Ep 1319 | What History Didn’t Teach You About America’s Fight for Religious Freedom

I am unashamed. What about you? Nice hat, Zach. Thank you, brother. Thank you. There's no affiliation. He just plays the color. That's just a shirt. This LA right here means something, Christian. That's just fake news. Yeah. Huh. That's funny. That's what is it? What's the word for me? That's unintentionally, rasitizer. All right. We're on a six week detour. We've left. We've, we haven't left. We just put aside a little bit. Ancient Christianity. We moved into Colonial America course with Hillsdale. And the reason why is because you guys know what's coming up right on July 4th. Anybody know what's so special about that? It's 250. 250. 250 years. 250 years. And our friends at Hillsdale College have a new documentary. It's coming out theaters. It's called Revolutionary America. It's narrated by Magnum P. I. Oh, Tom Selleck. If you guys, one of the best mustaches in all of show business along with the Deerly departed Chuck Norris. It was one of the best. You think it's one of the best or the best? Well, it's hard to say. I used to work a pretty serious. I don't know. I don't know any. I don't know anybody better. I'll say that. Well, it, it really feels like the next chapter after the Colonial America course we're doing now. So it'll be great for you guys to go see that in theaters. And it tells the story of how this country started. You know, not some watered down version either. It's an honest assessment of kind of our history and how we got here. You can see how people really did risk everything, which you're going to see in this course too. I mean, like that's one of the things that I'm like, man, there was a lot of risk that went into the founding of America, but against all odds, they actually pulled it off and they built something that's lasted nearly 250 years. So with that anniversary coming up, it's the story that people really do need to understand something we need to pass on. And this is one of those that you want to see on the big screen, not just streaming it later. And it's only in theaters for a limited time. So you guys can get your tickets right now at hillsdale.edu slash film. That's hillsdale.edu slash film. Go check it out. I can't wait to see this. And yeah, kind of, it's kind of a really good lead that we're doing here into that film. But I don't know what you guys thought about the course, but this has been good. I loved it. I'm stepping into a new, we have taken a detour and I will once again be the novice on this detour because I was learning so much about this course. Either I didn't pay attention in history or my high school did not teach me that much. But I was, yeah, I was without, we were talking about it before the podcast started, but we were learning a lot and I was, it held my attention. And I thought it was really cool. The storytelling too was fascinating. It was different than the courses we've done in the past. A little more storytelling. And if you watch it, just opposed to listening to it, they kind of have all the different graphics and images and things through the history. It's a great atmosphere. Yeah, it was really cool. It was an awesome video. Well, let me tell you this too. I drove to Nashville because Max and Layla were doing an event at K-Love. And so then I drove back and I was, had some meetings there. So I drove back and with one of the guys that works here, John Luke, his name is Josh. And so a topic came up about Dungeons and Dragons too. So I was getting like an education on D&D. Is it D&D? Is that what you guys call it? D&D. Yeah. And I have to say that I don't get it. I thought he was going to say, you know, I miss something. I was like, what's the point of it? And he kept trying to explain the point of it. I was like, this is like, there's a point though. And he's like, well, you got this guy. He like, and I'm like, you kind of make it up as you go along. I'm like, well, then all things are possible. I mean, like, and I started like throwing out different scenarios to her. Well, you could you could you relate? That's biblical. That's biblical. Could you relate Dungeons and Dragons to Colonial America? If I ask you to. You could. Sure. 30 seconds. Go. You just bit 10 seconds. 20 seconds. Here's how the Dungeons and Dragons is like Colonial America. Okay. The basis of Dungeons and Dragons is about adventurers going out on adventures. Just like the Colonials who left England, landed in America and went out and ventured forth in America. And they didn't know what they were going to see. They didn't know what the folklore was going to happen. They didn't know what people were like out there and they did their best to live out of the values that they had instilled in them to conquer the new land and do good in the world. That was great. Good job. I'm impressed. I'm impressed. John Luke steps forward. I mean, I don't know much about D&D, but I do know that what they faced was very difficult and they had to kind of strategize and do it. I feel like, and I think we talked about this before, that when I watched Stranger Things, I got an idea of it for the first time, kind of what it was like. It felt like it was kind of a metaphor behind everything that was going on in that television show. So I kind of understood it more than I ever had before just from watching that show. I felt like, but who knows, it's TV. I didn't know you watched Stranger Things. I did. I did. I got hooked on it. I was a little disappointed in some of it, obviously in the end, but I did like it overall. I feel like I know a little more about it. It's just making up a story. Yeah. That's it. That's what it is. Well, is that not being Robertson? Yeah. That's what I'm saying. I mean, like, we were steeped in making that story. Yeah, but she just makes stuff up. It's kind of like why I departed from Avengers and I told Max this. We were watching Ant-Man and I'm like, man, once you get into time travel and quantum mechanics, everything, you could just like, nothing's ever finalized. Every story can be retold that way. It's just like, to me, once you do that, that's the cheap way out. That's like, we can just do whatever we want and we can make up stuff. I like make believe, but then there's like, you got to have some limits to the story. Okay, so that's actually what you're missing. That's the key of Dungeons and Dragons is that there are rules. That's what, like when you buy the Dungeons and Dragons book, you're buying the rule book, so you can't do anything. That's the whole thing. There are parameters. The game is the parameters. That's what it is. I still don't get it. I haven't played it either. I haven't played it either, sir. Well, the interesting thing is we're in this course on the founding of our country and not really the founding of our country yet either. I mean, we're talking about the very beginning of it. Yeah, this is way back. Yeah. I'll tell you this, Christian, you said that you didn't get this education. I actually got this education in elementary school and it's kind of funny. Well, it's nothing I didn't. I just don't know if I paid attention. Well, did you guys like dress up as pilgrims and Indians and do all that for Thanksgiving? Did y'all do that like during that season? Maybe in early elementary. Oh, yeah, we did that for sure. But I don't have a recollection of that past being like seven. Yeah. So I had memories flooding back in as I was going through this. I almost dressed up as a pilgrim today. You should have dressed up as Ben Franklin. We'll talk about this. What's interesting, how much of this is tied to the Anglican church in England and what was going on in that time period. We were in ancient Christianity kind of moving into, we kind of skip forward like hundreds of years, right, from where we were at. Maybe I guess actually a couple thousand and or maybe what, not a couple thousand, but at least 1500, yeah, 1500 years. But it's interesting how by the time we get to the founding of what happened over here on our side of the pond, how much Christianity had advanced now. Now we're post Catholicism or from Catholicism, you have the Anglican church kind of emerges out of that. And then these particular groups, at least the first groups that were coming over were coming from the Church of England, looking for the, well, the first one would be the Pilgrims, which, yeah, I think there's a, you need to remember too, because sometimes we kind of lump all these people in together with the Puritans and the Pilgrims, but they're actually different groups of people. And the Pilgrims, they were kind of their own, I don't know how to say it, I mean, these guys were like as tough as nails. I was so surprised at, I'm not surprised, just so taken by the stories of the endurance that they had to suffer through by coming over here. Well, and I had forgotten that they first tried their sort of secession to Holland. I'd forgotten that. And, you know, which is another European culture, but it didn't work out, which was interesting to me that they really did need something truly untamed to, from their perspective, to start and do what they wanted to do. And so I like the way that the professors that are interviewed on there talk about this, the uniqueness of the opportunity to rebuild a civilization. I guess any time we always kind of think about that, what would it be like if we just had a chance to start over? That's why the, I think the deserted island fantasy is so powerful. The idea of what would you do if you just had a chance where nothing else mattered, but you had a chance to start. And then everything you know that kind of didn't work out well, you could reset it. But the interesting thing thing was as the years go on, and we'll get into this a lot more in the next episode, that it begins to falter and have problems because people are messy. I mean, no matter what you think, when you start drawing together people with different backgrounds, different cultural aspects, different religious fronts, you're going to get into conflict and issues. And so that's what's going to happen here. Not to mention that just the difficulty of where they landed and what was going on and with the weather and the unrelenting things like that. It's just, it's pretty fascinating. Yeah, they should have just gone about 1500 miles south. Oh man, just if only they'd come to Florida. That's where Chris and I thrive. We're like, this is where you go to start a civilization. Well, I was thinking about it because like Christopher Columbus landed in like the Dominican or Haiti, like somewhere in the islands. And he went back and was like, this place is awesome. The weather and the pilgrims later, Massachusetts. Exactly. Yeah, they should have just gone a little more south. They should have gone a little more south. I do have a question about that though, because it talked about how they aimed to land at the Hudson River. And I was thinking like, how did they, like, how did they know about the Hudson River or how do they know like where that would have been? Cause there still was, I mean, there was, I don't know, I'm not, Well, there had to have been, I thought the same thing. There had to have been people that had already been here. I mean, as part of post Columbus, right? Yeah. So I looked up, I looked this up because this was, this was confusing to me. Cause I feel like the way we learned it in school was like the Mayflower is like the first ship there. That's it. But Jamestown was already established. The rowing out colony was already lost. Like there was tons of, I mean, tons, but there were other people, like I would assume like research vessels sort of type of people coming in, mapping things, figuring it all out, but no one like established a colony until. Yeah. Cause I was confused in there. They were, they tried to aim for the, go to the Hudson River, but they were out, they were off, but I was like, how would they know what the Hudson River was? Cause you're talking about, thank you, you're talking about from, you mentioned 1492 era, and we're talking about 150 years of transatlantic travel where I'm sure maps were being made of what they had seen. And I mean, but again, you know, it's interesting cause we look at everything cause all we got to do is like Google a map and you can look, look and see the whole thing. But obviously they're only going off what you saw this particular time. So you're, it's a building in progress. So it would take 150 years to figure out that, okay, if we're up here and this is the, I'm sure they're going by stars. And so we're going to land here. This is going to be where we found this amazing river and this, you know, cause you come in in New York, you see what they were looking for, but then they want to come in north of that. And it was just terrible. Yeah. I meant to look this up. How long it took. The pilgrims, the voyage, the voyage 66 days. Yeah. So what did they say on that? Not bad. I think I missed that. As long as you would think, well, they, uh, what, if you think about it too, the, that it wasn't the first people from Europe to come to the, to the continental U S, I mean, um, Ponce de Leon, I remember that from growing up in Florida. You know, I came through St. Augustine in the 1500s. They actually had the oldest, I think it's the oldest church in America. As in St. Augustine's Catholic church, the oldest serving congregation, like, like the oldest continuous meeting congregation in the U S. I was told this has been, I'll be sure. So don't hold me to it, but it's actually in Ebenezer, Georgia, and it's a Lutheran church and it was started and founded by, uh, my, my ancestors, the dashers, wise and makers, Copens, the Salisbury society that came into South Georgia. But the point that I was making that is like, there was stuff going on here, even like Squanto, you know, one of the Indians that had helped the pilgrims really early on, I was thinking about the significance of him, for example. I mean, can you imagine? Yeah. How they would have survived without his influence and the fact that he had been captured by, um, I think some Englishmen taken back to England. And where he learned English. Yeah. Where he learned English. So they weren't just like, but it is so interesting though that, um, that there was a little bit of life there, but I mean, they weren't, they weren't coming into any, you know, real way of living other than it was just complete and other. Um, I mean, they thought they were going into Utopia. They were actually going into it to the devil's den in terms of how difficult it would have proved to be. Well, there was a line, I think it was Dr. Arron that said it, that I wrote down because I thought it was very powerful. And you just mentioned about, uh, Squanto, they were a providential people. And I think there's no doubt. We believe that even now. And certainly they believed it like that, things like that, that would happen. That allowed them to survive a providential people undertaking an unprecedented mission that is unique for all time. And I think that's true. I mean, I think that's why it is centers with them. And that's why they started there, but you're right. There's more history you have to learn about before to understand how that was even possible. Uh, I wanted to say that one of the things this, just the title struck me. Because when I, when I was, uh, when I turned, uh, 18 years old in 1983, my first, uh, presidential vote cast was in, was in 1984 for Ronald Reagan, because he was an inspiration to me as a young man politically. It's kind of when I became politically aware and he had an address, his final address in 1989 is called the city on the hill speech because in that, and I wrote it down, he said this, he said, it's the American vision of creating a new nation of free people, a country that would be a light unto other nations and a shining city on a hill. And then later in the speech, he said America is and always shall be a shining city on a hill. And so I just thought it was interesting that one of the reasons why Reagan was so beloved, and by this time, you know, he already had early symptoms, Alzheimer's. And of course later it would take him much like a dead dad. You know, when you look at him, he was able to harken back to probably the greatest strength we ever had, which was, you know, to, to, for people to just launch out and say, we're going to do this. And so everything we learn about in between, I just love it that even in our era, my lifetime, you still have people looking back to this notion, cause that was a line from one of the, one of the first guys was John Winthrop Winthrop. Um, so what a throwback, right? I mean, just so, so it immediately touched me just as a, you know, a guy who's lived here now, you know, for 61 years, that the concept is still good. You know, no matter what we do and stuff, we get into things that take us off course. The concept of a city on a hill is a good thing and a biblical thing. You know, the, the life that shines, you know, that we hold it out. It's kind of an idea that comes out of scripture, even from Jesus. Of course that's a greater calling than even America. But I do think it's, it's the idea of it, that sound. Wouldn't you be sure and sign up with us, take the course? UnashamedforHillsdale.com is free. Uh, so we'd love to have you along. You're going to love this course. I do have a quick question and we'll talk about this probably closer to the end of the podcast, but going back to the beginning. So what was the main reason for, for the, for the pilgrims wanting to separate from the church of England and the set up for Holland and then that and I working out and then going towards the US, because the point I was going to make was that towards the end of the podcast, you kind of see like just the downside of humanity to where with, with power and with leadership, certain things become corrupt. But originally what was the, like, what was the main reason for them wanting to separate themselves from the church of England? Well, part of it was that they were Calvinists, right? Say, I mean, I heard them say that I'd never heard that before. Is that true? I know it's true cause they said it, but I mean, is that, uh, is that, uh, is that one of the bigger reasons? Cause obviously that would have been very much of a different way of thinking, uh, back then, but he said they were Calvinist and separatist is, is, is the way that professor that was, uh, being interviewed said it. And so I didn't realize that particular schism was something that I guess they couldn't find relief, uh, within the church there in England. So that was part of the reasons why they wanted to move on. Well, I think that, um, if you think about the Anglican church, um, I think this was also mentioned, but like Anglican church, church of England, it's very Catholic, um, minus the, you know, the Pope. And so that they were pushing back saying that the, the, the Anglican church had not reformed enough. And so they wanted to push the reformation further. So, you know, they would have definitely came out of like the reform Calvinist tradition. And so you think, go back and think about what that would look like. You know, at the Catholic church and it's, and it's most corrupt state was selling indulgences, then, you know, Martin Luther, you know, he nails the, the 90, 95 theses to the, to the door of the church in Wittenberg. And then Calvin comes after that. So you kind of, you see like this, this idea of a re of reformation, looking at the current state saying, we think this is corrupt. We want to reform it. And then the group that reformed out of that, they said, well, you haven't gone far enough. And so they, they wanted to separate that this wasn't, they didn't want to, they did not want to reform the current state. They're like, let's start, like, let's start our own deal. Like let's, let's start over. Let's deconsolidate. And, um, truthfully, I think that, that that's been the trajectory of the church since its inception has always been reforming. And it's one of the ideas of the preformation movement. I think we've lost is that once a, once a reformer, always a reformer, like the church is always in a continual state of reforming. And so what they were doing is they're looking at thinking if we can go to a certain place, cause they tried it in Holland, as you mentioned earlier, they go there, but then they felt like that they are, that their children were being co-opted into a different culture and they weren't comfortable with that. So it's like, we don't want the culture to cataclyse our children. So we need to, we need to go to a different place, a place that's like, let's start over, let's, let's create something completely fresh and completely new. And so they came on the voyage on the Mayflower, Mayflower for that purpose. Now, what, what's interesting is, you know, they were people that were extremely devoted cause, um, I forgot, what did they say the, the size of the living quarters were for like over a hundred people that came on the Mayflower. I think the living space was like a thousand square feet or something. I can't remember. Well, it was supposed to be two ships and then they had to combine it into one. So whatever it was, which probably wasn't very big, it then got doubled up on top of that. So yeah, it was terrible. I do, I want to say this. I do think it's interesting that these guys honed in on an agree 100% the spirit of America, the idea of what it means now, all these years later, you know, we're talking about 250 years and obviously this is going back even further. The idea that, that liberty and freedom, whether it's religious or some other thing that's going to come up is worth dying for. I mean, I mean, that hasn't happened in every place around the world. I mean, a lot of people just throughout history, they just become you kneel to the monarch and you don't even think about the idea that it wouldn't be worth it to die for it because you're never going to be free. You're always going to be under this regime. And so I think that is something uniquely American that is because of this, because these people, I mean, Holland was safe. I mean, like you could go there and you didn't have to worry about, you know, getting killed and you didn't have to worry about having to build your own houses and all this, but these people took with them this spirit that says, our freedom is worth dying for. And then the first winter, half of them did die. And so I think that's lost about half. Yeah. And so I think that's something that is in the American psyche. And right up until today, you know, we're, we debate on the other podcast act, we've been debating about the Iran war and all these things going on. It's this strong idea that's still there. Not with everybody, but with a lot of people that says freedom is worth dying for. And so I just, I think it is unique and different because you just, you look back through history and you just don't see that like, like you did. Well, and I'll tell you something. Now there's, there's a, there is a pull in this and even their quest, like I actually, like part of their quest, I'm like, guys, there's no utopia. Like I could have told you that, you know, but then part of it, you're like, I'm glad that you had the quest for the utopia because that's what was the engine that drove you guys, you know, to the United States. And really it was the birth of the greatest advanced. Well, you could say what you want about the U S, but I mean, there's never been a more free country on the planet. And so like we have to acknowledge that. And so they're coming over, not as all religious people either. There was 41 pilgrims, but there were 61, what they called the strangers. Non-religious strangers. Yeah. These are not religious people. They were there for pragmatic purposes. We need you skilled laborers to help build the society. So they brought with them people who weren't even pilgrims. And, and so the way the whole system kind of like the, the original like contract in the, in the U S, the U S hasn't been formed yet, of course, but like, like this is a story that we're living into. Um, was the fact that when they came over here, the strangers are getting, they get, they're like, wait a second, there's their wall here. Like we can do whatever we want. Exactly. Um, but in order to have that society, they, they had to kind of somehow form some type of cooperative because they all needed each other. And so that was when they came up with the, with the main flower compact, which was the, that was the agreement. This is going to be the agreement that we're going to govern ourselves, which is also, that's an American idea that will certainly emerge as this unfolds. We're going to govern ourselves. And here's kind of our, our rough contract with each other of how that's going to happen. And that was kind of the precursor of at least establishing some order in the freedom. So this is, I think this is important because that's the pool, right? Are we going to be free? Are we going to have law? And the answer is we've got to have a little bit of both. So how does, how they bounce it out? And this is the first attempt at that. This was the Mayflower compact was one of my favorite things to learn about and to research after their analysts know this. Um, because I think it, it, it does so. Um, it, it's exactly what we're talking about, about that freedom and about the freedom of religion and wanting people to be free. Uh, I'm going to go in a tangent and I'm going to come back to this in just a second, but to go back to Christian's question about the church. So I was reading, um, about the church, the Catholic church in the 11 and 1200s, uh, before this, and, uh, there's this guy Francis, a CC, I think is his name. Um, and I just learned about this. So you can do further research, but a brief summary. He kind of like started this idea of, um, of focusing on Jesus as human and how we all are also human along with Jesus and have direct contact with God, which like really, uh, at the time, the Catholic church was really focusing on like God as God, putting more focus on that, on the God ship and had a very strict, uh, strict levels of authority to how to get to God. So like if you were a peasant, like you had to have a priest, the priest had the saints, the saints have the angels, the angels had God. And so it was like your average guy to God, there was a lot of people you had to get through to get there. And, uh, he started, started kind of talking about this idea of like equality. We all have equal, equal opportunity with God. And that idea that all men have equal access to God, that we are all equal as humans, not that they were doing that in the 11 and 1200s, but I think that idea started to permeate and it started to go through as the Catholic church got more and more political, more and more authoritarian, um, like Martin Luther and Calvin and those kinds of church fathers started to rebel against that. Then the church of England's form, the church split and the church of England didn't really change. Like they split theologically maybe, but there was still this like high structure and very quickly it became political, authoritative. Like it was, you, if you were in England at the time or around that time, like you had to be, you had to be a part of the church. Like it, the church and the state were so together that it wasn't like you couldn't choose, oh, maybe Catholic, like there was so much, um, and the mosque between the two groups. So whenever the, uh, those pilgrims came over, they were really trying to get away from that entire authoritative part and say that like all men are equal in God's eyes, all men are equal to God. All men have access to God. And they wanted the, the specific freedom from religion is that you don't have to be a part of, you don't have to believe the, um, the beliefs of the church to participate in the work of the land. And be a still, you're still equal as human. You don't need to have persecution. You shouldn't have violence against you because of, you have a different theological belief. So when they get here and they have this made for our conflict compact, I was like, this is like them putting their money where their mouth is because the church, the original, the pilgrims who were, um, who had their religious belief, they could have told the 61 strangers, like you've got to join the church. Yeah. If anywhere in Europe, that's what would have happened. Yeah. Like I said, you got to, they wouldn't be able to, they wouldn't allow to be strangers. They wouldn't have allowed to not be a part of the church and still participate in the, uh, participate as equals in the, um, in the country, in the group and the governance and the government. And so they had this thing and they put it in their mouth. It's like, you don't have to join the church to be a part of the government. I love it. Like we are all, even though you don't believe the same of us, we're still equal as humans and in the eyes of the eye. Which really becomes such a smart point because it really becomes the foundation of what would later be freedom of religion in the eye. And that's for all religion. I mean, that's for everybody that's different. And we'll see in the next, uh, podcast that that gets tested early. Yeah. Cause then you get the Quakers and the other people start showing up. So yeah, that's such a great point that, that you look at that and you see the foundation is, it's almost like that may flower. Here's what I learned that I did. I've heard may fire compact all of my years of studies, but I never saw the significance of when you took a microcosm of a hundred people basically. And, and it was a 60, 40 non religious and that they could make a compact to live together. Right. That really was the, the, the thread that then became the American, you know, reality that we know now. Once you take the course with us, sign up and for free at a unashamedforhillsdale.com. Just to clarify, there, it was like a 60, 40 split, but the 40 were all the same group in the 60 were all individuals. Right. So it wasn't like they had, that's what I'm saying that 40. It wasn't 60. Yeah. It wasn't 40 or 60. The 40 had all the power because the 61 were all individual people. Right. Right. Right. Well, what would have necessarily been the difference theologically between the pilgrims who wanted to separate from the church versus the puritans who wanted to purify their church of England? Like you just kind of talked about it from that standpoint, but like theologically like would it have been Calvinism and Catholic with that? No, they were both, I think, no, I think everybody came out of the reformed tradition. It was, it was more of how do we engage that? Are we, do we want to reform the church or do we want to separate out and, and like this we're divorcing ourselves from the church and then we believe the church is over here now. Well, because I know there was conflict when the puritans did get here with the puritans. The puritans are certainly reformed as well. Yeah. I think when you think about the Catholic church and, you know, that probably there was, there was more, there was more divergence than just authority. I mean, it was, you know, the soul is the five soul is, but the, but the one that I think had to do with authority was the Sola Scriptura. The scripture alone is the authority. And I, and I have certainly hold to that. I think it is foundational for kind of the Protestant faith is what we're saying if you're a Protestant, particularly coming out of the reformation movement is what we're saying is the church does not have the same authority as the Bible. So if, if, if you were to say, well, how do I know its truth? Well, I wonder what does the Bible say? Their argument, Catholic, or maybe I can Orthodox Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox, they would say that they, that they have a better interpret or correct interpretation of the scripture because they can, they can trace their authority through an apostolic succession. Now, then you get into an issue. All three groups say that you can do that. Which one of you actually has the apostolic authority? And so you back into some props, in my opinion, in that. But I think that that was the big shift too, is that they're coming in and you see this kind of like politically, and you see it in the church. You see a deconsolidation of, of like the power structure, like the centralized power, you know, we're getting away from the monarch. I mean, that's where all this is headed, right? We're going to rebel against King George. We're going to say, no, our rights don't come from, from men, they come from God. But, but that's birth starts in an understanding of, of, of this in the church. And I think that these two things are on parallel tracks because you can't have one without the other. And I actually believe that the church is always primary in this. However, the church is reforming. The world will reform behind that. And I think that history has proven to be true of that. But that is a big deal when you think about who gets to determine what is truth now. And I think also we'll see the technology plays a big part in this. It's one of the reasons why I'm not super upset about the advancements in AI. I'm not like, oh, my gosh, the world's going to end. I'm like, no, there's going to be another reformation. There's going to be a, any time you, you, you make the gap, the gap then in the transfer of information, that benefits the kingdom of God. And so in this case, you know, they were, they had invented the printing press. You know, they were able to translate the Bible. This all came right before this, but I mean, it sets the stage for this. They were able to translate the Bible into common man's language. I mean, that's a huge deal for just a regular individual person who was not clergy, who did not, you know, speak or read Latin. They could just read the word of God for themselves in their own language. I mean, just think about that. I mean, that's, that's a massive shift in the way that the power dynamics work in the world. And so the pilgrims are coming and the Puritans for that matter. And pretty much everybody that came at the beginning, they were coming out of that worldview, they were coming out of that cultural context. And so you see, though, even in their attempt to escape what they thought was a corrupt religious institution, they still had their own issues they had to deal with, and you saw some of that, like with the, the story of the, what was the woman's name? Who they, they, uh, And, and Hutchinson, and I'm like, I liked her. I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm a, she would have been in your house, church, sir, a hundred percent, but I thought about it. Well, that was the point I made earlier was that they, they love to escape the church of England, then they end up, that was kind of the point I was making about humans, when you get in leadership and you start doing those things, you end up kind of becoming the thing that you, you know, used to want to dis, disassociate yourself from, but yeah, that was the part to me that was interesting was cause it's developed on religious freedom. And they banned her and then Roger Williams, basically, because he was like charismatic, but it, it confused me cause it was, it wasn't a different, like they banished them because they were doing, it's kind of like what you said, what, what's a thord, you know, what has the authority? Is that scripture or is it someone's perspective? But it wasn't like they were trying to introduce a new, no, and, and, yeah, they, now they said she was blasphemous, but what they, but they, but here's the thing, that was because of second Timothy though, what part? Because they said women shouldn't teach. That was, no, it wasn't that as much as it was that she, no, well, no, but the part, but the way they got her, cause they couldn't get her on that cause she was, it was in her home and it wasn't like she was doing it in the, in the church and she was having a Bible study. She was very well educated. She knew the scriptures. She knew theology. She wasn't afraid. She wasn't afraid. So they pull her in to basically trial because she's doing this in her home and they, and they could not get her at first. If you remember, like they're trying to, they're trying to like corner her up, but she made a mistake and slipped in her comment. And she said something that I think what her and both her and Roger Williams, what the, what it was, was she indicated that somehow she may be receiving private revelation. Oh yeah, that's what it was. And so, which that just means like the God's, like, you may have said something was like, yeah, God, God spoke to me, which I don't, I mean, this is a, I mean, I would say there's no, there's no revelation outside of scripture. That's going to be authoritative authority in your life. It's going to supersede scripture, right? But to say that, I know, and we grew up, by the way, Al, you remember hearing that, the spirit only speaks through the word word. Yep. And the written word. And if you ever, and we didn't even teach that when I was a kid, like I didn't hear a teaching that the Holy Spirit and dwells, he dwells my body. I didn't hear that. And then if he did, then what does that even mean? And, but the spirit's role is much more than just inspiring the scriptures. I mean, it is that and that's huge. But the spirit, John says he does convict the world about sin. A judgment, a righteousness. I mean, so the spirit does end well and he does, he does put things on us. Now, I can't, if I can't come to you guys and say, Hey, the spirit told me that, you know, you need to give me a hundred and fifty dollars. Maybe like you could answer like your dad did. Well, he should have skipped the middleman and told me that I can't, I can't bind that authority on you. But I can tell you that the spirit does privately speak to people, particularly in the form of conviction. But once again, once again, Zach, it's the spirit, it's to me, the spirit of America. She wound up dying for her conviction. I mean, she was banished and I'm sure she could have went back and repented and said she was wrong and they probably would have kept her in the thing, but she stood her ground, she gets banished and then she gets killed in a raid. And once again, it's there's some, you are willing to die for what you believe in and that's what she did. She, she did not hold back, which that's why we're talking about her all these years later. I mean, because she showed that sort of fortitude, which I think was very powerful. You mentioned about revisionist history and I thought was interesting. We didn't say anything about Thanksgiving, which was a part of that early member was at 1622 after they'd survived that first, yeah, first winter. And I just thought that was intriguing what they said about it because, you know, Thanksgiving is still something we recognize to this day. And now of course, because people don't like a lot about things that have happened in America, both in that era and beyond, they're kind of just poo poo the whole holiday and it's like, well, it's a religious holiday. We don't believe in that. And it was found at a time when the indigenous people were mistreated and so then just kind of write it off. But I love the idea that they made a great point that the holiday itself wasn't as much about a religious holiday as it was a survival. Yeah. It was about alliances. It was about, we've come together to live. And I thought, even if you didn't believe in God or anything else, if you're an American and you're here, that's where celebrating, you know, now, you, you know, and the fact that they did it with a big three day feast, which we, we, we, yeah, taking it down to one day. I love that it was with deer and not Turkey. Yeah. They killed five deer. Exactly. I was thinking, you know, that makes our group paper about Commander people happy. But I just love the idea that survival was, was the first idea about Thanksgiving holiday. Of course they gave glory to God, but, you know, we've done that. We had a, when Bear turned five, my son, Bear, we had a bear's alive. Bear's five and he's a live birthday party. So because, because he was like, we'd like this kid's not going to survive. He's too dangerous. If there was anybody that needed to be celebrated yearly as bears. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't know that Thanksgiving was, it was more so founded on this survival. I love that. And I think that's a good reason to keep it going. That was cool. You know, whether you believe in God or not, the idea that we're still here, we're still trying. Uh, and because there were later atrocities by both sides, by Europeans, by indigenous people, by everybody, that we shouldn't just take something that's very important and just shove it away and say, we can't celebrate because there's been some bad stuff happening. There were bad stuff that happened every step of the way. I think that that's the, that's the story is that. Like the, it's, it is a broken, very broken like system and, and, and the history is broken. I mean, you read it. Like, I mean, I don't know when you guys are listening to the lecture, which is more, this was not like a lecture of this while this was like more like a documentary, but when they were talking about Ann Hutchinson, I mean, I, yeah, I was getting like, I could feel like myself getting angry. I was like, yeah, I wish you would have taken it to him. Yeah. Right. But, but the more you get into this course, what, what I think you see is it's like, yeah, there's a lot of broken patterns here. But you kind of see the evolution of the deconsolidation of power in, in the church, primarily leading the way for how we experience that politically. And it's not easy. If you've ever started anything, if you've ever planted a church or started a business or done anything, like, like it's great. Once you revolt against the thing that you think is Karat, then you go do the thing that you're going to do. And at first it's great. And then all of a sudden, guess what happens? Problems start to emerge. Yeah. Other power dynamics start to happen. And you got to figure, and it's, and the thing that you were revolting against and you thought you were going to create the utopia, it turns out you didn't, you're not going to create that either. And so you could just say, well, we should just not even try to ever reform. I don't think that's the answer. Cause you gotta allow, you gotta allow the room to grow. Right. I mean, like the reason there were only 41 signatures and there were 102 people on their boat is because none of the women got to sign. Well, we found out later that was a bad call. Yeah. You know, the women needed to be a part of the process. They died out there with everybody else and they were, they were putting their lives on the line. So we grew to that. We, the same when you talk about slavery and you talk about indigenous people and everything else that happened through those years of learning, no one is perfect on this earth. And so as a people, you have to learn how to grow into better decisions. And I think the founders did a great job for us to even grow more than they were. I mean, the idea is, don't you want the next generation? Don't you want your kids to be better than you were? I mean, I certainly do. I hope they take what I teach them and do better. Yeah. You know, not do worse. Well, yeah. My new on Thanksgiving was the people who were at the Thanksgiving gathering. You had the Native Americans. You had the pilgrims and then you had the strangers. So you kind of had three groups who were not Christian. Yeah. The Indians were Christians. Right. The strangers may or may not have been, right? But they came together and I think the pilgrims like hosted it. So thank God. And that's what we thank God too, because that's what we believe. But it wasn't like established as a Christian holiday. It was established as community of like we are all here. I thought that and they were probably up to our earlier point. They were Christianity was probably outnumbered in the group. I mean, I know it was because they're not the other people together. Yeah. I thought that by criticism on it was, I didn't think they gave the Indians, they say Indians, I'm going to say Indians. The Indians enough, I don't know, time and recognition. Yeah. And it, I felt like there was a little unfair because the way we kind of like learned history, I think in third grade was like. We Europeans came over and had this divine province to like. Conquer and colonize the slain expand and expand. And the Indians were like the antagonists to that. Right. But they were also so diverse. Like you had some that, yeah, we're scalping and raiding killing, but then you had some who were here at Thanksgiving and bringing them food and teaching them how to farm trains like for them. So it was like, it's, it's not like everybody was assigned. This did make me realize to like how diverse everybody involved in the first and we were injecting Europeans were injecting into their subsystem of what they were doing. Right. They already had their system of how they were working it out amongst themselves. And then we come in with a whole another, you know, agenda. Yeah, exactly. No, I thought that was a great point, John. Look, and I think you saw, I mean, it does kind of paint a different picture. It's not like everybody was bad in this situation, but I do, I did think it was interesting that I think it's in the next podcast, not this one, that then we sort of brought in a whole group of Europeans that sort of fought that way. And then it became even more violent, you know, and that's the way all the different weapons. Yeah, exactly. And I don't, I don't think that's a good thing. I think that's obviously a bad thing. And whenever you start going down the road of violence, war, death, I mean, then we're getting into satanic realm of how things operate. It's much better to not be that way. So I understand the struggle that we'll get into in the next podcast because that's an ongoing struggle to this day. I mean, we'd rather win somebody over by, you know, they're saying, yeah, that's an idea I'd like to live by. I mean, I'd rather convince you of something than just, you know, beat you into submission. You know, that just doesn't seem biblical. So if the, uh, and I'm trying to figure out how to word this question, but if the Puritans hadn't have come over when they did, and let's say for, let's say, for instance, Anne Hutchinson and like Roger Williams were more at the beginning with the pilgrims, would they have been banished for, for quote, unquote, blasphemy, or was that more so of the Puritans that kind of enforced that? Cause I know when that, when they kind of created the whole court system, it was a melting pot of those different things, but I don't know. What'd you all think about that? Yeah. I think what you're saying is the, it says are here pilgrims versus Puritans. This is our book. I'm, I'm reading our, our book we got about this. That's like extra study material, but the pilgrims, um, since they were kind of, they had the idea of like, we're totally separating from the church and the church isn't like the highest authority here. They weren't, they wouldn't have been the ones to say, like, uh, you're blasphemy, whereas the Puritans were like, we're still a part of the church. We think that the people in England are doing it wrong, but we're going to do the same thing just better. Yeah. And that's where the, like, that's what they still stuck to that authoritative narrative in governance and why they would banish her for blasphemy, whereas the pilgrims like wouldn't do that. But like Puritans and pilgrims, like the way I think they talked about the episode and the way I'm kind of reading it here, pilgrims is like, kind of uses like a broad term for like everybody who comes over basically. And then the Puritans were like the, that particular religious group. Religious group. Right. That was seeking that. And it did kind of become the same thing. Don't forget to sign up to take the course with us for free at Unashamed for Hillsdale. I think the story, I mean, I'll just kind of reiterate where I think this is headed and I know it's headed because we're living it right now. That the pathway is, is tattered, you know, the pathway to freedom and liberty in the evolution of the American system is not a perfect one, but it is certainly an incredible story that we're getting a journey on here in this course on colonial America. So this is just the beginning of, you know, the next six episodes that we're going to be on this journey, traveling into the 250th year of America, which is absolutely crazy to think about what has happened in 250 years that started with really with 41 Puritans, excuse me, 41 pilgrims and 61 strangers on a boat called the Mayflower. And here we are all these years later. I would say that the, that the thing's grown quite a bit right now. I'd say it worked out pretty well. And the tension between, I love the way they put it, the tension between grace and governance is still a tension. That was good. Yeah. Join us every Friday for Unashamed Academy powered by Hillsdale College. Make sure to go to UnashamedforHillsdale.com and sign up. It's no cost to you. That's UnashamedforHillsdale.com. And don't miss an episode of the Unashamed podcast by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.