Noem Out, Iran War “Far From Over,” and Talarico’s Win

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This is not the future we were promised.

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for the show from the BBC. This is the Interface, the show that

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Scott is always late, as if he's the most important person. And yet he's not. Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

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And I'm Scott Gallowa.

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And where are you Scott?

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Somewhere over the North Atlantic. Kara, where are you?

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All right, I am in my studio in D.C. but we recorded Corey.

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Maintain eye contact. Maintain eye contact.

2:01

Is Corey Lewandowski with you?

2:05

Lewandowski, yeah. So I'm fairly certain he's not going to keep his job either, I'm guessing.

2:07

Well, let me just give people back it up for a minute. Scott. We recorded earlier but had to hop back on. Hence why you're on a plane and we're redoing this. President Trump has fired Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Nomer, given her a fake job. Trump announced the move. Untrue social saying Noem had served us well and had has had numerous and spectacular results. He announced the Republican Senator Mark Wayne Mullen would replace Noem. Noem is stepping into a new role apparently, she wasn't quite fired. I don't know what this is. It's like a firing.

2:14

Oh, no, she was fired.

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But I get it.

2:45

She's like special Envoy to Hulu, original programming.

2:46

No, she's special envoy. Let's get it right. Special envoy to the Shield of the Americas. I don't even. That's like a bad Marvel movie, I feel like. Like the one that we don't want to watch. But let's talk about this, because later in the show you have. We'll be talking about a lot of things happening right now for the Republicans. But talk to me about this firing a little bit.

2:50

Well, supposedly, I mean, you might have more information than me, but supposedly it wasn't the conflict of interest of having an affair with their number two. It wasn't essentially killing American citizens. It wasn't essentially overseeing what I would argue are the definition of concentration camps, and that is black sites outside the legal jurisdiction or protection of your origin country, which is the definition of a concentration camp. It was supposedly. What was the straw that broke Trump's back was that she had spent close to over $200 million, I believe, on ads featuring her, which appeared to be courtesy of her number two, an attempt to raise her awareness for a presidential run. But that. That was what angered Trump. What have you heard, Kara?

3:14

She was advantaging herself. And Trump likes to only advantage himself. Right. And so anybody else who's trying to do that. There was also the question, these two recent congressional hearings, to me, I felt the writing was on the wall because Republicans in the Senate particularly, were really going after her. So they knew that they had no repercussions to do so. Right. If they had gone after her because they were good people or because they had a backbone, I think only Thom Tillis has been doing that because he's leaving. This is Senator Tillis from North Carolina. I think they had permission to go after her, whether it was Kennedy, John Kennedy or others that really did attack her. And the Democrats did an excellent too, bringing up all these issues you talked about. I just felt like it was open season on her, so to speak, someone who enjoys killing dogs. And, you know, even the reaction has been interesting. Senator Thom Tillis, who was very upset about the disaster relief fuckups, I think, very much so. And about. Also about going after people who didn't commit any crimes. Right. Just in terms of. He kept talking about a quota system. Why are you doing it on a quota system? In these hearings, his, his thing on X, saying goodbye was Senator Mark Wayne Mullen is a great guy and a great choice to lead dhs, restore competence and refocus efforts on quickly distributing disaster aid. That's the first thing he noted. Keeping the border secure and targeting violent illegal immigrants for deportation. Another big positive, he likes dogs, which of course is referenced to her killing her dog. People are having a field day about this, of course, on the thing. Although one of the good ones about Mark Wayne Mullen, who is a senator from Oklahoma, was he can't even even have a border between his name, Mark and Wayne, Mark Wayne. But no, the Republicans felt emboldened to attack her and therefore it was very clear that they got their signals from the White House would be my guess.

4:08

But that just goes to what a poor manager and what a low character person. Spoiler alert. The President is. And that is when you hire people and you expect them to be part of a team if you know you're going to fire them. Which it sounds like he did because it took about three seconds. The moment they announced she was leaving, they announced her replacement to quite frankly trot her out and use her as an anger pillow and humiliate her before showing her the door. Knowing that you were going to fire, as opposed to saying, look, we're making a change. There's no reason for you to go in front of Congress. Or once you resign, you probably will not be called. Maybe, maybe they still would have called her in front of Congress.

6:01

Yeah, that last two days in Congress was bad.

6:42

That was okay. We have absolutely no respect, fidelity, camaraderie for the people I hire. And if it serves my political purposes, I will throw them under the bus and then back up the bus and run over them again.

6:45

That's the Trump way. Right? That's the Trump way. And in fact, he doesn't even give her the. I don't think she deserves any dignity. The dignity of just firing her like, you're fired. I mean, the guy who's so famous for doing, you're fired cannot say you're fired. You have to give him this semester Envoy to the Shield of the Americas, which. And of course, she's bragging as if she. Right. As if it was a good thing. Because, like, even as she's humiliated. And by the next humiliation, by the way, is going to be Pam Bondi. Right? That's obvious. He's going to go. All the ladies of the Trump administration are in big trouble and they will be the first to go. They'll get to Kash Patel at some point, or maybe not. But like another incompetent Another, you know, same thing with Pam Bondi. Mendacious and incompetent. And so the fact that he hasn't let go so many of these people already who are just not up to the task is really says a ton about his management style.

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I think they're more strategic than people want to give them credit for. And when I was a consultant, I always just said I would review decks and associates going in to present to a management team. I would say, I would ask a series of questions. And one of the questions I would ask what I would say, I would ask who's in the room that's not in the room. And that is what is the context, what is the influences, what is the overarching saying of the vibe in this room or their objectives before you even show up? And the two people that are always in the room around any Trump official and any public activity are 1. Roy Cohn. If you look at the way these people acquit themselves in front of the Senate and the Congress, one of the greatest erosions in the grand equity of the United States is there has always been a level of civility and decorum. We aren't that South Korean Senate where they break into fisticuffs or they start yelling at each other. There was always a certain amount of respect. But this Roy Cohn, deny, deflect, obfuscate, attack. You should be ashamed of yourself. You're a failed lawyer. Go on, don't answer the question that has in and among itself eroded the value and the prestige of the Senate. Roy Cohn is always in the room when these guys testify. The person that's always in the room is Epstein. And I believe there are three people armed with LLM saying, monitoring the temperature of Epstein in the news. And when it gets above a certain temperature, they think of distractions. And nothing is better than one of these hearings or declaring war or saying you're going to raise tariffs to 50%. But I literally think they have. They are monitoring the, the number of times Epstein and Trump are linked together. When it gets above a certain temperature in the press.

7:52

I think you're right.

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They, they throw someone under the bus, announce a tariff, start firing missiles, whatever it might be, capturing or absconding with leaders of Central American countries. But Roy Cohn and Jeffrey Epstein are in every room.

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That's really smart. And the Epstein stuff is not going away. Let me just say, as I said a half a year ago, it is here to stay. It's the thing. To Kristi Noem's credit, she did not go to the island on her fuck plane. So that's a good. That's a good part of her. But we wish you well, Christy. You're completely incompetent and deserve to be fired. But the fact that he kept you there that long says more about Donald Trump than it does about Kristi Noem. She is what she is, I guess.

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I heard she's gonna be volunteering at an all kill dog shelter.

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Oh, very funny. I mean, that's gonna go to the end of her days and deservedly so. Anyway, now back to the rest the of of the show. Guess where I went last night.

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Where'd you go?

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Party for Andrew Ross Sorkin at the French Embassy. Our favorite Canadian.

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I was not invited.

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I know. It was by Puck. And he got the First Amendment award. He gave him. He gave such a good speech. He's like, he's a very talented guy. He's such a nice boy. I don't know what else to say. He's a nice boy. He gave an excellent speech about the First Amendment. And he said everyone thinks he's Canadian because we say that's the case. He now has asked about his Canadian citizens.

10:48

He's a lovely man. I like his wife too. His wife.

11:07

But let's just say he's Canadian even though he's not Canadian.

11:10

The first time I heard his name.

11:12

What?

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Yeah, my first board meeting at the New York Times, they were going around and we have this succession strategy. And that's when I knew the CEO wasn't very good. Was. It was clear. She was like shooting everybody that got near the CEO spot. And they went through and we're trying to. Everyone was asking about compensation and equity awards and they mentioned this one young reporter and everyone's like, well, offer them 8%, you know?

11:14

Yeah.

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They go, oh, and we have this young reporter who's really talented, Andrew Sachra. And everyone went, pay him whatever he wants.

11:40

Oh.

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Everyone literally said, you know, we're trying to manage a company that we need fiscal discipline. It wasn't doing well. And his name comes up and everyone looks around. Pay him whatever he wants. We can't lose that guy.

11:46

Yeah, well, he looks great. He got the First Amendment Award and he gave a beautiful speech. Anyway, congratulations, Andy.

11:56

Was it a fun party?

12:03

It was a good party.

12:04

Daddy's going to a big party.

12:05

What are you doing?

12:06

Well, you were invited, but you wouldn't be my plus one.

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Oh, the Vanity Fair. I actually, the guy who's the editor's boyfriend, Sean McCreesh was there and he Sat where it's going. I said, well, Scott Galloway is going to be there, so he'll shut the place down.

12:09

You want to see someone at the bar having a good time?

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Yeah.

12:22

I've been so nervous about what to wear.

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You're going to spend most of the

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weekend trying to style myself, which is not easy.

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Don't wear jeans at a tux like Ted Sarando's. I didn't think that word.

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I'm rolling up to the bar and I'm getting fucked up, and I'm just going to observe. I don't need to speak to anybody.

12:32

No, you need to talk to people.

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You know what I do? I talk to Ted Sarandos about strategy and who you should acquire. That's the limit of my social capabilities.

12:38

Do not do the executives. Can I tell you two quick stories of.

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I want to meet the gay hockey guys. Will they be there?

12:49

Oh, they probably. I'm sure they'll be there. Oh, I bet they'll be there. Yeah. Meet the gay hockey.

12:51

Are you allowed to take selfies with that thing or do they take you out?

12:54

Well, I don't know. They used to. I can. Let me tell you two quick stories. I went to one when it was up at this. It was in that hotel, Sunset Towers. It used to be at the Sunset Towers. And it was small, much more intimate. And one year, all the tech people got went, like all. They invited all the tech people. And so I was like, fuck, I don't want to see these people. I want to see celebrities. And they. They kept. They're really shy at the time. And they kept bothering me, like to talk to me. And I was like, I don't want to talk to you, Sergey Brin. I don't want to talk to you. All you people. And Sergey Brin wouldn't. Wasn't able to talk to anybody, but. Except they were wearing Google Glass. He was wearing a Google Glass. And he goes, no one's talking to me. And I'm like, take off your fucking Google Glass and say you're a billionaire. That's how it's going to work here. The second time I went there, I ran into. I was talking, as you did to Bob Iger or I forget Comcast head may have been Ted Sarandos. And the guy who plays Harry Potter came up to me and said, excuse me. And he said, I've noticed all the really important studio people are sort of.

12:57

It's so lucky to have a story that makes you sound powerful.

14:03

No, I did. No, let me finish the story. Shut up. So he said, I've noticed you're talking. They're all talking to you and they're very interested in talking to you. Who are you? This guy was really smart. I love him. Daniel Gradcliffe. And I said, I'm their drug dealer. That's what I did. But I'm not. Anyway, I have a lot of good stories from there. You'll have a good time. Talk to people. Say hello to Robert De Niro if he's there. Because he's.

14:06

Yeah, that's not my style. I wasn't gonna go. I said no. And then someone we both know said, you have to go once. So I'm gone.

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You do.

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But I've literally. It's been very stressful picking out my outfit.

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Yeah, it's early. Remember, it's early. You go like, like 10 o' clock in the morning.

14:37

I'm literally leaving you at south by Southwest. I'm changing on the plane and I'm going straight to the event. I only think I was invited because they thought I was gonna be your plus one.

14:41

No.

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And you said no. And I said yes.

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No, I don't think so. Anyway, have a great time. You'll have a great time. We've got a lot to get to today. Cuz we also. We're gonna be in this weekend. We'll be in Minneapolis. We'll talk about that in a second on Sunday. We're very excited to do resisted unsubscribe there. But let's get to the news first. Let's dig in first. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth says the war in Iran is far from over, warning that we've only just begun. It was such a ridiculous press conference as a record. The House is set to vote on a measure to block President Trump from taking further action in Iran without congressional support. And the Senate already failed to do that, by the way. European leaders are pushing back on Trump, notably Spain's Prime Minister, who said we can't play Russian roulette with the destiny of millions of people. He's absolutely correct. The White House said they were cooperating and then they said they weren't. Trump is also facing pushback from parts of his MAGA base over the war, even as he insists MAGA loves what I'm doing, they do not love what he's doing. And looking at the economic impact, US Gas prices saw their biggest single day spike in three years this week, and oil prices continue to rise. This drag on the in the US Economy is going to be very tough for Trump and the Republicans, as we approach the midterms, I've been talking to a lot of Republicans, in fact, had a meeting with a very prominent one yesterday, and they are, they, I can tell you, they do not like this. Or they think Pete Hegseth is an imbecile, that's for sure. And they don't think this was well thought out at all. I think. And that's the Republicans, and these are people who maybe publicly are being supportive by at least voting against the restrictions on Trump. What are your thoughts about the economy? What's happening here?

14:52

It really hasn't taken much of a hit yet. It's the existential threat that it could digress into something much bigger and more dangerous. Oil is up about 11 bucks a barrel, or 10% or 12%, which translates to about 25 cents a gallon. Typically, typically wars. The markets go down and then they check back. And actually, the year after a war ends, markets typically outperform. So I don't think you can say that the markets have responded or that we know this is going to be inflationary. What I think you can say is that I believe if he had gone to Congress and made an argument for why we're doing this, why now, and what are our objectives, he might have gotten the authorization for the use of military force. They never get declarations of war any longer. They get AUMFs. But unfortunately, what they've done is because they had to position this as a defensive action. They said, oh, one of our allies was about to be imminently attacked. We were going to have to respond. So it's like, okay, you just gave into this very dangerous trope that Israel's controlling the U.S. yes. That was just. And you have had such inconsistent messaging.

16:28

Absolutely.

17:41

This is regime change. No, we don't want regime change. This is going to be five days. We'll be there as long as it takes. Yeah, this is a.

17:42

Now the Kurds. We're bringing the Kurds in.

17:48

Yeah. Now we're going to operate the Kurds. Well, okay, what does that mean when the Kurds get fired up in other regions? This is a special combat operation. No, it's a war. They have so much inconsistent messaging and the fact that they didn't reflect the confidence to, at a minimum, think about the American citizens in the Gulf and a plan for getting them out of there.

17:50

That seems like makes Biden's Afghanistan withdrawal.

18:09

Seems like, in addition, just tactically bombing Tehran. The real danger here is that the Iranian people are not on our side turn against us. Because what the Iranian Biggest miscalculation was firing. They basically, Jon Stewart summarized it as two guys start beating up on you, so what do you do? You try and start a fight with everyone in the bar. That was a real strategic mistake on the part of Iran. But our potentially biggest mistake is when we're bombing Tehran, you're essentially flattening neighborhoods of people who are probably more pro west and empathetic. It's the kind of religious, the theocracies in the rural area. So no one really trusts. I think the why, why now and objectives had legitimacy here. And he potentially could have got 77% of Republicans are, or 72% of Republicans are in favor of this. Only 17% of progressives, but that's low.

18:12

72% of Republicans is low. It's usually 95%.

19:13

The broader number is 4159. So let's be clear, the majority of Americans do not support this. I still think had he had a well thought out plan, he could have gotten potentially.

19:18

I don't agree with you. I think this was interesting listening to this Republican, very high profile politician. He was like, they have 15 days to resolve this because if it drags on more and they don't seem to have a point, it's a problem. And one of the things he was pointing to was unaffiliated voters. He said this. He says across there are red lights everywhere for Republicans around Independents and independents hate this. And he said if he doesn't have a very tight, sharp plan in place, I mean, he was blummoxed that they didn't have one, Mike, that they didn't and they weren't communicating them. And I'll tell you, when he had gone to that briefing about whether there really was an imminent threat, and one of the reporters asked him, was there an imminent threat? And he said, well, there's been one for 47 years. That's what it sounded like. Like he was like, didn't even buy their nonsensical reasons.

19:27

But you asked, you asked about the economy. So the decision to go to war, in my opinion, is not what is going to be, quote, unquote, the downfall or really hurt the Trump administration. It's the following. It appears that these types of actions, unilateral actions, where you don't make any attempt to get European or Gulf nations involved to increase legitimacy, much less the resources. Right. These nations could have helped shoot down. These nations have their own military, their own intelligence. They could have served a real valuable role in help protecting those Gulf states, achieving the objectives. The fact that we now have a $1.1 trillion military that appears to be run by incompetence. In addition, America was the operating system. We everyone settles their trades in dollars. They operate on the IP agreements of America. We largely enforce the flows of energy with our Navy, our military bases, make sure that rogue nations don't go too rogue. We're sort of been the operating system. Now, this decision, amongst others, specifically going about it unilaterally with no attempt to even consult Congress or our allies, all of a sudden shows the nation that used to enforce that no nation go too rogue. They're now that rogue nation. Yeah, but I think the real existential threat to the economy and to American prosperity is the following. It's yet another data point that shows we used to be the cop or the protection when we hear a knock at the door. Now we are the knock at the door.

20:19

Yeah, I get it. It's really. What's interesting is how many people are secretly not for it. Right. It's a really. You do see the strength of people pushing back now on Trump, which is really interesting. Much more so all over the place, not listening to him, not going along with him. Now, typically, politicians go along with anybody when there's a war happening. They try not to be too difficult. But one of the things is this further abrogation of power by the Congress in terms of where they. And they're sitting around talking and debating about whether they have power or not. I don't know if you've followed any of that. It's kind of ridiculous. And they do. And one of the. I think it just creates more chaos around Trump. It's chaotic at the same time as all his. The people that work for him are incompetent. That seem more and more. And especially Pete Hegseth, he seemed completely out of sorts for this. And one of the. Of course, there's conspiracy theories everywhere, but one of them is that if Iran hits the United States in some way a city, a United States city, which is entirely possible, that's what he'll use as the excuse to call martial law. Just. Just so you know, there's a lot of things happening all. All at the same time. And I just don't. It's not good because it's chaos and Trump, Chaos and Trump. And so I think Trump is the same thing as our domestic problems here with him. It's chaos. It's chaos and it's not thought out, and it's incompetence. And, you know, obviously the Republicans are worried about the midterms and they should the first primaries of the 2026 midterms. Here are some of the highlights from Tuesday's elections. In Texas, Incumbent Senator John Cornyn and Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton are headed to a late May GOP Senate runo. The GOP clash is already the most expensive Senate primary in history with Republicans alone racking up nearly $100 million in ad buys. Trump is supposedly gonna pick one and tell the other to get out, but Ken Pax has already said he's not getting out even if he doesn't get picked. And State Representative James Talarico beat Representative Jasmine Crockett in Texas Democratic Senate primary. Let's listen to a clip from Talarico's victory speech.

21:46

To the billionaires who have taken over our state and taken over our country. Your unchecked power is coming to an end. Your days dividing working people are numbered.

23:55

Oh, he sounds like a guy we should hang out with. Good, good, good. It was a good speech. And actually I have to say Crockett handled the defeat well. They seemed to come together. Everyone's like, we're all gonna come together. And they both ran really tough. And then I have to say everybody acted. The Democrats look like they're not in disarray, as they say. Texas Supreme Court stepped in to block a last minute voting extension in two counties after GOP primary polling mix ups backing an appeal from Ken Paxton. It seemed like he was just trying to create chaos. In North Carolina, former Governor Roy Cooper won the Democratic Senate primary quite easily and will face Republican Michael Whatley for Senator Thom Tillis seat in a race that could help decide Senate control. So interesting stuff going on there. A lot of people lost their jobs. Dan Crenshaw lost his job. He was targeted by a billionaire. Speaking of billionaires who spent enormous amounts of money to get rid of him, there was a. In North Carolina, the head of the state Senate who'd been in power for a long, long time is in a very tight race. A lot of people losing, losing their jobs, like all over the place. So what do you think this means for Democrats this year and for Republicans?

24:12

It's very exciting. For Democrats, the, I mean the Talarico race. First off, if Talarico wins the seat against the Republican nominee, I think he's likely or very likely to be the vice presidential pick in 2028. Because if he wins this and shows an ability to win in Texas, if as VP they think he could deliver Texas, it's game over for whoever's for the Democrats win. If you could Flip Texas in a presidential race, don't you think he should

25:27

stay there for a little bit it get mass power?

25:55

Well, how long did, how long was a senator?

25:58

Yeah, that's right.

26:01

I mean, the VP is supposed to be the person who could take over. It's not. The VP is brought on to hopefully win a state that is a swing state, for the most part anyways. So it's exciting. It's an exciting moment for Talarico. But what's really exciting for Democrats is that through the odds, the majority or the number of Democrats turning out in a primary was in the high Hundreds of thousands, seven or eight hundred thousand. 2.1 million Democrats turned out. And the other very exciting thing is that I think it was 1.8 million Republicans turned out. So whatever party is able to turn out more people for the primary gives you real insight into what's going to

26:02

happen in the general, especially among Hispanics. He really pulled in that he shifted the them.

26:44

And if we have the first Texas statewide Democrat elected in 20 or 30

26:49

years, Lloyd Benson was the last one.

26:54

I think it was Ann Richards.

26:56

No, no, she was governor.

26:57

She was governor. There you go. So this is an exciting, this is just a super exciting moment for Democrats. So I, I don't, you know, I don't. I don't think you can overstate it. All the races look to be. Have been closer. The surprising stuff was some of the. More, Some of the Republicans who lost their, Lost their seats. That was very interesting. I was thinking of sending some money to Paxton because I'd love to see him against Talarika, because I think that means Talarika wins.

26:58

Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, he's refusing to get out. I mean, who knows if he, I mean, Trump's gonna try to get him out. Supposedly they think Cornyn is the better person to run against.

27:27

Well, he's more electable.

27:36

He's absolutely more electable within the mag. It doesn't excite the MAGA groups. Right. They like Paxton. He's backed by all the MAGA groups. All of them.

27:37

Yeah. It's, this is like. I looked at the results and all I thought was, and I tried to screen out my biases, I thought, there's just no getting around this. This feels really good.

27:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, see, it was really interesting and I thought that Talarico's continued focus on the rich was really interesting. It's really, it's, it's. He's got a similar vibe of. Obviously you would point to AOC and.

27:57

Or Bernie.

28:11

Yeah, Bernie and Of course, Mamdani like, he's like the Texas Mandani kind of thing. And so, you know, I kept saying, you know, if he wins and of course Trump attacked him quite a bit, he'll be at the White House hanging out with Trump. Like Trump will be hugging him like, and stuff like that because he loves a winner, that kind of thing. He's just the kind of person that will do pull a similar thing that Mondani did.

28:11

Well, Mondami was to his credit, Mondame was smart. He showed that he was a pragmatist and he was willing to. He wanted to be effective versus right and not politically grandstand and he got that woman released. He's proven to be quite pragmatic.

28:34

He's kept Jessica Tisch as police commissioner who is very effective. I just have a feeling Talarika is going to have the same experience with Trump that Trump will bear hug him.

28:47

But the class warfare, if you will, around the billionaire class. So the Gini coefficient, which is a measure of inequality, if it's 0 to 1, if you're at 0, it means everyone has exactly the same amount. If you're at one, it means one person has everything. I think. But revolution always takes on a different complexion. I think what we have now is a series of smaller revolutions. But when you start identifying a class of people based on their wealth, I mean, that kind of means the revolution is coming. And Trump and Epstein and the people Epstein surrounded himself with, it has created. I mean, we are. I mean, the revolution here might be a series of tax increase. I don't know how it's gonna play out.

28:57

Let me just read something. This was in a story I read. The richest Americans have amass enormous wealth in recent years, while most Americans have seen theirs stagnate. The net worth of the top 0.1% doubled from 2020 to a collective sum of $24.9 trillion in the third quarter of 2025 and now accounts for 14.4% of the total household wealth according to the Federal Reserve. That's an astonishing figure.

29:41

Well, yeah. What William Gibson said about technology is true about prosperity. And that it's prosperity is here in America. It's just not evenly distributed.

30:08

Yeah.

30:16

And it's made us more fragile as an economy to sink to the morality of it. 10%. The top 10% of US households are now responsible for 50% of the spend.

30:17

Right. I think tech billionaires have done so much damage to themselves in this, the way they behaved. And they do act like they have unchecked And I think Elon Musk will go down in history as someone who really began the pushback against this because the way the imperious and ridiculous way he conducted himself and all of them, all of them do, all of them

30:25

well, becoming the wealthiest man in the world such that you can cut off aid to HIV positive others, that's not a good look.

30:42

Yeah, it's not a good look. Anyway, congratulations to Tallarico and others who won.

30:46

And to Jasmine Crockett, by the way. I thought she ran a great campaign.

30:52

She went right up and then attacked Kristi Noem beautifully. Like, did a beautiful takedown of Krissi Noem, which is. She's very good at her job. We haven't seen the last of her.

30:55

Hope not. I think it's great.

31:05

She really is okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll what Sam Altman is saying about OpenAI's deal with the Pentagon and what Dario Amodi is saying about Sam Altman. It's pretty eviscerating. Support for on with Karis Fisher comes from the 2027 Chevy Bolt. As you all know from listening to me, I love my Chevy bolt. It's one of my favorite things. I almost like it as much as my kids anyway. That's right. The Chevy bolt is back and better than ever now with 2.5 times faster charging with DC Public. Fast charging that goes from 10 to 80 in just 25 minutes. I've been riding around in the bolt for years, and again, I have to say, I love it. I don't know why I love it so much. It's just happy car. Some of you times you have sad cars. Happy cars. I've had the cars for a couple of years. I've never had a problem with it. It's freezing cold here in D.C. right now and nothing happened to my battery. I charge it. I happen to charge at my house. It does take a little longer, but with this new Chevy, bold, it's much faster. I'm thinking of trading it in. Although I love my bolt, so it's a very difficult decision. I just think I can't say enough about the Chevy bolt and the amount of time you've been listening to this show, your bolt could have charged and be ready to hit the road. Best of all, 2027 Bolt features, upgraded tech, has an 11.3-inch diagonal touchscreen. All that and more in Chevy's most affordable ev. It was easy to use before. It's easier to use and easier to charge and I know some people are worried about that, that you shouldn't be. Learn more@chevy.com bolt 2.5 times faster charging with 150 kilowatt plus DC fast charging 2027 bolt when compared to the 2023 bolt which is the one I think I have. Actual charge times will vary. See the owner's manual for details and limitations.

31:07

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32:55

Hey, Kara Swisher here. I want to let you know that Vox Media is returning to south by Southwest in Austin for live tapings of your favorite podcast. Join us from March 13th through the 15th for live tapings of Today Explained Teffy Talks, Prof. G Markets and of course your two favorite podcasts, Pivot and On with Kara Swisher. The stage will also feature sessions from Bernay, Brad Brown and Adam Grant, Marques Brownlee, Keith Lee, Vivian Tu and Robin Arzon. It's all part of the Vox Media Podcast stage at south by Southwest, presented by Odoo. Visit voxmedia.comsxsw to pre register and get your special discount on your innovation badge. That's voxmedia.comsxsw to register. Really, you should register. Register. We sell out and we hope to see you there. Scott, we're back. OpenAI has updated its deal with the Pentagon, adding language that says its AI system shall not be intentionally used for domestic surveillance. CEO Sam Altman wrote, it's critical to protect the civil liberties of Americans. But at an all hands meeting this week, Sam told staff that OpenAI had no control over how the Defense Department uses its software and while defending the deal in the Pentagon, he acknowledged that rolling it out so quickly made the company look, quote, opportunistic and sloppy. That's the app producing and sloppy is the porn name of OpenAI. Sam said it's been painful to try to do the quote, right thing and then get quote, personally crushed for it. Oh my God, Sam, this is so. He needs to stop talking. I've gotta say it's a question of whether he's actually tarnished the brand too much in his actions. ChatGPT uninstalled surged 295% the day after the Pentagon deal was announced. Clawed downloads continue to spike. Meanwhile, Anthropic CEO Darya Modi told his staff that the Trump administration didn't like Anthropic because it hadn't given dictator style praise to Trump. While Sam, has he really laid into. If you think Elon Musk and Sam Altman have a problem, Dario Modi and Sam Altman have a problem. What do you think about this? This is like a real, oh God. Something's going on over there at OpenAI that they really need to fix.

33:54

I think of it on the other side and you know, as people know, we're going to be resistant unsubscribe in Minneapolis on Sunday. And the way we're evolving it is we're now going to try and encourage people to sign up for who we think are good actors. And the most obvious contrast here is the contrast between OpenAI and Anthropic. And I've been saying for six months that I thought one of the biggest commercial opportunities was for a CEO basically to say no and say we're done enabling this type of depraved behavior. We're not going to engage in the violation of Americans rights. And the hero we didn't think we needed is Dario Omota. He's basically stepped up and he said no. And just to the point of it being a huge commercial opportunity. Anthropic immediately searched number one in the App Store and its annual recurring revenue has gone from 14 billion to 19 billion in just one week. So this is going to be, this is a big moment because what Dario and Anthropic have done, even if they don't realize it is they're all of a sudden going to give a bunch of CEOs across America the confidence to start saying no. Because I thought it was going to be Nike, but we said this six months ago. It's a huge commercial opportunity.

36:18

It's got to be a tech person. Since tech has been so in bed with Trump, it's got to be a tech person doing it.

37:34

Fair point. But the point is, the opportunity here was for someone to just stand up and say, enough already. I'm not going to. I'm done.

37:40

I'll tell you, a lot of Republican senators really have not liked the way Hegseth has handled. I've been talking to a lot of them quietly. They have been saying this.

37:48

It's anti capitalist.

37:57

Yes. They're very not disposed. They're like, when did we become communists, essentially? And one of the things that'll be interesting, I mean, sort of anthropic, is a little like what Thom Tillis has been doing. He's left, but he has enormous leverage over the Trump administration now because he can say things. And so he says, this sucks. Stephen Miller sucks. Right. He does say it outright. And then others say, well, I'm not really liking some of the things Stephen Miller. It gives them the courage to say slightly less critical things. And I think that's a great way to be. And Darwin is sort of playing that role. I get it. But he's playing the role of a heat shield in a lot of ways.

37:58

If you're Anduril, you get to make weapons for the government. It's legal. If you're Palantir, you get to sell data to the government as long as it's legal and for whatever purposes they might use it for. And if you're anthropic, you get to work with who you want. You can't do it based on. You can't discriminate or not work with people based on their sexual orientation or their ethnicity. But they can. Absolutely. We get to decide who we take ads from. We say no all the time to advertisers and say no, we're not comfortable with it. The big thing here is that in one week, Claude went from number 42 to number one in the free App Store. So this is. I mean, this is a big moment. This is a turning point. Because just trust me on this, in the next 30 days, all of a sudden we're gonna see these CEOs cosplaying Nelson Mandela and acting all righteous.

38:36

I don't know. I don't know about that. One of the things that was interesting to me, a poll out in Emerson. Poll, I can't remember. That wasn't Emerson. It was a. It was a more normal poll that said that people want CEOs to remain neutral, but they also want them to be genuine. So they kind of like this, you know, even though they say they don't want companies to weigh in, they kind of do, which is interesting. People answer differently. I do think people do vote like with resistance unsubscribe if you don't like how chat. So many people have told me they have dumped chatgpt more than any of the other ones. And Amazon would be the second one. When they come up to me, ask me about your efforts with Resist and Unsubscribe. It's always Amazon and OpenAI that they focus in on. That's what I've noticed.

39:35

But we haven't had an option to the upside. We haven't had a carrot just to stick. And this has given everyone the ability to say, all right, my lack of spending is a signal, but my spending can also be a signal. And I think there's a big opportunity here. And I'm personally going to urge people to sign up for and patronize anthropic and to unsubscribe and not use OpenAI and send a very strong signal that people notice. And when certain companies stand up at potentially, you know, potentially pretty severe risk of retribution from the largest customer in the world.

40:19

It is, it still is. There's all kinds of second order effects of. Palantir uses Claude. A lot of people use Claude.

40:54

It's a real risk. It might cost them in the short run.

41:00

Well, there's a lawsuit too over the

41:02

medium and the long term. I believe this is one of the biggest commercial opportunities presented to companies right now.

41:04

Yeah, we'll see where it goes. The issue. Let me just make a warning for anthropic Dario, who is a typical tech person. Arrogant. It can be arrogant and imperious kind of thing. He loves to write, which I appreciate. I like a CEO that does really. He's a good writer actually. He's got to be careful not to appear to righteous. Right. Too self righteous. I think that's where I think he

41:10

should go dark and just let his actions speak for his words.

41:35

Yeah, exactly. I think there is that. You know, that he's definitely getting attacked by the idiot. Emil, Michael and David Sacks, the other moron.

41:38

Well again government officials deciding that we're now, like you said, central planning. It's another data point. You asked about the economy. Every time we diminish the rule of law, everyone is entitled to and subject to the same laws. Every time we say okay, the law is now a tool for political retribution based on who's in power. Our price earnings multiple on the S and P goes down.

41:46

He's more powerful. Darium Modi is more powerful now than he was because he's the only one. Right. And the same thing with the Thom Tillis. He has more leverage now in his 300 days left because it gives people permission to be. To push back. You know, maybe not. He gets to be the louder one. Both of them. And it'll be interesting. It'll be all over the place. Speaking of not pushing back, FCC chair Brendan Carr, who I love to call a moron because he is, says he expects the Warner Brothers Paramount merger deal to get through approval pretty quickly. Of course, you lap dog. Let's listen to what he said when asked about whether he would have concerns about the Netflix deal.

42:13

There was a lot of concerns in D.C. and you can see it already just the scope and scale on the streaming service service in particular. They would have a very difficult path forward. From a regulatory perspective this deal is a lot cleaner. Does not raise at all the same types of concerns. I think there's some real consumer benefits that could emerge from it.

42:53

He's right about it was. Obviously they're smaller. That's. That's right, Brandon. But Brandon has nothing to do with this deal. And he always mouths off on everything. Meanwhile, Fitch Ratings, one of the Wall Street's big credit rating agencies has cut Paramount's credit ratings to junk status. No surprise. Enormous debt. I think from 75 to $100 billion in debt. It's a big chunk of money. They say they're going to deleverage quickly but it's always hard. As Bill Cohen noted. And David Zaslav also not looking so good. President and CEO of Warner's. He's looking good to shareholders. Filed to sell over $114 million worth of stock in the company. He's getting pilloried by because it's very clear that Paramount will have to cut they say 6 billion. It's much higher. Car does not play a role here. Just for people to understand a real role. But it will get through. It probably will. They've been working Europe, they've been working the government. It's just a question of how they get through and what damage they have done by doing this very non economic deal. Any more thoughts on that?

43:09

When the book on the worst acquisitions in history is written, it should just be called Warner Brothers.

44:12

It's true.

44:19

I mean if you, if you rat. If you ran into Time Warner executives in 2005, Steve Case, super smart. He realized that AOL had nowhere near the value it was trading at. So he said this is a Time to trade it in for boring revenues that come from records and books and parks and movies. And if you find a Time Warner executive two or three years later, literally their retirements were ruined because of what was the worst acquisition in history. And that's Time Warner's merger with AOL and AOL within like 36 months was worth 10% of what time Warner had to pay for it and give up. And then AT&T bought Time Warner and then barely. And then had to take a haircut. And then Time Warner merged with Discovery and basically it turned into just a giant public benefit organization. It's like basically the merger between Discovery and Warner Brothers is. If David Zaslav had been. Honestly would have stood up and said, look, this can make me almost a billionaire, regardless of whether I destroy or make shareholder value.

44:19

He certainly didn't improve it.

45:29

It's underperformed the S and P by any stretch of the imagination. He's a brilliant investment banker and he's gonna walk away with $700 million. Whatever. It's legal. Good for him. Shareholders. What I don't get is if I was Netflix, I'd be much meaner or more Machiavellian and I'd be trying to fire up as many Democratic lawmakers as possible.

45:33

I think they are. I think probably they are. They're saying a lot of, you know, Jerry Cardinale, who's one of the investors, tried to clap back at Netflix. All the. I've talked to some Paramount executives and they're all unions.

45:52

I don't get. I can't get over it.

46:04

Paramount executives. Like Netflix has got sour grapes. I'm like, they're accurate. Sour GR grapes. Like, sorry. I think it's very effective by slapping them, you know, making them a villain. But yeah, I agree.

46:05

The unions, why it's going to be 8x. And also Edgar Bronfman, Sherry Redstone, and now David Ellison. There's a general trend throughout history where dad makes a ton of money through grit and creativity and then dad Junior loses it.

46:16

Yeah,

46:32

but basically the only ones who are.

46:35

Rupert Murdoch took his dad, but that was like the small.

46:37

I mean, he was a rich kid, but he turned his father's into an empire. Anyways, anyone involved in media now is basically a billionaire's kid looking to go to the Oscars and make the family 80% less wealthy.

46:41

Yeah, it's true.

46:58

And that's what Bronfman did. That's what Shari Redstone did.

46:59

Definitely did.

47:02

And that's what David Ellison is about to do.

47:03

Well, he has a lot of money, so he has a lot to lose. He really, really, really likes making movies.

47:06

Go this company. This company is going to be. They're going to try to go to AI to cut. Re to cut, I think. And I think you're going to see a lot of AI slop. I think the creative community is going to turn on them and I think this is going to be very. I would not want to own those bonds right now unless they're senior secured in the stack. But I think this is going to be very.

47:10

And of course they're going to get a lot of attention with the news thing, even though it's a smaller part of the empire. You know, they're going to.

47:30

I wouldn't be surprised if they sell it.

47:37

I've never bought know for sure they're merging CBS and cnn. They have to. It's economically untenable not to do so. I would hope they would put Mark Thompson in charge of the whole thing. I think he's a really good person and very well liked. I can tell you it's hair on fire over at CNN in terms of being. I get, I get like, like covered with cnn. What's happening, Kara? What's happening, Karen? I have some knowledge, I will say, but they're definitely merging. Merging the two of them. There's no other choice for them to be there.

47:39

I think they should have CNN anchors on Survivor, the CNN show. Dana Bash. Oh my God. She would.

48:11

So Kaitlan Collins would kill them all, don't you think?

48:18

Oh, no, I think Dana Bash. I think Dana Bash is the kind of person that would smother you in your sleep if she needed to.

48:22

Really? I feel like Kailyn called. Did you see her like kicking the press secretary's ass?

48:27

I think there's a very dark, interesting side to Dana.

48:33

Okay. All right. But we know we don't care and

48:35

I'm here for it. Dana, by the way.

48:37

But you don't know Jake Pro will get gotten. Anderson, of course, is so sweet. I'm trying to think if there's an outside person. Bruno, I don't know. There's a lot of people there. There's a lot of people. I'm going to vote Kaylan Collins. You can vote danavesh. But we definitely think Anderson and Jake will be. Will be off. Will be dinner.

48:39

I think Fareed just opens a bar on the island and says I'm done. I'm done. I'm sick of telling people what's going to happen.

48:59

Stack rank. The survivability on an island of CNN anchors. Oh, that's so funny.

49:06

Yeah. Who wins in survivors? CNN Survivor. They're literally going to have to do create. That would be so Survivor, the CNN edition.

49:12

Scott, what do you do with Scott Jennings? What do you put.

49:21

Oh, he's killed by his own troops. He's like, he's they. I mean. Yeah, no, he's the guy. He's the guy they bury. They bury up to his neck in sand and tide. Come in slowly.

49:24

No,

49:37

they're like, is there a fire

49:40

ant I don't dislike.

49:41

Is there a fire ant hill on the island? We have an idea for Scott.

49:42

This is. I know it's kind of sick, but it's such a funny idea to have something like this.

49:48

No. We have Michael Smerconish leading campfire songs at the end of night to make everyone feel Good. We have AC360. That guy who substitutes for Anderson. He just has to walk around with his shirt off. He's hot.

49:52

John.

50:03

He just has to walk around with his shirt off. I've got it all. If Ellison's call me, I take back everything I've said. I have a way to pay off.

50:04

You should let us run.

50:12

You should let us Survivor the CNN edition.

50:13

I'm telling you, Caitlin Collins will take them all down. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, the return of the burger wars. This is right near wheelhouse

50:16

after decapitation strikes against Iran's leadership. What can we expect next in the escalating war?

50:29

The big question is if there is

50:35

going to be a next strongman in Iran, what kind of strongman will that person likely be? I don't think that there's going to be another powerful cleric supreme leader. I'm John Finer. And I'm Jake Sullivan and we're the hosts of the Long game, a weekly national security podcast. This week we sit down with Kareem Sajapour to discuss what to expect in this next phase of the war against Iran. The episode is search for and follow the long game wherever you get your podcasts.

50:37

Hey, guys, it's me, Tuffy, the host of Tuffy Talks. On this week's episode, we're doing a state of the union but more state of pop culture 2026 from Ozempic to Tradwives.

51:07

Spooky.

51:20

And why the center of pop culture is in Utah. Now we do a deep dive on Chloe and Lamar. We talk Hilary Duff.

51:21

You know what?

51:29

Find us everywhere at Taffy Talks. Subscribe on YouTube and all the podcast platforms. And Instagram and TikTok so you can share with your other work bestie and hopefully everyone you've ever met. Hi, this is Kara Swisher. And this week on my podcast, on with Kara Swisher, I talked to California Governor Gavin Newsom. While he hasn't officially announced a run for president yet, he's telegraphing it all the time. It's exhausting. He's also got a new book out, which is what you do when you're running for president. It's called Young man in a Hurry. I recently interviewed him live in San Francisco. Have a listen.

51:30

The problem with the Democratic Party so often is we appear weak and we've got to be stronger and we've got to be more assertive. And so that's, you know, it's the spirit, I think, that is required of this moment.

52:08

I've known Gavin Newsom since he was mayor of San Francisco a million years ago, a million hair gels ago. And he's a really interesting and compelling politician. He's done a lot of things in his career. And this one, this run for presidency, which is going to happen, is among the most interesting. You can find a full conversation wherever you get your podcast and on YouTube, obviously. Be sure to follow and subscribe to on with Kara Swisher for more. Scott we're back with more news. Burger King and McDonald's have some social media beef. I can't believe I just read that. McDonald's posted a video of its CEO eating the company's Big Arch burger last month. And while he says he was taking a big bite, the bite was small. He also called it the product. The video went viral because of the discrepancy. And then on the day of the release of the Big Arch burger, King posted a video of its president eating a Whopper burger in a more enthusiastic fashion than the rest of them. There's a Wendy's one. I think there's a Taco Bell. I don't know. There's so many of them now. And while it was. What did you think, very briefly, what did you think of this? It's kind of fascinating. It really took off the burger eating situation. It was McDonald's and Burger King and then the other Wendy's got involved. They're all in there. They're all in there. Funny. Stupid.

52:19

Well, what no one wanted to talk about was there was a CEO of McDonald's who I think died of colorectal cancer in his late 40s. Oh, gosh. I don't. Yeah, that's a real Pick me up. Wow.

53:37

Thanks, Scott.

53:50

Yeah. I don't know why I brought that up. I don't know. I could not be less interested in the story. Other than to say that. Other than to say that, as I'm sure you are. I've been talking to all these presidents, presidential candidates who call me for ideas, which is their way of saying, send me money. I'm like, negotiate. Buy a billion doses of a GLP1 drug.

53:52

Yeah. Actually, these businesses are under siege. You're absolutely right.

54:12

Distribute it to rural communities if you want to solve the deficit. All roads lead to healthcare. If we want to reduce healthcare costs, all roads, in my opinion, lead to GLP1. And that the best investment we could make, I think fast food, by the way. I got to be honest. I look forward. The only thing I like about travel is if I'm at an airport, I grant myself the luxury of eating McDonald's. I have a general rule. I don't eat fast food or go to strip bars in cities I live in because that could just go bad places. So. But when I'm at the airport, the McDonald's in Newark is the best McDonald's in the world. Yeah.

54:15

You like In N Out too? And Shake Shack.

54:50

Oh, that's not even fast food. That's the best meal in the world. It is.

54:52

You're right.

54:56

That's literally the best meal in the world.

54:56

Well, then let me get on this. We're on food chains, RFK Jr. Question. What's in Dunkin Donuts products in Massachusetts is not having it. Governor Maura Healy posted an image with a Dunkin cup saying, come and take it. Others are having fun with the jab on social media, saying things like, if this administration changes anything that goes into Duncan, I will make January 6th look like a tea party. You know, it's interesting. They're going after brands like, well, RFK is another moron. It's interesting because remember when Bloomberg did this with the Coke with the sugar? It wasn't good. It wasn't a good minute for him.

54:57

No. The Big Gulp.

55:28

What do you think about this? I think Duncan is not a good thing to go after. I feel like people really like that. Dunkin Donuts. They really do. And they know. They know it's full of sugar.

55:31

They're aware America runs on Duncan. Cara. Look, I think people have the right to kill themselves. And if they want to do it slowly with McDonald's and Dunkin, that's kind of their opportunity. I think the government has an obligation to go the other way. And provide more education. 70% of Americans are obese or overweight. It's like 38% are obese. In Japan, it's 4%. And it starts very early. They have. Every public school has to have a nutritionist, and they are not allowed to have any processed food. And everything has to be made fresh in the morning.

55:40

Same thing in Korea. There's a whole scene in my documentary with me in a Korean school eating their food. It's astonishing.

56:10

When they're. And you asked these kids what their favorite food is, they're like broccoli.

56:16

Yes. No, they were like, oh, this kimchi here, it was a fermented food. It was miso soup. It was rice. Certainly. It was. It was so good. It was so healthy. It was crazy.

56:20

And they end up paying 6,000 or $7,000 per consumer on healthcare. And we pay 13,000. Folks. Let's do the math. So I don't like demonizing. Like, I like McDonald's. I like Dunkin Donuts. I like to think that because of education, early on I got some. You know, you're fully aware on eating the right foods. Also, the reality is fast food is a function of poverty, and that is. Or going back to the same income inequality, and that is if you're a single mother, the cheapest caloric intake is fast food. And people want to get moral and lecture people about the importance of cooking at home and cooking with good food. Actually, the myth is that cooking at home saves you money. No, it's not. To cook at home with natural ingredients is really expensive.

56:30

It is. And also time. A lot of people have two jobs or food deserts.

57:15

But again, I'm. I've said this before. I think the most transformative technology over the next 5 or 10 years is not AI. I think it's GLP1. But love McDonald's. Think people should have the right to kill themselves fast or slow if they want. But I think a really good investment would be giving people enough money and enough education such that they want to and can afford to eat well.

57:21

Yeah. But I have to say I wouldn't go up against Maura Healey if I were you. Rfk. She's a tough nut. She was a big basketball player. I don't know if you know that. She was a very good one. Anyway, we'll see what she did to our event, right? She did, yeah. She's great. I love her.

57:41

And we met her wife.

57:55

Yes. Anyway, we'll see where it goes. But it's really interesting that these, These. I have to say, some of the brands on social media are really interesting and some of them are better than others. Wendy's does an amazing job, for example, online.

57:56

Well, you know what Peter Pan's favorite place to eat out is?

58:09

Where? Where is it?

58:12

Wendy's.

58:13

I can't believe you have a dirty joke about Wendy's.

58:16

Oh.

58:19

Oh, God. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments.

58:20

But that's weird. Okay, one judgment.

58:42

Anyway. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com

58:46

so everyone knows our politics are divided. There's left versus right and dividing lines on age, gender or race. But maybe our biggest divide in our politics isn't about identity at all. It's insiders versus outsiders. At least that's what Congressman Ro Khanna would say. The real issue is two tiers of justice in America. The real issue is people with power and wealth using it to be above the law and escape even investigation or prosecution. And it's only gotten more noticeable in recent months as issues like the Epstein files and artificial intelligence have seemed to pit the elites against everybody else. California Congressman Ro Khanna takes on the Epstein class today. Explain in your feed every weekday. And now on Saturdays, too. Are Democrats their own biggest problem? You know, a party becomes defined by who their central figure, who their quarterback becomes. Democrats haven't really anointed a effective quarterback since that's Barack Obama pretty much. And this week, the Atlantic staff writer Mark Leibovich joins me to discuss the state of the Democratic Party and which races to keep an eye out for this midterm election. The episode is out now. Search and follow Stay tuned with Preet

59:02

wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction. I have something very quickly to say in the prediction department for people who didn't notice. There was a story again on bots about problems with wrongful deaths and suicides. This time it's Google with Gemini. AI Chatbot coached a man towards suicide. And it is. The story is devastating. This is an adult, not a young person, not someone underage. But it's still just as devastating what it did and what it told him to do, and it made him go to places and look for things in order to find a robot to put this digital girlfriend into. I have to say I predict some really significant legislation around this in a way that is probably going to be too reactive and at the same time necessary because of the way these companies are conducting their chatbots that interact with people on a personal level and they have done nothing to rein them in. And so I think there's going to be a flood of things around how we interact with technology that's going to be bipartisan and pretty ugly for the tech companies.

1:00:20

Yeah. And I didn't mean to make light of fast food. There was that mass shooting at a fast food restaurant where the guy was screaming, you've ordered your last McRib. And then one of the workers said, sir, this is a Wendy's. Oh my God, that's so wrong, Cara.

1:01:34

It's so wrong.

1:01:47

That's so wrong.

1:01:48

Anyway, what's your prediction?

1:01:49

I want to take some license here. And I wanted to talk, I wanted to do kind of a. A fail in a win. And that is, I just, I watched. I'm one of my living heroes is Madame Secretary Clinton. Yeah. It's the only person I've ever canvassed for. And when I saw, I watched her entire testimony, I just thought the level of sexism was so fucking insane. And that is so first off, when is the last time a man was asked repeatedly to explain his wife's behavior or action? And the absurdity of holding wives accountable for husbands. And here's what's so incredibly fucked up about this. We live in a world.

1:01:51

I think they oughta responsible for you. So go ahead.

1:02:42

We live in a world where a woman with her own 50 year career in public service, senator, Secretary of state, presidential candidate, gets hauled in front of a committee and asked to explain what her husband did, not what you did, what he did. And also there's this implicit assumption that like. And why didn't you, you stop him. And we've seen the same bullshit for decades. When a powerful man does something wrong, we turn to his wife and ask, where were you? Why didn't you know? Why didn't you leave him? Why are you still with him? And we never ask the inverse. When a woman in power screws up, we don't haul her husband in and ask him to explain her choices. We don't demand he account for her behavior. We don't ask, why did you stay with her? Because implicit in all this is this

1:02:45

well, we do ask that, but go ahead.

1:03:31

Implicit in all this is this assumption that men are autonomous agents responsible for their own actions, which is right. Whereas women are responsible for everyone's actions, including their husbands. The double standard is staggering. If Hillary had left Bill after the Lewinsky scandal, she'd have been called a calculating opportunist who abandoned him and that it was politically convenient. If she stays with him, she's complicit in everything he's ever done. So I just think it's insane that they kept asking her questions when he was testifying the next day. Well, ask him.

1:03:34

She handled it beautifully.

1:04:11

Yeah, I agree. So now, just to piss off the Brooklyn Sandaled or Birkenstock crowd on the other side, there is absolutely a double standard for women when it comes to asking them to explain obvious discretions or conflicts of interest. Watching the exchange, basically saying, are you having sex with. Are you in an extramarital? And I'm going to be clear, I'm not judging them on having an extramarital affair or having sex. When you're having a relationship with your number two, who is unqualified, that is reason to be fired at any organization, any corporation, much less a cabinet position. And what the exchange reminded me of was how selectively we apply accountability in politics. And as someone who considers them a feminist, that means you're subject to the same opportunities and also you're entitled to the same amount of shit as everybody else. And when male politicians face questions about personal conduct, the expectation is clear, answer the fucking question. And when they dodge the press and the opposition usually press hard until they either deny it or outright, until they deny it or admit it, that's Shoni Gonzalez. Evasion becomes the story. But when a woman Secretary Noem respond to a direct question about a relationship, calling it total garbage and declining to actually say no, the moment largely passed. Without the same relentless follow up, it will float away because of this double standard of being accused of slut shaming. This is sexism. The other way. If a male cabinet secretary responded that way to a similar question, the headlines would read refuses to deny and the questioning wouldn't stop. So there is sexism asking women to take responsibility for their husbands. But at the same time, there was a double standard and a lack of accountability amongst women for the same types of things where the press and other lawmakers would not let up. Up. God, I'm so preachy today.

1:04:12

I know. I, I think lawmakers did, did not let up. I think they said it, it's over.

1:06:11

It's done.

1:06:16

They are not. They are doing their job. They did ask, and they asked several times.

1:06:17

They, yeah, if this had been Bill Clinton or another man, it would be, it would be ongoing until they clarified their comments.

1:06:20

I'm going to say you're right about the media. I say, I think they, they asked as hard as they could and she just refused.

1:06:29

She went, I see. I think, I think they should have said the following. And it's easy to pick anyone to correct. I think one of them should have said, said, you are having an inappropriate relationship with your number two, who is unqualified, and this puts the nation at risk. I would have backed her into a fucking corner.

1:06:35

That's fair. They could have done it a different way. You're right.

1:06:49

So I'll move on. Okay, real quick. My prediction is no. And that is Dario Emoti has given license and permission to CEOs to say no. And in the next 30 days, you are going to see be a raft of CEOs find their testicles and start saying no to this administration.

1:06:52

No. There's gonna be a lot of that. I agree with you 100%. Okay. Well, speaking of yes, we will be in Minnesota, everybody. Just so you know, we're gonna be there on Sunday night and we are very excited and we're very excited to do the show. It'll be a pivot show. And at the same time, we're gonna talk a lot about resist and unsubscribe. And Scott's got some tricks up his sleeve. We've got some special guests. Secret guests were sold out. So it's not like we're selling it, but we're very excited to do it and raise money for a legal organization that helps immigrants there. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your question about business, tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe, this week on Prof. G Markets, Scott spoke with Big Short legs legend Steve Eisman about why he thinks the war in Iran is unlikely to rattle markets and why the bigger risk investors should be watching again is AI. Let's listen to a clip.

1:07:12

Everything that's being created by people who are doing AI has value. The question is how much value so much money is being spent. Are the returns that these companies are going to generate, are they going to justify those returns, returns? I suspect not. If I had to stake my life on it, I'd say we'd have some kind of replay where in the Internet bubble, the first generation of Internet companies basically failed. And it was the second generation of Internet companies that took us on to glory in terms of the value of the Internet.

1:08:09

Very good. Very sensible. That makes sense. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week with an episode, as I said, taped live in Minneapolis. Scott I can't believe we did it. I mean, we just thought about it on the show and then we made it to.

1:08:46

Yeah, I had an idea and it's happened.

1:09:02

And again, thank you to all our staff for helping us here and of course to Tain Danger in Minneapolis, who's been really amazing. We're very excited to come. We're gonna have a hooped up show and have a lot of fun with people in Minnesota. They deserve all the fun they can get. Scott but you have to read us out on social media.

1:09:04

Oh, thanks. Yeah. Where am I? Where am I? Reheat my soup. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus and Taylor Griffin, Ernie and her Todd engineer this episode. Manola Moreno edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Burroughs, Mia Sivero and Dan Shalon Nishark Khuras, Vox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine@nymag.com pod we'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Three words. First word. Mini. Second app. Third Alice.

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