How do we pull these different factors in to use AI responsibly and at least start figuring out and be part of the global conversation of how we're using AI? Because if coaching is an industry and those of us as individual practitioners don't keep leaning into this, it's going to get away from us. And we're going to leave it to other people to make the decision about how this is being leveraged. How do we pull these different factors in to use AI? Today we're joined by Samaya Kornvibel, a career coach helping leaders navigate the accelerating pace of change and structural shifts in the job market. She helps leaders maintain their agency on navigating career transitions and improving communication. I was a client at many stages of my career. She's just completed an AI coaching certification, so I thought it was a good time to check in, get her insights, and learn as she's incorporating AI into her work. Samaya, welcome to the Expert Intelligence Podcast. Thanks, Paul. It's great to be here. So before we get started, let's just talk about how we met. Yeah. Because you are a career coach and I was one of those leaders and I needed help. Yes, yes. So yeah, that was great. I heard about you first through one of my clients at Microsoft who I had been working with on his career and helping him to advance into different possibilities of where his trajectory could take him because Microsoft was giving him lots of different opportunities to consider. And then, lo and behold, one day he brought your name up and said, would you be willing to work with my friend Paul? Because he's trying to map some of these interesting trajectories as well and doesn't want to just sit around and wait for someone to try to make the decision for him. So I appreciated that you were someone who was trying to be proactive about how he was thinking about his career and wanting to leverage different opportunities that your employer was giving you, but also maybe expand beyond that. It was funny that in your physical life, you may go to a trainer or go to a doctor. In your mental life, you may go to therapy. But we spent most of our waking day when you're adulting in a job. And when we met, it was like a breath of fresh air. The first time that I said, oh, wait, there's someone who can unpack this thing called a career and help me think about what it means from a journey perspective. And so I was always thankful for that. And I wanted to share that story because there may be somebody out there listening that feels stalker has anxiety around what's going on. And there are people that can help. I was fortunate that my employer, Microsoft at the time, was willing to help pay for career coaching. And so I encourage a lot of people to ask their boss or ask their company because a lot of companies will invest in leaders that are trying to navigate it. You know, the interesting thing is the person that introduced us ended up leaving Microsoft, going into a completely different industry and did amazing things. And so a testament to your work and just the work that all career coaches do. So thank you. I want to chime in there too, Paul, that he has been an incredible client for many years and he has shifted industries a couple of times now. But what I loved about our work together, which was similar to how he and I were working together, is that you were willing to ask big questions. And like you said, unpack, like, what is this career? Because you work at a large organization like Microsoft that has lots of different departments and different products and services and all those things. Sometimes people can become a little bit complacent or thinking, oh, I guess my path has just laid out for me. If I just keep working hard and keep getting recognized for a job well done, I'll just keep finding my way. But the two of you actually decided to take the bull by the horns and really dig deeper into what does this all mean? How does it connect to something that inspires me, that actually makes a difference in the world, that is actually helping me become a better version of myself and then I'm not becoming complacent. I'm not expecting somebody else to do it for me. And so it was wonderful working with you and watching how you started opening up your aperture to see more possibilities, including the fact that there was so much more of an entrepreneur in you than some of the recent experiences were really allowing you to express. And so it's been wonderful through the years to see how you've leveraged the work that we did together, but also that discovery within yourself and nurturing that part of yourself to be where you are today. It's interesting I refer to those notes from that time. Quite often they still represent a good roadmap. One of the things that you've talked about that I think is relevant and maybe it's because of my cohort or kind of what's going on in the job market is the career meltdowns, especially around our forgotten generation, Generation X, who should be at the peak of their careers. I always go back to the game musical chairs. As a kid we were running around and then sometimes there's not a chair. It feels in some ways that that is a good metaphor for how the job market is. What are you observing about Gen X specifically? Well, I think it's a very interesting generation because we have been moving through the pandemic and the recovery just as everyone else has, but because we are at this age and stage of our lives and careers where we many of us have young children and we're really getting to the place in our careers where we're taking on more leadership or we're starting our own businesses and starting to spread our wings. There's this confluence of all kinds of things that have just made things more complicated and it has led to a lot of career meltdowns because there's the whole recovery effort. There's the great resignation, the quiet quitting, those phenomenons that were happening during the pandemic and just I think a general sense of many of us stopping in our tracks and realizing, what are we doing? What does it matter? Am I really doing the work that means something to me and is my company and is the business landscape giving me the opportunity to do that? Because things keep changing so quickly and now we're the, you know, recent history. We've got all interesting factors of a new administration coming in and changing a lot of the value and relevance of different kinds of work and how people are showing up in government and in business and trying to find their place and it's it is. It's like, where's my chair? I've in my education. I've got all this experience. I'm not done. I'm not ready to retire but there's so much uncertainty. I feel like I have to keep proving myself every day on how valuable I am and I'm dealing with reorgs I'm dealing with funding being cut I'm dealing with oh, we're redoing the budget yet again because things have changed so dramatically. We have to go back to the drawing board again on where are we getting our resources? How much we can actually spend and what are we investing in again? And it just keeps changing. So Gen Xers have to be very resilient creative and committed to something bigger than just these immediate factors that keep changing chairs I did a count once around how many managers I had. Tech is very special in that it's fluid. It's dynamic. It's constantly changing but the reorgs and meetings and everything about the culture of that work started to make me ask like at what cost when I started looking at the priorities of my time, which is the most valuable non-renewable asset we all have at what cost and for me that was a very clarifying way to look at it to help me prioritize because hey, the business is going to change. It's going to do its thing You just got certified as an AI powered coach. Yes Talk about that a little bit to tell the story I was on LinkedIn one day and I saw you pop up and you were a career coach and you just got an AI certification Help me understand what got you interested a little bit about the program that you participated in and then I want to talk a little bit about how it's relevant to other people saying hey I want to kind of start experimenting and increase my AI literacy What did you learn that would be valuable to others? So how did you get started? Yeah, so like many of us paul I was so many people in my coaching community were coming up and saying hey samaya How's your business? How are things going and have you heard of this new new thing? So we'd start talking about different AI tools And how it could help us in business help us with coaching But there were a lot of questions and sometimes not a lot of interest Or feeling like they had the confidence and their own skills to play with AI very much But we were talking about it and then I'd go into coaching sessions with leaders and they're talking about it And we're all wondering how do we use this? How do we make sense of Leveraging something like this in the work that we're doing and making sure it's an efficient use of our time that it does help us produce meaningful results And that we do start feeling like it's possible for us to build the skill set in our busy busy lives To manage this responsibly And so through those conversations which were happening for a few years, but they started to accelerate Especially as more AI adoption was happening in corporations And more of my leaders were being asked to Try things out and to then ripple them out to their teams and figure out how to use it in their work streams And their workflow and and yet many of my leaders didn't have a lot of time to take on that learning curve Especially when there wasn't someone really partnering with them to ask big questions about the how and the why and then What kind of results or benefits there would be on the other side of it because they needed to know that that was Going to be worth the time and energy and so this program came up last year through my coaching community And one of my colleagues lisa and edwards who runs a technology company Here in the seattle area called excelia ink And she was listening to these conversations and responding to different requests because her company is using and building different tools to help enhance the ROI of coaching to help leaders become better communicators and how they're using what they call Conversational AI, which is a new product. They just released this year That is helping people to understand different components about communication and how to be more effective So they can be a better leader a mentor or even take on coaching And so the program gave me an opportunity to start taking some of these peripheral conversations and start focusing it into a cohort experience And working with lisa and then another mentor kate mccartney Who came from microsoft and now runs her own business partnering with microsoft and ai adoption And joining forces with the two of them and then the cohort of coaches that came together We started really digging into how can we use this responsibly because first and foremost we are coaches We create a confidential space with our leaders Or clients to look at change management development career opportunities how they're managing their health their time their energy And we need to make sure that this is safe. It's confidential And how is the data being managed? We need to align that with our professional ethics and our standards And so one of the things we started digging into is being able to leverage a model That lisa and kate had formulated to help us understand How do we pull these different factors in to use ai responsibly? And at least start figuring out and be part of the global conversation of how we're using ai because if coaching is an industry And those of us as individual practitioners don't keep leaning into this It's going to get away from us And we're going to leave it to other people to make the decision about how this is being leveraged So I learned a fantastic model in the program really to set the stage for what we were about to do in learning additional ai Resources and how to use them It's called the chair model and it helped us coaches kind of start wrapping our mind around how can we create a relationship with ai that can connect to this human experience and this partnership between a coach and a client So we looked at clarity clarity of when to actually use ai not to just use it because But to really have clarity of intention of why we would be using it and then to humanizing How we'll be using ai and what I mean by that is that we're using our communication skills We're putting ourselves in the shoes of the client and thinking about how can we help them understand What and why and how ai can actually enhance this experience add value to the work that they're doing and their growth and their leadership development So humanizing that having conversation exploring their concerns their questions And coming to an agreement together as partners to decide if and when and what we would use To enhance the coaching experience And then three it's really important to be able to align with the organization What's the organization using? What are they not comfortable using? and understanding that so we're not that violating any rules or cyber security Considerations or having any compliance issues and things like that But really being able to help people use some of the resources that they may have access to And as we know so many companies are using the microsoft suite of tools So this program actually is focusing on Helping us understand those tools better because they've already been vetted And they've already met a lot of the criteria that many of us coaches find really important And that's what these organizations have adopted. So as we partner with our clients on this It's important that we're following and aligning and understanding kind of the back end of what are we using and making sure it's compliant And everyone is in agreement about it And then the last two elements one is is that how do we integrate this? So we can be using the ai in an efficient way And we're you know as I mentioned earlier we have a clarity of intention of it So how can we integrate it so that there's efficiency and there's momentum and progress with it as opposed to oh It's a shiny wonderful cool thing and we get lost on the rabbit hole with it, you know And then finally we want to realize the tangible results that can be created from this experience So we can kind of come in on the front end of it and say well, this is what we anticipate We could get as a result or as a benefit But let's dig in a little bit deeper Especially because if we can lean into the technologists and some of the early adopters And be tapping into their experiences with ai We can start to get some of that information about the results and the benefits they've already Experienced and how can we translate that into the work that we're doing? So we feel a little bit more safe a little bit more secure about what we're trying to co-create and that actually We could get there instead of thinking it could give us this big wonderful thing and then we can't create that at all So setting good expectations So that model paul was shared with me as an introduction to the program And we call it the chair model because the clarifying humanizing aligning integrating and realizing the results Helps us coaches address some of the main concerns we were thinking about with ai and then helps us start to create what we call a Responsible ai framework for how we would use this in our coaching And so that then becomes this platform that we spring off of to say, okay based on how we're co-creating that with our clients and their organizations What tools are we going to use? And for what end and what kind of results do we want to create with them? so then we started moving into different labs and tutorial experiences where we got to See different case scenarios of client situations of them running into time management issues, for example And then how could we use viva? insights the microsoft product To help create more clarity and awareness of where is your time going? How are your meetings structured? I think you figured out. Where's your time going? I think it's called meetings meetings. Exactly Exactly It's been fun to look at how viva can help us Take the leader into their viva dashboard and start setting up some intentional structure around how long are your meetings? Are you giving yourself enough of a break between meetings? How many of your meetings are starting on time? How many of them are going over? And basically when I can help the leader now go into that tool and set up some of the Structure and the features there then viva is going to be working in the background without look and reading and Understanding what's happening in that leader's world with their time management and now is going to create a dashboard So now when I go into a coaching session that we're talking about how to leverage their time and energy wisely We can now use their viva dashboard to give us metrics to help us check in and see how are things going And then the coaching can go even deeper because we're using this tool to create visibility and accountability and being able to show them how things can be measured And now we can start to look at and what additional things are coming up as far as thought patterns behaviors In resistance to different things and start working with them on those aspects in the coaching session And just playing around with this relationship that they're building with their time their energy and then their tools And then how that can help them connect up to be even more intentional With where they're investing their time and how they're setting things up with their team to set expectations As you were going through the program Yeah, what were two or three things? That surprised you in a good way and what were two or three things that were Maybe pushed on hey, I'm a coach one day. My leaders may just go to a coaching bot There's that friction as people start to realize what the technology can do and can't do So what are those things that really surprised you and sort of challenged you as a coach when you went through that course? Yeah, it's a great insight paul because it's been the biggest topic in the coaching community for the past several years I would say the last five to eight years. There's been murmurings of this. Are we going to be replaced by a bot? And I think that certainly crept up in some of my own thinking as I'm starting to see how some of these AI resources can really be so useful to bringing different insights forward for someone that's using them and understanding how they're using them and using them well However, as I bring these into conversation because we also had affinity groups that would be meeting between Class time and so it was a chance for us into smaller groups As the cohort come together and start talking about some of these things like gosh, you know in class yesterday I felt a lump in my throat come up when I realized This really is happening now like people can use chat gpt or clod or perplexity and they can Ask a question and they can get a pretty interesting response, especially as they become a more sophisticated prompt writer And clarify their questions. They can be getting some really powerful insights and potentially even some coaching out of this How do I stay relevant? And so in those vulnerable conversations one of the things that we kept leaning into is the importance of talking about this The importance of staying curious and not being intimidated by the technology But curious about how we could continue to use it to enhance the coaching experience not replace it And that's something that through each of the lessons in the course That's also being referenced. We're talking very openly about that and we have space to talk about some of those concerns I remember one day in class we were discussing that the old way of doing things was that in many cases We as the coaches And sort of the expert that was bringing in to this development experience for our client We had access to all these tools and resources and we would be the one that was filtering through it and giving the client access to it But the new way of doing things leveraging the power of AI and again being intentional responsible and creative with it We could start to become a partner in helping our clients have Access to even more resources in the front end and we could be walking alongside them Learning how to set it up for success How to ask critical questions to help them be intentional and responsible with how they were using AI and then also with whatever the output is to not just Accept it as the gospel truth but instead to accept it and challenge it play with it stay curious agile and Continue to explore what value does this have and always creating the connection and the partnership To be able to explore it together And to then use it to go even deeper into some of the other places that we as partners Were looking into like what was really slowing this person down when they were trying to embrace new time and energy management practices The AI can create that wonderful dashboard experience, but what else is going on inside their heads and their hearts? I think one of the things that was important as I've had career coaches and even engagement was Someone to keep me accountable I could read something or we could have a discussion and a follow-up email or even say AI wrote it But that idea that there was a person who I had made a commitment to that hey in two weeks I will have worked on these three things and that human looked at me and said how'd you do as you're trying to improve any aspect of your life that human connection And accountability is a critical part and I think as we look at AI People say wow answered these questions and gave me information, but that's only a small part of The journey of change or the journey of learning Especially when you're trying to put something in practice like evolving your career Yes, and I worry is maybe you do that a lot of people are getting answers But losing the connection and the things that really drive change really drive transformation An AI may say hey Here's a way to change your career to go and do this but without going and meeting the people in the field without going to the Events or getting on a zoom call or out into your community That change doesn't happen becomes an academic exercise where you've attained some knowledge But you haven't done the hard work in the connection that can really make it happen You said something that was interesting around curiosity But the more you lead in and play with this technology, which is a general purpose technology that is good for people in computer science Career coaches I was at a hackathon in the uk Last week and there were two tables of administrators in the back. There was hr and finance And if you've ever been in corporate america two Organizations that are important but not usually on the cutting edge of innovation or hr and finance And they were leaning in in a very curious way and they were lit up They were like hey, this can help me do my job It wasn't a replacement thing and they had started in that place because they too had been in organizations Were like all finance is going to be done by a bot one day What advice would you give to someone who is really struggling? Maybe they don't feel Psychologically safe and I want to talk about that just for a minute. Yeah, so important and it existed before AI I mean I'd been in tech for quite a bit of time And psychological safety was always at the core of if I was trying to drive innovation or trying to do change Like to be out in front of something you never felt really safe You had to have a certain sense of belief in yourself or belief in the work that you were doing How are you helping people especially now as it relates to this technology where the first blush Especially with the efficiency and the restructuring that's going on the technology itself makes them feel unsafe In an already unsafe environment that existed before the technology. How are you helping people navigate that? Well first and foremost, I'm really thoughtful about creating a confidential Safe space for them to just Be in conversation with me so that we can explore what's going on for them And what I mean by that is I need to be deeply listening to what they're saying and what they're not saying And in my own presence and in my own energy that I'm bringing into the conversation I need to bring genuine curiosity and a sense of calm confidence Because as that is getting picked up on Your own heart coherence as the concept in neuroscience That is your heart brain scanning the energy and feeling into what is this space this conversational space going to feel like Do I feel like there's a potential threat because if so I will not feel psychologically safe But if I feel like I can tune into the other person's energy and they're coming in With some clarity Transparency a calm confidence. They're not judging me. They're staying curious All these types of things start to help our systems feel like it's okay to just be myself in this space So that's critical because in many cases a lot of my sessions or even just conversations with people Like we're having today paul People are so busy dealing with so many different challenges this whole confluence Especially as gen Xers where our parents are aging and having health issues Their independence is starting to shift They may need more of our care. We've got our careers that are in all kinds of flux because of some of the factors We were talking about earlier. We're trying to raise children in this world And now we're trying to lead and trying to Create a safe space for people to feel like they can grow and they can keep showing up for work and keep doing meaningful work with us so it's a lot and To create a conversational space with somewhere where they can feel psychologically safe is a huge gift because it allows them to just be themselves They don't have to armor up They don't have to think of what the next great thing is because they're trying to prove Their intelligence or their value to someone which is happening a lot right now and a lot of people's workplaces Because things are getting reorganized all the time And so people are trying to hold on to well How can I prove that i'm still an asset to this company and to this team and to this business effort? It doesn't give them much of a sense of psychological safety. So they're always a little bit on edge So being thoughtful about that. I like to help people slow down a little bit And tune into asking bigger questions that are helping them to just expand a little bit more instead of contract And letting them know that because i'm carrying an energy of curiosity versus judgment or that I already have the answer I'm not asking loaded questions I'm giving them a space to unload a little bit of what's happening in their world so that they can just ah Breathe and I think psychological safety is so important because it is something we need to cultivate It's not something that thing there it is Now we have it. Woohoo, right It is something that you need to be intentional about cultivating for and with each other So that it can counterbalance all the uncertainty that's going on within us and around us because we all have big questions right now about what we're doing in our lives And how we're navigating our careers forward and what are we doing in business? And how are we using things like AI to help us innovate and stay relevant in the world And so with those big questions We need to be thoughtful about creating psychological safety for and with each other I think that advice whether you're a career coach or whether you're a Manager or a leader the ability to give people space To breathe I mean yes, whether it's The social media or the hype or the news or all the things that we need to put down To find that space to kind of recenter And to make decisions especially if you're listening and hey I either am going to be forced to make a career change or want to proactively make a career change Doing it from a place of safety, but also just a centered place where you've had time to breathe and really connect with people I think is critical. So yeah, thank you so much for taking Your time and sharing your journey as a career coach and as somebody that's trying to explore What technology means not only for yourself, but for leaders who have a responsibility to help navigate it for pretty large Organizations, so I thank you and it will always be thankful for the time that we've been able to spend together as I've navigated What all of this means for me professionally and personally to everyone out there till next time? Thank you and stay curious
