What Finally Broke Orbán’s Grip (w/ David Pressman)

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Granger, for the ones who get it done. Hi, Bill Crystal here. Welcome to Bulwark Takes. Very pleased to be joined by David Pressman, a lawyer and human rights activist, diplomat. Most importantly for us, our ambassador to Hungary from mid-2022, I think, to the end of the Biden administration, January 2025. Really a terrific ambassador. I've seen a lot of them over the years. I really spoke up for American interests and values, but also for the dissidents and for freedom and for democracy in Hungary itself. You've gotten some quarrels with Orban and the Orban administration, which you handed yourself with dignity, but also didn't back down at all. So that was great. I've talked about it. I'll just say this and then we'll talk about what happened. But I've talked to a fair number of Hungarian dissidents and opposition figures who've come through Washington in the last few years, also elsewhere in Europe in 2023 and 24. And they've all expressed admiration for you, but also a gratitude for the fact that you kept the flag flying there during pretty difficult years, I guess, for the Hungarian Democratic, Swaldi Democratic opposition. I mean, they had lost that election in 2022 before you got there, I think, right? And then they were sort of feeling like they might never be able to defeat Orban. He was tightening control. And so I really, they were grateful for what you did. And so am I. So thank you for joining me today. I congratulate you. Thank you so much, Bill. I really am coming from you. That means an enormous amount. So I appreciate that. Well, I think it's well deserved. So let's talk two things, two topics. I thought what happened really in Hungary. You have such a granular and deep understanding of the country and the politics there and who was doing what and what do we watch you from over here, Miss. And then secondly, let's talk a little bit about lessons for America, because you've also spoken about that and written about that since you came back. But you were there. We have surprised for you. What were their key turning points, moments that this became more likely than not? What would you call our attention to? There's a lot to discuss. And there are aspects of it that are surprising and there are aspects of it that are not surprising at all. One of the things that Peter Magyar did in his campaign was he took his campaign directly to the rural heartland of Hungary. The constituencies and communities that have been described to me, certainly coming in as US ambassador as Orban or Orban's party, Fidesz, strongholds. And Magyar went to those strongholds and he delivered a message and opened a conversation with conservative Hungarians that was about kleptocracy and corruption. I mean, this is one thing I think that's missing a little bit from the Western understanding of what's happening. There's a couple of things. But one of which is Magyar was not engaging in a policy debate with Viktor Orban or Viktor Orban's party. This was not about and even to the point of are we European or are we not European? That was sort of the framing of the old opposition. That wasn't Magyar's campaign framing. His framing was Viktor Orban and Fidesz are a criminal organization and we need to dismantle this criminal organization. And he connected the impact of the criminal organization to these rural Hungarians experience. So when you go to the countryside in Hungary and you realize these are smart, sophisticated people and they can't go to a hospital that's up to the 20th century. They can't go find public schools that can properly educate their children and they're watching as these old Hungarian grandmothers I sometimes talk about are describing to me as their grandchildren moving out of Hungary and leaving to try to find opportunity. What Magyar did is he explained to them that the reason your hospitals and your schools are crumbling is because these guys are stealing from you. And I think that was hugely impactful. And I'll just say one of the things that I always expected because I viewed my job as US ambassador as to advanced US values and interests. And so much of that I needed to do in the countryside in the very same communities that Peter Magyar led this campaign. And I always waited Bill to show up in one of these villages of 60 people and have people be very angry and hostile with me. And you want to know what? It never happened. Never. They were keen to engage in conversation. They hadn't seen a government official, albeit a foreign government official ever. And you could hear in their questions of me, the government propaganda sort of infusing their question, you know, why is the United States profiteering on the war in Ukraine? Why do you want to import gender ideology into Hungary? Whatever it is. But they actually wanted to know the answers. And so there's, there's, you know, am I surprised? I'm surprised that Magyar was able to penetrate this pervasive media control that Viktor Orban has over Hungary. But I'm not surprised at all that the Hungarian people were prepared to choose a different path. So interesting. Yeah, let's come back to the lesson maybe about making kleptocracy and corruption and the real world effects of kleptocracy and corruption central to the campaign when we talk about the US. But I'm struck. Some of the coverage here is, you know, he stayed away from the cultural war issues. He stayed away from democracy as a kind of big picture issue is pretty, pretty concrete in what he talked about. But I also was talking with David Baer, who wrote about Hungary for us from Budapest this last week, and has been ahead of the curve in seeing that there could really be a huge upset here over the last year or two. And he says that's underestimating the degree to which those particular issues he raised for important, but it was against the backdrop of what is Hungary means, you know, the meaning of the nation almost. And he thinks it was very important. I'm curious what your thoughts are. Madre was, was a, I mean, he presented himself as speaking for the true Hungary, the true traditions of the great traditions of Hungary. He called David Kultefress, and writing for us liberal patriotism, that it was he combined the liberalism with the patriotism and didn't let Orban be the patriotic candidate against the, you know, whatever the kind of, uh, Lutlis, gospel, politics or something like that. Is that correct? Do you think? And a hundred percent, I might frame it slightly differently, but I think that's absolutely correct. And I think that even if you look at the symbols that Madre used throughout his campaign, it was about reclaiming the Hungarian flag and reclaiming that Hungarian identity was about something more than being opposed to Brussels and being opposed to George Soros and being opposed to these sort of marauding outside forces that Victor Orban invested so much time and so much capital and so much attention into stirring up and sort of projecting into everyone's daily life through billboards and television stations and radio stations. And so Madre, I think, did, uh, independent, independent of saying democracy or not democracy or NATO or, or he didn't use the idea of outside influence, though. You know, I mean, he did point to the absurdities of Orban's relationship with Putin and this idea that, that the malign influence that's actually being exercised in Hungary may not be George Soros and David Pressman and Ursula von der Leyen and Vladimir Zalinski, but maybe Vladimir Putin. And, um, and I think that it wasn't a policy debate in the campaign in the sense that I don't think Hungarians went to the poll to reject Vladimir Putin. But what Madre did is he connected the relationship between Vladimir Putin and Victor Orban as one vector of mass corruption in Hungary. And, and that, you know, people could see and feel when they went to their schools, went to their hospitals. And so, you know, I will say, like you began this conversation with, was it a surprise? And I remember, because I was ambassador at the time when Peter Madre emerged on the public stage for the very first time. And I, I, I obviously have relationships across the board with basically every Hungarian political actor. And, you know, the most savvy observers on both sides and Fidesz and in the opposition, they did not think that this guy could manifest movement. And even when he began to produce crowds in Budapest, they thought, oh, sure. But once he goes to the countryside known, we'll show up. And then he showed up in the countryside and there was a crowd of people. That was a one off. That's not going to work. And it just kept going until it became sort of inevitable that he was the face of the opposition. And also, I will just say, maybe this is jumping ahead, Bill, to your second point. But in terms of lessons learned, I've heard a lot of discussion in the Western press about this and speaking about the broad coalition that he brought together and all of this, which is absolutely true. But also, this is, this is about leadership. I mean, Peter Madjar was able to do something that all of the previous leaders of the opposition were not. And we should talk about how and what he brought to the table to be able to do this, but it's not just the ability to assemble a coalition. It was also not being afraid. And he was not afraid. Bore takes a sponsor by DeleteMe. DeleteMe makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. This is something people with public profiles should think about, including me. But everyone should be safeguarding their personal information because it's kind of weird for people to just be able to Google your address. Very weird. 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The only way to get 20% off is go to joindeleteme.com slash takes. And enter code takes at the checkout. That's joindeleteme.com slash takes code takes. That's so interesting. Well, let's talk about that because it is an relevant to our situation. I mean, yeah, there's been a lot of talk about his obviously deft politically and maybe it helped him that he had been in FIDESH and didn't look like a Budapest liberal, you know, running against or about which I guess was somewhat true of the preceding races were bonded. One. But I think, yeah, I have the sense that's too simple. Might it wasn't just that, you know, they, they, they figured out, oh, hey, we nominate someone who has a more of a conservative background, so to speak. And that's going to magically flip this huge percent of a lot of votes. If you compare the election in 22 to 20, 22 to 2026. Yeah, that, yeah, talk, I mean, the people in the coalition deserves some credit, I suppose, for all be willing to, to unite behind them, including people who probably had some, you know, justified resentment that, gee, we've been fighting warbong for 10 years. And where was this guy, you know, I would be like here, right? With Liz Cheney or something. It'd be like if Mike Pence had become the Democratic nominee, I feel like in 2024, 2028, it's like, you know, we're not quite. But I mean, you know what I mean? Or something like that. But talk a little bit about both the leadership at that level of people being willing to put personal preferences aside in a sense and histories aside and unite. But also about, yeah, how did he do, how did he turn, how did he turn it into a real movement and what were the keys to his leadership? Great question. I mean, I think I put less weight on the fact that he was a conservative who was an insider than I don't think that that's what made Peter Majer emerge. The only piece of that that I think was relevant, at least initially in his campaign, which is how he exploded on the political scene, was that he purported to have insider knowledge about the corrupt schemes. So his very first moments on the political stage was he goes to a YouTube broadcast called Partisan and he sits down for this long interview with this incredible remaining independent journalist named Martin Guyash. And he says, I have all of the deeds on what Fides has done. And so his insider status was useful in that he was finally there was an opportunity to see what these guys had been up to. But really it had less from my view and others may disagree that he was a conservative. In fact, I think that made it in some ways harder because he was it was sort of using your vice president Pence example. There was a lot of skepticism remains a lot of skepticism and questions. It was it was the fearlessness and the fearlessness manifested it in the way he communicated. So I remember this moment while I was ambassador at some he emerges onto the scene and and they start going after him. They the Fides party. But remember the Fides party is controlling all of the instruments of state. So when when the party goes after you, it's a government going after you. And at one point this was early on they start making fun of him because he was wearing what they called women's sunglasses. Just a small example. And his response to that was not to deliver sort of a lecture on gender norms or to say how dare you do this. He took he started broadcasting and projecting as many images of as he could of him in these sunglasses. Smiling, having fun, more sunglasses than he auctioned the sunglasses off. Did a public auction, which created a whole story, raised all this money to deliver to women's charities. And through it all here to be having a good time. And so, you know, there was a brashness to his communications that felt strong. And I think one of the things when we think about how you confront strong men is it requires a kind of engagement that's not something that we're really accustomed to in in politics and certainly in diplomacy. I mean, Bill, you said nice things about my tenure. There's a lot of people who say very negative things about my tenure because they describe me as undiplomatic. But in fact, in an environment like that, if you want to be heard, you need to speak in a way that people will listen and that will get through in an environment that's controlled. And Peter Madra understood that. Remember this guy until it's actually last night, he put out a statement that it's going to be his first time on Hungarian public television. A year and a half later, a very first time he's going to be covered by the Hungarian public television because the Hungarian public television, of course, had been under strict instructions not to cover Peter Madra. So it's remarkable that he was able to circumvent this and connect with people. So the way he communicated. And then, too, I think this rural outreach in community building. I mean, he, Fidesz and Victor Orban is Orban, whatever you think about him, he's an extraordinary politician and he is extremely savvy. And he built an operation that knew how to build community. I mean, you would see Fidesz go out and they would like host picnics bill, you know, I mean, they would send their ministers to rural communities and they would have picnics and I would be like, what are they? This is sort of a strange thing for a senior government official to be doing. But it was like embedded in what the party does. And Magyar replicated that with a similar relentlessness of engagement with communities that had been written off by the previous opposition. And I think that the combination of those things overlaid with not engaging in policy debate and just talking about kleptocracy is how Hungarians galvanized behind a candidate who wasn't proposing policy change, but was proposing system change. That's so interesting. Yeah, the system changes a good way of putting it. Was he, I should tell this, but was he well known at all before he emerged onto the scene and when was it 2022 or so 2023? Was he a prominent figure? No, not at all. He was the spouse of the justice minister who was a very prominent figure. Udyt Varga was her name and both minister Varga and the then president of Hungary, Katali Novak, were forced to resign as a result of a pedophilia scandal. So there's this major scandal in which the government, which the president of Hungary pardoned a pedophile. It's a huge story. Galt started this whole movement. And this is the party that holds itself out as protecting children in sort of the imaginary abstract sense. But in the real sense, it comes out that they're actually protecting pedophiles. And Viktor Orban responded to this moment where people were taking to the streets outraged. It was a version almost of their Epstein scandal, candidly. And Viktor Orban responded to it by firing the president and firing the justice minister, the justice minister being Peter Madjar's wife. And Peter Madjar's first statements on the public stage were Viktor Orban, you can't hide behind these two female officials. And that's that's the first time that he actually became had a public voice. And it's and the story goes on from there. Yes, it's so interesting. If you think of the American analogy, I suppose it would be as if it's not worth getting into the details. But I mean, the fact that he wasn't known much three or four years ago and then wins this massive victory, it's really something, isn't it? I mean, is it? No, let's ask a question about the media, which you alluded to. But so Orban really controls the media and not like here, where we can deplore Elon Musk and X or, you know, maybe what's happening with some, you know, some of these wash repose to CBS News. But we're it's a whole different level, obviously, in Hungary. How did he get through to people, though? I mean, was it the independent? There were independent journalists still and using websites online. I mean, was there anything to be learned from that? I think there's something to be learned from it in that. And it goes to my point about how he communicated differently is that what he said became so newsworthy and it's not dissimilar to what I tried to do. It became so interesting or different that even the government controlled media had to cover it. So there had because people were talking about it. And so this women's sunglasses thing became a thing, even though it was it was too unusual to not report on. And so but his his communications was largely rooted in, you know, online mobilization and and rallies. And, you know, I often the Hungarian opposition parties, they fought for a long time and they obviously were unsuccessful in unseating Victor Orban. And I think that there's a lot of resentment that they feel towards Peter Majar understandably, because one of the things that he did that also allowed him to succeed. And I should have mentioned this, is he completely rejected them and all of their infrastructure. So if you had ever been associated with a previous opposition party in an official or formal capacity, you could have no involvement in Peter Majar's quisa. Now, some interpreted that as being, oh, he's a conservative, a right winger. He doesn't want to be involved with these lefties. I'm not so sure. Like, I think he actually believed that if he was going to propose a change of system, that he needed a entirely new, entirely independent infrastructure. And mind you, when he was doing that, and I heard from the leadership of all of the opposition parties, he won't be able to succeed. How do you build an entirely new party? How do you do this? No one believed he could do it. And in fact, he did. So I think there are lessons to be taken from that in terms of ambition, in terms of how we communicate. Certainly the United States is not comparable to Hungary, but he was still able to communicate in a Hungarian system. But really, like the most important part is that he wasn't afraid and he demonstrated to people how not to be afraid. Majar at his press conference yesterday said something that I thought I really related with and I thought he was right. He began his press conference and it was a big press conference. He said, usually at these press conferences, the prime minister will only recognize government media. I'm going to recognize any of you. I'll stay here as long as you want and I'll answer all of your questions. But I want to say something to the foreign correspondents in the room. He said, the propaganda apparatus in Hungary, he said, was like North Korea. I don't think you understand how bad it was. And I think he's right. I think that most Americans and most Westerners don't appreciate just the sheer power that having just all of these platforms of communication, bad mouth, you smear you, it spy on you. Well, like what that does to individuals. But Majar, to his credit, he didn't he didn't shirk and and plowed through it in a really impressive way. And he really seems to have created a social movement more than a new party or, you know, right? I mean, as you say, the rallies, the, the, the leadership, the courage, I guess the question is governing. You do have to do more practical things, maybe, but I guess we'll see how that, how that goes. Anything for us to be watching for there in the short term, medium term or anything? Oh, it's going to be. How does and how does he disassemble everything? I mean, how does he deal with? Yeah. I mean, this is going to be an extremely hard test because and this is something I think we need to watch for in other democracies that are confronting illiberal leaders, where you begin to see what our formerly government institutions or even quasi government institutions be coopted and handed off to political allies and cronies. Like this happened on steroids in Hungary over 16 years. And so Major is inheriting a system that even though he's the prime minister and even though he has a super majority of parliament, as such that he can amend the constitution. Many of the institutions that were traditionally state institutions, including the educational system, including some of the cultural systems, including the media have been privatized. So they, and they've been privatized in the sense that they're controlled by loyalists to Victor Orban and they'll continue to be. And so, you know, one example I'll give you is the prime minister's political director is also at the same time as being the political director of the prime minister. He also runs a sort of bogus university that doesn't grant degrees, but it's called Matthias Corvinus Collegium. And really what they do is they sort of train culture warriors. I mean, that's the heart of what they do. I'm sure they'll be very, they won't be surprised that I said this, but they will disagree with it. But that's what it, but it's funded by a billion dollars of shares of the state oil company of Hungary's deals with the Russian Federation. And so this state money, this resource that should be going to public good is going to this sort of sham political operation that's run by and will continue to be run by Victor Orban's political director. So how you sort of untangle all of this is going to be a real challenge. But I'll tell you, Bill, when I heard Peter Magyar, the night of his election, begin to list all of the people who needed to step down from their positions. It seems to me that he's pretty clear eyed about the challenge ahead. Well, Lee, I'm just curious about this for foreign policy point of view. On the one hand, there's people who will have an interest in making it difficult for my garrison, my garrison to succeed, at least, to Putin being one of them, I take it. The EU, do you think they, I mean, unfortunately, if you were still ambassador, if there were a different US government, we would be helping the newly pro liberal democracy government in Hungary. I don't think we can expect that much over the next two and a half years from the top of the US government. Maybe some stuff can happen beneath the radar screen. What about the EU? How helpful can they be? Will they be, do you think? I mean, is that a bit of a resource for him? Oh, for sure. I mean, I think, I mean, even seeing the relationship that's starting to develop between Warsaw and Budapest, I mean, you have a collection of European Union member states who are so eager to work with Hungary. And mind you, Peter Madjar is not going to agree with every policy that the European Union and his European Union colleagues are advancing. And that's not the point. But what I think he will do, which is very different than Viktor Orban. And by the way, the same analysis holds true for the NATO Alliance is he'll cease using Hungary's position in these consensus based organizations to instrumentalize his ability to veto things in order to secure really parochial often financial interests just for him, his party, or even Hungary. I mean, he will be a participant and believe in a United European Union and a United Alliance. And at a time where we're confronting the threats that we're confronting, that's super important. So I think, you know, this is without question a big setback for those who wish to divide our Alliance and for those who wish to divide the European Union. And of course, Vladimir Putin is top on that list. No, that's so interesting. Just a few minutes. I know you've got a very tight schedule. Let's talk about the American side of it. I take it you think that, well, do you think that the kleptocracy corruption set of issues, especially when connected to real world implications for people is power would be powerful here will be powerful here over the next in the next and dealing with the Trump administration. I think so. I mean, I think, I think, Bill, that one of the things that we have not transitioned to in the United States in terms of how we're viewing what's happening is we continue to see sort of what's happening as instances of corruption. And at a certain point, we need to transition that perspective that it's not, these are not aberrations from the system of government. This is the new system of government. And in that respect, I think we can learn a lot from Peter Madra, because Peter Madra wasn't calling out individual abuses. He was calling out an entire platform that was designed to enrich a kleptocratic elite in a family of Victor Orban. And so there are haunting parallels, I think, to our current domestic situation. I am concerned a little bit that as we look at this situation as Americans that we're confronting, we keep seeing some outrageous and unprecedented, in my view, illegal acts taking place. But we continue to view them as individual sort of derogations from practice as opposed to a new system that has actually been in place that needs to be challenged systemically. That's so well said. And I think I got, I hope people, I'm sure you're talking to a lot of people, but you need to really make this point. I'm on a listserv and some zooms with a lot of very good, mostly lawyers, like liberal lawyers. And some of it's, they're wonderful people and they're fighting the good fight in a million ways, you know, in court and litigation and other ways for human rights and for liberty and democracy in the US. But they do still, they can't help themselves. And I do this myself, something to slipping into the kind of, can you believe the Justice Department, these are people who have been in the Justice Department for 20 years have been assisted in US attorneys or been, you know, senior people in the US government. And can you believe that they're doing this now and don't they understand this? And I do sometimes just intervene and say, we need to stop saying, can you believe? I mean, this is what they know what they're doing. It's not that they don't understand what the ethics, the traditional role of parts of the Justice Department have been or the firewall between the White House and the Justice Department or, you know, the whole, they know all of that. They want to change that. And they have changed it to a remarkable degree in what 15 months. I mean, they just run rough shot over stuff that you were in government when I was in government somebody years before. You're just careful about letting someone buy you dinner for costs more than $50 or whatever the rules were. I can't even remember. And we're so unbelievably far beyond that. And so, yeah, I do think this still requires a little wrenching on the part of the Democratic Swallity opposition here to understand that. I like your formulation that we need to change a system, not just to change policies. Which is a scary thing and a very, I think, unprecedented thing for Americans to consider. And I'll say one other note as we close out here, but just as I watch what's happening in Hungary, and I'm watching now those insiders or even not the insiders, but those who are adjacent and facilitating the corruption and the kleptocracy in Hungary over these years and profiting from it. They feel very uncomfortable in this moment. And I think that as we think about our roles as individuals, as institutions, as businesses, as Americans, as we confront an unprecedented moment in America. When you look at Hungary, you realize that these moments will end. And when they end, you want to be standing with the principles and values that have animated, in my view, the United States of America, but also the principles and values that you're comfortable with. And I think that there are a lot of people who are pretty uncomfortable at the moment in Hungary because as Madjar has pledged, there's going to be a time up for transparency and a time for accountability. Yeah, it is a big challenge, though. I've thought about this a lot in the US context in terms of if you take over in January, 2029, and you're the journey general, what do you do with the Justice Department? I mean, you can't fire everyone, but you know, you can't really ignore what's happened. You turn over the rocks and you find things. You don't look like you're prosecuting cases from three years ago for the first year, spending your first year in office doing that. I believe you can't turn a blind eye to, I mean, it's a very tough set of choices, I think. Indeed. Yeah. But that's a bridge that can be crossed once you get rid of the immediate authoritarian threat. And in that respect, I do think that you think that what's one reason what's happened in Hungary is so important is that it takes away the inevitability sense of this. There on the ascendancy, liberalism is old and tired, illiberalism has got the wind in its back. And I do think that's really other things have also contributed to Trump's decline of popularity here, obviously. And yes, elections here, special elections and the off year elections have contributed to denting that. But I think Hungary may be more than anything else has really helped puncture that sense, which is a very tough sense politically. You know, if you just think you're running uphill all the time, it's just hard to keep on running, you know. I really agree with that. And and did it by saying all of this talk that you've offered about civilizational struggle and and and these outside forces that are coming to invade us. And ultimately, we no longer believe you. We no longer believe that that's what you're doing. We want you to be focused on on us, on Hungary, on our sovereignty as a country, not on your political popularity with the far right movement globally. And I think that's a powerful that's a powerful judgment. And obviously, that judgment has resulted in a historic election in Hungary. Amazing. David, thank you for what you did actually, as ambassador, where you continue to do in terms of a lot of your activities here in the US and abroad. And for joining us today, really a fascinating conversation. We'll have to resume it sooner rather than later. Well, thank you so much for that. And thanks for the kind words. Appreciate it. It's great to see you. Great to see you.