What's up y'all? I'm Skyler Diggins, 7-time WNBA All-Star, Olympic gold medalist, and mom. And I'm Cassidy Hubbard, host and reporter for nearly 20 years, covering the biggest names and stories in sports and mom. And this is and mom, a community for athletes, game changers, and moms of all kinds. Dropping May 14th. Tap in with us. Do you ever wonder what's in your lotion? If you look at the back of the bottle, it could contain more than a dozen ingredients. And they may not all be regulated. The threshold is so high that only 11 cosmetic ingredients have been restricted by the FDA since 1938. This week on Explain It To Me, the chemicals lurking in your cosmetics. New episodes Sundays wherever you get your podcasts. Tell me about the decision to go mountain climbing on January 18th, 2025. Who was idea with Zad? That depends on who you ask. How experienced were they at mountaineering and climbing? That also depends on who you ask. In late 2024, Thomas Planberger and Kirsten Gertner had been dating for almost a year. Thomas was 36 years old and a professional chef in Salzburg, Austria. Kirsten Gertner was 33 and worked in an office in the same city. They'd met on Tinder and it started to talk about moving in. In January, they were going to go on a trip together. Thomas and Kirsten were planning on summoning Cross-Clockner, which is the largest mountain in the Austrian Alps. New York Times reporter Jonathan Wolfe. And they decided to take the most dangerous route, which includes this really rocky arched climb to the summit. A climbing tour company warns people that to take this route, you need to be in very good physical shape and have some rock climbing experience. An experienced mountaineer told a BBC reporter that in bad conditions, trying to summit Cross-Clockner can feel like fighting to survive. Cross-Clockner's peak is over 12,000 feet above sea level, more than 7,000 people climb it every year. On January 18, 2025, Kirsten and Thomas began their climb of Cross-Clockner at 6.45am. They had backpacks with ropes, emergency blankets, a tent and headlamps. Kirsten had brought a split snowboard. She planned to use it to descend the mountain after they reached the summit. They were planning on it being an overnight hike, so it was going to be a very long day. Some mountain guides break the trip up into two days, a day to reach the beginning of the ridge, and then a second day to get to the peak. Around 1.30pm, Thomas and Kirsten arrived at a resting point known as the Breakfast Spot, about 11,600 feet above sea level. And this was kind of like a point of no return before the summit. A lot of times people, if they don't get there at a certain time, they might end up turning back. But it's definitely a moment where you sort of rest for a moment and check in and see if you're going to continue. And Mountaineers I spoke to said that's definitely a point where a lot of times they make their clients rest, whether or not they want to. Thomas Planberger said at this point he and Kirsten didn't feel tired, so they kept going. It seems like there were some hikers who saw them on the mountain, including one hiker who said that he hiked with them for a little while, a little stretch. And he said that Thomas was, you know, sort of looking after Kirsten, checking in on her. How did people say that Kirsten was doing at that point? They said that she looked like she was doing fine. She was struggling and seemed like a pretty normal hike to them. At nightfall, at around 5pm in winter, Thomas and Kirsten were still climbing. About an hour and a half later, their headlamps were visible on a webcam that livestreams a view of the top of the mountain. We can see their light sort of slowly making its way up the mountain, and it's the only light that's on the mountain. So, you know, it's possible there's other people not using lights, but it seems like they were the only two people on the mountain. Mountaineers that I've spoken to said that that's actually not out of the ordinary. Like, it's definitely riskier. You'd need to be of a certain level, but people do climb this mountain at night. And it seems like they were just a little bit more slow going, and they were sort of stuck on the mountain, and the weather turned quite bad. There was a weather pattern that the locals called the phone winds, which can really bring like really intense cold, blustery winds to the peaks of the Alps. And from Mountaineers that I spoke to, they were actually aware that this was happening on this day, so they said that they basically chose not to summit the mountain. At around 8pm, they stopped for an hour and a half. Their climbing rope had gotten stuck, and then Kirsten hurt her hand. At 10.30pm, an Alpine police helicopter went to check on Thomas and Kirsten. The helicopter passed them about six times. When they did not signal for help, the helicopter left. Around this time, Alpine police also tried to call Thomas. His phone number was listed on his climbing permit, but he never answered the phone. Later, Thomas Plamburger said he had not realized his phone was ringing because it had been set to vibrate. But Thomas says that soon after the helicopter left, Kirsten, quote, suddenly showed increasing signs of exhaustion. About a half hour past midnight, Thomas called the police. And there's real debate about what happened during this phone call. Thomas says that he was convinced that police were aware that a rescue was needed and that he wanted them to send a helicopter. The police, on the other hand, said that Thomas in this moment told him that everything was fine and so they did not start a rescue procedure. And then, for three hours, no one heard from him. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. Alpine police attempted to get back in touch with Thomas Plamburger by phone and then by texting him on WhatsApp. One officer wrote, do you need help now or not? But they didn't get a response. In his WhatsApp, it appears it has like the two check marks or whatever it was delivered. We don't know if it was red, but it was delivered. When he had spoken to the police earlier, Thomas says they told him the best thing was for them to keep moving. Because if you stop in a very cold environment, there's a chance that it'll be worse for you. Basically, you'll start to lose energy. You'll start to lose warmth in your body. So he was in the impression that he needed to keep moving. And so that's what he told Kirsten after that phone call that they needed to keep moving. That night, the temperature dropped to 17 degrees Fahrenheit, but felt even colder with the wind show. The wind would have been very strong at this point because when you get towards the peak of Cross Glockner, it's really exposed. So a lot of the winds that might have been blocked off in other areas as you're climbing the mountain, that's no longer the case. So you're just completely exposed and it would have been very cold at this point. They made it to just below the summit where they stopped for about an hour and a half. Thomas says that at that point, Kirsten was too exhausted to move anymore. He said at around 2 a.m., he and Kirsten agreed that he should try to get down the mountain by himself to try and get help at one of the refuge huts. At around 2 a.m., he and Kirsten agreed that he should try to get down the mountain by himself to try and get help at one of the refuge huts. At around 3.30 a.m., Thomas Plamburger called the police again and told them that he was on his way down and that he had left Kirsten behind. He asked if they could send a helicopter for her, but the wind had been picking up speed all night. By then it was blowing up to 45 miles per hour and they told him it was too dangerous for a helicopter to fly. Thomas told police where he had left Kirsten. The next day, a rescue crew headed up the mountain. Around 10 a.m., they found Kirsten. She was dead from hypothermia. Kirsten's family held her funeral nine days later. The notice read, Our lives are in God's hands. If it is His will, then do not grieve for me, but remember me with love. Kirsten's mother later said that she had to lose her life precisely where she felt so alive is almost incomprehensible to me. Thomas wrote on Instagram, It hurts so incredibly much. And then, almost a year later, Austrian prosecutors filed charges against Thomas Plamburger for grossly negligent homicide. Prosecutors said that Thomas was the more experienced climber and should have been a guarantor of Kirsten's life. It's called guarantonstellung. Verena Morschette is a professor of criminal law at the University of Innsbruck in Austria. A guarantor is somebody that is responsible for another person. And where you mostly need this term is when you have a crime committed by omission. Like, it's easy to say if I commit a crime by action, like I do something, I hit somebody, then it's clear I am the one responsible for hitting somebody. But if a crime is an omission, it's failing to act with due diligence. In Austria, this charge is typically used in things like a car accident or maybe a parent who is not giving the correct care to their child. Or in the mountaineering context, it can be used in certain situations where you hire a person, like a guide that is responsible for you to take care of you and to look after you. But you can also be a guarantor as a leader out of courtesy where you don't have a contract. You don't get paid for it's non-commercial, but it's just out of courtesy. And as such, you're a guarantor and also responsible for outcomes or let's say negative things happening to the individual that you're responsible for. How big of a deal was it in Austria? Was everyone talking about it? Yes, a lot of people were talking about it. I mean, where I am, we have all these mountains, where we have a lot of alpine tours. A lot of people come and pay guides to walk up the mountains basically with these keys. And there's a lot of people that do tours together, like friends that go up the mountains together. So I think for that reason, many people talked about the case and said, wow, look at this case. Is this happening? What's going to come out? I think we actually haven't had a criminal case like this before. We'll be right back. To listen without ads, join Criminal Plus. Support for criminal comes from Quince. If you're looking for high quality, long lasting pieces that you can wear year after year, you might want to consider Quince. Quince has all the wardrobe staples for spring, like 100% European linen shorts and shirts from $34. They're lightweight, breathable and comfortable, but still help you look put together. At Quince, you can find items made from clean materials, like their soft 100% Pima cotton tees. And everything is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. This spring, I'm looking forward to wearing your organic cotton cable cardigan. It's soft and comfortable, and on days where the weather is unpredictable, it's easy to throw on over a t-shirt. Refresh your spring wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.com slash criminal for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, now available in Canada too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash criminal to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash criminal. Support for criminal comes from Shopify. If you want to start your own business, you're probably asking yourself questions that start with what if. But no business owner ever figured it all out at once. And those questions are an important step towards launching your business. Shopify can help get you there. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world. They're behind everything from household names to brands just getting started. You can make a beautiful online store by choosing from Shopify's hundreds of ready to use templates. They can help you write product descriptions, page headlines, and improve your product photography. You can connect with customers through an easy to run marketing campaign built through Shopify. And if you just need some advice, they offer award-winning 24-7 customer support. It's time to turn those what ifs into a thriving business with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash criminal. Go to Shopify.com slash criminal. That's Shopify.com slash criminal. Over the past two decades, 29 people have died on Grossglockner. But Thomas Plamburger's case was the first time the Austrian government had filed criminal charges for a death. Austrian prosecutors said that Thomas Plamburger had made nine mistakes that led to Kirsten Gertner's death. The first error they listed was that Kirsten had less experience than Thomas at mountain climbing at that high of an altitude in the winter. If I was in that position of taking a young woman up to do 12,500 foot, I would make sure that both of us were properly equipped, properly experienced. John Leitch is a survival psychologist. He was a mountaineer and emergency mountain rescuer for years. She was going to a height level she'd never been to before in winter at night. Now, Thomas, he'd been up at that altitude before and he'd been on that sort of roof before. So really, he should have stepped in at the beginning and made sure that she was properly equipped, properly kitted out. And if they were going to go and do that at that altitude in winter at night, then I would have basically insisted that she does it in daytime beforehand, quite some time beforehand, and build up experience for that on that terrain in that area under those conditions and then build it up gradually. Once you know and you've got a feel for the route, you know where the top is, you can do all that, then you go for the big one and do it in winter at night. So there's a number of failures here before she's even set off. A mountain guide on Gross Glockner told reporter Jonathan Wolfe that he's seen more clients than he used to trying to summit challenging mountains without getting used to the altitude or continuing even when the weather is bad. The prosecution also said that Thomas and Kirsten left two hours too late. Thomas had not considered how short the day would be in winter and how early night would come. Prosecutors said Thomas also should have noticed that Kirsten wasn't wearing hiking boots. Instead, she was wearing soft snowboarding boots. Other errors include Thomas not turning back when the weather got worse. Thomas not signaling for help before it got dark, and Thomas being unreachable after he had called police. Finally, they said that when Thomas left Kirsten at the summit, he had not moved Kirsten to an area protected from the wind or used any of their emergency equipment to keep her warm. They had a small tent and emergency blankets that you can use if you get into trouble, and they said that she wasn't in the tent, the blankets weren't used. And there'd been more than one person I'd been involved in with Mountain Rescue where we've recovered somebody who's got a backpack full of survival kit, but he's not used any of it. And they say, what's the survival kit? I'll stick it in my bag and they go off. But they've never used it, never even opened it at times. John Leach says he's never left someone behind to get help. He says it's part of an unspoken code. The International Climbing and Mountaineering Federation says that climbers should be prepared to make compromises in order to balance the needs and abilities of all the group. Emergency dispatch operators often advise climbers to stay with their companions instead of leaving for help. But there aren't any official rules for Mountaineers about what to do in emergencies. And, you know, Mountaineers that I spoke to said it's just never an option to leave someone by themselves on the mountain. And then at the same time, like there was rescue workers that I've spoken to are also Mountaineers, and they were saying it was hard to put yourself in the mindset of a person who's undergoing an emergency in cold weather where you're under stress and it's dark. And they were just sort of unwilling to pass judgment on that, saying that, you know, we can look back at things and make judgments, but in that moment it can be really difficult to understand what the best course of action is. John Leach says at high altitudes, people have a harder time making decisions. You can get cognitive impairment occurring around about 9,000, 10,000 feet, particularly in the skills of decision making and logical reasoning. If things are not going well, then your ability to focus gets diminished as well. So you find yourself being distracted and you're not concentrating. And that's when mistakes happen, when people start to get clumsy and they're switching off from the major things, which afterwards, you know, they're rescued successfully, they look back and I've heard so many people say this, so many survivors, they say, you know, why did I do that? How far you can think ahead? It's severely diminished under pressure and you get tied in more and more to the present moment. Because if you can't see your future, then you're not going to respond to that future. But true panic is very, very rare. And usually if it does occur, it tends to occur in enclosed spaces. The most common trigger is if you're in a place, you know that your life is under threat. You know there's a chance of escape, but you also appreciate that chance of escape is diminishing. So for example, if you're in an ocean liner that's sinking, you very rarely get panic outside. True panic, where you do get its confusion and bewilderment and people running around flapping, you know, like a bunch of penguins on steroids, all flap and no flight. Thomas Plamburger's trial was scheduled for February 26th at a courthouse in Innsbruck. There would be no jury. The verdict would be decided by a judge named Norbert Hofer, who also worked part-time as an emergency mountain rescuer. He has a special competence, so all the mountain cases go to this judge, Verena Morschatz. Like we have judges that are assigned specific cases, like let's say corruption cases, what not. And he's assigned all these alpine cases because of his knowledge, because of him understanding the difficulties that one faces. Verena says that prosecutors would need to prove to the judge that Thomas was the more experienced climber and had been the one in charge. The judge tried to find out if the defendant was in reality more experienced. So he talked about what are the climbing techniques that she used, what are the climbing techniques that he uses. Like he went into professional discussions with him to figure out what did he know about alpine cases. But Thomas testified that he had no alpine training whatsoever. He said he wasn't a professional mountaineer. He had taught himself through trial and error and watching videos online. But he had climbed Grossglockner before. He testified that he and Kirsten had planned this trip together, that Kirsten loved mountain climbing and was physically very fit. They had climbed in other parts of the Alps together. But while they were planning their trip, Kirsten wrote in an email to Thomas, I completely lack experience when it comes to winter tours. The prosecution called a police officer to testify. The officer said that Thomas had told him that he had been the main planner for this trip. Another officer testified about taking Thomas' call just after midnight. He said that at that point it wouldn't have been difficult to start a rescue operation, but it wasn't clear that they needed one. He said that, quote, that was definitely not an emergency call. Thomas had put his phone on silent after speaking with the police. When Thomas was asked why he had put his phone on silent, he said he was trying to save the battery because he hadn't brought a power bank. Thomas said the change in the weather had taken them by surprise. He said that lower down on the mountain the wind had been non-existent, but had gotten stronger the higher they went. Thomas also spoke about his last conversation with Kirsten. So he said that during their tour, because of the weather, it was sometimes hard to understand each other at certain moments. But he said that when he left her that she was in relatively good condition and she was clear, she was responsive. She was exhausted, but she was clear and she told him to go and that it was a mutual decision. Thomas said he tied Kirsten to a rock before he left. He said he didn't have an explanation for why he had not sheltered her more. He testified that the last thing she said to him was, go on your own and save your own life. We'll be right back. Support for criminal comes from Bombas. 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At Thomas Planberger's trial, the prosecution presented photos of how Kirsten Gertner had been found by rescuers. Thomas had said he had left her near the summit, but it appeared that she had fallen. She was about 150 feet from the summit and she was, quote, hanging from a rock face, her feet dangling. A doctor testified that Kirsten had died from hypothermia. He had also found that she had pneumonia at the time of her death, but it was not clear if that had contributed to her exhaustion. The prosecution also presented data from Kirsten and Thomas' smartwatches that they'd been wearing on the mountain. They said it showed a clear decline before the police helicopter went to check with the police. Kirsten Gertner's mother, Gertraud, also spoke at the trial. She said she didn't blame Thomas for Kirsten's death. She told a German newspaper that she was angry that Kirsten is being portrayed as a stupid little thing. Her mother said that Kirsten loved the outdoors and that she had plenty of climbing experience, on a mountain of snow, on a mountain of snow, on a mountain of snow, on a mountain of snow. She said that she had no experience, on her own and with Thomas. And she was very intent on making sure that Kirsten wasn't seen as a weak individual who had no agency in this. And she really defended her daughter in terms of her strength and she seemed like she didn't want her to come off as a weak person. In the reporter, many people who blame Kirsten's boyfriend have never been in such a situation. I hope they never find themselves in such an exceptional situation, because nobody knows how they'll react then. It's easy to be a hero in the comfort of your own home. Near the end of the day, the prosecution called a woman named Andrea Bergenner to the stand. An ex-girlfriend of Thomas's and they had dated a few years prior. Andrea Bergenner told the judge that Thomas had also taken her on a trip to Grossglockner a few years earlier. You know, the way she described it, she said that they were descending the mountain at night. And then she said that, you know, during the climb they had been arguing and that she wanted to take a shortcut down the mountain. She said that she was exhausted and her headlamp had just run out of battery. And then she lost sight of Thomas. And that's the moment that Thomas apparently left her. She screamed, she felt dizzy, and you know, at that moment she realized she was completely alone. Then she said from then on they didn't go on any hikes together. The trial lasted 14 hours. At the end of the day, at around 11 p.m., the judge issued his verdict. He said Thomas was guilty. He said that he had, quote, galaxies more experienced than Kirsten, but that he did not see Thomas as a murderer. The judge said, you are an excellent alpinist, but someone who finds it very difficult to make the switch between your own limits and those of others. You know, he acknowledged that Thomas lost someone very close to him in his life, but then he also was pretty firm about condemning him for certain actions he took during the climb. He said that, you know, Kirsten really put herself in his care and really trusted him to bring her to the summit and back down safely. And in the end, he said very bluntly, you know, if you would have acted differently, he strongly assumed that Kirsten would still be alive. Do you think this verdict will have an effect on mountaineering regulations? I think in practice it will have an effect insofar as I think people will be more conscious about if you go with another person or if you go as a group and do these activities and one of you is better than the others. And one of you resumes the role of, yes, I'm planning the trip, I'm going to check out the route we're going, I'm going to decide when we're going to start, and I'm going to be the one that during the trip figures out how sensible is it to move on or how sensible is it to abort friends that do a tour. I think they haven't been aware of the fact that they could be responsible. And that I think will change now because people realize if I as the expert on the mountain take my friend, that is no expert, and ask him, let's go do this trip that I can be criminally responsible. Thomas Plamburger was sentenced to five months in prison and a fine of 9,600 euros, about $11,000. He told the judge, I am infinitely sorry for what happened. He's filed an appeal of the verdict. Here's this woman that I've been dating a brief time. I invite her on this trip. It's supposed to be luxurious and fun. And now we're in this situation, contemplating terrible things. On our other show, This Is Love, another story of a couple on a mountain. It's just a wall. There's no ledges. You're a trout. So many things would have to go wrong for nobody to notice we're gone. So I just had confidence that there's no way this many things can go wrong in a row. You can listen to that story right now on This Is Love. Criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Robertson, Jackie Sajiko, Lily Clark, and Lena Sillison. This episode was fact checked by Katie Cedarborg. Our show is mixed and engineered by Veronica Simonetti. Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at ThisIsCriminal.com. And you can sign up for our newsletter at ThisIsCriminal.com slash newsletter. We hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program, Criminal Plus. You can listen to Criminal This Is Love in Phoebe Reed's A Mystery without any ads. Plus you'll get bonus episodes. These are special episodes with me and Criminal co-creator Lauren Spore talking about everything from how we make our episodes to the crime stories that caught our attention that week to things we've been enjoying lately. To learn more, go to patreon.com slash criminal. We're on Facebook at This Is Criminal and Instagram and TikTok at Criminal underscore podcast. We're also on YouTube at youtube.com slash criminal podcast. Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more great shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.
