OB430: The Aspen Squeeze Play

What you should understand about this is that this would not be allowed to happen at a place where it didn't have to happen. There's no way that they would let us do this. Ready. Welcome to opposing bases air traffic talk, an aviation podcast by two air traffic controllers and rated pilots who love to talk about flying, controlling and everything in between. The show is for entertainment purposes only and should not be used as a substitute for your instructor, your supervisor, the FAA, the NTSB or your CAT. The show will give you a better understanding of how things work in the national airspace system and maybe even make you laugh along the way. Please welcome retired Army pilot Alpha Golf and course officer at Penguin Airlines Romeo Hotel. It's Wednesday, March 25th, 2026 episode 430. Before we get started this week, we want to take a moment to acknowledge the crash at LaGuardia a few nights ago. Our thoughts are with the two pilots who lost their lives, the passengers who were injured, the fire and rescue crews who responded and the controller working the operation as it unfolded. We're not going to speculate or get into details, but it's on our minds and we're thinking about everyone affected. Yes, absolutely. All right. Now I can read the beginning of a normal show. Okay. On today's show, we'll talk about some cool ATC procedures in the mountains to reveal most controllers are psychic and answer more of your aviation questions. What's up, A.G.? Hello, hello, everyone. See how I shifted gears there? I went from serious. Yeah. To let's have fun. Yes. This episode has to hold up forever. We can't not have fun on this show. It happens every time. How have you been? My neck. I don't know. I don't know what happened. I just woke up this morning. My neck hurts. I can't move my head really. My wife suggested a show segment several years ago called What's Broken on A.G.? Yeah. And it could either be your body or your house. Right, right. Right now we have the ants. And the neck. They infiltrated the kitchen? They just everywhere. I have the house treated too. I don't know. It's just that time of year. They got in. They found something. Yeah. And they told all their friends where all the food is. It's the kids fault. No doubt. You got out on the rivers. You did some fishing? I did. I had a real weekend. With all of the days off. Excellent. Yeah. I just Sunday afternoon decided it's too nice to do chores and stuff. I'm going to the mountains. And so I went. Did you catch anything? I caught one trout, a rainbow. Very pretty good. Pretty good size. Okay. It was a lot of fun. It was a gorgeous day. Beautiful. There was a butterfly hatch. I've never seen so many. What is a hatch? They hatched. They all came out. They were all alive and present. At the same time, hundreds of them. Yeah. I'm assuming they all just hatched. Yellow ones. Okay. Big yellow ones. It sounds like you got the deserved couple of days off. It was nice. You have normal weekends coming up now, don't you? For a little while? Yeah. For a little bit. I got that spring break I have off and then have an overtime maybe the week after. After spring break. Yeah. My schedule is up in the air. Literally in April. I am a line holder again and we have a trip to the beach for spring break and a couple of trips that happened on Wednesday. So we're going to do a double today and probably next week as well. Mm-hmm. And we're going to knock out most of the month of April in the next couple of weeks. Anyway. Excellent. I'm back from another trip. I did a commute this week that was positive space. I bought a ticket. I took the advice of others and you know what? It's not worth doing a no-bar ride from Duke again. I'm just going to buy a ticket. That makes the ride home a little less stressful and here's why. I had bought a ticket for a 3 p.m. two leg through Washington. Okay. No problem. And I was set to get on the ground at just afternoon which is pretty early but off time I'll be able to just take my time. I have a seat. I'm getting on this plane which is usually filled with crew members. It's base to base. It's always full of dead-heading crews. It goes from like 100 open seats to negative 50 and boom in a minute. So this is like I'm going to feel good getting on this plane. How many times have I been delayed coming out of London? I think twice and that was one of them. Of course. The day I have a ticket. Yeah. There was a security issue. I'll leave it at that. It took several hours to solve said security issue but I was able to rebook my ticket and get at the direct that I avoided because that's the flight that I swear Penguin tries to cancel all the time. The one that goes directly to where I live because of me. It's all about me. Yeah, it is. But I got a ticket on that and then I got upgraded to first class. I was feeling pretty good. Got home. I was home for dinner time. Wow. Yeah. It went, it pushed early. The plane wasn't broken or overweight. Huh. Or over fueled. Or over fueled. Yeah. Which causes them to be over. Yeah. All the things work. Yeah. So then I went and got my car and drove home. It's surprising how frequently that happens where they say, hey, we're pushing back but we need to go sit somewhere and burn gas. Because we're too heavy. Yeah. Seems like, huh, maybe you could take that. I guess defueling the plane. That is a process that costs a lot of time and money. And I think in some places the fuel is unusable again. So you're basically just putting it down the drain. Oh. You might as well turn it into noise. Right. Yeah. Heat. And noise. Right. And that's usually because they're still complying with their ramp weights but they're above their takeoff weight, maximum, which probably translates to something with their landing weight. So burn it now. I've been on planes when they've had to do that. It's frustrating. But at least you're going. So yesterday I had, I worked in emergency. An airline, regional departed triad going to Metroplex. Okay. Departed northeast bound, turned northwest bound. And then cleared direct to a fix on the arrival. In what amounted to be a downwind at 10,000 feet. In a very sort of startled voice said, we're declaring an emergency. We're returning to the field. I said, okay. Clear to try it. Just to maintain 3,000. Excellent. Fly the setting. Call Leon, take the handoff back. They already took it. Okay. Yeah, they had already taken it. They said I'll try to flash it back. They did not. I'm sure they didn't. Because they'd have to amend the destination. Yeah, this would be work to do. They're not going to do that. No. But I just said, let me know what you need. I wasn't going to bug them. I can't stand it when we start playing 20 questions. They're right in the middle of this thing. It was a bleed air. What did he say? Ducked. Leak. Okay. They were worried about the engine getting hot. Anyway, I waited. The next thing that happened is he came on frequency. Call sign, pan pan, pan pan, pan pan. I'm like, oh, we're escalating. This feel like we're escalating this a little bit. It's actually a de-escalation, but... Right. But it felt like... Right. Because now the urgency sounded even higher. Okay. And I'm like, okay. Well, and I'm still waiting. I'm not looking them. They did. They finally came back. They said this many on board, this much fuel, this is what we're doing. I didn't have to extract it. I didn't have to bother them. I just vectored them back around. I moved everybody else out of the way. They landed. Okay. Did you have to do anything crazy with vectors? Because I have a follow-up question too. I'm giving you all that information, but go ahead. Nothing. They're super high. They're super high. They were very high. Okay. I think we just had an understanding that you're high. I can't slam dunk you. Mm-hmm. I don't think they were prepared for that anyway. Mm-hmm. They were pretty busy running a checklist because I took them plenty far out, probably 15-mile final. Mm-hmm. I immediately started them down to three. I vectored a couple other planes out of the way. Where I felt like was a reasonable place to turn their base is when I turned. They still went through final. Mm-hmm. Because they just were busy, I think. The whole interaction was just sort of, you could tell they were distracted. Mm-hmm. But... Fire trucks? Yes. They requested them. All right. Yeah. They said, we want to trucks. We want to make sure this engine doesn't catch on fire or whatever. Mm-hmm. So, that was interesting. Good job. Yeah. I love how you paused. I love how you didn't ask them anything and bug them. I love how they offered it all to you to basically cut you off from asking them. Yep. Had they not been at 10,000, I would have said, how long do you need? But it sounds like that time was bought with the descent. And that's... You answered the question that way. You can't turn them at a normal, you know. So, a typical base turn is, you know, 10, 8 to 12 mile final. Maybe 10 is a sweet spot, you know, point the field out, all the things that you can't do that because they probably still be at 6 or 7,000 feet and you would have... Yeah. Essentially given them a space shuttle descent that they couldn't do, which would have compounded the problem. So, good work. Yeah. Just let them do their thing. All right. And everybody got on the ground safely. Everybody wins. Yeah. Okay. Shall we begin? Let us begin. All right. Since OB 429, we have some new members on the iceberg, Julliq Kilo, Charlie Tango, Bravo Vox Drop, Victor Papa, Bravo Hotel and Tango Sierra. We got a PayPal drop from November Alpha. And on Patreon, Charlie Mike tripled their monthly pledge. Thank you. Yeah. If you've been enjoying the show, you can take it to the next level by joining our premium feed on Supercast. Supporters get every episode on time with no delays. Our entire back catalog, depending on your tier, access to our live stream, bonus audio and a direct line to us through our supporter only email. You'll keep the show ad free and community supported. Learn more at opposingbases.supercast.com. Thank you everybody. Yes, thank you. Good. Good. Good. Oh, no. Preview and announcements. Preview and announcements. I already did. See how I did the banners. Do you like it? Yes. I already did. See how I did the banners? Do you like how I summarized that one? Yes. That's very good news. That's excellent. Go. All right. This review titled, Finally, a podcast that makes me feel less dumb and more informed. That is not a commentary on the content. It is just, if you just listen to these two guys long enough, you'll realize that you're not as dumb as some people and that you are more informed. At least, at least two of us. Five stars, naturally. AG and RH have done the impossible. It made me realize that my hours in the NAS were basically just me confidently bumbling around like a toddler with a radio. I thought I had it all figured out. Turns out my IFR and private was just a learner's permit for the real education. Before opposing bases, I was flying alone. Now, I'm a fully engaged participant in this beautiful aerial ballet arena we call the National Airspace System. I went from, yeah, I talked to ATC to actually understanding what we're talking about and why. It's like going from karaoke to actually learning music theory. Suddenly, all the notes make sense. AG and RH have this magical ability to break down complex ATC procedures and airspace operations into digestible, hilarious morsels of wisdom. They've taught me that being a good pilot isn't just about flying the airplane, it's about being part of the team that keeps the whole system working smoothly. If your private pilot license was a license to learn, consider this podcast your graduate level curriculum taught by two professors who actually make you want to show up to class. Keep the insights coming, gentlemen. Or as my wife calls your professor, robot head, and doctor aviation guru, you're making us all better pilots. One episode at a time, blue skies and proper flight following requests. I'm Per Captain Juliet Leymassiere at the Northeast Cowboy Military Cemetery under the Coffee Bravo. That is a great review. Please some nominate that for an OB. One day we will do the Obies for 25, but this one should be a nominee for the OB26 Awards place. Yeah, put that in the file. Peter. This could sort of just be like the front page of our website. We should play that as sort of like a promo on our website. Are you reading that review? Oh, I would have read it better if I knew that. Let's do it again. Okay. You read it perfectly. All right, announcements. Quick shout out to a listener that was at the same restaurant I was eating at. I was wearing an OB shirt this weekend and a listener came up and said hello. And quick shout out to Andrew, who flies out of Duke. I said, I'm sorry to hear that. My condolences. All the time. Yeah. It was nice meeting you. Oh, man. And yeah. Number two, Emperor Captain Whiskey Mike said, greetings, fellow Whiskey Mike from the presidential non-tour just west of Metroplex. I'm here to announce that I passed my commercial ride with legendary golf hotel today who makes his living out of Antenna Airport. Obligatory photo attached, of course, wearing an OB shirt. Keep up the good work. I think that's the one that I put under number three there. Okay. I just think I just slid it into the wrong spot. You want number three? Congratulations, Whiskey Mike. Yeah, congrats. Number three, Supercaster Julia Alima is a commercial pilot. Congrats. Congratulations. I'll subscribe for Julia Alima checking in after 46 years of navigating the skies as a private instrument rated pilot. I decided three years into retirement that it was time to level up and get my commercial certificate, not for a new career, but simply to become the best stick and rudder pilot I could be. By the time I finally secured a date with a DPE, I had been hit with so many delays on the ground that my wife started looking at my open textbooks with genuine concern. Don't you know that stuff by now? She'd asked, you've been studying for two years. This past April on a bumpy 95 degree day, I finally stepped up. The aura was a breeze and I nailed the power off 180 like I've been doing them since the Eisenhower administration because maybe you have, I don't know, mission accomplished commercial pilot. Congrats. Awesome. Julia Alima, congrats. He also shared some very sad news. Yeah, I just summarized it there. I didn't want to, yeah. Got it. In his announcement, well, we were not sharing that with our audience. We do want to acknowledge the fellow aviators that he lost along the way. Tailwinds and blue skies to our lost brothers, Julia Alima. Yeah, congratulations. And that's awesome. I think after 46 years of flying to say I'm going to do this other certificate, clearly you didn't need to do that. It was voluntary for your own progression. Good on you. There's a thing like that I have found is not always about these specific maneuvers or what you might get out of this rating, but it is about the little things you pick up along the way of this process. The other things that come into view through doing this new thing, the habits you might pick up, the little tips and things that maybe aren't directly related to this, but that you would not have been exposed to otherwise. And I think those can be super beneficial outside of the practical application of what do I do with this rating now. Agreed. That many years of flying experience, you bring so much more to the table. You're teaching your instructor something for sure. You have stories and experiences that they haven't had yet. So you're bringing a lot to that rating. Cool. All right, moving on. Bye, music. Die, I'm not being back. I was laughing earlier when I did that video with the YouTuber last week. We were coming back from London and he said, hey, I listened to one of your shows. What do you do to edit and make that robot sound? And I said, what do you mean? Then I just said, what's up, Beijing? He said, oh, that's just how you sound. I love it. Yep. No editing required. You want number one? Number one, which we moved from last week. Yes. From Supercaster Alpha Fox, right? Hello, R.H.N.A.G. I have a quick question and I hope the answer doesn't push another penguin off my melting iceberg. Would the introduction of ADSB out, why is it still necessary to rely on radar as a primary source of data? Do ADSB and radar data complement each other to provide the information needed for ATC? Is there a plan for ADSB data to become the main source of information in the future? Thank you for all the hard work. You put into making the best aviation podcast. Keep it up, Alpha Fox, just south of the Coffee Bravo. Okay. Yes, ADSB and primary radar and secondary radar all fuse together. In addition, at least at our facility with two long range radars, we have a lot of sources. Three that we have locally, well, ADSB, primary, secondary, and then two long range center radars all fused together in a system that is called Fusion. Fusion radar in the future. Yes. It came out right when Atari came out. It did. It works really, really well. Our primary radar went out last week for a couple of days. The only real impact was with non-ADSB aircraft at lower altitudes until the center radars could pick them up. One say would get 4,000 or 5,000 feet that would become less of a problem, but almost everything else worked without, you would barely have known the radar stopped spinning. No ISRs and increased separation requirement, no system monitoring that says this signal's a little bit sketchy. Only with non-ADSB. Wow. Plans. Now, I know we weren't allowed to touch this button, but controllers touch buttons. We're not supposed to touch all the time. Let's just say hypothetically you've done this, maybe on the scope on the other side of the room. Okay. What happens if you just went to ADSB as the sole only source and shut everything off? Would ISR come up? Because if it doesn't. Yes, it does. It does. Okay. I believe so. All right. Because with our radar off, aircraft that were 30 miles from the airport at 2,000, you know, climbing, let's say off of Steamer, they were ISR'd. I take that back. Aircraft off of Triad, low, non-ADSB had ISR, which means now we have to go to five miles off separation, which isn't the end of the world. But if they had ADSB, nothing. Okay. No. So maybe you're, maybe that's, maybe it is, maybe ADSB only because you're not getting picked up by the center radar yet, that low. No. IS, isn't ISR. In other words. I would have to look at it again. I think we could go experiment with that on the scope in the back. Because if it doesn't, and I believe, and I can't quote the rags, I'm not going to try, but it is an approved source of data, I think without primary, secondary, or long range radar supplements. Yeah, that's very interesting. So could you have two ADSB, like sole source ADSB data, aircraft, three miles apart co-altitude? I think the rags allow that, but it doesn't, it's not written in a way that says, all right, shut off all of those other. Yeah, on purpose. Fusion sources. Yeah. Because if it can, at least over non-Oceanic, where we have ADSB ground antennas, they're all over the place. I don't know how many are in triad airspace, but there's a lot. They're picking up signals all over the place and somehow feeding it back into the system that I should know how it's getting back to us. I'm not sure if it has to go through space or not come back down, but if it's giving us valid, useful, accurate position, why do we need the spinning antenna? And in your case, it went out. Now it had other sources at the time, but if it was the only one, that could change everything if that was how you ran traffic with only ADSB. Yeah. I don't know. I kind of old school, I like to have a local independent source that can be, I don't know, that isn't susceptible to being shut off or jammed or. Yeah. Okay. Maybe I'm got a little excited there. I'm not suggesting get rid of it. Yeah. But in cases like yours, it worked. And was it working and not giving us our because there was long range to help it out. It sounds like maybe. Maybe I don't. Question mark. Yeah, I don't know for sure. But the ones that had ADSB were working fine. Yes. And in other words, that fused ball, that blue target on the screen, it doesn't tell the controller what it's composed of. We just accept it. This is where this plane is. This is what the computer says because it's pulling in all of this data. And it says with very high accuracy, this is exactly where this airplane is over planet Earth. Yes. So we had a P8 come in during that period of time to do pattern work. When they came in, their ADSB was off. And it wasn't really noticed until they were in the tower pattern and their tag was jumping around. It would jump like a mile. Because no primary. Both of them had no primary. Right. And they had no ADSB. How did the jumping make you feel? Yeah, really bad. And so when that started happening, we said, hey, are you guys ADSB capable? They said, yeah. I said, well, I don't think it's on. Can you recycle it? Or like, oh yeah, we'll check it. And they turned it, I guess they then turned it on. No problems after that. Excellent. But it definitely was a problem before. Okay. And when you have a tag jumping around like a mile at a time, you're confidence in exactly where, like you're saying, I can be confident that I know where this dot is, that it is where it says it is. That starts to diminish very quickly. Yeah. If I saw it jump a mile once, I'm done. I don't like that. Yeah. Yeah, we're getting reports from you. Tell us exactly where you are. Yeah. Right. Okay. I think we answered that. Maybe we're going to- Is there a plan for it to become the main source? I don't think so. Maybe. But I don't think that's been made public. For the ocean, ADSC, the satellite ADS-B readers, somebody can see us the whole time. There's apps on the internet that can see us the whole time. And we play this non-radar game. We go on tracks. We're all spaced out by time. They will not let you use visual separation to climb through somebody else that you can see 20 miles ahead of you. They won't let you do that. They treat us entirely non-radar out there. If they could make it where ADSC was valid for us, I'm telling you, this is exactly where I'm at. It would change across an ocean game big time. Yeah. Big time. Huh. Yeah. I feel like you have to get number two also. I do. Yeah, it's about you. My agent will be in touch. Number two, supercaster and go, Papa. Email subject line, happy national survey day. Oh my word. Here we go. Hello, R-H-N-A-G. Just listen to the live broadcast of 428. Oh my word. And I'm the survey pilot at 62, not 65 or six, only 62. I'm from just outside the Mormon Bravo West of the Rockies and have been weathered out at the closed Krispy Kreme Delta for the last four weeks. I appreciate it being able to listen to your banter on frequency. I guess I'm a real NASA user now looking forward to more entertaining episodes. Oh man. I, you being a supportive of the show does not change what I said. Because and maybe you were out yesterday too because we had two out at six-ish going north-south and when we're on the fives, I cannot tell you how much of a, especially the way you were spaced out. You're doing these north-south lines there probably 10 or 15 miles apart. And so the arrivals from the northwest, I have to stop at seven until I know that they're passing you or can get ahead or behind you before I descend them. If they get stuck at seven and your counterpart is anywhere near there, I really need to be getting dropping them down after they pass the first one. But now I got this other guy at six and everybody's thinking, yeah, oh yeah, they're just VFR. Why does it matter? Well, because if I'm busy like it was yesterday, I don't have time to sit there and watch and vector and anytime you take one of these surveys off their line, now they've got a to do a big 360 to get back established, get everything set up before they start recording again. And it just becomes an extra thing now that you're adding into the problem. And I get it, you've got your job to do, but it is a strain. It really is. And I know you could be out there on a 1200 code not talking to anybody. You're not in any sort of airspace. You choose to get flight falling, which is helpful. It is helpful. It isn't that it's the flight following part. It's not the talking to you. It is the missing you with planes all day descending with a tailwind, having a hard time getting down as it is. And now when I have to stop them at seven, it just becomes, it's definitely a thing. It was great for my trainee yesterday to have to work around that constantly all day long. It's easy to forget when you have this guy just back and forth and back and forth and sort of kind of forget that he's there when he's going to make a turn. Really forced him to be on his toes so much so, and he did well enough that I said, I'm done training this guy. He's recommended. Excellent. He's got him off. All it took was a few survey pilots in a way, all the whole session. All day. Now they'll be asking for them to come out. Cool. Thank you, Tango Papa. Yeah. All right. Thanks for sending that. Fancy jet music. All right. All right. This week's show topic, I have lightly penciled in a show topic, a show title, the Aspen Wrap and Westbound Cut-Off Maneuvers. Nice. From Supercat, certainly Medellta, hello, A.G. and R.H. I'm sending in possibly the least timely feedback along with some questions in binging the back catalog of Obi-Gold. I recently listened to episode 161. The episode was one in a series about obstacle departures and there was feedback about what I called the best rich people mountain airport. Well, A.G. saw the fix M-O-O-R-N and decided that it was pronounced moron. But as you can see in this picture from a few days ago, this fix is named after the maroon bells, not the moron bells. Yeah, A.G. What moron you are? Hold on a minute. Who took this photo? Is this from? This is not the picture that they said they put in the email. It wasn't attached. I stole this shamelessly off the internet and it's amazing. You got to put it on the screen so they see this. Okay. Maroon for the color and not moron for the people who try to drive their cars up the bus only road to see said bells. Right. All right. Now to my actual questions. While I grew up near rich people airport, I have done most of my training and flying from the first mile is free for your non-existent space plane airport under the blouse of a Bravo. I have flown into and out of rich people airport a few times now and I think that is one of the most fun and interesting approaches and environments for general aviation pilots to fly. For those unfamiliar, this airport is essentially placed in a box canyon. If you scroll down, there's a couple more pictures there that might be able to pull up. And for the majority of operations, it's one way in and one way out. We're going to talk about that. There's probably a picture below those. There you go. I'm looking west-ish into this airport towards the final of one five. Yeah. We're up on the upper right of that picture if we're looking down. So. Yeah. Anyway, this airport is mountainous. It's in between lots of higher places in the mountains and you're calling it fun for general aviation. I would probably rank this as one of the more stressful places if I had to fly there in an airplane that wasn't equipped to fly that high. But we'll get into that in a minute. It's in a box canyon. A majority of operations is one way in and one way out, landing one five, which is in the direction of that picture on the left and departing the other way back where you came from. This is one five right here. Yes. Yes. And that's the, for exactly, you're like, that's the better solution? Yes. Hold on a minute. Okay. Yeah. I'm totally backwards. So you're telling me. It's that one right there. Yep. You're looking up from where, see where the ridge is up in that picture you're on? I'm looking from over here. Now you're looking from to the right. Over here. There you go. Yep. Really? Yes. However, small GA and occasional jet, which is great fun to see land on three three, which requires a turning final over one of the ski mountains. And what some might call the legendary opposing finals. The next step up from the mythical opposing basis as someone whose job in an ass is to squash big bugs. I think this is great fun. We have different definitions of what fun is my friend. But the second time I flew this approach with a local instructor, I was faced head on with a global slowly making a turn off of, off the runway into Alpha six. So the, he's landing runway one five. He's turning left while you're approaching on final four. You're going to have to zoom out because your notes are all still on the screen. No, I'm trying to find something else here. Okay. Sorry. I'm not paying attention because I'm so turned around on this picture. Yeah. I can't. And I guess it doesn't really matter. I just, you're looking like a 150 heading from there. Just parallel on the runway and the, in the picture on the left from up here. Yep. Yes. Huh. Okay. All right. So he's describing a scenario where he actually lands in the direction to the northeast on three, three while an airplane is exiting after landing on one five. So the first question, how would timing like this, he's, he missed the funniest part of this so far. I'm sorry. I might call, he calls it the opposing finals. The next step up from the mythical opposing basis. All right. Okay. So the global's turning off at Alpha six. How would the timing for this be coordinated by the tower? Or is this one of those things where we say must go faster? We haven't said that in forever. I have to find that button. Must go faster. Must go faster. I found it. Okay. All right. Well, let's start off that way. We're going to ease into this because I found out other things about this airport and with some of these questions that we're going to talk about today. So if you are, you just cleared an airplane to land on one five and there's another one on final for three three. This goes against a lot of what we are allowed to do at most airports right now. You would have had opposite direction. There would have been a cutoff point. We'll briefly touch on that, but yeah. Yeah. It sort of depends locally what the, what the procedure is. We have a 10 mile cutoff. So aircrafts landing must be landed. I'm going to butcher the rule here. See they're, you know, touchdown over the threshold or clear of the runway. I don't think it's that clear. Clear the runway is not necessary, but they must be doing one of those things before aircraft B is 10 miles. It's a 10 mile cutoff. Right. So this, in this case, if you're on short final and you're watching them turn off of the opposite direction runway, they have different rules up there or get right. Either their rules are different or they just blatantly ignoring them. Have to do something else to make it work. I don't know. Now there's a letter. We're going to talk about it on departure out of this airport. They use the wrap maneuver procedure for flying off of runway 33. They turn slightly to the right heading 343 and are given a 273 heading a westbound turn after passing the inbound aircraft. How is the separation applied? Is it tower applied visual separation or is it radar used as well? I believe this tower is a tray cab all of the time. The radar controller and the tower controller are next to each other. You can confirm that with a friend at work. I would be curious. How was she listened? I want to know what she thinks about this episode. All right. I'm going to touch on some of, I'm not going to read the whole thing, the rich people airport opposite direction operation letter to airmen that's out that describes how they're illegally getting away from, well, away with this and the procedures that pilots need to understand when they operate at an airport that primarily lands one way and departs opposite direction. So you're coming and going from the same part of the world. Okay. Okay. The departure would take you off of the northeast, northwest runway 33, a slight turn to the right and then you would turn to the west. Basically climbing while you navigate between peaks of mountains. This is not to be taken lightly. These procedures here. Yeah. Yeah. This is like serious terrain. Right. And in a general aviation aircraft, if you're departing at an airport that's in the 7 to 8,000 foot range, your airplane is already suffering from high altitude sickness. Yeah. It can't do anything quickly, climbing very slowly. Okay. I'm going to read what the westbound in front of procedure is. If you want to scroll down and look at the pictures while I'm talking about it, it'll make more sense to you because I know I'm dumping a lot on you at one time on this. All right. One way to accomplish this is if this leads into what you said. At Triad, there's a 10 mile cutoff. A 10 mile cutoff would basically make this airport useless. You would have to have all your arrivals come in and there would be a designated departure window because they wouldn't be able to have anybody on final. They would not have enough time to get out. The 10 mile cutoff would basically shut the airport down. Are we on the same page so far? Yeah. All right. With one of their maneuvers, it's called the westbound in front of procedure. It's used when there's sufficient spacing on one, five final approach path to allow a runway 33 departure to depart, climb through 9,100 feet, and then make a left turn to a 273 to join a radial outbound passing in front of the arrival. The picture you're looking at shows them kind of doing both. We're going to talk about two different maneuvers, but you're exactly. They are turning in front of an aircraft that's on about a 10 mile final in the picture we're looking at. In theory though, they are now above this aircraft or they just laterally separated. Yes. Yes. I'll keep reading. This is... I know. It makes me nervous too. The controller will issue a takeoff clearance with inbound traffic information in time for the runway 33 departure to begin the takeoff roll prior to the 1,5 arrival reaching a point 15 to 17 miles from the runway. Flight crews will promptly depart and per the departure, CID turn right to 343, then climbed 9,100 feet and execute a left turn to 273 to complete the procedure. It is essential, this letter says, that arriving aircraft remain on the runway 15 approach path and less otherwise instructed by ATC. Failure to comply with these procedures may result in the tower canceling the approach clearance or issuing alternate instructions to prevent the loss of separation. They've timed this out. They know this will work. If you are on a 15 to 17 mile final, Mr. Big Jet and this airplane wants to depart, they know they have enough time to clear them for takeoff, turn right, climb to 9,100 feet and turn in front of you. Are you on the same page right now? A little bit scared? Yeah, I don't like it. Okay. We're going to talk about the second maneuver then. Okay. Which maybe it'll make you feel more comfortable. The wrap procedure is used on a runway 15 arrival is closer to the runway. So they've penetrated that 15 to 17 mile mark. There's no way you can turn in front of them. So now we're going to turn behind them, but we're still going to launch this airplane right at them. Hold on a minute. So we're looking at this? Yeah. The pictures are really... That is the one. The one that goes around the four mile guy. Yes. Okay. Okay. The wrap procedure is used. Okay, I read that. The intent is for the departure to pass the arrival to the east, then turn westbound to a 273 behind the first guy, the four mile guy in the picture. Behind this guy? Yep. And in front of a 12 mile guy. Yes. Which must be 12 miles when this one tags up? That's not clear from this because that guy would have fallen outside the 15 to 17 miles when they said go. So we've eaten up about five miles in that, three to five miles. Are you still uncomfortable? But we need eight miles between these planes. For this to work, this specific picture? Yes. Okay. The arrival aircraft speed and the departure's aircraft's anticipated performance are essential factors. That line cannot be understated. Say that again. The arrival aircraft's speed and the departure aircraft's anticipated performance are essential factors. Once an aircraft completes the wrap procedure, it still may be executing the westbound in front of procedure. So I didn't ask you anything. My watch decided to tell me what time it was. So the picture you were looking at was a combination of two. They wrapped around the first arrival that was too close to turn in front of them. So they went behind them. And they go in front of number two. Here's the answer to the question. Tower applied visual separation is utilized during this procedure requiring VMC conditions. The tower will issue a runway 33 lineup and wait clearance to the departure, then issue a takeoff clearance with inbound traffic information in time for the departure to begin the takeoff roll prior to arrival reaching a five mile final from runway 15. So the first one that you're going to go behind, man, this is like threading the needle. We know we're going to have you turn behind them, but they can't have reached a five mile final when you say clear for takeoff. This has to be an art they learn in training. Flight crews will promptly comply with the lineup and wait instructions and be prepared for an immediate departure once cleared for takeoff. All right, I'll pause right there. First I want little I know about this. I'm going to let you ask me a question. Okay. Well, there's so many things. This is a great example of, it's just so unusual, but it's like, this is the only way that really we can accomplish this and actually move airplanes when it's halfway busy. What you should understand about this is that this would not be allowed to happen at a place where it didn't have to happen. There's no way that they would let us do this. No. Even if we said, well, look, they're doing it here. No. No, they have to do it here. They need it. You don't need it. You could depart like a normal airport in the same direction as the arrivals. The part about performance, what do you think the training is like for this? What are you telling a trainee about aircraft types? What are you going to tell them about? I know what I would tell them, but what do you think? They're there day one. In order for this to work and comply with this agreement we have for this, they have to be at 9,100 feet before they can turn west. If it's a jet, it's less than 1,000 feet off the field. It's not that big of a deal. Is there a performance hit? Sure. At 8,000 feet. But if you're trying to get a Skyhawk, Skylane, I'll be careful. I don't want to upset anybody. This is a high airport. Yeah, a fully loaded. Let's just say props. If you're trying to get a propeller-driven aircraft to get to that altitude before they go behind and then in front of somebody else, it won't work. It probably doesn't work. When it's warm out. It's not going to work. There are jets where this could be. Yeah, cool. Questionable. Yeah, fully loaded, tons of bags, tons of skiing peoples and all their stuff, and it's hot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're running a squeeze. Maybe not. Maybe there's a bunch of, maybe this buffer, this eight mile spacing is a pretty good buffer. But I'm telling you, if you said, if you were in the tower here and there were planes on final, and you said, I'm going to put this guy in position, opposite direction, and clear him for takeoff when this other plane is on a five mile final. I would tell you were crazy. Yeah. Even though you're giving him a slight right turn to wave to them as they pass. Right. This isn't, go ahead. This is not unlike the mistake I made on a mid one time. Now, I did opposite direction on parallel runways. These planes aren't sharing the same piece of pavement, but we're still not allowed to do that. Well, my timing sucked. My timing to meet the 10 mile cutoff, which was completely blown up by the departure, the departing aircraft. Thank you. Thank you. Heavy 767, who I cannot tell to expedite. I feel what's happening. I get it. Yeah. Anyway. You needed them airborne before the other one got within 10 miles. While they were rotating, I said, I need an immediate left turn. You have to turn. I made this procedure. You did a southbound in front of? Uh-huh. Okay. The arrivals like, hey, we got that guy inside if it helps. I'm like, I wish it did. Tell me that in a couple of miles, please. Right. Yeah. Okay. So that answers the first question. It's tower applied visual separation, and we need great weather. This only works if they can see you. News flash. You can't do this with a helicopter anymore. We're going to talk about that on the second episode. Oh, good. Okay. Are you excited? Yes. All right. Number three, the rich people airport is a class Delta and has a Treycon. However, there is no Tursa ring. Just call outs on the sectional to contact approach. Is there a major difference between this setup and a Tursa? I have not always been handed off to departure after takeoff, but otherwise it seems to operate like I would expect from a class Charlie, which hopefully it will become at some point or a Tursa. It probably won't become a Tursa. I cannot imagine it becoming a Charlie. It is unusual to have a radar facility associated with a Delta. It's probably not the norm. Is that fair to say? Uh-huh. But it's also not normal to have a TreyCab operation all the time. I don't think they have a Treycon. So these two controllers are literally next to each other. That is an important piece of this. Yes. And they are coordinating this. This fancy wrap will be foe maneuver, you guys call it. I don't know what their shorthand is. You're doing it together. This isn't blind. You're not getting on the phone saying, Hey, I'm about to do this again. They're sitting right next to them. Yeah. Here's what I'm going to do right now. I'm going to take a screenshot of this and send it to this controller. Oh, good. And say, tell me more. Tell me what is happening here. Do you get some sort of extra time at work to deal with the psychological impact this procedure may have on you? Yeah. You know, if you didn't know any different, I guess you just like, Oh, okay. Well, that's cool. But if you'd worked to anywhere else for any amount of time, when you come in, you're like, What are you guys doing? This is the plan. They obviously have it down to a science. I mean, perfect. This is a great segue for number five. If you were placed into this airport, what would your initial reaction be? A.G. or an apocalypse. This is where all the planes have to go and you and I are the only controllers left in the world. And this is how we have to do it. Oh, man. So if that's the case, my tolerance for running what would be questionable operations is way higher than most people. I feel like. I just, I don't know. In the apocalypse, and that's where it, oh, yeah, I'm crushing this every day. I got no problem. But in a normal world where this is like, you just have to try to get in the mindset. Look, I have a 10 mile cutoff to where I can't even be. They've taken that in half and not only is it immediate divergence away from, but now we're turning back through the final on an aircraft that may or may not be through the altitude of the next plane. Terrible. There is zero opportunity here to not pay attention to this. You cannot not be watching this. You're building anything that is not a, it's like, it's like you would be box wanting the trainee every single time they did this. How are you ensuring that? Well, I'm watching it. Huh. That doesn't seem like my favorite form of separation. But you can't, you're stuck because you're in this valley. This 343 is basically paralleling this ridgeline, right? You can't go any more right. In 9100, I don't know what, I guess that accomplishes some separation with that first arrival. It places them above the immediate threat to the West, I believe. I'd have to do some analysis, but it gives them a little more buffer above terrain to climb between peaks. Yeah. If I just showed up at this place, not having none of this discussion and I didn't know anything and I just was monitoring and they started doing this. I'm like, whoa, what, whoa, whoa, what are you doing? Yeah. Are you okay? The second they said line up and runway 33 line up and wait. Traffic. Traffic. 5 mile final. Opposite direction. I'm like, can you do that? That's what, that would be my question. Let's talk about that part real quick. If the cutoff to say clear for takeoff was 5 mile final for a jet, let's just say do it 120 to 130 knots over the ground. That 5 miles on a mile and a half runway gets eaten up pretty quick. You got to start moving down the runway. You're going slow. They're eating up airspace pretty quickly at that speed. By the time you rotate, that airplane is conceivably inside of a 2 mile final. So the time now we're shrinking, we're going opposite direction now, literally. So it's not going to be too long before you can climb behind them provided you can get to that 9,100 feet. What is your out if it doesn't work? If now this number two that you're trying to go in front of is too close, what's your out? How do you maneuver your way out of this safely and not kill an airplane aiming them into a mountain? Yeah, that is a really good question. You don't have a lot of time to affect altitude and you can't descend. You certainly can't descend this departure. You need to get them to the MVA, which is probably 96, maybe 10. I don't know. Oh, no, in mountainous now we're getting to... Yeah, they're on a SID that has climb requirements. So climb... 10,6 maybe? Yeah, at least. 10,6 for the MVA. Man, yeah, what is that? I don't know what the terrain and MVA looks like if they just keep going on that 343, but we're talking about tower applied visual here. How far can we extend that out realistically if these two planes are going to... We're going to get close about six miles, maybe five or six miles is where... Is that really close enough to be affecting visual separation? I don't know. That's another great question. You want the controller to see five miles away and they could see the radar screen. I think that's an important addition to this. That is important. Probably stand out their own, but the radar controller is right there. They have a very good idea of what's happening in the radar world. My first reaction up there, I'll be scared at first. Then if I saw it happen at work a few times and understood the cutoffs and the timing, I'm sure you'd get used to it pretty quick. This shouldn't... Anybody... If this is where you started your ATC life, do not introduce this to other controllers casually. No, no, no. This doesn't make sense to us until we talk about it and get through some big questions. I think we might be scaring people here. Wait, okay. The reason it's scaring us is because this is so unusual for normal places where this doesn't have to happen. Places that aren't surrounded by giant 14,000-foot mountains. We don't have giant mountains. There's a water tower over there and like some antennas, waves south of the airport that a 152 on a 95-degree day can out-climb. Okay, so we have zero need to try to do something like this, but this would be so foreign and so weird feeling. Yeah. I mean, we feel weird about running a squeeze play with a crossing runway that isn't pointed at the arrival. You're just pointing a plane at the arrival. That's the part that strikes me as the most uncomfortable. It'd be one thing, like you said, if we're perpendicular, but you're literally making me aim them right at them for at least a split second they're aimed head on. The turn doesn't seem super extreme. It's only like 15 degrees. Right. So I'm not in love with this. This would take some getting used to. Yeah. On the pilot side of this, you better know what's going on here. You better understand that this is what's happening and that it is incumbent on you to, one, make an immediate turn away from the final and that your climb rate needs to be as good as it possibly can so that you could start this left turn as soon as you possibly can. As soon as you go behind this arrival, you're set up. See, that's why this divergence, this turn can't be super far or you're too far away from final. It has to keep close. My guess is that by the time they get to where they can turn, 1,000 at 15 degrees, you're a half a mile that you've got to make up now coming back. Your speed at climb and a half a mile, this arrival is covering, that probably is a double that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So. We'll close with this. Once airborne, the crews can expect the following. You're airborne now. You just took off. Hopefully, you've read this letter before. You just dove into this. You have to have read this. Fly heading 343, vector for traffic, expect to resume the departure. When clear of the traffic, you can expect to hear a turn left heading 273, resume the lens departure. This maneuver will occur prior to the departure reaching a point three miles north of the runway. After that, approximately 9.4 miles DME off the VOR. Flight crews that do not receive a 273 heading prior to that point should query ATC. All right. So if you're trucking out and ATC fell and hit their head, you need to turn westbound or say something because you're probably aimed at something that will kill you, a mountain. Must hurt. Oh, yeah. Right. Must hurt. You have to believe that it says something on the ATIS. You must have read this procedure before coming to this airport because if I'm the pilot and you told me to go into position and gave me traffic on a five-bomb final, my reaction's going to be, wait, what? Yeah. If you hadn't read this and you got into this and didn't say something, what are you doing? You're not paying attention one way or the other. Right. If you don't know about this procedure and this doesn't surprise you or shock you a little bit, are you going to launch us or you're just telling us that this plane is going to land and then we're going to depart like I'm not sure what you want us to do here? I said I would close with that. I want to close by asking you a question. My coach, how you've worked with her for years. Yeah. She did time at this airport. Good time. Do you think that has, can you correlate having done this with the way she works traffic now? Yes. Okay. Yes. She has a much, how do I say this? Higher pain tolerance? Yes. She works traffic in the pattern much differently than most people do. She can, in a good way, in a good way. She knows how to run a squeeze place. She's very comfortable with running tight pattern work and manipulating planes into places that they need to be, how little tricks and stuff that I'm sure is born out of working at places like this and the other place that she worked. Yeah. A PFR Arizona training facility that she saw more airplanes in a week than we see probably a month. Oh, yeah. So I enjoyed watching you learn about this during the show. Yeah. This was fantastic. I really like this discussion. I haven't, she hasn't responded yet. Maybe we'll follow up with that. Yeah, in the next episode. Okay. All right. Moving on. Thank you, Louie Madelta. Feedback time. Feedback. We're going to do one and three. I don't know when we're going to do two because we're running against the clock here. I'll get number one. Okay. From Emperor Captain Alpha, Mike Greetings, noble emissaries of cooperative and efficient operations within the NAS. Greetings. I recently took one of my former instructors, current pre-solo students for a flight so we could celebrate International Women's Day and to show her some of the more practical side of flying. I planned our flight to make it include aspects of flying that most private students get little or even no exposure to, such as flight following, operations in and out of Class Charlie airports, taxing on complex airport layouts using FBO services, and of course, the popular $100 hamburger run. The first leg of the trip was from our home drone, the Teterboro imposter airport. I've been known to call it that before. My apologies to the Badger State Capitol Charlie to have breakfast at the restaurant. Upon departing our home airport, we contacted Bruce City Approach to initiate flight following and all went very uneventfully just as expected. I did make a quick lesson of how to properly order the information in flight following request as proclaimed by the Gospel of opposing basis. After breakfast, we departed Badger State Capitol and Bruce City Charlie while en route and still on with Badger City and Capitol Approach. They asked if we'd like to hand off to Bruce City or our odd request, I thought to myself. Of course we would since that's where we're going. That is a weird question. I replied in the affirmative and a few minutes later we were instructed to contact Bruce City Approach. That is weird. Upon checking in with Bruce City, I mentioned that we would like a full stop taxi back. They confirmed and told us to expect to 5R. A few minutes later, Approach called back and asked, after your taxi back will you be returning to the Teterboro imposter airport? Not catching it at first, I simply replied affirmative only after I'm keying that it hit me. How did they know where we started from? I had now been a couple of hours since we first departed. We had been on the ground for quite a while at the airport and this did not sound like at all like the same control we spoke to for flight following. So this got me to wondering, at Triad are there aircraft that fly out of saddle airports who you would talk to frequently enough that you recognize them by tail number? Even if they don't typically land at the Triad? I do find myself talking to that Bruce City quite often. However, in my aircraft, if my aircraft is so recognizable to Bruce City Treycon, should I be concerned that I've somehow become infamous in this facility? Well, I'll answer that, yes. Sure. You should be concerned. You also fly helicopters so they already know there's something going on up here? Yes. They're aware of just some slight offness. I mean, I truly doubt my soothing sultry tone on the radios that made me so memorable, but maybe? Or should I simply dismiss this as a controller who clearly has higher order psychic abilities and just be sure to watch what I say off mic knowing that they can still sense what I'm saying? I appreciate you sharing based on your perspectives and perhaps having a little fun speculating on how they have such strong memory for my aircraft. Sincerely, you're a loyal citizen in the nass, Alpha Mike. How would they know this? Have you ever looked up like a flight aware of an airplane that came in? Because surely you wouldn't recognize somebody from like. Well, you wouldn't have to do that. You could just do a full route, a flight request. For... Yeah, and that would show you. They just left. They haven't put them in the system. Okay, hold on a minute. They're saying, are you going back to this airport? Like they were in between. They were in the middle airports. Okay, so they came from airport A. They went to airport B. Yep. When they get to B approach, the B approach says expect 25R for your full stop taxi back. And then will you be returning to airport A? Remember they had breakfast in here and it was a different controller. Like there was a break. Okay, so you're saying there's a third airport? Did I miss? I think that's what happened. There's an in between airport. So they weren't... Oh, after breakfast. Hold on. Right. So... We're not paying attention. Yeah, it's possible. Um, the taxi is the first... Well, I guess I just got it in my head. Mm-hmm. That there were only two airports. So Teterboro Imposter on the first leg of the trip was from our home to Teterboro Imposter, to the Badger State Charlie to have breakfast. Okay. Upon departing our home airport, we contacted Bruce City approach to initiate flight falling on a femfly. Okay. Just try to... Just recap it for me. Just recap it. Tell me what happened. They left. They talked to an approach. Yeah. They had breakfast. On the way back, there could have been another airport in here. I'm not going to reread it. But a new controller hours later asked if they were going back to their home airport that wasn't communicated in their initial interaction with them. How did they know? Hmm. They may have seen the flight strip from before. Hmm. That could have been. They... The speculation here that they know the call sign is very possible. All right. Alpha Mike flies around enough that controllers are very good at picking up on patterns. All right. And for example, planes that fly out of the club at Taco Truck, I know a couple of those call signs. Okay. If one of those came off of one of my satellites, me saying, are you headed back to Taco Truck would not be completely totally unreasonable. I'll buy that. You know, I just... I mean, I have an estimated 6,000 hours of sitting in radar. You start to pick stuff up. Planes don't move around a ton in terms of where they live. Like yesterday, a voice that we recognize came off in a plane that is never... I have never associated that voice with that plane. All right. We said, did you get a new plane? This is a high wing. Your flight school flies exclusively Cherokees. Now there was confusion about the question we were asking, but the point is we see that stuff. We pay attention. We have a list in the tower of where people park. All right. At least we used to. Some psychopath on the mid probably threw it away. Totally out of their mind. It's possible. Okay. That's plausible then. They recognize the voice, the plane. That's good. That's a good enough answer. Yeah. I think so. I think. The voice too. Yeah. The voice. Because I recognize voices from Co-Factory. Okay. Yeah. Thank you, Mike, for confusing the both of us. Yeah. I just totally got lost in that. We're not psychic. We're not psychic. We just have good memories. Yes. You get number three. Number three from Emperor Captain Julius Sarah. Hello, R.H.N.A.G. I just want to get the, try to get the feel of this before we, before I get into it. I will pay attention to this one. First off, I just wanted to say how much, how much I've enjoyed the podcast. It has significantly improved both my IFR knowledge and my radio skills. I only discovered the show about a year ago and once I did, I decided to go all the way back to the beginning and start listening from episode one. Well, I'm sorry. My original strategy was to listen at night when I couldn't fall asleep. Unfortunately, the result was that I would fall asleep almost immediately once the podcast started playing while the player continued running all night the next morning. I had no idea where I had left off. So my organized listening plan turned into more of a random randomized shuffle through the archive. Yeah. As a side note during that time, I started having, listen, due to problems like this, you guys have exhausted our therapy resource and it is no longer available. We can't be held responsible. I started having recurring dreams, possibly nightmares about Chewbacca flying a star ship into, into an airport in North Carolina, forgetting to ask for flight following. This can't be real. And then being chased down the runway by a police car with its siren blaring while someone in the back seat played drum bits. I assume. Oh, wow. I assume that's a normal side effect of late night aviation podcast. Probably normal. Totally normal. Don't, don't worry about it. If in the next six months you have an overwhelming desire to fly helicopters, seek help. Okay. Eventually I restarted the whole process using a different podcast player during the day while driving or traveling. Since restarting in September, I'm now up to episode 200. I even listen at one X speed, although sometimes AG sound like he might naturally operate closer to 0.75 speed. That is true. I do. I have had people say on clearance delivery, pilots say after I read the clearance. They're like, Hey, I appreciate you doing that nice and slow for us. You're like, wait. That was full speed. Thank you. That was full speed. I actually felt like I was kind of going fast. Anyway, last weekend I was flying and picked up flight following from Navy grower approach north of the coffee Bravo, a Mooney keyed up approach. Mooney one, two, three request flight following Tulip airport. About five seconds later, he keyed up again approach. How do you hear five seconds later approach radio check took everything I had to key up and say patients grasshopper approach heard you, but is busy and we'll get back to you. But you didn't say that. You didn't say that. It took everything I had not to not to say it. I wish you would have. Well, let me get to what I really wanted to say. I wanted to keep this short. So AG, we'd even read this, but I guess I have failed by this point. Sorry, AG. You probably even picked even and this was an even number. I was assigned this feedback. I believe. Mm hmm. Against my will summary. I took some of the story and shortened it. Okay. Okay. All right. So in summary, parts that I haven't read. It's here experience repeated total GPS failures across all onboard and portable devices, eventually tracing it to a faulty antenna. Every time I say that word, someone gets upset. I'm trying to get better. I rather appreciate the normal pronunciation coming from AG book. Go ahead. Antenna. Mm hmm. Whose internal amplifier began oscillating and effectively jammed every GPS receiver in the aircraft. The practical takeaway is that a failed GPS antenna, sorry, can act like a local jammer and isolating the problem in flight is as simple as powering down units one at a time to identify the source. Huh. If there's anybody that's experienced with this happening in their airplane and they're not sure why their GPS is failing, this feedback came from a pilot who figured it out after a ton of trial and error and it came down to the antenna, a failing antenna causing some sort of jamming properties. So yeah, don't give up. Go ahead. Okay. Hopefully people can add this little penguin to their iceberg in case they ever need it someday. Unfortunately, my own iceberg seems to keep melting as the years go by. Thanks again for the great podcast and per captain, Juliet Leimusierra from the Wild West Airport North of the Coffee Bravo. Cool. Well, that's a good tip. Yeah. All right. You didn't miss anything. You did really good. Okay. And you have worked on- We just kind of shifted gears there. We told a story about call-ups and then just we went straight into GPS and you guys just have to understand that what you're experiencing, what is that my, you're experiencing the climate change inside of my head that is rapidly melting my iceberg in real time. That's just what you're seeing every day. Great. We get to do another episode right after this. So you're going to be on fire. It'll be even better. Yeah. All right. We do our best to respond to support feedback and let you know when you'll be on an upcoming show. Thank you, Juliet Sierra for awesome feedback and for everybody who contributed to the show, for supporting the show. Agy, anything before the chat and the break? Yes. Thank you to the supporters who keep the show going, who keep it ad-free and without whom we would not be doing the show anymore. I don't think. Excellent. Just, you know, don't say that enough probably. Coming out episode 430 of opposing basis air traffic talk Romeo hotel and Alpha golf. Goodbye everyone. Drop. Opposing basis is a listener supported ad free weekly podcast. The views expressed on the show do not reflect the opinions or official positions of the FAA or Penguin Airlines. Episodes are for entertainment purposes only and are not intended to replace flight instruction to get on time access, bonus content and full archive access. Join the crew at opposingbasis.supercast.com.