157. When Will Trump Stop Protecting The “Epstein Class”?

Welcome to the Rest is Politics US with me, Anthony Scaramucci. So, so good to have you back, Anthony. We missed you this week. Caddy, I'm impervious to your charms. Let's go to the running order, Caddy. I'm in charge today. It's hard to believe that you guys are letting me off the dog chain, but here I am. We're going to talk about the latest Epstein files. And we're going to talk about Howard Lutnick, who I believe deserves the father of the year award. The same way Trump got the FIFA Peace Prize. We'll discuss why Howard, after bringing his kids to pedophilia island, deserves father of the year. And then we're going to talk about the Irishman who was held unconstitutionally and these ICE hearings. And it's just incredible situation going on in the United States. But why don't we start with the Epstein files? Bring us up to date with where we are right now, as some of these names have been unredacted. Okay, Anthony. So the latest on Epstein is that we have about 70% to 80% of the files that have been released are still redacted. We have members of Congress pushing for more of these files to be released and more of them to be unredacted. You've got Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna saying that the DOJ is in blatant violation of the Epstein Transparency Act. That was the act that said that the DOJ had to release these files. Members of Congress have had to go to a special room in the DOJ to actually look through the files. They spent a couple of hours there. They said it's like looking for a needle in a haystack, however, because there are so many of these documents. But some things have emerged this week. and the kind of key headline of the week is that Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary, has been really in the hot seat. Your father of the year had said in a podcast back in 2025 that he had met Epstein once and he was so appalled, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, by what I saw that I immediately did a run. I never wanted to have anything to do with him again. Here is what he said back in 2025. He opens the doors and there's a massage table in the middle of the room and candles all around and stuff. So I ask very insightful, cutting questions. I say to him, massage table in the middle of your house? how often you have a massage and he says every day and then he like gets like weirdly close to me and he says and the right kind of massage now my wife is standing here so she looks at me and I look at her and we say, I'm sorry, we have to go. And we left. And in the six or eight steps it takes to get from his house to my house, my wife and I decided that I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again. So I was never in the room with him socially, for business or even philanthropy. If that guy was there, I wasn't going because he's gross. The problem for Howard Lutnick, Anthony, is that the Epstein files, heavily redacted though they are, do tell us something. And one of the things they tell us is that Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary, is lying. He actually did carry on having a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein after that visit where he was so appalled. And in 2012, a full four years after Jeffrey Epstein was convicted of soliciting prostitution from a child, Howard Lutnick thought it would be a great idea to go and visit Jeffrey Epstein on his island. Yesterday, he was hauled before Congress for a separate hearing, but Democratic senators made sure that they asked him about that visit. Here's what he said yesterday. I think you understand the root of concern here. It's the way you described very emphatically your first encounter with him in his apartment, said you were disgusted, would never have any contact with him again. Did you, in fact, make the visit to Jeffrey Epstein's private island? I did have lunch with him as I was on a boat going across on a family vacation. My wife was with me, as were my four children and nannies. I had another couple with they were there as well with their children. And we had lunch on the island. That is true for an hour. And we left with all of my children, with my nannies and my wife all together. We were on family vacation. We were not apart to suggest there was anything untoward about that in 2012. Well, I don't recall why we did it, but we did it. Mr. Secretary, again, I... Okay, so your Father of the Year award goes to Mr. Lutnick, who at least, I suppose, took his children back from the island and all his nannies. I mean, what's he doing traveling with lots of nannies anyway? But luckily, he rescued all of the nannies, which actually is no mean feat, because it turns out that at some point, Jeffrey Epstein also wanted an introduction to one of his nannies. I don't know if it was one of the nannies who went for lunch, but it might have been in any way if Jeffrey Epstein had ever asked for an introduction to anyone in your family, you probably would have said no. So what is it with Howard Lutnick? He has this unbelievable capacity to express moral indignation. I was appalled, Anthony, by what I saw. I was so disgusted that I never wanted to go back again, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. But then he does go back. So what do you make of it? I mean, he's managed to accomplish something that very few politicians can accomplish in like one minute, right? He's got the unholy trinity of mandacity, lack of self-awareness, and amorality. And so the guy is just out of control. And then he's so tone deaf catty, okay? And yes, we are more bougie. We're more outwardly bougie here in the States. But let me talk to and appeal to your British side for a moment. how do you think it went down in the uk or the united i see you're giggling already and i i know exactly where you're going say say what i'm gonna say go ahead i wasn't there with my nanny i was there with my nannies right exactly are you had to drop that in there you stew nod are you kidding me are you really this lack of self-awareness and this general stupidity okay but he has really damaged himself. And so I want to talk about the four ways he's damaged himself. Okay. Number one, I think we're going to stipulate for this show that he has credibility damage. Who the hell is going to believe him in any situation after that performance? Okay. And after that level of mendacity, number two, okay. When a cabinet official survives a scandal like this, guess what happens? the opposition pokes the bear pokes the bear and every day that he's standing around near donald trump people are going to say so when you lied in 2000 and this and 2000 and that are you lying to us now are you lying to the american people about the statements you're making on behalf of the president of the administration he has in my opinion vetting and disclosure risk now explain saying that so when you don't disclose your contacts during a confirmation and you lie the way let Nick did right remember he has to be senate confirmed for the job and so you have testimony before the senate and you got your hand up and you're saying stuff to the senators where you swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth but now you've been proven to be a full on liar, questions are going to come out of the woodwork. If the Republicans lose the House, we would like to subpoena Mr. Lutnick. We would? Okay, great. Where were all your business entanglements? This is what you said on the record under oath. And by the way, since we have unlimited powers of the purse, we fired 15 private investigators and this is what we dug up. And so this is what you said to us when you were getting confirmed, and this is what really happened. He's got a big problem here. There's nobody that can actually survive this. He likely will survive it because Trump can't fire him. I'm going to tell you why. Because Lutnick is such a loose cannon and a weirdo, he's got the dirt on Trump. He could pull the metaphorical suicide vest on the way out and take Trump out with him. There's a reason why Bannon got the pardon, Caddy Caddy. You know why Bannon got the pardon? Because Bannon had the goods on Trump and the nefarious activity that was going on during the campaign. And so Trump went to Bannon, you're not going to squeal on me, right? Well, I'm not going to squeal on you if you pardon me. They pardoned him. Caddy, this is my opinion. Wink, wink, Caddy. It's my opinion. Okay. Because I have to say that shit, but this is my opinion. So he's in a situation now because he's got these nefarious people around him and he too is also nefarious. He can't jettison Lutnik. And so Lutnik is now either got to leave on his own reconnaissance. He's too stupid to do that. And Massey said it better than everybody, Massey said, hey, if you want to serve the president, it's in the best interest of the president that you leave the job. Thomas Massey, the Republican congressman, who has been actually right out in the forefront of calling for these files to be released. But let me tell you what else is going on, because you know Washington, okay? Washington is generally a conformist clique of people. And what Washington generally does not like, They're tolerating it from Donald Trump because he's Donald Trump. But Washington hates, Katty, hates unpredictability. And Washington is looking at this guy saying oof there blackmail risk here There national security perception risk Okay what else will surface There anxiety You got these senators and these members of the House of Representatives going to go into very tight races as members of MAGA. And they're going to always have this guy's head bobbing underneath the surface, which could have a big impact on them. Yeah, I think you're right that there is a level of anxiety and you see it in people like Senator Cynthia Loomis of Wyoming, Republican senator, who has now come out publicly and said that she has changed her mind on the Epstein files and that actually lawmakers who have pushed for the release of the files were not wrong. Now, what she says is that she had initially thought this was a kind of nothing burger and a distraction. And then she saw in the files evidence that a nine-year-old girl had been abused by Jeffrey Epstein, and that made her change her mind. I don't know, Senator Loomis, why a 14-year-old girl doesn't make you think that this is bad enough and that somehow they have to be nine for you to actually pay attention. Maybe she's talking to Megyn Kelly. I remember what Megyn Kelly said. Oh, well, these girls were just underage. It's not that big of a deal. Not technically pedophilia? Only just underage. Yeah. And so nine years old, that's clearly the cutoff point for Senator Loomis, who has now taken the off ramp. But it feels like in Washington every day, you get more Republicans drip by drip looking at that off ramp and saying, okay, this is enough. I have to push for the unredaction of these files. We need to have more of these files released. And the cynic in me wants to say they're also looking at the president's poll numbers. They're looking at the special elections that the Democrats have been winning around the country. And they realize that Donald Trump is not as omnipotent as they thought he was, and that they want to make sure that they are on the right side of this for their constituents. Because you've got Republican members of Congress and Democratic members of Congress coming to Washington from their breaks and saying, you know what? People are still talking about this. Our constituents are still asking about this. So whether it's because of political expediency, whether it's because they suddenly realize, you know, that Donald Trump is not as powerful as he seemed to be, they're feeling that they can counter him now. But you know how we've been recording this series for our founding members? If you would like to listen to it, you can sign up. But the rest is politicsus.com on Donald Trump and Donald Trump's background. And it's pretty clear from Donald Trump's background that he can get away with lying. Right. I mean, he did it when he was in business. You and I have seen it all through his building and he's done it in politics as well. But I don't think Howard Lutnick is Donald Trump. So for Howard Lutnick to lie this, obviously, and okay, he was on a podcast. He wasn't under oath. But there's something about the tone of that first clip we just played, everybody. There's something about the kind of almost performative moral indignation. If you're going to get up on your high horse and your horse is that, that, that high and You're going to put yourself right up there. And then it turns out you were lying. I think somehow that makes it harder for him. Maybe he survives this. You're right, because Donald Trump doesn't want media to have a win. And you've got to own the libs constantly. And you've got to make sure that nobody gets fired because that would be somehow giving in. But I think you're right that whether he stays in office or not, he's effectively, as a political, a viable political person, his credibility is short. because it's going to just be a presumption now that he's lying. So don't forget, Gaddy, if he goes and he gets fired, if he leaves on his own volition, it's slightly different. But if he gets fired, it energizes the Democrats. The Democrats are going to fundraise off of that. Oh, I think they'll fundraise off it. And you can see these ads writing themselves. All you have to do is play those two clips. The Democrats are going to fundraise off this. But what they could also get from this is a period of back-footed insecurity by the Republicans. This could really put them in an unstable position going into the midterms. But the last but not least, this would force Trump to answer deeper questions about this. And if I were Ro Khanna, maybe not Tom Massey, but if I'm Ro Khanna, I'm digging into those files. I want to know. I want to get as much unredacted stuff. There was a report that 38,000 times Trump showed up in the redacted files. Okay, there's a suggestion by somebody today that he's in the Epstein files over 1 million times. That was from Jamie Raskin, the top House Democrat, who said that when he searched the name Trump in the files, it came up more than a million times. Yeah. So to me, I think that he's going to be dangling out there. And I think Howard, Mr. Buttlick himself, I think he is too. I knew you were going to do it. I knew you were going to go. What do you mean? I mean, we didn't say nut lick because that's inappropriate. We're calling him butt lick. That's like more appropriate, right? I mean, but this guy is really a piece of work and he's going to sit there and act like it didn't happen and pray that it blows over. But this will not blow over, Katty. Some things do blow over. Like Keir Starmer, I'm not the expert. You're better at the UK politics than me. But Keir Starmer has appealed to his base. He's appealed to the people in the coalition. and they sort of looking at him saying, you know, he didn't really do any that. But poor judgment maybe in picking Mandelson, didn't understand the full extent of what Mandelson was doing. Never actually met Epstein. Right, never met Epstein. They're probably going to give him a break. Okay, but not this. This is too close to home. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I keep getting asked about it. I'm on American television regularly and I keep getting asked about this comparison. Why is it that in Europe people are being held accountable in the UK and in Norway as well? And in the US so far, there is no accountability and people feel that they could act with impunity around this issue. And they're right. Well, what's the answer to that, Gatti? Is it that Starmer was weak anyway politically and the parliamentary system means that there are a lot of people wanting Starmer's job and they all think they can vie for it? Here, if you get rid of the top guy, you're not going to get his job. And so there's much less of pushover. It's Donald Trump has much more of a grip over the Republican Party than Starmer has over the Labour Party. I don't know that it's that there is massively more moral superiority in the UK than there is in the US, but the systems as they are at the moment with a weaker leader in the UK and a dominant leader here in the US seem to make it that people not just in politics, by the way. I mean, there are the titans of Silicon Valley, who basically are the most powerful people in the world. And somebody like Bill Gates, very friendly with the Democrats, who the Democrats love. He's mentioned many times in the Epstein files, not in a favorable light at all. Doesn't mean he committed a crime, but he certainly doesn't come out of it looking very good. Hill and Hillary Clinton, they've been subpoenaed. They are going to testify. And actually, Democrats are seeing that as kind of a win because if Hillary and Bill Clinton testify, that will set the precedent if Democrats win the midterm elections for more investigations and more testimony. I mean, it's possible that if Democrats win back the House of Representatives, then you could see more investigations and more testimony and more people taking the hit for this. I think one thing that's happened is that in this awful polarized tribal world we live in, each party has protected their own. And I think that's the awful thing about this whole story. No one was protecting the victims. No one was putting the victims first. They were putting their political tribe first. So Democrats were worried, if we do too much about the Epstein files, what's that going to do to Bill and Hillary Clinton? What's it going to do to Bill Gates, who we see as one of ours? We see him as a good guy. Republicans were worried about what's it going to do to Donald Trump? Now what's it going to do to Howard Lutnick? And the polarization means that people are more interested in protecting their political tribe than they are in protecting these girls. But hopefully, there are enough bold members of Congress and congratulations to Ro Khanna, Democrat, and Thomas Massey, Republican, who have worked together tirelessly to get as many of these files released as we have done so far. So kudos to them, right, for working together. Before we switch to the other topic, I want to ask this question, because, you know, we talk about incentives being one thing, but there's also process and the respect for process. And there's also civil servants or whatever you'd call them in the United Kingdom that are in the permanent government. You know, the joke in the 1950s was that the deep state called the president the Christmas help, you know, because he was so temporary and they were there forever, right? This is my interpretation. It's sort of a leading question, but I want to ask it. The process seems to be respected still in Europe and especially in the United Kingdom. It's certainly respected in Australia. But I feel like Trump's power over his party has caused us to lose a grip on our process because under normal processes, lots of these people would be gone, including potentially the president. I think you're onto something there, that the process is holding better. There is still more of a sense of shame. And maybe also in these social democracies, there is more of a social contract that suggests that people who are paid for by the state, politicians, civil servants, ambassadors, members of the royal family, owe something back to the people. that they are there by the grace and favor of the public. And therefore, if they fiddle their expenses, if they behave egregiously, if they make too much money, for example, they can quickly fall out of favor with the public in a way that the social contract in America has always been different. There isn't that outcry when the government or government employees do something nefarious in the same way that there is in the UK where people take it very personally. And I think that's also true of those Northern European social democracies as well. So the social contract has been breached by the Epstein scandal in a way that the public feels they have a right to demand that these people step down And I think here there a sense of helplessness that lots of people would like some of these guys to be held accountable because they see as you said on the podcast, Anthony, they see the rich and powerful have one set of rules and the powerless have another set of rules and nobody is being held to account. And I think as you so smartly pointed out the other week, that's the problem. And that's the irony, they hiring a populist to prevent that. Right. Just have one last question. Howard Lutnick, Secretary Lutnick. Father of the year. Father of the year. He's lasted 35.1 Scaramucci's. Now, unless you throw me off the podcast like you did on Monday and we're back next week, is he going to be the Secretary of Commerce? He's going to be the Secretary of Commerce next week. What about in four weeks, Katty Kay? Is he going to be the Secretary of Commerce? I think that Donald Trump will hope this dies down. It's the muzzle velocity theory that we also saw when we've been recording our podcast series on Donald Trump. When there is a controversy, you distract, you flood the zone, you bring up other stories. I think we're going to see more of that because he doesn't want to see one of his guys sacrificed. So barring any more facts, this will stick around, right? Yes, this sticks around. And it doesn't go and people will still demand accountability. And they're not sure they're going to get it. Anything happen to Trump? I don't know. I think at the moment there is no smoking gun. And it depends how much more is released and how much more is redacted and what is in there that either suggests that Donald Trump. I mean, the really interesting story about Epstein is did he have a pedophile ring? Did he traffic these girls out to other people? And my understanding, having spoken to a couple of legal experts who've gone through the file so far, is that there's no evidence of that at the moment. There is this story going around that Trump called the chief of police down in southern Florida and said there's something really bad going on with this guy. The White House is trying to spin that as Trump saying, look, he tried to do the right thing and contacted the police. And the chief of police has come out and said he remembers having that conversation. I don't know that anything happens to Trump, but I think the longer they stall on redacting the names of the men who are complicit, the story doesn't go away because American voters still think that he's involved. 52% of Americans say Trump is trying to cover up Epstein's crimes and overwhelming majority say they want the files released. Do you think it's significant that the Senate majority leader, Senator John Thune, said yesterday that he wants the full transparency? Let's have the full transparency. Is that significant or is that just a throwaway line? I think it is significant. I think it's a little bit like Loomis when I said that you're having a drip drip of Republicans looking at the off ramps. They've sailed past a whole load of them and they are now deciding to put themselves in the position where they are at crosshairs with Donald Trump over this. Thune has been very careful. I've known Thune for years. You've known Thune for years. He comes across as a moderate, decent, upstanding Republican. If you want to be Senate majority leader under Donald Trump, you've got to make some compromises. And he's sure made some compromises. But it's interesting to hear him just in the last couple of weeks, he said a couple of things that have made him crosshairs with Donald Trump. He objected to the release of that video portraying the Obamas as apes. He said that was wrong and there should be an apology. It should be taken down. He's now standing up and saying, let's have transparency on the Epstein file. So he's hearing it. He's not doing this for nothing. He's hearing it from his members, the Senate body, and he's hearing it from his constituents. So I do think when Thune says something like that, it's worth listening to, don't you? I think that that is important. I think it's hugely significant. And I think it's a message that, hey, man, don't bring me down with your nonsense. You know, I got to get my team over the line with the midterms coming up. We're recording this Wednesday morning. Pam Bondi, the head of DOJ, is going to testify in front of the House Judiciary Committee today. She's obviously going to be asked questions about the Epstein file. So it's going to be interesting to hear how she answers those specifically on this issue of why so many men's names are redacted and whether they're going to unredact some of those names. Also, she'll be asked about why they didn't redact some of the names and faces of some of the victims of Jeffrey Epstein. She's going to be asked about that as well. But she's also going to be asked about ICE shootings in Minnesota. And I think there have been a couple of hearings this week and a couple of things have happened this week that have put the whole ICE story back in the center of American politics. So we're going to catch you up on all of that. But first, let's go to a break. 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This deal is exclusive to listeners, so order yours now to get it in time for Mother's Day. Don't forget to add Politics US at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. and digging into all the stories behind them. And we are going to be talking about the historical contexts behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time. We're going to be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unravelling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story. Now, you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we hope that by the end of each episode, you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them. That is the key thing. And either way, whether you read them or not, we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating facts. You'll do lots of great stories and maybe, Tabby, the odd laugh. We will be looking at thrilling Gothic bodice rippers like Wuthering Heights and Frankenstein, as well as iconic stories like The Great Gatsby or Little Women. And then also some more modern stuff. So Game of Thrones, Normal People, The Hunger Games, Hamnet, all manner of exciting stories. So please join us on our journey into all things books, wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for The Book Club every Tuesday and hopefully we will see you there. Welcome back. The rest is Politics US. We're going to talk about ICE and whether ICE is actually pulling back, but we want to start with a story that is catching global attention and I think needs more attention here in the US too. It's the story of an Irishman, an Irish citizen who is being held in an ICE jail, has been held for four and a half months despite having a work permit. It's Seamus Coulton. He's been held in Texas for almost five months and he's now done an interview with an Irish broadcast station in which he says that the conditions that he's being held in are incredibly harsh. They're not getting enough food. He's hardly been outside and seen daylight in five months. The family has decided to come public with this now and for him to do this interview to try and make sure that his case is heard and that the Irish authorities try and push the White House for his release. And it's worth stressing that he came to America, overstayed his initial tourist visa, married an American citizen. And when he married the American citizen, he got a valid work permit. He doesn't have a criminal record and he is pursuing a green card. And in October, after he was detained, he was meant to have his final interview for the green card. So this is a guy who is in the process legally and doing everything by the book, but has now been hauled up into an ice facility for five months. And he is describing it as psychological and physical torture. Let's play you a quick clip of Seamus Coulton on Irish radio. The best way I could describe it is probably like a modern day concentration camp. it's a bunch of temporary tents there's probably room for a thousand detainees in each tent I believe there's like five tents I've been locked in the same room now for four and a half months I've had barely any outside time no fresh air, no sunshine I could probably count on both hands the amount of times I've been outside so just locked in this room all day, every day so caddy you have left out the elephant in the room so what is the elephant in the room he's white caddy k he's blanco the blanco okay and these guys are on tape uh saying well i don't like your accent if it sounds like a hispanic accent i don't like your skin color these guys are on tape in their masks okay aggressively glowing after brown and black people trust me when this surfaces Donald Trump, he's going to look at the guy and say, this guy's white. What the hell are you guys doing? And that's the facts. Now we can skirt around them and we pretend that's not happening, but it is happening. And I wondering out loud because this did happen in New York City We had these search and seizure things going on in new york where you know the the government took the position that if they stopped you in your car uh they could they get you out of the car and pat you down to see if you had a gun you know this was uh something that's very controversial mayor de blasio uh banned it once he came into office but at the end of the bloomberg administration they were searching a lot more white people than they were at the beginning of the Bloomberg administration to try to show that it was more arbitrary and random as opposed to it being racially profiled. But here we go, Caddy. Okay. And he will likely get released. And the Irish government will likely make an appeal on his behalf, and it'll likely be accepted. That'll be threading the needle or getting the camel through the eye of the needle for that family with this sort of administration. So, you know, I don't understand how it benefits the country. So do your best, Caddy. Get your, you know, MAGA. Let's not use a MAGA accent because that'll really be on the ground. I'll need CPR. But do your best and explain to me how this sort of stuff is helping the country. Well, what's interesting is that we did this week, it's been hearing central up on Capitol Hill this week, because we did have the ICE bosses and the head of the Border Patrol were up on Capitol Hill this week. They were being hauled in for hearings and they were being accused of having blood on their hands because people have been killed, as we've reported. One Democrat member of Congress said, you know, if you don't want to be called a fascist regime or secret, please stop acting like one. But you should have heard, Anthony, the reaction from Todd Lyons, who's the acting director of ICE, and Rodney Scott, who's Border Patrol. They were not apologetic at all. I mean, they refused to apologize to the families of the two American citizens who've been killed in Minneapolis. They said that the people protesting ICE are paid agitators. I mean, if they went up there with any sense of contrition, I certainly didn't hear it. I thought it was a really striking hearing that they've got the Donald Trump memo. You just never back down. You never apologize. Noam is telling him Trump is listening. You're talking to an audience of one. Do not back down. He'll flip out. You'll get fired. I'll get the heat. Don't back down. Yeah. I had a really interesting conversation this morning. I interviewed Senator Chris Murphy, who has just come back actually from Texas. He was down there trying to see these detention facilities like the detention facility that Seamus Colton is in. First of all, he was not allowed in, even though he's on appropriations, which is where the money comes from to fund these operations. And he said we'd given them plenty of warning. They still didn't allow us in, which he says is illegal for a senator. But he said that there is one. He spoke to lots of people while he was down there. He said there's one jail in Texas, in Dilley, Texas, which has hundreds, not a dozen or so, but hundreds of children in it under the age of five, like that little boy, Liam, who there was the photo of. But we only saw the photo of the one little boy, right? There's actually lots of little boys like Liam who are being picked up and put into these detention facilities. He said they call it down there the baby jail because there are so many kids in these jails. He says the ICE officers are acting with total impunity. They are making up the law as they go along. So you've got he couldn't get into the facility. So he went to the courthouse where they're hearing these immigration cases. He says outside the courthouses, they've got ICE buses waiting to pick people up as they come out of their court hearings. And these are people who are going through the process legally. Right. These are the people who are turning up for their hearing when they're asked for. They've applied for asylum. They're doing everything by the book. They go in for their hearing, a bit like, you know, Seamus would have gone in for his green card hearing, or lots of people you and I know who are going through the process would go for their hearing or go for their interview. And they go in for their hearing. And what happens? They walk out of the building. They get swiped up by ice straight away. And they get put into these horrendous detention facilities. And it's worth reminding people, this is not an actual criminal offense. Coming into the United States illegally or being in the United States illegal is not a felony. It's a civil violation. It's a misdemeanor, civil misdemeanor. And yet these people are being held in conditions that are the kinds of conditions you would put the worst possible criminals in. I mean, the stories coming out of some of these detention centers of women being forced to wear diapers because they can't go to the bathroom, of there being feces on the floor, of there not being, as Seamus said, there not being nearly enough food of getting kid-sized portions of food. Look at Cato, the libertarian think tank, hardly a kind of touchy-feely hippie think tank and think tank on the right that came out with data recently showing that only 7% of the people who have been rounded up and deported have violent criminal convictions. 73% of the people rounded up have no criminal convictions. The ICE people down in Texas told Senator Murphy that they have been told to round up everybody, including legal migrants. Of course. He said it's just, it's lawless. Trump's America. And again, America first is America alone. And the walling off of America, this is now the literal walling off of America is going to have consequential damage to the country. And it's just going to slow down businesses because, you know, think of the lost tourists, the Canadian tourists in Florida, or New York City. Just think of the people that are looking around saying, you know what, I'm not going to the US anytime soon. Can I ask you a question though? Yeah. You know the business world. Up until about 10 years ago, the loudest voices in favor of immigration into the United States came from the business community because they needed the workers. We know the birth rate is declining in the US. So what are you going to do about a declining birth rate, a declining tax revenue rate at a time of growing deficits. You're going to have to expand your tax revenue base and you're going to have to expand your worker base. How do you do that? The obvious way is to bring in more people into the country, right? If you're not going to get Americans to make more babies, which is what J.D. Vance is trying to get them to do, if they can't make more babies here, you're going to have to bring them into the country. So where is the business community right now in standing up for more immigration into the States? So it's a great question. I think it's already bifurcated. They want the astrophysicists from Germany. They want the marine biology scientists from Norway. But in Trump world, they're hoping that those people will pay for it the way Nicki Minaj did. It's sort of like a Nicki Minaj Trump gold card into America. But for the rest of the people, bye-bye. That's all, folks. That's the end of the cartoon they also need the farm workers they do the construction workers and trump made a very big industry workers the service industry workers and we know you know the data is all there the proportions of people who work in those industries who are here undocumented is very high and in the past i feel like you'd have had business you'd have had farmers saying we haven't got people to come and pick our citrus crops. We haven't got people to build those data centers you're building at such high speed along Route 50 in Virginia. I mean- 100%. Why is the business community not trying to protect the unskilled workers? Because they're not replacing them with American workers. I think on the margin, now they are. On the margin, you're getting the pushback. You had the very famous Hyundai assembly line pushback. You're getting quiet pushback by different business executive saying, hey, man, we need these people. These are not jobs the American people want to do. You have willing people at these salaries that we can afford, and we want the people. And so I do think you're going to see a slow roll in the other direction, because as Trump gets past the midterms, his indifference is going to kick in. His avarice is going to go exponential, but he'll be fairly indifferent to those sorts of things. But, you know, listen, you know, anything can happen, of course, in the United States, Caddy. But I am aghast that we've got the Irish guy in the jail for four and a half months. You and I don't know about it. I know I didn't know about it. Maybe you did, but I didn't know about it. I didn't know about it. Yeah. And I'm just sitting here saying. How many more are there? Right. Exactly. Thank you very much. How many more are just like him? Caroline Levitt. Caroline, hey. Hey, how are you? Yeah, great. Yeah. How many more just like him? Okay, we're going to leave it there. Thank you so much for listening, everybody. Well, thanks for inviting me back, Caddy, because I was nervous. It was really good. Dave's free. So he's around the next few weeks. But if you could come again, like mid-March, could we get you on again then? Okay, sure. Have your agent talk to my agent. Okay. So, Caddy, in addition to doing that wonderful episode with McCluskey this week, Didn't you also do a question and answer session with him? We did. And again, had you been there, Anthony, we would have done it with you. But David and I did a great question and answer session. And it was really interesting to have him on on that because he talks about the intelligence community, morale in the intelligence community, and how the intelligence community at the moment is feeling pretty broken. All right. So listen, the Q&A was phenomenal. I will give you both that. And so if you guys want to hear it, go to the rest is politics, us.com and sign up and become founding members. Just want everybody out there to know that I have eyes on three women right now that are loving the fact that I'm jealous of David McCluskey. They're just loving it. And I can see my two producers. If you're listening to this in your car or you're hiking somewhere, I can see my two producers in great solidarity with you. okay watching me twist and turn here i don't know if that'll make the podcast but i am enjoying i am enjoying the looks on your faces we cannot do it without you well we're gonna leave it right there on that last sentence before she says something really offensive we're gonna leave it right there that i was missed i missed all right we'll see you guys next week bye guys