America’s Next Top Model Cycle 9: Sarah Hartshorne’s Memoir & Interview [REPLAY]

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And this episode came out this summer, actually. But because of all the talk in the air, I've had a couple of requests to do this book. And here is my gift to you. We already covered this book. So for today's episode, we are replaying our recap episode of the entire memoir. And for the first time ever, releasing from behind the paywall, my interview with Sarah Hartshorn, where we dive even deeper into what happened to her on America's Next Top Model. Welcome to Glamorous Trash. This is a podcast that book clubs viral articles, celebrity memoirs, and trashy discourse to elevate your life. I'm your host, Chelsea DeVantes. I'm a TV writer, comedian, filmmaker, author, and sometimes I'm in stuff too. And today, we are book clubbing. You want to be on top? A memoir of makeovers, manipulation, and not becoming America's Next Top Model by Sarah Hartshorn. She was in season nine of America's Next Top Model. She has now written a tell-all play-by-play of what that season was like. I was riveted. The book was just published on July 8th. And we have an entire conversation with Sarah herself about some extra BTS and questions I had for her. It is up right now for subscribers on Patreon and Apple podcast descriptions, so go check that out after the episode. Now, this book has Tyra Banks tea, queer coming out stories, and reality TV tales that are honestly unbelievable. And please know there is a trigger warning for disordered eating and diet culture discussion, so please take care when listening, and let's dive in. My guest today is H. Allen Scott. They are a comedian, writer, and pop culture know-it-all who's never been wrong. Don't fact-check that. They host Newsweek's Parting Shop podcast and Out on the Lanai, a Golden Girls podcast. They've appeared on shows like Jimmy Kimmel, Ellen, and starred in the documentary Latter-day Jew, which follows their journey from being raised Mormon to converting to Judaism, surviving cancer, and celebrating their bar mitzvah. Sorry, that is unbelievable. when is when are you writing a memoir after i had cancer a while back i'm fine i got a lot of offers but i don't know am i i feel like i need to be older i wrote one i know and you're amazing i know i need to do it maybe we'll talk book agents after this i think we should i introduce all my guests who are friends of mine with the story of how we first met wait before you even get to that i'm sorry i'm taking over your podcast can i just say how much i love you and how much i love that you're doing this podcast and you're putting because from the moment we met I have always thought this girl needs like this personality needs to be on everything you are so much fun so I'm just so glad to be with you today but also that you're doing this wow that's how I feel about you and okay so this is my memory of us meeting I don't even know if you'll have the other piece of it I just have an image of being I think it's an audience at the Virgil but I'm standing up and I think we're talking about Golden Girls. Yes, yes. And that's it. And I'm like, how'd we get there? How'd we find each other? I don't know how we got there. I don't know how it found each other, but I know why we connected. Because when I'm in a room like the Virgil, often surrounded by heterosexuals, I immediately go to the girl that's going to understand my Sephora addiction, who's going to understand my Golden Girls background, who maybe is going to take a moment to understand that we need to make fun of the straight men surrounding us. and that is why I immediately went to you because that's just what I do. That's my safe space. That's my trauma reaction in spaces is to immediately, not necessarily always go for the girl, but go for the one that I know immediately is going to be like, we can talk about lip gloss. We can probably talk about politics and probably can talk about someone shitty. You know what? I talk all the time about how my dearest friends came from sharing a lip gloss in a strange space. That must have been us because we were complete strangers And then I just sort of watched you online become an icon. And so I was just looking for a book so I could drag you on this podcast and reconnect. Well, I will always go anywhere you tell me to. I'm a big champion of yours. And I loved, I have to say, this is the type of person that I am because I talk to people for a living. But, like, yes, we got notes. Things are documented. There are things. I wrote over this because I did really enjoy this. but what I also enjoyed about this so much is that it wasn't necessarily like a trash book. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. It was kind of almost like, and this is something that I love about what I do online, what you and I bond over, is the nostalgia for like a different time. You know what I mean? And what Sarah does in this book so, so, so well is that she takes us back to that era of reality television and gives us a glimpse behind the scenes, but also reminds us how fucked up that era was, but how fascinating it was, too. Yes, I think that is so well said, because I went back and rewatched her season for this episode, and I really don't even have words. I was watching it, and I was like, I can't believe this was ever on TV. Like, it is. America's Next Top Model is unbelievable. Like, they should have put everyone in jail every single episode. You know what's crazy is I watched America's Next Top Model very casually back in the day. But it was on in an era when I was a young, poor person trying to exist in the world of comedy in a not great way because of all the straight dudes I previously mentioned. And so I didn't have a lot of money to be able to keep watching America's Next Top Model because I didn't have a television in New York for a long time. So it wasn't a part of necessarily my experience, but my boyfriend and one of my best friends, Naomi, they both bond because they grew up. They are of the generation. They're like 10 years younger than me. Brag. But they grew up on America's Next Top Model, and it is their vocabulary. As soon as I told them I was doing this, they told me every last detail about Sarah, about this season, about literally everything. They know this. What was their take on season nine? Because, you know, the show's been going for a while. at this point, but it has fully peaked and petered out. Yes. They were like, it's fucked up. That era is fucked up. But you can also see that because the show isn't where it was when it started and it became the juggernaut that it was very early on, and I think you see this in watching Sarah's season, you can see the show desperately trying to get back to the relevance that it previously had early on in the early boom, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And they're doing so many stunts. Like, for some reason, they put all the girls on a cruise ship to find the first 10 or whatever. And then they're filming scenes like, this can't go in your luggage and get on the cruise ship. And I've worked on a cruise ship. Like, they have, like. Have you? Yeah, it's pretty intense. But it's, like, there's a lot of international logistics to that. All so that they can just, like, have the gimmick of a cruise ship. And then her season is about, like, environmental, conservative, like, conservatism, pro, you know, try and fight against climate change. but then they're on a cruise ship. On a cruise ship, which is nuts. One of the worst things. And so it makes no sense. You can totally take this out if you need to, but have you watched that documentary about the Missing Amy on Netflix? I watched it last night because Chris DeRosa told me to. Chelsea. Yeah. Okay, so listen, I'm going to plug my own shit. I shot a pilot, an independent pilot this year, about my time working on a cruise ship called Maritime. Can I watch it? Oh, my God. I will link you. And it's called Maritime because people don't realize that when you're on the waters, it's maritime law. Get away with everything. There are no laws. Maritime law means if someone gets murdered, we investigate it if we feel like it. It's quite literally the gay bar like half an hour before last call. Like anything goes. Anything goes. And to keep the crew members happy and to stop us from rioting and to kind of quell all the mobs that run, it's like a constant race war. And that's a joke, but also very serious. They would sell us bottles of wine for a dollar and beers for 25 cents so that like everyone working would just kind of drink their life away. It was like a shooting of the Housewives franchise or something. Like, just get them as drunk as possible and fight, fight, fight. Yes. And these top bottles go on the cruise ship when there's a real cruise going on. And the thing that made me laugh so much is that cruise ships play 24-7 Mambo No. 5 in Who Let the Dogs Out? And they can't get them to turn off the music for filming. I mean, just what a nightmare. What an absolute nightmare. When I was reading that part of the book with the cruise, because I get offered, especially golden girl stuff i get offered cruise stuff a lot and no i don't because it terrifies me i'm worried about dying but i'm more so worried because i'm the type of bitch like after a show a meet and greet situation i won't stick around not because i don't like the people who are in the crowd but because i have intense anxiety so the idea of being stuck on a cruise with people who just saw me perform sometimes in drag sometimes not that's terrifying i don't want to be stuck with anyone uh yeah do absolutely do not go on a cruise and i will say i i was on there when i was 24 and unmedicated and if there's there are a group of people who witnessed me in that state who were like the craziest bitch alive has a job like how did that woman continue her life all day yeah okay so the big thing with sarah and what i loved reading about even when it was painful is that she fluctuates between a size six and a size 12 according to the book and everyone is like you should be a model and she kind of doesn't really have a gauge on what that means for her and also you should be a model is such a ubiquitous phrase and we have a dringo which is where you drink and take one of our memoir bingos because of course we get an exact weight drop on page 17 that is the number one dringo of every book and she said as someone who didn't know if she wanted to be a model who tipped the scales at 160 pounds i had no idea what to say luckily i was given a lot of time to come up with something i sat there for six hours before she goes into the audition and sarah basically is their plus size contestant of this season they always had one It's so, I mean. It's so, I mean, on one hand, here's the thing. On one hand, I'm disgusted by it as a fat person. But on the other hand, I am also, like, very aware of the era and the culture in which we were living in. What year was this? This was, like. This was 2007. So, you know, not that long ago. It's, like, two decades ago. Ground us in time of where we are. Okay, so Obama had given the speech, but he wasn't quite president yet. Yet still, I remember men who rejected me in 2007. Like, that's how fresh it is in my mind. I could probably recite one of the monologues I used to do auditions with. Yes! That's just still right. Yes. Yeah. And yet, when you look back, you're like, whoa, this was brutal, and we were trying to fuck during those times. Yeah. Which I consider coming of age years for us. I mean, it really very much was coming up. I think I was doing, I mean, I was definitely doing stand-up in New York at this time. Desperately trying to, you know, can I be crude here? Can I be crude? Oh, you can extra be crude. Desperately trying to suck a dick after the show. Like, I was doing everything. Oh, my gosh. No wonder we like each other. I know. I was also desperately trying to suck dick. And people just, people are like, yeah, but of course you could, no. No. No. I tried for so many dicks that turned me down. Pun intended, but it was hard. When you're funny, they don't want your funny lips on their dick. They don't like that. I found a niche. It's another episode, but it's Desperate Straight Men. But, but, that was my niche. We'll be back to script that if a producer is listening. We're right here. So, yes, she's basically the plus size contestant. And, listen, it's so hard to determine, like, you know, what's a straight size? What's a plus size? Where are we at with body image? And it's a terrible place. And we were even worse back then. And I think watching this footage back, it's so shocking to see that she was their plus size contestant and she was supposed to be pushing body positivity forward because she just looks so similar to all of the other girls. It really made me think about how Jessica Simpson, when she was in those jeans at like a cook off and we all called her fat and we all did. And I mean, the magazines did and we just read it and said, OK, but reading. in her memoir and looking back at those pictures and realizing she was a size four at the time and that's kind of the feeling i had when i was reading about sarah's season but then watching it on screen we were so disgusting in this era i look back at now because i'm doing a thing on freak your friday and i've been looking back at a lot of the interviews lindsey lowen and stuff and i just i'm just appalled at how oftentimes straight older men would talk to some of these women in pop culture and in that era and how disgusting and blatant and how nowadays hr would fire that person if those questions were asked or put on air or done anything with like they would would they well i mean 2020 maybe 20 yeah maybe maybe i don't know i don't know i don't know i really don't know i would hope so we're lost in the sauce right now we really are is that is and i think that's the other thing that i asked there about in the interview which is that we hear now that reality TV filming conditions are horrible for the people who go on them. Well, if they've gotten better, where they started is horrific. On season nine, she writes this, after a few days after arriving in Puerto Rico, I found myself blindfolded and forbidden to speak on a bus full of other young, sweaty, beautiful girls. There are a lot of moments from my time filming America's Next Top Model that looking back didn't age well, but even at the time, this felt fucking deranged. And basically, they were not allowed to speak to each other unless the cameras were rolling. So they would sit in rooms with each other in silence for sometimes up to 17 hours a day. Okay, this feels like a good time to take a quick break. Things have been wild schedule-wise over here. And I've been starting my day by rolling out of bed. And then the one thing I do before I leave the house is I slick them brows back. And then I use Thrive's Brilliant Eye Brightener. I just kind of roll it all around my eyes. It's an eyeshadow, but it's a highlighter. 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For a limited time, save 25% on your first month at ritual.com slash glamorous. That's ritual.com slash glamorous for 25% off your first month. Okay, let's dive back into the episode. Chelsea, I watch a lot of documentaries and made-for-television movies, often starring Mira Sorvino, about human trafficking. and this is what this sounds like. It sounds like an episode from a Mira Servino Lifetime television movie about human trafficking. Yeah, and they keep them awake because you might film. There's multiple accounts where she's like, can I go to the bathroom? You feel sad because it's some young PA who's working for the corporation. They're like, don't let them go pee. And then some young PA is like, I'm sorry, you can't go pee. You cannot speak. Also, they would sometimes give them their iPods and they had to beg to get their book, like to get a book to read. So they would just be sitting there doing nothing. It sounds like some producer saw George Bush's, like, torture during the Iraq war stuff and was like, you know what? Not all bad ideas. Yeah. This could be good. Yeah. Okay, I have to ask you about this. So they take a psych evaluation, which we all know they do for all the shows. Have you had to do this? I've had to do this. Okay, so here's my question for you. She wrote some of the questions down. Like, they were asking her, like, do you think people are trying to get you to change your mind? How many people in the world do you think cheat on their taxes? Things like that. I was asked that exact last question on my application at Target. I am not joking. I had to take a Target. Wow. So, basically, like, when you applied to work at Target, and this was, I don't know, when I was, like, 18. God, I wanted to work at Target so badly. Okay, I didn't get a call back. And you went to their digital screens, right? And you have to take this like 20 question test before Target will like let you work there. And I now realize that on questions where I would say like how many people cheat on their taxes, when I wrote probably everybody, that was an indicator that I would cheat their rules. Yeah. And you had to press the button that says no one cheats or like only a little bit so that you don't believe in breaking rules. Insane. Insane. So that's just what I had to do for Target. and a longer version is what she had to do for America's Next Top Model. What was your test like? It was similar. I mean, I won't say what it was for because, wink. But you can tell, because, like, I'm older and I've been around the block and I talk to people for a living. And so when I was in the situation talking with this psych person, here I am in the back of my head thinking, you're being paid by a production company to ask these like you're yeah you're part you're essentially a producer here interviewing me for this and so these questions and my responses and so like i'm in my head because of that i'm trying to think of like what a i mean how old was sarah when she did this 20 something like 20 yeah she's like 20 years old yeah 20 years old 20 year olds not going to know that answering these questions so they're just going to answer any flipping way that they want whereas me i'm you know 23 but yet older like older than sarah answering these questions i'm smarter i'm knowing where where these things are going and it's just i wouldn't say it's manipulative because it is a part of the process but i also fully understand that it is not an actual logistical psychological evaluation it is quite literally a producer gauging information to see if you could do X, Y, Z. That's what it is. I would say it is manipulative because the psych eval makes you think like, they're making sure I am mentally sane to go through this process of sleep deprivation as I try and model for two months. But they're not. They're trying to see how you're going to act on camera. And she had a really funny answer. She wrote that she answers like, yes, I believe people are trying to control our minds and the way we think all the time. Yeah. And they're like, why did you answer that? And she's like, but isn't that what you're trying to do on this show? And they're like, yeah. Well, I mean, she writes later on. This is a quote that really just stuck out to me when I was reading this, and it fits here. She was like, going on a reality show is like throwing a hot stone into an already boiling cauldron of soup. I was more visible than ever, but I was also losing huge swaths of my personality. Like, it's so wild to think that even through these little questionnaires and stuff, you lose your personality and you start getting in your head about, well, what is my personality? Who actually am I? And when you have producers telling you, you're going to be this one, you're going to be this one, that you would listen. This actually segues wonderfully into something horrific, which is that they narrow everyone down into, like, the girls who are actually really going to appear in the competition. And the other plus size contestant gets sent home and Sarah stays. And then they bring them into a room where they have a producer for hours at a time saying things like this. America's next top model is sitting inside this room, they said. Really think about that. Look around. This is your competition. You are the select few. Does anyone know how many girls tried out for the show? A lot. Thousands and thousands. Ten thousand in Boston alone. And they keep going and they keep going and they keep going. And then they said, this experience can only be what you make of it. Suddenly their tones and demeanor shifted. They had been serious and kind and now there was something else in the air. One of them stepped out of the line they'd been in. That information is worth more than you know. If you do anything to put that information at risk, we will sue you for $5 million. And then he said, yeah, but if you're thinking, I don't have $5 million. We know you don't. We know about all of your financial information. None of you have $5 million. None of your families have $5 million. What you need to understand is that we won't just sue you. We'll sue your entire family. And I don't just mean your parents. We'll sue your kids. And by that, I mean your future kids. We'll sue your children. We'll sue your children's children. We'll sue your children's children's children. What is this, North Korea? Yeah, I mean, like, and for hours at a time, they say that to them to get them to listen. So no bathroom, no phones, do what we say, or we'll sue you, or we'll sue you. Like, don't speak out. Don't ask for things. The crazy thing is, all of these, I'm going to call them kids, all of these kids are 18, 19, 20, 21. Maybe some are in their mid-20s. Maybe. Yeah. None of them. Now, if you and I at our age now, 28, were in that room, yeah, like we would probably be like, go ahead and try. Go ahead and try to sue me for this or go ahead and like, you're not going to get you're not going to sue me for five million. No court's going to even like hear that case. That's ridiculous. That's absurd. And yet we know this because of our lived experiences to think that a literal I mean, she's an adult. Sure. But a kid is listening to this. That would be terrifying. terrifying also listen i won't go into detail another episode but i did sign a legal document when i was 27 years old and i was given just a lawyer on the phone being like this is probably a good idea and i was like well gotta listen to authority like and they were like it's for your safety sign it don't understand it you can't comprehend it like i was 20 fucking seven and which is crazy because i'm 23 now yeah but um looking back on that it is so painful to even see bad decisions I made as a full adult. And she's in college. We're always being taken advantage of. I was just taken advantage of by a health insurance company. So like we're all like at any age you are suspect to being taken advantage of because these companies and these people know that this is not your world and it probably causes you a lot of anxiety to do these things or X, Y, Z, or you probably have ambition. So you want to do a thing and you think, well, I'll just suffer through it if it's going to get me to this place that I need to be or if I need to do this thing and they really prey on that oh yeah especially it's like listen have i saved a meme that's like know your worth sure but when you show up for a job and they're like if you don't sign this there's 5 000 brunettes behind you you're like that i guess i got to i guess my worth is one dollar and i will be there tomorrow at 6 a.m yes and now what's so fascinating about i kept thinking this while reading reading sarah's book is that you know when she left the show social media wasn't really a thing. It wasn't a thing that nowadays, these reality TV stars, I'm friends with many of them, I talk with many of them from Drag Race to Survivor to my boyfriend was on Project Runway, like all these shows, like nowadays these people leave these shows and they try to maintain that celebrity by continuing it on social media in some capacity, try to profit off of it for years and now there are even shows created to profit off of the desperation of old reality stars called traitors that then these people wait what are you going to say traitors these people everyone on traitors does not need to exist in reality in our worlds at all that is all desperate and I talk to them and I probably now will never ever speak with another traitor again but they all are desperate fame whores looking to maintain a relevancy and that is all fueled by social media well and also I would say it's like fame whore in the way of like what what else are like when you put your job application down and you're like my work experience is three reality shows yeah mid-2000s like they who that they didn't get paid for they were abused for all these things yeah make your buck on social love island stars it's not like they make money on love islands they make money getting off love island and selling Cheez-Its if they're lucky. So, all right. It just blows me away that, like, you know, we're casting regular people on Survivor who, because they have interesting stories or whatever it is, I don't need them to be social media stars after that. I don't need that. Go back and be the mom. Go back and be the executive. I would say with Survivor, I think that's true. Like, have you seen a Survivor social media star emerge in the past? Unless they're on Traders. Like, no. Yeah. I would say that's not so much a pipeline the way maybe Love is Blind is. Yeah. Or even Drag Race or any of those shows. There's an entertaining element to it. You are an entertainer. So, of course, that makes sense that you would go off and do those things. Right. Which is why I still love Survivor. I know. Me too. We should talk about that someday. Oh, my God. I can't wait for the new seasons. Okay. So, Tyra shows up on the cruise ship, right? So, they've been operating. They haven't seen Tyra. But Tyra is an icon to all of them and especially to Sarah. She's like, here we are, ladies, Tyra said, the top 20 baddest chicks in the bunch. But, of course, there can only be 13. 13 girls who will become Cinderella stories. They'll go from everyday girls in their hometowns to girls that everyone in America will know their name. Okay, so then she starts naming names, and Mila goes first, and she strides forward, and she hugs Tyra, and she cries, and she writes this. Tyra looked at someone off camera and shook her head. No more hugs, they yelled. And then when she called my name, I started like a horse and yelled, Nuh-uh, as I carefully walked across the platform toward Tyra. I looked in her eyes and thought, God, I can't wait to go to sleep. And so, now we get into the Tyra stuff, which is... What is it about Tyra that makes her the Katy Perry of reality television Like she so unfortunate She so she massive She massively famous Like internationally known Like, legitimately. And she did some great things. But also, why is she so cringe? That is such an apt comparison, too. Because Katy really had a moment where the love was genuine. Yeah. You know, the whipped cream titties was like, keep Katy. Uh-huh. She was ready to roar. Yeah. And, like, I kissed a girl. no one really realized that was bad or problematic in any capacity yeah but that's tyra tyra's out there being like i am making a difference and for years for like a handful of years people didn't realize like actually i think you're you're forcing something really bad young white women to wear blackface okay so i found that out when i was instagramming this book on the trash podcast instagram did you know she forced models to do blackface in two different episodes years apart? Yep. Okay, so this was news to me, and I told my husband this. I was like, did you know she had bottles of a black face? And he was like, husband I love. Oh my god. Let's both marry him, and then I'll also marry your boyfriend. I was like, hey, did you know this? And he was like, let me see the photos. Like, there's no way. And I showed him the photos, and he audibly yelped. He was like... Wait. There was one season, I forget which one now, the names, all of it, but there was one season where a girl lost a family member or a good friend to a drug addiction, and then the photo shoot that day, she had to pretend that she was dying of a drug overdose. No. That was the aesthetic for the photo shoot. And she had just lost her friend to a drug overdose. I mean, it wasn't in the book, but when I'm, maybe it was. I'm rewatching the episode, and there was a girl who works as a bikini wax artist, and Tyra is interviewing her to be a model. Tyra gets up on all fours on the folding table that the judges sit behind in a dress. And the girl comes and mimes giving Tyra a bikini wax, including the like spread your ass cheeks part. And there's something so potent, like that Tyra was like the crazy kooky girl. But then you're like, wait. And then she's like, oh, she got my vajayjay. Oh, my God. OK, this feels like a good time to take a quick break. okay let's dive back into the episode tyra i'm dying to meet her someday just so that i can experience a little bit of whatever the chaos that you know even when because she lost a home one of her homes during the wild virus here in oh i didn't know that okay here's the thing she lives primarily in australia from what i understand like she's like mainly there i think maybe because of family or she shoots something there i don't know what it is and so when she was on television it was this weird dance of like i'm going to talk about how i'm relevant in this situation but yet experienced very little loss because i don't live there it was and i have multiple and i have multiple homes and it was this weird dance and i was just like i want to be as like i listen as a gay homosexual who loves complicated people i love a delusional middle-aged woman i love them that said that said tyra she's on another level. She couldn't even be a housewife. Whoa! She couldn't. You're right. That is a statement and I will co-sign it. And we're going to get into some really nuanced incredible Tyra thought at the end of this book that Sarah wrote, but I'm going to co-sign that sentiment because do you remember when she was a host of Dancing with the Stars for one season? Yes. And she could not do it. And it was incredible because she was reading off a teleprompter, but her eyes were like bouncing to the moon and back like it's like dancing with the stars couldn't contain her desires and what what that proved that season of dancing with the stars proved is that she is so incredibly scripted that even the kooky things are all workshopped in advance everything is so i mean down to i think back to her if you've ever if you ever want to see the most uncomfortable interview of your life google tyra banks and naomi campbell on the tyra bank show the talk show because tyra banks would talk for years about their beef and how she thought Naomi hated her and Naomi Campbell comes on it's so I it makes you love Naomi Campbell but it also makes you be like oh what does Naomi say Naomi Naomi's just sort of like oh I didn't know you were upset I don't know why I remember this because I was so new and young you said I have to ask you something do they try to make you look like me right and I said um I don't know about so much now but in LA yeah they really did with a little short black whiz. I think I remember that. You told me that. Yeah, I remember. And Naomi, you got up, pushed me away, and said, yeah, I thought so. And you turned. I did. You went from the sweetest woman that was giving me vitamins to someone that terrified me on that trip. Oh, my God. And I... Understandable. I can understand. I was told on that trip that I was sent home because you don't want me there anymore. No, that's not true. That's what I was told. I don't have the power than a winter. Brutal. Okay, we're going to put a pin in it. Yes. We're going to come back to it later First, Sarah gets into the house, and I need to read some of the house rules. Please. Rules. I was obsessed with the house rules. The house rules are incredible. Okay. Every morning before we did anything else, we were to get mic'd. It absolutely had to be the first thing we did before coffee, before a shower, and certainly before speaking to anyone. If we woke up in the middle of the night and wanted to walk around, we didn't have to get mic'd. But if anyone else woke up, we did, and even if we didn't talk to each other. If there were two of us awake, we had to be mic'd. We were never to look directly into the camera except for the confessional or talk to the camera operators. We shouldn't acknowledge them at all, even if they came rushing up to us, which they would do a lot. This was my favorite. We had to spend five minutes a day in the confessional. We didn't have to say anything, and we could go in with other people, but we all had to have been in the room for five minutes every day before any of us could go to bed. She would sometimes go into the confessional with a book and just read for five minutes, and then the last rule was the girls should consider showering together, you know, for the environment, the theme of the season. Yeah. Yeah. And in the shower and in the toilets, they couldn't film, but they could film them anywhere else in the bathroom if there was one more person in the bathroom. Yeah. I mean, you know, here's the thing, and I don't want to, like, completely rag on the show because reading Sarah's book, one of the things that does stand out to me, again as I said like having known all these people on these other franchises these other reality shows there are many truths that still happen to this day on shows like Survivor that Sarah writes about like this this is oftentimes things like the bathroom thing that is sometimes standard practice on there are very detailed rules about how those things are filmed but like it has and of course we've become more understanding about the psychological needs of contestants and sort of there is a more of an awareness about that that there was not when Sarah was on television yeah But like a lot of these rules that the house rules and stuff still stand today. Which is, so it's like it's gotten minusculely better, which is so tough because when you're reading this, Sarah is citing quotes from books like Cultish to explain how cults begin and how they were all conditioned very quickly. Okay, then there's my favorite cameo crossover ever. raja the future winner of season three of rupaul's drag race was the head makeup artist and they introduced themselves and got to work on my face raja was the most beautiful person i'd ever seen tall and lean with gleaming skin and long dark shining hair i asked them about themselves and so excited to learn they were a drag queen so raja does all the makeup for america's next top model for years and years and years and years then finally gets to go on rupaul's drag race and when. Yeah, and I will say, Raja, while she was on America's Next, this little drag history, while she was on America's Next Top Model, and years before she was on Drag Race, she had already been a pretty iconic local Los Angeles girl. Like, she had been doing drag for a minute, and it wasn't like she just sort of like went on to do Drag Race. No, she had been an institution in Los Angeles with Delta Work and a few other queens in LA. So, like, she was well-respected, both in makeup circles fashion circles but drag circles for a long time because i remember that season they were like oh my god mother is here and like how can we compete against raja but it's also incredible just knowing that that was the america's next top model yeah head of makeup department yeah it's like unbelievable it's so and i love that she spoke kindly of of raja too because raja is just like is just is great it's just sweetheart yeah truly oh i love that crossover well they get into the house and sarah i love sarah so production is like we're gonna give you body issues as a theme like your storyline is like feeling bad about your body yeah which is it's so wild because like their whole thing they were trying to i think i think she later figures out they were trying to get her to be a plus size advocate and i only found this out because i interviewed her so listen to that but they're trying to get her to give a body positivity speech yeah but what she said was like this is 2007 i didn't know the words they wanted yeah like we hadn't started that movement i'd only been taught to hate myself also like i mean i'm sorry when i do my stand-up whenever i do drag or my performances or whatever i'll make jokes about my body a lot of times you know what i mean because i can own my own jokes and people sometimes would be like oh don't you know they want to put the plus size language on me and i'm just like i can call myself fat and make fun of myself and do all the things i want to myself and you can either accept it or not but like don't put this, I'm not an activist for anybody. I will talk about my fat ass whenever I want, however I want, and I don't need to be the leader of your parade. I'm sorry. Listen, that's how I feel about the words bitch, slut, whore, and cunt. Yeah. I'll use them as I please. And I also think something got twisted in culture in the past decade where while intending to reshape culture and make it really positive and have positive intentions, which absolutely, we sort of put all this meaning onto words that sometimes no longer existed. You know, in the sense of, like, we can reclaim the word bitch if you want. And if you don't, you should not. Same with what you're saying with body. Like, what empowers you? Well, the really cool thing about Sarah is that she will not give them the storyline they want of empowerment because she's like, I don't know how. Made me love her. Me too. But she also won't give them her inner monologue of how insecure she does feel. So almost every time they try and be like, did you feel so much bigger up there? Like, were you insecure because, like, your body is huge and theirs is not like horrible questions? Like the makeover bit after the makeover, like what they did to her and her body, like the questions that came over. I forget exactly what it was, but they cut her hair short, if I remember correctly. And the producers would always ask her questions. Does it make you look more masculine? Do you feel like it'll make, it'll show off your curves more? Does that make you insecure? Whatever the questions were. And it's just sort of, and she's just sort of like, no, I've always wanted short hair. I think I look cute with short. Like, literally, she's just, like, happy about her hair. And she's genuinely happy. And they're, like, they're upset. You can tell they tried to give her that haircut to, like, ruin her life or something. And then when they bring up the body image thing, she's like, they're like, oh, does it make you feel like you look fat or whatever? And she was like, well, it didn't before, but it does now. Like, they're just, like, getting into her head about it. which is partly their job, but at the same time, you don't need to do it like that. This is America's Next Top Model. She's in her head. Like, everyone's in their head. Like, it's a looks-based show. And, yeah, so she would start, for some reason, she knows a crazy amount of ocean marina life facts. And so whenever the questions got too intense, she would start telling them, like, facts about sharks, facts about, like, octopuses. And, like, they would be like, what? And she would just keep going, which is genius for 20 years old. Okay, quick little Tyra tangent, even though we're going to come to a big thing at the end. You need a sound effect for the Tyra tangent. Oh, my God. Okay, I know producer Christina's on it. I was rooting for you. We were all rooting for you. Okay. As always, Tyra was perfectly made up and had her on-camera face on, composed and hiding any inkling of how she was really feeling. I'd known performers who could turn it on like her, but I'd never met someone who never seemed to turn it off. I couldn't see any chinks in her armor, no matter how long I looked. Here's the thing, and I got that. I remember she picked up, but they said similar things about that throughout the book. I actually respect someone who is just on. RuPaul's like that, you know, Jeff Probst is kind of like that in a lot of situations that I've experienced, but also from stories I've heard. Like, I kind of respect that from someone who is getting paid that much to be the face of a show that is that big. It's sort of like you want to be on all the time because you know every moment is a possible moment for the show. You know what I mean? That's a great point. And those were two not only great examples of what you're saying, but two of our best reality TV show hosts. Yep. Which is saying something, you know, because not all hosts are good. And so, yeah, it's that hyper performative thing. And I've also heard about Rue that, like, when they're off, they're off. Like, they'll never see you because I imagine Rue has to, like, turn so off that, like, no one can come near them. Well, there's the video of, I think, DragCon one year where Rue didn't know Jinx Monsoon's name and Jinx was standing right next to her. And it's sort of like, this is a person who's won your show twice, who is, like, one of the most famous drag queens that has ever come from RuPaul's Drag Race. And you don't know her name? Okay, but I got to tell you, Rue has probably met 400,000 queens in their life. I can see me doing that with, like, my best friend in the wrong place at times. I was literally just in drag of the show, Not Wrong, and I saw a good friend of mine. I didn't recognize them at all because they, like, were wearing a hat or something. So maybe, I've heard Brad Pitt has face blindness. I think I might have it, too. Listen, we could all be suffering. Yeah. so a couple of stories i mean they're throughout the book the book is great it really begins with auditioning and it ends with getting off the show like it is a scene by scene but overall nigel is always brought up to her as like oh he's so hot don't you want to fuck nigel like don't you have a crush on nigel to the point where she's like am i supposed to fuck nigel she's like and his family would always be there and like they were just always pushed like everyone's in love with nigel and the rumor was that he slept with a model every season even though she never saw whatever of it. I will say, Nigel could hit it. Okay, so we should have been asking any of those questions. Don't you have a crush on Nigel? I mean, Nigel, have you seen some of his recent posts? No. God. Oh, how's he doing? He's working out. He's like doing, like, yeah, he's like working out and stuff. Okay. I mean, he's hot. For a dude, like, I always wanted him to be gay, but he's not. He's not gay at all. And yet he does have the sensibility that he'd let you stare in the locker room. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. That's his community service. This is art. My body's art. This is for you. Well, that is what she said it was like on America's Next Top Model. But I guess Sarah didn't share your taste. So she was always like, I guess he's fine. And they were like, are you crazy? Now I want to know Sarah's type. I know. Now, someone who I didn't see this coming, maybe it's because I'm not plugged in. But Mr. J, which very different from Miss J, everyone. Mr. J is like the platinum blonde guy. Fucking hated working there. Hated all the models. Hated life. And was rude and horrible to everyone. What did you think of the Mr. J part? Well, because I shared the sentiment. I remember seeing Mr. J all over my neighborhood in New York when I was working in Chelsea for years. And I would always see him. And he was always just such like a sour. like he just has that energy of just being a little bitch and he and sarah basically confirmed that mr j is basically a little bitch yeah yeah that he was like petty and an asshole and rude and like didn't want to be filming and i'm so sorry but mr j like did you have something else to do what were you doing you were doing like the third hour of the today show yeah like get it together So whatever. So I talked to her a little bit about Mr. J. But then this is actually one of the most beautiful parts of the book. Sarah wrote this. So they're all in the house, but they can remember they can only talk if there's a camera there. This is 2007. Yes. In rare moments of clarity, I found myself wondering if maybe after everything I was a lesbian. But I had to admit I was also attracted to men. I was still in deep denial about there being a third option. Even when I kissed a waitress outside the diner she worked at, even when I went home with her and found myself present for the very first time, which meant being open and vulnerable in a way I never had before. Afterward, I snapped shut like a spring-loaded clamshell, hard, angry, and cruel. And then she goes into the house, and she's sitting in a group, and she said, suddenly, without any warning to her or honestly myself, I found myself saying, did you hear that Lisa is bi? Oh, said Jenna, so am I. My mouth was dry and my mind was spinning as I did my best not to show it. You are? Like you are? Like you have? I was sputtering. Like I have been with men and I have been with women. Yes, she said, patient but a little confused by my reaction. When you were with women, was it for real or for sex? She looked at me, unsure how to answer. For real? I mean, we had sex but also like we dated. Huh, I said. I am too. But I never dated a woman, just been, you know, with them, like for sex. I wanted to, though. I felt like a kid who'd just gotten away with something. Suddenly, it all seemed so obvious I was bisexual. I looked nervously at the man holding a camera about six feet away had I just come out of the closet on national fucking television. Wild. Wild. I mean... And the wilder is that multiple women on the show were discussing being bi, queer, or lesbian, and none of it was aired. Yeah. Yeah. I mean... They wanted to hide it. Yes, exactly. Of course they did. I mean, I will say, you know, if this came out in 2007, Newsweek had invented bisexuality only in 1995 when that cover came out where they talked about bisexuality. So, like, you know. Wait, wait. Say more. You need to say more on that. Yeah. There's a Newsweek cover from 1995 that always every single year. It actually just recently had the anniversary. Every single year on July 17th, bisexuals across the world celebrate the invention of bisexuality because there was a cover of Newsweek that said not gay, not straight, something in between or whatever it is. And it was like bisexuality. It was really big on the cover. Google it. But I will say I do love when people can realize their sexuality. I came out of the vagina with the purse in hand. So, like, I have never. Purse comes first. Purse comes first. Purse first. Purse first. So I have never had to have the moment where I was like, am I gay? Because I was always trying to see the dick. So I, yeah, I don't, I really respect this moment for her. Well, the other person we have to discuss from this book is, honestly, it shocks me. The biggest bitch of them all, the judge who was the worst to her, Twiggy. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me, actually. It didn't. Okay, because someone pointed out to me something very smart, which is that Janice Dickinson gets so much heat for what she was like as a judge. She's cool. Yeah, but Twiggy is never talked about as, like, remember when she was a raging mean bitch to all these young women? She probably felt like she was the celebrity on America's Next Top Model of the judges. She probably felt like she was the RuPaul of the panel or whatever it was. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. And I wasn't surprised then by that because it seems like she has an inflated head. Yeah, you're right. And I know reality TV is, like, for show, be heinous, blah, blah, blah. But, like, she would say things to Sarah's face of, like, you look really beautiful in that photograph, which is shocking because in front of me you're quite plain and yicky which is just like girl i'm here i'm not there's no photo shoot there's no lights around me i'm not in the outfit i'm here to be we're here to talk about this photo not about what i'm wearing right now but also inside thought why do you got why you're here to judge the modeling sorry okay so there's a contestant named heather who was on the autism spectrum and that is a huge storyline that she wants to be a but she's on the spectrum which again going back to 2007 like beautiful like bringing this to screen like there's moments where tyra's like really doing it right but then for makeover day they're like we know let's get heather who is on the spectrum to melt down by showing her a cgi image of the makeover we're going to give her where she's wearing a mohawk and then she'll have a mental breakdown which we would like to see on screen and that'll be fun for the show and they reveal like you're getting a mohawk and heather goes great i love it and then tyra's like what she's like okay great and she's like what and then literally they have to cut all of the footage out they're like no just kidding you're keeping your hair it is so have you did you watch this is a tangent but it's important did you watch the last season of um of survivor oh yeah with the girl who was autistic and that storyline and the way they handled it that is how you should handle people who are differently abled in different kinds of ways who have different life experiences that maybe don't align with how other people are abled and as someone who comes from a family someone who i don't have uh well no i do have someone in my family who's autistic but i have a brother with cerebral palsy so i'm very aware of sort of the handicaps that we exist in the world And I just love the way they handled that. I love. Yeah, the last season of Survivor was incredible for many reasons. But that storyline was so beautiful and it was just so authentic. Yeah. And the person who had a stutter, too, that was also very real. And so, listen, I get that we're talking about seasons that were more recent than 2007. But it does seem pretty egregious to be like, we're going to try and punk the girl on the spectrum on purpose. They didn't punk anyone else. It's just, well, yeah, it's horrible. Horrible. Horrible. Okay, so they bring on, or Tyra brings on a body image expert who's like, why don't you guys love yourself? Meanwhile, they're getting $37 a day per diem sometimes, and they have to buy their own food. Yeah. So Sarah ends up in this really tough eating disordered daily routine financially. financially she's like i can afford some beans and some lettuce or like whatever she's eating they bring on this body image expert and sarah's like what the fuck is going on she later finds out it was a dermatologist just a lady who was a dermatologist who wanted you to love your curves is just so almost la i have a doctor here in la who is a bit of a whack and i love him because he'll prescribe anything said it but hey but like it is such an la experience that a show a production company would hire a doctor to talk with someone about body image and it's someone who quite literally gives botox for a living like like like and they're like you don't need training to love yourself just do it yeah it's so there's no skill behind this absurd it's you know whenever sarah brought up the food things in the book and it happens quite often throughout the book i kept thinking that sometimes the food was being used as a ways to like get her they i want to catch her eating on camera or they want to like they want to see her hungry because everyone loves a fat hungry person and like i kept thinking that there was things that they were doing in order to get her to be that fat person and she was not fat but that fat person you know what i mean yeah yeah oh my god you're absolutely right anxiety because i mean i as a fat person sometimes I'm very embarrassed I'll never eat and walk sometimes or I'll never like there are things that I won't do because I am self-conscious of not so much how I view myself eating but how others view me eating and so yeah it's like there's a mind fuck that I have in that experience my boyfriend I go to Disneyland a lot and you would think there it's just sort of like let the rolls out need the churro but there is this mentality of like I don't want this straight dad to see me fucking eating a churro and be like look at that fat faggot look at that fat faggot walking around happy as a clam eating that churro like i don't want i don't i don't i think he's judging me and i just want to see his dad and and i just snorted um yes no you're so right and it's there's so much bullshit i will here i will tell So I've talked about disordered eating on this podcast a lot because I lived through it. But I've recently actually, so probably like five distinct times in my life. Like I can go back to every restaurant I was at where I was across from someone lovely, someone I love who I wanted to have dinner with, who said to me, wow, I love you because you're really not afraid to eat. Oh, my God. And in those, and they mean it as a comp, I think, fuck, I don't know. I think they're trying to say. They're good hearted about it. They're good hearted about it. But, yeah, I really don't believe it was a jab. I think it was an appreciation of, I can't believe you're eating the way maybe I do at home in bed in the dark or something. Like, I can't believe you're doing it in public. Or maybe I'm a disgusting eater and this is something for me to face. I'm not sure. But, like, every time it made me feel so fucking bad. You know, it's like, well, I wasn't feeling bad. You get in your head about it. I can pinpoint my eating shame, sort of, to when I remember a very distinct moment when I was a kid. and I got a second bowl of cereal and my brother said to me, you sure you need that other bowl of cereal? And from that moment, I was so embarrassed. And that to me is like when it started, when the shame started was that moment, when I was like five. Oh my god, my dad said that exact sentence to me but then guess what? He turned out not to be my dad, so we're fine. Okay, so the next thing that happened is that You're a little Mariska Hartigay. Look at you. Okay, the amount of people who sent me that documentary And I said, Ben. She stole your story. Where's your actor? She'll go see this and cry. And I did. I love her. She followed me and I DM'd her and I was just like, I love you so much. I love that so much. Yeah, that's a good ass documentary. We did a little mini episode on it. Okay, so Ebony then begs to go home. She's like, please send me home. Even though she wasn't the model, they were going to be eliminated. She's like, I just want to see my family. I can't do this I need to talk to my friends maybe you fucked up my hair she didn't say that but it's just like I just want to go home I don't want to do this anymore and Tyra is like you whore like she's crying she's like there's nothing I hate more in this world than a fucking quitter shame shame and she's like Ebony get the hell out of here and so they send Ebony away and they have this secret signal where that means fuck this shit and it's like a little hand movement and Ebony leaves and they all do fuck this shit but they're like at least ebony got free yeah we'll come back to that a little bit later i kind of like that they had like it was almost like a norma ray you know union but yet it was like fuck this shit hands they can all like that was the tiny little hand signal that the cameras couldn't catch they were they were unionized by hand signals really and also they were that's the only way they were allowed to speak to each other the cameras in the room yeah so then they go and do a music video shoot for oh my god do you remember the band because it's left my brain It's a band I should know. Oh, I don't remember the band. I don't remember. Every friend makes fun of me because as soon as music enters, I have no idea what's going on. Same. I'm not a music person. You tell me the stand-up that was there, a TV episode that happened. I got you. Music, I'm lost. My love language is someone else sending me a playlist. Because I can't build my own salad and I can't make my own playlist. My boyfriend was just like, you need to get into this K-pop band. I was like, I'm only getting into it if you make me a playlist. I'm done. I'm done. I'm not going to search for it myself. Okay, I will do a pickup and come back in and tell you the band who is Enrique Iglesias. Yeah, I don't know why I called it a band. Don't know why I blacked it out, but I did. And it was definitely a music video for Enrique Iglesias. Okay, so they do a music video shoot for like 24 hours because they're like, we're going to shoot all these models, you know, for the show. But also, if you guys suck, we have a second set of ladies. And then the productions haven't, they don't have enough costumes. They don't have enough makeup. Like, it's just a nightmare. and one of the models passes out and turns blue and can't breathe. Yeah. And Sarah finds her courage because, you know, they've been put into this cult and goes up to a producer and is like, call an ambulance. Like, get her to the hospital. Like, her skin is blue. Yeah. And the producer is like, listen up, little girl. Like, we are not calling the doctor. Like, put an apple in her mouth. She's going to be fine. And Sarah's like, she's dying. Like, she could die. And they're like, we don't care. And no, she won't. Get over it. And then that is the challenge Sarah goes home on. Yeah. No surprise. No surprise there. Yeah. And she's just like, she's in such a fog and a trance that like, she'd been telling herself like, I'm going to make it to the end. But then also sort of like, am I? Well, they hype you up to that too. They hype you up to feel like that as well. Yeah. And so they're like, okay, bye. And she's like, okay, what now? They take her to her room and they like here a trash bag Yes put everything in it because she had been gathering free shit at their challenges that she wanted to take home That made me love Sarah so much because that is so me That is so me. I once opened up a suitcase to go back to school and I had seven different things of toothpaste. Some used, some not. I had been kleptoing toothpaste thinking to myself, just save $2. Can I tell you, can I share a secret? Please. Can I share a secret right now? I was at the Freakier Friday junket doing interviews for my podcast, and I am friendly with Jamie Lee Curtis, and I may have gone into the back room and taken multiple versions of these. Oh, my God. Okay. H. Allen has just held up a Freaky Friday, very nice Tumblr cup. Stanley Cup, yeah, Stanley Cup, and I took many. So Sarah is just, like, in a trance, and with a PA, they're like put all this stuff in a trash bag she's like i got some free makeup i'm putting it in the trash bag and they take her to a hotel well go ahead please i don't know if this happens before or after the hotel but there is a moment where they take her to the grocery store that's you remember this right and i i've never i've never felt this so hard she gets to the grocery store the the handler gives her a grocery cart and told me to get some food and she asks how much and the guy goes or the person goes enough for a week let's say and she's like let's say as if like she doesn't know what's going to happen a week from now like it's sort of like i have enough trouble at costco figuring out navigating my way through that rotisserie chicken line like i don't know what i would do if someone just said yeah get a little something i don't know what i would do also you don't have a kitchen no you well also she doesn't even know she doesn't have a kitchen she doesn't know where she's being taken yeah and they take her to the grocery store and they're like we don't know how where you're going or how long it'll be or what you'll have and they took her to panda express and she's like thank you god and crab rangoon crab rangoon and then oh yeah they said we'll get you whatever you want to eat and she said i couldn't think of any restaurants mcdonald's i asked and they were like how about panda express and so she asked is there a microwave where i'm going i asked the handler yes the handler said i got microwave popcorn and nacho ingredients and you know listen she's 20 and so i would never i just kept thinking heartburn yeah yeah that's tough so she's eliminated and she has a breakdown and she's like i don't even know why i was having a breakdown like i think it's because i didn't sleep but it looks like i'm like devastated to leave the show so much so that they call her a hotel room when she gets in the hotel and they're like hey we have frank for you and she's like who the fuck is frank and they're Like, the sound guy we thought you had a crush on? And she was like, oh. And Frank's like, hey, Sarah, it'll be all right. You're just going to live in a hotel for a while. And she's like, okay. Frank fucking sent her a cameo. Literally, that's what they did for her. They got her a production cameo. As if she cared. She goes into this hotel and she wrote, I collapsed on the bed and slept for 16 hours. When I woke up the first morning, I realized that the handler had taken the room key. I was a very bougie prisoner, and frankly, I didn't care. I would happily stay in there. And one day the handler says, you might have to get a roommate. And she wrote, I choked back the primal scream in my chest and said, I cannot have a roommate. I can't, I can't, I can't. That's my girl. Literally, Tara, in this moment, is everything I would be. I am the friend in the friend group that when I'm done with something, when I won't do something, you know I'm done. I will walk away. I will say no to things. Good for you. You're the boundaries friend. I am very much a boundaries person. When I am done or don't want something, I just say, nope, not for me, and walk away. Well, so Sarah, unfortunately, is not getting any food. No. And she doesn't have the key to her own hotel room. She can't leave. She can't use the phone. But she's just so exhausted and happy to be off the show that she's just living it up for weeks. And then she wrote this. I'm not the only one who ran out of food. When Lisa D'Amato was kept in a hotel after her elimination on cycle five, her handler, quote, was sneaking food for me like granola bars, which is the reason why in the next episode after I got eliminated where Bree thought someone stole her granola bars, it was because a PA went in and stole her granola bars thinking it was productions, but it was hers and brought it to my hotel. So Sarah then learns that other contestants who've been voted off are also at the hotel but like after weeks like she sees someone across about which how twilight zone is that how fucked up they're still not letting them talk to anyone yeah and then she said because i guess the paparazzi was like who's one america's next stop model they would bring decoys to every single event and bring girls who'd been already cast off the show they would bring them to set of like final challenges so that the press wouldn't find out and they got to choose who went to China in this round. I have a question. How much do you think that note that they had, producers had, is all just from Tyra's delusional brain? I don't believe that there are actually paparazzi hunting down, finding out who the next top model is going to be. I don't think there was ever one. There maybe was one photo and Tyra freaked out and that's why that rule became a thing. Yeah, I mean, it's hard for me to go back to 2007 because, again, I was just trying to suck dicks that didn't want me to and it took a lot of time and energy. But, I mean, I remember, wasn't it like Nick Viall on the plane home from The Bachelor was talking to someone, and then someone spoiled the season, and it was huge news. And, I mean, that was like seven years ago. So, maybe. I mean, same thing happened with Drag Race when Raja was crowned. Like, it had gotten leaked or whatever because they shot it there. So, like, people definitely, there definitely was that culture. I get that. But to go to this length and to inflate the value of that photo of this random girl that no one knows about. No, and I don't think the paparazzi on season nine of America's Next Top Model were flying to China. Season nine. To see who was getting out of the production van. No. For the final challenge. However, they would drag contestants around. And this, I mean, I absolutely screamed when I got to this part. I'm going to read it out loud. Mm. Mm. They were literally locked out of their hotel room with a production assistant, staff member, what have you, looking after them. But they weren't even allowed to have the key to their room. They had to stay in their room. It's almost like they were prisoners. One of the decoys was Ebony. After she asked to leave the show because she missed her family, they kept her locked in hotel rooms for almost two months. Quote, we brought Ebony. She wanted to leave the competition. and then we were like, sorry, no, you can't go home, which was torture for her because they brought her to China. Yeah. I mean, and likely they brought her to China because someone was mad of what she did. Like, I guarantee you. Yeah, oh, absolutely. I think they were like, make her pay, like show her what happens when you're a quitter. Yeah. Psychological torture. Insane. I wonder, from your question with this, does Sarah worry about getting a lawsuit? That is the first question I asked her. Oh, yeah? On our bonus exclusive. So tune in if you want to hear it, but I'm going to tell you. Tell me. Okay. So she gets off the show. She brings her trash bag of free makeup swag to all her friends back home. She has no money. She has to go work on the blueberry farm. She doesn't even have gas money. She's living off of, like, change from her couch. She's so poor. She slowly realizes that Salisha has won the season. And then she tries to become a model herself, and she goes to get an agent. and the agent is like, okay, first things first, you need to lose about 30 pounds, he told me. I stared at his round frame. Oh, no, sorry. I know. I want to be a plus size model, I said. Oh, he said confused. I mean, have you thought about just losing 30 pounds? Oh, my God. And then she said, I met with agent after agent and they all said the sum version of the same thing. Come back when your hair is longer, including Wilhelmina. None of them said I was too thin. None of them seemed to care about top model either, except as an explanation for why my hair was too short. One agent put it this way, quote, we want fat, happy girls with fat, happy teeth and hair. I thought back to all of the women in my mom's Newport News catalogs. And this is what kills me because Tyra would do like, models have to blah, blah, blah. You need the short hair to be a real model. And we were all watching being like, this is what models do. She goes to try and be a real model. and they're like, absolutely not, grow your hair out. She has to have a friend buy her hair extensions. Wow. And that's when she starts modeling and getting a lot of work in New York. Because she has long hair. But it's like, so they didn't know shit about the modeling industry. Tyra's full of shit. I mean, in the city. Did you ever go to her ice cream thing on the west side? God. I'm sorry, no. Please remind me. And this is going to be a perfect segue into what she wrote about Tyra. What is the ice cream thing? She had some ice cream. Still, I don't know, some ice cream shop on the west side. I went once. It wasn't that special. Ice cream shop. I know. The chip doesn't seem. And now Tyra's all like, I've gained weight. Look at me. I'm modeling. I'm plus size. I'm this. And it's all just like, no, girl, you're Tyra. And everyone wants to see you be a hot mess. And that's why people have the camera out. Tyra, you're a brand. You're famous. You're famous. Okay. So Sarah writes this at the very end. She's talking to Jenna, who was on the show with her. They'd kept in sporadic touch over the year. And one day, Sarah says, I'm thinking of writing a book about top model. After some back and forth, eventually she let me know that this was a bittersweet conversation for her because, frankly, she was still traumatized by her time on the show. Quote, I think the whole industry needs to be taken down, she said. I told her I'd think about what she said and we'd talk more later. I hung up, taken aback. Had we been on the same show? Did things get worse after I was eliminated? Or had I just gotten lucky and somehow snuck through the reality television gauntlet unscathed? then I started writing I read my own words and was shocked for years I'd been glossing over the details of my own memories even in conversations with my closest friends stories poured out of me onto the page stories I'd never said out loud because some part of me knew that if I did they would become real to do so would force me to see them for what they were deeply impactful and yes even traumatic trauma in the NDA kept everything buried deep down although after all these years I've had a hard time being afraid of the men in suits on that cruise ship. And basically, she would pass on to people the phrases they had told her about her experience because she just learned to say it. I just think that's so impactful. It explains the experience of trauma so well where you're like, I'm fine. And then through some moment, you look at things you've known your entire life and all of a sudden you realize everything is not okay. Yeah, I do love, though, as a writer who I can't even stand reading my own stuff. I've never read anything I wrote and was like, that's good. That's good. To be fair, I think she was like, wait, someone almost died? Yeah, yeah, she probably had an awakening, which is very valid and fair. I'm just saying from a comedic, funny perspective. Oh, yeah. I literally, every time I send anything to an editor, I'm like, I don't give a fuck. Tear it up. Do what you got to do with it. Rewrite it if you want. I don't give a fuck. I'm done. Okay, so here's what she wrote about Tyra. Tyra Banks set out to change the fashion industry, and she did it. It is more inclusive and diverse because of her and her show. Maybe it's naive of me, but I don't think she set out to do harm. I think she set out to create a show that opened a window into the fashion world to audiences at home, where she could mentor models into successful careers. But the show quickly outgrew these noble intentions set aflame by toxic fuel. The very first winner, Adrienne Curry, never received her contract with Revlon. And the winners of fashion and modeling world, they didn't translate to television. And so they had to create higher and higher stakes. And in my case, those stakes did not reflect of the reality of what it was like to be a plus-size model. And then she talks about how it's a deeply toxic industry and a lot of harm happened. And someone says, what would you say to Tyra now? She writes, it's a complicated question. On the one hand, she provided me with one of the biggest opportunities of my life. I owe her a lot. I know that. On the other hand, I lost myself on the show. They broke me down and took advantage of my trauma. It took years of hard work and therapy to find myself again. The biggest thing I had to learn was how to see the world through my own eyes instead of constantly focusing on how the world viewed me to climb down from my dissociated tower. And so I love how complicated she writes about it. And I have a question for you because, you know, we both came up in entertainment. We are in entertainment. And especially in our years when we were and are 23 years old, you enter the industry and they tell you this is going to brutalize you and fuck you up. And especially in my years, like when I was like doing comedy and comedy years, it was like there's a thousand people to replace you. Yes. You know what I mean? Like if you want this, you will go through hell. And I was like, great, no problem. And I will. And like there's like five years of my life where I didn't go home for Christmas or Thanksgiving because I was making $68 doing comedy on some terrible stage. Yep. Now, in retrospect, it's like it shouldn't be like that. Or we look at reality shows like Love is Blind, and it's like, you know, they should change how these shows are thought of. And then there's people like Nick Fial being like, that's the show. Yeah. That's what you sign up for. So you're saying it's okay to go through this brutal thing. I'm really curious your opinion on the industry and going in knowing it's horrible and that being okay versus, you know, it's like, did America's Next Top Model offer up enough that the toxicity was worth it? or was it horrific and never should have happened? I mean, two perspectives. I don't think it's horrific and never should have happened because I do think it holds, it's a very interesting pop culture nugget that I think is valuable and created language and formats for different shows to come. And so it was definitely a stumbling block onto other things that other shows sort of perfected in a maybe more professional way. That said, it's so interesting what you say about the entertainment industry because like when I started, I was just doing standup and I had this mindset, especially around all these straight comics, this mindset of I will do standup and I'll either get in a writer's room or I'll get my own show and be an actor. And like that was the lane. That was the two lanes that I could do. And there was nothing else I could do. There was no other lane. And I was and I and I got it. I got to be in writer's rooms and I got I got to do those things. And while I was in those writers' rooms, exhausted, I wasn't performing, which is something that I loved. And I also didn't feel like I was doing what I was supposed to be doing. And so I was devastated because it felt like something was wrong with me. It felt like something, like, I got the thing I wanted, and now it's not enough. What's wrong with me? And then I got cancer. And after cancer, I was like, not that cancer, go out and get cancer. But, like, I got cancer. and after that I was just like fuck all of this I don't want to I don't want to work in these rooms with straight dude to smell like old spice and I don't want to be around all these people doing these things when I can maybe figure out a lane for myself that I'm happy about that gives me that scratches the itch that I like which is making money off of me being me and figuring out ways to do that and I took a very of course it wasn't monetarily necessarily always successful but I took a lane that focused more on podcasting or journalism or putting my personality out there or going into drag and doing stand-up through drag or, like, doing it in different ways that isn't as I'm not getting the Netflix special that maybe I envisioned 10 years ago before Netflix was a thing, I guess. But, like, I'm not getting that, but I'm also very happy with what I am doing and the respect that I do have within the industry and my little part of it. and so yeah it's so complicated because the society tells you one thing that there's one lane and you focus on that one lane or you're going to be a fuck up and you're going to fail and everyone's going to laugh at you and i don't think that's true anymore and i hope people are recognizing that younger people i hope people are recognizing that there are lots of lanes there are so many goddamn lanes and you can even make your own goddamn lane and figure out your own way and Sarah really proved it throughout the book that through her own sort of unique perspective on even competing in this, she was creating her own kind of lane of thinking in a way. You know what I mean? Yeah. Oh, I think that was so beautifully said. And even it bring her to this book. And she's a writer. And she's funny. And all these things that would come together. I think I want to read the last three sentences because I think it goes perfectly with what you just said. All of that is to say, I was one of many who were traumatized by the actions of Tyra and the producers. But still, I am grateful. So here's what I would say. Thank you. Pay me. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I think that's it. Yeah. Listen, you want them to be awake for 17 hours and not speaking to each other? Okay. Pay a minimum wage. Yeah. Yeah. Just pay. I can do that. Just pay. Just pay for that. Pay for people's time. Like, I have that same sentiment, not so much the pay part, because I do always want to get paid more. But the idea of, like, those years of me trying to get to that goal, that unattainable and not desirable goal that I had of, you know, working in a writer's room or doing those things, it gave me, it's partly why you and I know each other. It's because it gave me the circle and the respect in the comedy world amongst my peers in that era of people who did go on and get great success. And that I can walk into a room and people know, comedians and writers know who I am. And I value that respect. And those years of doing the thing that didn't necessarily pan out the way I thought it was going to pan out have given me that respect and given me that access to that stuff. And I'm grateful for that. Yeah, it's so fascinating because, yeah, she says, I was traumatized and I'm grateful. It's really horrible because ideally you'd want the whole system to not uphold all this trauma and pain. It'll never be. Right now, some intimacy coordinator out there is doing something that is fucking someone up because everything needs progress. Everything. So it's good that the intimacy coordinator is there, but, like, there's more that could be done. There's better that could come from that. Like, and that's how it's never going to be perfect. and I kind of value that in everything, you know, that like nothing is ever a hundred percent and you learn from the bits that aren't perfect because then it makes you that more perfect. But I think what keeps us creative people, at least keeps us hungry is that we never quite reach perfection and we're always looking for perfection. We're always trying to get there and that keeps us being creative. That keeps us going. In Tyra's moments, she was doing things that for those years were woke, were progressive, that she was hosting a show, and we look back on it, it's like you're actually a terrorist. But she pushed forward. She fucked up a lot, but she pushed forward. And I think we could say that about really any topic we would go to cover. And it's so interesting, I'm doing this now, because I'm actually listening to Barack Obama's audio book. Because I was like, I've never listened to it. I've never read it. I want to read it. And so I'm listening to that, him talk about this era at the same time. And it's fascinating because it's just like we were going towards a direction of change, but like there are stumbling blocks. There always will be. And it's kind of interesting to look back on it and see how it made us kind of who we are now. Oh, I love that. Okay, we're doing the Bukdal test. Three questions. We both answer all three questions. First question, was the author vulnerable in the sharing of her truth? Yes. Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. Second question, was it entertaining to read? Yes, very much so. Surprisingly, I have to say, I was expecting one thing and it went in a different direction. Yeah, I loved it. I thought it was just a great BTS. Well, can I add to that, actually? It was a great BTS that, from a cultural perspective, a pop culture cultural perspective, it actually is a valuable resource for understanding how reality television production was happening at that time. So if you're a reality TV nerd or TV nerd in general or TV history nerd, it's actually a really good read to understand what was going on then. Oh, totally agree. Okay, final question. Did reading this book elevate your life in any way? Yes, it did. Because, you know, it gave me a perspective on something that I don't think there's a lot out there of. And I'm someone who talks about TV a lot and TV history a lot. And there aren't that many books on competition reality TV in this way. Oh, I love that. Yeah, I don't even think I realize that. But you're so right. Yeah, I've read Housewives books. I've read other books like that, but there's not many on competition reality TV, which is a very different lane than the Bravos or even, you know what I mean? Like even the dating shows. Like when you have a competition element to it, a real competition element, not a love competition, it definitely adds a different lane. You know what I mean? It's like different. Yeah, I totally agree. And yeah, this definitely elevated my life. I did struggle with disordered eating for so many years of my life. And to go back to 2007 when I was very much in that time and read the mind frame of someone else, like really being put through that. And as like the quote plus size contestant on reality TV, it just I had so much love for her. Yeah. that it kind of becomes love for yourself of like all these harmful things you were you know that she does to herself in this book and on the show but also she's protecting herself but also she's trying but also she feels so free she's the first one to like get naked and jump in the pool and though that was something in 2007 like i would have i would have gotten to the pool with a full comforter wrapped around my body oh my god and so to kind of like hear about her life and the choices she made i just felt so much love for her and then i felt so much love for like 2007 me Same. Same. Yeah. I like that. I adore you. You are such a dream. I know everyone already listens to your podcast, but please tell everyone where to listen, where to follow. There's several places. Yeah. No, I'm H. Allen Scott on everything. You can listen to my celebrity interviews and pop culture stuff on The Parting Shot. I need to have you on. I have your Friday episodes where we talk about pop culture. I need to have you on. And I have the Golden Girls podcast. And then you can see me performing in Sadie Pines wherever you want in drag. Yes. I love that. Also, have you ever read Rue McClanahan's memoir? Have I read it? Girl, I went to Barracuda in New York to get her to sign it. Thank you. I, trust me. Yes, I went to the, I love that she went, she had her book signing when she was live. God rest her soul. Her memory is a blessing. When she had her book signing at a gay bar called Barracuda in Chelsea in New York. Just, there's just no other human that did it like Ru McClanahan. I agree. And I gotta tell you, there's, I'm having like a psychic moment with her. I swear to God, we'll end the podcast after this. Every day when something happens, her voice pops in my head and it's this. Oh, Rue, don't you know that every kick's a boost? That's so perfect. I love you. I am going to interview Sarah Hartsworn about her memoir about being on America's Next Top Model Season 9. Please know there is a trigger warning for disordered eating and diet culture discussion. Now let's dive in. Sarah, I'm so excited to talk to you about your book. And first, I have to shout out Sam Reese from Shitty Crafts Club for connecting us. Yes, I love Sam. Yeah, you're already in the glamorous trash universe by being good friends with Sam. I mean, also, glamorous trash is just, that's my absolute goal at all times. I could tell in the book. I was like, ooh, yes, we are one. We are the same. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yes. Okay, I have so many questions I want to ask you. I'm just going to dive in. Okay, so in the book, you talk about having these horrifying lectures given to you from the producers to a bunch of 20-somethings about, like, suing you into oblivion and legally they'd ruin your life. In that chapter, you're also taking quotes from the book Cultish to discuss severe manipulation that was happening through these like, you'll be sued forever. So now you've written this memoir and memoirs go through really intense legal processes. What was the legal process of writing this book? That is such a good question. And thank you for asking because a lot of people have been like, are they going to sue you? So this is a great question because it just lets me explain how hopefully not. Yeah, no, but I know that they put the fear of God into you to make you have these fears of like, oh, my God, I'm going to be sued, you know. They very much did put the fear of God in us. And it was so much fundamentally at odds to who I am. Like what I learned from this process is that I am terrible at keeping a secret. And it was so funny because like directly after the show, I was so broke and I ended up working at a Lord and Taylor selling shoes, which I thought I would be so good at because I was a great waitress. So I was like, I'll be great at this. I was awful. I honestly like my boyfriend had to bail me out like and pay rent. It was like commission based probably. And you couldn't lie about these shoes. And 100 percent. Where'd you get your shoes? And I'd be like, Marshall's. I mean, here. And really, I like I'm such a compulsive oversharer that an NDA really hates to see me coming. And like we did sign an NDA. We did sign this contract that did really like tie our hands in a lot of ways. but it also expired after the final episode of the show aired. Not my cycle, but the show itself. So Top Model did exist in many different iterations with a couple different hosts. I think three different hosts over a total of, I think, 27 cycles, which incidentally, I should verify this information. Someone years ago told me that it was called cycles because they often did more than one a year. I actually don't know if that's true, but it sounded right. So I was like, okay, that's why they don't call them seasoned. So eventually the show did officially go off the air and anything that would come back would technically be a reboot and would be a different show. So that happened in, I want to say, 20, I think, 19 or 2021 or some amount of years ago. I love that that was in the contract. Thank God. So what happened is, is like I submitted the draft and legal read it and legal kind of poured over it with a fine tooth comb. and they were like, okay, is this true? To give an example of how fine tooth it was, like at one point I used the phrase hidden cameras and they were like, if you knew they were there, you can't say that they were hidden cameras. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The questions are insane. Yeah. And so then we really had to go back and forth because I was like, okay, but there were cameras that we didn't know were there that we later discovered were there. And they were like, okay. And then like, I ended up using the phrase possibly hidden or, you know what I mean? Like just, just for legal wording. Yeah. Yeah. And there were some things that I couldn't confirm that like some girls had said happened and so I had to be very clear that like I didn't know if it happened I heard that it happened someone said that it happened yeah yeah lots of like quoting people whenever I could and I also I tried to be really careful when I interviewed people I tried to be both careful for me and considerate of them so I was like I'm gonna record it like if there's anything that you don't want to answer don't answer if there's anything that you change your mind about later, that's fine. Yeah, you were really protective of the other girls the way they were not protective of y'all. That's nice, Sarah. I didn't know. I was like, I can't repeat the mistakes. Yeah, exactly. So what about emotionally, though? Like, emotionally, they had made you feel like they were going to destroy your life. So when you went to write the book, did you have to push through that fear? Or were you at a settled place where it was like, no, like this deserves to be told and I'm okay? I wish I could say that I had some sense of justice or some sense of altruism. But I really am, like I said, just a compulsive oversharer. Like this was going to come out in some way or another. You know what I mean? It was either going to be TikToks or conversation or whatever platform and capacity I have. This story was coming out of me. And I think, you know, I got so lucky that I got an amazing literary agent who was like, this could be a book. Like, I see the potential here and was able to, like, shape it in this way that I can feel really good about it. And that people can be like, oh, this story needed to be told. And here's this, like, good reason for it. Meanwhile, I'm just like, I am a literal blabbermouth. And it was like, I love that. Whoever will listen, I'm all saying it. We are all seated. Okay, so in the book, I really just loved how you would never give the producers the soundbite they wanted, especially when they were pushing like sad plus-size-girl model story, and they wanted you to give soundbites like being mean to yourself or being mean to others, and you would start telling them shark facts, like facts about sharks, in order to get them to stop. And so now, though, you're selling a memoir, which also kind of asks for those same marketing clips, hot takes on America's Next Top Model, like, you know, give me the quote. And so I am so curious how you are navigating this part of it, because it feels like you're being put into the same thing again. Very much. And it so funny because I failed to give them the soundbites that they wanted at first despite the fact that I was desperately trying I was trying to do what they wanted and I was just failing because I didn have the knowledge base to understand like they wanted me to be very positive they wanted me to be very body positive very pro plus size you know they wanted me to be like these skinny bitches don't eat I do curvy girls rock yeah they wanted the dove commercial I literally hadn't seen a dove commercial you hadn't learned it yourself yet. I didn't believe it myself. And so I couldn't do it. And so it came out of weeks of like a people pleaser bashing her head into a wall being like, I can't please that. And finally was like, I can't please them. And also I knew that like, I didn't want to say certain things that they were saying, right? I was like, okay, I don't understand what you want. And I'm failing in that way. And then what I do understand, I don't fucking like, so I'm just going to do but it is interesting now yeah trying to to market the memoir and like yeah pulling soundbites and it's so you know i'm not type a i'm not i don't even think i'm type b i think i'm type g you know what i mean like i'm really also my bra size so it's the same well yeah used to and now i think i know i might be a g i was an i for a hot second right after your birth and i was like that's also a great bra size the i i i i i i've given birth give me the i i bra I used to say that G stands for my boobs are sweaty. Yeah. Listen, if that was a tagline on a bra, I'd buy it. 100%. But there are certain things that like in the process of writing the book, I was sort of talking to my friends about it. And one of them on Twitter, where I am not at all anymore, but I used to be, was like, hey, Sarah, typing out like in a tweet, like, hey, Sarah, is it true? Isn't it true that you didn't get paid in response to some tweet about Top Model? And I responded and I said, $40 a day, no residuals. And we had to pay for our own food. Just like a real casual reply to a friend. Yeah. And it went so viral. It ended up being like in The Guardian. It ended up being in USA Today. It got like picked up. I try to be very careful about how I use the term viral. But when it was getting picked up by publications, I was like, okay, this might be viral. And it haunts me so much because we actually got paid $37 a day. And it truly. You rounded up. I rounded up. You know, people would like reach out for interview requests. I'd be like, I will absolutely do an interview if you will clarify that it was $37. Like my, I have no stipulations other than that. That's amazing. So I just want to repeat that $37 a day, no residuals. Most days, no residuals. We did not get paid every day. So it was just like filming days, not like travel days. It was a cash stipend for which we were supposed to pay for our food. Right. So it wasn't even really being paid. It was just you get $37 a day for food. So, okay. And that includes ordering out, ordering meals, or like we could give them grocery lists every week. They would have a grocery trip. But after we got eliminated, we had to stay in a hotel for an undetermined amount of time. It was different for every girl. Some girls were there for two days. I was there for two weeks. One girl was there for over a month. We did not get paid for those days. So I got a lot of questions on our Patreon and our Instagram when I said I was interviewing you about Ebony. And that was a part of the book where I was just, the gasp lasted maybe like 37 seconds. Like I was like, where basically Ebony cried to just leave the show. She's like, I just want to go home. I can't do this. And then you get to the hotel and you've been there for weeks and weeks and you find, you run into Ebony who all she wanted to do was go home. and then she was locked in a hotel by herself for an entire month instead. Yeah, she did not have the key. And then they brought her to China. They kept her for almost two months. Two months. Almost two months in solitary confinement in a hotel room that she did not have the key to. A hotel room she didn't have the key to, solitary confinement, and she had broke down and left the show just so she could talk to and see her family. Yeah. That was so hard to take. And looking back, I didn't know that they took her to China at the time. I found out years later. Because, like, there was, like, an episode happening there. And, like. Yeah, they brought all the girls to China. And they brought a few because they were basically decoys. Because paparazzi recognized the van. So, anytime we showed up anywhere, there would be paparazzi. So, they would have decoy girls. Sometimes they were girls from the cycle. Sometimes they were, like, extras that they hired that would, like, follow us in. The paparazzi couldn't count and be like, okay, there's five left. There's six left, however many. But also, it's so cruel to specifically bring ebony. And not that I want it to happen to anyone, but it's like, why did they bring someone else? And there was so much that I personally excused for years. For years, I really, I drank the Kool-Aid, or as I recently found out it wasn't Kool-Aid, it was like some other brand of sugary drink. Oh, you mean at Jonestown? At Jonestown, it's a different, it's not Kool-Aid, it's like Sweet Aid or something. Anyways, I forget what it actually is. But I really parroted what the producers had told me for years. And I bought it. And I was like, no, they weren't malicious. No, it was all just to make good TV. And that was this, like, excuse that I had coming out of my mouth all the time that I really believed. And when I was writing the book and I realized that they had done that to Ebony, I was like, that didn't make it to air. No one knew that they did that. That was just malicious. That was just punishment. I mean, she was 19. And 19. And they're just punishing her because they're mad that she wanted to go home. So, okay, I want to compare this to, like, recently we've heard Love is Blind contestants being like, hey, the conditions they film in are horrific. Other people push back, like Nick Vial being like, that's just reality TV. That's signing on to a production. It's also when you work on a production for, like, something fictional, the hours are crazy, the whatever is crazy. But in a reality show, you guys couldn't speak to each other unless the cameras were there. You didn't have your phones. They often wouldn't give you your books. They would only sometimes give you your iPods. And so you would be in a room alone for hours and hours and hours. One time it was 17 hours, but you were not allowed to speak to each other. So it's set up to truly make you go crazy. Do you think filming reality TV has gotten any better? Or when the Love is Blind castmates are talking about their horrible conditions, is this just the same thing continuing on? I think in some ways it has gotten better because, I mean, I was on Top Model in 2009. so it was really the wild west of reality tv and so there were a lot of things that they could get away with then that i don't think they could get away with now just in terms of like guarding our physical safety and i think that there were things that happened on like early other you know other shows that hopefully would not happen now however i will say when i watch shows like love island which i actually really try not to do because it's a little triggering i'm sure the drinking stresses me out because if I could have drank when I was on the show and I know that other girls did have alcohol pushed a lot more aggressive later cycles they pushed alcohol a lot more aggressively including on girls who are underage in subtle very difficult to ever like prove ways you know they just you know let them know workarounds for how they could make it happen yeah I would have been like oh well i would have been i absolutely because it was so stressful and it was so weird and even at that age when i didn't have a lot of exposure or understanding of drinking i anything to take the edge off i would have done of course anything that would have been made available to me so when i see them drinking i find it so stressful and that is something that i think is becoming just sort of accepted as part of how we like like when i watch the any episode i've ever tried to watch of like the bachelor or the bachelor bachelor especially bachelor in paradise no it just feels like how are you like how are they able to consent to anything that's happening yeah and oftentimes not it's so fascinating because on rupaul's drag race you know they only allow them like their two drinks yeah and and sometimes it's one and so it's like you it is something you really can regulate and they've chosen not to and also i do still think that like there's a long way to go in terms of how we treat reality show contestants i do think that shows like the Great British Bake Off have shown us that like you can have people having a nice time and it still makes good TV. People want to watch it. Yeah. And I also truly selfishly, I want real reality TV because that's the stakes of it and high stakes make something great to watch. I don't want to watch people fake it, like let people truly live. That's the better television. But yeah. And pay them for their time. And pay them for their time. $37. You know, I really related to you on that because I was a traveling touring comedian and we would get paid for show nights, $98, but then you also got a $25 per day, per diem per day you were traveling. And just like you, I was like, I will be buying one tortilla and a bag of nuts so that $20 stays in my pocket because you were, you were saving money by sending a grocery list of what was it? Rice. and uh it was refried beans eggs and iceberg lettuce and ice and hot sauce yeah yeah i love so listen i know i'm i this is the trash i am this is the trash part of my equation yes i love iceberg lettuce iceberg lettuce with ranch and bacon bits oh yeah i and see and now i'm vegetarian and i get the fake bacon but i guess bacon bits are already vegetarian they're all fake they're all little soy chips little crunchy girl i eat that all the time when you were like i was eating refried beans and hot sauce and some rice i was like absolutely poor man's burrito 100 but you know what's so lovely about being like recovered from an eating disorder is like now i do still eat that for breakfast but it's like this beautiful much more nutritious like delicious and seasoned version of it like it's like blue corn tortilla chips crumpled up in there a little pickled onion yeah like maybe a fried egg a lot of like yeah a lot of hot sauce a lot of like a little bit like full fat cheese get out of town like i eat it and i'm like this is joyful this is not restrictive in every way. I just want to say for everyone listening, we're going to do a whole episode on your book, but I loved, loved, loved how you talked about disordered eating, because we're also in that same club. And the way you wrote about it was so exact to how it feels, which is like, oh, it's not happening, but it is happening, but it's being pushed on you. But like, wait, what's going on? And then like, the way you're like, no, I'm totally fine. And then you would read your journal entries back and be like, oh my God. So frustrating. Yeah. So insane. Oh, write about what happened. I don't care how much I weighed. Yeah. Okay. I guess I just have the one quick question, which is like, you were put in this plus size position, but then they were like, you're too small to be plus size. And I think everyone viewing was also feeling the exact same way. And they're like, but you can't be a model because whatever. And so then they kept putting this storyline on you of like, are you trying to lose weight? Are you trying to lose weight? What storyline were they trying to force on you with that? Were they trying to bring something malicious out? I think that when they realized that I just didn't have it in me to be the raw, raw, curvy girls, rock, real women have curves candidate. Because the cycle after mine, a plus size girl won. And she was very body positive. And which is amazing. Like, I'm not. You were just like, I've been taught to hate myself. And I hate myself on this show. And the way what you're saying to me makes me hate myself. But like, so I can't be positive right now. we still have a long way to go in terms of media representation. And we're backsliding a lot right now. Like, and that's a whole, I can get into a whole rant about how fashion week had, you know, less plus size representation than it's had in years, like in 2025. But one thing I do think that is positive that we maybe take for granted sometimes is like, we have phrases, we have words that are in the vernacular, like even just saying like real women have curves. That's a phrase that we have heard before. I had never heard that. before. We had never heard like, love your body, embrace your curves. I just didn't have that language. I didn't have those cultural references. I didn't have that in the bank of knowledge in my brain. So I couldn't parrot it back at them. Oh, that's such a beautiful point. And I just like want to zone in on like, this is 2009. Quick little fix here. Cycle nine of America's Next top model taped and aired in 2007 not 2009 okay back to the up i talk about this all way too much on the podcast but when i go back it's all boleros boleros boleros boleros over everything i wore because i was like oh i have fat arms i should hide my arms because that's like what society said and that was totally illogical but it's like i'm in a gown i've got a little sweater bolero over it like i'm in anything a bolero and that's not that long ago that you were like i don't even know the words to say to be a positive figure. I just don't. Yeah, I just don't. I just don't have it. And I mean, part of that is also that I grew up, you know, in a town of 685 people. There were a lot of cultural phrases that I didn't have in my background and in my head. So like, that was also a factor. But you know, is it as much a part of the conversation? Like his body positivity often equally toxic? Yes, but it, it exists. And it's there. And it's something you know what I mean? It's something to Yeah, and we're in fact, backsliding. I know this from a really smart patreon members you know eating disorders are the worst they've ever been body positivity in the stats is the worst it's ever been but at least there's a language that exists to discuss it which is a really tiny win wish there was more okay another question there's goalposts yeah there's at least the soundbite and i was just swinging blind at the time i had no goalposts yeah and so i think once they were like oh she can't do that then they were like all right well she doesn't like her body let's go after that and then because i'm obstinate i was like no no i mean i do but like that shush like yes that's my favorite shameful like i i at least know that's shameful you know what i mean like i know that i'm not supposed to yeah so yeah what a complicated not to be in so one thing that is like really wild for me to think about is if you compare the skill set of modeling to a reality show about like singers the skill set of singing American Idol produced, you know, Kelly Clarkson, Fantasia Barrino, contracts, album deals. There's actually like, I don't know, I bet I could get to like 20 names of singers that I know who went on to some sort of success. Why did America's Next Top Model not produce the equivalent when it comes to models? So I don't want to discount the girls who did become successful models after the show. Like I will say Fatima from Cycle 10. She has walked in Milan, in Paris. She's been in every major high fashion magazine. Great. Okay. Lisa Jackson from My Cycle was a working model for years. Still is, I think. And I want to say, like, I'm not saying, like, no one ever modeled again, no one ever found success. I'm saying Tyra seemed to be promising you're going to be Chrissy Brinkley. Like, these are the supermodels of the world. And we've given you a TV show to make this a household name, whereas, like, not all models are known. Because I know a lot of models are really successful, so I also don't want to discount that. Yeah. It just feels like the promise of the show didn't pay off in the ways that sometimes the promise of those other reality shows did pay off. Yeah. I think also we think of modeling as being so glamorous. A lot of people don't understand the reality of being a working model. Like, A, you can be a very successful model and not make enough that you don't need to supplement with other jobs. Like, when I was modeling in New York, I was doing catalog stuff. So I was getting well paid for photos that were not good. I was getting paid a lot to wear like, you know, nightgowns with Minnie Mouse on them. So like that doesn't seem glamorous or seem fun. But I was also, you know, getting to travel and I was getting to fly, you know, to Europe every month and like getting paid a thousand dollars a day to do it. And so I was like a working model. I made a living wage from modeling in ways that don't seem glamorous or excited. I got paid a thousand dollars a day to wear plus size dirndles and plus size nightgowns. I did a cover of a Vogue magazine with Baz Luhrmann. Okay, that's amazing. Yeah, I got paid $100. And then I got bumped up to $150 because I ended up on the cover. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Okay, so you have this really great video you made on Instagram about Tyra's impact. Because Tyra's taken a lot of heat. I have to tell you, I remember watching the show, but I rewatched it when I was reading your book. And I was like, I can't believe that was television. I can't believe that was shown to us in any way of like, this is a normal TV show. Like, it's so insane. And so people are watching it back with a critical lens, including things like, why are there challenges where people are put into blackface? Multiple episodes. And so, and then multiple, multiple seasons apart. Also, you know, Tyra is a black woman. So it's also like, there's this dynamic of like, wait, but she has signed off on it. But also Tyra in her own show. Remember, she used to come out in fat suits and be like a day in the life of the fat, like, here's how I experienced life. She also did day in the life of a homeless person. Yeah, she's really, that's like her, that's something in her brain that she enjoys, like day in the life of, I don't know, cosplaying as oppressed. And so, anyways, people are really critical. However, we also have to be like, this was one of the only black women getting her own TV show hosting in that time. You had a really nuanced take on this, and I just want to hear what are your thoughts in hindsight, looking back on Tyra's impact, not only on you all on the show, but on the girls and people everywhere who watch the show. You know, people comment this on a lot of my TikToks, and I think it's true. Like, she does bear the maybe an unfair level of the brunt of the blame. Yeah. There was a whole team of producers. There was a whole network. There were sponsors who were all pushing wheels forward and putting things in motion that do not have to deal with these consequences. Furthermore, like, OK, I haven't seen any of the seasons where Janice Dickinson was a judge, but I have seen some clips where she said some pretty unforgivable things. And she's gotten to have this redemption arc where, oh, she was just doing what she thought she was supposed to do. She was just doing what producers told her to. And it's like, OK, well, there were a lot of judges on that show. and not all of them said the things that you said. And also, you know, I will say that like my personal experience was that the most hurtful things said to me were by Twiggy and nobody has ever had a problem with her. Yeah, the Twiggy stuff in the book is heinous. And I'm not saying that Twiggy is a bad person and doesn't deserve redemption and needs to be, you know, publicly flogged. That is not what I'm advocating at all. I'm just saying like... The comparison of why do certain people take the heat and not others. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, Tyra, as the host, obviously in a certain position. Also, you know, she's given us those like, we were all rooting for you. But it's a lot to look back on. Also, Mr. J. Manuel, different from Miss J, really seemed like he fucking hated being there. Is that true? I have read his book and it is wild. It's really interesting because there are all these little glimmers where I'm like, well, I know that really happened. Wow. So the book is, when you read it, you're like, that's real. Or did you feel like some of it was made up? Some of it is very extreme. I mean, like the Nigel character is secretly gay. I certainly am not. And that, you know, I always. That's of their writing. Yeah. Yeah. And I had always heard the rumor that Nigel slept with a contestant every cycle. And then that in no way materialized. I mean, that I know of. Wow. I don't want, you know. but we didn't see any evidence of that he was never like inappropriate or anything but that was always the rumor that i had heard and so then there was yeah this different rumor that you know in the book yeah the character is gay i think and then also there's a lot of backstory between quote-unquote the tyra character and the ken mock character that i don't think is i think is is for the sake of the novel i've got to imagine that mr j's ndas and contracts were much more limiting even than mine. And also the ramifications that Mr. J would face are a lot. Right? Like, you know, if Ken Mock never wants to work with me again, then I'm like, nice. Awesome. That sounds great. Mutual. That's the producer of the show. The creator of the show. Yeah. Not that he couldn't, I'm sure if he wanted to, he could inflict damage on me. I'm not trying to say, you know, that he's not a powerful figure in the entertainment world. You're just saying you don't want to work with him. I just personally would not. If he asked me to work with him, I would not. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a name people don't know, but we do know Tyra's name, you know? Right. And that's really, because some of Ken's lines, okay, so I worked on a cruise ship. So when y'all went and were filming on a cruise ship, all I could think of was that tropical hits from 2001 to 2005 play on loop on a cruise ship. How did they deal with the sound? And then you have this scene where Ken was like, turn off the music. But I mean, that music goes throughout the whole ship, the whole ship. It's so funny you mentioned this because I didn't put this in the book because it's sort of like just a weird little detail. It's not really relevant to the story at all. It plays all throughout the ship and it plays in the hallways, but not in the conference room. So we would be sitting when we were sitting in the conference rooms in the book. I talk about this, but like we sat in cruise ship conference rooms for hours and hours at a time, usually on ice, not able to talk. And then sometimes, yeah, the executives or the lawyers or the network executives would come in and give us the same spiel over and over again. So it was just like, I mean, literally, I think, you know, 75 percent of our time was spent sitting in these rooms where we would just hear. And then, you know, to open the door and it would be like. And then, oh, that is crazy making. and for anyone it was crazy i mean listen you should be listening to the book episode before you listen to this but in case you haven't yes for some reason they shot two weeks of the show on a cruise ship and then and i didn't even realize it but they're like well girls you've been eliminated you're staying on the islands and then they film that they're like no get back on the cruise ship and then they just have to like keep cruising home i talked to a girl who did get eliminated on the cruise ship and they flew out of the tiny little airport on the island and also like it was crazy because so they got all of their stuff off the cruise ship right they knew already obviously but they got all their stuff what i really wonder is if they got it right because i talked to some girls in other cycles not mine who had like very precious things lost or stolen just in all the rigmarole of like being eliminated or being sent home or being kept in a hotel for weeks like your stuff goes to a lot of places without you you know like there's pas who we're supposed to sort everyone stuff like i know i talked to claire unabia and she lost like a very precious diamond ring that her husband had given her or earring maybe and then she won this is so funny to me she won in one of the challenges like a hello kitty diamond necklace and so she when she was going home she was like this is like not as good yeah like i don't want a hello kitty necklace instead i want the precious jewelry that they lost and i was like i wonder like if they gave that to her like as this you know what i mean like yeah i like i don't know if it was right so but i just like i think about all those girls and i think about how devastating that must have been and like yeah did they i hope they you know i hope they all got their stuff but it wasn't even like airlines that know you know ostensibly know how to handle luggage it was like pas who had a million other jobs so i just yeah wow yeah it's reading the book is just so it's just so wild and also just like getting free shit in a trash bag and taking it home to your friends but but you're broke and you have no money because you spent it in the hotel it's just like nothing that any of us were imagining yeah okay i have one big question and then three very we're doing a quick round so in the book you talk about realizing you are bisexual because other girls in the house were also queer and had varying you know identities that were discussed on camera i could not believe that for a show that wants to scandalize and whatever, that they cut all of that from the show so that, because you were like, oh my gosh, did I just finally come out and come to terms with, like I know who I am, but it's on camera, and they didn't even put it into the show. None of it. Why do you think that was, looking back in hindsight? I really don't know, because, I mean, I don't know. I thought it was interesting. Are you kidding me? 2009 multiple models which are only put through this patriarchal heterosexual eye you know are all queer and young women like coming out in different ways like why would that not have made it it's such a sad loss yeah i really don't know and i my only guess is that i think that maybe they were trying to go for like an innocent naive farm girl angle with me because like i remember early on very first callbacks i was like so anxious because i was working as an administrative assistant during in the day and a burlesque and go-go dancer at night and i was like this they're not gonna pick me because of this and so i was like all ready to have them talk about it or like ask me about it and they were like tell us about the blueberry farm and i was like what they were like yeah it says here you worked on a blueberry farm from age 11 like talk about that and i was like okay and so i think yeah that's my only possible thing maybe it just was like too risky or yeah it's just interesting to be like America's Next Top Model in 2009 was extremely heteronormative. I guess that makes sense. But like when you talk about the judges and all these things, like it felt like a more queer friendly show. And I guess maybe I got that wrong in my head. Yeah, it's really wild. But I guess I mean, it's also it was a CW. So maybe it was like not family friendly enough. I really don't know. Meanwhile, models are being put in blackface and naked challenges. I know no and yeah there's always a naked every single cycle there's like a naked challenge although I guess was there there might not have been for ours but yeah that I really don't know it's very interesting yeah okay lightning round three questions these all come from the patreon how dirty was the house very clean oh shocking though because the bachelor house is disgusting yeah I know no they had a cleaning crew that came in while we were at photo shoots and it they would never move any of our stuff. So sometimes it got a little messy. But it wasn't dirty. But never dirty, no. Have you spoken with Raja post-show? Because Raja, the makeup artist, goes on to be, like, one, one of the RuPaul's Drag Race seasons, a reality star of her own right. Have you spoken since? I have not. I wish. I hope on this book tour you get to reconnect. Me too. That would be amazing. Has your PR reached out to her? Get on this. We need a moment. They have, but they have not responded. I think also they maybe want to distance themselves a little bit from Top Model, which I understand. Yeah, that's fair. I would really love to because Raja is magical. So magical. Okay, final question. What's one of the Tyra phrases or skills that she taught you that still you either use or you are hunted by? Because I think about smizing and I wasn't on the show. Yeah. Yeah, I am aware that my mouth goes down, like, at the edge. And I will always, you know, like, it's Yeah, it's a little bit of resting bitch face. And as I've gotten older, it's like, more pronounced and a little like, you know, jowly. But every time Yeah, I see a photo of me where it looks like I'm frowning. And I'm just like thinking I'm like, aha, I have a downturned mouth. Because she in one panel in the first panel, she was like, you and Ebony have downturned mouth. It's really beautiful. And I was like, Tara thinks it's beautiful. I am a beautiful I am a beautiful Sarah thank you so much for writing this book I loved making it it's such a cool format because we get to learn about your life your history your childhood but it is like day one of auditioning through getting home which is such a great structure I think it's what everyone wants what is your favorite place to send people to to buy this book I mean I guess I think it's bookshop.org or bookstore.org is that it? bookshop.org yes where you can support independent bookstores yes I think I'm supposed to say Amazon and write a review, but, you know. Well, you know what? Buy it on bookshop.org, but then write a nice review somewhere else. Yeah. Write a nice review somewhere else. Yeah. And, you know, and I feel a little bit like Leonardo DiCaprio at Jeff Bezos' wedding. With the hat down. I know. You know, what they told me is it was this crazy thing where it's like you need high Amazon numbers and Barnes and Noble numbers to make some of these lists. But also if your Amazon numbers are too high, then it hurts you on the list. It was such a terrifying mass to evaluate myself on that I checked out from all of it. How are you doing? No, I know. No, luckily that kind of stuff doesn't stick. Just absolutely not. Yes. Just flying over. Oh, I love that, Sarah. I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, that is so nice. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you. Thank you. A big thank you to our senior managing producer, Christina Lopez. Our executive producer, Jordan Moncada. our sound engineer Marcus Hom, and our amazing associate producer Jaron Padre. I also want to give a huge thank you to our incredible partners over at Thrive Cosmetics and Every Plate. We will link to those brands in the show notes. Go check them out. Everything else we discussed is also linked in the show notes. And if you have questions, thoughts, comments, go to the Patreon. Sign up. There's a free tier you can join. Leave a comment. Chat with your fellow cookies. We will keep the book club continuing over there. you