think it would give us the most open opportunity, but it's actually closing us up because it's making us have more rigid, you know, creative is like being funneled into this, okay, this is the space I can live in. Like somebody said something to me about you can't release demos because it won't be caught onto the algorithms on the DSPs. And I'm like, well, you can't call it a demo. I'm like, but it's a demo. So what the fuck am I going to call it? You know, well, you can't call it a demo because it won't recognize, but I'm not trying to get it on the DSPs. I just I don't could give a fuck about that. I'm just trying to show that this artist has a body of work and this is where it came from, the acoustic version of it. And then I'll release the the big production later, but I want people to hear where songs come from. They don't come blaring out, you know, of your butthole like that, you know, they come perfectly mixed. You know, they come out with like, hey, you know, here's an idea. So I'm trying to utilize that. You know, I know I just jumped into a whole other area, but it's all the same thing. You know, same thing. Anyways, did we have any questions like whatever, just going to hang out? I mean, you know, that's kind of what this is. Right. The main kind of that I can chatter all day. I knew we would have a great talk. And, you know, the way that we do this show, I think for people listening, I want people to feel inspired to go into their own life and go upwards and try and do special things because I think it makes the world a better place. So when we get to know each other better and we get a sense of people, it kind of feels like it's achievable for us too. No, and I understand that that's what the whole social media is for, is for people to, you know, say, hey, this is who I am. And, you know, but when it's real, you grab onto it, you know, and when it's not, you know, huh, the real is hard to do, though. Yeah, exactly because people edit themselves constantly filters, you know, and, and I think it's kind of, you know, hard and, you know, like long time ago, long time ago in the 90s, we had run around and flyer and as we're flyering, we would talk to people and people would get to know our personalities just being out on the street and then it would make them want to come see our show and then the personality that you're displaying on stage, it's real, raw, you know, emotional and fun, then you're, you know, engaging more people and then there's more people at your show and blah, blah, blah, blah and so on, so on. So we're missing a big part of that piece now, you know, in the music is because now you're having to go onto social media and think about, okay, how am I going to engage if I tell a story about, you know, this, is that going to do it? Okay, that didn't work. Okay, I'm just going to, you know, I did a test actually the past couple of weeks because I'm terrible on social media, but somehow I've gotten better on it because I had that big TikTok explosion, you know, with the bees in the trap and what's up, it was like a huge trend, right? Yeah. So, and what was great about that is I had reunited Four Numb Lawns already, you know, and so I was like, hey, you know, we got an offer to play Bottle Rock, do you guys want to, and every year I get asked to reunite Four Numb Lawns and I'm like, no. But how did you do it? I just called them up, you know, so well, first of all, I came out and, you know, I, at my studio, I have this, my lawn, my front yard, and it's where I always go and I manifest, you know, so I stood out there and, hey, universe, I'm ready to receive whatever it is that you want to give. And then I said to the universe, and I'm open to reuniting Four Numb Lawns. Kid you not. A week later, my manager calls me and he's like, so, I got some interesting offers and I'm like, yeah, and he's like, and I'm like, go ahead, I already knew. And he's like, well, I just got to call Bottle Rock, they won Four Numb Lawns and to play. And I'm like, started laughing and I go, you know, I just put that out into the universe last week and so funny it showed up so fast. And so anyway, so I called up the band and I said, hey, you know, we don't talk at all. And I said, listen, there's an opportunity for us to play. I'm not approving yet and I'm saying yes. I'd like to come out to San Francisco, like to meet you guys at a rehearsal place. Let's just see how it feels. If it feels weird and awkward, done deal, no big deal. Moving on. And I see you guys. And they were all like, okay. And so I go out there and it was weird and it was awkward and I gave it another day and they came the next day and the next day I just changed my perspective. I was just like, I'm putting too much on making this something. Yeah. Or even like how it feels. Yeah. It's like, whatever, you know, it's like, let's just jam. So the next day I said, you know what, I just want to jam. Let's just see, you know, let's play some stuff. Let's stick around, whatever. And we did that and we instantly just fell right back into place. We were a great band together. Great Krista, the bass player and Don the drummer and Roger phenomenal players. And so then I was like, okay, do you guys want to do this bottle rock show? And they're like, yeah. And I said, just to let you know, once we say yes to bottle rock, all the other offers are going to come. So I'm just letting you know in advance that I have to control everything. This is not a democracy. This is not raise your hand. You know, and I'm in control. So first of all, it's an awkward thing to get together with people you haven't seen in 20 years, no matter what their relationship was. It's just time. It's just, it's always going to be awkward. So it's going to take a little bit of practice to like be together with anyone regardless and let alone a band that you have like a history with and probably like some unresolved stuff or whatever, like all bands, right? So that I would say was huge that you guys could just get in a room and stand the awkwardness and the uncomfortable. Like most people can't do it. They run away from the pain of discomfort of being in the presence of someone that there's something unresolved or something hasn't been like unpacked and sorted out. So I think that's incredible that you guys did that. And then the fact that you could say what like, this is how this has got a worker, you know what I mean? You like basically you gave them terms of a relationship, which most people also don't do. They don't like work it out together. Like I think a successful relationship, I actually heard this somewhere and so it's not mine, but a successful relationship is just a set of sustainable agreements that everyone agrees on that they can sustain. And so if you can't sustain it, you shouldn't be in that relationship because it won't be successful. And what's the point? Right? Well, time is the only thing we have that we can't buy more of, right? So it's incredible that you got there. I'm just saying it as you go. So continue. Well, I'm just so you know, I'm very comfortable in discomfort. So like I'm really good in that space. That's great. In fact, I thrive in discomfort. That's great. And laying down rules, I just have to, you know, because that's just the way it's going to be. I'm not going to all of a sudden rejoin this band so it could be all the same bullshit as it was before, you know, it's just not going to happen. Why did it on the first go around, right? And this is hugely successful. You know, you're living the dream. You're in a band, you become a rock star and everyone, you know, obviously anyone who hasn't done that, I'm not saying it is the dream. I'm saying that's what you think it is when you're going for it. Why did you shut it down? It wasn't shutting it down, per se, because I didn't really mean to do it. So basically for me, I was not prepared for the level of like people trying to, I mean, everybody want to interview me. I wasn't one of those lead singers that felt like I needed all the attention. Right. And nobody ever wanted to interview anybody else. So this pressure of me constantly always having to speak for the band felt weird to me, you know. And then there would be some situations that would happen within the band where totally understood this, a jealousy kind of thing. Why is she getting all the attention, you know, we're equally, you know, a part of this band, blah, blah, blah, which then turned into me getting resentful going, well, fuck you. I'm not asking to do this. You go do the interviews, you know, and if you want to be, you know, looked at as a songwriter, then you stay up till two or three in the morning and get up and write those songs. I have no problem. You can come knock on my door anytime. I'll probably be up and I'll probably be writing a song. It's just what I do. So if you want to take on that responsibility, I'm totally open. Yeah. Also, like go come up with the great ideas for the song. Go. There is something about a creative driver. So it so that those were the kind of things. And then honestly, I was just like, that was my first band, you know, when I was before Forne on Blonde, I was already making my way up as just acoustic. You know, I was showing up. I played opened up for DeBora I.L., Bob Moll. I opened up for X. I was starting, you know, my own little thing as this girl that show up with her acoustic guitar. And where was this at? In San Francisco. Okay. In San Francisco. So is that where you're from born and raised? No, I was I was born in Boston, raised in San Diego, and spent time in San Francisco. Moved up there when you got like like around 20. Okay, cool. So right, you know, I moved to San Francisco around 20 or 21. Cool. And then I moved from Boston to San Diego when I was one years old. Oh, wow. So you were in San Diego a long time. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. So I was there. So, you know, I was doing pretty well as the singer, songwriter, weirdo girl that, you know, had dreads and was kind of kooky. And then it was the band that showed up. Anyway, so the point is I was having this moment on my own and then shifted over to this band because I thought, you know, this could be fun, you know, and I didn't bring any of my songs into the band. I played their songs and their songs were like country punk, you know, it had like a, it was dumb and fun, you know. And then until I started realizing, you know, maybe I could, maybe I can marry the two. So I married the two, brought my songs in and started writing more. And then all of a sudden that's when things started taking off. So when we started making the second record. Right. You write fucking amazing song, you know, but when we're, so all this stuff is happening, we blow up, it's huge. Everything's where, you know, one hit, I get it, whatever, big song, fucking huge song, big song for anybody, you know. Yeah. Give me that song. You know, and I was like starting to find a different part of me, you know, because I'm inspired by so much, you know. And so when we started working on the next record, I just, I was like, dark. I was dark. I was getting depressed and I was very confused about, you know, where am I going with this? Because, you know, I'm thinking I'm on the wrong path. I don't think I'm supposed to be here. You know, I was supposed to stay on the other path that was going to be, you know, either way I would have gotten to where I was going to go. It just would have looked different. Linda solo, Linda with band for non-blanche, you know. So it does, there's no, I don't care. I'm not resentful. I'm not, you know, like, oh, I, you know what I mean? I don't have that at all. And then so when we started making the second record, I was like in like Tom Waits, you know, Pink Floyd, E.L.O. that's where I'm at, you know, I'm like, oh, okay, I can explore all these other pieces about me. And the band would write these songs and they'd be like, that doesn't sound like a four non-blonde song. And I'm like, you're right, it doesn't, you know, and then then I would bring in another one. That doesn't sound, that doesn't sound, that doesn't sound. And then it was like, okay, let me go write a song that does sound. You know, and then play it to them. That sounds more like four non-blondes. And I'd be like looking at them going, are you fucking kidding me? I just gave you gold over here. You know, it's like, what are you talking about? And so then Christa said to me, oh, this was a big thing. This is actually a great story. This is huge. So I'm sitting with my best friend. I'm sitting with Christa, the bass player, and I'm telling my manager all separately, different stories, different times, same story. I want to play Carnegie Hall. I want to play Carnegie Hall. I want to look into the audience and I want to see people in suits and fancy dresses, jewels sitting down, watching me because I have an orchestra behind me and a big band. And I'm singing songs that really mean something and they're open and they're airy and they're spaced, you know, and it's powerful. And I'm just standing there, you know, and everybody's like, you know, and my best friend, Aubyn, is the only one that's getting it, you know. And so then my manager calls me a week later, a week later, I have a week thing, seven days. This guy's going to call you, just know it is who it is when they say it. And I'm like, okay. And so this English person, hello, Linda, you know, and I knew exactly who it was already. So it's Roger Daltry for you kids that don't know from the who. And if you don't know that, basically who started punk rock. Okay. Stop listening if you don't know that. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Okay. But look it up Google. Catching P.T. And so then, you know, I'm like, hello. And he's like, this is Roger Daltry. I'm like, I know. And he's like, it's my 50th birthday and I want you to come out here. And I'm playing Carnegie Hall and Bob Azrin is going to produce it. My one of my favorite producers and Michael Kamen's conducting the orchestra. You know, I'm doing such a bad job with his voice. And I'd like for you to come out and I don't know if you know my music, but I'd like for you to come out and sing Acid Queen and Dr. Jimmy. And I'm like going, and I'm like going, he's like, can you do that? I'm like, yes. Just tell me when I'll be there. Anyways, I show up and there's fucking Pete Townsend, John Entwistle, Michael Kamen, Bob Azrin, the whole orchestra. And I just started crying, crying. And he walks over to me and he's like, are you okay? And I'm like, I am so okay. I'm beyond so okay. Right. So that was like this moment that happens, you know, and Bob Azrin after the show comes up to me, you know, and he's like, you are incredible. And then one of my favorite directors, Terry Gillian, comes in and Terry Gillian did Brazil and Time Travelers and a bunch of other great things, but incredible director. And he comes up to me and he's like, who taught you to be like that? And I'm like, to be like what? He's like, the way you're dressed, the way you're dancing around on the stage, he's like, you're like a character out of one of my movies. And I'm like, it's just how I've always been, you know, and I got my big boots on, you know, I got a hat on and whatever. I look like Oliver Twist. Well, you look like you. Yeah. But I go home with my buddy and I'm like, and I had my dress and like shave off my hair. And he was like, what? I'm like, shave it off. And so I shaved my hair off. And he's like, are you sure? I'm like, shave it fucking off. I'm starting a new thing. And then I go back in to talk to the band. We had some shows and then I go talk to them and I say, listen, I'm unhappy. I'm suicidal. I'm depressed. I'm really unhappy. And something just happened to me that validated what I need to do and I need to go. And they were like, and I feel actually emotional saying that because I remember. I feel emotional. I remember their faces, you know, and the stupid songs I did write, they were actually really good. And I knew they were. And the record company was, it's so excited. Tom Wally was listening. They had picked their singles, everything. But I just knew it wasn't where I was supposed to be. So that's why I left because it wasn't anything in particular that anybody did. It was, I just knew and everybody thought I was crazy, you know, for doing that. Like, are you kidding me? Like you guys are one of the biggest bands. This record is amazing and it's going to have so much success. And I said, it's not worth it to me. If I'm unhappy, I'm not going to be happy playing these songs. You wrote them. I know I wrote them for you guys. Who taught you to express yourself like that? Who like was the example? And maybe there is one. I don't know. But like who I have a lot to say. I see it in your eyes. I have a lot to say. You're thinking right now. You're thinking the whole time. I don't want to forget what it came to me when you started the story. It came to me. I understand. And so I want to say that. So I don't want to forget that. But I want to know. Reach out of that file. I want to know where you got the thing that so many of us, we don't have it. The ability to express ourselves. Now me, I had to get there and I'm still not great at it. But I can do it when I write a song. Maybe. But then I sit in a room and I can't express what I think or how I feel in a moment that pertains to me. And then I might find myself on a whole other path. Getting led down a whole road because I didn't say no. Now I don't feel actually like this is nothing. There's a way to do it without saying fuck you to someone. You say this isn't the fit for me. This isn't right for me. This time it's not right for me. Whatever it is you can say no to people. You can say what you did was in a moment where everybody wants more. Everybody wants just the biggest record. One of the biggest records of the time. Everyone wants another one. They're all dying for another one. They're waiting for the next hit. The next let's keep the fuel going. Let's keep the coal in the train. Let's keep the thing. And you go, I'm not happy. I feel suicidal. I feel like I just want to know like who nurtured. That part of you if anyone did or was it a reaction to maybe not being able to at some point in your life. So to answer that and here's going to be a little promotion. I have a documentary coming out called Let It Die Here. When my solo album comes out May 8th. But the record and the documentary are kind of connected. They're very connected. Right. So which is super cool. In that documentary it'll answer this question. So let's leave it. No, no, no. I want to answer it though a little beyond that. I am a survivor. When you're a survivor you have nothing to lose because I could care less if I die tomorrow. You understand? Like I live like if somebody broke into my house I would go kill me. I don't give a shit. Go for it. Because I don't live in that space of like fear of I mean I love life. I love life. Let me try to explain it a little differently. But when you're raised a survivor my mom was mean. She was a mean Brazilian woman that was very opinionated. So I loved her. I love her still. She was one of my biggest influences. But that woman was mean. And I remember the story my dad looked like and don't be shocked when you hear this price but in the 70s gas was 47 cents. Right. Gidgy fucking not. It was 47 cents. And so my dad asked and then and self service like the full service was there and it didn't cost extra to go in full service. So my dad pulls into full service says give me a dollar that's you know two gallons because we were poor. So the guy puts in a dollar 25. He comes back to my dad. Okay that'll be a dollar 25 and my mom just whipped around and looked at my dad and it's like no you asked him to put a dollar in that 25 cents is going to come out of his pocket. You didn't ask for that. And my dad was like Maria you know just whatever and my mom's got the very heavy accent. She gets out of the car. She goes right to the guy and she's like you owe my husband you know 75 you know at 25 cents. You know and he's looking at her like but ma'am put a dollar 25. She's like you put a dollar 25. He asked for a dollar and I'm going to stay here until you give me the 25 cents back or I'm going to go to your manager you know and that guy got so afraid of my mom gave the 25 cents gotten car. My mom threw the fucking quarter at my dad and said Alfred you need to fucking learn how to you know take care of yourself and stand up for yourself. And my mom is an immigrant you know she came here you know not she got married she got her visa and everything but she barely knew English and she my dad was an engineer. He worked for you know Macintosh back in the day. It was called General Dynamics back then but you know my dad was making missiles and computer chips and stuff like this. He was a very smart man but he had no backbone whatsoever. He was very passive aggressive so that dynamic I think is what I grabbed onto. I can either be that loser you know that's an alcoholic or I can be the woman that's standing up and surviving and strong but hopefully I don't become the abuser you know. And I had to choose very quick in my life which which person so if my mom threatened to leave which you always did I always ran upstairs packed a little bag and sat by the front door because I would rather be with my abuser than the guy that is a wimp. Were you close with your dad? No no I wasn't right because my dad was like one of those my dad was from Portugal but he was raised a white male that believed that women were you know you know deserve to be just in the kitchen you know making dinner pregnant you know barefoot and pregnant you know they shouldn't vote they shouldn't have credit card my dad was that guy and you know we're Americans and you know you gotta have American names and you know all this stuff and my dad was a very pro-american because I think that's the way he was raised because his family was in Boston there's a big Portuguese community in Boston and so when everybody migrated to Boston it was immediate it's uncool to be an immigrant right we're we gotta be Americans right you know so I think his father raised him to be that way so to answer your question it was basically I was beaten into being outspoken and that was the only way I was going to survive because I had to start fighting her and I only could fight my mom with words right I can't I can't hit my mom right so I had to stand up to her in a way that nobody else was my other members of my brothers and sisters were not and I was the youngest I would watch my mom fight with my dad constantly and it just taught me like okay I'm going to have to be a fighter in this world because I'm definitely not going to get anywhere just walking away so I would put myself in the situation constantly and you know I'm aggressive I am I'm an aggressive Brazilian woman and that and I'm also in fucking Aries you know and that's like you know you can't get any more aggro than that yeah I think you're I think you're very much when you've arrived to something you've arrived to it and you get I think you're likely once you know you know and you can't unsee it once you know yeah and then you you can't stop thinking about what you saw that's where you want to go and everything else is noise there's like something also about a mean or critical parent that even if they don't mean it they don't know they're they're surviving in the world and then they're trying to raise you to survive in the world yeah no totally I listen my mom loved me very very much she loved me very very much and I know that was there ever tender moments with her no did she the tender that wasn't like a way in life like like life was there was no how are you doing in my family right there is never like wanting to know how crying no days well we had to stop crying so like the group but we the group you know the the my brothers and sisters got um sister and we would get together and we would say okay we just have to stop crying because if we stop crying she's gonna start stop beating on us you know she's only beating on us because she likes seeing the crying right she knows it's affecting us so we gotta stop and so we just one by one stopped and she would punish you guys with like spankings or like beatings beatings like what's a beating you know like like like uh like just grab anything and hit you with it type thing or like my mom has broken a broom over like my sister's head right oh she's tied me up on the railing and whip me you know I've been chained up to a dog caller and put in the doghouse oh my god like that abusive like bad things you know like the kind of stuff that I would like really sorry I would be in a story like in our friends be like oh yeah my mom like she totally you know you know my daddy you know we I had to go to bed early and my dad didn't let me watch tv and then the friend like yeah my mom hit me in the butt the other day and it really stung and I'm like yeah my mom would put hot spoons on the burner and put it on our tongues and everybody'd be like oh this is this is this is okay and it wasn't until my adult years I'm not kidding until I realized like oh that's that was not cool you know because you're just thinking this is the way you're raised and and listen honestly I'll tell you this the the honest I wouldn't change one thing oh because I love the person I turned out to be and I'm loving who I keep growing into you know and absolutely you are listen you're that those stories first of all I I have to say you can't change anything yeah right we can't but abuse is tough one for me and it's not that we have to accept it we it's wrong but we can't change it some people become broken from it yeah and then there's these like incredible people like you I'm very like I'm sensitive to it because I've been around it my whole life and it it's something that I've done a lot of thinking about and I mean by that that I've been around it my whole life I would say I didn't suffer the horrible abuse that you just kind of explained like you gave me a little peek I'm sure there's more to it it's horrifying to me because as kids we don't choose to be abused or neglected or there's lots of different forms of it but physical abuse is like the manifestation of that in its like worst form is those like levels of physical abuse too it's just like there's levels to it and it's but to me it's all horrible neglect is pretty bad too and then there's emotional abuse which is also really twisted and like which one's worse it's like this big world to which one did you have I would say this is top but never thought I never talked about this stuff I would say neglect emotional and some physical but not to the level that I think it was negligence yeah but just so you know there is no abuse is abuse whether someone got hit harder or you got hit softer that doesn't matter because it's still affecting the same system you're still yeah it's still it's still it's the injury is the injury and I feel emotional abuse I had that and mental abuse is actually I rather have the beatings you know because that that one's the one that sticks with you the most and you can kind of when you become an adult with the physical you can kind of go that was wrong yeah I know it it's black and white that was wrong emotional emotional you have to there's paths that it creates it's really it causes these things you know the way you think the way you operate the way you feel about yourself so like where what did it do for you and I also I will say that like there is negligent abuse there's there's abuse like you could say well I didn't mean it I I have this or I have this problem or I have a drinking problem or I have a you know or also then to witness abuse as well if you witness your parents abusing each other there's so many like to me like levels and angles that abuse and trauma those kind of traumas can affect us so it's very complicated because I think like a lot of people go through it and they don't realize that how did it affect you um it affected me in a um a few different ways so anxiety I developed anxiety at a very young age I started having panic attacks around the age of 11 and I would have them every day of my life until I was in my late 20s and realized I didn't even know what that was I thought it was normal so it was really strange when I started going to therapy which was like in my late 20s after I was lucky enough to have like a few relationships with really good people who really cared about me and that would say I'd say that's what set me on my path to like therapy and like really working on myself and developing a bunch of shit that I didn't get to develop um and so that was like my journey was actually I went out into the world it was a super religious house it was very like uh and then my dad was an alcoholic and and then um there was the the darker side of our family was there but then there was this like these moments of like I guess happiness I don't know I don't know if we were ever happy but like they were trying and like it was like a really strange place to grow up because also they used religion as like like we're kind of like better than everyone else everyone else is going to hell kind of like that's the messages I got like when I was a kid and and I never felt like it fit me like I never really like believed like I'm like well they don't look so bad everyone looks pretty it's like they're having fun over there like you know what I mean but it was like being upside down and like this is down and this is up kind of the way you're raised in like religion and so it was really tough because everything had a religious kind of was it Christian or Catholic with like evangelical Christian like very hardcore go to church three times a week um and everything is had a religious connection to it so everything we did was because of this and it was like or if something bad happened it was because this you know they hit you was because of this if it was this because so it was very religious like everything was attached to the religion so it it was a very confusing way to grow up because really you're not learning how life works you're not learning how the world works you're not learning anything useful to go into the world and actually function for all the religious people out there it's a beautiful thing the transcendent part of life the the higher meaning the idea that there's something bigger than us that that god is up there it's incredible and it's important I'm not taking that away but you have to know how the world works to be in the world so you got to understand how you get a job and you work and you build over time and things can grow and you can you can build it's not just you know praying is like a meditation right you can manifest meditate you can pray then you have to get up every day and you have to do things and you have to work with all different people and you have to like learn how to be in the world but I think too with um religion ritual practice is important yeah you know so I think that it's not a matter of maybe someone not wanting to teach you the way of the world but that is the world that's the world that they live in and so there's you know and you know there's like that routine of doing something you know like I feel like I live in a bubble you know because I don't like to venture out too much this is the world I live in I want to be right here but I'm not you know forcing anybody to be in it but it's like you know I'd be curious like as far as the anxiety and having kids like did any of that transfer into you being a father and having children and did you have any concerns because that was one of my biggest concerns when Sarah came to me after we got married and said you know I um I think you're supposed to have a kid and I'm like no way if there's one percent of my mom in me uh-uh you know and so then it wasn't until we had Rhodes did I go oh my god I'm a great I'm a great mom you know and I'm really amazing and in fact everything wrong my mother did it was showing me what not to do you know and so and I basically raised Rhodes with how I was I wished I was raised you know with that same love and same compassion and understanding and respect yeah same strategy for me yeah okay great just do what I wish I would have like I'm re I'm actually just living the childhood I never got with my kids so in some ways it's really fun because I'm just like a kid I don't give a fuck I'm like I just love it and then in some way and now as teenagers now they don't really want to like hang with me all the time they still do a little bit like we have a cool relationship but like I just have lived vicariously I think for Nicole it's a little frustrating sometimes because she's the rule keeper there has to be some structure there has to be some rules we find our our balance but definitely the strategy is like let's have a good childhood let's make some memories let's have fun yeah so that's great I think that that was a really wonderful and beautiful gift that was given you know because it really you know having that child really healed me a lot I mean I'm more than I can ever imagine and you know going back to you know you and the anxiety and I'm sure there's more but I won't press for that but it's like some stuff yeah yeah I know but it's like how amazing in a weird way so like when I'm when you're talking about being broken and stuff like having those experiences really helped to find who I am and where my songs come from you know who I am as an adult who I'm as a friend and having this you know kind of everybody always calls me badass or fierce or whatever I'm just a strong human being that has survived you know a lot of things and to back up when I say that you know a burglar came in I wouldn't be like a victim like no yeah I would just say go for it you know and I would probably attack you know like I would be that person yeah you have a gun I don't care you get a couple shots in me but you're going down you know because you will not fuck with my family like I'm that person and I love that you know like Rhodes says to me all the time like I know that you will always protect me and take care of me yeah I know that about you you have that you know and I'm like I feel like I'm with you I'm like I'm not worried you know so how much of this is in the documentary so the documentary is a funny one because I didn't mean to make a documentary first of all I let someone come in my studio that wanted that thought I was interesting and wanted to shoot be a fly on the wall like in my mind the last thing I thought was a documentary I thought he was just going to get some cool footage and I could use for content for social media yeah but also like to document any part of our life we'll never regret it even though we probably don't do it enough I'm the same I'm like eh cameras but then anytime I've ever let it just like on a tour now on if we ever do tours which isn't often we bring somebody because we just want the footage because I look back and I wish I would have filmed more absolutely no I agree but yeah so I was just like sure whatever can I use some of it for social media and that what's funny is I remember his look when I said that it was more like okay because I think he already knew what he was up to and didn't tell me and so then all of a sudden stuff started happening you know I had started having a meltdown you know I started things were going on in a very short period of time while he was there and I'm just like thinking of course you know and then he came to me and he said um hey you know that footage I've been you know the stuff I've been shooting I'm like yeah and he's like well I added 30 minutes of it and I'm like yeah and he's like and I showed it to some people and I'm like uh-huh and he's like and everybody thinks it's a documentary and I just looked at him and I said Don I don't want to hear about it do what you're going to do but don't include me you know and he started laughing he's like but the documentary would be about you I'm like I hear you but I don't want to know about it and then I'm like so just do what you're going to do if I said it I'll stand behind it if you caught me how can I deny it that's pretty cool you know just do what you're going to do but don't fucking talk to me about it I don't want to know about it you know so you know cut to stuff going on and whatever and then you know the end ended up you know like okay Linda I need you to see the documentary and I'm like do I have to and he's like yes you have you have to sign off on it's about you so anyways the documentary is not about my life story it's not about Four Nons Blondes it's about a moment I was having after years of like writing for other people and trying to bring out the best and people like you know I'm hard in the studio because when I see potential in somebody I want them to know about it I want them to bring it out you know I want to help them bring it out but what I do is I'm like I got your clothes on I got her clothes on I got their clothes on I'm fucking loaded up with clothes I'm drowning I'm suffocating and underneath it all I forgot what I was wearing you know so I started losing my identity like who am I I can't write a song for myself I can write a song for anybody else but I can't write a song for me and I'd sit and try to write a song okay you know I think there's one moment in the movie where I'm going what would Linda write you know and I'm like blank okay Joe what do you want to do I hear five ideas you know just spewing sending it's like bam bam bam bam but anytime I want to write for me it's like crickets crickets so that's what the documentary is about and so I have this breakthrough kind of because there's a big moment with my mom there's a moment with my health and at the ending it is so beautiful you're happy with it no I'm not but it's like a really beautiful moment and it's a beautiful expression and it's so stunning to me and and that moment I was like okay I get it I get why this had to happen it is so unflattering visually on me you know and it is raw as can be it is so beyond embarrassingly honest it's I mean I can't fucking believe I'm gonna let this motherfucker out there but it's like I realize why it needs to go out there especially now you know and then at the end of it I wrote this song and that's the beautiful moment you know like I wrote a song for me and then I'm teaching the band and it was in real time you know I wrote it the night before I asked the director to go into the studio I'm gonna go in a rehearsal room I'm going to mate I'm gonna put a band together I'm gonna have strings I'm gonna have backgrounds he's like what are you gonna do and I'm like I have no idea and he's like so why all the musicians I'm like because something's going to happen Don and I believe that you know so he's like okay I'll be there he gets the crew and he calls me the night before he's like um do you know what you're gonna do yet I'm like I have no idea so I hang up the phone with him maybe a couple hours later I just started solving and I go to the piano and I just wrote this such a beautiful song and why were you crying because it was it was a lot you know and I don't want to spoil why I wrote the song okay I love it I can't wait to watch it yeah and so I wrote this song and then I call him in the morning I said I wrote a song he's like great I go and it's a really good one so I enter in he starts filming right away and I'm finishing up the lyrics the band show I tell the band to show up at 10 strings show up at 11 bv show up at 12 so band shows up at 10 I teach him the song strings walk in right at 12 or 11 and I have a part in my head as soon as I see them the the part shows up filming that teach them right when I'm done with that the bv show up I teach them the background vocal and then we are playing it and it's like it all you see all that in real time happening you know and it's just this really incredible moment to watch a song come from nowhere yeah and you're teaching it to everybody right then and there this wasn't like over weeks this was a few hours even that you know it's like watching a painter paint it just showed up and you know I didn't know what the drum beats were going to be I didn't know what the bass part of the guitar but it's like teaching everybody as it's coming oh I like that buh-buh-buh strings no okay do-do-do okay bvs okay I don't know but here seeing that and then at the same time I'm still trying to learn the song myself you know yeah but you are a master I'm just saying you're a master so you've been doing this for enough time with talent you're not just someone who doesn't have talent who learned how to do it and you have the ability because of your experience and all the awful and wonderful things you've gotten to experience in life which not many people can say they've experienced the pendulum to what's the furthest it swung out like how far bad can you swing it out pretty far bad I'd say you're getting a hot spoon put on your tongue or getting whatever it's pretty far here and then rock start them all the way over here right then having children having the experience of all these incredible things right you've gotten to see the whole pendulum so there's something about that not many people most people live right in the here they're like it kind of hits these sides it's like pretty good but pretty bad pretty good right you've got to go all the way to the edge all the way to the edge so much so that some people this is why I don't think being a rock star is good for everyone some people go to the edge and they kill themselves because it's too much that's a sad truth of of this thing we do where there's a edge that we all look at we go do I want to go over the edge some of us will go over the edge and become a shell of a person and we're not real we can't sit here and actually feel things and we don't know what we like and we don't have real connected relationships and like I've seen we've seen you know you know what I'm talking about like there are people who are living in a shell and you're like who's in there and then you have these people who accomplish incredible things which you have but I think I wanted to touch base on the unhappy people that you're talking about like that you know hit the edge and you know don't want to be here anymore I think that too is all stems from no one ever feeling good enough you know like you get someone like now mind you I have no idea the state of mind of this person but like if you get like someone like Kurt Cobain who you know is a heroin addict you know yeah we know that um but you get to a point of where you know no it doesn't matter what you you can call me a master I loving everything you're making me out to be like a pretty powerful person pretty powerful but I don't see that right right I'm like going who the fuck is he talking about you know I'm constantly hard on myself I'm not good enough you got to be better you got to do this you got you know that song sucks you got to write better you got to get in more in touch you know you got to get more you know you start Linda you got to work on your patience Linda you're you got to stop overreacting you got a blah blah blah like I'm constantly adjusting in life you know I'm constantly trying to adjust because ultimately I would love to be this person that you're talking about but I don't see it yet so that to me would set anybody that's my depression the thing that gets me the most is that I can never just go I've made it that's pretty good you know like I can't get there I can't get there do you ever go like that was pretty good I'm happy with that that's good perfect okay yeah no um okay so all I'm saying I'm like what are you talking about all I'm saying all can you do that all I'm saying is so okay now let me say I say that with Rhodes well there you go with my child I'm like I can confidently say I'm an awesome mom I'm I'm trying my best I'm not always perfect but I am doing a great job because I see it in that child like that kid is phenomenal and I can honestly say that you know but like am I a great producer no I don't think I am will I get there hopefully am I the greatest songwriter I still have a long way to go to get there you know although I can write all these songs you know but I don't think everything I do is great I can identify a good song like okay you know what I like this I like this record okay I understand what you're saying but I think there's a base where we have to hold it's a practice right we're never going to be out of practice we're always going to be like there's never going to be a level that I'm satisfied with as a songwriter and maybe you'll never ever truly be satisfied but I think like I do think that comes with even just wanting to master something like anything whether it was golf or whether it was art whatever there is something like like to people who are in pursuit of the very best they can of themselves that will never be fully satisfied but that they can hold it and go like like the way you probably the way I am with my kids and the way I feel I can hear it right away when you talk about roads I know exactly what kind of mom you are that's everyone's dream mom the mom who accepts you supports you still pushes you a little bit to like try your best but like you can't fail in her eyes you can't let her down she's never going to be ashamed of you he's always going to like welcome you with a hug it doesn't create a weak person it creates a strong person so I always say like what I did get some of was acceptance of like if you fuck up your mom said like helps you figure it out she's like talks to you and it's like it's okay let's figure this out it's not saying you're right or you're wrong or whatever just acceptance like a hug and they see you and they and they they love you just as you are and so it makes you want to go try it makes you want to so I think there's like some of that like we give because we didn't get it and then some of it we have to like what I've learned with my kids probably is that I need to give it to myself sometimes but it's so easy to do for our kids because they're like I think the experience you have when you're young it shapes like you either repeat it or you do the opposite and we're doing the opposite but I think that you know going back to the whole story of just you know the okay you got the documentary and you know here I am exploring okay who I am in this film and and then after fact I you know I wrote this whole album you know all of a sudden just came out then it turns into you know going to Tribeca and premiering the movie and then performing this album you know and I'm like you know having you know like this is amazing then it goes into you know all this is happening and then the four non-blondes and then you'll appreciate this so when I forgot to I want to bring it back there because there it's a funny thing so after the fact I put the rules down the other rule I said is like and by the way I don't want to play any four non-blondes songs except for a train and what's up those are the only two songs I'll play at these shows and then everybody was like uh but um what are we going to play and I'm like I'm working on that and then in a matter of bad ass by the way in the matter of two or three weeks I wrote a whole album and I kept sending it to them as I wrote the song I send it to them they would rehearse it in San Francisco and then finally by the time we were going to rehearse and start rehearsing for Bottle Rock I had a whole you know a whole set of all new songs except for Train and and what's up and um did you have fun I had so much fun because what I what I what was great about is I've never written a record like this or written in this style but I was thinking okay so I don't want to play the old songs get it but I'm gonna be playing a bunch of new songs so what kind of show do I want to have what kind of show do we want to have do I want to have the show where it's like a good charlotte and people are doing or do I want like you know a show where there's a little bit of and a little bit of listening you know oh okay I think that that would be a balance you know I like and then but in order for people to get into it they're gonna need to sing these choruses I gotta get them to sing the choruses so I just like I'll just write the most simplest hooks simple choruses not very wordy at all and that's where I went so I created a whole show and just okay this is where we're gonna have our downtime you know and I'm gonna this is where this song is gonna show up so it was really fun you know there are a bunch of dumb fun songs that have some depth but not too much you know and so as we are playing I could tell right away what songs we're working okay that one people are not grabbing on to so the next time right when the next time I write another one like they're gonna put it this song in and so I kept doing that until it was like literally the master album it's like every single song I'm watching people they're jumping up and down they they're all the right cues are happening and I'm like there's the album you know great way to write so it's a great album I'm really actually you know impressed with myself about that one so there you love your record I love it I think it's really cool so I'm not done recording it but they're coming in next week and we're going because I wrote three more because I want to also have the best album I so I keep replacing songs and so I just wrote three more they're like are you fucking kidding me I'm like I just it's got to be the right album it's like we're it's got to be 10 11 songs 12 tops but it's just got to be a really solid record you guys because if we're gonna do this after 30 years I just want it to be the best record it can be and I want to know that I did everything I possibly could you know absolutely they're coming in next week we're gonna record these three songs then it's like some overdubs and then off to Dave way to mix you know when their record come out my record just came out in my documentary it's called let it die here but anyways all those things are it's a very deep it's very it's a lot to take in right it's a story about me and my mom you know very cinematic I scored my documentary so I brought some of the score into the album too and you'll hear why I needed to do that because they were transitions they were emotional transitions and and it's like I have strings I have theremin I have vibes I have marimba I have a samba song I it's like I have so many different characters in this album it's it's it's and I just didn't think about it I was just like you know what I don't know what Neil Diamond is doing here but I'll fucking do it you know like all of a sudden like this Neil Diamond character shows up I don't even listen to Neil Diamond I'm like going what does this remind me and I'm like oh of Neil Diamond and but I'm instead of judging it I just I just did it I just went with it and so I think a lot of my influences showed up and I think the influences showed up because they are reminding me of moments of what's going on in my life so the the documentary isn't about my life but the album is right you know and so then then Forneau and Blonde's songs will come out this side of the year but the album itself will come out in 2027 wow but I'll release a couple of songs on this side that's a big year yeah it is year or I mean I've been planting a lot of friggin seeds you know and talking about swinging I'm swinging off that edge and I'm gonna fucking dive off of it you know swan dive off of that you know I'm going and I like to me the only thing I can say is I'm in a moment I'm on a wave right now I'm just trying to stay in it and not control it yeah and it doesn't mean I love it but I'm in it and I'm appreciating why I'm in it and I don't really understand completely but I'm so like I'm in something I'm in it I mean I don't know I just all I can say is I'm in a moment and I'm totally digging it I'm really like all right I'm gonna own it I'm gonna take it I'm not really thinking about age I'm not thinking about anything I'm just like past present whatever I'm just gonna be in this moment with you as we are talking today there's no agenda there's no plan as soon as you said I asked you said what do you want to talk about something you said no I'm like that's the only way I'd like to talk yeah so this has been a dream conversation because I feel like when we go in and plan things planning can mess things up because you know it's like well maybe we were going to go this way but because we had a plan we stopped from very often asking about you and talking about your anxiety and some of the things that happened to you in your life and maybe tonight when you go home you'll go to Nicole and say you know what the strange thing happened today talked about my anxiety and it made me feel a certain way but I was okay with it because usually I probably would have ran and was like said no but I was actually okay with talking about it which makes me feel like I've grown as a human being whatever this conversation is going to be so I appreciate this style of open communication and so to me everything that's going on with me is fully open communication I don't know what the plan is I'm just in it and just try not to control it and I'm a control freak but I'm just trying to lay low kick back and go all right I'm down with whatever's about to happen I think you're on I can just feel it like I think you're on your path thank you and all of this is necessary and you wouldn't you know like if you went back and said what would you change about your career I would tell you nothing ask me what I would change what would you change nothing there you go thank you so much for having me on this show thank you appreciate it right thank you for watching artist friendly if you like this episode please make sure you hit the like button you follow the channel and please share it with your friends we appreciate the support that is why this show exists because you listen to it thank you guys we'll see you next time