Hey sweetie, your mother showed me this Carvana thing for selling the car. I'm gonna give it a try. Wish me luck. Me again, I put in the license plate. It gave me an offer. Unbelievable. Okay, I accepted the offer. They're picking it up Tuesday from the driveway. I haven't even left my chair. It's done. The car is gone. I'm holding a check. Anyway, Carvana, give it a whirl. Love ya! So good, you'll want to leave a voicemail about it. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up these mail fly. This episode is brought to you by Booking.com. Booking.com offers a wide array of hotels and vacation rentals across the US. So you can find exactly what you're booking for. There's literally something for everyone, even those who are impossible to please. Whether you're booking for yourself, your partner, your picky teens, your sleep light, Ryzerly mom, or your high maintenance group chat, you can find exactly what you're booking for. For me, when I'm booking a stay, I already know I need a few very specific things. I'm talking blackout curtains because I hate waking up to sunlight, a comfy bed that actually feels like a hotel bed, and enough space so I don't feel cramped after a long day. And if I'm booking with my girlfriends, it's a whole different checklist. We're looking for a place with room to spread out, somewhere close to restaurants and the latest nightclubs, and honestly, just a stay that fits everyone's vibe without compromise. That's why I love that if I can find my perfectsdownbooking.com, anyone can. Find exactly what you're booking for, booking.com, booking.yeah. Book today on the site or in the app. JD Vance continues to back, losing policy after losing policy, especially Victor Orban in Hungary, and here to discuss, JD Vance's losing streak is Jason Stanley. He is a professor of American Studies and Philosophy at the University of Toronto's Monk School. He is the author of several books, including Erasing History, How Fascists Rewrite the Past to Control the Future, and How Fascism Works. JD Vance went to Hungary to campaign for Victor Orban, and he lost. Let's watch him speak about this devastating, embarrassing, very important loss. Drink some fascist tears with Professor Jason Stanley and I. Play the clip from Vox. You also campaigned for Victor Orban in Hungary, and he lost that race, defeated after 16 years in power. Your thoughts about whether it was worth it to go support Victor Orban in that race, considering he lost significantly, and he's one of the only European leaders who supports Vladimir Putin. Well, first of all, Brett, I think that Victor Orban is a great guy who's done a very good job. I think that his legacy in Hungary is transformational. 16 years fundamentally changing that country. But one of the reasons why we decided to do that, Brett, is not because we can't read polls. We certainly knew there was a very good chance that Victor would lose that election. We did it because he's one of the few European leaders we've seen who's been willing to stand up to the bureaucracy in Brussels that has been very, very bad for the United States. So, for example, when you see a European bureaucrat go after an American company, sometimes the only vote no, the only vote to protect that American interest has been Victor Orban. I've heard enough. I've heard enough. And I'm sure that Jason Stanley has heard enough. You have written a new piece in Zeteo, which is really incredible. I encourage all of you to go read it. What do you make of this? Our vice president campaigning for a autocrat abroad and then having to face plant on Fox News. Yeah, I mean, our vice president and our president have interfered in a foreign election on behalf of an autocrat who's incredibly close to Vladimir Putin. He has told Vladimir Putin. He's he's there for him, essentially. This is Vladimir Putin's closest ally in Europe. He has Vladimir Putin's back. And, you know, have you ever seen foreign interference like this? Have you ever seen the president and the vice president of the United States go campaign for a foreign leader? You know, much less a foreign leader with these kinds of connections to our enemies and the enemies of democracy worldwide. So so this is really remarkable what has happened. And and what we've learned from this is that Victor Arban's Hungary. And I guess I mean, what many of us already know. But Victor Arban's Hungary was kind of a nerve center for the global fascist movement. So this is what's really interesting to me and an opportunity for Democrats to message. The Republicans where I grew up, we're all like, you know, we're all about America and the founding fathers and its founding documents. And we're all about national security. And then the Republican modern day Republican Party and their think tanks, the Heritage Foundation, look to a newly formed autocracy in Eastern Europe for inspiration, flushing down 250 years of democracy. Number one, how painfully unoriginal that is. And number two, how inherently un-American it is. But what got them going was how brilliantly Orban recycled as you write so eloquently in your article, all of the scapegoats, women, LGBTQ plus minorities, immigrants. And one of his first areas of attack were institutions, specifically universities. Will you speak to that? So that we have in the United States imitated Orban's playbook. Let's start with the media first. Orban used the government to force the media into the hands of his of his allies and supporters. So 80 percent of the Hungarian media is owned by by Orban's supporters. So so what we're seeing that here in the United States as Larry Ellison, one of one of Trump's oligarchs is essentially being given Tic-Toc, CBS, now CNN. So we're seeing the parallel takeover of of the media institutions. This this this use of the government. Here's something that's un-American. This use of the government to bully the private sector, to adopt to adopt essentially far right values. So we saw this with DeSantis's attack on Disney. That was very or bomb. It was very or bond to target Disney for not going along with the don't say gay act. This this is what Orban has done. He's used the apparatus of the state to target to target the scapegoats, to target particularly anything associated with LGBTQ Hungarian life. Now, you know, and he's done this, he's done this to supposedly to preserve the white Christian family to who he says are the most persecuted people on earth. He's done this, you know, to save whiteness and Christianity and European civilization. And this is exactly what JD Vance has taken over the whole idea that you have to preserve white Christianity. Europe must preserve Christianity and whiteness, preserve European civilization. This was Orban's whole line. Now, what it was, in fact, was simply smoke and mirrors to disguise enriching his family and friends. So so that's really what Magier took advantage of here. Magier took advantage of the fact that Hungarian voters have now seen that owning the libs is not won't make up for jobs. This was just entirely or Bams entire thing was using owning the leg libs to hide stuffing money in his family's pockets and the pockets of the people he grew up with. So so so it was kind of like this. This it's really this basic strategy, the basic strategy of saying, I'm going to vilify LGBTQ citizens. I'm going to vilify trans people. I'm going to vilify race mixing. He actually said that, you know, a country that allows race mixing is no longer a nation. This is this is the man the Republican Party has taken as its model. This man who said who who bows and scrapes the Vladimir Putin, who says that race mixing is the destruction of a nation. This is the man who JD Vance and Donald Trump and the entire conservative infrastructure has to have taken as their model. And furthermore, he doesn't even mean it. Not that it's good to be a Nazi, but he doesn't even see it. It's like his real purpose is to stuff his family's pockets with money. And that's what the Hungarian people finally cottoned on to. They finally were like, wait, you know, you know, we're being told to hate on trans women and we're being told, you know, OK, we're going to take your jobs away. We're going to destroy the economy. We're going to like Iraq giant villas to Orban's family and friends with taxpayer money. And we're going to spend hundreds. We're going to spend, I don't know how much huge amounts of Hungarian taxpayer money on fellowships for American conservative writers, American conservative politicians, Tucker Carlson. That's what Hungary became. Hungary became a place where the far right everywhere could come and get Hungarian taxpayer money to sit around and talk about how they were going to dismantle democracy and stuff money into the hands of oligarchs. OK, explain this to me, Jason. So Benjamin Netanyahu sent his son to campaign for Viktor Orban. So you have Trump, Vance and Netanyahu all endorsing Viktor Orban. Viktor Orban also deployed anti-Semitic tropes as escape goat so that he could plunder and transfer money to his people. You specifically mentioned in your article the use of George Soros, which is often deployed here in right wing circles, that he's a globalist, this Jewish man that controls all the media furthermore. Orban had images of Zelensky up everywhere, making fun of him for being Jewish or scapegoating him for being Jewish. So explain this to me, Jason. Yeah, I mean, wait, wait, let me ask you, explain this like I'm five. Netanyahu Netanyahu is all about we have to stamp out anti-Semitism. Yet he goes and endorses a man who weaponizes anti-Semitism to win elections. Do these people believe in anything? No, they believe in Israel is, you know, backs anti-Semitism, one version of anti-Semitism everywhere. This sort of classic Nazi anti-Semitism was that we Jewish people are responsible for liberalism or responsible for globalism or responsible for universal values or responsible for LGBTQ rights and feminism. That's Nazi anti-Semitism. That's the protocols of the elders of Zion. That's 20th century anti-Semitism, the most deadly anti-Semitism that we Jews have ever faced, said we Jewish people are not real nationalists. We're globalists. We're we're employing these liberal cosmopolitan values to destroy nations from within. And Netanyahu and Netanyahu's Israel and in fact, Israel for a long time, a lot of Israel's state policy has been directed towards attacking this version. This this this has been basically lining up behind this version of anti-Semitism, targeting Jewish people who believe in liberal universal cosmopolitan values. This was the anti-Semitism of national socialism that connected my people to universalism. We should be connected to universalism. We stood for social justice throughout the 19th century, throughout the 20th century. We have stood globally for universal justice. What Soros did was was create democratic institutions all across Eastern Europe. That that that spread liberal humanist values. That was his goal, freedom of speech, free inquiry. That's what Central European did. European University did in in Hungary. It was a center of excellence for free inquiry. Yes, it had a gender studies program. But as we've seen from toxic masculinity all across the world, gender studies is probably the most important department in any university. So it studies what's actually happening. So so this. So what what Netanyahu is doing is he's he's backing the kind of anti-Semitic attacks that really are at the foundation of Nazism. Nazism is not the Nazis were were not against an ethno nationalist Jewish state until the mid 1930s. They were for evicting us from Europe to to live in our own state. So so Netanyahu has been down with attack with this anti-Semitic attack of attacking globalists and cosmopolitan. And you know, and that is really global. You know, Jewish people have been central to liberalism. Jewish people. We have been central to social justice. So Netanyahu has joined or bond in this attack against universalism and liberalism, because Net certainly Netanyahu's Israel does not stand for universalism and liberalism. It allies itself with other ethno nationalist nations today. And so and also Netanyahu is an autocrat who's been in power forever. And so all these autocrats are allied with each other. It's part of the global fascist network. And Hungary has been essential to this global fascist network. Hungary has stuffed the courts. That's what we're seeing, you know, in Trump's America. We're seeing this utter stuffing of the courts with, you know, circuit courts, courts at every appeals and courts at every level were the takeover of the media that we're witnessing in the United States. The attacks on universities that that really was pioneered by source, the linking of universities to free inquiry, to liberal humanist values. You know, you do it in different ways in different countries. Orban focused very specifically on LGBTQ issues. So that really, I mean, Putin and Orban really, you know, strongly leaned into that. We have to recognize that when you attack LGBT communities now, it's an attack on democracy. It's a direct attack on democracy because everyone wants to take down a democracy and create a corrupt kleptocracy goes after LGBTQ populations as a scapegoat. So this this this structure that we're so familiar with now in the United States, this came from Hungary and the world's autocrats looked to look to Hungary as a way of as a model as as as the model. And when I watched in Hungary over the years, you know, I first went to Hungary in 2009 when it was like, you know, the rising cool Europe, Budapest was the rising cool European city and watching Orban just destroy Hungary's future in order to enrich himself and his cronies has has been tragic. And this this this model now that of of using owning the lives of saying you guys get owning the lives, you know, and we get your money and your economic future. This model, that's what a hungry pioneer and we should just be sick of it. So that was that was interesting to me in your article that here's the bargain. And initially it works. You tell people, OK, you get to hate on these groups of people. You can hate on LGBTQ plus people. You can hate on Jewish people. You can hate on Muslim immigrants. And that's the exchange that we're giving you. We're making that normal. But this was defeated. And I think about this kind of stuff a lot now that we're living in this fascist takeover in the United States. How are we going to defeat it? And in Hungary, we can look at how fascism took over. But now it appears as though it's been defeated and it was defeated from the center, a center right candidate. And I've been on here saying a lot like, you know, how are we going to defeat Donald Trump and fascism from the center? What is your take on that? How he was defeated from the center and how it for my listeners, where we are in defeating our own fascism, is that from the center? Is it from the left? What's your take on all of that, Professor Stanley? Yes, absolutely. That's the question we have to address right now. I think what we see. So here's here's what Magyar did. And let me first sort of explain what Magyar did in his campaign and then talk about how I view the the moral of this, given a principle that I think is utterly fundamental, that you don't you don't sacrifice any scapegoats. You don't drop our trans friends and fellow citizens and fellow human beings. You don't drop our protecting our our immigrants. Our immigrant neighbors, you don't you don't you don't go in for for, you know, solidarity cannot take the form of abandoning anyone. So Magyar himself is is quite right way. He's he's not pro LGBTQ. He's he's anti immigrant. He's anti Muslim, I would say he didn't campaign on any event. He campaigned on one thing, corruption. It's enough. Let's return to the rule of law. He said, you know, you know, he pointed at the things that all the cultural politics was meant to distract you from. How do scapegoats work? Scapegoats work by taking groups of people that that are small and politically powerless and and unifying different groups of people who might be opposed to each other like rich people and poor people and and and having them all say, OK, look, look at that scapegoat. That's your real enemy. So that's how scapegoat politics works. Then maybe you can get black people and and white and white racists to vote for the same candidate because they're all being directed against trans people or immigrants. So so so what Magier did is he said, look at what's happening. They're using that to enrich themselves. There's using that to give four hundred thousand dollar fellowships to to right wing American Christians or whatever. You know, they're using that to to fund global fascism worldwide. They're using that to buy villas for their families and take all the state contracts. So he focused on what the scapegoat pop scapegoat politics is always there to to hide corruption. It's always there to to direct your attention away from the real problematic minority, the billionaires. Now, that's a minority that does cause problems. That's a minority that is absolutely destroying our nation. So the goal of scapegoat politics is to direct our attention away from that. And what Magier did was just focus on that. He said, look at what's happening to the country. Look at all the corruption. And so that kind of message, I think we're seeing some version of that from Mayor Mamdani, just to say that. Right. Exactly. Who's saying, OK, let's focus on the fact that we should have jobs. We should have we should have pre-K. We should have affordability. Let's focus on that and let's see on whether all this attack on, you know, lower middle class university professors is helping us in any way. Let's just drop all that and focus on making our material lives better. And that's what that's what Magier did in Hungary. We're if we're going to defeat fascism, we're going to have to work in a coalition together with people we disagree with. You know, look at how fast that look at our scape. That's how scapegoat politics works. You get people together, you know, you get you get, you know, you use toxic mass masculinity to unify men who are going to be losing their healthcare and losing their jobs and maybe having some of their family deported. That you create you scapegoats to create solidarity. Well, we to defeat fascism are going to have to create solidarity. We're going to have to tell we're going to have to work with social conservatives. We're going to have to say social conservatives. We know you don't like tolerance of trans people. But first of all, we have to emphasize that doesn't affect your freedom. You are free to to worship in your houses of worship. You're free to live as you like. And and other Americans are free should be free to live as they like. Their lives don't threaten your lives. And secondly, we're in this together. We're all, you know, the fascists work with solidarity. We're going to work with each other to get rid of of corruption. If that and that's going to mean working with people we disagree with. And that's what we have to do. I'm going to need you to counsel me through that because I don't want to work sometimes with bigots. And so that's a really good reminder that we need to. We don't have to compromise our own personal morals, but we have to see the greater good and freedom for all as a North star. OK, just a little bit of gossip. Now that Victor Orban has lost, do they just like is he done to the Putin's? Is he done to the Trump's? Is it just like you're a loser hit the bricks, buddy? You are no longer helpful. Did they just drop him just like they did Pam Bondi's image in the trash can at the DOJ? No, because Orban has stacked the courts. He owns the media. He still has immense power in in Hungary. Now, they did win a two thirds majority in parliament, so they can change the Constitution. Orban regularly changed the Constitution. He just changed it to whatever he wanted to read. Ironically, you know, and when he first came in, he created a new fundamental law that was about, you know, you know, Bater saying the whole idea is great replacement theory that you need more Hungarian babies. So the whole Constitution was going to be oriented around the Hungarian. Let me jump in there. And the birth rate dropped after this, right? I saw in your article, like he's like, hey, we all need to breed. And so I'm going to make the conditions great for everybody to breed and have all these families. And then when people don't feel safe, they don't breed. Yeah, well, nobody wants to live in a loser country. And if you if you get rid, if you attack LGBTQ people there, that that, you know, you can't have creativity. You can't have you can't have a creative free society without LGBTQ citizens. Who the hell wants to live in a city without without without without diversity and creativity? Or Jason, I could say he wants to live around a bunch of boring, straight people. You don't want to live once they raise their kids around a society without with just where you're you're eliminating, you know, where you're right, right. Exactly. And so so so it just Hungary just became this dull, you know, this this dull, boring place with that was completely corrupt. And so, you know, do you think there's potential criminal as this charges or investigations into Victor Orban as this new prime minister and his new government take over? Will we see that that full arc come realize that he committed crimes? Or did he do all of this corruption legally? I well, well, what happens in this structures is you change the laws. So you you do the corruption legally because you change the laws. So that's like like look at what happened in the United States when they're doing all this crazy illegal stuff, but they're. Interpreting the laws in a certain way and they stack the courts. So the key thing is they're going to have to replace the Orban judges, which, you know, that's the problem. And that's always the problem. Yeah, that's a problem with Poland as well. And that peas the law and justice party stack the courts. So we have all these these justices in the United States now, who are especially in Trump, too, who are just really, really extreme, really owned by the billionaires and oligarchs and, you know, so and really ideologically out there. So so they're going to have to find some way of of of of they're going to have to change the laws back to they're going to change the Constitution to adjust Orban's kleptocratic constitution. They're going to have to change the funding structures. They're going to have to return institutions to independence. Universities aren't, you know, you know, Central European. I mean, the damage Orban did to Hungary. I mean, Central European University was had the brightest future of any European university, and he shut the university town down and drove it out of the country. I mean, that is like, you know, the shock people had when other kids were being raised learning Hungarian and learning in Hungarian schools and these professors from all over the world. And suddenly they had to go to Austria and change their their 10 year old to switch from Hungarian to German. You know, I mean, you know, imagine like ejecting Harvard out of of of the United States. It does look like that's what Trump wants to do. So so it's what we learn from Orban's Hungary is these fascists, they destroy their own countries first. They're they're in it to destroy their own countries. They hate their countries and they want to just, you know, if you're attacking your LGBT community, you're attacking creative, you know, just just a powerful creative source, you're attacking your own citizens and you're attacking freedoms, you're attacking your great universities, you're attacking your business community, you're attacking the independence of your institutions, you're attacking your country. And that's what Orban did. He destroyed his country. Will he pay for that? Well, that depends upon how much they can restore the independence of the judiciary, the independence of the media, the independence of the business sector. You know, like, like we it should have been a warning sign for everyone when DeSantis went after Disney, you know, DeSantis. That's the Orban thing. You go after the business people. That's what they're doing in the United States. That's what this is, you know, this is not just about LGBTQ Americans. This is about this is about economic freedom as well, because they targeted the business sector for a DE that whole strategy of targeting the business sector for DEI. That's pioneered in Hungary. That is not American attacking businesses for for trying to have a diverse workforce and a diverse leadership. That is Hungarian and that is interfering in the private sector to to promote, you know, white Christian. That and I think we'll leave it at that. But I just want to point out to the Democrats that happened to watch this. There is content rich messaging that the Republican Party looks to people in Hungary who want to tear their own country apart. That is their inspiration. This is the layup messaging all of this bullshit with them with the flag and we support the troops and the founders and all that is bullshit. They're liars. All right. Professor Jason Stanley, my friend, save travels. We'll see you back here very soon. Thank you, Jennifer. If you dread dealing with your insurance more than getting stuck in an elevator with an overshare. Bamburrito for lunch. You have insura noia. You should have in J.M. They go to great lengths to do what's best for their policyholders. Insurance underwritten by NJM insurance company and its subsidiaries.
