What Every Woman Should Know About Menopause with Dr. Sharon Malone

This could have been an uncomfortable discussion for a guy. It absolutely was not. It was the opposite. I felt safe and informed and educated. Did you feel safe? That's what sees this. Oh, let's hold his hand. So he felt safe. You see, this is. You were safe too. This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Alloy Women's Health. Hey, you. Hi, Craig. It's Michelle Obama in her favorite's place. And Martha's Vineyard in this beautiful barn in Chilmark on the Vineyard. I like Chilmark. Yeah, it's. It's a perfect name for it. Chil. It's Chil, Mark. It is. I'm sure there's a deeper meaning to the name of the town. But yeah, one of my happy places. How you been? I've been good. Do you know what I did this trip? I'm so proud of myself. What'd you do? I got some pictures of myself taken all around the Vineyard. Oh, fancy pants. Down by the port. In Edgar town? In Edgar town and where you could see the lighthouse. By Harborview? By the Harborview home. Yeah, yeah. And you know how I booked it? How? On Airbnb. Oh, OK. You can book services and experiences. Oh, wait, wait, wait. You booked a photo shoot? I booked my own photo shoot. Oh, wow. Yeah, well, I didn't book it. You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My secretary. So that's a part of the special amenities, the new approach to Airbnb, the experience. You can get different kinds of services. You can get a chef. You can get a tour guide. And you can get a photographer. So I got a photographer. Well, that's very cool. I know that. I'll send you the shots. I know this generation, which likes to photograph themselves everywhere, their food, that's a great idea. So did you I can't wait to see the photos. We got to post them up on IMO. I'm going to send them to you. I'm going to send them to you. We're going to have them on. We're going to have them on social media. Yeah. Were you cute? Of course I was cute. All right. Well, wonderful. Wonderful. A little birdie, as dad would say, a little birdie told me, you have another book coming out. How come I didn't know about this? I do. You did know. You were probably more paying attention. That could be true. But we announced in the summer that my third book is coming out. And I'm really excited about this book because it's called The Look. And it's all about my fashion evolution, something that I never talked about as First Lady because I didn't want to be limited to what I looked like or what I wore. But that was definitely an important part of my journey. So the book is structured like a coffee table book. Oh, yeah. But it's beautiful photos, but a lot of wonderful essays. The forward is written by Farah Griffin, who is a professor of sociology, the dean of everything at Columbia. I co-wrote it with Meredith Koop, who's my stylist. Yes, I know Meredith. And we also have her story in there. We have my whole what I call my tri-fectus story. Makeup hair, all the team that worked on those. You hear from them. You hear about the journey behind all that went into waking up every morning and being the First Lady. And so it's coming out in November. And we are going to have a special IMO podcast on The Look, a limited IMO series that will go deep into some of those stories. Wow. So the secrets will be out. The secrets will be out. And it's fun. It's beautiful. It's insightful because it's not just about fashion. It's about how we show up in the world, what it takes, how we're the lens with which we, oftentimes as women, are struggling to break free of as we're doing substantive things in the world. Talks about hair, the black girl hair experience, all of that. All the things that I never talked about. I do it in this book. And we will be doing it on the podcast. So so our listeners know you can pre-order The Look. It is available wherever you get books. I can't wait. Our first little teaser. Yes. Something. But we got some more teasers. Yes. Because we our guest today is the first returning guest that we've had here on IMO. She was such a hit all across the land. And people had so many health questions. We thought we'd bring her back. Yes. We are talking about Dr. Sharon Malone. Craig, you can run down her bio. Yeah. Yeah. Well, of course, Dr. Malone is a nationally recognized OB-GYN with over 30 years of experience and now a New York Times bestseller. Yes, indeed. Her book, Grown Woman Talk, and she has also been a longtime advocate for practical information on women's health and aging. She is now also the host of her own podcast from higher ground, The Second Opinion. Please welcome our dear friend, Sharon Malone. Some of the matter expert extraordinaire. Welcome back to the IMO table. And you get in there. Back by popular demand. I can get in there. As they say, I mean, folks just love you on the first episode that you were here because you are fabulous. You are killing it on the book front. But it's not just the information in the book. It's the information provider. Sharon, I think everybody here knows that you have been one of my best friends, one of the happy places in my life for a long, long time. And I just want to take some time for people to really get to know Sharon, not Dr. Malone, the Sharon that I know. Because one of the reasons I think your book has been so popular is that it shows your voice through and through. You are not just a substantive expert in the field, but you are funny as all get out. Your music taste is sublime. And your voice just rings true. Were you always a comedian? I'm a survivor. Let me just say, when you're the youngest of eight children, you have to learn how to bob and weave. You can't beat anybody. So you better figure out a way to disarm them. And you're the youngest by a long way. I'm the youngest by a lot. You were the oops baby as equals. And now those are your words. That is correct because I have to own that. But the age band between the oldest and the youngest in my family is 23 years. So my oldest was married when I was born. Got it. And then there's seven years between me and the next sibling. So I had my way with no one. So you just learn how to disarm people, perhaps with a little humor so they won't beat you up. Because that's the key in life is just when you're growing up, you just don't want to get beat up. Exactly. Exactly. And back in the day when I was growing up, they really would beat you up. It wasn't like they would just drink. Yeah, back in the day, folks still fought. Yes, they did. I remember you were telling me about your early school years and how you were, you told me the story about how you were always the smart kid and you would do everybody else's homework. Tell me about that. See, it's a Bible skill. I'm telling you, not only was I the youngest in my family, but I used to be a skinny little girl. So again, I couldn't control anybody at home and I couldn't control anybody at school either. So I'd be sitting there and it's like sharing and I'd say, oh yes, you'd like to see my homework? No problem. I'll give you the math homework, do that. But you've, you know, hey, you got to do what you got to do, right? I didn't get beat up. So both of you all have kept this really tight circle of friends, not just here on Martha's Vineyard, but throughout your lives. And can you talk a little bit about what community has meant to you and how it's helped you over the years in your practice? Community is everything. And you know, I also had the unfortunate experience of losing my mother when I was 12 years old. So I moved a lot. Okay. You know, so when my mother died, I moved to Atlanta and I was, you know, a new family living with my older sister. I went to a new school in a new state and you have to figure, you have to find it because I wasn't, I never moved with my family. You know, it was always just me and I lived in Atlanta for two years and I lived in Dallas for a year. Another year I came back to Mobile and every place I went to just to combat the loneliness that you feel and particularly loneliness in the face of loss. You know, I found people and I found people at school or people at church that could really help fill up some of that empty space that I had. Yeah. Yeah. How did you become such a survivor? I mean, where do you think you got that from? Because you lost your mother young, your father was much, he was an older parent. By a lot. You were kind of like an only child. I was like an only child. I was, I say I was a free range child because when you live with siblings, even though they're older than you, that's not the relationship that we had had. This is, you know, my sister, you know, and the happiest thing you could say when someone would tell you, you're not my mother. You're not my father. And you whip that out a lot. I would whip that occasionally. Yeah. I was kind of a pain. But I really, I don't know where it comes from, but I know, I do know this, that sense of resilience and the sense of feeling as if I may be down, but I'm not out. I think I got that from my mother because, you know, as difficult as things were for me, my mother also lost her mother when she was only 14. And she was the one who was really in charge of taking care of her younger siblings. So you know, relatively speaking, you know, my life was way easier than her life, even though they both were difficult in, you know, in different ways. But my mom was really pretty an amazing woman. And I'm glad that at least I got to know her for 12 years. And you know, and some people don't get that. And I, she was amazing and strong and smart. But here's the thing, smart people, but they were smart at the wrong time. Yeah. You know what I mean? They didn't have the opportunity to show how smart they were. But you know, I saw it, I still feel it. And I still, you know, every time I think of her and even my older sister, I still hear her voice in my head and that's, she's been gone over 50 years. Yeah. Yeah. At what age did you say, all right, I think I want to be a doctor. Did that not come till later on? Because I think all of us wanted to be a doctor at some point. We just didn't have the brain power. We didn't have the affordability to stick it out. We learned early on, it's like, ooh, math. There's math and being a doctor. Well, count me out. Well, you know, you know what's funny is that the thought occurred to me when I was probably in third grade. My third grade was the first time that I had ever heard anybody's parent who was a doctor. You know, my parents were working class people and as were most of the people in our neighborhood. And you grew up in Alabama. Mobile. Mobile. Segregated, Mobile, Alabama. But I didn't really know professional people. And so, and but the other thing that I talk about a lot in my book is the fact that I didn't grow up having any experience of even interacting with doctors. You know, I was taken care of by Dr. Mom. You know, and my mom knew growing up where she did in the rural South, she knew a lot of remedies, home remedies. And she, I told you, she was really smart about most things. But there was a point at which, you know, the, your skill set, you know, is exceeded. And that is unfortunately why my mother lost her life. But I say that to say, I was like, wow, there's a black kid in my class and his dad is a doctor. And it's about knowing, you know, just see what you can see. That was the biggest thing I could think of to be was a doctor. And that idea got in my head. And you know, when you're a smart kid and you can do math and science, you kind of, it just kind of, it got a life of its own. Oh, Sharon's going to be a doctor. Sharon's going to be a doctor. You know, here I am. Did you feel like you had the same challenges that girls today have being taken seriously in math and science? Or did you feel like there are a lot of girls who just don't go into the field because they don't think they have math brains or they're the only ones in the advanced math class? What was that like for you as a young black girl growing up in Mobile being a STEM kid, essentially? You know what's funny is I think that, you know, everything leads to something else. And being the youngest of eight kids and growing up in the deep south in segregation, I started first grade in 1965. My sister had just graduated from the University of Alabama. She had integrated the University of Alabama in 1963. So everyone in my family for generations and generations, no one had ever been to an integrated school until Vivian integrated the University of Alabama. But she was 20 years old. There was a Catholic school that was across the street from my house. I could throw a rock and hit the playground. And that school had always been white. And in 1965, I think my mother felt emboldened. So she was like, well, Vivian can go to the University of Alabama. You can go to school across the street. So I went to that Catholic school for two years and there was a nun there. Her name was Sister Miriam Regina. And bless her heart, she let me be smart. You know, even though I was only one of two little black kids in class, she affirmed the fact that I was smart. She would say, you know, Sharon, you take the reading group and go in the back, that kind of thing. And so from the very beginning, I never had that feeling that someone was smarter than me. You know, I'm in a class full of white kids. And I'm like, I'm smart kid here. But I didn't have that gender thing either because even when I went back to segregated schools, there were boys that were girls and everybody was kind of on your own. If you were the smart kid, you were the smart kid. You didn't have to, you know, hide your light. And you really had to love what you do, not just because you're good at it, but I don't know that a lot of people know that you, in the midst of becoming a doctor, being a doctor, during your own practice, you also had three little kids and a husband, our former Attorney General Eric Holder, who had, as one of the things that bonded us, he had a career that just took you to places that you might not have wanted to go, but there you have it. And I want people to, you know, just talk about what it was like for you with three, you know, back to back children and maintaining a thriving practice and getting to be a doctor. This segment is brought to you by Alloy Women's Health. At Alloy, everything starts with the science. We're on a mission to make evidence-based menopause care accessible, starting with real doctors who specialize in perimenopause and menopause. You know, I am the Chief Medical Advisor at Alloy Women's Health, and I feel like we're having a full circle moment here because it all started with you. Almost exactly five years ago to the day, you and I did a little podcast on menopause. You sure did. And believe it or not, that podcast led to the founders of Alloy and Fallen Water and Monica Mellonauer, who is in Rotterdam. They listened to that podcast, heard me and said, wow, we need that woman to be part of Alloy, but it all started with you. And I think that says a lot about the credibility that you have because they figure if she's good enough for Michelle Obama, she must be OK for our company. And I've never looked back since. What wisdom have you gained through your health journey that you wish more women would speak openly about? Sharon, we talk about this all the time. I just want women to own their bodies. I mean, I want us to be more aware of how we feel physically. So many women are taught to ignore our bodies, you know, not to sweat, not to overexert ourselves. But what I've learned over the years is that knowing my body and understanding my healthy base line, knowing what my body is supposed to feel like when everything works, helps me know when something's going wrong. So I don't just exercise and eat, right, and get sleep because I want to look good. I also want to know in my body what health feels like. So I always encourage women to understand that how they feel physically is as important as they look. You know, I always tell my patients that because honestly, no one knows how you feel but you. And being able to communicate that effectively is everything. Join the 95 percent of women who tried alloy and saw relief in the first two weeks. Head to myalloy.com and tell them all about your symptoms and you'll get a fully customized treatment plan. And you'll get $25 off your first order today. When you use code IMO25, head to myalloy.com and enter the code IMO25 to get $25 off your first order. Well, you know, I am not going to lie. It was really hard. And when I look back on that now and I say to myself, wait a minute, at some point in my life I had a newborn, a two-year-old, and a four-year-old and my husband was doing his thing, you know. You did something. You know, but I knew that. And it was just, it's such a blur. You know, and that's why Michelle and I could always relate because I was like, I was mad through all of the 1990s. You know, I didn't come out of the other side of it. I'm like, wait a minute, oh y'all can you be left alone? Okay, that's when I was like, but it was, it's a lot. So you were mad though. Oh my God, you kidding me? Because this would be, you know, my husband would say, okay, I'm on my way home. I said, okay. And then hours later, children are in bed and then he'd let the garage door up. I'm like an eight-year-old, dad is home and I wake him up. Oh, ouch. But you know what, but see, it's all relative. It's all relative. And I always had to say to myself, I was like, okay, Sharon, get a hold, get a grip. I had a lot more resources than my mother had. By the time my mother was my age, I think she had seven children. I only had three. So I was like, you know, say, I should be able to manage this. I should be able to manage that. And she didn't even have disposable diapers. So surely I could. But you were on call too. I was. I mean, this is because you were delivering babies and with babies. And it had to be up for 24, 48 hour shifts. You know what, you know what that led to? So when I've got all these little children and I have two girls and I have a boy and the day before my 40th birthday, that was the day of the big chop. Okay. One day I had a ponytail. I went to work that morning and I had a ponytail. I had a perm and strong, straight hair and it was all back in a ponytail. I have to work. I went to the hairdresser and I came home and I looked like this. And like, I can't deal with one extra hair. I can't do it. And honestly, I think, I think my husband thought I had had a nervous breakdown between eight a.m. and six when I got home. And he was like, honey, are you okay? I said, yeah, I'm good. I'm good. Best thing I've ever done. I have not grown it back one time since and that was 25 years ago. Wow. Yeah. You gotta do what you gotta do. You gotta do what you gotta do. This is why we are friends. Yeah. Because we spend all our time talking about girl, how we getting through this. Exactly. Exactly. But the way you get through it is really with community, with your friends. Because on those many times when, you know, my husband couldn't get home or I had to go somewhere, sometimes you just call up your friends and say, girl, I gotta run here. Can you come over here and sit with the kids for a while? That is how I think that even through the most difficult times, you know, we made it through because I had this really wonderful community of girlfriends. I had them then. I have, and you've met a lot of them. Yeah. They're still around to this day. So that's the beauty. We've met each other's friends. I mean, that's how the friendship circle works, at least with us. I know with a lot of women friend groups, I mean, our friends have become friends with one another. You know, Deanie and Bonnie and your other Michelle, your other Michelle and, you know, all those characters play, you know, they live vividly in my head because they've been such an important part of your life. That's exactly right. And we know each other's stories, you know, and it's nice to see those characters come to life because, you know, we talk about our friends all the time. So, you know, that's the, I think that's the really wonderful part about being of womanhood is that we do sort of naturally sort of create communities. We have to. We have to. Yeah. And we started, you know, the story goes, we talked about this when you first came, your first visit to IMO. But one of our bonding experiences were these boot camps that I would hold at Camp David for my old friends and new friends. We did about three times a year. You know, a weekend, we'd go to Camp David, we'd have our trainer there, we'd have all the Marines there, and it was my version of wellness, although I did a little, I was a little too, too harsh about it. But you know what, let me just say this about your sister. Okay. She's always ahead of the curve. So now everybody's got a wellness retreat and a wellness weekend. We were doing this 17 years ago, you know, before it was a thing. So that's why I said, what she said. Oh, I thought you were going to say that she was a little bit competitive and that's why she's sweet. Sweet, sweet, sweet. We know that. We know that. Well, we go on the walks and like, I'm going to just stay back here with the slow group. Bike ride, she's got to be in the front. That's all right. I'm good. See, I'm secure about that. I'm with you. I'm with you. That's Sharon. Sharon says no to a lot of stuff. She's like, you know what, I'm going to go on a third of that walk and then I'll see you back at the bar, you know? You know what, I'd like to say that I am personally responsible for reinstituting a wine, a little wine hour at the end because before Sharon was it was dry. It was dry. And then for the third time, people were like, I don't know if I'm coming if we can't drink at all. So we put a one person boot camp. I'm about to lose all my friends. They would have, let me just say in the little rooms, do you have M&Ms? You go there, the M&Ms will be gone. Because they could not boot camp. All my friends have been to Camp David outside of the boot camp weekends. So they know what is usually there. What's usually there. Yeah. And they get there. You should share with the audience, like, what is it like when it's not boot camp? There's candy everywhere. There's candy everywhere and cookies. It's supposed to be a delightful retreat. There's a little Shangri-La in where you can get bar food. Oh yeah. Wings. Wings and my friends would be lying and eating the healthy dinner, but then going to Shangri-La and getting some fried food. And I'd be like, this defeats the purpose. But that, you know, one of the things I knew about Sharon is like Sharon could hang because we were doing stuff like we were playing dodgeball. You know, I mean, women of all ages, remember Susan, one of our friends who at the time was in her seventies and we were competing with dodgeball with her. Oh no. Tell me you didn't hit her with a dodgeball. Well, she wasn't on my team and she was always the last person standing because nobody wanted to hit her. Yeah. You know, that we could have, we could have been wrong. That's good. We could have been wrong. You know, and I'm like, come on, somebody take her out. Just take her out at her knees. You know, everybody was like, oh, so Susan be standing there. She's the last man standing, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Relay races, but I want to know Sharon, how if you're, if you were your own patient, how would you describe yourself as a doctor? Oh, I would be the one in there really asking the questions and I'd be like, are you sure? You know, see, because I'm not shy when it comes to that kind of advocacy because I always had to advocate for myself because I had no one else to do it for me. You know, I didn't go to, I didn't, we didn't have, you know, people go to pediatricians appointments for just well children checkup. That was in a thing. Never. We went, you got shots at school and nobody got braces. No, no, no, no. I can tell you what kind of doctor she is. If I had grown up and lived in DC and if we didn't have Walter Reed, the presidential medical center, I would be among the many, many patients who are loyal to Dr. Malone throughout the DC area. I mean, everybody, she is delivered every child that we know. She has taken care of them through adolescence. And you imagine you, you, you birth a child and then you see them through to, if it's a girl, maybe you're talking to them about birth control. You know, you see some people into their adulthood because not only is sharing good, but she can, she provides, she's, she's, the confidentiality is real. There is no slippage. I don't know who half your patients are. You never talked about who your patients were, but everybody walked up and said, for all races throughout DC, I've been with Sharon for many years. My wife is with her. My daughters are with her. She is the go-to doctor. And I realized that, you know, started to realize how valuable that was during the boot camp weekends where we would, after we punished ourselves and ate salad and maybe had a glass of wine, we'd sit around and we just started talking about life and questions. And it often led to what was going on with us, our bodies as we aged. And Sharon was always there with just clear, practical guidance and advice that, you know, she's everybody's second opinion. You know, and maybe that's a good segue to talk about your new show, because that's another reason why we've got you on here. Is because you've been so popular with our IMO listeners and your book has been so popular that we are bringing you into the IMO family with your own podcast called Second Opinion. Can you talk a bit about your show? You know, first, I want to say thank you for that. But, you know, I wanted to be, I always modeled my professional career over, you know, I would say around the concept that I'm not the doctor in your patient. Okay. That's not how that hierarchical thing. Oh, got you. Yeah. Where doctors sometimes patronize. Yeah. Where you got to feel or I have to talk down to you because I know what it feels like being on that other side of it. You know, I know what that meant for my mother and family members to not be able to have, you know, adequate health care, particularly in the segregated South. So I wanted to come to the second opinion with the same, with that same attitude. You know, I do hear you and I see you and I understand what you're talking about. But I'm going to give you some advice in a way that you can understand it. And you know this, there's not a time when I'm out somewhere and someone who I just met will start to say, oh, you're a doctor. And then they'll start asking me the questions that they should have asked their doctor. But they don't have time to. And that's why I want the second opinion to be that show. I want it to be approachable. I want people, I want to talk about the things that people really have questions about, that you don't have time to talk about in your doctor's office, or that you, for whatever reason, may have been too intimidated or felt as if, no, that's a stupid question. There is no stupid question. Or may not even been trained to ask the question. Exactly. Sometimes you don't even know what the possibilities are. You know, and there's an intimidation factor. I mean, especially when it comes to women and people of color, you know, we don't, we don't know that we're supposed to question authority. We're not socialized to feel that way. So you, you have always been a safe space for all of our friends, our community. Sometimes you just need the reassurance that there's somebody who loves you, you know, who cares about you and sees you, who is, you know, pointing you in the right direction. And that's been the history of just women's interaction with doctors. I mean, we've not been believed. We've not been seen. You're being hysterical. And when you're talking about black women, then there is also this incredibly ingrained bias. We think that black women, oh, well, you're being, you know, you're just being extra, or you can take it, you know, and we know this because we have data that says that, you know, black women are constantly, you know, are consistently under medicated for pain, not believed, under treated for conditions that they actually do have. I mean, and that's, there's a lot of robust data about that. And so, you know, I, what I want to do. And like, let me, I'm going to be completely clear. I don't know everything. That's why the show is called the second opinion, because there are going to be things that I don't know. I may not know the answer, but I know who to call. And I also know the questions to give you such that when you see your doctor, you know the right questions to ask. But you're right, Craig. Sometimes you don't even know what the universe is. You just take that as, oh, well, I guess that's what my doctor said. But is it, is that the right thing for you? That's the mindset I want people to have. And in this world of social media, where people are way to reliant on their own search engines to answer deep medical, I mean, but I think that's just the, it's a reflection of how intimidating the medical process is. I mean, people would rather go online and feel the, what they mislabel as independence. You know, it's like, or, you know, a lot of people don't even have access. They don't have doctors to call. So especially this generation of young people who are going on WebMD and they're looking up symptoms and they're self-diagnosing or they're seeking out their own medication and all of that. That has become a growing sort of practice among a whole generation of people, which I find completely dangerous. Can you talk a bit about that? Hey, everybody, Craig Robinson here. And you guys have heard me talk a lot about how much I love staying in Airbnb's. Well, our family is planning a trip out to the West Coast to visit our daughter. And we were thinking, man, it's going to be hard to roll up in her two-bedroom apartment with six people. So we decided to get an Airbnb where we could all hang out comfortably. We'll have more bedrooms. We don't have to fight over bathrooms. There'll be a kitchen. We can cook out if we want. So my wife, Kelly, found the perfect place for us using Airbnb's guest favorites. We're staying close to my daughter's place, which means we can spend more time with her and easily get out into the city. We get a chance to tour LA, take her to her favorite restaurant, drop by Universal, let the kids play around for a day, or we could go by Griffith Observatory, which is the place I've always wanted to see. If you're starting to think about your next trip, check out Airbnb's guest favorites. Guest favorites are the most loved homes on Airbnb by other guests. This episode of IMO is brought to you in part by Acorns. Back when I was coaching basketball, I saw firsthand how powerful consistency can be. With Acorns, it's the same play. Show up, stay steady, and let time do the rest. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now, even if all you've got is spare change. You don't need to be an expert. 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The Colaguard test is intended to screen adults 45 and older at average risk for colorectal cancer. Do not use a Colaguard test if you have had adenomas, have inflammatory bowel disease and certain hereditary syndromes, or a personal or family history of colorectal cancer. The Colaguard test is not a replacement for a colonoscopy in high-risk patients. Colaguard test performance in adults ages 45 to 49 is estimated based on a large clinical study of patients 50 and older. False positives and false negatives can occur. Colaguard is available by prescription only. You know what, I think that the explosion of social media, particularly when it comes to medical issues, I mean, it is there's a lot of good that has come from it because it has, we've raised the awareness of a lot of issues, particularly when it comes to menopause and perimenopause. And I think that the conversation that you and I had five years ago really sort of opened the floodgates because you were one of the first people who said the word menopause, oh yeah, and I'm in it. And now it's a conversation that has been, you know, that is never ending. So that's good. That's great. It's really neat because as a husband and a father and a son, because, you know, the first time I heard about menopause was from my mom, and she was just talking about hot flashes. So she wasn't like, I don't even remember her ever talking about hot flashes. She would say it to me. She would say it to me when she was having one and she's like, oh, I'm having a hot flash. And I was like, I knew what a hot flash was. And I knew what it indicated, I should say. I didn't know what it was. I knew what it indicated. And so there are many men who can't even support the women in their lives because we have no idea what's going on. And so I'm so happy that we're talking about this from a man standpoint, because not only do we not know what's going on, we're not like women. Like Kelly goes to all of my appointments. I never go to her appointments. And I'm sure, I mean, I'm sure you don't see too many husbands coming in for their wives' OB-GYNY appointment. Only when they're pregnant. Right. You know, because that's like whatever's going on with you is only important when you have some, when you are carrying another human being. It's like I have a stake in the baby, but not in the woman carrying it. So you go on along to your pap smear. Right. So I want to be prepared. So when, as Kelly moves into this stage, I can be at least educated and be a little bit more supportive than... Right. And then be a role model for other dudes out there. Because it's a lot. It sounds like a lot. It's a lot. But you know, what menopause is, is that if men understood the things that women endure from the moment we hit puberty to straight through menopause, there is this normalization of women's suffering that we take on as well. Because we think we're supposed to suffer. Well, that's what being, oh, I'm supposed to have cramps. Oh, I'm supposed to have this. I'm supposed to. And so a lot of times we, because we don't know where to go and who to ask for help. And if you think that's normal, what really disturbs me is seeing how long women have suffered. And menopause is just the last of the suffering episodes that they have had to endure. And so when you get to menopause, if you understood that menopause is not just about a hot pot flash, menopause affects every organ system in a woman's body. So that's why a lot of the stuff, the irritability, the mood swings, the brain fog, the crying jigs, depression, anxiety, it's affecting your brain. It's not, you know, when people say, oh, it's just in your head. Yeah, of course, everything is in your head. You know, that's where everything registers. But it is having real life effects on your skin, your hair, you know, your sexuality, how you move around in the world, your confidence. Imagine if men experienced any of that. There would be a pill, a rub, a spray, and surgery already discovered and being implemented. But you know, the sad thing is that we do know how to treat menopause. We do. But unfortunately, it's like it's been a secret, you know, and this generation of women really has been left out of the conversation and thinking that they, because it's dangerous or maybe it's going to give me cancer, that hormone therapy, which is the most effective treatment. That's why I will get in people's business. Because if I see people out there and they're fanning or they got a little electric fan, I'm like, oh, hey, you know, we have something for that. Please don't just sit there because it goes on for years. It's not like labor where you go, well, this baby is coming out of there at some point. No, this is for years and for some women a decade or more of not feeling your best self when this solution is at hand for most women. But we don't know. Explain to Craig and the listeners once again what has been the rub against women using hormone replacement therapy? Yeah, you know, hormone therapy has been around since 1942. So it's not like we just discovered what the treatment is, you know, it's a hormonal issue that is dealt with by given women hormones, okay, estrogen primarily. And we've been doing that. But, you know, again, for women of color and for people who don't have doctors to see, you know, again, you're least likely to have gotten that in 1955 because, again, you didn't know and you don't have a doctor. So there's that. But the big shift happened in 2002. And there was a study that came out called the Women's Health Initiative, which really put the fear of God in women because we knew it was effective for treatment for the symptoms that everybody knew. But when it raised the issue that hormone therapy slightly increases the risk of breast cancer, then it was game set and match. Women threw away their hormones, no matter how great they built on them, they stopped taking them. And doctors recommended that they stop. Absolutely. Because, and then so imagine for 23 years, we've had the solution right at hand, and no one would take it for fear of breast cancer. And we're not, you know, and that's not true. And the data doesn't back that up. No, it wasn't true then, it's not true now, and that the benefits outweigh the risk. But we have to undo all of that think, that negative thinking, because women fear breast cancer more than they fear a heart attack, you know, because breast cancer strikes at something very, that's very personal, I can see it. So that's been my mission is really to try to get out there and to get women to understand, you know, suffering is a choice. Don't choose it. Why would you? Yeah. And let me just say, I don't choose it. I was started to feel the symptoms of menopause. It was sometime during the first term, and it comes like you wake up one day, and you're having hot flashes. And it's like, at what age I hasn't been in my late 40s, right? Mid 40s. But here's the thing. When menopause happens, is very different. It varies from woman to woman. It depends on your history, your gene structure. Some people go into menopause in their 30s. Some people may not feel any symptoms, right? And that's maybe confusing to husbands, right? Because if it's not, because you think, well, this should be happening equally to everybody, and it doesn't. So for me, I was in my late 40s, at least when I started having hot flashes. But I knew that that probably meant I was paraminopausal. I could have been paraminopausal for 10 years before that, right? But it just, it was like I woke up one day, and started having these bouts of severe heat and flash and sweating. It was like, what happened today? I woke up and it was different like that. So I was like, okay, this is, I knew enough to know, okay, I'm starting to have the hot flashes, right? And I thought probably like a lot of women, let me see if I could handle this, the suffering thing. Let me see if I can get through this. Why? I don't know. You know, probably I didn't think to just call the doctor right then and there. It started, let's go. But I said, well, I've got time. Let me just, you know, sit this one out. And I went on a couple of trips. I'm the first lady, right? I've got speeches and I'm on planes and I'm changing clothes. I got my hair done. It was one trip. I think I had about 40 hot flashes. And I was like, I can't live like this. I can't get off this plane soaking wet. I can't factor in the time to change clothes and redo my hair in between a day of speeches, right? I just, it wouldn't be a good look. People would be like, what's wrong with her? She must be lying. She's sweating, you know. And you're literally sweating. I think there are a lot of us out here, men who hear hot flash, but we don't know what it means. We don't know that you're dripping. You can wait. If you've ever had a night sweat, have you ever had a night? No, but I've had sweating from working out. So I know what sweating a lot is. It's different. Yeah. Sweating from working out, there's exertion that leads to your body heating up. And you can feel it coming and you, there's a connection. No, you were sitting here like this and from within, like a furnace is lit in you, like a hot, hot furnace, right? Like your organs are just hot coals, right? Your stomach, your liver, your heart is just, think of that. I'm not laughing at your pain. And it comes like that. It's not painful, but it's just hot, right? And then from within, inside, it's like you burst with water. Water just drips, dripping. Your clothes are soaking wet. You have to change your clothes. And you know what, that's a hot flash. And imagine for women, and this is happening, you know, peak career time. You're in your 40s, you're in a board meeting, or you're getting off Marine One, and, you know, and all of a sudden you just break out into a sweat, and you never know when it's coming. It's totally unpredictable. And one of the things, the other symptoms that women really find very distressing is the brain fog. Like you're sitting there and then all of a sudden, out of your head, you just completely lose your train of thought. And for professional women, you can't, you know, that's a problem. Yeah. You know, and it undermines your confidence, you know, your ability to do your job. So, you know, I say this, and I don't say this lightly, hot flashes are really important because not only are they just uncomfortable in the, in the short term, but they are harbingers of other things to come. And women who have a lot of untreated hot flashes are more likely to have disrupted sleep. They're more likely to be hypertensive. They're more likely to develop bad habits. Because again, if you're not sleeping, what are you going to do the next day to compensate? You're going to eat more, you're going to exercise less, all of these things independently and collectively increase your risk for cardiovascular disease. So that's why I say when I see a woman having hot flashes, I do want her to know that, no, this isn't something to say, oh, don't worry, it'll be over in 10 years or so. But then the damage is done. So what are your thoughts on the, on the notion that paraminopause is under diagnosed? Oh, that is, you know, at least for menopause, you kind of have an idea, okay, it's done and I'm not having my periods anymore. But the reason why paraminopause is so under diagnosed is because it wasn't really recognized as a thing. You can have all those symptoms that we were just talking about and still get in your period. And so, and you go to, and your hormones would be normal. If you went to the doctor and said, oh, can you check my hormones and hormones are normal? And then you walk out and go, oh, like, yes, it's just me, I'll have to wait. It might be eight, nine years before your period stops. So what are you supposed to do? Just be miserable for eight or nine years? No, you can treat when you're symptomatic. And I think that, again, we have a generation of doctors that doesn't really recognize and understand that you can treat treat when you're symptomatic, but there's not going to be one blood test that's going to confirm it for you. You are in paraminopause when you are having symptoms and nobody knows that but you. And then you have to communicate those to your doctor. Exactly. Exactly. Well, that's why we have to talk about the symptoms, right? Because a lot of women aren't even taught to be aware of what's happening with our bodies, right? A lot of women don't want to sweat period because they're don't want to move. We're more worried about getting our hair messed up and keeping the blow dry in or not, you know, messing up the perm. That becomes more of a motivator. So if we're not like. Messing your hair is the most important thing. That becomes. That may be a driver because if you're sweating so much, you just got to blow out and then you get a hot flash. Well, that might be a motivator for more women than we're in about being having a heart attack, right? So what can we do men as husbands to support our women earlier, later, you know, whenever it's needed to help us under help us cavemen know how we can help. No, but I think that having a little grace and really understanding that what she's going through is difficult. Yeah. You know, it's uncomfortable. It is sometimes that irritability, that little extra snappiness that happens. It's because, you know, that's because it's everything is affecting your brain. It really is. And sometimes you have to, even when they may not recognize it themselves, sometimes you might have to say, you know, honey, you look like you're having a bad day. You know, why don't you go sit down? I got this, whatever it is you need to get, be at the kids, be at the dishes, whatever. But giving them a little grace and say, if she's yelling at you, or she has broken out into a rage, because that's another sign. That's another symptom. That's probably why I was mad for a decade. But, paramedic puzzle, didn't know it, just rage. And you can sometimes feel yourself and say, now I know I shouldn't be that mad. Yeah. But what men need to understand is that don't get mad at her for being mad at you, understand that she's going through something. Yeah. Oh, see, and now you could just lost a bunch of men right there. It's like, what do you mean? We haven't lost them. You're about to lose them by getting on them before you give them a chance. I was just watching your face. Did you see his face when you said that? He was just like, well, that now. Would you let a brother soak in the information? Oh, tell me, what was the, so what'd you soak in? Let me see your reaction. Issue, this is just a typical relationship issue. If you happen to have like a response to some information that could possibly be read in a couple of different ways, it's like, there you lost one. Well, I'm just asking, what was your response? What was your reaction? My response was it is to me, for younger men, they won't know regular behavior from paramedic, causal behavior, because sometimes you all get mad at us. Anyway, so I'm thinking in my mind, how many people here went, ooh, I see a lot of men go, all the men are smiling because they're like, he's doing it for us. And all I'm saying is I'm trying to help get the message out to everybody that that's a great point because sometimes folks get mad at you because they're mad at you and you did something and they mad at you, but sometimes folks get mad at you because they're going through something. And we have to get better at being able to discern that or at least saying, are you mad at me or are you not feeling well or something like that? You got to put it into some communicative way. Like you say, to give them more grace, it's just not something that you learn on in the locker room or on the basketball court. You don't learn that. And you will not find it there. So you come to IMO to get some grace yourself. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance, who help people move forward and live fully. Owning a home can be one of the most powerful ways to build financial security, but for many, especially first generation buyers, it can feel out of reach. That's why I appreciate what Progressive is doing. In 2024, they contributed over $7 million to help individuals and families break the cycle of renting by providing support, offering educational resources, and developing tools to build long term financial stability through home ownership. Their work goes beyond just insurance. Their opening doors. 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And let's talk about fees, because honestly, nobody likes those, which is why Apple Card doesn't have any. No annual, foreign transaction, or late fees. No fees, period. Plus, when it comes to security, you can shop with a peace of mind knowing Apple Card is built with the advanced security of Apple Pay, including face ID and touch ID. So you're the only one who can use it. Apply in the wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval, variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.49% to 27.74% based on credit worthiness. Rates as of January 1st, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the wallet app, or at card.apple.com. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank, USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com. We are big dog lovers here at IMO. Everyone knows how important dogs are to myself and my sister's family. Pets just do so much for us. Companionship, emotional support, even getting us out of the house more. 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If you're not completely obsessed, you'll get your money back. That's ollie.com slash IMO and enter code IMO to get 70% off your first box. Ollie, feed the obsession. Well, you know, I'm going to give you a little easy way to think about it. If you come in and your wife is like on you and you whatever. And mind you, we are not talking about Kelly because she might be going through something, but I'm not aware of it. No, let me say this. I think the first question that comes in your mind when someone in there is like on you like it. The first question you need to ask is, what did I do? Ask yourself, sometimes you did something. Now, you know what I mean? Sometimes you did something. You know that we as men know when we have done something. But when you can honestly say, I didn't do anything, then you have to at least put that in the differential, saying perhaps this is something she's having a bad day. But go further than that. Don't just give her some grace and go literally down and take a nap. Say honey, maybe you need to see somebody. Go see your doctor because this seems a little out of character. How about let's go. Yeah, see. That's even better. That's even better. That's even better. But to let, to make her know that again, there we have options, we have treatment and you don't have to sit there and just endure it. And it will make everybody's life better. Your life better, children's life better, her life better. And here's something that I think the most surprising statistic for me was that two thirds of all people in this country with Alzheimer's are women. Two thirds. And it's not because we live longer. So that's not it. But it is clearly something about how women's brains are affected. And it starts happening at menopause. And again, you say, no one ever said, wonder why that is? We're just now getting to the point where we're starting to ask that question. And I think if there's anything that I want our listeners and viewers to know is that for what we do know right now is that for women who have an early menopause, which means menopause before age 45, or a premature menopause, which means your menopause will be for age 40, those women are more likely to develop Alzheimer's. So you got to say, well, hmm. And so the current recommendation is that though if you have an early or premature menopause, those women not can, but should take estrogen therapy and hormone and progestin therapy to protect their brains. And we got to do a little bit better job about asking and answering answering some of the questions about it. Something I always ask you Sharon, just because this is a me question, we've talked about this. How long do you stay on hormone replacement therapy? Because I use hormone replacement therapy and there's still a, you know, because there is still the thought that, well, you, you shouldn't do it for more than 10 years. There are a lot of women that hear that and they're trying to wean themselves off of it. Or you're trying to start late because you're like, I don't want to use up my time. No, not true. The American College of Obstetricians, the gynecologist, the menopause society, we all agree current guidelines are that unless you develop a contraindication to taking hormone therapies, you can take them forever. There is no set time at which you say that expires. And particularly when it comes to osteoporosis, hormone therapy prevents osteoporosis. But if you stop your hormone therapy, guess what happens? You start to lose your bone density again. And within five years of stopping, you'll be right where you would have been had you not taken it at all. So no, there is no reason. There is no time limit. And I think it's like a statin, right? Which we take all the time. But we, you know, people are on cholesterol medicine, they're on blood pressure medication, right? They, you know, if you have, if you develop one of the one of the four contraindications, then maybe what are those contraindications? Breast cancer, uterine cancer. If you have an active, like if you develop a pulmonary embolus, or you have vaginal bleeding that's undiagnosed, that's about it. And even some of those are sort of fungible. It depends. But I forgot what was I saying? What was I talking about? You see, I know this is the right way because and I can't help you because my brain fogged up too. You were, you were, you were talking about hormone therapy. You guys are funny. I know. Okay. I was saying on both ends, on both ends. So there's no time limit for how long you can take. But here's the other part that I want women to understand. You don't get any extra bonus points for saying, oh, I haven't suffered enough. Wait, I'll wait until they get real bad. No, you start when you are symptomatic and you don't have to wait until you've not had a period for 12 months. You don't have to wait until, you know, your brain fog is so bad, you can't find your way home. None of that. You can start when you say, I am symptomatic and this is bothering me. This is affecting the quality of my life. It doesn't, you, you actually do more harm by waiting than by starting because you get more benefit the earlier you start. Well, this, this would be a good time for our question because the question is very pertinent. And it comes from Kaz in Australia. What tips might you have about navigating transitions in life, in particular menopause, as it's a whole new ball game impacting on every part of life, psychological, emotional, physical and spiritual. I'm mostly interested in managing the roller coaster of emotions and sense of self. And I'm keen to hear from a woman and a man's perspective. Well, I think you know what, I think you know what my perspective is and that is, if you are having that many symptoms, then, you know, again, see your doctor and say, am I a candidate? Yes or no. And if they tell you no for no good reason, then you need to find another doctor or find some place where you can get the relief that you need because it is menopause is a total body experience. And, you know, I think that I would be remiss if I didn't say that the cornerstone of healthy living and healthy aging and longevity, all of it, has to do with living a healthy lifestyle. So, you know, you exercise, eat, right, have community, get a good night's sleep, cut down on alcohol. That's whether we're talking about menopause or we're talking about cancer. Oh, we got to cut down on alcohol. Now, how high on the list does that have to be? Well, you know what, you got, as I say, you know, I say when you got brain fog, sometimes you just need a glass of wine to make it clear it up. You know, I can see again, you know, sometimes you only hit four out of five of those things. So, you know what I mean? Well, I did get a good night's sleep. So, you know, as I said, there's got to be some joy in the world and we can't let that pendulum swing so far in the other direction. But I think, you know, in moderation, right? But when you've done all those things and you're saying, okay, I'm still feeling all of this tumult in my life, then let me say this and I'll say it loud for everybody here. There is nothing that is more effective for the treatment of menopausal symptoms than hormone therapy. Nothing. Some people might try one thing, we're here, but that's the number one. I want to tell TAS, was that or? TAS, TAS, we can see. You know, first of all, I want women us to embrace transition, you know, because I think that that's still something we struggle with, you know, the broader question was how do you manage transition, menopause being among that at this stage in life? You know, sometimes we view transition as something negative. It's like we are always evolving and that's a good thing. If we're alive enough to have transition, then we're blessed, but we shouldn't be ashamed of it, you know. And I've tried, I'm trying continuously trying because it's the thing you never stop working on as a woman, as a person is to try to figure out all that good and not get all sucked into what I didn't get, what I didn't have, what I didn't do because there's still time ahead. So embrace the transition. That's terrific. Embrace the transition and then see your doctor, live a healthy lifestyle, but the most important thing is get the hormonal treatment. You know, one thing I want to say correct before we leave TAS is that I also think that, you know, the two of us here at this table, where Michelle now is, you know, 60, I'm considerably over 60, but it gives you the role models for what your life could be. You just have to be well enough and healthy enough to be able to take advantage of it because I think this is a great time. It's different, but it's really the first time that we get to do what we want to do. You know, you're kind of relieved from a lot of those day-to-day responsibilities. And so I want young women and people who are going through this transition, don't dread what's on the other side because we're good. We are so good. The best time of my entire life is right now. It really is and that is not made up. I do not wish to be 20 again. I did not in any way, shape or form, but I enjoyed my 20s. I think young people should enjoy every decade and not bemoan it because there's learning in all of it, but there is some real freedom about this time in life and you just want people to be healthy enough to enjoy it. Right. And I'm thinking about my 70s. I'm thinking about my 80s because I, if I want to still be able to do some of this stuff in my 80s. Yeah, it is a journey and it can start by reading grown woman talk and listening to the second opinion. So what would you do differently, Craig? What are you going to do differently as a man after hearing this conversation? You know, I think it's going to start for me where I am going to start attending appointments with my wife when she goes in for appointments just because if she needs some, if she's going to be foggy, she's going to need somebody to, some backup in there to hear what's going on. I'm not the best at that because I don't even do it at my own appointments, but there's two, two heads are better than one. That's how I would start. Number one. Number two is I'm going to do a little bit more communicating as I see these symptoms coming along. Because right now, we're still got young kids. We're busy. It's easy for me to overlook any kind of behavioral changes because we're running around. So it's easy for her to look at and it might even be easy for her to overlook it too. So those are the first two. And then the third thing is this whole hormonal therapy thing, brand new for me. So this is, as always, it's just, it's a treat and so helpful, so resourceful, is absolutely the reason why you're kicking off your new show because we need more of this. And you have such a way about you that as a, I mean, this could have been an uncomfortable discussion for a guy. It absolutely was not. It was the opposite. I felt safe and informed and educated. Did you feel safe? That's what, let's hold this hand. You see, you would save a piece. I am trying to be nice. I love that. You're amazing. Your bedside manner is the best. You're the best. You see what I gotta put up with? I know you know her now. So you see. But I like that where I'm teasing you. But men do need to feel safe to be invited into these conversations and to, you know, and not feel ignorant or attacked or, you know, and it's probably better not to have some of these conversations with your own spouse because you might get some of that 1990 backlash. Right? You might get something wrong. You just made me think about the 1990s. That's right. Oh, you think I'm angry today? You remember how mad I was in 1990? Well, I am so excited that you are kicking off your podcast. It has been a long time coming. I am your biggest fan. And not just because you are my dear, dear friend, but as the listeners can see, she's one of the smartest women that I know. And she gives it to you straight with a little chaser. Everyone, please tune in to the second opinion, like and subscribe. Get it done. It's coming out soon. Everywhere you get your podcast. Thank you, Sharon. Dr. Malone. Always.