544: How Good Men Lose Their Moral Compass

This is Jocko podcast number 544 with echo Charles and me, Jocko willing good evening echo Good evening now the last podcast we discussed we're kind of discussing how people learn and It was focused on that sort of individual People learning skills But while I was reading some background information about that I found an interesting article about organizational learning that not only had some interesting information about learning but Being a learning organization, but also it gave some really good knowledge about Some of the psychological and emotional challenges that a military unit and thereby any team maybe at a less extreme level can face in stressful environments and also, you know morally ambiguous environments, so when you get into this this is a article called real Which is italicized real? Lessons learned for leaders after years of war and it's written by Lieutenant Colonel Joe Doddy or Dodie who's a PhD US Army retired and Master Sergeant Jeffrey E Fenlison or Fenlason US Army so couple guys put this together and they say this the past ten years Plus of war have provided numerous opportunities for the Army to capture lessons learned for future leader development both officers and for both Officers and NCOs how many and which of these lessons the army will translate into actual content curriculum pedagogy in the army Schools or leader development programs is unknown, so we've gathered all this information How much of is actually going to make it into the curriculum that's getting put out this article examines the army as a learning Organization recommends the army include studies on human the human dimension in leader development schools and programs I couldn't agree more. We've said it since day one on this podcast. This is about human nature Leadership is about human nature life is about human nature So they go into a little bit of how we learn because the army is a learning organization is imperative that it learned from its history both the good and the bad Such common reflective practices as after action action reviews a ours talk about those all the time leader feedback coaching and performance counseling all speak to a learning organization Top-down and bottom-up forums that disseminate and share information from the army to the army things like Company command calm platoon leader calm and I used to frequent those things. I Haven't looked at them. I'm gonna check them out again our forums that share lessons learned of best practices at the grassroots and junior officer levels All of these forums empower users to share insights and lessons learned But that information may or may not become institutionalized in formal instructional educational or training material So you can have people talking about stuff But if you don't capture it and turn it into some kind of curriculum or doctrine that people can then follow You can make the same mistakes So we got to be careful of that and you got to be careful that inside your organization Got people talking about what they could done or will they make some change but they don't capture it It's a problem In his seminal work on the subject the fifth discipline Peter sang or singe One of the leading teachers and proponents of learning organizations defines a learning organization as one Quote where people continually expand their capacity create results that truly they truly desire Where new and expansive patterns of thinking are nurtured where collective aspiration is set free and where people are continually Learning how to learn together He adds that learning organizations are possible because and he's a quote Not only is it in our nature to learn but we love to learn Most of us at one time or another have been part of a great team a group of people who function together an extraordinary way Who trusted one another who complemented one another's strengths and compensated for one another's limitations Who had common goals that were larger than individual goals who produced extraordinary results? The team became great the team that became great didn't start off great It learned how to produce extraordinary results Sange proposes that learning organizations be grounded in quote developing three core learning capabilities fostering aspiration developing a reflective conversation and understanding complexity Okay, so he goes into a section here where he's talking about you know some of these Developments of doctrines and there's another guy he brings up David Colb Talks about his learning style style models. So there's some there's some Scholarly type information. I am going to skip over But it's good it's good information, but I'm gonna skip through it if you want it you can you can read the entire article yourself I'm gonna get to some of the meat here Completing the mission is only one part of a soldier's requirements in the operational environment Thinking back about what happened and using that information and knowledge to influence subsequent actions For the better is another important requirement and this equates to learning for performance The very simple habit forming attitude thinking back and acting forward that's kind of a theme in this article thinking back and Acting forward fosters aspiration Develops reflective Conversations and helps us understand complexity army stories and vignettes often capitalized on this powerful learning technique If we make an effort to deliberately habitually reflect as we act real learning will occur. So this is why at echelon front we're so We we we Encourage using a debrief so much. That's what all this stuff is is doing a debrief And you may have heard me say this lately the the idea of being intentional. What does that mean? I doesn't just mean I'm living my life intentionally like it doesn't just mean that right? It means plan execute debrief. That's what it means plan execute debrief You come up with a plan you go execute it then you debrief if you don't debrief you don't know what you did wrong You're not gonna learn from it. You're not gonna get better. So we have to plan execute debrief and That's what this is encouraging as well Donald shone's work on reflective prop practices further supports the notion of thinking back and acting forward It discusses organizations that focus on reflecting and Journaling about experiences to improve performance the common denominator is systemic reflection at the individual and team level a habitual team or Individual after-action review in which soldiers and leaders make a conscientious effort To learn so that they will not repeat mistakes of the past again. This is a debrief, but isn't it interesting? How little this happens we work with companies all the time and we say oh did you do a debrief for this? 80 million dollar project that you did no debrief did you do a debrief for this? extreme failure Tactical failure that happened. Did you do a debrief? No, not really. Did you had a big market win? Did you do a debrief? No, we didn't do debrief. You had a big market failure. Did you do a debrief? No, we didn't do debrief we hired someone and they're outstanding. Did you do a debrief on what you looked for? No, we didn't did you see I'm going with that's right So we don't debrief and you know what this can be a little bit tricky But debriefing your kids Or having them debrief you This is something that more people need to do because kids are like you know just You know goldfish goldfish brain goldfish memory next play, you know, Zan. Yeah, they're just onto the next thing So they're not learning You need it you need to think and think about what happened So debrief that's what we're talking about and the idea of Journaling to debrief yourself what happened and what went wrong and what went right and what can be done better? That's a powerful thing. I I have not done that. I Have not sat down for you know, oh this thing and and journaled out But what I have done is when I'm debriefing the team. Oh, here's I've right down my five bullet points my seven bullet points my three bullet points Makes you so much better There's a few of those things that That you've kind of brought up that That aren't standard or whatever but it's like dang when you think about it if you do these things they help so much Well, so much, but they're not like, you know what another one was how you guys Like you compared seal training with I think might have been like professional sports And then also like compared it to like the what they call like I think might have been like the police academies or something like that Where? For an operation or for a deployment you guys do this work up in this training like so much training right for this thing and a football team For example, they got a game on Saturday. Hmm not to mention the whole fall camp They just train train train train train. So even if you go week to week, it's a Let's say five days of training in one game. So that's a five to one ratio training to performance, right? but We'll say in the private sector. There's not that much training, you know, of course if you don't reframe things and make everything training which you can yeah, I won't say easily do but you can absolutely do that You can do it So yes, you need to reframe things so that there is training taking place. Otherwise, and yeah law enforcement is the classic example Law enforcement, you know, they work their hours and they where do they where does the head shed want them when they're working? They want them on the streets patrolling. Yeah, but that means they have no room to train and I can guarantee you I think it should be 20% I think 20% of the police time should be spent training So you work for four days on the street and then you get one day where you're training You know, it doesn't need to be broken down like that, but 20% of the time and I promise you I promise you Who do you want to come and help you when things are going sideways? the person that's trained all Whole a whole bunch of time or the person that just been you know beat down by Patrol patrol patrol patrol and deal with and look they're learning when they're doing stuff Especially hopefully because they're doing debriefs But if you don't even have time to debrief like you and I go on a call you're my partner We go on a call something goes sideways. We have to handle it. We get done and then what do we do? We go back on we go back to our next call when we go to our next call. We didn't even debrief Not even on the Friday. We work for four days straight. We came say hey remember on Wednesday when this happened You're like, yeah, dude, I feel I felt like I could have done this better Yeah, it would have helped me a lot, but I also dropped the ball here, but thank you for doing this Oh, I didn't even notice that you noticed that. Yeah, it really helped out. Yeah, so boom if we're not doing that at all That's a real problem. Yeah Yeah, I remember and I forget if you said this or I just thought this where we're kind of crunching the numbers where you're like 20% should be training right for the list of the police department will say and So what would you rather would you rather if a you know scenario with like a bunch of police that are required? Do you want eight eight trained guys like highly trained guys or ten? Not so trained guys, you know, and yeah, that makes sense and you're right. So 20% of training training training that's so that's real intentional right like training and then when you're working That's training to technically but especially if you do that part intentionally, but here's the thing with the working part because if you compare to jiu-jitsu right where let's say The competition the competition's kind of like training like you're learning a lot in competition You know, especially if you treat it as a training opportunity So yeah, you can do it, but in let's say the police force some days It's like super like training, you know, some days you're not really getting that much Activity will say same saying and it's less like controllable But yeah, if you treat it intentionally you can learn everything you possibly can even from those light days I'm saying so yeah, that made sense. Yeah, and You and I go to a call something goes sideways or it doesn't go smooth If we spend five minutes debriefing or ten minutes debriefing, but we learn exponentially Amount an exponential amount compared to if we just go to an extra call Yeah, and that by the way that can all be included in the 20% You know, I mean, maybe it's maybe it's you still work a normal schedule But at the end of the day you have an hour and a half to train. Yeah, yeah like that's you know That's all good that totally makes sense because in football. It's like we will watch tape of the game So it's kind of that same thing. You know debrief hundred percent. Yeah, that's like a analytical Jack All right fast forward a little bit lessons learned for Commanders and leaders operation Iraqi freedom. Oh, I have an operation enduring freedom. Oh, yeah have provided countless stories from which to learn Robert Miller Our staff sergeant Robert Miller or salvator good goon to private first class Ross McGuinness Deplay displayed selfless service loyalty and personal courage as if countless others and the by the way those are all metal of honor recipients countless other Soldiers and leaders named and unnamed who set the example taking the initiative performed courageously and chosen the harder right rather than the easier Wrong, so he's setting up like hey that we do a lot of good stuff. Lots of great examples out there But then he goes on to say however as Is often the case with human nature much learning and development comes because of Failures or negative psychological and emotional events without question the vast majority of soldiers in combat have done and are doing the right thing Under difficult circumstances, but we also know that bad things are going to happen They always do and our adversary adversaries will use the media the internet social network to cleverly exploit the slightest misstep by us forces for their own strategic and tactical purposes, right? That's what they're gonna do you make a little you can do a hundred things right you do one thing wrong by the way if you have a company and you have all these great Yelp reviews and then you Throw the one customer gets a wild or doesn't get treated right They're gonna get all kinds of views when they write their crappy Yelp review So you need to keep that in mind Analysis of the unfortunate and tragic us incidents that have occurred in oh, I f and oh yeah I've provided common themes insights and lessons learned That leaders should be aware of and look for both in themselves and their soldiers Now when this is a very good thing to remember because it's kind of talking about the debrief here the purpose here is not to Dwell on or highlight the bad stuff. That's not the purpose It's not like oh, we're gonna rehash a bunch of bad stuff for no reason or we're not gonna dwell on it It's not to second-guest decisions. It's not to criticize with the benefit of hindsight. That's a real easy one, right? It's not to discuss the personalities involved in the events So now we're we're going on a little witch hunt activity and it's not to rehash or retail stores Our purpose is to help army leaders learn really learn We want to capture and articulate what can and arguably should be put in leaders kit bags In this case there are hearts and brains in terms of the human dimension of war to better equip them to look out for and not Make the same mistakes made in the past We also want to raise awareness of common themes that have occurred in combat over the years and will continue to Come for years as well What follows are brief summaries of some high profile cases from oh e f and oh I f so now it rattles off Again the high profile Negative cases we talked about metal of honor recipients. This is the other end of the spectrum The kill team a small group of soldiers in the second infantry division allegedly formed a kill team in late 2009 or early 2010 Some of the team members allegedly killed two or three unarmed non-threatening Afghans then staged the scenes to make it look as if the deaths were combat related They also allegedly committed other violations of regulations and law such as collecting war trophies and Photographing team members with dead bodies The Haditha killings in November 2005 in Haditha, Iraq 24 Iraqis were allegedly killed by US Marines as part of a retribution attack After a convoy from 3rd Battalion 1st Marines was hit by an improvised explosive device that killed Lance Corporal Miguel Terazis and severely wounded another Marine at least three officers were Officially reprimanded for failing to properly report and investigate the killings all criminal charges against six Marines were dropped And one Marine was prosecuted and found not guilty The squad leader was recently given a plea deal and found guilty of negligent dereliction of duty And I've talked about that one before because this is November 2005 when this happened And by the way as it pointed out these Marines were cleared like they looked into it But there was such a spotlight on civilian casualties So when when we arrived in the spring of 2006 in Ramadi this spotlight was strong Next one the canal killings three non-commissioned officers from the 172nd Brigade Combat Team were found guilty of executing four Iraqi detainees on Or around April 2007 these quote canal killings were allegedly a response to detainees being released After having been detained only a few days and immediately returning to the fight The next one the Samara murders Four soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division Air assault were found guilty of killing three detainees in May of 2006 during Operation Iron Triangle near Samara, Iraq Allegedly the soldiers released the detainees and then shot them to make it look like an escape attempt attempt Tiger's River Bridge incident in January of 2004 soldiers from the 4th Infantry Division Allegedly forced two Iraqis off a bridge over the Tiger's River one of the Iraqis died an officer and NCO were found guilty of crimes related to this incident During the investigation. It was alleged that the battalion commander wanted to cover up the bridge incident. You can't cover stuff up I'm gonna tell you that right now. It doesn't work If you think you're gonna be able to cover something up you're wrong The only people that don't talk about what happened is dead are dead If they're alive they're gonna tell somebody so you can't do a cover-up it doesn't work And you need to tell your people that Mumadiyah murders and rape in March 2006 near mumadiyah Iraq four soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division Air assault Killed four Iraqi non-combatants and raped one of them before killing her all four soldiers were found guilty of rape and murder Abu Ghraib 11 soldiers were found guilty of detainee abuse and other crimes in connection with this well publicized case in Abu Ghraib prison and Then Bagram detainee abuse in the spring of summer and summer of 2002 at Bagram Air Airbase Afghanistan soldiers were allegedly involved in detainee abuse cases To which were featured on a CNN documentary taxi to the dark side at least 15 personnel were charged with crimes and five were convicted so those are again the high-profile cases and You know again they mentioned this already the vast majority of the soldiers sailors and Marines are out there trying to do the right thing But they're in tough environments. They're gonna talk about how this stuff can occur and It also to me it's It kind of shows you how much scrutiny there is on our troops That these incidents they don't happen very often and when they do they get rolled up even when they try and cover them up Back to the document the eight incidences briefly described above along with others from all conflicts Most notably me lie incident in Vietnam 1968 which we covered on this podcast Highlights what can happen in war clearly the incidents are not a reflection of our army our professional ethic or the seven army values In addition, they may not be examples of Leadership failures they do indicate I Disagree with that like this stuff happens There's a leadership failure. You got people raping and murdering murdering civilian populace. There's a leadership problem I'm not sure what they mean by that They do not indicate a need for increased leader education about the oh sorry They do indicate a need for increased leader education about indicators of ethics abdication So this is when what what shows you signs that maybe people are forgetting about their ethics? Again, that was so we that's one of them Most horrible things about the me lie massacre because these dudes were just regular dudes from you know from all different backgrounds, but you know a lot of guys from really good normal backgrounds But they lost their minds they lost their moral code they lost their direction their moral compass Additionally one we must face the reality that the military is a reflection of society and one of the incidences The rape and murder at moma dia Iraq was likely in part a result of criminal elements within the ranks Okay, so you you can have some just straight up criminals and By the way, you got to watch out for that and but and remember when we had Jordan Peterson on here And I said I said hey if you're in charge of a platoon. There's gonna be a sociopath in there Because I had said I'd actually said this to a group of army soldiers So actually a group of army officers and they all kind of looked at me like I was Like I like no no and then I so I had Dr. Jordan Peterson on and I said hey, is this you think this is accurate? And he said sorry said like he goes how big is a platoon I got 40 or 50 guys and he said oh Yeah, like one sociopath in there for sure, especially what he said was There's a whole bunch of people that Will not be sociopaths and Therefore would not join the military. There's like a bunch of hippies and you know what whatever hippies and flower children that they're They're not gonna be sociopaths and they're not that that half of the group or whatever quarter the group They're not even in the group. Yeah, so when you get down to just 40 people that are open to the they're at least at a minimum They're opening the idea of killing the enemy, right? If you're an infantry platoon, you're at least open to that idea so anyone that's not open to that idea is In my professional psychological opinion not gonna be a sociopath if they're not open to it So now you take all of a sudden you take 40 people Because he said the normal numbers are like one in a hundred. So yeah, probably even bigger than that So you may have just criminal people in the ranks That's gonna happen which get a watch out for is that that person starts, you know swaying the opinions of other people so Going back to the documenter most important from a learning perspective Is the fact that the incidents were the result of some if not all of Nine psychological and emotional constructs that can be a consequence of stressful complex uncertain and highly Volatile combat environment. So here we're gonna get to these things that can lead to this happening these types of things happening The nine constructs are and by the way, it's really interesting how You can find you like we're talking about war crime activity, but these are also just sort of how people negotiate with themselves or Convince themselves that they're doing the right thing. Yeah, it doesn't necessarily have to be a war crime It can be like I don't need to I don't need to change the ink in the copy machine That's not on me like you know what I'm saying. Oh, yeah, even these little things. Yeah, so number one authorization Authorization is the perception that the chain of command sanctions approves or directs a particular behavior I was just following orders or this is what my leader will expect me to do By the way, what you gotta watch out for is You if you have a behavior as a leader, that's pretty much authorization So if you show up late other people gonna show up late You forget gear other people gonna forget here You you use bad language other people gonna use bad language by the way this includes your kids Yeah, think you're gonna swear around your kids and they're not gonna swear it. No, no, no, they're gonna swear So you've got to remember that your behavior authorizes it within your team Next one Transfer of responsibility transfer of responsibility is the perception that some other person bears the responsibility for an unethical act IE someone else's responsible. Hey, this is not me Next one Routinization Routinization occurs when soldiers gradually Occulturate to unethical actions or abuses unethical behavior simply me becomes routine It's just what we do an athlete who has taken performing Performance enhancing drugs for years or teenagers paying for one movie and watching two or three in the Cineplex are civilian examples The routine and daily execution of the final solution by Nazi Germany During World War two is history's most horrendous example of routine inization This is where you just make these little things and you just kind of let them slide No, yeah, and this is what's tough as a leader because you can't harp on Little things that don't matter, but you also can't just let little things that don't matter turn into big things Yeah, you know if I let you get away with you know at the end of the night where uh We're cleaning the kitchen and we're putting away the the steaks that we didn't cook and You know you grab like one of the small steaks And you're gonna take it home and eat it, but you didn't pay for it And you know I could be like look man. We sold 280 steaks. The echo's been working here all day you know I Kind of let it slide Then you do it again Then you do it again, then you do it again and a certain point you start taking two three steaks got the family to feed So you see what I'm saying. Yep. So you you have to be careful that you don't let little little Ethical Little ethical transgressions little tiny ethical transgressions become routine. Yeah you can Would imagine anyway that you can slide into criminality in real life real quick like that actually I have an example of that when I was young Maybe at 11th grade scenario. He's led into criminality. Okay, my friend. Okay, all right, and he he would shoplift and And I started with like something super smalls like candy or something like this and he you know He's like I'll just put it in his pocket or whatever and okay, so Usually like my friends that I hung out with they're not Criminals at all. They're not bad kids at all So to me or to us when he took that little piece of candy that first time I was like kind of surprised And one of the things I was surprised with is that he got away with it for some reason I mean it kind of brought it to light where I guess I was under the impression that like I don't know There's freaking like Fort Knox cameras everywhere in the freaking 7-eleven You know But he got away with it and I was like right is it that easy like you just go You know you just go in a aisle that no one's in there And you just take whatever you want in in a sly way and just walk out or whatever so I was like kind of surprised but whatever and then Slowly but surely he would start taking like more stuff and here's another part of it too where He got to the point where he was like kind of like hey You want to come see it like he was like almost like a performance And he would like and he'd be like laughing and stuff and I was like brah This is and I kept being like more and more surprised like bruh. It's like that easy. You just that's how you know You just do it Of course in hindsight, I'm like, okay People don't just start shoplifting, you know, because it's like everyone knows like bruh. That's a rule It's you know almost like the honor system is also in play along with the real law Isn't it weird when like I remember cases where like these rich real super rich like Hollywood people Would get busted for shoplifting. Yeah, we know in a rider. Yeah, I think there might be another example But I think that is the one did she go out with Johnny Depp? I don't know but She who could clearly afford like pretty much anything is in there to shoplifting. That's a weird thrill. You're looking for Yeah But it's something to pay attention to it's something to pay attention to you know when you when you let little transgressions go they will start to grow and Again as a leader you have to find the balance because you know, you're you're you're gonna have your platoons or Your team they're gonna do some things that you're like, you know what I get it, you know I'm trying to think about just a Some little thing that people will get away with you know, they're gonna get away with some little thing and you go Well, like I'm I can't harp on this little thing. It doesn't really matter that much Yeah, but you've got to figure out where that line is and you've got to make it very clear Yeah, you know, you can't you you got to make it very very clear What the line is and it's got to be hey if you do this you I Will not support you in effect. I'll go out of my way to crush you you have to do that and You know, it's a laif and I've talked about this on this podcast as a matter of fact, you know, I Got your back, right? Oh echo. I got your back. You should know I got your back like no I Got your back Almost no matter what you do, but if you do something that's illegal or immoral or an ethical I don't got your back and you need to know that. Yeah, you need to know that You know like oh, okay, like I don't got your back if you do something that's illegal immoral or an ethical You better know that I don't got your back now you make an honest mistake. I got your back all day Yeah, you want to push the envelope cool you cross the line though We got a problem and by the way, sometimes you got some things, you know, there's there's rules that we have to go I the spirit of the rule is not good and therefore you know we had interpreters in Ramadi and Interpreters aren't supposed to carry weapons and our interpreters carry weapons because Putting an interpreter in Ramadi without a weapon Was wrong it was morally wrong like it was morally wrong you asking a guy wearing an American uniform in Ramadi To go out there where look he you know, he gets separated from people whatever there's million things that can happen he just needs to maneuver across the street where you like you need a gun yeah and It was like mm-hmm. Yep. Go ahead and if I would have you know something would have happened where I would have been held accountable to that I would have they would said well Do you let your did you let your? interpreters carry weapons I would have said yes And they would have said that's against rules and I would said well, I should have gone about it better, but I could not in good conscience send a Another person that's on our team Into Ramadi without a weapon and some of them were American Some of them were foreign nationals But they were on our team and they were risking their lives to help us So yeah, the idea that and and you know what it was kind of okay But even my boss, you know, I don't know that I went through I can't remember if I ever like discussed it with him But he definitely saw pictures and knew like Knew that the guys were carrying weapons, so he probably felt the same way Mm-hmm and by the way all the you know battalion commanders that are out in the street like everyone saw wasn't like oh, you know We're trying to hide it to know. Yeah So there's things like that that are gonna happen You have to make a judgment call and really it is like would you be able to stand in front of whoever and say this is why I made this decision Yeah, and Most of the time, you know, it should be pretty aligned now Are there things that yeah, and you should be able to tell the difference between hey, I'm doing this I'm making this decision right now And I think it is completely justifiable. Yeah, and if you start feeling like I don't know if this is justifiable Then you guess what you're probably wrong. Yeah, you're probably wrong So we have to pay attention that to make sure that things aren't becoming These little these and you got to explain that to the troops to you can't just have little violations of the rules and Act like it's not there. You know, you got to say like hey our turps are carrying weapons. Yeah Like boom like that's what we're doing. Yeah, that makes sense I know it's the letter of the law. We can't do that But I'm not sending these guys who are risking their lives to go out there and help us I'm not putting them in for a mighty free in American uniform without a weapon. That's not happening so and There's and again you you're always going to run into things like that and Then you look up if you're not careful if you don't draw that line You look up and things have gone completely sideways and you got someone that's doing things. That's a immoral illegal or unethical So we got to pay attention Yeah, the the those small violations like you know, like okay There's a rule right and then let's say someone breaks the rule But just not not in a big way just in the in a teeny tiny way Just it's like the whole being on time thing where and I I violated this like when I used to work at the at the night club I'd come like one minute two minutes late, right? And then if my supervisor who was kind of my friend to if you would say anything I'd be I would kind of like gas light them a little bit and be like bruh It's like two minutes and you're making a big deal out of it. She's saying but and which I kind of got away with too, but He was actually right because it's like hey The violation or the rule isn't hey you have to come Within two minutes of this time or whatever it's like no you start at this time and you know if you're late you have Violated the rule seem saying just like shoplifting wait. What if he if he Shoplifted a jolly rancher for two cents. It's like price you going to jail for that Yep, maybe cuz he shoplifted that's the rule seem saying and so that that's like a way That that big Transgressions can happen because it starts just small and then after after a certain amount of time Where do you draw the line? So you're saying like I gotta I told you this I got in trouble for taking money at the front door as a Bouncer But like I walk up to come to the bar a hand you a 20 and you let me in right and trouble for that Yeah, so well depends how you do and depends on the club, but how we had it our club was kind of strict and You know there I what I ended up I even forget actually what I did But the report came back that I took money, but I still have made them pay the cover charge But I let them skip the line so I took money to let them skip the way Which seems good right but our place was super strict and it seems even it seemed even worse because the people that Did that that I hooked up like that for your friends. No, no, they're secret shoppers. You know what that is Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're like hired there They're the service that come in and give you like a like a what I call a candidate in Evaluation of your the service that you're giving and so yeah, I got rolled up on that me and another guy So and the thing is not that big a deal right the club got their money You know I made money on the side, but it had no bearing, you know, whatever But it was a violation the system so I got in trouble, but here's the thing though side note We actually fought back not like fought back against the owner or whatever, but we brought it to his attention. It's like hey like We the club got their money You know like this shouldn't be that big of a deal technically on a technical level, you know just like Forget about this. Oh, we're strict here thing just think about it from our perspective It seems like and he was like Brian you kind of have a point and then he allowed us to come up with a system to get money For people skipping the way system they just pay double as long as the club got their money We can run the line however we want as long as doesn't create chaos So do you have like a left line and a right line? Yep, exactly right and they just had this straight up 40 bucks to get in here 80 bucks to get in here. Yep, exactly, right, but it wasn't it wasn't a sign or nothing like that It was you know, there's one long line and then there's one teeny tiny short line and you know People come up and everyone knows like here's the line to get in right there's a little cover charge right here And then people always ask well What's this line and we say that's either the guest or the express line is for people on the list or if they want to pay They express cover which is blah blah damn express cover Yeah, but then we came up with a good system and we took and the owner was like yeah That's yeah fine with me as long as you guys don't start manipulating the line You know how like some people they'll be like hey, they'll slow roll the line So, you know, he's like don't you dare pull that kind of stuff? I think it would be an interesting I should have done this but to just sit down and think of all the rules like rules that I Either bent or broke and then what was the line between? You know, hey nope, you can't do that right like you can do this But you can't do that right because it'd be interesting to figure out what that is because I know like You know one of the things like the one I was talking like no cover up Like that's a thing that I would literally say like we are not the word. There's nothing getting covered up Yeah, if something happens, we're reporting it. That's what we're doing and That's one of those things where guys now they're not gonna come to me and say like hey this happened Can we know right they already know that which by the way keeps people in check? Yeah, because if they know they do something It's gonna be reported so you you have to it keeps people more in check if they think you know Well, you know, Jocko covered up the whatever over here. So I think we'll be good. No, no, no, that's not the way it works That's not the way it works, but it'd be good to figure out, you know, just rules Some of those like that that thing with the Terps is a good one, you know that I can remember It's a very clear. Hey, here was the rule and here's what I did and here's why I did it So did you do that? Did you ask for you know how they say asked for either you ask for permission or Say sorry or what you know that? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? It's like so Quite frankly the Terps were just carrying weapons when I got there and I was like, okay, so you guys are carrying weapons. They're like Yeah, and I'm like understood continue, you know, it was one of those things I mean, I I knew the rules The rules there was a precedent of the rules not being followed for that particular thing and So I continue I checked with the precedents I let them know that I was aware because I think that's important to let who know let the everyone like hey guys I know that this is it's not like I'm I'm I'm unaware. Oh, right your guys know. Yeah, because otherwise they go I know he's not really gonna find out or if he doesn't know like that right, I know. Yeah. Yeah, that's cool. I know So I know and I'm okay with it and here's why did you have to like answer for it or anything? No, I never did I think it was and look it might be a bad example because it was so common Hmm. Yeah, like I saw like the most of the Terps carried weapons. Yeah, I shouldn't say that Well ours definitely right actually in a way It's kind of a good example of how like how easily these you can cross over to these things because like kind of how you said Where it's like brought to you and obviously not you not just you But it was justified, but it was still a rule seem saying so once you kind of get on that side of the whole rules thing On the fence of it with the rules. It's kind of like well What else is there on that's why you if you don't address the rule? Yeah, the rule that you're breaking and why you're breaking it and you just break the rule without any explanation that Leaves room for interpretation to people go. Oh, well, you know, we don't if we do that We don't have to do this if we don't do that. We don't have to do this. Yeah. Yeah wonder like Like even like the shoplifting thing that because that goes kind of deep 2k Yeah, have you ever heard of like I knew this girl and she was in a purse store and you know clothing So I don't know Macy's or something like this and she's like, oh my gosh, and you know how like You try on stuff, right? So she had this like she had this handbag or whatever and she was like, oh my gosh This looks nice on me or whatever and then then she goes and checks out this shirt or that thing and she Accidentally left this purse on her shoulder. Just like not thinking about it, you know as she's shopping or whatever like for a long time To like can you literally put it on your shoulder and forget about it? Which I understand like think of like if you have a scarf or something, you know, or you says like you'll forget you have it Oh, yeah, and well, yes, she legitimately did well, you know, that was her story, but she's not that kind You're gonna be there, but no to understand but So she's shopping for like a long as time and then she walks out with the purse on accident She got rolled up and she's like crying. She's like, oh my gosh, this whatever But it got me thinking wait a second that can happen all the time and like you'll forget about it or like, you know, like you do Let's say you're at the grocery store or something you leave like something at the bottom of the You know like some batteries or something they get smashed You know, whatever and you walk on you realize the weight I didn't pay for that, but you're already like halfway home or something like this or you're across the parking lot It's like, all right, I'm gonna pay this like $3. I gotta walk back in go whatever it's like And you just you already technically got away with it. Yeah, right? So you roll with it. Yeah, you roll with it This phase like how many times would you estimate? Let's say just in any town USA a person would just continue to go home fully fully innocent fully forgot legitimately forgot $3 value. Yep. Say $3. I think of most people are like carrying on. Yep carrying on right? Yeah What about so you see though, by the way, I left I was I went and got groceries the other day and I left The I the opposite happened. Hmm. I like they were bagging my stuff up and I left a bag of groceries there Oh, yeah, and I got home and I was like, huh and My wife Later went to the store and she was like your husband left Yeah, the stuff here and gave credit she got they gave her credit because they had it They said well, we had to put it back, but this is what it was. Yeah. She's like they told to go get it sweet Yeah, shout out to Jensen's yeah, Jensen's supermarket. Let's go some good service And it was a couple days had gone by and they gave me the credit. Oh, that's a good little community But the $3 value they got go they got they got Mokhter as well Full full understanding unknown Where's the line John and actually I might argue that what if it was like a $50 value? Yeah, so that's I that's where I think people start you know people would have people would have various levels of What where they go? That's 50 bucks. I you know I need to get back in there and right for it or That's 50 bucks. I just got away with not having to pay 50 bucks Legitimately too like now you have to like expand the energy to adhere to some moral code that doesn't matter by the way Except for with you within you see what I'm saying so when no one's looking it's kind of like and I'm not saying hey look You're a bad person. You're a good price. It's not about that. It's about it's about where is this line drawn? Okay, so let's say if it's a $3 something right $3 value, right? You don't go in you're like my time is worth more than that, you know, whatever And then let's say it happens again a year later by the way, there should be some kind of an equivalency here Let's say you overpaid three bucks and you realize how do you go back to the store for it? Yeah, then what if it's $20 new overpay? Do you go back or like you get your bill and you got you got undercharged or you got overcharged If you got undercharged by 30 bucks. Oh, they missed the steak that I ordered. Hey guys I missed the steak or hey you double charged me a steak Those should be somewhere around the same number in my opinion, right? Yeah, because that's for me It's not even a matter of the money. It's like bro Like it has to be a pretty whether either either one of those things for me to go back in there Hey, I think here's my credit card redo the stuff. I just want to go home so my my my Problem with the scenario isn't so much like winning or losing just like inconvenience But think of the person and there's a lot of people in there and not bad It doesn't mean you're a bad person, but there are people who would be like, okay Let's say my wife is going back in there like hey you you know, I owe you $3 my wife's doing that Oh, bro, 100% of the time I'll do that especially now that I'm I think older like I actually feel better about myself If I'm like, oh wait, they didn't charge for this or you know what happened You know how you put like I don't know if you get like There's a lower part of the grocery. Yeah, we get like club soda. So we put it down there or whatever and then like sometimes You know, we'll forget it and I'll just I will feel I won't feel bad because I'm like who's getting hurt But if I go and say hey, I forgot to pay for I actually just feel better about myself. I'm such a good Do you ever do you ever think that they're uh, you're being taped like you're being video one? Oh, yeah, I'm like, bro. This is a test. This is a straight-up test like people are trying to get me Yeah, you know, I'm looking over my shoulder like oh, they got they think they're gonna get me But no, I'm gonna roll back in there because you it is bad when you think about what you just did if you're like, okay If I just did something where I'd be embarrassed if people saw it I I figure someone's taping it. Yeah matter of fact, I used to say this in Ramadhi a bit Hey, you have to assume when you're out there You have to assume that I'll just zero is videoing you as you're carrying out whatever you're doing Yeah, and by the way that was accurate a lot of times. Yeah, there was video like people would video stuff So you have to have that in your mind that whatever I'm about to do right now could be on the 24-hour news, you know headline story for the next three weeks. Yeah, you do something stupid. It could be there That's a good protocol right there. Yeah, so So where did you where or you could see this line being blurred? Okay, the soda water on the bottom of the shopping cart cashier didn't see it, right? Real quick I had I made that I gave that explanation one time to some young officers in the military What explanation the one like hey do you do assume that what you're about to do is gonna be on the front page of What do you call like the the headline story on headline news because the front page no one cares about the front page of newspaper anymore So when you're click, you know when you click on the home page of the news website and you immediately see the video Yeah, and it's gonna be you doing that thing. Yeah, and one of the kids was like You know, well that doesn't make something right or wrong, you know like it and I was I said well No, you're right, but it should give you a feeling if you're a little bit. Hmm. What should I do here? Well, take a moment and picture that this thing is good. It could still be You know, you could do something that you might be embarrassed which technically is right Yeah, meaning you could technically get away with it, but you're still kind of holding your head in shame when everyone knows That's what you did, right? You know, so it's still a good test Hey, if everyone is going to watch me do this if millions of people on the news are gonna watch me do this thing tomorrow You know, what's the deal? Yeah, do I feel good about it? so If the answers I'm not gonna feel good about it. It's it's it should give you some Some some hesitation on executing that action. That's a very useful guideline for sure Yeah, and you know when people get with people when people get rolled up to or when people get recorded doing stuff Yeah, that's a bum. Remember that whole thing with the couple that got busted at the Coldplay concert You know what I mean, that's like that's like the premier example probably of history. Yeah of hey I just got rolled I just got busted videoed doing something that I shouldn't have been doing Yeah, and if they would have had that thought their mind They wouldn't have been doing that. Yeah, and by the way when you're in a public place Well, that was crazy. Yeah, sorry. I cut you off about three minutes ago. What were you gonna say? Well? Now I'm gonna add to to where you're saying that that if you imagine that someone's videotaping you you really mind your pees and cues Even more so than you might think think because then we've talked about this where You know when you're following through doing something like on the DL or whatever There's a legitimate part of your mind. That's like that miscalculates how bad you look and miscalculates it for whatever And there's all this context in your mind or whatever and all this stuff or whatever But when you see it on a videotape or read the transcript or whatever, you know When you see it displayed from a detached perspective and you see yourself doing this you're like brah I didn't realize I looked like that for stealing all this candy or whatever you see I'm saying so it's like brah It's heavy, you know if you if you have that those guidelines in your head, bro That's gonna be probably more helpful than you think if you can remember Yeah, and and to the point of this kid that you know said well, that doesn't make something right or wrong It's like mmm, but it's an indicator And also this is another thing you know getting into the legality of things and this is something that when laif was teaching the Jocce class People I would be talking about ethics and I'd say guys you have to do What is legal? Because a lot of times You know you can justify something if you say hey echo you just make sure you do the right thing now if I say that to you What's the right thing? That's a that's a whole damn You know area gray area. Yeah, cuz what by the way what you think is the right thing might need but might not be what I think Is the right thing now? So that's why you have to make sure you're doing the legal thing Because if you're doing something illegal, we know it's wrong now Can you say can you override? What's legal in some cases? Yeah, because sometimes the spirit of the law of what we're trying to make happen Doesn't make sense in certain scenarios and so you as a leader have to be able to decide that sometimes But your baseline your baseline has to be what's legal. That's where you start from and then if you start saying well This is the legal thing to do right now But here's these nine extenuating circumstances that actually make doing the legal thing the wrong thing to do So sometimes doing the illegal the legal thing is the wrong thing to do And by the way when we teach these types of classes, we will come up with examples where you're gonna have to make a decision That is against the rules But it's the right thing to do. Yeah, so this is what happens. These are this is what makes leadership hard Oh, yeah Yeah, that oh what I was saying when you said that um As a human how easy you can slip down that little slippery slope And the the whole soda water on the bottom of the shopping cart that check out Can be a slippery slope, but you do have to cross the threshold but crossing that threshold of From moral to immoral can be very smooth transition sometimes. So the let's say, uh one instance You forget the thing another the the soda water will call it on the bottom of the shopping cart You forget it, right cashier doesn't notice And you get away with you you get to your car and you're like, oh damn And you're in the mindset, which is very common To be like, oh wait, I kind of got away with it, right? Like no one notices no harm no foul, you know, who cares Chalk it up to a score that day, you know, a little what he could come up. You see what I'm saying um And then uh, and then maybe the next time right you go through Same soda water underneath there you forget it But right at the last minute you like after you paid, right? You already paid and you're about to like push the cart out with all the bags and you realize Oh wait, you didn't ring that up, but they didn't notice you seem sane Got away with it last time. That was a cool little score that day Then you just continue on And you and you made it, right? You could have like you already paid you got away with it, but all it was a few more steps See what I'm saying? You see how that can progress then before you know it, you're like purposely putting this underneath there Maybe even putting some but the paper towels Yeah, or a newspaper or something like that just a cover to make sure they don't see it And I got pause plausible deniability. Oh shit. I forgot you know, see what I'm saying I I'm sure I'm sitting here trying to figure out why I hate stealing so much And I'm coming okay. First of all first of all when I was a kid There was these little trend of these little Trucks these little tiny they were like this a little bit slightly larger than a matchbox But they had they had the rubber wheels that had like a monster truck looking at stompers Is that what they were called stompers? So I was in fourth grade And Mine got stolen Mine got stolen. Yeah, and because of the way they were they were all kind of a little bit different And the kid that stole it He got busted like the teacher, you know, I went to the teacher crying or whatever Somebody stole my little thing and and she did whatever kind of freaking search and seizure On the class And dude this kid got busted And it was like shame. It's weird. I wasn't mad I was I was like I felt ashamed for him and he felt ashamed like you could see it He was he was a real pale like howly looking guy And his face like was bright red and tears in the whole nine yards And I thought man that that was not worth it like I I didn't even feel mad like I said like I was sad But then when I saw him I was like dude, that sucks. Yeah, that's the number one number two in the teams if you stole shit, bro, it was like Like there was a guy at team one that stole something and they pulled his bird that day Oh, and then one last story I was on a ship And I had a knife a cool bad-ass knife And I had it in my gear and somebody stole it and I was like I was It was like violation, you know, and uh, that's why stealing brother that shits Yeah, it does have a weird deep violation violating like Freaking quality to it And I think got my bike stolen one time too and I was a grown man Yeah, oh, yeah, I was going to pick up my kids on my bike I walked into a house. I walked into a house got you know, hey, what's up, blah, blah, blah Walk back outside my bike's gone. Yeah, I got and that was a bad-ass bike too. How much was it? Probably a thousand bucks. Yeah. Yeah, I got my most old at that point, but Yeah, it was probably 10 years old brother makes it worse. That's like part of you It's like you get you know, like people say it I feel like I feel like I was personally violated Especially like, you know, what if people come home to their house being, you know, broken into or something like this The I got my moped stolen is real common in Hawaii. There's a lot of mopeds, you know by the university or whatever And people will just steal them. I got my insulin felt the same thing, bro It's like right it goes deeper than just oh, shit. I don't have my moped anymore Yeah, because all of a sudden nothing is safe, right? Yeah, all of a sudden the whole world is gone. Yeah Everyone's lost their minds. Yeah, like that's the game. We're playing like your stuff can just disappear and now someone else owns it It's like, bro. That's weird the um Also also to It feels like most people don't just casually just steal stuff from the guy next to him like on the deal like that it seems ain't like I A part of me kind of understands these professional outfits that you know go and rob the Truck or something like this is kind of like how that feels a little bit different. Um, even though it's not But you we had a guy on our football team. He stole the whole like video game console From a guy's dorm room like through a few doors down. Yeah, that's straight It's the kind of where we're all playing this video game, right? He has the playstation 2 or whatever And we'd go to his room from you know on the weekends or whatever and then one day he came home and it was it was gone He was like what like it doesn't make sense or whatever So he's kind of look around. Hey, did anyone like borrow it or whatever? It's like, I don't know what you're talking about or whatever and it was just gone Come to find out it was one of our teammates who lived in that dorm It's like a few doors down came in because not everyone leaves their door like locked all the time And he just goes in take steals it and like hides it under the bed You know because like summertime was coming to whatever and they're like what the hell And everyone was kind of confused like how would that it doesn't make sense like why would it like job like I'm gonna come And like go in your bag and like steal some it just doesn't make sense But are they going to his room? I don't know how they suspected him But they go in his room and they they lift up all the cushions from his bed You know like beds in the college dorm room they have cushions and like a little storage thing And it's like way in the back tucked in the back real deliberately hidden. Yes intentionally hidden and My friend the guy's name is Davey the guy who uh owned the on the video game console He said like he went in there and when he saw it He felt like he was like bro. It was like I was like Sexually assaulted Seeing my stuff like just stowed away like freaking all covertly like that He was like bro. It was like these like bro my heart started beating all fast I was like dang bro I was like I can't imagine Because it's like it's it's a weird slimy violation to just steal from especially like from your like yeah That's a huge part of it a huge part of it is like you're stealing from a person as opposed to like a company Right. You know um, all right. I'm gonna bring this back into the fall there Next one and again If you case you forgot these are these are the indicators that There might be some ethical slide happening next one is dehumanization and disqualification These occur when soldiers lose respect for others or think that they others are below them Soldiers may feel like they are being forced to protect or help people who are not like them and who they do not like during the vietnam war Use of the derogatory terms gooks or slopes indicated that some soldiers had dehumanized to the local people and you there's like um, there's a derogatory Dehumanizing name in every war for every enemy that we have and You got to be careful with that and it's one of those things where You you have to dehumanize the enemy a little bit And as you may have heard me say for us the enemy dehumanized themselves through their behavior when you're Murdering and torturing the local populace. It's They they dehumanize themselves But as a leader you got to make sure that doesn't carry on And go to a point where you know, you get a me lie massacre type scenario Next one moral disengagement moral disengagement occurs when soldiers are so physically mentally psychologically and emotionally stressed and exhausted that they cognitive cognitively disengage From moral and ethical reasoning or simply do not think about it This usually takes the form of some kind of self deception lying to themselves Rationalization the ends justify the mean or even mindlessness or mind numbing It often results in routineization of unethical behaviors in some cases a soldier May simply not think in terms of right and wrong or may not be thinking at all just acting without thinking Just going through the motions is what we're doing This is an interesting one bracketed morality refers to a soldier assigning a different set of values or beliefs in one context For example while deployed as opposed to another while back in the world Or put another way what happens in theater stays in theater, right? What happens if vegas stays in vegas? Bracketed morality though this doesn't count right now Right misplaced loyalty This refers to a soldier placing his loyalty to other soldiers battle buddies Or the small unit higher than the organization values the seven army values a soldier committing an unethical act to take care or cover it for a squadmate is an example Again, this is one. This is one of the very slippery slope. You got my back, right? Yes, I do 100% 99.9% because if you do something that Is illegally immoral and ethical. I don't got your back anymore. You need to know that and If I don't make that clear It's a problem and if I on top of that give indications Like small transgressions that I let fly and those they'll test the waters too. The boys are the troops are going to test the waters They're going to see what up your kids are going to test the waters. What can I get away with? So you can't be surprised when you've let them slide and let them slide and let them slide when they slide right out from under reality Peer pressure peer pressure is the influence of the group or unit that can override a soldier's ability to act or think individually obviously Group think is similar to peer pressure when the weight of the group's ideas overrides a soldier's ability to think and act alone Is a lack of moral courage It's a tough one That's a tough one. You're going to be the guy that stands up and you know, again in the mealy massacre What's interesting about that is it was Hugh Thompson that flew in his helicopter saw what was happening And stopped one guy as soon as he went back to base and said hey, they're killing people And base called out and said stop killing people. They stopped They just needed someone to snap out of it Which means that entire company it snapped in No one snapped out And that's the list some of the some of the constructs above can Act alone on a soldier's thinking and emotional well-being although they normally work in combination When several of these constructs in combination influence a soldier bad things may happen Arguably all nine of them influenced soldier and leader actions at mealy and abu gureb Some are all played a significant role in the other incidents Although there are volumes of academic research on these constructs They really are not complicated for army leaders to understand or identify army commanders and leaders both officers and nco's are intelligence educated intelligent educated and well-meaning professionals, you know, this is like one of those things where it reminds me when we When we did the machete season about About the rwanda massacre They start talking about like the language that they use to describe The enemy, you know and how that just became so common. It's like what they did in nazi germany You know you scribe the jews as the the vermin and the cockroaches and stuff like that and that just slowly just seeps in it just seeps in so That's what happens these little indicators. Oh, that's just a little indicator. You know, oh, oh, there's some dehumanization happening Right the tootsies are getting called the cockroaches. Oh, okay That's what's going down. You know and you just so what what they're saying here is you got to pay attention that as a leader Okay, and go it gets into it a little bit In a minute here that doesn't mean like oh You know echo said this that means he's lost his mind. No, it's it's an indicator. It's a symptom Right, it doesn't necessarily mean echoes lost his mind. He's gonna freaking start murdering people It means I got to pay attention to make sure he's okay. Make sure, you know, I bring him back a little bit Um They're awareness of what can happen. Maybe all it takes to help mitigate these threats. So there you go More important from the leader development perspective is that these psychological emotional threats should be known and understood by commanders and leaders They should discuss them at the command staff meetings during and after during after action reviews and integrate them into their pre-depoliment training Even more dogmatically They could be checklist items for leaders to carry with them. I totally agree Like are you making sure what is goal? You know, is there dehumanization happening? Is the routinization happening? Is there a transfer of responsibility? Is there authorization? Like what you got to make sure The nine constructs are human issues The army is in the business of leading human beings individual emotive thoughtful distinct people no two are the same You cannot produce the exact same model of them on an assembly line year after year No rigid scientific method will influence people to accomplish the mission Training soldiers and developing them into leaders is the work of thoughtful craftsmen Not the process of thousands of parts that come together to complete the organization Because individual free will exists friction uncertainty psychological interaction and chance will also exist Combat leaders must understand the complex nature of human beings And not just combat leaders If you're in a leadership position and you are you better understand some human nature Because you got to deal with individual free will friction uncertainty Psychological not to mention ego not to mention emotion not to mention agenda The statements below taken from investigations and discussions of the incidents above And others are examples of what leaders should listen for as signs that a soldier may be suffering from some of these threats He displayed pure hatred for the enemy and often referred to them as savages Are we going to protect the population or kill insurgents? When the world you thought was made of concrete turns out to be smoke and mirrors the results can be devastating No, I'm just going quote after quote. These are just so much quotes I don't care if I die We are undermanned and no one gives a damn Certain people are not to come back alive The army has great leaders and morally bankrupt leaders I challenge you to imagine the frustration felt after being engaged in firefights for several hours with the enemy and then Capturing them only to have them release two days later because you're told the holding area needs more information on them The climate in the unit was toxic We repletedly found ourselves fighting the same enemy again and again Kill all military aged males on the objective We need more kills So you can see these things are Indicators and it says of course these quotes must be taken in context As standalone quotes, they may have a negative or threatening meaning while in context. They may not mean a problem exists at all context matters But if a leader hears remarks like the ones above his radar screen should blip with a cautionary note and it should start asking probing questions In addition leaders should look out for soldiers who behave Erratically or anti-socially for example a soldier torturing or killing dogs and cats would be an obvious warning sign So Yeah, I never saw anyone kill dogs and cats. Did I hear dehumanization? Yes Did I what's some other things on here? Hey, did I hear people say we're under man and no one gives a damn? Sure Did I hear the the military or the army or the navy has great leaders and and more? Yeah, like yeah You're judging that it's good and bad. So I've heard all these kind of things Call them savages got 100% myself included get some But in context like pure hatred for the enemy That's a little different than name calling And if you can't it but but all these things should be a little indicator A little indicator Well, the guy doesn't like the enemy. Of course. He doesn't like the enemy killed our friends Guy hates the enemy. Sure hates the enemy. They killed our friends Guy hates the enemy and starts to hate everyone that looks like the enemy now. We might have an issue So you got it. You got to pay attention Interestingly and coincidentally after the mili incident Lieutenant general william pierce investigation found nine factors that influenced the tragic event Lack of proper training attitude toward the local people which is a lack of cultural sensitivity Permissive attitude. We're just gonna let things slide psychological factors. Obviously organizational factors nature of the enemy Plans orders and commanders intent attitude of government officials and leadership leadership leadership leadership and yeah, you know, we covered the mili massacre on the podcast but You know, there was the I think one of the biggest problems was the inflation of the intelligence you know going from Like the division level like there may be vc in this area And then the brigade level is like There's suspected vc in the area and then the battalion level there's vc in the area at the company level their vc and that little You know that little game Of not game but the little effort to make the person Take something seriously Which was expanded each time at each level down And that's why that's one of the major contributors not to mention. We let william callie was a bad officer who'd failed all the cs a bunch of times So you had a bunch of issues there The same psychological constructs that were proximate cause of mili Are still a threat to our soldiers and leaders and always will be from a learning perspective the nine constructs Previously discussed are a subset of the nine factors found at the mili the attitude toward the local Psychological factors the nature of the enemy plans and orders leadership This back dates back to 1968 and highlights the need to learn really learn from the past Of course atrocities by u.s. Soldiers have occurred throughout u.s. Wars to include world war two with the killing of german prisoners of dachau Also the killing of german and italian prisoners at beskari These historical examples are powerful reminders of how the dark side of warfare can influence soldiers and leaders thoughts emotions and behaviors Yes, it's the amount of war that america has fought and the amount of atrocities. This is like staggeringly small We generally I remember i got uh, i was getting interviewed and and i got asked about like Almost like put on the spot about i think it was about abu grabe And i kind of said hey abu if you want to put me on the spot. Let's talk about sand creek masker. Let's talk about the mili masker. Those are like horrific But you know if you want to put me on the spot In abu grabe you you could you could do better, but you have to go back you have to go back to like You know vietnam you have to go back to 50 60 70 years if you want to get You know those can now look we brought up a bunch of examples that but they were much smaller on scale um Other recommendations other curriculum additions we propose involve contextual and environmental challenges That soldiers and leaders might experience while deployed Teaching and discussing these and other challenges will better prepare future combat leaders for some of the challenges they could face The list while not certainly complete winning tactically, but losing operational leaders strategically This is something we teach at the muster very specifically winning tactically, but losing strategically You go out and you kill Kill a enemy target But you also killed four civilians. You might win tactically, but you're gonna lose strategically Even if you just destroy a bunch of infrastructure You might win because you were able to take out a bad guy, but you and now have the local populace going bro We can't turn on our lights anymore Reporting of events truthful or otherwise Corruption and bribes. These are just things that you know, is it good to say reporting of events? Explain what that means to you like I my guys knew If something happened it was getting reported, you know, that's what we're doing Corruption and bribes, how do you handle those contractors in the battle straight space? That's a real thing Lack of resources unrealistic expectations Commanders out of touch it with reality at lower levels. It's good to talk about these things Soldiers stretch too thin good to talk about these things. It's good to present these things that people say this is what it's gonna be like This is what we're gonna be facing I was talking to one of the guys from tasking to bruiser the other day and we was talking about um The corruption in the Iraqi army soldiers that we were working with And it was like, you know, he was actually saying that he came to me and said hey, man, this is what's going on I was like, do you want are you gonna do you want to handle it? Or do you want me to handle it? He was like, oh, I got it boss. You know what I mean? Like who's it was kind of a good story of just you know me saying look dude Do you need me? He's like no, I'm letting you know, but if you want me to handle it, I'll handle it But it was corruption. It was soldier Iraqi soldiers not getting paid Part of it was because it was corrupt part of it's because their culture like their culture is like, you know, the boss gets a cut That's how we do it like the mob, right Some challenges on this list are clearly outside the average private or staff sergeant thought process and influence In fact squad leaders and even platoon sergeants and platoon leaders may have very little influence over most of these things But leaders at all levels should be aware of them because looks listen, you might not be able to influence the fact of like Why are we here? Why are we doing this thing? But you still have to make sure you frame those things correctly and you understand them and you can explain them and you can look out For how your troops are taking them Because the last thing you want your troops to be is like, what the hell are we here? I don't care anymore Other challenges leaders will have to be cognizant cognizant of and likely address include decisions regarding escalation of force. Oh, yeah Dropping or planting weapons. No No do not do this By the way, if you refer back to those earlier examples One of those examples is you shoot someone and you drop a weapon on them and make it seem as if it was That's why you did it. This is not a good move I'm gonna tell you right now. This is not a good move, especially because the way the roe is written Someone doesn't have to be armed to be to be engaged They if they have to be doing something hostile But what is hostile? Even hostile intent like it looked like they were gonna do this or that When you when you plant a weapon on them, even if you go, hey, dude, I got scared And I pulled the trigger and I shouldn't have You'll get in trouble, but if you plant a weapon on them, you're going to jail You see what I'm saying? That's a huge difference. It's a huge difference Uh war trophies You may know my thoughts on war trophies. We should be allowed to take war trophies sure they should have to go through some kind of an authorization, but I brought home nothing from iraq and I want something You know and I would only want that much but I would have liked a little something You know what I'm saying? Yeah, it feels like that would be as an outsider Feels like that would be a slippery slope scenario. So they might That's why that's why it's a plank. You're right. You're you're 100 right, but there should be a process You should be able to say hey I found a nickel plated ak-47 You can demilitarize it so it won't fire anymore, but I want that above my fireplace Yeah, or whatever and quite honestly, I'm not even that into it. I just it seems like It seems like other dudes would want maybe I maybe I would have had something if they if we didn't have that rule Maybe I'd have a a nickel plated ak above my fireplace Because god knows we took a lot of ak's man. Yeah confiscated some ak's from these people and Understated maybe way to put it is like bruhs so many of those things and from that time and all those experiences like they have sentimental value, you know, so All the way down to the point where Like if there was a let's say a knife that was dropped on d-day by somebody just dropped And buried under the sand and all the action whenever someone found it That would like you could auction that off for like you see what I'm saying And that's just because of like secondhand Sentimental value you see I'm saying and then for yeah for the guys to be in it and happen to come across something That was part of like a huge event that they participated in Yeah, it makes sense to you know what no I I get why they do it But there should be a protocol and by the way there is a protocol But it's like at a very senior level like if your unit wants to bring back something that they captured Then you can do that but you have to there is a there is a protocol for it But it's only for like the very senior people that could actually pull it off Because they have time the freaking privates are out there in the streets keeping it real They don't have time to fill out a bunch of paperwork. You know, I know I didn't wasn't thinking about filling up paperwork but Yeah, they don't let it happen. There was that movie called three kings you ever watched that one The yeah, I didn't watch it, but I remember they found gold or something like that. Yeah. Well, yeah, so it To me that's like a obviously it's a movie But it's like how that slippery slope could turn out because it's like All right, they're in there and you know things are slowing down or whatever this is in a nutshell Things are slowing down and then they get word that there's gold Like in a town that's like Saddam's gold and so not you know, it's basically it's like no one's really gonna claim it you know, it's kind of up for grabs kind of a thing and The war is like it was I think he was desert stormer. I think so it's like they weren't doing anything So they had time and you know the capability. So it's like And then they got then it of course it's a movie. So you know, he gets uh gets hectic we'll say Yeah, that's why they have that rule, but they should make it a little bit more flexible as well I feel you feel it I want to see uh Revenge motives clearly got to watch out for those The need to control their own soldiers emotions The sorry the need to control their own and their soldiers emotions And the attitude if no one talks no one will find out I'm gonna tell you right now that ain't that is that is not a good move Um These are the kind of things that a squad leader platoon surgeon or platoon leader can directly control They are individual they are individual leader challenges But also commander issues and influenced by command climate The leader has to recognize when soldiers feel threatened and determined when he needs to resort to an escalation of force The leader chooses or allows subordinates to choose to carry a spare weapon on a patrol to drop next to a shooting victim To make it appear the patrol is fired upon bad move Leaders create a reality that justifies their actions when deployed Leaders allow soldiers to give in to lesser instincts and succumb to blood bloodlust. These are just mistakes, man Leaders allow for killing for revenge Clearly the army does not condone these things nor does it equivocate that some that they might be permitted in some circumstances. Nope, they're not These are first and foremost individual choices and must be seen that way But strong educated and knowledgeable leaders and leadership can influence individual choices leaders must be able to recognize a non-combatant Understand the risks to and treatment of non-combatants Recognize and know the risks to legally protected sites provide a clear commander's intent identify questionable command climate Know when to intervene to stop wrongdoing of others And that's everybody's responsibility and you should be I was talking to some troops the other day and If something every if something goes above your level you should be a little bit embarrassed, you know if The new guy sees something that shouldn't be going on. He should stop it if his Boss has to stop it He should be like damn. I dropped the ball now if that guy Like the the squad leader didn't stop it and now the now the platoon leader needs to stop it the squad leader should be a little embarrassed if the Platoon leader didn't stop it and now the troop leader needs to stop it that platoon leader should be damn So you should handle it at the lowest level, but that takes moral courage by the way And it also takes detachment because you're all wrapped up in the situation, right? We're all wrapped up in the situation We're all emotional. So we're letting something slide. Nope You got to stay detached and you got to say hey if this gets out How's that going to feel? How's that going to look? Can you Say oh well, that's what happened It wasn't good, but here's what happened. It was combat shit got crazy But if you're gonna be saying uh See what i'm saying Um, yeah, all of these things should be addressed by the institution and the command These are leader issues contextually they all begin with command climate And they're all about leaders being able to control their own soldiers. They're their own and their own soldiers emotions First the leader must master self-awareness and self-management and then look at things in a political and emotional context Only when he has mastered that can he set the tone that will address other items So The goal of the sessions should be real learning not protection of reputations Students could reflect on and discuss insights and lessons learned from their knowledge experiences and understanding of the cases This is if you if you do vignettes, it's wrecking. It's recommending that you analyze and discuss real vignettes And then look for those nine constructs inside those vignettes Integrating some of your similar vignettes into pre-deployment scenarios and training would also be an effective technique of learning Real learning versus via real learning via self-awareness and self-management learning growing and developing our lifelong choices That individuals and organizations make they just they just don't happen Being a lifelong learner learner is a conscious choice That requires a high level of self-awareness and self-management leaders need to be self-aware enough to know both what they do know and what they do not know And when and where and what they need to learn For example lifelong learners must be self-aware enough to know that they lack knowledge in some areas And then take steps to learn or improve in those areas that's self-management The leaders who think they know it all or have nothing else to learn are setting themselves their units and their missions for failure or worse We've introduced some specific topics. We feel leaders need to know in a combat environment so that is important real leader development begins with one's self The more knowledge of human behavior and the human dimension leaders have the more they will understand and potentially influence it firm knowledge of the physiological and emotional constructs and reoccurring themes we have recommended can be a starting point for example Leaders thoughts and emotions may drive them to seek some kind of irrational revenge If the tragic loss of some of their soldiers to an immoral adversary How and if leaders regulate this revenge motive both cognitively and emotionally will affect their decision cycle their ethical reasoning and ultimately their behavior So to sum all this up And combat leaders must be aware of the many negative psychological and emotional effects that the stresses and violence of combat may have on their soldiers The nine constructs we have discussed sound Sound planned training throughout our army can educate train and develop our leaders to recognize Threatening signs in their soldiers recognize threatening signs in themselves ethically reason And recognize an ethical situation that may not be self-evidence And i'll close it out with this self-aware leaders should habitually Ask themselves and their trusted subordinates if there are any unhealthy signs or indicators In their unit self-aware commanders should also habitually ask their subordinates What ethical challenges their units are facing or may face in the future if this ability or knowledge requires a checklist So be it The material for the checklist and the curriculum is based on years of lessons learned from our army of learning Organization so There you go. Um Real real lessons there those are real lessons and those should be focused on Extensively Extensively because if you're not ready for them, man They will creep up And you'll end up with groupthink and you'll end up with peer pressure and you'll end up in these morally ambiguous situations and making bad decisions So Know your team That's what we're doing uh also In order to be mentally and emotionally fit guess what You gotta be physically fit too So we're getting after it dude. We're getting after it. We're lifting. We're running. We're boxing. We're uh doing jiu-jitsu We need fuel we recommend jockel fuel get some protein Proteins proteins kind of what you need Kind of across the board You need protein we got protein. We got ready to drink protein. We got powdered protein Tastes delicious like dessert. So check that out. We also have energy We have time war We have joint warfare I met another person who told me their their mom Put their mom on joint warfare. She's feeling good. She's like arthritic You know what I'm saying? And then one more uh person individual and I talked to Mom is drinking goes And feeling like sharp You know like a step up a little you know a little cognitively fading because getting old Put down that go get the game on so if you need fuel what you do check out jockel fuel.com or just go to your store We're in so many stores across america right now. You can get the good clean fuel Jockel fuel is there a new flavor out from oak? Yes raspberry gelato. Yeah That's a good one. Obviously. It's very delicious. I don't know that that's cereal One. Yeah, the fruity cereal is very difficult to eat the chocolate. It's delicious. The vanilla is delicious. You know like it's It's so good. Yeah. I haven't tried it yet. Which one have you tried that new one the gelato. Yeah. Oh, it's tasty Oh, it's tasty. It's good. Yeah. We're kind of you know, we're getting better Taking us less iterations to make something taste good in our testing process. 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No, not yet But if you want to get the jump on it because sometimes they sell out quick Sometimes it takes a few days. They usually are pretty dope. Yeah This one is solid this year's one is solid Anyway, if you want to get the jump on it, you want to get the heads up when it goes live where you can get it Just sign up for the email little email list there in front of the thing. I don't spam no spam I'm anti spam in that way. So don't worry about that. It's all useful information Oh For that if you want to get the jump on it, but yes, so this year 2026 independence day shirt It will be available very soon. I don't know exactly when but very soon. Anyway, it's all on jockelstore.com right on Also, check out echelonfront.com. We teach leadership And we have our our next event next big event We do events all the time, but we have a next big event is the muster In sandy, oh california july 8 through the 10th If you want to learn about leadership bring your bring some team members Bring them down there. Let them learn extreme ownership.com. We teach the skills of leadership online as well We got books about leadership. I've written a bunch of them Dave berks wrote one Called need to lead rob jones wrote one call put your legs on i've written a bunch of kids books too You can check those out if you need steak you can go to primal beef.com or colorado craft beef dot com and you can get The best steak don't settle for the crappy steak get the good steak. That's what you want primal beef.com colorado craft beef.com and if you want to help service members active and retired You want to help their families you want to help gold star families check out marclise mom mama lee She's got an incredible charity organization and It helps out our teammates And our military and first responders so much. She's just amazing If you want to donate or you want to get involved go to americas mighty warriors dot org Also, check out heroes and horses dot org. Micah think up there Saving souls in the mountains Jimmy mays got the organization beyond the brotherhood dot org check out the swim happening in august I think it's It's selling very very quickly. It'll it'll it might be sold out by now But go check it out be on the brotherhood dot org And then warriors in need dot org And stronghold rescue dot org those are all great people running great organizations If you want to connect with us check out jockel.com and then on social media I'm at jockel willing echoes at echo charles. Just be careful because there is a a mind monster in there Echo and I were about to hit record And i'm sitting there and I got I was checking something on social media And then three minutes of my life was gone gone And I had to shut that thing down and say echo charles. You see what happened there. Yeah, you see what happened And bro, I told you right away. I go. I was enjoying that You know what I mean? Yes, like it put me right in the comfort zone. I was seeing a bunch of things Oh, little jiu-jitsu little surfing somebody's ripping on guitar. Oh, let's see what this next and it was just serving them up Serving them up serving them up just like a drug dealer serves up heroin That's what's happening. So pull that needle out of your arm Shut that damn phone off and go out and do something productive in the world Now also right now as we're sitting here comfortably there are uniformed men and women around the world holding the line And protecting america and our way of life and we are grateful To all of them. We're also grateful to our police law enforcement firefighters paramedics emt dispatchers correctional officers Border patrol secret service as well as all other first responders. Thank you for holding the line here at home And everyone else out there You got to pay attention You got to pay attention. What's going on? You got to pay attention these little these little signs You got to recognize the signs in your people. You got to recognize the signs in yourself In order to do that you have to be detached but also We have to All the time as often as we can look back We have to look back We have to do that debrief. We have to do that after actions review not to dwell not to highlight the bad not to second-guess decisions And not to criticize from that from that hindsight being 20 20 But we have to look back in order to move forward. We have to look back and learn in order to get better And that is what we are doing That's all we've got for tonight and until next time this is echo and jocco out