The Sporting Class: Are NFL Players Ready to Strike?

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out presented by eBay Live. I am Pablo Torre, and today we're going to find out what this sound is. The only way you can win is if you are willing to endure the pain longer than they are. And if you listen to our show on Apple podcasts, you can now watch video there as well. Just update to the latest iOS, and head over to our show page. Just start watching. But for right now, just a quick word from our sponsors. This Saturday, the £15 million Lotto Jackpot must be won. Must be won. Must be won. Must be won. Must be won. Yes, the Lotto Jackpot must be won this Saturday. What are you waiting for? Get your ticket today. Lotto from the National Lottery. It could be you. Rules and procedures apply. Players must be 18 or over. People at work supported me by not treating me like somebody who was going through treatment. Treatment sucks. Answer sucks. Being engaged with work really helped to... I just knew I was going to beat this day. Research shows that what's important for patients' best outcomes is not only the treatment we give, but the ability for them to continue their lives, which often means continuing to work and have purpose for what they're doing. Learn more and sign the pledge at WorkingWithCancerPledge.com. In a world of noise and uncertainty, IG is the investment platform that backs you. Take a reflexable stock size-a, which gives you the freedom to withdraw funds anytime and replace them in the same tax year, all without losing your £20,000 tax-free allowance. And if that's not enough, pay no commission on your stock shares and ETFs when you invest with IG. IG. Trade. Invest. Progress. Your capital's at risk. Other fees may apply. Tax treatment depends on individual circumstances and is subject to change. Telling you. Got him. Got him? Telling you. What is this duet that's happening? Oh, sorry. I'm digging that sweatshirt. Thanks, buddy. Is it your child make it? It looks like a tie-dye. All right. It is. No, I don't mean that. It is tie-dye. I like the hoodie too, but were you guys about to do Dream Girls because that was happening? No. No. I'm telling you. That's not what it was. And I'm telling you. And I'm telling you. Yeah. Oh. I gave a standing ovation to that in a theater. In a movie theater. The movie theater. I saw it alone and I stood up and applauded like I was on Broadway at the end of that Jennifer Hudson. It was such a performance that I had to and I wasn't alone. I mean, I was alone in the movie, but other people stood up too. I don't know if I've ever been to a movie where someone spontaneously stood up and the actors weren't like there. It wasn't like a premiere. I've been there for applause. There was applause at the end of Basic Instinct when I saw that. You've never gone to like a night of showing of like a big movie? Like I feel like back in like the Marvel, when Marvel was really cracking, I feel like if you went to like one of those movies around open at night, people would lose it. Standing up sincerely for applause, I have not seen. I've seen people like obviously like freak. I went to Mamma Mia, the movie. People were singing. People were f***ing dancing. Yeah. So that's standing up. But that's a different thing. How do you dance? They like dance in the aisles or they just get up? Dancing in the aisles. In front of like the screen actually. I didn't know Mamma Mia had slaps like that. Like they got get out your chair, bangers. Who's producing that? Metro Boomin? Who is it? That's Abba. Who's the producer for Mamma Mia? She can't dance to Abba. Wait, are you learning this for the first time? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I know what Mamma Mia is. What do you think Mamma Mia is about? Hold on. What do you think Mamma Mia is? Come on, man. We doing like a cultural checklist that I get to ask you guys questions to. Have you ever seen Paid in Full? Mamma Mia is about like, I know it has to do with like some infidelity or something or just like a girl, a baby that they don't know who the dad is, something like that, right? That's right. It's a funny takeaway. I wouldn't have that in my top five is what Mamma Mia is about, but that is true. I've never seen it. I've never seen it, but like I exist in America and unlike you guys, I have to be surrounded by your culture all the time and absorb it sometimes. I know, I know that lots of places Dominic goes, he thinks to himself, once again, more Filipino sh**. F**k, dammit. That's true. This is the wrong audience to make fun of or like impose in their culture. Oh, dammit. I'm so used to being around just regular whites. My jokes don't work in every audience. This Saturday, the £15 million Lotto Jackpot must be won. Must be won. Must be won. Must be won. Must be won. Yes, the Lotto Jackpot must be won this Saturday. What are you waiting for? Get your ticket today. Lotto from the National Lottery. It could be you. Rules and procedures apply. Players must be 18 or over. This is an ad from BetterHelp. Some days, it feels like you're carrying something no one else can see. Stress, grief, responsibility, the kind of heaviness that doesn't show up in photos, but follows you everywhere. You don't have to hold it alone. With BetterHelp, you can talk to someone who helps lighten what you've been carrying for far too long. Take the weight off. Start therapy anytime from anywhere online with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash random podcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy. It is good to see both of you. It's been too long since we do this. He likes the cadence. How many texts are on the side? Good cadence. Like once every three months. That's about it. How are you guys? Hello. Hi. What's up, Pablo? Congrats. What a big day, Dominique. I don't know if you're aware of the news. What happened? You got another award? Nominated for multiple Emmys. Three of them. Two for best episode. And one for best sports journalism and best edited, hosted series, I believe. Don't say you believe. I was snubbed for a handsomest man in sports media. Don't try to pivot the jokes. You could at least have a good joke if you're trying to pivot. You're trying to get us off of this with bad jokes. He's trying to keep us on it, obviously. But it is newsworthy because you're competing not against schlock. You're competing against budget. You're competing against names and studios. He got budget, too. I know the books. All right. Let's get off the books. Now I'm pivoting. Now I'm pivoting. It's the budget against budget. Before I demand the financials of the Walt Disney Company, I want to pivot off of this. Dominique, I mean, you get to this. Because, yes, people have been saying nice things. And someone else who said a nice thing was Pat McAfee, colleague at ESPN, who had as his special guest in person in studio, J.C. Treder, the new executive director of the NFLPA. And here's how that conversation went. I saw Mr. Jones, who had worked with the NFLPA for 18 years, I think. I did not know who he was, but it seems like a lot of people respect him. He talked to Pablo Torre. And it felt like there was a little bit of a negative reaction to you becoming the role that you have. I didn't listen to the entire thing. And we, Pablo Torre is going, by the way. He has courage to go. I mean, I think that's good for society is what people say. We got a blessing for that. But I did hear that there was, and read some of the headlines about the backlash that was kind of happening with you getting in there. What do you think is the main mission on why people maybe don't like that you're in there? And has the history of the NFLPA been something that is changeable for future NFLPA? Yeah. You said Pablo's got the courage to go. I had challenged him to have the courage to be right, which he hasn't been for a very long time. All right. Okay. Got it. So he said a lot of things that actually just aren't true. Kind of created this. So that was JC Tredder, David, the new executive director of the NFLPA, Dominique Foxworth, our friend here is the former player president of the NFLPA, a candidate in the last two executive director searches. I should say first that I wish JC Tredder had the courage to come on this show. We've been asking since June of last year, and he won't talk to us. He hasn't given us comments or anything like that. But the Mr. Jones thing, Craig Jones is the former chief security officer of the NFLPA. He was there for over 17 years. He was our guest on Poblatori Finds Out last week. He has been on the record long before I even knew about these characters. How worried he is about the corruption. He didn't talk about Craig Jones, JC Tredder, though. He talked about me. I thought I was very telling that Tredder is going to go safe. He's going to go on McAfee. He's going to mention your name and try to impugn your ability as a journalist. But that's not really addressing what you were addressing. And so what I always find interesting, and management does this too, it's not unique to the union. It's PR 101 that when you don't have the facts, you just argue the law. When you don't have the law, you argue the facts. And when you have neither, you just yell. And what I've noticed about the NFLPA during this process was just a lot of yelling. Because what you had, you didn't discover this. You just gave it oxygen. And what, you're not going to get Dominique to talk here because, and Dominique, please correct me if I'm wrong. The union is an evolving live species. And I don't think you're going to burn that bridge, no matter what your view is internally. And the reason why you're not is because I don't view JC Tredder as a long-term asset to the union. And that was my issue from the start. When he stepped down, I thought that he'd be down and gone. I thought that it was a mistake of the union to bring him back. And it just showed a desire to almost kick the corruption can for as long as possible. But eventually that comes back to get you. And I think that's the reason Dominique will stay quiet because his type of leadership, and Dominique doesn't pay me for this, but his type of leadership is serious leadership that is based on intelligence and experience. Look at, look at, look at what we're, look at this. You're wrong, but, but you're sweet. Like I appreciate that was, I mean, I burned the out of bridge. I think if I feel strongly about something, I will absolutely torch that bridge. Like I, that's one thing that comes with like the, the confidence of a cornerback borderline arrogance is that like, I'm not concerned about like where I'm a work. Like I'm talented. I'll be fine. I wasn't. In that at all. Oh no, I guess you, it's felt to me like you were saying, like, I didn't want to burn that bridge because like it's, it JC might be out at some point and I might want to try to get that role. I guess that's what I thought. Well, I just think, yeah, I do think that actually. And I think that's smart of you. I think it, but that doesn't stop you from giving opinions. But I want to, I want to, I want to, I want to Dominique refer to something that I, I want to ask him directly about because for those who did not pay attention to the multi-part series that Mike Florio on public story finds out dating back to the summer of last year. The thing that's insane about this story is that JC treader was the guy who was the president of the NFLPA, the player president, the job that Dominique had. And he's the guy who ran the search that resulted in the election of Lloyd Howell, who is, and this is not even a subjective assessment at this point, who was the most embarrassing character in the history of sports unions. Okay. He had to resign, emit a scandal that involved a secret confidentiality agreement around this collusion ruling, a partial victory for the players, the holy grail that the players suddenly had, that they then decided to bury in coordination with the league. There were strip club receipts, the expense. There was a secret or not so secret side job with the Carlisle group, which is one of the private equity firms on the NFL's approved list of investors and NFL teams. There was the fact that he was in fact the CFO of Booze Island when they had the largest federal procurement scandal in which Booze, the consulting firm apparently overbilled the US government hundreds of millions of dollars. And it goes on actually. He resigns. And the thing about the union, when you see just that story, Dominique, is this feels both like an extreme circumstance, but also in line with what has long afflicted labor unions in America, which is corruption. I get if JC Trader is like, look, I was the number two, I'm a good soldier. I try to do his best for the union, even as I saw corruption unfolding in front of me, which was shocking, even though he, by the way, was made the chief strategy officer, a job that had never existed before by Lloyd Howell upon Lloyd Howell's election. My question for you is after that long ass windup, what would you do if you were the top lieutenant at the NFLPA and you saw an unfolding corruption scandal? Like genuinely, like how would you have handled that? It's the players union. And like, that's something I genuinely believe. So like, if this is whom they elected, then that's who they elected. So like, that's why, like, I'm not going to come on here and bash like, if they don't like them, if all the things that you've brought up or any of that come up, then they'll do something about it. Having someone outside the union try to like impose what they want on the will of the union. Like I think, having been someone who was in leadership there, like that was always like, it felt condescending and frustrating. And so like, like that's why I'm in this situation right now where it's like, I can see all the reasons why I think the union has made the wrong choice. And I could easily justify, maybe I need to get involved and get loud and try to undercut them. Like, it's easy to justify the things that feel good to you. It's a job that's, it's an organization that's meant a lot to me. It's a job that I was really excited about that felt consequential that I really wanted. I didn't get it. And the result is not going to be me trying to figure out a way to pretend as if, or to try to take down the union and pretend as if it's only like, from the noblest of places. Like it part of it could be, but part of it like honestly would be because it's something that means a lot to me. So like I, I apply that to the question that you're asking me. It's like, yeah, I know what the right answer is. And in that situation, in a similar situation, I've made the right decision. But like, I just feel like you're setting me up a little bit. You know, management goes through this too, when you're choosing a commissioner and companies go through this when you're choosing a president or a chairman of the board, generally you try to stay inside. And the reason when you get an outside commissioner as an example or an outside head of the players union, the way white was, you tend to not understand really how things work. You tend to not understand how to juggle the plates properly. And you tend not to be beholden to the power brokers within said organization. So it's very common what the union did. So I don't want to criticize kicking the corruption can down the road because businesses do that all the time on every side. But it's actually not super common for the NFL PA, which is, I don't know if it's good or bad, because you lose a lot of institutional knowledge. It's really difficult. But Gene Upshaw died suddenly. And then I was on executive committee then we led a search then that brought up some internal candidates and a lot of external candidates. We went with the external candidate. And then this next change of power, they went with another external candidate. The only other executive director before that was Ed Garvey. So it's not something that we really do, which has hurt us in the past, honestly, with the institutional knowledge and the history and connection. Because while you did say that's something that's normal for businesses and companies and organizations, you're right. There's something different about unions to me. Because they negotiate against businesses. We talk about them like they are businesses, but they aren't. They're social movement organizations, essentially. And what that means to me is that the heart of it matters a lot more than a lot of the mechanics of the decision making. And I know it sounds naive. It does because it's not that way anymore, Dominique. It's like longing for the typewriter to me. Look at the players union and baseball and in football. One of the things that took down this administration were outside business interests in order to raise revenue through different streams. In fact, the federal government is investigating both the MLBPA and the NFLPA for alleged self enrichment as a part of one team partners, this name engine likeness, marketing arm of the union. But Dominique, to that point, yeah, there is capitalism more than ever in all of this. I mean, you need money to fund a union. So I'm not saying you're not supposed to generate revenue any way you can. So for profit arm, it exists and it's important. And also you need lawyers, you need corporate structure. I get all of that. My point is, I've been through this journey as a player who was involved in the union and felt that I needed to understand the world of business more. So went to business school, worked at other unions, understood the business world more, ultimately come all the way back around to understanding that actually the way to have a successful union is the way that social movements have success. It's not by outcorporating the other corporations. And I get how attractive that is as a player because I was there before. When I went as the COO of the MBPA, I spent months putting together a really elaborate strategic plan that was going to win on all fronts and win the war against the NBA on their terms and thought that it was really going to work. But ultimately, I know that that's not what's going to work because the dynamics of a negotiation between a labor union and the organization are such that the only thing that will have you survive is your commitment to protect with other people's sacrifice to give you and to be able to hand over what you've created to the people after you because ultimately the people who are going to have to sacrifice during that fight will not benefit most from the things that they sacrifice for. And that's akin to like any sort of social movement, it be it like women's suffrage or be it LGBTQ plus rights or civil rights like the most impactful social justice movement that we've had or social organization movement that we've had in this country, like any of that stuff, it's all true. And that's the thing that scares me and worries me more about like the future of unions is losing the connection to that because the only way you can win is if you are willing to endure the pain longer than they are. Like that's the final, final place that you end up on and you have to be able to have a credible threat that you're going to be able to do that. And the only way that you can have that credible threat is that you actually are capable of doing it. And there's not enough lawyers in the world, there's not enough corporate structure in the world, there's not enough money in the world to convince people to do that if they don't feel a connection to the organization, which you do lose every time you bring in a brand new person. You know, hey, we're starting all over, we don't know anything, we have no connection to this, we're going to, we're going to outsmart the owners and or we're going to out negotiate them. And that's something that also like, I think David, I'm sorry I'm rambling, but David, you might be able to speak to this also. But I think generally people misunderstand what it means to participate in a negotiation. They think it's a movie, they think that it's whoever has the craftiest line or whoever can win the argument in the room or whoever can play hardball the best or yell the loudest. No, a child could win a negotiation against Roger Goodell and the NFL. If they had the backing that they need, the negotiation takes place before you walk in the room. If Roger Goodell and the owners genuinely believe that the players will not play for whatever period of time it takes to get what they want, then you could send anybody you want in that room and get it done. If they don't, you can send the fastest talking, smartest, lawyer, most tactical politician you ever had in that room. They're going to walk out with the same s*** they came in there with. So you're talking about leverage, number one, number two, you're answering the question of why the outside business interest becomes so important because it is the what the issue is current day capital. Players and their ability to sit requires them to figure out financially the impact it has to them. And not all of the union feels the impact the same, but the union clearly needs money, and which is why they go to outside sources and create for profit. MLB does the same thing on the ownership side, side note. They go to the banks to get a extra line of credit before a CBA negotiation. They make sure there's enough debt capacity that all teams have. They make sure there's a furlough plan to manage your expenses. All that is done in order to withstand the possibility of missing games because what you're saying about the union is also true about management. You call them billionaires and as though that's the end of the discussion, but they're having the same meetings on the owner side as you're having on the player side. How much can we stand and what is our financial situation while we're standing it? And then it's just a matter of you show your cards at some point by who gives. And Pablo, where Dominique is 100% correct in the room. It's like saying oral arguments win the day in front of a judge. They do not. It's all about the briefs at the end of the day in a negotiation. Inside the room is posturing. Inside the room is giving people an opportunity to get stuff off their chest and to look good in front of their fellow negotiating team. But actual provisions are agreed to outside of those official bargaining sessions. So you guys fundamentally then agree on what is the actual game here, right? The game which shapes the biggest sports in America, which is will the players actually credibly threaten to sit out games? That's what this all drives towards. I mean, when I first got involved with the union, it was under Gene Upshaw and they had functionally lost a couple of strikes, I guess. I mean, the first one I would consider an outright loss. The second one they kind of considered outright loss. Gene was kind of against striking as a policy. But and they got their biggest win was from decertifying the union and exposing the league to antitrust and treble damages, which then as a function of the settlement, the league required the union to reconstitute in order to provide them that protection. So like I understand how difficult it is, but I also understand that that is the game. And the one thing I'll push back on David a little bit on is I did say billionaires and it was meant as like saying that the game is different for them because it is. And I know that maybe it's not as as easy for them to go without revenue as I make it sound. But it's certainly a lot easier than it is for the players, no matter how successful the player is. In part for two reasons. One is it's only 32 teams in football. So like the the windfall that they would get from the change in revenue split, which is ultimately what this all comes down to at the end of the day is how much money you get to put in your pocket, how much I get to put in my pocket, whether it's through benefits or accommodations or salary or any of that. That's what it all comes down to. But the benefit for them because it's only split 32 ways is huge. And not only is it huge, it's something that they keep into perpetuity and they hand that benefit off to their children. So the motivation for them to endure that is a lot bigger than a player. The actual logical extension for a current actual player is not to endure a strike or a lockout. It's not like you're not the the only thing which is why you go back to being like a social organization, a social movement is like the only thing that is powerful enough to overcome that logic is understanding that it's your responsibility. It's your obligation to uphold this because the guys who are benefiting from this today, you can go back to the players who went through the strikes. They ain't getting no money. The players that went through the strikes did not benefit from the strikes. What players that weren't like what an unpopular political position, Dominic, the truth. Yes, no, like the truth. It's a little more nuanced because this is not about you know, you don't have to you don't have to wonder why I didn't get invited to the players anymore. Now you know, it's funny. It's like any election, you know, go to go to student council. That's right. Pizza parties and vending machines. Everybody gets more snacks. Like no one wants to hear that you have to sacrifice for the people who are not you. I mean, that's what I get what you're saying. But like this is the difficulty, Dominic, of what I'm what I'm hearing is that you went in there and said the thing that is politically costly, but ultimately strategically the only move the union has, we just to organize. And it's interesting as we head into baseball labor negotiations, decertification is a word that we're going to be talking a lot about because that very easily could be the path that majorly baseball players association has to take in order for there to become a deal with this current labor deal that expires in December of 26. And what he said after with the owners requiring, think about that statement because it's totally correct, requiring them to recertify to become a union. This is fascinating. This part, the nuclear, the so-called nuclear option is fascinating. It's not really nuclear. They call it that because in my view, when you say nuclear, there's no recovering from that. Decertification is not a nuclear option because it leads to a deal and it leads to recertification, which leads to your back on the road. Man, Mr. Harvard Business School wants to wait into this. I mean, it's pretty risky maneuver for a couple of reasons because you the league will ultimately accuse you of a sham decertification, which then you'll have to fight in court, which the judge may or may not be on your side, probably considering the way the country feels about unions right now. My guess is the judge is probably not going to be on your side. You also, if you decertify your union, you're also clearing the way for someone else to create a union. So like you can decertify union and become an association and still provide a lot of the same services to your members, but you lose the ability to like automatically collect dues and all that stuff. And also you open the door for the league, which I'm sure that they do everything above board and they would not try to protect their fortunes in any way possible, but you open up a door for the league or for a, I don't know, a former player or anybody to come in and then reconstitute some sort of union. And like you have to, if you decertify, it can't be for the purposes of preparing for CBA negotiations. I think there's a real argument to say in advance of it. I'm not saying that. Right. But I mean, right, it has to be way in advance of it though. And it also has to be genuinely, not just as a in preparation, genuinely because you believe that the players are not served by having an official union. And also like you then make the teams operate separately, which then has a negative effect on the amount of revenue that you can generate that goes back into the pot. So one of the benefits is that the league can now go as a group and sell their TD rights. That's something that you wouldn't be able to do unless you had this union cover. As a player, I decertify the union, they can't do that no more. Now they got to go out and make these separate deals, the money changes. So it's just a whole, it worked then and it could work again. And it might be worth trying, but it's a lot more complicated, I think, than we like to present. Idle money lies in your current account picking crumbs out of its belly button wondering, should I eat them? But when you start investing with Monzo, your money's always busy. It turns on regular investments, invests your spare change and tops up your stocks and shares, Icer. It even helps you make sense of risk and return. Monzo, the bank that gets your money moving. You could get back less than you invest. Monzo current account required UK residents 18 plus T's and C's apply. Around about now. This is usually the bit in the radio ad where you drift off. You half listen, your brain wanders home. Not to the house itself, but to what it could be. That thing you'd be meaning to sort. The room you always shut the door on. The brown lampshade that came with the house seven years ago. And when you decide right today we do, B&Q has everything you need to get started. Tools, paints and yes, even the lampshade. You can do it when you be and cue it. People at work supported me by not treating me like somebody who was going through treatment. Treatment sucks. Answer sucks. Being engaged with work really helped to, oh, I just knew I was going to beat this day. Research shows that what's important for patients best outcomes is not only the treatment we give, but the ability for them to continue their lives, which often means continuing to work and have purpose for what they're doing. Learn more and sign the pledge at workingwithcancerpledge.com. The question of what kind of a person should run a labor union though. I do think something that Dominique mentioned before is worth emphasizing, which is that this thing does require a bunch of true believers who are of the genuine conviction that this thing is not a business. And in fact, it is governed by labor law, which is not business law, right? There's a difference. And so when I get to, okay, the rhetoric of someone like JC Treanor, go back to him for a second, and he's saying, finally, we get a former player back in charge. The thing I think about is, frankly, the 2023 election he ran. Dominique, who are the finalists for that? You're the reporter. Lloyd Howell and David White, neither of whom played in the NFL, neither of whom were athletes. And they went to David White as the interim. And they went to David White right after Lloyd Howell and JC Treanor both resigned, right? So when he had authority over who should be considered for this job, he did not pick a player. He did not encourage a player as a finalist in that regard. And then in this one, the only former player who was deemed suitable as a finalist was JC Treanor himself. Dominique, what do you think of that concept? You're the guy who played in the NFL, went to Harvard Business School, learned how the closed mahogany doors operate and what happens behind them, right? So you've, you, the whole thing of, I'm not just a player. I'm also this guy is also you. Yeah. And I learned that it's horseshit. What is it? The distinction between the two that I thought existed and the insecurity that I had about the intelligence and information and access and ability of people on the other side of that mahogany door is like, I remember when we were looking for an executive director, when I was on the executive committee, I was certainly like more impressed with the guys who weren't former players because I believed that there was something over there that we needed when ultimately I don't think it's true. Like after being on every side of this and looking at it from every different way, that stuff is not. And again, maybe if we were trying to like run a soft drink company or we wanted to be an accounting firm, yeah, but that's not what we're doing. That's not what we're doing. Dominique, what you're saying is that unions because of their social sort of foundation that you believe that they should be run as such, which means they wouldn't be business forward. But what's happening in every player's union is the opposite, where it is becoming business forward. I think sometimes things seem obvious to you that aren't obvious to other people. So I'll try to walk through this in a way that I think makes it more clear my thinking and then you can take, cut it down if need be, is what defines success for a player's union? It's the result of the CBA negotiations, right? I would say that's kind of the report card. That's the game that you can win or lose. How do you win that game? Is it the court cases or public pressure or ultimately work stoppage from either sides, strike or lockout? All right, that's the way you can win this. So how do the players have any power in that? If we win in court, it's the result of a win in court is not going to be that we win the negotiations. It's a win in court, right? There's nothing in court that's going, there's no way we can take them to court and get them to give us 75% of revenue. Like that's not it, right? If we win in court of public opinion, the fans can't force them to pay us and the fans aren't going to stop watching. We can't really get what we want from there. If we threaten the future of the game, threaten the public's relationship to the game, threaten their immediate revenue, we can get it. That is the only source of power that we actually have. So in that, then all your choices and maybe this is a simplified look for me is like, I think about these things in like a priority stack. And I think the league does also. So I would say that the first bar that I have to clear before I make any other decisions for every decision, does this get us closer to being able to extract the things that we want? If the answer is yes, then I can go down to something else. And that's my point is when I was searching for an executive director and before I like lived the rest of my post NFL life, I was like, Oh, the problem is we don't got good enough lawyers. It's not true because we're never going to outlaw your them. Like, or the problem is, all right, we don't we don't win in the court of public opinion. The fans turn on our players at the last minute and the players crumble as a result of it. We got to win in the court of public opinion. That don't matter. We never going to win that all these all these networks and streaming services, they don't want a relationship with the players. They want to make the NFL happy. That's a dumb place for us to fight. So I guess that's my only point is when we are making these decisions. It's easy for or it was I'll speak for myself when I was there. It's easy for me to be like, Oh, but you just don't understand what's happening over there. Once you get over there, you realize that it ain't nothing special happening over there. They're not smarter than us. They're not dumber than us. And I also think we make the mistake of we've made the mistake in the past of trying to like over vilify the owners of teams and the NFL because it's not true either. Like, they are people just like us. They're doing what's in their best interests. They have a lot of power that they wield in ways that we don't like. But sometimes you like them. They're cool. Hanging out with them is fine. I think we make the mistake of trying to be like, Hey, these guys are so terrible. We hate them so much. They hate you. They don't care about you. And then our players get around them and they're like, Oh, well, actually, that's not who they are. I think that FL has a priority stack also. The top thing on the priority stack is how much money they can put in their pocket. If it doesn't affect their money, then Oh, yeah, they do care about players. They don't like not care about players. They just care about money more. And of course, you have the same priority. You meaning capital Y, the union, they're trying to make as much money as possible too. So actually, that's where we will differ. I mean, we can debate this fact, but if the players ever had a goal that did not include more compensation, there would never be tough negotiations. There's two different conversations though. I think our goal is to generate enough power to be able to negotiate for the value that we think we deserve. I think the league's motivation is different. They're built to make money. So it's slightly different. And I think that slight difference matters in how you build an organization, who you should have a legal organization, how you go into negotiating. How many employees think that they are valued properly by their employer? Just a show of hands. Are you valued properly in your mind? I think it would be a bad negotiating strategy for me to say, yes, I am valued properly. Well, of course, but you actually think and I'll answer that because I've not come across an employee across my desk and maybe I just have the wrong employees over the decades I've been doing this, where someone says, oh, God, that is the thank you so much for that raise. Thanks for that bonus. You're overpaying me. This is so nice of you. I just have never heard anyone say that, nor have I said that as an employee. I've always wanted more. But isn't the point though that there should be this perpetual tension that results in something like a market? And the question is, and this is why it's kind of funny that I have been investing so much of my stupid life into caring about the NFLPA is that on some level, absent a strategy like the one that Dominique is proposing in which you're willing to fight the f***ing Vietnam War of social movements and sports. And you're trying to do everything you can to drag people into a fight in which suddenly they're surprised by how much pain you can inflict, even though you have smaller resources, smaller numbers, and all of that. Absent that, we are talking about a blowout. We're talking about a series of blowouts in which there is no tension that's counterbalancing. It's the side with the far more resources blowing the f*** out of the organization that Dominique used to be a part of. Yeah, I think you did it. That's like normally Pablo, you use a lot of words to say things that could be said in fewer. That time you just like did a much better job of saying the thing that it took me a lot of words to say. And yeah, that's it. Like, you can't win that way. There's only one way to win. What is the one way to win? The one way to win is to build an organization that is made up of players that is willing to withstand a lot of pain. I just haven't come across that in my existence because you guys get older and owners, as you said, have a longer horizon. So I just don't see the willingness and we can talk about baseball, obviously, or football, but the pain that you're talking about, you have to measure what the pleasure will be at the end. And if the pleasure is for people who are not you, then that's very hard equation. I mean, I can I try a different analogy maybe, which I think will resonate with everyone is like, for those of us who've like, have some affiliation to a school or something like that. If someone if you want to wear your sweatshirt to the school that you went to, and someone walked up to you and said, I'll give you $100 to never wear a sweatshirt to the school that you went to again, you probably be like, yeah, sure. That's fine. I'll take that money. I'll give you $100 every year that you don't wear that. I'll take that. I get it. If someone walked up to you and said, you have to like, divorce your wife and never talk to your family again, I'll give you $100 every year that you do that. You would say I'll do it for 50. That's what you say. That's what you say. So the glory of this show is that you guys are both lobbing hypotheticals that in some ways, you've actually both lived. But I guess that's my point is there is I get where we are right now. I see how what I am saying sounds absurd is expecting people to have this level of commitment to a union. I know how it sounds absurd, but that's how they felt about the union when it was formed. That's how every union feels about the union. That's how every union that has any success feels about their union. And then you have enough success that people stop feeling that way about the union. And then things start heading in the other direction until they get so bad that everybody starts to feel like that again about the union. And then they're willing to sacrifice again for the union. I'm just saying we can skip all that bullshit. It's like a marriage, doesn't it? It actually sounds like a lyric from a song that comes to mind. Dreamcrolls. Mama Mia, here I go again. My, my, how can I resist you? I can't resist you, Dominique. I can't quit you. I don't understand how that does relate. I don't know. That was just a reach. Yes, I've been brokenhearted. Blue, since the day we parted. Why, why did I ever let you go? Is this a song about a young woman looking for a father in the Greek islands or Dominique Foxworth as a relationship with the N of LPA? It's hard to tell. No, I have to say, but all is terrible. Now, the terrible connection you try really try to force that Mama Mia thing. This is all being edited out, Dominique. Every word you say from this point forward is not in the show. So he was googling Mama Mia lyrics trying to find his connection for the last 30 minutes. And that was the best you could come up with. That's terrible. In post, I'm going to absolutely nail this. That's awful. Popplatory Finds Out is produced by Walter Averroa, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lohman, Rob McRae, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, and Chris Tubenelo. Our studio engineering is by RG Systems, our sound design by Andrew Bursek at NGW Post, Digital Strategy by Bailey Carlin and Andrew Northern, and our theme song, as always, by John Bravo. We'll talk to you next time. Ah, nature. Always calling it just the right time. When life plays dirty, water wipes. Now two times stronger and even softer, ready for whatever happens back there. 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