Getting Curious with Ben Yzaguirre - Ep. 198 The Way to College Podcast

Hi, this is Dr. Ossas. I'll be with you another episode. I love the podcast. I love what it has allowed me to share and to bring into this world. I'm especially grateful to the folks that I've met throughout this journey, particularly those who have been outside of my network originally. One of those gentlemen has been Godloss Goddell and us. And then a couple of folks, sort of adjacent or in the same field as him, because Godloss did a wonderful job connecting me to a number of people who he thought would be excellent guests on the podcast. And a number of them have have agreed graciously agreed. And so I'm grateful to him. And because without him, without his help, I don't know that today's conversation would be happening. So what I'm going to do before we get started is I'm going to allow my guests to introduce himself. So Ben, would you mind introducing yourself to our listeners out there? Yeah, I'll be happy to. So my name is Ben Isagere. I'm the vice president of education and conferences at the school nutrition association. So Ben, thank you. Thank you for for joining us today. I, when you, when you introduced yourself, so I immediately want to know more about your work and. But, but I'm going to pause and I'm going to, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to wait. Be patient because as with all of my guests, Ben, I always want to start with their educational journey. And because I think our educational journey plays such a significant role and sort of laying out our path for us. And so Ben, if you had to go back and think about where is the starting point for your own educational journey, where would that starting point be? I have to say I love this question. It's so simple, but it can take you in a variety of directions. I listen to some of your previous guests and how they grapple with this. And you know, where do I define the beginning of my journey? What do I define the pathway? Is it at this point in my professional career? Is it at this point in my formal education process? Is it something that happened outside in my personal life that kind of influenced how things go? And so, you know, for background purposes, you provide this question beforehand. You let me grapple with it for like two weeks. And this is the only thing we've discussed beforehand. And I've gone on a journey just trying to find my educational journey throughout this question. So I went to the professional roles and thinking, should I start there? I went to kind of my like high school journey of my professional role of working at Pizza Restaurant. I thought about my college career and my grade school career and all those things combined. And whenever I thought about an event that might be the start of my journey, I kind of kept going backwards to no surprise. Everybody starts off in their childhood and how things kind of leave an imprint on you and how you evolve as a person. And for me, every single point of my journey, every single thing that where I made a pivot or I made an iteration in my career started back with this, with a curiosity that was born in my childhood. And that curiosity was born out of boredom. So if I have to start my educational journey, I'd say it starts with being bored. And I'll kind of give you like a reason for that to explain it a little more. So it's not confusing or you wonder why I'm saying that. But for me, you know, I grew up in a household. I was the youngest of six kids with my folks. So it's eight folks together and a three bedroom house. And so we, you know, we didn't have a lot as far as material things, but we had a lot otherwise a lot of love, a lot of engagement, a lot of things we could do. But we often had to make up your own entertainment. You had to find things to keep yourself occupied. And it was really rooted in that boredom that I started journey for just being curious and finding ways to continue to keep myself occupied to keep myself engaged and to just continually grow. So for us, we lived out in the country. There wasn't a neighborhood kid or group of kids that I could play with really on a consistent basis. My siblings were, I was the last one as I mentioned and there was an age gap between us. So they weren't hanging out with me. They weren't doing things. We didn't have a lot of money. So we didn't have, you know, these are or things like that in the 80s. We had a beta max that somebody, you know, somehow we got and, you know, what can you do with the beta max ever. So we didn't have educate or good entertainment options, but what I did have and was so valuable to me was my parents lived on five acres. And it wasn't five acres of just a field or just a forest or anything like that. It had different ecosystems in it, which was fantastic for a young kid who is bored and who wants, who is curious to create their own entertainment and to learn and to just get out there. So we had a field that whenever I could scrap together people, we'd play a baseball for a ballgame, something like that that we find we had woods where I built a tremendous amount of forts and tree houses and things like that. We had a pond built a built at one point. We had a stream, which is the most amazing thing for an eight year old boy to just go out in the stream every day after school and catch crayfish and just like learn how to do that. And you can occupy you for hours at a time. We also live next to a quarry, which you can get a lot of trouble just, you know, going out and exploring the quarry and things there. So it was, you know, it seems a little odd to say to connect these things to my educational journey, but it was this kind of foundational principle of like find your own path and find things that are entertaining and can help you grow a little bit. That I really point to you with every single pivot and every single iteration of my journey as a student as a professional that helped me to grow because it's, you know, being stagnant is not something that I enjoy. It's it's continuing to learn, continuing to find out the reasons why things are or look deeper into just into my professional role so that I don't stay bored. It's bored is a state that I don't want to be in continually, but it helps driving. Then thank you. That's an incredibly well, what I'll say is as soon as you began to describe growing up on these five acres, spending time outside and and sort of make creating your own entertainment, I immediately knew what you were talking about. I didn't grow up on five acres, but in the neighborhood that I where I grew up, you know, I remember just being outside and playing in the street, you know, we didn't have a lot of traffic so you could go play football or something in the street or there were fields around our neighborhood and, you know, there were maybe a group, there was a group of maybe four of us and going and exploring. And you know, like camping or or or you know and and so it's just amazing what that does for you and, you know, like you said, curiosity and being responsible for creating your own entertainment, but also kind of. And you didn't say this as much, but I know this is exactly what you're thinking. Being responsible for facilitating sort of your own learning, like let me go and explore and learn this. So let me go and you know, right? And so learning with your friends or yeah, it's that's. Thank you. Thank you for for taking us through that. Let me ask you. I don't think you mentioned this, but where did you grow up? I grew up in Maryland kind of it's much bigger town than it is now it was called Mount Erie Maryland. Pretty small when my folks first arrived there in the late 70s, I think there's one stop light and our house used to be a barn. It was a farm so I get converted from a barn into a house. But yeah, it was not a whole lot of folks around. Certainly not a whole lot of diversity or anything like that. It was pretty far out there. Oh, no, Ben, you, here you are. You're in a big family. What would you say were some of the earliest lessons you got or what was the earliest messaging you got in terms of a formal education that. That's a good question too. It was always expected that we get good work expected for me to get good grades and to go to college Mike. There wasn't a question of will you do this? We will you not. It was just the baseline. So there were a whole lot of celebrations. Oh, you got straight A's or you know, you made the honor or whatever it was. It was just okay, you did that. And now we got other things to do. So you continue and it working around the house or whatever it is. But I mean, my parents, they were kind of the first of their generation to go through college and they instilled those values in me. And it was just always like you hit the books, you can get your education and wherever it leads, it's where it leads. My mom being who she was and living in that small house, she always had these dreams that she would kind of assemble a like a trade group within her children and within their spouses so they could build her a house one day. So she was always pushing me to be an architect because I was good at math. She's trying to get the plumber angle and electrician angle and things like that. It didn't work out that way. Obviously. But yeah, it was always just kind of a set expectation that you will have this education. You will go to school. We will figure out how to make it work. But there's a level achievement that we expect from you. You're here you are and your mother's secretly or maybe openly hoping that you are. Get into the trades. What is it that you wanted to do? You know, 10, 11, 12 year old Ben. What were your dreams? Yeah, it's, you know, reflected back on this with the original question too. And it goes through iterations. And the common theme for me is I get really deep into a subject like I like to learn something and learn it well and go all in. And so being a young kid on those five acres and exploring, you know, the land and learning about the animals and everything there. You know, there's something nature related, you know, marine biologists or park rangers something like that. I subscribed. We, you know, scraped up money so I could get Ranger Rick magazine and I had, you know, years worth of that. And I read it covered cover. And I would submit articles that never got accepted, but they would always never write me nice letters of rejection when I did. But yeah, earliest thing I took a deep dive into animals and to ecosystems and just trying to learn as much as I could. I didn't last too long. I probably threw my elementary school years or so that kind of died out when I got to middle school after that. But that was the most immediate thing that the second iteration of it, you know, after my, my nature journey was when I got to high school, I got just incredibly into history. And that carried me for a number of years after it. But I would lobby our teachers to bring back courses that they had long since retired and nobody was taking. And I took every single history course that my high school offer and I was just absorbing as much as I could. So when I got to my teenage years, it was, I want to be a historian and I'm going to focus on this for my life. You said your parents were the first in their generation to go to school and go to college. So, and you said college is kind of the baseline or at least school was a baseline. You're going to go to school. When it came time to decide, OK, I'm going to go to college. One, where did you decide and where, how did, how did you make that decision? Yeah, I didn't have a whole lot of direction, honestly, at that point. Like I knew I wanted to, but I was all over the map as far as what school am I going to go to. So I applied, you know, like on one extreme to Penn State, huge, giant school, you know, thousands and thousands of kids you get lost in. And then the other end of the spectrum where I ended up going as a small college in Maryland called St. Mary's College where everybody lives on campus. There's like there's 1600 or so students at the time. And it's a very kind of tight environment. So, yeah, I was all the replace that my dad influenced me to go just because of my personality to the smaller school and fitting in a very introverted. So I thought, you know, that would fit me better. It's also in stakes very Maryland. So it's cheaper. I've got some scholarships to go along with it. So yeah, that's kind of how I started on the college. But I was still very much into history at that time. I'm going to do something. I'm going to be a museum or going to teach it or whatever. And I majored in history and undergrad. Thank you for saying that even you kind of like the guidance, right, as part of like the college applying to college and stuff being a little lost because I think like for folks that have never even I think, you know, I'm not going to date you, right. But I would say the fact that you owned a beta max would kind of tell us kind of the error that you're going up it. I can relate. It seems like today looking at and helping students through that process like the process has just gotten harder. Not easier. And it's much more competitive. I think these days. And so I think I appreciate your comment because, because I think regardless of where you find yourself. I think it's like as a student, but even if your parents have an education, if your parents went to college, like it's still a difficult process. It's still challenging. I think for folks. So I appreciate that comment. You go to St. Mary's College and very small college. And you major in history. What was the transition like going from because you didn't really speak to your high school experience, but for example, do you remember how many people were in your graduating class? High school 400 or so. So it's roughly equal to my college experience. Wow. Was there any was the transition difficult at all going from your high school to St. Mary's College? I don't think it was beyond the traditional things of leaving home and making new friends and that experience. I really did enjoy that. I'm grateful for my father for suggesting St. Mary's because it really did create that tight knit group, which worked for me, which worked for my personality. The small classrooms too with the professors of like being able to talk to them and have meetings after class and not we didn't have TAs or anything like that. So it was really intimate experience. So yeah, the transition to college. It really went well for me. When you say you describe yourself as introverted and you said your father thought St. Mary's would be a better bit for you. What do you mean? Tell us what you were like as a high school student that your father would say maybe the smaller college would be better for you. Yeah. Yeah. So incredible. I mean, I've worked on it over the years, but incredibly introverted in my high school and great school days of you know, you have a group project. I'm the last one to raise my hand. I have a presentation. I'm not going up to classroom. Oh, I find excuse I have to go to the bathroom or something like that. Oh, the bell rang. Sorry. I can't do it today. So that was me and I learned, you know, we're talking I have to overcome this and I have to be more comfortable with public speaking and getting in front of crowds and everything. And so that was on my map when I went to college and I was thinking about history of like, this is something I really need to do if I'm going to succeed in life and continue to grow. So what's the most challenging thing to do as an introvert who's afraid to speak publicly. Get in front of a group of 30 high school students every day and I became I got certified in teaching part of my college experience and I was in the high school environment as a 22 year old teaching 16 and 17 year old. So that'll get you, you know, unafraid look works both ways, but get you unafraid, but also afraid of students. I did last very long as a teacher's just a couple of years, but the experience of growing and being up there and be able to lead a classroom and lead a conversation and to organize events was something that I knew I had to do. Yeah, it's always interesting that you know the background of things of what people see in you. So you know, the original question is how my dad kind of influenced that he's he's on a whole different level than I am. So he's a nationally known figure. He commands meetings. He's up there. But where he saw himself and me is that he never sought out the spotlight that that's me completely. I don't see you got the spotlight, but you don't have to be a leader. You don't have to have that to be a leader. I meant to say. So when you're leading and when you're commanding a room, it doesn't you don't have to be the loudest voice in the room. You don't have to be the one that consumes all the attention. And so that's one of the lessons that he gave to me really early on is going to be comfortable in your skin. But you can still grow. So find the niche that works for you to continue to evolve and continue to just grow professionally and grows a person. But don't ever kind of take it too far away from who you are. You've been thank you. Thank you for that. And thank you for kind of describing yourself. I think we are and not to the labor of the point, but you know, when we think when I think about young people and advising them and helping because I do help young people with through that college application process. But I think so often we get enamored by like a big fancy school, so a large state school like you said Penn State, Penn States. Well, we're not going to be able to get into the world around school, but it's a big it is a big school. Incredible alumni base, right, but we become so enamored with names and with the size, you know, in Texas its UT or Texas a and M. And they these these campuses are like cities, you know, and. If you have the students to get overwhelmed to get lost to feel like like they just can't find their way. So I appreciate you talking about like one that your father was kind of into your own personality. And just connecting to a university to a school like that that kind of fit who you were. Yeah, yeah, and some of the bigger schools too can. things that the small schools can't. And you have to kind of really weigh that with your personality. So, you know, I had a girlfriend at the time, we went to another state school and they were bigger and they would get lobster once a semester. And we were like, wait, what? You know, because we weren't getting that. I'll tell you that. We, they were under renovations when I was there, we were under a tent for a while, eating at a cafeteria. So like, yeah, there are some things that the fancy schools can entice you with, even just having a football program or different facilities and things like that. And being in a small school, they couldn't do that. And I'm glad, you know, my father's influence and glad I listened to like the other benefits that weren't so apparent that really fit with what you want to do, who you were and kind of how you wanted to grow. So, yeah, I mean, not to knock the state schools out and big schools out, they're perfectly fine for a lot of folks, but just for me, you know, it wasn't the right fit at that time in my life. Ben, let me, let me ask you to speak to a little bit more about that, right? Because, because right there, the large schools can lure you, we'll try to lure you away with all kinds of bells and whistles. But what would you say are the benefits of getting going and studying at a small school? Yeah, it's really the intimate nature of it. So, both from the, you know, the academic side of working with your professors, getting to know them, then getting to know you and working with you, but then also just the personal side and the social side of getting to know your classmates and the people that are going to school with you and just having a tighter network. So, yeah, it's really just that intimacy, I think, which you can still get at a big school to agree with, it's different. And then also for me is that a lot of schools, you know, they'll differ on living on campus versus off campus versus commuting and all those iterations and how they factor in. St. Mary's was a school that everybody lived on campus for the most part. And it, you know, through your senior year. So, it wasn't just freshman dorm housing and then you moved off and found an apartment. It was in the middle of nowhere. So, they built townhouses that you just kind of, you know, graduated into as you got older, you got a better place to live. Oh, I love that. I love that. Sounds like a great school. So, after college, you said you became a teacher, but you said that didn't last long. Tell me about that experience. What happened there? Yeah, I mean, it's a God bless all the teachers out there. You do a wonderful job. It was not my career path for me. I learned a ton out what I was doing it. But really came down to classroom management and being so young in my career that age gap, which was really tiny at the time and just also being a young professional, if so much to learn. It didn't work out at a state two years teaching high school civics and wrote history. And I learned a ton there and it was my springboard into other things. But the workload of the teachers tough. It is incredibly difficult with things that you have to deal with because you go in, you know, with this idealistic scenario of I'm going to inspire every kid and they're going to love the subject that I'm teaching and they're going to want to grow up and be history teachers too. And you know, that's not the way it's going to work out and for most people and not all people. But you do have that kind of idea that they're going to love coming to your classroom. And so, like I would, I would always try to instill at the beginning of my classes. I would start off with everyone. It's a great day for civics or it's a great day to learn about world history and just kind of set off the meeting or the class experience that way. But kids are kids. They do, you know, kids things. Not everybody's interested in your subject and the classroom management side of it. You know, got to weigh on the after a while. And even just when you're first teaching a subject, the group, the planning for it, the grading takes a lot longer than it will. You're third, fourth, fifth year down the line. So that initial kind of ramp up, ramping up and being a teacher is difficult for everybody. But I learned early on that this is probably not where I want to be for my whole career. And I used it as a pivot point. So once I decided to leave teaching, I still loved education. I still loved history. I decided, well, what can I do with that? I found an online curriculum company just when you learning, started to take off. And I started writing the history lessons and writing the civics lessons and doing all that. So still the education portion of it, being able to do that, but without the classroom management. So that was my next pivot in my career that I took. You thank you for sharing that. And you know, I'd like to explore that space. And stepping into that space because I think you're writing curriculum, and you're doing some curriculum writing, I'm sure as a high school teacher, as a teacher, before we go there, one question that I have that as a professional, and I think this is regardless of the kind of field you get into, when did you realize, you know what, maybe I need to pivot. Yeah, there wasn't like a single moment, but I think when you, you know, when other aspects of your life start to not be as good as they can be, is when you start to realize my professional role needs to change. So if you're not sleeping as much, if you're stressed out on the weekends, if you don't have the time to do other things that you want to do that fill your cup up, you know, being an introvert, you need that time to recharge and to do the other things. Yeah, that that became apparent to me now pretty quickly. And then I gave it the first year, I said, I'll try again the second year and see if, you know, I fine tune some things or it's easier because I have some lesson plans to at least base my curriculum off of. And I gave it another try and, you know, it worked out the way it did. I decide this isn't for me, but I think that's it's a common thing for a lot of folks. When you start to see the satisfaction with the job, you know, everybody's jobs are not perfect all the time, but when you start to see it impact other aspects of your life, that's when you decide a pivot's needed and changes needed. Yeah, thank you for pointing that out because I think sometimes we kind of, we, you know, and I don't know that this was a case for you, but I've heard from other guests where, you know, they find themselves in a career in a field and maybe things aren't going well, they're experiencing exactly just what you described, but are reluctant to pivot or are reluctant to leave because, you know, the fear that I might not find another job, I might not lend them my feet, who knows how long it'll be. When you decided to transition out and you take this role right in curriculum, how much was there much of a gap? No, I was fortunate. So I made the decision probably in the winter semester of my last year and started looking for jobs and found one that lined up for the June July period, right when teaching would end. So I was very lucky in that sense, but yes, it's that that that factor is insurvinously, especially at the point of your career that you're in. So early career folks, you probably have more entry-level jobs or more more opportunities to find the next thing, but somebody older, you know, not older, but more experienced, more seasoned in their career, that might be at a different pay level or different just opportunity. It is harder, you know, there's not as many jobs at whatever level you want, the further up you get in your career. So that certainly comes in play, family comes into play too, like at the time when I switched teaching, it was just me, I was best, right? And I have to worry about providing for folks, you know, if I had to eat ramen noodles every night, so be it. But today I have a family, I have wife, I have a daughter, you know, like there's there's costs that come with pivoting and changing and yet you recognize that as your career goes on, like there's other things that are bigger than you that you have to kind of factor into that redecision that you make. So Ben, are you telling me that you couldn't go and eat ramen noodles every night now? Your body changes too as you get older, so it doesn't accept the things that you once put in it. So yeah, ramen noodles every night for me are probably not good. I don't think my primary career would say it's good for my blood pressure either. Yeah, yeah, I don't think so. So how much time did you spend writing curriculum? That was about six years and that leads to the kind of the next pivot point in my career. I really enjoyed it. I loved getting and writing the lessons coming up with like interesting angles that from my classroom experience as a teacher, I thought the kids would enjoy as well and a little bit of a different spin on the history lessons or the geography or the cynics or whatever I was producing at the time. And so as I started enjoying this a lot, kind of coupled back with what I talked about earlier of me really diving into subjects when I dove into them, I thought like what is the next iteration of my career and how can I further my studies because I'm enjoying this so much? So I went back to school, got my masters and instructional design, how to an instructional design for folks that I don't know is kind of how to set up learning opportunities for folks to so they can get the most out of it. So you go into a subject area where you are not an expert and probably more often than not, you don't know nothing about it, but you get really intense, learn about it and figure out the best way to teach others about it as quick as possible. And so for me, you know, just wanting, being curious back to the earlier question, being real intense about things, I thought this is the perfect thing for me because I can learn about so many things, it'll give me, you know, personal fulfillment and it's also an income as well. And so that's how I pivoted into instructional design, but I was doing that while I was writing curriculum. So you're writing curriculum, you decided to go back to school because, again, you're getting deep into this stuff, you go into curriculum design and then what came next for you? Lay off. Layed off. So you had a curriculum company, I was not ready to leave at the time that I left, but we got bought out by a bigger competitor and they were based in Minnesota and they gave me the opportunity to either come to Minnesota and, you know, live my life there or find something else. And so, you know, at the time I was engaged and I wasn't leaving Maryland or the DC area and decided to pivot. So I had this instructional design, this master's degree. I had been kind of putting out feelers for a different roles. I knew I needed something else to continue to grow, but that made it go into overdrive. When you don't have an income, you're about to get married, you got to find something. And so I was looking at kind of adult education fields because that was interesting. I wanted to kind of move away from the more K through 12 environment and get into adult ed. And there were a lot of opportunities there. I was very fortunate that when I got noticed I was getting laid off, they gave us about two months or so to figure things out. So it wasn't immediate, you know, pack the box and get out the door and security will escort you on your way out. They did give us a little bit of time to get things together. So I was able to submit resumes, go out there. And in the DC area, what you can do with an instructional design is basically two things, two big things. One is government contractor work. So the defense contractors out there and then the people working for the government, for the federal government, to design education around specific government processes or perimeter, you know, other things like that. And so I had offers in that area. But then in the other area, I had one offer was for an association. And that's how bring us back to Carlos and the other folks that you talked to in the association space. It was for an association for an oncologist. So carrying cancer, treating cancer, very mission based organization to help people and to help doctors be the best that they can be in their field. And so it was a no brainer for me, you know. I could probably enjoy this government contractor work, but as a personal fulfillment type of thing of giving back to the community and giving back to society, it was the association work. And I fell in love with associations after that. So mission based groups that could use my education background that could let me educate, but also serving a bigger purpose. You know, Ben, the in these conversations primarily with folks in Catalos and folks within your network, I have been fascinated by the world of associations. Because I think, you know, and I, it's this is the message that I share with students all the time is, you know, a lot of young people have tunnel vision, right? They've got one idea of something that they're going to do. And, and we convinced kids that they're going to do something for the rest of their lives, which is not true, right? But the association world is something that is was new to me. And in speaking to all of all of my guests has been incredibly fascinating. Because I think there's so many, there's opportunities to fill so many roles and to do so many things within these spaces. So whether it's, you know, often mission driven, right? But also there's this profession development, these professional development opportunities, there are these organizational development. And so tell us about the work that you do. And where did you sort of, how did you carve out a niche in this space? Yeah, yeah, it's a good question. So, you know, taking my previous experience of writing curriculum online and teaching, professional development is a core area of most associations, but to their own, their own B, better than whatever field they're at. So e-learning was still kind of exploding at this point when I joined the association world and people works. So I carved out that niche of professional development, initially e-learning kind of later moved into the live training, but that's really been the area that I focused on is professional development. Whatever association on that had been at three now to help their members be the best that they can be. And so kind of goes back to your question too originally, when did your education journey start? For a lot of folks, one chapter, maybe it's not the start, but one chapter in the professional development and the education journey is when they join an association because you go through school, you get your degree, but things change in the world changes and associations are there to really help train up workforces and educate workforces for that changing environment. So again, for front colleges, it was the latest cancer treatments. Where I'm at right now is the school nutrition association, which covers it's a national association that is for all the school nutrition professionals across the country and the K through 12 environment. So anybody that's serving food within a school environment can be our members invited to be our member and I provide professional development for them because it is a very highly regulated environment. I don't think you'd realize that and being from the outside, I certainly didn't of how much goes into just putting food on students' plates in the watch line and other regulations and rules that they have to go through in order to do that. Wow. Wow. Was it, you know, because the way you described it and that transition, that first transition and working with oncologists and providing that learning did, did you, were you intimidated? Yes. Oh my gosh, yes. You would read, you know, you open up the paper one day and read oncologists so and so finds this treatment or, you know, solving this thing. And the next day, I want to call with them and I can't pronounce half the words that are, you know, the drugs that they're administering or the different things they're doing. So yes, it would be crazy from day to day just some of the interactions that I would have with folks, these world renowned people from Memorial Sloan Kettering and you know, all those types of places that you hear in the news and they would have meetings with me and we would go through an educational course of this is how we're going to design it. And now I'm in my late 20s, early 30s at that point and I'm dictating to them how to do things like these masters of their subject domain. I'm saying this is how you're going to design this course for folks so they can understand it. So it's like, and it's very intimidating, like you said, but also empowering in the moment that you are an expert in your field, even if it's not this gigantic thing oncology, they look to you to be an expert in creating the education. Wow. Wow. The, you know, for a lot of students and not just students, I think even for professional right, we, we hear about imposter syndrome and we hear about being in these spaces stepping into a space and in fact, I had a conversation with some students today about it, but stepping into this space knowing that I can do this, but there is that little bit of doubt. How did you reassure yourself? How did you, you know, what did you tell yourself to kind of that to, to, to find, well, like I said, to maybe to overcome those thoughts. Yeah, it's, there's no one single answer, I would say, but I think it's a process and you have to remind, you have to kind of continually check yourself and remind yourself of what you bring to the table. So going back to those oncologists, for an example, brilliant people, PhDs, they're solving cancer, they're finding lives, treatments, they're doing all this research, but they can't turn on a computer sometimes, or they don't have right in email, you know, like, there are things that you can do really well better than them. And so everybody has their thing that they're not good at. Everybody has something that they could improve upon. And you always have something to offer. You always have that ability to make somebody else better. And, you know, as an educator, I recognize that. And that helped me, you know, see the value because I could always help somebody else out with something. And so, you know, that's one way of getting over a imposter syndrome that I've experienced. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you, Ben, for sharing that perspective. You know, Ben, it sounds like you've found this work incredibly rewarding. And certainly, some space you probably never saw yourself in, you know, looking back and head throughout your journey. If somebody, because these association spaces, like I said, you know, they, they offer, I think so much, it sounds like there's a lot of opportunity for folks to work in these spaces and to contribute in these spaces. Who would you say? Who these spaces, like, who are the ideal candidates for these spaces? In the association world? Yeah, in the association world. What is so as, as like a person working within association? Yeah, within the association. It's, that's a good question too, because it's really anybody. I mean, you've got the professional development folks like me, but every association needs marketing, communications, every, or not every but a lot of associations are heavy in the advocacy field. So lobbying the government, there's business development because although you're a non-profit, you still have to make money and keep the lights on. So there's all sorts of different ways. I think the core thing is going back to that mission-based work. So you're not going to get paid always the best within association world. But if one of your values and one of the things that you want to do is leave, leave work at the end of the day and feel like you've contributed something back, something that's mission-based, something that's bigger than you, that's, that's something that draws in a lot of association folks. But I will say also, you know, aside from working in association, I'll put a little plug in just for being a part of an association. There is an association for everything. So whatever your job is, whatever is listening to this, there is an association for that if you're not, if you don't know it. And personally speaking, I'm an association, so there's an association for associations. I didn't really recognize the value of being a member and being a part of a community that shares experiences that are similar to yours until I really got involved in my own association as a member of that for other association professionals. So I was doing the work. I was being, you know, rising up the ladder and doing all those things to grow professionally. But for me, a really pivotal point in my career is when I decided to start raising my hand and being involved as a member of my own association and getting involved with those folks. And one thing leads to another. It leads to this conversation here today and I met Carlos. We are on a board together. It's called Association Latinos, which tries to advance Hispanics within the association space. He led me to you. There's a whole bunch of other things that happen once you start getting involved. So, you know, from the personal, like professional side of just being an association member, can't plug it enough, whatever your field is, look out for that association because there's people like you that are going through the similar experiences that you are and it really creates a network and a community that you will find hard to replicate if you're just kind of instilled within your own organization. Yeah. It sounds like, would you say, are you still as much an introvert as you were when you were high school student, high school student, college student, or would you say the work now with the association work? I mean, you alluded to it. Do you point it out that being a teacher, getting in front of a classroom of students helps with that? But have you found that you're, I think, you've come out of your shell a little more in this role within the association? Yeah. I mean, it's part of it's by force. You just have to do it if you want to advance, but I'm still very much an introvert after I have a public speaking engagement or big meeting or whatever it is. I'll need that quiet time at home and kind of recharge myself to do all my things. So it's still there, but you grow as a person and you find ways to evolve and public speaking as one of the things I had to do. So yes, I'm still an introvert to answer your question, but I hope I can get up here and fake it a little bit and be interesting on podcasts and other talks as needed. Well, you've got a great story, Ben. I appreciate your time today. So thank you. And thank you for your, I think you're honest to your candidness. For carefully, I think walking us through, but also talking about, I think your own personality and sort of your traits and sort of finding those spaces that not only I think fit the personality, but also allowed you to grow and develop as a, as a professional before we transition out. Right. Another thing that I always ask my guess for is one last piece of advice. So I don't know who the audience is going to be, who you want to tailor this to, but if you wanted to leave our listeners with one last piece of advice, what would that piece of advice be? I don't know, a good question. How many different directions? Could I go in for this, but just continuing along with I guess the thing that we just had would be know your core values. Don't try to do too far from them. Find what works for you and certainly grow and kind of push yourself, but don't try to be something that you're not. So if you're meant for a small school, go to a small school. If you're meant for a day school, do that. If you're an introvert, find the ways to still be successful and still do all the things you need to do without burning yourself out because I've done that too of trying to go too far against my personality traits and it didn't work out in the end. So yeah, just be sure to yourself. Find that continual education journey. It doesn't end with college. It can continue on and just continue to evolve, be bored and then be curious after it. I love that be bored and then be curious. I think that's going to be a quote that'll end up somewhere for the podcast. Ben, thank you again for your time today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, no, it's been a pleasure. One invitation that I would like to share is as I've spoken to more folks within this, the association space, I would love to maybe get a couple of folks together to talk about what it means to be a professional. So whether it's being a part of an association, but even just because I think for one thing that I, a lesson that I think I share with a lot of my students is, we get the messaging about going to college or even learning skills that'll help you be a good employee, good professional. But nobody tells us about what to do in the middle, how to get there. And for a lot of the folks that I do interview, that transition from being the student into the professional is always seems to be a tricky one. And so I'd love to put together, maybe it's a couple of conversations, but a special episode of the podcast, or folks talk about that. Now, what can, you know, what can, can folks do to prepare themselves for that transition post college as they make the transition or maybe even mid-career and they find themselves, you know, recognizing I need a pivot. And well, how do I do that? So I think, I think you've got some wonderful experiences. I think you'd be a great voice to add to that conversation. So I'm going to extend the invitation. You don't have to give me an answer now, but please think about it, okay? I mean, I would love it. Everything you said plus, there's so many points in your career when it's maybe not a pivot, but an evolution or like a jump up. So you go from an individual contributor to a leadership role. And I'm like, oh my gosh, how do I, I was really good doing things on my own, but how do I make other people or, you know, convince other people to do these same things? And move along. So yes, it is a journey. There's so many different points there where that reflection is needed. Awesome. Awesome. Well, Ben, thank you. Thank you very much again. This concludes another episode of the Way to College podcast. Thank you to my guests. Thank you to our listeners and viewers out there. Please remember to subscribe, rate, follow all of that good stuff. And don't forget to share the podcast with one other person. I'd appreciate it. And thanks and we'll see you again soon. Bye-bye.