The House That Tyra Built

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. Hi, it's Jill Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter Podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear friend, Krista Williams. It can change you in the best way possible. Dance with the change, dance with the breakdowns. The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves. So I'm like delusionally proud of my chart. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. Mind Games, a new podcast exploring NLP, a.k.a. neurolinguistic programming. Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Curse of listeners. I know you miss me on your feed. Don't worry. We're working on a new season of Curse of coming out later this year. In the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely want to check out our new docuseries from E! Dirty Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of, and a few you didn't, like former ANTM judge Janice Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly of the long-running TV series through the untold stories of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation, shattered dreams, and resilience. Dirty Rotten Scandals, America's Next Top Model, premieres on E! on March 11th at 9 p.m. ET, 6 p.m. PT. This is appointment television you don't want to miss. For the last episode, I want to share maybe the best story I heard from the A&TM models. Stuff Magazine, that's my dream to be on the cover. The story came from Giselle Sampson, the model you've been hearing from who competed on Cycle 1. She thought being on A&TM was going to be her big break. Again, like that. Gorgeous. Zell, she is so beautifully present the whole time. On Cycle 1, the contestants did a sexy swimwear photo shoot. The photos were featured in a men's magazine called Stuff. It's no longer in print. The pictures were accompanied by a little Q&A from each of the models. I think one of the questions was, what was the craziest thing you ever done? Giselle was only 18. She hadn't done much. But there was one time she and a friend did something a little crazy to try to meet their favorite musician. I convinced my best friend to drive us to Santa Ynez, Santa Barbara area, where Michael Jackson lived. and we were going to like just knock on the gates of Neverland and just be greeted and walk in there and meet Michael Jackson. Or at least that's what they hoped would happen. This was back in 2003 when Michael Jackson was arguably the most famous person on the planet. So when they arrived at the gates of the Neverland Ranch, his sprawling 2,700 acre theme park slash home, things didn't quite pan out the way Giselle and her friend planned. When we got there, obviously, they were like, you need to turn around and go home. We spoke to the speaker box, and it was a three-hour drive, and then three hours back. So it was a six-hour round trip. So Giselle, unfortunately, did not get to meet Michael Jackson that day. Giselle shared this story with the people at Stuff Magazine, and they printed it beside her A&TM photo. Giselle was eliminated from the competition three episodes after the shoot. She had to go back home to her regular life. She was under an NDA and couldn't even talk about being on A&TM yet. She tried going back to college, but eventually had to drop out because she'd missed too much of the semester. She did, at least, still have her old job. I went back to Disney. Thank God I had a job there still. Giselle signed with a small modeling agency and waited for the gigs to start rolling in. Then, a few months later, her agency got a vague phone call from someone asking about Giselle. I received a voicemail from them and they were like, hey, give us a call back because something's weird with Michael Jackson and you need to call. So I called my manager or agent and they're like, well, some guy named Frank Tyson called here and they were looking for you and they asked for your phone number. Frank was claiming to be Michael Jackson's assistant. Now, I thought it was an agent's job to vet the calls that came in about their client. But Giselle told me she wasn't exactly signed to a premier agency. They did at least know not to give out Giselle's number to any rando claiming to be Michael Jackson's rep. Giselle thought it might be a prank, but she decided to call this Frank Tyson back. I call the number and Frank Tyson answers. But he was like, hi, hello, this is Frank. If you're wondering why Giselle is doing that voice, it's because she says Frank Tyson weirdly sounded just like Michael Jackson. He was like, we're in a session right now, but I'm going to give you a call back. And I was like, OK. So I was like, ah, and I'm like freaking out. The phone's in my hand, my Nokia at the time. And I'm sitting in biology class. This was before Giselle dropped out. And I know Giselle said she left college because she was too far behind. But I'm sure making phone calls in biology class didn't help. They call me back. I run outside and I take the call and he was like, yeah, you know, so Michael read your article. Girl, I had butterflies in my stomach and I was like, what's happening? Now, I know this story might sound made up, but it is true. Michael Jackson was trying to get in touch with Giselle, which is wild. Apparently, Michael Jackson was a fan of that men's magazine stuff. He'd seen Giselle's ANTM photo and read her story about driving six hours to try to meet him at his Neverland ranch. He was like, he feels bad that, you know, didn't make it to Neverland, so he'd like to invite you and whoever you'd like to bring with you. You could bring one person to come back up to Neverland. She couldn't believe it. Giselle had wanted to meet Michael Jackson since she was a kid. A few weeks later, she got all dressed up and headed to the Neverland Ranch. She brought the friend she'd originally driven up there with. They pulled into the driveway and talked to someone through that little speaker box. But this time, the gates opened. It was surreal. We went up there. We did the Ferris wheel, the rides. We fed giraffes. We saw a tiger. He named his little baby Tiger Thriller. He had cousins there. We made friends with one of the cousins. He was so nice. The cousin took us around in a golf cart, and he was like, I don't normally do this, but do you want to see where he keeps all of his memorabilia? And he has a cottage all the way back, like, in the hills. Like, you have to, like, drive up into the hills. We saw the werewolf mask and Thriller jacket on a statue. We saw all of his gloves, his belts, his records, all of his awards. Oh, my gosh, that was so freaking cool. But up to that point, they hadn't seen the King of Pop himself. The cousin was like, so you haven't met my cousin then yet, huh? Then he drove them to meet Michael Jackson, who was in a theater on his property, working on an upcoming project. It was laying on the floor of his theater and there was a bunch of people. And all you could see was like the back of his hair. He was wearing his usual stuff, the white socks, the loafers, black pants. when we were sitting in the theater seats and we could hear him. Like he was like, hey, we're going to need to change this and da-da-da-da-da-da. Then he finished and he got up and we met. Michael Jackson actually came over to meet Giselle and her friend. Everybody thinks Michael's short, but he was taller. He was like, he's like six feet. And he was very nice and gracious. And he said, you know, wonderful things about saving the world. For Giselle, just meeting Michael Jackson would have been enough to make the trip worth it. But then he told her he wanted her to be involved in his next project. Michael was working on a sequel to Thriller called Threatened off of his Invincible album. He needed someone to play the love interest in his Thriller video sequel. And he thought Giselle was the perfect fit after seeing her photos in Stuff magazine. I mean, can you imagine? You're 18, fresh out of high school. Then you get cast on a new reality show. And because of your appearance on that show, Michael Jackson himself, one of the biggest stars in the world, calls you to invite you to his house and tells you he wants you to star in his next video. All of this happened in the span of a year. It was the stuff Giselle's dreams were made of. Now, if you picked up your phone to Google the threatened music video, you can put it back down. It doesn't exist. Before they could shoot the video, new allegations came out against Michael Jackson. In 2003, he was charged and later acquitted of child molestation. Soon after his acquittal, he left the country and went to Bahrain. The video shoot never happened. Giselle was bummed about the video, but she thought, surely if Michael Jackson of all people had noticed her, other big opportunities would start rolling in soon. Those calls never came. Giselle found out, after A&TM, Michael Jackson was the only person checking for her. By that point, Giselle had given up a year of her life and dropped out of school for A&TM. But the show wasn't going to be her big break or the thing that launched her modeling career. It turned out to be her curse. The show was no help to me whatsoever. Besides the whole Michael Jackson stuff, There was no help. I sent out postcards to agencies and casting directors to watch America's Next Top Model, like back in the day, like mailers. Nothing. I got nothing. Giselle didn't know it because reality TV was still new. But those agencies were never going to see her as a model. Back then, if you're a reality person, you were bottom of the barrel, piece of crap. To a teenager, getting invited to Michael Jackson's house might almost make being exploited for a TV show worth it. But these days, when Giselle looks back, she realizes the only thing she got out of being on A&TM was a cool story to tell to podcast hosts in a lifetime of trauma. Meanwhile, Tyra Banks built a multi-million dollar industry and she did it in part by exploiting the dreams of young women like Giselle. The show aired in 170 countries. Reruns are still airing to this day. Franchises around the world are still being produced and Tyra's making money on all of it. Now Giselle and a lot of other models I spoke to said they want a reckoning. this is unjust. We should be given some sort of compensation. Welcome to the curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm Bridget Armstrong. In the years since A&M aired, the contestants have grown up. So have we. and we all see the show in Tyra Banks in a different light. The contestants may not have become top models, but their lives went on. They chased new dreams and started families. But even though they moved on, there's still a part of them that can't just get over it. They accepted that not everyone was going to make it big, but what they can't accept is how they were treated by ANTM. Some of them say the show took advantage of their youth, naivete, and trauma. Some say the show caused new trauma, and they still carry those scars to this day. And ANTM's second wind on streaming services opened up new wounds. I'm sure seeing Tyra Banks become even more rich and famous didn't help either. Contestants like Giselle look at the millions of dollars they made for Tyra, Ken Mock, and the network, and they want compensation. Others want accountability, and others just want an apology from Tyra. But does Tyra Banks owe them anything at all? The answer to that question depends on how you see Tyra's role in all of this. Was Tyra the fashion industry fairy godmother she tried to portray on A&TM? Was she the ultimate reality TV villain? Or was she just another, albeit bigger, cog in the reality TV machine? Then there's the matter of us, the audience. The people who watch this show season after season. Do we have any fault? Are we complicit? On this last episode of The Curse of America's Next Top Model, we're going to explore ANTM's legacy from the model's perspective and from ours. We've been talking all season about the dubious things that happened behind the scenes on ANTM. We've looked at the manipulation, exploitation, and humiliation that took place to achieve the drama and storyline and the effect it had on the contestants. But a lot of that conversation has been framed as what ANTM as an entity did, or what producers did. And it's true. A&TM was a big production. Tyra wasn't the only one in charge. She was, of course, there for most of it and participated in a lot of it. But she has some plausible deniability for a lot of the stuff we've talked about. That's why I want to look at a part of the show Tyra took full credit for. Okay, so I recycled of America's Next Top Model. I line the girls up, line all the pictures up, and I go one by one and try to decide what would be the best makeover to make them edgy, take them, you know, over the edge. I'm talking about the A&TM makeovers, or as they eventually became known as, the tie-overs, as in Tyra's makeovers. Those episodes are my favorite and inevitably the most dramatic. Every season, Tyra would take some poor, unsuspecting pageant girl with big, long hair and give her a pixie cut that would induce a full-on meltdown. It was truly the best thing on television. Half of the time, those girls were forced to do a big chop and eliminated soon after. A handful were eliminated the same day, sometimes at the salon. There are some who say the lace-front beard she gave a male contestant on Cycle 21 is enough to put her in the Villain Hall of Fame. I didn't even know they made fake beards until I saw that episode. But the makeovers weren't always just about hair. On Cycle 6, Tyra famously encouraged that season's winner, Dani Evans, to get the gap in her teeth closed. So, Danielle, you went to the dentist, but you refused to have your gap closed. Do you really think you can have a covergirl contract with the gap in your mouth? Yes, why not? This is all people say. It's easy-reads, beautiful covergirl. It's not marketable. Yeah, just a little bit of okay, but I don't want to completely close it. Well, I guess she just left the gap wide open for another girl, baby. I agree. Thank God she said no. In the years since, Dani said she refused to get her gap closed because she felt like Tyra and the producers were trying to pressure her for a TV moment. In 2020, after getting some backlash about her comments, Tyra tweeted that she agreed what she said about Dani's gap was insensitive and that her choices were off. But on Cycle 15, Tyra actually got another girl, Chelsea Hursley, to have her gap widened. Why Tyra thought it was marketable for Chelsea and not Dani, I don't know. My makeover started a lot earlier than everybody else's. I had to get my gaff and my teeth whitened. So I went to the dentist and he actually shaved off each tooth. Of course I will do anything that she thinks looks good They shaved off parts of her teeth Hair grows back but teeth don As the seasons went on it became clear Tyra chose some of these makeovers just to get a reaction from the models. And she knew a lot of them would do anything she said. But while trying to make Tyra happy, some of the models got hurt. Freelance journalist Kate Taylor talked to contestants who said they were hospitalized because of the makeovers they received on Top Model. People got actually hurt. People had to go to the hospital for burns. People had permanent hair loss that took years and years to recover from. In season 16, it's totally off camera, but Michaela, she has to go to the emergency room because she develops this severe rash and she has sores on her head that just are bleeding. It's a medical emergency, and that is just totally not mentioned on the show because it doesn't fit the narrative of you need to trust Tyra's vision. If you trust Tyra, then this is going to work out. On season 12, there was a Black contestant named Amina Allende who wore her hair natural. She was pressured into getting it chemically straightened with a relaxer. Amina didn't want to use a relaxer, and she had valid reasons she shared with the producers and the stylists. But she told Kate they didn't care. In season 12, she basically went in and was like, I don't use relaxers. It does not work for me. Like, I'm worried if you use this, this is going to create scabs. I'm going to get burns. But the person who was doing the makeover told her, this is what Tyra wants. What Tyra wants, Tyra gets in this situation. This is something where she knew if she kept pushing back, like she'd watch the show, she knew she was going to get eliminated and told she had a bad attitude. So she bit her tongue and she feels her scalp burning. When she eventually removes her extensions after completing the season, she has a two-inch bald spot. And it took her three years to grow her hair back. The contestants Kate talked to said they felt powerless in these situations. You're 18 years old. You've signed this contract. Everyone on production is saying we can't push back against Tyra. You're not in a position where you can really advocate for yourself. Tyra wanted to see how far these contestants would go to impress her. She was willing to literally cause them injury to carry out her almighty vision. These tie-overs seemed to be less about fashion and more about humiliation. One of the most disturbing stories I heard about an A&TM makeover came from Gina Turner, the runner-up on Cycle 24. Gina's kind of known for her bald head, but how that haircut came about puts a point in the villain column for Tyra. Gina has alopecia. It's something she's battled since she was a kid. Before coming on A&TM, Gina wore wigs all the time. She told me if she had to go outside to the mailbox, she would put a wig on. She thought there was a possibility A&TM would want to take her wig off, but she was relieved when Tyra revealed what her makeover would be. On Gina's season, Tyra had the models watch a video before going to the salon where she explained the new look each one of them would be getting. Here's what Gina says she was told. We're going to give you your natural hair. We're going to give you your hair back from childhood is what she told me. And I was like, if there's anyone that can do it, I have seen so many different makeovers and Tyra with all kinds of different hair and wigs and everything else. I was like, if there's anyone who can give me back my red, gold, blonde, crazy lion, mane, mixed girl hair and make it look real. It's the show. They have the money to do it. So I got really excited about that. At the time, Gina was wearing a long, straight black wig. She thought A&TM was going to make her a wig that would look like her natural hair if she didn't have alopecia. I will say, in the edit that made it to the show, Tyra doesn't say any of that. All she says is Gina's wig is coming off. There's my perspective and the truth, and then there's what happened on reality TV. Gina went to the salon thinking her wig was coming off and being replaced with another wig. But that is not what happened. Rather than replacing her old wig with a new one, she was told they were cutting her hair completely bald. That was her makeover. She felt blindsided. Can we take your wig off now? Because I don't even know what's under. You are so brave. There's a world that's going to look at you and say, if she can do it, I can do it. You just don't understand, for me, how courageous and how powerful what you're doing is. It's scary, though. It's scary. It's okay. You ready? You're going to start the process. I'll hold your hand if you want me to. That's celebrity stylist, Law Roach, talking to Gina in that clip. He was a judge on Gina's season. Gina's wig was removed on camera while she was in tears. Some of her closest friends had never seen her take her wig off. Now she was in a room full of cameras and her patchy wisps of hair were exposed for everyone to see. I just kind of froze, but I remember everyone else going, because they all saw in the house that they didn't say that they were shaving my head. I stopped talking. And then I started crying because I was angry. Most people who know me would look at that and be like, oh, she's fucking pissed. Like, she's not crying about the situation. She's not sad. She's not poor, pitiful me-ing herself. Like, she's pissed. And I was mad. I was mad that they sat there and did that. I was mad that they couldn't tell me the truth, that they couldn't, like, just tell me that you're going to shave my head because I also had never had my head shaved. I was still going to give you the same emotional response. Maybe even better. But here you guys are trying to, like, outthink me and outsmart me in my own emotions. Gina told me when she was a kid, she was picked on a lot for having alopecia. A&TM taking her wig off on camera brought back all of those memories. Plus, she got really upset because they framed her haircut as an empowerment story, even though she had no power in that situation. She says the producers and judges kept telling her, You don't have any clue how courageous what you're doing is. But in reality, I'm not doing something courageous. You guys are sitting here manipulating a girl who's actually gone through this and then sitting here and preaching this now to a whole audience who's going to think that girl sat there and did it. I can too. No. No, that is not the narrative that I'm trying to project. Society also conditions us as women to think a certain way about our hair. My job is not to sit here and suffer so that you guys can manipulate an entire audience that now, girl, you can take your wig off and do it too because I did it. I didn't want to do it like that. You guys actually changed that narrative for me. Why not put it in my hands for it to be truthful? Because putting it in Gina's hands wouldn't get the breakdown and the tears A&TM wanted. To add insult to injury, Gina says the wig they promised her was there in the salon right behind her as she was getting her hair shaved off. Gina eventually embraced the bald look. These days, she goes back and forth between wigs and her bald head. But she says she resents A&T M for exploiting her trauma and forcing her to have a moment she wasn't ready for. Tyra acknowledged her comments about Danny Evans' gap, but she never apologized to Gina or any of the other girls who say they were traumatized by their makeovers. After the break, we'll talk more about Tyra's so-called apologies and why the ANTM contestants I spoke with say it isn't enough. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Jo Winterstein, host of The Spirit Daughter Podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver. The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men. Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom loving and different perspectives. And I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius are misunderstood. A sun and Venus in Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership. He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses, in different places, but just an embracing of the is-ness of it all. If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chartside view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict? A villain? A nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox and in the new podcast Doubt the case of Lucy Letby we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was no voicing of any skepticism or doubt it'll cause so much harm at every single level of the British establishment of this is wrong listen to Doubt the case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth. Until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There's another moment from A&TM I want to revisit. It's one of those moments we can't let Tyra off the hook for. And it happened to Cycle 4 contestant Kenya Hill. I need it to feel carefree, and I need you to stop posing for the camera. I kind of get into it, and I hear Bertini moaning. I feel him, like, breathing on me, touching me, and it's not comfortable at all. On cycle four, during the international trip to South Africa, the models did a shoot for Caress Body Wash. The contestants had to dance with three male models. But one of those models, his name was Bertini, took it too far with Kenya. He was touching her, grabbing her, grunting and moaning. Kenya told me she already went into the shoot uncomfortable because Bertini tried to hit on her before they started shooting. But when he crossed the line during the shoot, Kenya decided to say something. Stop. What's the issue? I know it's not about feeling comfortable, but I hear him moaning and it just threw me off. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I don't feel bad about stopping the shoot at all. Bertini has crossed that profession online and I feel extremely uncomfortable. We're here in a professional situation. There are like 50 of us sitting here on the side. Right, right. We're going with the flow. This Bertini guy, he didn't catch the hint. He kept doing it. So this is for the guys. Let's try and be interested without literally grabbing her butt. In the clip, you hear J. Manuel acknowledge that Kenya was being groped. But other than Kenya saying stop, they didn't actually stop the shoot or remove Bertini from the set. And Kenya told me it was way worse than what we saw on the show. This dude is grabbing me and moaning and he's got on a loincloth over his member and he's getting an erection. Like he is really overly enjoying this. Yeah, it was just an awful moment. Kenya completed the shoot and was later forced to sit through an awkward, tense dinner with the other contestants and the male models. Bertini was there. At the panel, the judges said Kenya's photo was good, but not great. Kenya told them what happened with the male model. The thing is that this male model, Bertini, he was flirting with me. He was grinding on me. I felt like he really crossed the line. There has to be a way that you can handle it. You know, you have to be able to be in control. Like with your feminine wiles, like, boy, you best to back up before I knock you upside the head. But you do it in a fun way where he knows to back the heck up, but it doesn't really put static in the air because then it makes you uncomfortable. Tyra told Kenya, speaking up, advocating for herself and bringing the situation to the attention of others, you know, handling it the right way, was actually wrong. Tyra wanted her to use her, quote, feminine wiles. Kenya was hurt and surprised by Tyra's reaction because she said when she called Bertini out, she thought she was channeling Tyra. I'm thinking, what would Tyra do in this instance? And there have been other moments earlier in the show where Tyra was trying to teach us about how to make sure we're not signing bad contracts, make sure we are smart businesswomen. And she was like empowering us the entire show. And so I thought Tyra would probably professionally and politely stop the shoot and just express her feelings that she's a little uncomfortable. That's what I genuinely thought. When Tyra told Kenya she handled the situation poorly, she didn't know what to say. So she kind of just took the advice. But watching it back today, as a person who coaches young models, Kenya knows Tyra was wrong. And she wishes she would have pushed back. It's actually kind of tough to watch back because I feel so bad for myself at that time. I should have really stood on business at panel and been like, I can't believe that you guys are not agreeing with me on speaking up and standing up for myself. I just feel I was handled very poorly. The contestants on ANTM trusted Tyra. They were young and looked up to her. Some even idolized Tyra. Tyra presented herself as a big sister figure, a mentor who was guiding them through what it took to be a model. It was part of the appeal of ANTM. But when I watch moments like this, it makes me realize how insidious that was. Tyra's advice to a teenager who was being sexually harassed on set was to be cute and flirty while somehow also being firm. Think about how dangerous that advice is in an industry that's known to prey on young women. Think about how dangerous that advice is for the show's mostly young woman audience. But moments like these where Tyra says something alarming are common on A&TM. It's why she has such a vocal backlash today. Back in February, Tyra was honored with the first ever Luminary Spotlight Award from Essence. The award was given to Tyra because of her legacy in fashion, film, and television. Tyra gave a heartfelt acceptance speech. You heard a few clips of it on this podcast. She started by thanking her mom. Then she talked about her early years in Paris when she wanted to give up on fashion. Then Tyra turned to her A&TM legacy. Over 20 years ago, I created a television show called America's Next Top Model. And I fought. And you guys have no idea how hard we fought to bring the diversity to that television show at a time where it didn't exist. But we made it happen. Did we get it right? Hell no I said some dumb shit But I refuse to have my legacy be about some stuff linked together on the Internet when there were 24 cycles of changing the world I found Tyra's comments about her A&T M legacy to be odd. She acknowledged that she'd done something wrong, but she belittled the criticism she received as if the backlash against her is just a few internet trolls. Clips of this speech started going viral around the time I started interviewing A&T M contestants for this podcast. So I asked a bunch of them what they thought about Tyra's comments. Jasleen Gonzalez, the winner of Cycle 8, who was in an abusive relationship and went to therapy at A&T M's suggestion, was the most kind. It was refreshing to hear her talk about the show. You know, it's been so long since I've heard from mother, you know, that's the mother to us of the show. And she hit it right on the nail as to what the show represented and what she was doing with the show. She's gotten a lot of backlash. And I think she's a human being. She's dealing with those issues on her own. We don't know how. It is not our job to know how and it is not our job to help her heal. That is on her. What she feels is right and what she feels is wrong is all on her. The other models I asked weren't so forgiving. Here's Cycle 4's Yuvie Gomez. She's like, yeah, did I see a lot of messed up things? Sure. But she was kind of deflecting, like not wanting to own up to, you know, the very not good things that she did. Like, it was almost like, but I did all this really good stuff. So why are you guys focusing on the bad stuff? It's like, nah, take accountability. We basically sold our souls and they got rich. This is what Giselle Sampson had to say about Tyra's statement. Wow, you're actually doubling down on the things you've done and said to everyone. Wow, that's pretty fierce, I guess. But the answer that really captured what felt so off about Tyra's comments came from Cycle 9's Sarah Hartshorn. Sarah's the one who just released a book about her time on A&TM. What Tyra said is fair and true. She has a big, huge, complex legacy. And I understand that she would not want that to get reduced to clips on the internet. I think what is also true is that the people in those clips who were experiencing those things at that time are real people. And those were real experiences. What she is reducing to clips on the internet are things that people went through. What Tyra is reducing to a few clips on the internet is a pattern of manipulation, exploitation, and humiliation. And Tyra was at the center of all of it. Don't get me wrong. There are contestants who say they had good experiences on A&TM. Jasleen Gonzalez is one of them. Cycle 3 winner Eva Marcel has defended Tyra publicly more than once. There are even contestants who went on to have big careers in entertainment after the show. But what about the contestants who feel like they didn't get anything out of it but trauma? Did their desire for fame or a modeling career give A&TM and Tyra the right to treat them the way they did? Giselle Sampson doesn't think so. And these days, she wants to do something about it. I think that it's pretty fair that this needs to be looked back at. and that we should be given some sort of compensation. Can I petition and put together all the girls and say, this is unjust and let's make this right and get this in the courts? This isn't about making it or not. We are a part of something that became history off of our backs and to our detriment. And we were hurt and we were bullied and we suffered some psychological issues from it. That's what we're talking about. We're not talking about whether we're famous or we made this much money from doing this and that because of the show. That's not what we're saying. Sarah Hartzorn again. I think people deserve to be paid for their work and their time. I'm not bitter that I didn't win. I'm bitter that there were a lot of girls who couldn't afford the mental health help that they needed after the show. Brittany Brower from Cycle 4 looks at all the money Tyra and the network are still making by licensing the show to streaming services. Then she looks at the hate messages and embarrassment some of the contestants are still receiving as a result and thinks they're owed a lot more. Remember, Brittany, who is white, was put in blackface on her cycle for the Got Milk shoot. I mean, you're putting your life out in the world. Perfect example is me. 2005, the episode got milk. It's real life. It's not a script. It's not a fake. And you don't know when things are going to come back and like cancel you or something. And it's hurtful. It's stressful. It's your real life. It's your real reputation. And then they rerun your episodes over and over and over and over again on Hulu on Netflix and everything else for the rest of your life. And you know how much money easy, nothing. I still get comments and people emailing me and messaging me on Instagram and TikTok all the time. Like they're so into it. Like, Oh, I just watched your season. It's just, it's such an unfair industry. They're making it all the money still just laughing all the way to the bank. And we don't get anything like nothing. Like it's just, gosh, throw me a thousand dollars per year. I'll take it. I mean, give me something. Like it's so insulting. Like we do this stuff and we get nothing, nothing. Sharon Brown was a high school student when she got sent home embarrassed on cycle 11. Remember, Sharon says she was made to look like a bigoted bully by the producers. Now what she wants is for Tyra to finally show up as that big sister, that mentor, the one Tyra seemed to be on the show. I chose to be a part of America's Next Top Mall, and I used and noted it the most that I can. would it have been great to get compensated or when things were sold to different networks and stuff to have a plan get residuals and that yes but i would love to see the beautiful conversation had with tyra and all of the other contestants on top model either in a private setting or film to record it so we can just talk i would love to see there being like more sisterhood and connection even just her taking the time just to reach out to some of us or to offer any type of tips that guidance, even like, okay, how can you use your platform now? But that big sister role Tyra played on A&TM was just that, a role. Here's former creative producer Andrew Patterson. Tyra Banks played a character called Tyra Banks on Top Model. She would walk out on judging, she would sit in a chair, she wouldn't talk to the other judges, but she would sit down, focus, because, you know, that's just her getting into character. Several contestants told me about bizarre interactions with Tyra. When the cameras were rolling, she was the warm, bubbly person we knew from the show. But Yuvie Gomez told me that when the director would yell cut... It was like she was vacant. Like she was turning it on for filming. Like she wasn't there. That's how I would explain her. Explain like how I viewed her on the show. now when i went on the tyra show completely different person like hugged us gave us kisses oh my gosh so good to see you you look great and i was like so confused i was like now you're acting like a normal human but on the show it was there was like such a disconnect even though some contestants like uv understand that tyra was playing a character they still want the real Tyra Banks to acknowledge what ANTM did. Cycle 2 winner Ioana House and a lot of other contestants just want an apology from Tyra. I think one of the things people are wanting from Tyra is accountability and an apology instead of standing behind the franchise. Where I think people are getting frustrated with her continual response is that I know a lot of the girls had probably gone through a lot of things after the show or during the show. You know, I think having more of an empathy instead of a combative, like, no, no, no, I did my best. And maybe giving girls their names that have come up against her. I had no idea that so-and-so had struggled so much. I had no idea that I had made that person feel that way. Putting a name behind somebody helps make that person human. If Tyra wanted to at least seem like she was atoning for the harm ANTM caused, Yawanna thinks Tyra should make personal apologies. A lot of the girls felt they were just discarded. They were just a prop for financial gain, for popularity, for network ratings. And I think when you can put a name and you can listen and admit, you know, what was done wrong and apologize, that's real growth. Tyra has made public apologies, but they're usually couched in her intentions, like this time when she addressed the second blackface challenge. I mean, we felt like our skin's beautiful. Let's paint the world our color. And then we saw it and we're like, oh no, this excuses other people to do this in a negative way. Or the times she's addressed the body shaming on the show, where she blamed it on it being a different time. Back in the day, nobody complained about it. But as we all evolve, 20 years later, people are like, what the hell? Or Tyra brings up her altruistic reason for creating A&TM. You know, changing the fashion industry and expanding the definition of beauty. Her apologies also seem to be directed at the public, at her audience. not to the models who say they were harmed by the show. And they're rarely specific in the way Ioana is suggesting. When A&TM started over 20 years ago, I think Tyra's intentions were in the right place. She wanted to showcase diversity and beauty. She wanted to usher in a new generation of models who wouldn't have to go through some of the things she went through alone. I really think she wanted to be that fashion fairy godmother. But somewhere along the way, her purpose got lost and took a backseat to her blind ambition. That blind ambition is what made her body shame these young women, even though she knew personally how painful that is. Her ambition is what made her go along with dangerous and humiliating photo shoots. Her ambition is what made her plan disastrous and embarrassing makeovers. Her ambition pushed her to put young women in uncomfortable situations and then blame them for not going along with it. Her ambition is what allowed her to look the other way when women who looked like her were being labeled angry or divas. Her ambition is what drove her to do this season after season for 15 years. I think her blind ambition is what's keeping her from taking real accountability the way Ioana suggested. And there are contestants who agree with me. Cycle 7's Eugenia Washington posted a video on social media where she said kind of the same thing. I think the fact that she refuses to apologize is what's going to keep her failing. If Tyra really wanted to take accountability, she would put as much effort into righting her wrongs as she did into making A&TM. But instead, she's cashing in on her fame with her bizarre passion projects. I feel like I'm going crazy. I don't sleep. These ideas just keep coming in my head. I'm talking about hot ice cream, innovation that took me over a year to get right. I have a sneaking suspicion that hot mama ice cream ain't going to be as big as A&M. It seems like she's still surrounded by people who are afraid to tell her no. And at this point, she's unstoppable. Remember that clip you heard on the first episode of this podcast? I mean, I always want more. I always want to do more. I never, like, just stop and get satisfied with something. This interview was in 1996, before Tyra started A&TM. But she kept that same ambition. It's what pushed her to do A&TM for 24 seasons, even after it was obvious that it wasn't living up to her so-called mission. But unchecked ambition can be your downfall. I think Tyra's ambition is keeping her from truly acknowledging what happened on A&TM and her role in it. She doesn't want to tarnish her legacy. But avoiding accountability is also the thing that's ruining it. After the break, we'll explore ANTM's legacy with one of the few people who's talked to more contestants than me. I'm talking about super fan and content creator Oliver Twix. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level if the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Jo Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter Podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver. The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men. actor, storyteller, and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom loving and different perspectives. And I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius, like are misunderstood. A sun and Venus in Aquarius in her seventh house spark her unconventional approach to partnership. He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms and different houses and different places, but just an embracing of the is-ness of it all. If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chart-side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must-listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth. Until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Around 2020, ANTM had a bit of a revival. People were looking for something nostalgic to watch, something that took them back to simpler times. Oliver Twixt was one of those people. So I started watching ANTM as a jet, as a little boy in Fort Lauderdale Florida My earliest memory of top model has to be seeing Eva and Yaya in the finale because my female relatives would watch it. But actually becoming a fan of it was birthed out of the marathons that used to run on VH1 every weekend. I would sit there in my room and watch the cycles and the episodes back to back to back to back to back. And I just became so enthralled with the creativity of it all. Oliver is an ANTM super fan. He's watched every season and can rattle off winners and specific photo shoots and runways like his ABCs. Oliver is also a content creator, artist, and entertainer. Back in 2020, he was on a reality show called the T.S. Madison Experience. The EP of that show, David St. John, had been a producer on A&TM. Him and I on set in between scenes talking about top model and I'm just running, I'm running down the cycles. You know, I'm da-da-da-da-da-da. He's like, oh my God, you really love this show. And David was still good friends with A&TM judge Jay Manuel. And so from there, David connected me with Jay Manuel, where Jay sent me his book that he did loosely inspired on his time on Top Model. Jay was doing these lives in which he would revisit old seasons and sometimes be joined by former A&TM judges, contestants, and superfans. Jay invited Oliver to do an Instagram live with him about his book. So I'm on live Instagram with Jay Manuel and I'm asking him all these questions. and the comments are like, oh my God, who is this Oliver guy? Oliver got so many responses from that Instagram live, he thought he could keep it going and interview some of the ANTM contestants he loved. Luckily for Oliver, it was COVID lockdown and everybody was bored in the house and in the house bored. So originally I started just DMing people. I like looked them up on social media and I would DM them. And I was like, hey, do you want to be interviewed by me? I used to do them on Instagram only. But then once I started putting them on YouTube, that's when it like, it went to a whole nother level of people watching and viewing and chiming in and supporting and taking notice. Oliver didn't set out to be the person A&TM models came to when they wanted to tell never before heard stories or talk about their trauma from the show. He just wanted to have fun and gossip about his favorite A&TM moments. But Oliver started doing these interviews, around the same time, many of us realized ANTM wasn't as wholesome as we remembered. His interviews gave us the backstories on a lot of the disturbing things we were revisiting. And even though he didn't mean to, Oliver's interviews helped spark the ANTM reckoning. I'm genuinely just interested in fanning out for this hour, two hours or three hours that I have this person with me, you know, about my favorite show that I absolutely love. And so my intentions are always just rooted in wanting to hear them and hear what they had to say without no filter, without no judgment, allowing these people to tell their story their way, whether I like it, agree with it, believe it, whatever it is. And so as people are talking, I'm seeing tears. I'm seeing mood changes. I'm seeing people say, I've never shared this before. Or I'm hearing people use words such as, this was so healing. I appreciate this. Oliver was one of A&TM's biggest fans. He knew every word. But hearing about the dark side of the show directly from the models forced him to think more critically about Tyra Banks. She's a human too. She had never had no show as big as top model ever in her life to base her actions off of. But unfortunately for Tyra and people like Tyra, when you get into that position of power, it does come with responsibilities. Tyra is not only a superstar with a huge platform, she's a Black woman with a lot of power. And Black women in positions of power often face unfair criticism. When I started this podcast, I was thinking a lot about if the public criticism of Tyra is fair or if she's being held to a different standard. I asked film professor Raquel Gates what she thinks about this. Tyra Banks is in a very weird bind because I think there's this way that, you know, like everyone wants to make her uniquely accountable for everything that happened on that show. And again, some of that makes sense because it's her show, right? because she is the figurehead, right? And it's built on her back. But I think there is a way where sometimes I think the call for accountability feels a little dishonest to me because it's asking her to be accountable for an entire network, for a production company, for decisions made by sponsors, by cover growth, by magazines, by advertisers. And I think that what we're seeing is sort of her refusal to be scapegoated for all of those decisions, even though that seems to be what our society is constantly demanding of Black women. When I talked to freelance reporter Bethany Butler, she brought up something similar. I think it's a little unfair for people to say, like, well, Tyra should have, you know, taken care of these big personalities within the franchise. You know, you can't really say that any more than we could say Simon Cowell should have done that or Donald Trump even, which sounds hilarious right now, but just the idea that, like, Tyra would be almost held accountable in a way that other non-Black, certainly non-Black women, host creators of franchises are. There's truth in what Bethany and Raquel are saying. Black women are held to a different standard. And I do think that's happening to Tyra. She shouldn't be the only one held responsible for ANTM's failures. But I've also talked to the people Top Model Hurt, many of whom are black and brown women who were so young when they went on the show. They trusted Tyra, and they were left feeling used. After having those conversations, I think Tyra deserves the smoke. It's just that so do a lot of other people. Here's Oliver Twix again. I feel like when you're in the game of people as your currency, you do have to answer to those expectations, especially when you are a black woman and black women are in the conversation. Now, ultimately, to be fair, does Tyra have to? No. You know, y'all signed this paper. Y'all just signed it all the way. He's talking about Tyra's legal responsibility to the contestants based on the A&TM contract. But I do believe you should try to answer to those conversations. And I think the problem with Tyra is she's never done that. She's never really directly answered questions or specific things. She's never really had this type of moment, you know, with someone who's saying, well, what about this? What about this? And being truthful in that moment. You know, she's always done these blanket statements and not saying that's not good enough or whatever. Only she and her God can determine that. But I think when it comes to the people, people just want to hear her answer things directly. We started this podcast asking Perez Hilton why A&TM was such a hit when it premiered 20 years ago. I also asked him what he thinks the show and Tyra's legacy is today. They made memorable television that had cultural impact, and that's hard to do. The show was awesome. Like, you also have to celebrate what it got right, and that's, you know, making good TV. And Perez says a lot of that had to do with Tyra Banks herself. The people that are talked about often, most of them want to be talked about and play the game. It's a game. And Tyra played the game. Tyra and A&TM sold a fantasy, a fairy tale. Oliver Twix believed in it, but now he can't even bring himself to watch the show. I do not watch the show anymore. I think for me, the curtain has just been pulled back all the way and the fantasy is now gone for me. That happened to me too. It's not that A&TM isn't still entertaining, but I can't enjoy the show because after hosting this podcast, I'm constantly questioning the reality A&TM presents. Now I know it's all manufactured and watching a show where you're second guessing everything you see isn't fun. I asked Oliver the question at the center of this podcast. Knowing all we know today, what is ANTM's legacy? I definitely do believe a part of their legacy is being one of the reality TV shows that shaped the genre. Definitely. People like to demonize the show and they can do that. but from that crop of reality tv shows birthed during that time top model has had the longest lasting effects people still watch that show like it just came on yesterday people still spend thousands of dollars to produce content talking about that show because it's still so relevant until the show definitely is I believe the face of staying power within this genre and the entertainment business and I think for it to be held by a black woman is also powerful I also think the legacy of top model keeps us having these types of important discussions about how do we treat people within entertainment? How do we treat people who are just starting out, who are green to the industry? How do we treat them? How do we inform them? I believe it's also an example for people just starting out. What could happen? You know, what could happen in your own career if you come in contact with someone who you thought was going to answer all of your dreams and it doesn't happen that way. What do you do? It's definitely a shining example on what to do and what not to do. You might be surprised, but when my team and I started working on this podcast, I actually resisted the name Curse Of. I wanted this podcast to be more about ANTM's iconic legacy than the cursed aspect. Nostalgia can do that to you. It makes you romanticize and sometimes misremember what actually happened. It can make you rigid in your thinking. We don't want to confront the truth about the things we used to love. But after being confronted with the reality of ANTM, I had to think differently. I realized the curse isn't just on the contestants or their careers. The curse of America's Next Top Model is on us too. ANTM birthed an entire generation of reality TV and taught the audience that as long as it's in the name of entertainment, people are disposable. According to Perez Hilton, expert in base human nature, that's part of ANTM's legacy, too. I don't want reality TV to be nice. We want messiness. The reality TV viewers want drama. That's what reality TV is. They want the housewives fighting. It's harsh, but it's like they want these people to be exploited. And when those exploited people start speaking out, we look for someone to blame. When I was talking to Cycle 20 contestant Corey Wade about the backlash ANTM has gotten over the past few years, I expected him to join the hate train. But he surprised me. We all tend to want to point the finger at Tyra, and we all want to try to find a villain in her. I think it's more important now more than ever that we kind of look at ourselves, that we kind of take some responsibility, that we take responsibility for ourselves, so to speak. we are the consumers, the people who love that show, who watched it every single week. Its success was due to us and how much we supported it, how much we loved it. So take a look at what you are entertained by today. Don't worry. This isn't a soapbox moment where I urge you to stop watching reality TV. I'm certainly not going to stop. But I do wonder if it's because I grew up watching a show that primed me to believe exploiting people is okay, as long as there's a good story or prize at the finish line. ANTM and shows like it made us believe that the price of pursuing instant fame is humiliation. There are a lot of people who say we're judging the show too harshly. Perez Hilton is one of those people. There's this new trend of revisiting the past with the lens of today that I don't know if it's fair. Honestly, I wouldn't expect anything different from Perez. But this is one thing I disagree with him on. Thinking critically about the past pushes pop culture forward. Our entertainment has to evolve with us. Ideally, talking about how far we've come is what keeps us from making the same mistakes. Don't get me wrong. In 20 years, when we open the Love Island or Love is Blind capsule, we'll probably be horrified all over again. But hopefully, by then, we will have learned enough not to repeat the curse of America's Next Top Model. Thanks for listening to the curse of America's Next Top Model. We're grateful for your support. We'd love for you to really show your support by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcast. Don't forget to give us a five-star review. If you love the show, tell your group chat, your friends, your mama to check us out. And if you don't, maybe keep that one to yourself. The Curse of America's Next Top Model is a production of Glass Podcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcast. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and senior produced by me, Bridget Armstrong. Our story editor is Monique Laborde also produced by Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning. Associate producers are Alaysha Key, Kristen Melchiori, and Curry Richmond. Consulting producers on this podcast are Oliver Twixt and Kate Taylor. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing on this episode by Matt DelVecchio and Tanner Robbins. The Curse of America's Next Top Model theme was composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MyMusic. Special thanks to everyone we interviewed, especially the former contestants. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Also check out the atglasspodcast Instagram for Curse of America's Next Top Model behind-the-scenes content. it. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. Mind Games, a new podcast exploring NLP, a.k.a. neurolinguistic programming. Is it a self-help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.