Producer-Director Relationships w/Mr. Jonathan Burns - Just Shoot It 513

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Hey, welcome to the 513th episode of Just Shoot It, a podcast about filmmaking, screenwriting and directing. This episode is brought to you by patron Nancy Hakohen. I'm Matt Enlow.

1:11

And I'm Warren Kaplan. And today we have producer Jonathan Burns on the podcast. He is a producer that both, both you have worked with. He is really fun. He's really great. And we thought that there was probably a good amount of like, producer, director, type of relationship topics that we can talk to him about. And I, I think we proved ourselves correct.

1:21

Yeah, yeah. It was a really informative conversation. It's great because you and I have both worked with him relatively recently. Oren, you just wrapped something with him and I feel like I shot something that I just posted about actually today. Yeah, same like, yeah, relatively recently. Super fun, you know, easy to talk to a great guy. I do want to say it sort of sounds like we set ourselves up to just get complimented for an hour.

1:41

And I mean, he did compliment us a lot, but I do think it was about the things that maybe that we do that maybe other people.

2:05

Yes.

2:13

Would be.

2:14

Yeah.

2:15

Let me, let me tell you a very funny story before we get into John. I, I, I have a director friend that you also know, and they're working with a new cinematographer and that cinematographer did a ton of prep, made all these Google Slide docs with like lighting plots and references and shot deck things. And for. This is for a, a short project.

2:16

Okay. Like a short film, you mean?

2:36

Or like, I think it's a commercial or like a campaign or something.

2:37

Not a passion project is what I'm asking.

2:40

Yes. Not a passion project.

2:42

Great. Okay.

2:43

And it's this director's like, I think second time working with this cinematographer and he did this. He did that same thing on the previous job too. And this director was like, hey, maybe I should send this document to some other cinematographers. I know, just as a little bit of like, hey, just so you know, this is what another. I thought it was cool and super helpful and, you know, so it's. It's weird. It's not exactly like, hey, you should do this. It's not with that thing, but like, hey, look at this cool thing that this other drink. It's like if I. It's like if you were working on an agency side thing and you worked with some director that made some really interesting previs. Document or marching orders or something, makeup references, whatever. And you said, oren, check out this thing. You know, this is super helpful.

2:43

Which, honestly, frankly, we do. Do you know what I mean? I feel like we have a handful of people where if. If somebody came in with like a next level, like previz or method or something. Absolutely. We would tell each other about it.

3:27

Yeah. And it's tricky. I remember I had, you know, there's a cinematographer I worked with that was telling me how cool it was that the director edited, like all footage.

3:40

We'd probably say it on the podcast too. Yeah, like, it would be.

3:47

But we don't know who listens to the podcast. Like, sure, people. But yeah, a cinematographer I worked with was like, oh, this director I worked. Just worked with, he was editing all the footage the night of the shoot and showing it to the client and agency, like the next morning. And everyone was getting so stoked on it. And I kind of felt like he was telling me that I needed to do that too. And I kind of went into this and I was like, I just am too tired at the end of a shoot to just go back to the hotel room and edit everything, you know.

3:51

And I think you and I both are. Would be victim of, like, oh, well, I don't have the music library or like. Like, I don't want to undersell something that I believe is going to work because I didn't have enough time to finesse it the way it needs to be.

4:14

Right.

4:27

To put it.

4:27

Sign effect. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And the examples, by the way, that this cinematographer told me about did have a preset song that the director was really trying to like, sell through to the client. So, yeah, I don't know. It is interesting when you're like, oh, this other director does this great thing. You should do it too. And then you maybe do take it personally for a second, but then you're like, oh, wait, you know that, that's good to know. So I think with Jonathan, there's a lot of that where we're like, hey, isn't this thing I do a good thing?

4:28

Directors do you do want to. Yeah. Like there's a part of you that's like, oh, I want you to say you do it better than. Not better than, but like, oh, this is great for this reason, you know?

4:56

Yeah. Now the biggest bummer in life in what we do is that there's a lot of really good directors.

5:08

Really good directors. Yeah.

5:13

And so Jordan Brady always says it's like, you know, the rising tide ships or something to that effect, which, you know, I try to, I try to embrace.

5:14

I think that's true. But Jordan, that means that we're all making 60 page motion graphics decks now because of that Rising tide or Rising tide or arms race. Tomato, tomato. But you know, you bring up something else that I wanted to pitch to you before we talked to Jonathan this weekend. I had a last minute casting emergency. So I texted you and Carlin. I said, hey, yes, I'm looking for good people, blah, blah, blah. I found someone.

5:23

Is it because you lost someone?

5:49

It's because of creative changes. Two new characters were added last minute. Oh.

5:50

Oh, I didn't realize.

5:53

Yeah, yeah. I didn't give you guys a ton of context. I basically just was like, sos, I need good people. Here's the spec. When you both came through. I think I ended up casting someone that Carlin recommended who I also auditioned a handful of times and went out to somebody that you recommended and they turned me down. I'm sorry. Yeah, that's okay.

5:54

Was it a male actor?

6:12

No, no, it was not. But what it made me think of was like, oh, I'm so lucky to have people I can text. Like, hey, do you have good recommendations? Also it's really nice to be like shooting in la. And you're like, oh, that's right. Like, I do know lots of good actors and my, I'm refilling that bank of people who I know I can call in and I know will be really funny. Whereas it has kind of been depleted because people a got like old enough that they're in kind of a different class. Like they're SAG now and things like that. Like this was like very much in that zone of like I needed like ucb, people who were really funny but new and weren't union yet. Basically, like those, those Jobs that like support young people so that they can level up eventually. And anyway, it made me think, oh, should we put together like a, like a group chat? Like a director group chat. Like an SOS line.

6:14

Yes.

7:07

I mean, you know that I just like love talking non stop.

7:08

Yeah.

7:12

Who listen to me.

7:12

Yeah. But like, like a WhatsApp. But we'd have to like, we'd have.

7:13

To really like curate the people and.

7:17

Make the rules clear. Also, like, this is like mostly an sos. This is like, hey, here's the clear ask. And you have to be, you have to chime in.

7:20

Do you know, I guess my pitch that you will probably not be into is why not just make it a group chat that doesn't have to be an sos. Only thing like I'm. I keep hearing that group chats are the new like bulletin board social media that so many people are like not wanting to like converse online.

7:29

Yes. The reason there's all these group chats.

7:47

And I'm not a part of any group chat.

7:49

So that. So this is the reason why you're pitching a group chat. Group chats are cool, but like, if they're too general interest, I'm on like a couple dad WhatsApp group chats basically. And I'm just like, are they active?

7:51

Because I've been on. Yeah. And the dads never talk about anything.

8:03

They're hyperactive. It's too much. I keep. Because I've turned off my WhatsApp notifications.

8:06

Oh, you can just mute that.

8:13

Oh, I know.

8:15

Conversation.

8:15

That's what I should do. But I haven't done it. Anyway, hit us up if you think that's a good idea or if you have ways to augment it or like a good method for it. If you participate in group chats and have found them fulfilling in some way, let us know because I think it could be cool to like have just like.

8:16

Like how many people was a perfect size? Like 10.

8:29

It's less about the size to me and more about the specificity. Like it was important that I text LA directors because I only could get LA actors right. And I needed people who are funny. So like, okay, the list of people who I can bug them a Saturday afternoon who know lots of funny actors in this demo. Like not like Ficor, Non Union, all of that stuff. Like not, not too, too established. And also who like, no, I'm good for a favor. Do you know, like that list gets shorter and shorter, but that makes the chat much more effective.

8:32

Yeah. You know what if it's 10 LA based comedy directors. I mean, I texted you, you and Carlin about, you know, costume designer.

9:08

Sure.

9:16

Yeah, same in the same vein. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

9:16

Maybe, maybe, maybe we. Maybe it's a franchise. Maybe there's a whole Just shoot it.

9:20

And just shooting group chats.

9:25

Yeah, that could be cool.

9:26

Discord when I don't even know.

9:28

Yeah, well, that's the thing.

9:30

I'll just have my Clodbot call your cloud bot until they do.

9:31

They do do discords. But then that's a whole other ecosystem that we have. Like you've got slack, text, email, all that stuff. We don't want to deal with that shit.

9:35

Yeah, all right.

9:45

Anyway, WhatsApp, I'm sure people have suggestions. Hit us up. Just shoot@podmail.com if you want in on this and if you can help structure it in some way. And with that, we'll tell people about our Patreon.

9:46

Speaking of friends, directors, country folks and.

9:57

Other, should we make it Patreon specific? Well, that is a community management tool, you know.

10:01

Yeah. I mean, I guess you don't want.

10:06

To make it pay to play. I don't either. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, fair enough.

10:09

I want everyone to bring something, be able to contribute something and get something out of it. But, but, but our Patreon, we do want our patrons regardless, because we love having you. We have. Did we? Is it okay to mention that, like, we. Some people from, you know, talking about your We Funder campaign came in and.

10:13

Sure, yeah.

10:30

We funder.com bad feeling movie.

10:31

Bad feeling. Just bad feeling.

10:35

Bad feeling. We funded.com Bad Feeling Matt's project. So we appreciate the love. We appreciate people listening and helping out and being on the journey with us. And if you want to do that, even at a small level, you can go to patreon.com just shoot it. Pod. We love it. It's super helpful and we appreciate it. So that's all we got to say about that.

10:36

That's right. Now, the original Mr. Burns.

10:55

But what's funny, my mom was actually elementary school and high school teacher for her entire career, like during the height of like the 90s and early knots and just got it non stop. And she was Mrs. Burns. And they're like, oh, is your husband Mr. Burns? And like a little Jonathan.

11:00

You.

11:14

You will. You will do that every once in a while, right?

11:15

You'll put your hands together if it's excellent.

11:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go.

11:19

How long has that been going on? Is your dad's name Mr. Burns?

11:20

It is. And as is my grandfather's Funnily enough.

11:23

Well, so I. So I'm working with Jonathan right now. I just worked with him on another job last week, and we have a shoot next week, and we're in the middle of production, and he's. Him and I are stressed out. He's more stressed out than me because I feel like. Because everyone knows we have the podcast, that I have permission to be like, hey, I need to take an hour for the podcast. I'll call you later. But since Jonathan does not have a podcast, he has to be like, yep, I'll get right back to you on that email. As he.

11:27

So we understand. Understand if you text people in the middle of this conversation.

11:50

I'm trying, but I was. We needed to record. And I mentioned to you, Matt, that Jonathan and I were scouting yesterday and that we had this conversation about, like, what makes a good producer and what makes a good director. And I thought it was really interesting. And you're like, oh, I love Jonathan. Let's definitely have him on the podcast. And so he's on today. But when I mentioned it to Jonathan, he told me that. That you had told a. A story about him on the podcast.

11:54

I did.

12:17

That made him really happy. Do you remember? Do you remember that story?

12:18

You know what's funny is that I forgot. And then we. Jonathan and I worked again together again later, and he was like, oh, thank you so much. And it remind. It jogged my memory, but it holds true. I remembered. I always remembered the anecdote. I never remember what I say on the show. But essentially, Jonathan gives good client.

12:20

Right.

12:41

Like, you're really good at, like, at lunch when we're all, like, stuck sitting around, and I'm like, oh, should I sit with the DP and the ad, or do I sit with agency and client? And Jonathan kept it to be clear.

12:41

You would love to kind of have your own space and decompress without having to put on a show.

12:55

Yeah. Yeah. Oftentimes I like to go call my wife and check in and then take a little second and then go tap dance a little bit, make sure everyone's feeling really good, and then also circle up with the crew to make sure that we have a good plan for the second half the day.

12:59

Right.

13:15

So there's a lot of stuff that happens at lunch. I wish it was more leisurely, honestly.

13:15

I know.

13:19

You know, what's the deal?

13:19

Hour lunch or half hour lunch? John, what's your take?

13:21

I always vote for an hour lunch if I can, and I take it. It's the old ad rule of Thumb. Because if you do a half hour lunch, it's truly a 45 minute because you have to get through last man. But if you call an hour, it kind of bakes that in and you save time on the back end. So our lunch, like, buys you more time in your schedule. And then people tend to be like, a little happier. And a lot of people, like, finish lunch and go start, like, getting their stuff organized or like, slowly ease back into it anyway, so I feel like it. It buys you a little time on paper.

13:23

It's a good tip. Good tip.

13:53

Okay.

13:55

Sorry, Matt. So you were saying so.

13:55

Well, yeah, basically, you know, there's all sorts of different types of producers and, you know, many different versions of a great producer. But I was just struck by it, I think also because I. Sometimes you're in the mood to like, be social during lunch and kind of entertain them and keep them all in a good mood. But I certainly believe that in the world of commercials, that's a customer service sort of space. That the decision and the opinion of, like, how the shoot went kind of. It gets locked in by the end of the shoot day, for sure. Or how good the spot will be. Gets locked in at the end of the shoot day, I should say. So, like, whether the spot's actually going to be good or not, people's minds are made up well before that. And, like, things really start to cement around lunch. Are we on time? Is everyone feeling really good? You know, those sorts of things. And so it's nice to have an ally to be there to, like, make sure that people are chatty and laughing and having a nice time and, you know, like, you know, just in high spirits and that, that isn't all on my shoulders. Not that it ever really is. But it's nice to know that you've got somebody who's very good at it.

13:57

Right? So John. So you don't have to entertain the clients at lunch because John is really good at it. And I think you used the term for that. What didn't. What was it? John, He.

15:05

I want this, like, on my gravestone. And I remember these words so, so well, and I loved it. But you're like, you're like this guy, Jonathan Burns. He has next level small talk. Yes, I'll take it. I'll take it.

15:14

Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. Because we don't know each other that well yet, right?

15:25

Like, I think this was our first shoot together.

15:29

It was. It was our first shoot together. But I was referring to, like, we don't know the client. We don't know the agency. We've met them a few, few times. And now we're all having a big group lunch together. And you know, like, oh, boy, I sure love the couscous from Mendocino Farms. Only goes so far, right? So, like, it is really good. It is good.

15:31

It's really good. Usually where my conversation starts.

15:49

Yeah, yeah. You're like, is that saffron Turmeric? But you know, like, so just having, keeping the conversation moving is really helpful. It's really valuable. For sure.

15:52

You kind of have to. I just realized this now. You kind of have to be a little bit of a foodie, maybe not like a super sophisticated one, to be a good producer, commercial producer, just to.

16:00

Talk about the lunch.

16:09

I mean, you have to make sure that there's good, crafty, that the client dinner is in a good place that you can recommend stuff. I mean, I remember when I was working with a famous group way back in the day, they'd be like, oren did it. Did the client talk about, like any wine or snacks or anything that they like. We'd love to, like, put that in there, you know, send them like a little gift package with those things. So it's. It takes it away. If you don't care about food, you're not going to be like, oh, the griot gruyere is way better than the Brie.

16:10

So true. And actually, like, just made me think of two things. Like, the client. Entertainment is such a good thing, is such an important thing because you're kind of choosing the vibe that you're going to serve to these people. And to your point, like, it's these strangers who you are working very, very intimately and closely and long hours with for like a short burst of time and then you go away. But you're trying to create these relationship to help everything go smoothly. And it's like, what are you going to serve to them? How are you going to make it work? And I always like to say I look at my crew kind of like a recipe as well, and everyone is like a different seasoning. And it's like, how do I balance the flavors? Who or the flavors? Who's. Who's bringing the heat? Who's bringing the sweet? And like. And I like looking at it like that.

16:37

It's funny, we were just talking, Jonathan, I think yesterday or the day before, when you. When you're on a project and you're scouting in la, you spend a lot of time with the producer. And then we also spent like six days in Seattle on two Separate.

17:19

Yeah.

17:31

You spend all your time with them and then all. And then when it's the shoot day, you never see them.

17:31

Yeah, you see them at lunch. Right.

17:35

I probably spent about seven hours talking to Jonathan about the virtues of the Delta Amex.

17:37

I'm pretty sure you're paid by the word, but.

17:42

Yeah, but, but I think one, one thing I said that I like about you is that you. There is a balance. There's some producers that just want easy to work with crew, a DP that.

17:44

Just happy with Fast, fast, fast has their own.

17:53

You tell them no, they're like, no worries. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can have that with a production design, with a costume, with makeup, you know, And I feel like you are, of course, would love that. But you also appreciate someone that is talented and has good taste and is good at their job, which I think to me there's like, there's a production coordinator PM that is now just changed their title and is producing, but really it's just kind of going through the checklist. And then there's the producer that's like very aware of what we're trying to build together from like. And, you know, not to get too highfalutin, but from like an artistic point of view, you know, and that sometimes a certain crew member might be really nice, but they might be the wrong fit for this job, you know, and that, that's, I think, kind of like a skill of a good producer. And you've been doing it for how long now? 15 years?

17:57

Not that long actually in the grand scheme of things. But I came into the industry.

18:44

Huh?

18:48

Yeah. So I've been in LA six months, guys. How am I doing? No, I, I moved to LA in 2017 after being in Japan almost 10 years. And so I, like, lived another life, but I was in sales and finance and it was skills that I thought led into producing really well. And so I came in a bit older than the average, you know, new film grad and kind of had my, I, my sight set in very early. Like, oh, I want to do, I want to produce, I want to do production. And I came up through the production ladder and did the coordinator and the PM thing and then quickly came up to producing because I was a little older, a little more experienced, and I just kind of. The sales side of it clicks. Like the people side of it clicks.

18:48

Sure.

19:27

The small talk does. I mean, honestly, to me don't. Wouldn't you agree, Matt, that the difference between like a PM and a producer is the small talk?

19:27

Yeah, you know, There is. There is that. There is that aspect of it. You know, I. I remember once talking to a producer who referred to me as very client facing. And I think it's kind of the same thing. Right. Like, there are gifted, you know, producers who just don't have that way with people. And, you know, a lot of your job is going to be saying no in a nice way or. Or showing them what they really like about the thing that you could pull off based off of their budget. Right. Because agencies and clients come in with a lot of really big ideas that can be really cool that maybe are out of scope. And so sometimes you have to be the bad guy early on, especially if there's not, like, really a grounded agency producer on the other side who's kind of tempering those expectations, you can be stuck being the bad guy. And so I think that companies do need someone who understands all the logistical stuff for sure, but that also can. You can trust a person like Jonathan to, like, handle uncomfortable situations with some skill and grace. And everyone still has a nice time. Right?

19:35

Yeah. It's funny, sometimes you're the anger translator too, right? I'll be like, they're asking for twice as much stuff for half the money. Like, just tell them no. And then you'll be like, I will tell them that, like, we have a different idea that's actually really good.

20:39

See, you could do it, Oren.

20:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:53

I think I'd be an okay producer. I don't know.

20:54

I think our egos are too big.

20:57

You produced a ton, Matt.

20:59

Yeah, I know, and I hate it because my ego is too big.

21:00

Well, so I guess just to get into the crux of what I thought was interesting, you know, I told you some things I really like about producers, which, you know, we talked a lot about the POD and the podcast, especially our episode with a different producer with Kelly. But I'd asked you what kind of traits you like in the director, and do you remember any of the things that you told me?

21:03

Yeah, I. I have a couple that I think really stuck out. And, you know, coming into this, I was thinking about working with both of you and kind of your own personalities and your styles and what I really like, and I think I really.

21:20

What makes me better than Oren is.

21:32

Great. Now that we're done with that list.

21:34

What makes just a quick beef and get it.

21:36

Yeah, yeah.

21:38

No, and because I think everyone is very individual and I think, like, producers, like directors, like, there's probably a hundred different ways you could do it, and none of them is necessarily better than the other if you're all producing good success.

21:39

Right.

21:52

And it's. I think a lot of producing and directing is bringing your personal strengths and like what you're naturally good at to the table to serve the greater purpose of what we're all trying to achieve. And I think that, you know, for me, I can small talk chat your ear if I need to or whatever.

21:52

Right.

22:08

So I was reflecting on that and like thinking about some of the stuff Oren and I talked about. And so this is kind of what I came up with. And since Matt got the bleep, I'm gonna give. I'm gonna give him the. The first go on this. Yeah, no, I was reflecting on it and you know, we've done a couple shoots real so far. And I like, you're obviously very experienced and talented, but I think as a producer, I love that you as a director are really good with client and you kind of even just already.

22:08

But.

22:34

But beyond just being good with them, you're very communicative. And I remember specifically on these shoots, and a lot of my perspective is coming from the branded and the commercial side of the world. That's kind of where a lot of my experience has been. And so a lot of my time on set is I'm sitting in this video village with a client. It's, you know, this is their baby. They've been, we've been on it for a couple of weeks. They've been on it for a couple months probably, right. They're planning, they're getting budget, they're spending money, they're excited. It's their campaign. And so we're here to keep them happy. But you, like, in between every setup, you would leave set, walk to where we were sitting and just check in and just be like, hey, how was that? Like, you know, this is what we just did. This is what we're going to do. Any questions, any concerns? And I'm used to doing that pretty solo. But you were just, you had a very good bedside manner with them. And I think like, the extension of that is also just realizing, at least on the branded side, like, yes, we bring in the production company, the agency and the director to elevate an idea and like, you know, find and define and execute a vision and make something that's creative and memorable and amazing. But at the end of the day, we are a service industry and we're servicing a client who's bringing their budget and they want to something. And so you need to under. You need to understand that push and pull and like, where you can push on the creative to make it your own, but also like where to listen and just understand that you're servicing your client and how to make sure that they're happy with the experience and what is being delivered. So, so that was like kind of a two parter and I think you're really good at that.

22:34

Well, I think also part of that is like, if you do have an idea or an agenda conspiring with them, I think really when it works, it works. You know what I mean? Like, it's all of our idea, no matter where it came from. But like we're all trying to make it as good as possible and as long as we're all pointed in the same direction, like we have share that vision, then we're good to go. You know, I think also sometimes, sometimes it's not their baby, you know what I mean? I think once or twice, Jonathan, you and I, like, it was real quick and they were kind of distracted and so.

24:04

And they're looking to you to kind of solve it for them, right?

24:38

Yes, 100%, exactly. Yeah. I think like once or twice, Jonathan, you and I have been like on jobs where people at the end were like, oh, this is good, actually.

24:40

It's so true.

24:50

Right?

24:51

It's like they finally showed up and.

24:52

Like, they're like, ah, I get it now. And you're like, yeah, yeah, for sure.

24:53

Yeah.

24:58

And.

24:58

And it's nice when they give us the latitude to run with it and the trust to run with it and, you know, create something good.

24:59

Yeah, yeah, that is it. That is a good first one. And I'm glad you started with Matt because I do think, you know, Matt and I have only done this podcast for 11 years, but we've, I don't know, we've like almost never been on set together, so it's hard to know. But I, I do bet Matt is better at that stuff than I am. And I. Yesterday I mentioned to Jonathan, kind of as a joke, that I'm like a very complaining director. Right. You know, and it's all relative to all the directors he's worked with. And he was like, yeah, you're one of the complainer ones. So I think for years I was kind of like avoiding the client because I didn't want to come in and be like, man, that dolly move could have been a little bit better, but we got it, let's move on. So I thought it's better to my.

25:05

Standards, but I know it's up to yours.

25:47

I thought it Better just to not say anything. And I had a big explosion was during, like, 2020, end of 2020, I shot this thing where, you know, the client was all on zoom, and I, like, didn't even check in with them at all because they were driving me crazy, you know, And I'm like. I'm just. It's better to not say anything. Say something, you know, contentious, but now. But I do think the. The charm of the complaining director is, like, wearing off, and I should probably be a little more positive and check in. I mean, I do very much care about what the agency thinks, and I want them to like things. You know, I wouldn't sell yourself short.

25:48

Because I've been on many, like, an agency or a client pitch call with you, and you do a very good job in there. And, like, sometimes pitching ideas that aren't even yours.

26:20

Well, yeah.

26:29

That you defend, but you do it really well.

26:30

That is my super weakness. What's the problem? What's the opposite of a superpower? Yeah, I'm really good at pitching ideas that we cannot execute.

26:32

Sure.

26:39

Yeah.

26:40

Client agency folks, please pretend you didn't hear that.

26:40

To shift it off of. Of Orin and I a little bit and just kind of. To make it a little bit more general and also make about me still as well, is I sometimes fear that I am, like, a little. Like, I don't want to come off as needy or unsure when I'm checking in with them. Is that something that you see in directors or is there. What are the. Here's a better way to say it. What are the ways that directors can lose the confidence of the client?

26:43

And have you. Have you seen that?

27:09

Have you seen that? Yeah, yeah.

27:10

And what was the director's name?

27:12

My brain is just. I feel like I've blacked it all out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

27:16

But, you know, there must have been moments where, like, you're hearing, like, the things that we're scared of, the whispering of, like, I don't know, or like, someone steps in or, you know, I.

27:20

Think what's funny, where my mind immediately went is I loved you coming in and doing that, because you did not come off as needy or unsure. You always came in with this, like, calm, reassuring, like, hey, we've got this. I'm keeping you engaged in, like, what we're doing out there type of thing. And it was very engaging and very confident. Right. I think if you, as a director do not feel confident or positive or, like, if you're feeling anxious about what's going on, you kick the can. To your producer, let them deliver the bad news. You know what I mean? That's what I.

27:27

That's great. Yeah.

27:58

We get to be the bad guys. We say no, like you were saying. And so if you're having a bad time, your ultimate responsibility is to deliver upon this vision that we've all been prepping. We've gathered crew, we've gathered resources. We're here on this day. You're here to, like, execute on that. Right. And so don't. Don't add the client burden on top of that. If you don't feel confident with it. If you don't feel good with it. Yeah, because it's just going to stress you out more. And people are smart. People are good at, like, sensing if someone's stressed or not having a good time or whatever, and then they take it and they run with it and make it maybe bigger than it actually even is.

27:59

And.

28:34

Yeah, no one wants that because like.

28:34

You said, it reminds me of when Matt and I, when I was complaining about productions, and then Matt was like, yeah, it sounds like you don't have a good producer. And it was exactly for those types of things where I felt like I was carrying the whole load. And the producer. Yeah, I work with really amazing producers. They kind of take that burden of the. The relationship stress out of the equation, and I get to just figure out, like, okay, where does this flower pot go and how does this performance work? You. You. You mentioned prep fleetingly, and I'm gonna use that as a segue.

28:36

What are.

29:06

We talked a little bit about some what. Something directors. Some things directors do in prep. I mean, you know, I think like, 80% of a director's job is. Is done before the shoot.

29:06

They.

29:15

What are kind of some of the different, like, good ways and not so good ways. You've seen directors prep for shoots, and.

29:16

Just in fairness, I'm going to loop you in and Oren. And this was already my plan, but you're one of the more complaining directors I know. No, no, you're. And what I mean is you're stubborn and you're opinionated, and I mean those in very positive ways. And you come in with a vision like you. You really sink your teeth into whatever project we're doing. You put your mark on it, you put your vision on it, and you really help. It evolved to what you see it as in a very positive way. And I think that as a soul is what a director does, is they see the vision and they try and, like, get everyone on board with their vision. Right. And I think with that, like, you're pretty decisive, and I, as a producer, love it when a director is decisive and. And especially on the shoot day. But like you were saying in prep, and to me, I want to prep twice and shoot once, if that makes sense. Like, let's spend the time in prep. Let's think about it from all the different angles. Let's say I. I personally, I love, like, a good. I love talking through a situation and being like, okay, let's look at the possibilities, and I'll say the bad ones and immediately be like, no, we can't do that because of this. And, like, I'll see the error, but it's nice for me to at least talk it out.

29:23

So I love it.

30:30

Let's explore all the ideas. Let's look at the angles. Like, what can we do? Even if it's too expensive, let's just talk about it to brainstorm.

30:30

Right.

30:36

Spend all your time prepping. When we get to the shoot day, I personally like to be a little more prescriptive. Let's go in having a plan. Let's know what our end product is going to be. Like. This is what storyboards are for. This is what, you know, boarding everything out, making a plan. Let's go in with a plan and let's shoot it. And of course, there's going to be wiggle room. You got to give room for performance and improvisation and this, that, and the other. But you should know, like, 90%, like, what you're going to do that day and on the day, if there are changes, like, directors need to make a choice, like, make a decision. Clock is ticking. We're burning dollars. Daylight's going away, and you don't get that back. And I've worked with some people in the past who just want to hum and haul and, like, oh, what if we explore this thing that we didn't talk about, or even worse, that we did talk about. Decide was a bad idea, but I'm going to bring it back up again.

30:37

Like, on set, you're saying people are kind of trying to find things on set.

31:24

Yeah, finding things on set. And so I think as a director, if you can just be decisive and just really own what your vision is, and even if you don't, I mean, like, just have confidence in your own taste, in your own style. And I think it's always good to ask for feedback and ask for other opinions, but in the end, like, the director is leading the charge, right? Is leading the ship. And so director's got to direct so if you can be decisive and really just fight for your vision and fight for.

31:28

Yeah.

31:54

Your creative, then it'll be a better day.

31:54

Yeah. My. I think I talked about this on the podcast before, but my A thing that I've learned later in my career about decisiveness is that if it's a really hard decision, like between A and B, should you wear the dress or the skirt? Or should we tune it in the living room or in the dining room? If it's a hard decision to make, it means that they're both good and bad in certain ways and you should just choose one. Like, it's way more valuable to choose one than to over deliberate, especially when you have a crew of like 50 people waiting for you to decide.

31:56

Anecdotally, there's a little psychology trick. Sorry, real quick. If you're having a little bit of trouble making a choice, especially if it's an A or B, there's a trick that in your mind, mentally decide a, I've decided 100% we're going to go with A, and then just see how you react and see how your gut reacts to that decision. And it really, like, helps you tap into your subconscious and what you really want. And so if you decide, oh, we're going to go with the living room, and you're like, yeah, no, that feels good. Or you're like, oh, we're going to go with this skirt, and you're like, no, I still don't like it. Then, like, go for the other one and then it can just help you, like, move through a decision and get past the paralysis.

32:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. So I think one of the great luxuries and privileges of doing so many commercials lately is the prep, right? Like, being able to, like, have the time, the resources to really kind of dig in, find all that stuff. And I think through the podcast, I think we both have really kind of developed a pretty rigorous prep regimen. Are there things that you see in directors that they think are important that aren't actually important to you? All right, like from prep.

32:59

Like prep point of view.

33:32

Yeah, exactly.

33:34

Yeah, yeah. Mood boards or something like that.

33:34

I send animatics and. And most of the time, no one watches them, cares at all. You know, And I know that they're. They're essential to me, but I don't think. I don't know if they are.

33:38

That. I think they're so helpful to you for making them, you know, and you really find timing issues. I mean, but I. I have the same experience. No one really watches.

33:46

No one cares.

33:55

Yeah, I, I think everyone does care. They're just like, don't comment on it. Like, I love the antibiotic because it's the first time we. Again, I like a plan and a prescription. I'm like, oh, I totally get what we're doing now. Like, this is, this is what we're making, right?

33:55

Yeah.

34:08

What's funny, it's usually not the problem of directors doing too much that's not helpful. It's maybe them, like, not engaging enough during prep.

34:08

What's an example of. Of someone not engaging? You told me one yesterday. I'll just give you as a tea, which is sometimes you said you've worked with directors that don't really talk to the cinematographer much before they get the set.

34:17

Yeah, exactly. And I think that's a good one. And I think to me, every, every position on set is important 100%. No, no question there. But the ones that tend to get a little bit more prep or start a little bit early and help shape the plan are director, dp, production design, and then wardrobe.

34:28

Right.

34:46

Like, those are the, the four people that I talk to the earliest.

34:46

Right.

34:50

And the director needs to be in touch with them. Especially, like, DP is how is it going to look? And art is how's it going to look? And I've had directors that again, maybe just lean on are either checked out or too busy or, you know, sometimes don't get paid for prep or don't get enough prep or something like that. And, you know, production companies pay your directors. They work hard, sure. But yeah, just them not being checked in. And again, in the commercial world, you know, not every commercial you shoot is going to be your magnum opus. And not everyone is going to be like a world turner, but for the, for that, you know, those weeks, that month that you're working on it, like, it needs to be a priority. You need, like, we work in an industry that's all about reputation and all about your special sauce. Right. Especially for a director and your creative style and what you bring to the table. And part of that is, you know, who are the keys that you're bringing on, how do you work with them? What is the plan that you're creating with this person? And if you're not adding that special sauce boss, like, why are we hiring you and I? And then it also just leads to a messier shoot day where you're like, oh, let's just find it on the day. And then you're four hours OT and behind and not getting what you Need. And so make the animatics. Animatics are always great. And just rely with your crew. And also, like, it's such a collaborative industry. And so. And like, the special alchemy is when you get two people with maybe differing opinions and you, like, hit them together and then they make a new idea that's even better. And I think that's kind of the beauty of it. So, like, rely on your crew, work with your crew and just be engaged.

34:50

That's what it is. Interesting how some directors, like, they were, if they were making their passion project short film, that's a script that they wrote, that they're financing themselves. Like, there's no way, you know, there's not a one in a million chance that they would not care which dog we cast in the scene. But in a commercial sometimes, and I'm bringing this up because we have a dog and I've barely given opinions on it, but. But sometimes, you know, the producer will just be like, well, I talked to the animal trainer. Here's some options. And sometimes the director will just be like, yeah, just you. You choose. You know, I mean, I've definitely been guilty of doing that with background actors, it's like, Oren, here's the hundred photos you also need. Have storyboards due tomorrow. And you have this and locations. And we're doing the casting at 8am which of these background actors do you want to be in the scene? And then you're like, I don't know, just choose 15, you know, diverse actors. And then you get the 15 on set and you're like, God, I shouldn't.

36:21

And the one you were like, I like this one. And the rest you pick. That's the crazy one. That's the one with, like, the screenplay that they're showing everyone and, you know, they're chainsaw with a camera or something.

37:11

Yeah, no, it's so true.

37:22

You've made it on time for the McDonald's breakfast menu. You think to yourself, finally, I could start my day with my perfect breakfast. But what if breakfast could be even more perfect with the hot honey sausage, egg biscuit? It finally is, is this won't last forever, so go to McDonald's and get it while you can.

37:26

No, and I was just gonna say with that. And like, you are busy and I get. I think triaging your priorities is kind of part of it. And as a producer, I don't mind if you kick some stuff back to me, but a lot of times, like, I'll bring it to you as like, first writer refusal. Like, hey, this technically falls in your world. Do you have an opinion on it? And saying, hey, I don't have a strong opinion, like, you choose is totally acceptable to me. But I like hearing that, I guess. Or like, hey, I'm too busy. Like, if we need an answer right now, like, just grab some type of thing.

37:49

You know what I mean?

38:20

Because if they're.

38:21

This probably plays out the most directly when it comes to hiring crew. When you're like, hey, do you have a costume designer you want us to hire? Do you want me to recommend someone? You know? Yeah.

38:21

So that. Speaking of. Of good things. That's the right thing to say. Hey, I've got a costume, you know, do you have someone you want to work with? If not, I have recommendations. That's per. Perfect music to my ears sometimes.

38:30

What's the not good thing?

38:43

Sometimes. You alluded to the. The four, you know, pillars of that. Of the table.

38:44

Right.

38:50

You're like the creative key members.

38:51

Yeah. Dp, Production, designer, wardrobe, and who was the other. The one more. And I guess in the direction. Yeah, yeah. I would throw casting in there as well.

38:53

Yeah. You know, storyboard, artist. There's some other.

39:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

39:06

The list goes on. Because everyone's.

39:07

Yeah, yeah. Everyone's important. Right, Right, exactly. And sometimes. And I get it, but sometimes I just inherit one. Right. It's a blind date. Right. Of any of those. Of those key members. And like, oftentimes it's for a good reason, you know, like, oh, we've got a really good working relationship with this person. Or, you know, they're already vetted five.

39:08

Things for us right now.

39:28

They're casting five things for us right now. So, yeah, you can kind of amortize costs, and that's all. Okay. But I. I know that I am weird. I will recommend a sound person. I have a short list. Do you know what I mean? And I know that's pretty uncommon. And sometimes you're just like, okay, great. But. So I guess I'm curious from your side of the table, Jonathan, is that sort of. Sometimes I think I like to step in on things that kind of aren't the director's job, because big picture, I like to run a set a certain way, and I know that these people do it the way I like to do it.

39:29

You know, mix your spices.

40:01

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. What, have you encountered that in other circumstances? I don't think I've forced a sound person on you yet, but that's because. Actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also, you guys work with good sound people. But you know what I mean? Like, we kind of, there's a little, there's certainly a push and pull, you know.

40:02

Yeah. I think again, in my mind, to me, I, I come at it and it's very much like a collaborative, creative, problem solving situation. And I'm, as the producer, I'm in the middle and I'm keeping everyone flowing forward and I'm hearing your vision and then, you know, maybe the client vision, making sure those are married and just keeping everyone moving forward. And so for me personally, any wreck or request that a director has, like, I'm gonna do my best to try and honor it, honor it from the get go. And that's not saying that I'm gonna hire your person 100 of your time, but I'm gonna at least take it and take it in consideration, you know what I mean? And so if you ever had a soundtrack, I would totally take it because again, it's, it's about making your vision. And if they have their special sauce that they bring to, you know, the running the set and it creates that alchemy better, like all for it. And I like expanding my own Rolodex with good people. And if someone's getting wrecked, they're usually the people I want to work with too.

40:18

Yeah, I want, I do want to point out what's unique about Jonathan and our relationship with him is that you are a full time employee at Sawhorse Productions right now. And so when with freelance producers, a lot of times Matt and I will be involved in saying, oh, this is a producer. I let's get them on. And so we are a little bit their client. You know, like, if I work with a producer and have a really bad experience with them, I will probably tell, you know, I like with our class, I work with a lot of freelance producers. I'll be like, ah, they're not my favorite producer. Can we hire someone else? And when you work with a company that basically has staff producers and you have to use them, a lot of times those producers seem, they, they want to keep their job. So they're serving the head of production owners of the company much more than the director. And so a lot of times they're like, yeah, sorry, this is the way we do it. You know, this is the way. Sorry, we just found the budget and I think you are. Of all the full time producers I've worked with, you're probably one of the best in terms of trying to see things from the director's point of view and not just being like the company man. You know, every time. And that's. That is kind of like a hard thing and that. That you do well. So I'm just giving you a compliment with no question here. But I, I do want to. Did want to ask you. I do have a different question which is kind of related to what Matt asked, but, like, what are some things that directors do that. That they think are important that you don't think are important? Is that.

41:14

Yeah.

42:29

All right. And I mean, maybe.

42:31

No, no, give him a second. You've rolled your eyes internally once or twice upon it.

42:32

We don't.

42:38

We're not asking for you to name names. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, but do you know what I mean? There's a little bit of, like, God, okay, sure. Anamorphic lenses. It's a social piece. Or, you know, like.

42:39

Yeah, orange. Demanding name tags.

42:49

Yeah, yeah, Orange did it. That's a good one. Yeah. Demanding name tags, for sure.

42:51

That's so. And I don't think we ever got those name tags. No, we did.

42:54

No, we did, we did. But they were written in, like, light pencil that was unreadable if you're more than one inch away from chest.

42:57

But I thought the name tags are a great thing. Yeah, I think, to generalize, I'm definitely personally a very big picture person, and I. I always want to start with the big picture. Like, what are we trying to achieve? And then you build your details from there.

43:02

Right.

43:14

And sometimes again, directors, based on their personal style, they'll get so hung up on one microscopic little detail. And it's like you were saying, like, that lamp in the corner, in the corner of the house that we're showing for, like, only one second in this room, and then we're moving on elsewhere. Like, I'm going to spend like two days talking about this lamp and it's like, oh, okay, like, I want you to have your lamp. But like, we have this, this, and this on our to do list. Make decisions on this and. But they'll just like, fixate too much on the wrong things, I guess, if that makes sense. And just. And I think it's important to deliver your vision, but also just take a step back, see the big picture and like, what's the ultimate goal that we're also pushing for? And I think kind of, you know, anamorphic lens on a camera, like, yeah, if we can do it. But are we blowing our entire lighting budget for that? Do we get one less light because of that or something? Or like, look at the big picture to achieve the. The most good. I guess, if that makes sense.

43:14

Yeah, it's fascinating. And I think both our opinions have evolved over the years. I think Oren and I used to both have a reputation for being easy to work with. Like, production friendly. Right. And then at a certain point, like, if you say yes to every compromise or, you know, all the edges get sanded off, all of a sudden you just. You're just. People don't think you're a good director.

44:06

Your reel is just, like, mushy.

44:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just all kind of bland and soft. And so I think figuring out what's important to you. Right. Is the main job of a director, honestly. Right. Like, is it about the lamp or is it not? Right. And sometimes you have the resources to make the lamp awesome and the rest of the spot awesome, and every single detail becomes, you know, how great this piece is. And sometimes you don't have budget to talk about the lamp.

44:32

Right, Right.

44:58

And I think we're always just in that position of wondering, are we compromising to make things better or are we compromising to make things easier? Right. Yeah.

44:59

And that's an important question.

45:13

And I think.

45:14

Yeah, yeah, that pitches me up at night.

45:15

It's funny. I think, like, the way my thought has. My thought process has evolved. And I don't know if other people, especially producers, agree with this on what being easy to work with director is. Sorry, I'm the only one with a dog here. Is that. Do you have a dog, John?

45:18

Yeah, I do. Oh, apparently the mailman's here right now.

45:32

Sure.

45:35

Yeah, I. I think I used to think easy to work with was saying, like, sure, we'll make that work. Sure, we'll do it. Yeah, okay, we'll. We'll do it. And now I think being easy to work with is, well, this is my opinion. Please let me sell it to everyone. You know, like, I'll sell. I'll sell this through. We need. We need more money for this. Let me pitch why and show the visual. You know, things like, let's get on a call. Let me show the locations and explain to them why this location is better than the one that they want. You know, why this cast member is better than the one that they want. And so to me, like, maybe it's like a more. Still more abrasive to work with. But I think if I was a producer and I had a director that was like, hey, not. Not only do I disagree with the client and I want you to go back and tell them, but. But let me talk to the client and kind of Present to them my point of view and how it fits in with the vision, why it's overall better for the product that we're making.

45:36

Has that ever become across as too thirsty, like, too desperate or too aggressive?

46:23

You're asking me or Jonathan? Yeah. Yeah, I don't think so. I mean, I lost a lot. Like, you know, we. Jonathan and I worked recently on something where I felt like the casting, I was really wanted it to go in a different direction and actually to another project where I wanted the kind of edit to go a different direction. And I pushed really hard and I showed them, like, look at this and this and this. I. Yesterday I was even like, AI. Generating couple photos to show Jonathan, like, who would look better together. But, you know, if. If they say no, then I just say, okay. And I, you know, sometimes, like, on one of these jobs, like, we'll do what the client wants, and on the other job, I will segment the edit to the director's cut and the client cut. You know, in a perfect world, we're all aligned and think that the best thing. Agree on what the best way forward is. Yeah. So I do. I do accept their decision as final, but it's kind of like, you know, being in court and arguing your case. Sure. I.

46:29

And I really respect that you do that, to be honest. And I think in my path as a producer, it's actually taken me time to learn the lesson. Like, are we. Are we compromising because it's better for the project, or are we compromising because it's easy? And I think coming up in production, you're juggling so much. A lot of times you're like, what's easy? What can I achieve? What's like, lowest risk that I can think the less least about? And I think you said earlier in the podcast even was like, kind of the difference between like a PM that just stepped up versus a bit more of experienced producers. Like, are you seeing, like, the ultimate goal or are you just going down a checklist? And I think, yeah, and I, And I agree that, yeah, don't let's. Again, especially in. In the commercial and branded world, like, we're selling cool, right? Like, we get more work because we sell something that's cool or fun or interesting or, you know, makes people laugh or talk about it later or anything like that. And if you compromise on that, then, like, what are we even doing here? And so I think, yeah, but just pick the right fights and work with your producer to fight back in in an appropriate way. And I think Oren's Always very. Again, stubborn and opinionated in the best of ways. And like, you want to fight for your ideas, and I respect that so much. And you're like, get me on this call, let me pitch my idea and I'll.

47:20

Yeah, yeah, let me get in there. I think it's funny because we, over the years, we've known Sawhorse for so long that I feel like the guardrails are quite clear. I'm working with a company recently where I was like, hey, I'd love to see the edit. And it's just crickets. Do you know what I mean?

48:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

48:49

Kind of like, I didn't even get a response back. You know what I mean? Well, first I was like, how's the edit going? And they were like, it's really good. And I was like, can I see it? And then that's crickets. Yeah. So I wonder, are there things. There are things. This probably isn't a fair question, but, like, stuff that people are pushing for that you're just like, hey, no, we just don't do. Do it that way here.

48:51

Yeah, that's interesting. I think it's funny you bring up the edit because I have, you know, I came up as a freelance producer for a long time before I've landed at software as well. So I've seen it done a multitude of different ways. And having the director part of the edit is like such a divisive issue somehow, where it feels so straightforward to me. I'm like, they ideated and shot the idea. Have them give their opinion on the edit and like, anywhere else, like, we'd.

49:12

Love to show you what you're aiming for.

49:35

Exactly.

49:37

Like, this is how I shot it. This is how I see it. I'm not saying there's not room for improvement, but, like, let me show you what my plan was at least, especially since you ignored the animatic.

49:38

Right.

49:47

But if you have all these creative directors and producers, everyone's gonna. Everyone can go in and like, leave a note on the frame IO just like, director a chance to, like, leave a note on the frame IO even. Like, it's that easy.

49:48

And yeah, Source is good at that. And I, Yeah, I feel like they're one of the companies that really appreciates, like, input. Like, you know, I think they'll be like, you want to come in? You want to sit down, you want to do some stuff, but there's still a deadline, which is the. The hard thing.

49:57

Sure, sure.

50:09

The deadline is always the hardest thing.

50:10

Yeah, I had. It's kind of a Weird question. I don't know if there's a good answer to it, but I find that in prep me as a director, I, I do, I get into goo, I make a lot of Google Slide decks, I pull a lot of images, references, I make GIFs, I do test videos, I do mockups. And I think probably just from a selfish point of view, I'm like, oh, this must be like a very helpful thing for a project. A director that's good at Google Slides or Canva or Mid Journey or you know, whatever Photoshop is that. Do you feel like that, that kind of the knowing the computer tools is like a important thing for a director or just kind of. Every director kind of has their own way into it.

50:12

Has their own way. But just like it's 2026, if you can't like use your Gmail or a calendar or, or spreadsheet, like it's, it just makes things that much more difficult. You know what I mean?

50:48

Well, what, what about though? I think there is like, there's the obvious required tools, right? And then like Oren's better workshop than probably most directors I know. Right. Like, I agree or like I'll, I'll get into a Google Slides deck and like, like I speak creative director, like I can get in there, you know what I mean? In a way that like I don't think everyone else is doing. And that's actually kind of like, oh, I wonder if I'm like not crossing a line but like I'm doing someone else's job a little bit, you know what I mean? Because I want it to be done the way I want it to be done. But so let's, let's focus on like the skill, the different, the different ways that people can contribute. Right. So like I think there's we, we talk a lot about the technical because I think we're both pretty technical, technical people. But like what are the other ways that people step in with their skill set that we don't. You don't always see in everyone, you know?

50:58

Yeah, I mean I work with some older directors and AD specifically I immediately went with this, who still likes to fully print everything out, like make a board and we'll actually do little hand drawn sketches and that's what makes sense to them. And I think whether it's technical or lo fi or whatever, kind of what a lot of this boils down to is it's communicating your vision in a way that's easily digestible by whoever else is on this project. And yes, it may be stepping on someone's toes. But again, they're bringing you in to bring your vision and your actualization. And so if you're good at going in the deck and like showing exactly how you want to do it, or if you're good at making an animatic or going in figma or if you can hand. If you like to, you know, do your own storyboards or even just work with a storyboard artist or whatever, I think, think whatever you can do to in a visual manner, show what it is that you're trying to achieve, makes it more digestible and makes it more sellable to anyone else, especially if you're pitching an idea that maybe not everyone's not on board. And so I think for me personally, I will never be upset if a director like, hey, I made this very detailed visual example of what I want to achieve. I'm like, that's amazing. Thank you.

51:48

Well, let's flip it. Are there instances where you're like, God, I wish that they would do this thing. You know, I've seen.

52:55

Send me some references for what this is supposed to look like. The client keeps asking. Yeah, yeah.

53:00

Or, or whatever that may be.

53:05

Yeah, I think it kind of ties into kind of the two of the points I made before is like, be opinionated and be decisive. And if you have an idea for something, like, give us a reference for it. Like, even if it's just a Google image or a shot deck, like, just pull an image and be like, hey, this is what's inspiring me. This is what's going on in my head. Because if it's in your head, that's great. But we. Everyone else needs to be able to see it and everyone else needs to be on, on board with that. So even if you aren't ne necessarily the most technically proficient, like I personally am not, I couldn't photo my shell self out of a paper bag.

53:07

It's pretty easy nowadays.

53:38

It's like, yeah, remove tool.

53:39

Let me ask, let me ask g how to do it. And I can give me. But it, it's just finding out where again, there's 10 different ways to do it the same way. And just like, what are you good at? What's easy for you to communicate your vision? Just because it is a team, collaborative, collaborative effort. And if you're not pulling everyone in into your vision in your world, then I feel like you need to maybe improve upon that. And the one other thing is as simple as also, I've had some directors fight me on just making a simple shot list, even if it's nothing more, just like a word doc with bullet points of just your plan going in. Even if it's rough, even if it's whatever, just make a shot list. Because it also. It makes you sit down and reflect on what we're gonna do, makes you have to have a conversation with the dp. It makes you really need to understand the creative and then also share that idea with everyone else so that we can all be on the same page moving forward. Like, just make your shot list.

53:41

It doesn't have to be perfect. I think a lot of baby directors get, like, offended that have only done their own work. You know, they're like, yeah. Oh, why. Why do you need a shot list? You don't trust me? You know, we.

54:34

We need to build a schedule. That's.

54:44

Yeah. Literally.

54:46

I had.

54:47

I had one last question for me, which is like. Like, can you. Can you think of a time we talked about how important prep is, and you like people that know exactly what they. Their plan is when they get to set, but can you think of a time when you lost a location or the weather changed or an actor didn't show up and a director had to, like, completely pivot on a shoot and, like, a. A good thing that they did or a bad thing that they did? Have you. Have you ever had a panicking director that's like, this is all gone to shit? Or a director that's like, okay, this is a plan. New, new. New deal.

54:48

We're having panicky directors on good shoots and confident directors on bad shit. And it all.

55:22

It all interviews.

55:26

I'm trying to think of, like, a really good story because I've definitely had that happen. I've done. I'll do a music video, like, once every couple of years and then remember why. I don't pursue those as often. But I've definitely had artists who are just like, nope, I'm not showing up today. And you're like, well, we're all here.

55:27

Isn't there famous. There's like, a famous music video, right, where the artist didn't show up and they still shot.

55:44

They shot it like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

55:49

What? It was like a rap video or something?

55:52

Yeah, yeah. I think we've talked about it on the show before.

55:54

Have you had that, Matt, where you just lost the location or an actor didn't show up?

55:56

Yeah, and I also had a music video where everybody got too stoned, like, because I hadn't done too many music videos. And they were like, hey, like, we're.

56:00

Feeling a little awkward.

56:09

It's okay if we like party a little bit. And I was like, sure, whatever it takes, it's fine, whatever. And then we shot the scene and we had a lot more to shoot. And I remember the bassist just being like, like I gotta chill here for a while. Like I can't get up. That is. Yeah, I, I think I, you know, I think that I haven't had like a producer that wasn't me lucid location. Do you know what I mean? Like most of the time because the resources are more ample and like, you know, like you were joking about. Oh, the reason you don't like to do music videos. It's like, yeah, sure, artists are. Can be tricky or whatever. We're really talking about, about budgets. We're talking about resources. So if you have the people and the money to pay for a good location well in advance and negotiate it and sign contracts and all that stuff, the likelihood that it's going to fall through is pretty darn low. Do you know what I mean? Like Jonathan, have you like as like a, like on a commercial, have you lost a location? So with, with not enough time to turn something else around. Like not really, right?

56:10

Not really. Not by the time that we've like, hey, we want to lock this. Hey, we want to sign an agreement with you. Hey, we want to make a plan.

57:08

Because thousands of dollars are on the line. It's not like oh, my friend, you know, is going to let us into the back of this electronics store for an hour to shoot a video or something, you know.

57:15

Exactly, exactly. And there's usually language baked into the contract that if they do break it, they owe us money or something.

57:23

Sure, sure, sure.

57:30

So no one wants to do that. I think, I think what you're going. But one thing that a memory that your question spurred is a music video. Not to you know, say against it, but it was a small to medium artist who had a very large a lister who was just gonna do kind of a. In. In the music video. And it was actually. And it had, the video had minor brand sponsorship and so we had some money. It was over a million dollars for like a one day shoot.

57:30

We were doing video budget.

57:56

Yeah.

57:58

It was like we, we were doing full volume stage. We had three stages, three sound stages at this comp campus rented out for different sets. And we were going through it all and a lot of time and energy and prep put into it. The smaller artist was super stoked because it was going to be like a big video for him. The cameo artists let us know at his Call time that he was going to be three hours late.

57:58

Could be worse.

58:23

Well, as long as they show up in three hours.

58:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

58:26

I think ended up showing up four hours late. Went to his, you know, Moho dressing room and got all his writer stuff, stayed in there for way too long and then came out, you know, a little inebriated, did one scene and said, okay, that's it, I'm wrapped and left. And that's like, I love it when.

58:27

Talent'S like, and that's a wrap. You're like, what?

58:44

And so that was definitely a bit of a like scrambling moment, like for the, for the producing team and for the director as well. And we basically had to on the fly, rewrite the script and basically be like, we got a little bit more with this cameo guy, but we had to pick and choose where we were going to use them and then like how we were going to fill the gaps without him. And so I think, and it was stressful and everyone, I think everyone was kind of eyes wide open to know. Everyone was like, well, this sucks. But you know, it is what it, it happens, I guess was kind of the attitude. But I think, think everyone was able to really come together with the director, the, the ad, the art department, like, what sets are done, what were we planning to shoot later? Like, how can we rearrange that? How can we remove this guy and have it not feel felt? And I think again, I personally love big picture problem solving, creative problem solving. Like, how do we make the best version of this with the resources at hand? And I, and it ended up being like a really cool video.

58:47

I, you know, I think we were, we were joking about music videos, but just for people who are like, why, why are music videos hard? Yeah, contextually there's a couple things, right? And, and I think your, your, your story highlights the perfect storm, right? Back in the day, it used to be that the record company and the artists would split the budget 50, 50, right? So half of, if it was a million dollar video, the band was spending half a million dollars out of their advance or whatever, however it worked out, right? So it's, it's their money to lose. So if the video is not good, you know, there were big, high stakes, right. It was also back when people spent money on music, which is changing again, right? But like now artists make their money touring rather than selling records. So, so there's that. But it's interesting that you said that like sponsorship money, right? So whatever brand comes, steps in to give, you know, the lion's share of the money at this point. That's money that, like, feels magical. Feels like it's out of nowhere and, like, you're gonna get a shot of whatever beverage it was or whatever. I don't. I have no idea. I'm not in that world. Right. So, like, that money's already there. And then also this cameo. They have even less skin in the game. It's not their career that's gonna explode. They're lending their image to somebody else. So those are all of the obvious reasons why things could end up. But then also, like, artists, I think they're, like, sometimes trained to, like, being late creates a little bit of mystique or a little bit of cool. We're supposed to, like, not care. Fashionably late. Exactly.

59:43

And it's like, just like me, Jonathan.

1:01:14

So mysterious.

1:01:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but, but to bring it back, back to, you know, not defending, I don't know, Justin Bieber, whoever this mystery person is. That's just a guess. That's not right, is it? No. Okay, good.

1:01:18

Eber wouldn't do that.

1:01:29

Oh, yeah, Yeah.

1:01:30

I don't think he would not.

1:01:31

I have no idea.

1:01:33

He's 10 minutes early for sure.

1:01:34

Good.

1:01:35

That's great.

1:01:36

That's great. I think what we're. Orin and I are really. Maybe I. I shouldn't speak for you, Oren, but there's a part of me that wants to be like, oh, because we don't see the other directors and how they prep and all the stuff they do. I want to come in and people will be like, oh, wow, Matt's got the secret sauce. That's not just vision and point of view and creativity, but also like, method. That makes me a cut above.

1:01:36

Do you also like leadership skills where whether things are going according to plan or not according to plan, you can still steer the ship.

1:02:02

Yeah, but like, there's a part of me that wants to be like, well, they booked in low and they're never going to want to go back. Do you know what I mean?

1:02:09

Yeah. We want to hear the other directors are either good at prepping or good at winging it, but are not good at both. And we.

1:02:16

I guess I'm saying I wanted to be great at all of the things better than everyone else on everything.

1:02:24

Yes, you are.

1:02:29

Yeah, I think. I think you're phenomenal directors, either of you either.

1:02:30

Any just hook it to my vein. But yeah, so I think that. I think that's the root of this question. It's just like, where. Where are the stumbling blocks for People, you know what I mean?

1:02:35

For a second, I'm gonna just. It made me think of something else. Oren and I were chatting about just the idea of mentorship and how phenomenal it can be and how disappointing that directors don't really get to tap into it as much as a lot of other positions on set.

1:02:45

I was saying, again, especially in the commercial world.

1:03:01

Especially in the commercial world. I. I was lucky enough that I've had a few phenomenal mentors in my life who really helped me level up my game, and I would not be, you know, working on the projects or doing the stuff I am today without them. And it's night. It's easier in the production vertical if you're coordinator PM and you're sitting in.

1:03:04

And everything in every other. Yeah, I think every other vertical. Right. Like, I think art has a clear ladder, camera has a clear ladder, sound has a. Like, everybody kind of gets to mentor each other except for us. Which is honestly part of why I think that the podcast is valuable, you know?

1:03:23

Yeah. And the thing about directing, because so much of it, so much of the work is before you're on set, like, even if you had a shadow on set, it would be way more valuable for them to actually be in the pitch call, in the briefing call, and, hey, we just lost the location, which we do call, you know, because that's when you're actually doing, like, most of the directing. Yeah, but we don't.

1:03:40

The brain stuff. Have you ever questions, right, like, why are you making the choices you're making?

1:03:59

Matt is like, I was telling Jonathan, I'm jealous of people that have come from the agency side to the directing side because you've done some agency side stuff too. You get to see how other directors do that. You even were telling me the other day about a director, like, how they, you know, just. We're talking about locations or casting or something. And I've never been on another call with another director pitching, you know, or briefing or leading a meeting. I mean. Yeah, at least not in the last, like, 10 years. And I do. I am jealous of. Of people that get to see that. And so if you want to be mentored by a great director, Matt is available, just email him at this Shooter Potter.

1:04:03

I've been trying to get shadows on the set lately, and it's been weirdly hard, actually. I think, like. Like, there's a liability issue and stuff like that, so.

1:04:40

And I feel like, because I've had that happen before, I've had being like, hey, you know, I have a Friend or a niece or, you know, this new grad who I think is really sharp. And I want them just to come on site. You don't have to pay them. Just let them show up, and they're gonna hang out. And, like, my first reaction is, yes. And then they're like, liability. They're not covered by our workers comp. If they break something, if they do anything, like, it becomes this issue. So. No. Just flat no. And I'm like, that's so disappointing. It's like. And I can. I get. I get the reason for it, but I'm like, there should be a workaround somehow.

1:04:47

I don't know.

1:05:18

It's frustrating.

1:05:19

Yeah. And it's interesting. We had. When the shoot that Jonathan and I just did, we had, like, a famous baseball player with us, and my friend, who happens to live close to Seattle, was a huge fan of his. And I was like, dude, come to set. And Jonathan was like, does he? And I kind of, as a joke, was like, hey, maybe he could just be, like, his handler. And Jonathan was like, does he want to be like, it's fine with me? So I was like, yeah, let's do it. So he kind of got to be on set. And I told him, like, right at the beginning, like, just so you know, being on set is, like, the most exciting thing for the first 20 minutes, and then it is the most boring thing you've ever experienced. And lo and behold, at lunch, when we lost our celebrity baseball player, he's like, you need me for anything, or should I just go to my room, watch some tv? I was like, yeah, you can go. The fact that you've been here for, like, six hours is already.

1:05:20

Yeah, it was, what, like, eight locations? And just.

1:06:04

Yeah.

1:06:08

Today that our editor. I don't think you're on that call. Jonathan Wonder editor, is like, wait, you shot this all in one day? I was like, drone shots.

1:06:09

Everything that's kind of been everyone's.

1:06:15

It was, like, 10 locations. Yeah.

1:06:17

I feel like also, we producers and directors get to be in the eye of the storm, whereas, for better or worse, every other department has, like, downtime and ups and downs. And so I know plenty of departments that are, like, pretty bored most of the time on set. Right. Like, hair and makeup's an easy example. It's like, okay, like, you're busy in the beginning, and then you're wrapping out and kind of in between, like, maybe after lunch, you're busy, but, like, there's a lot of time where you're just kind of, like, making sure Everyone looks fine and, like, stepping in for looks, but it's kind of boring, and we're never, ever bored for better.

1:06:18

You know what? I feel like there was a time where every hair and makeup artist I worked with was, like, at the monitor next to me, just making sure everyone looks good and stepping in. And I feel like there's. I mean, maybe it's just due to schedule or conditions or how much room there is at Video Village or whatever, but I feel like a lot of times now I'm like, I haven't seen the makeup artist at all, you know, today, I don't know what.

1:06:56

There was a bit of a shift, and I don't know why. And the good ones, like, the ones I like to hire keeping an eye on monitor set or something and do stuff in, but there is, like, less of an expectation for that now or something.

1:07:16

Maybe I wish they were watching because I'm bad at that. That's like, one I'm. It's like if some. If someone has to be drenched in sweat for me to be like, hey, we should get looks in.

1:07:26

Do you know you also want it to be. It's so not fair because we'll give lighting 20 minutes, and we'll give already 20 minutes, but we'll never give, like, hair and makeup 20 minutes. So I want. If, like, oh, there's a flyaway here. I want them to just be right there, you know, not, like, having to run back to get their stuff.

1:07:36

Totally.

1:07:52

You've made it on time for the McDonald's breakfast menu. You think to yourself, finally, I could start my day with my perfect breakfast. But what if breakfast could be even more perfect with the hot honey sausage egg biscuit? It finally is. This won't last forever, so go to McDonald's and get it while you can.

1:07:55

Maybe I should go into the hair and makeup area in the morning and say, hey, it would be great to have you by the monitor. Don't. Don't feel, like. Ever feel like you're in the way, you know?

1:08:17

Yeah, Yeah. I think that's great. And I. That goes back to my point of, like, oh, that's part of why I like to recommend certain people. Like, I just met a makeup artist yesterday that I was like, oh, I'm. I. I made a point to put them on the list. Yeah.

1:08:24

Nice.

1:08:36

Yeah. And for my favorite crew members in general, they really just understand the. And I. And when I say it, I'm speaking of department heads a lot of times who are looking after their vertical or whatever, but they just get the assignment.

1:08:37

I've got a couple favorite like art assistants. Do you know what I mean? Like I want to set like there's you, you. Especially if you work with the same people. And over again you're like, oh, I'm so happy to see you.

1:08:49

Totally same. Actually, I have a lot of favorite prop masters and like, yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:08:57

They're client facing.

1:09:02

It's important.

1:09:03

They got to be quick. You got to be prepared. Yeah, yeah.

1:09:04

But yeah, these favorite people, I think the common denominator is they just really get the assignment and they understand their vertical and they understand like what they're responsible for, when and where they need to be paying attention and they're on it before I need to ask them. And it's like that's literally why I'm hiring you. I want you to run your department and come to me with any questions or concerns, but otherwise just run it.

1:09:06

Yeah, absolutely. Jonathan, have you ever thought about television? We talked about tv.

1:09:27

I don't believe in tv.

1:09:32

So you remind me of, of, of a TV person in that way.

1:09:33

You know what I mean?

1:09:37

Like some people, I think like commercials and branded short term stuff is really fun because it's like every day's a new adventure, you know, and you're like jumping from job to job. You never get bored. It's always a new challenge. And that's true in TV as well. But there is something a little bit more architectural about it. It's like we're going to build a season of television. So I really have to, to line everything up perfectly and pay close attention to building out departments that really understand the assignment basically because we're going to be stuck with them for months 100%.

1:09:38

And I actually, I've been adjacent. I haven't done proper broadcast television, but I was in esports for like a year. Where you. I was doing like full seasons with one league and like thinking of the architecture. And then for about two and a half years I produced like an ETV style show where it was like, these are the top five new movies you should watch that we recommend. And I never know what.

1:10:11

Show up early from Marina Maria Menounos.

1:10:33

Right.

1:10:35

Literally. Oh, she was a star.

1:10:36

Yeah, it was an icon. And I was called.

1:10:38

Yeah, yeah. She was delightful to work with such a pro. Like knew exactly what she wanted and.

1:10:41

She was it for newbie.

1:10:46

No, it was, it was called Roku Recommends. Okay, Roku. And yeah, I was like, these are the top five new movies you can watch for free on your. Roku brought to you by Walmart.

1:10:47

Maria Menounos. For. For people who don't recognize the name. She's the woman who will tell you what movies to watch on, like, before.

1:10:57

Before.

1:11:05

I think it's amc or maybe it's Regal. I think it's Regal.

1:11:06

Anyway, AMC does it too, I think.

1:11:09

Does it? Yeah, she's. And she's been on TV and YouTube and gas station monitors.

1:11:10

You know, she does a lot of Lifetime as well and. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:11:15

Anyway. Truly an icon.

1:11:20

She's great. She was lovely.

1:11:22

Yeah. Well, Jonathan, I know I told you half an hour now. We're in an hour and five minutes. So we will just, Just keep you on for one more second. Are you cool with. Well, first. Sorry, first of all, is there a way people can follow you online?

1:11:23

Yeah. How can people keep track of all the cool things you were making?

1:11:35

Yeah. For. For someone that like, creates a lot of social content, I do not engage as much.

1:11:39

I have.

1:11:44

Please follow me. I am on Instagram as J. Burns film. J B U R N S F I L m just freshly updated. And I in the process. It's under construction.

1:11:45

Okay. I. I think I tagged you in a post today, so. Okay, good. Okay, great.

1:11:56

It was literally right after that post I was like, I should update my tag. The old one was like. Yeah, it was like an old high school moniker.

1:12:00

Yeah.

1:12:09

So please feel free to follow. I'm trying to get better at it. I'd like it to be more of a calling card for myself. And I'm in the process of renovating.

1:12:10

Nice. Do you have a minute to stay with us for an unpaid endorsement?

1:12:18

An unpaid endorsement?

1:12:22

Yes.

1:12:23

Cool.

1:12:23

Unpaid endorsements. So my unpaid endorsement, I'm on a real stationary and like office supply kick. This is an Italian stapler. It's Ecclesia 97 and it is you. You hand staple it like this. And it is one of the nicest things I've ever owned. This is like. This is my forever stapler. The action of stapling is so pleasant. I wish I had more things to staple. The only downside is that it doesn't take standard issue staples because it's. It's a little thinner. So you have to get these kind of smaller Italian staples.

1:12:24

They're beautiful in Italian.

1:13:01

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they're a little bit. They're a little bit more narrow. They're. They're Punti 76 size staples. But. But now with the Internet you can get, you know, all your office supplies you can get on the Internet. So who cares? American staples Italian staples, tomato, tomatoes. This thing is freaking great. It's a Clizy at 97. I'll bring it over. Oren, you'll try it and you'll be like, oh, yeah, it is nice.

1:13:02

I do believe you. And it does actually look cool. And it's potentially better than your last endorsement, which I kid you not, Jonathan, were paper clips from Italy, also Italian paper clips.

1:13:22

So I have them right here.

1:13:32

Literally setting the bar very high for you.

1:13:34

Yeah, you are. I get it, though. There's that beautiful one. And what is it? Paper Source in Highland park or something has all the.

1:13:36

Oh, sure. Paper. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful, beautiful. Yeah, I got. I got my pencil brand Black Wings.

1:13:43

Do you have a. A pen? Like, number size?

1:13:50

I. I'm a pilot V5 guy, but. But I've been V5 basically my whole life. Like since high school. I bought this pen. I get a box for myself or my wife gets them for me every year. I'll take a V7 too. So touch wider. A little inkier too.

1:13:54

I like. I. I've settled on B7. B5 is A or 5 is a little too narrow. One is just like. No, it's my skin to use.

1:14:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:14:14

That'7 is happy medium.

1:14:15

You ever use a micron? Like a micron 0.5? They're like more. It's more like a mic marker sort of sensation.

1:14:18

Okay.

1:14:24

So, like, the feel, the flow is a little tricky, but, like, it's quite precise if you're enjoying crosshatching and stuff.

1:14:24

And I was in Japan, I actually liked 0.5 if I was writing like kanji, because all the strokes very precisely, but it doesn't work with my English lettering as well, I feel.

1:14:31

I see. Interesting. All right. All right. Well, Jonathan, what you got, buddy?

1:14:39

So, yeah, I. I wasn't aware of the format coming in and Oren's like, you know, something interesting. You've read a book or. I'm like, okay, how do I sound? Intellectual and cool. But the first thing that popped in my mind that I'm gonna go with is I made a TikTok recipe that I'm obsessed with and turned out really good.

1:14:43

Awesome.

1:14:58

Everyone's probably seen it. It's.

1:14:59

It's.

1:15:01

I did the lemon posay or posset P O S S E T. You've probably seen the images where it's like a lemon cut in half and you have the rind, but inside it is like a pudding or.

1:15:02

Sure it was.

1:15:11

We were having friends for d. Needed to make something. Have elementary. I'M like, I'm just going to make it, I'm going to try it. Three ingredients you can make it. It only takes like 30 minutes of cooking and then you just let it.

1:15:13

Chill for two hours.

1:15:23

And it made the silkiest, smooth, like sweetest, nicest custard pudding with a nice little lemony tang. Corners of your cheek. It was delightful. It was so good and easy. I made it two nights in a row.

1:15:24

And what are the ingredients?

1:15:37

So it's heavy cream, you just boil. Heavy cream and sugar. You bring it to a boil, let it boil for 5 minutes, take it off the heat, heat, add a little bit of lemon juice, and then you just chill it for two hours and you put it in like a little ramekin. We ended up serving it in martini glasses.

1:15:38

Sure.

1:15:53

With like a little twist of lemon on the top as the garnish is nice.

1:15:54

But wait, did you have a dinner party or was it just for you two?

1:15:56

Just, we had another couple over for dinner.

1:16:00

Okay, don't do that for yourself. You, you're not eating, you know, custard out of a martini glass in your pajamas.

1:16:02

I was picking my daughter up from her friend's house and they're like, oh yeah, we're having some friends over for lunch. The dad is gonna make us pesto pasta for. And I was like, went home. And I was like, babe, why, why don't we ever just like invite friends over for lunch on the weekend and like just sit down and drink wine while the kids are playing and just like, you know, Italian countryside style, like literati. And she's like, cuz you hate cooking and I hate cooking. So what are we going to like? I don't know, we can order in food, but I just like, I have this fantasy of just like having friends probably around our age that like to talk about like, like the things I don't talk about on the podcast, like politics and, you know, parenting theories and whatever else we want to talk about and just like, you know, chill. I don't know, I need to do that more.

1:16:11

Yeah, Oren goes on vacation in order to do that. And I feel like you're just realizing, oh, you don't actually have to be at a resort poolside in order to pull that off.

1:16:54

You just have friends over for lunch on the weekend or for dinner during the week. I don't know, I'm very.

1:17:03

What's funny?

1:17:08

Just clearly I'm. I'm dissatisfied with my social life. Sorry, go on.

1:17:09

Just going back to the cooking. Like I think I'm A okay cook. Not an amazing one, but I like it. And for me, like, I'm not an artist or a photographer, and I work with a lot of creative people, but cooking always felt like a creative outlet for me and, like, playing around with it. One of my favorite things is just invite people over and feed them and there's just like, something so satisfying with that and you sit around and chat and.

1:17:12

Yeah, speaking of TikToks, I saw one not that long ago where the. The woman, her thesis was realizing that entertaining was her hobby. And I was like, oh, yeah, because we like to entertain. Less dinner parties and more kind of larger parties, but, like, the. The fun and the joy and the creativity of hospitality is something that I don't think people. People have been practicing for a long time, but we don't put a fine point on it. We don't say, hey, you know, this is a thing I like, like to do as an interest and as a hobby. The same way some people like football or racing cars or whatever the thing that is that they do. Hospitality is one of those things, and it's just as valid as all that other stuff and is creative and fun and not surprising that a producer is also hospitable. Do you know what I mean?

1:17:32

Yeah, yeah, totally. He gives amazing small talk.

1:18:21

Yeah. Yeah, There you go.

1:18:24

Yeah. Well, mine, I guess I'm just going to ride the Jonathan train real quick. I also made a recipe, not from TikTok. I'm not on TikTok, but from Instagram. It seemed so easy. It seemed kind of delicious and it seemed healthy. It is two bananas, two eggs, a cup of peanut butter, a cup of blueberries mixed all together, put into a muffin tin and baked. And I was like, done. Let's do. Was pretty gross.

1:18:25

Gross, yeah.

1:18:51

But what I did find, there's this woman on Instagram. It's funny how just people, like, make careers off of reviewing other people's careers, reviewing other people. But there's this woman, her name is GQ Jordan Nutrition on Instagram. I think she's Australian or something, but she. She takes viral recipes, tries them out, rates them, and also, like, modifies them. And she took this recipe and she added some baking soda to it, some maple and some oats to give it some structure. And so I have not tried it yet, but I'm very excited because it feels like this perfect kind of like afternoon muffin that has a lot of protein and is not that bad for you.

1:18:52

I think that you need to just shift. Don't call it a Muffin is the thing in the same way that people often do that with like pancakes. If you, if you're expecting something fluffy and light and airy, you're going to be disappointed because the things that make things fluffy and light and airy are flour and then like some sort of activator, some sort of leavening and fat. Right. The things that you're trying to avoid. Right.

1:19:32

Yes. The delicious soda and oats.

1:19:57

Yeah.

1:20:00

And. Yeah. Maple syrup. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:20:00

So it's still going to be heavy and hearty, but like, if you, if you think of it more like a bar, you know what I mean? If it's in that space, then it might not be quite so disappointing.

1:20:02

Yeah. The other thing I just wanted to endorse real quick is that link I sent Matt Chat last night and like 80 of the things I sent him. Zero response.

1:20:13

Yep. Well, you probably sent it to me at like 10 and I was asleep. Yeah.

1:20:20

But I'm just gonna say it now because I'm sure I'll forget about it. It's so fleeting, but it's a. If you look up visual effects of the movie called after the Hunt, everyone.

1:20:24

Sent me a YouTube video to watch at 9, 10.

1:20:33

Oh, come on.

1:20:36

That seems like the perfect time to watch a YouTube video.

1:20:38

Jonathan, I love in your life, would you, Would you be like, like. Hold on, honey. Pause Traders. I've got to watch this dude. After the hunt vfx breakdown.

1:20:40

It's a. It's a 1 1/2 minute vfx breakdown. Really? You don't need to even listen to the sound to watch. I don't know that while you're watching Traders. Come on. I don't even.

1:20:51

Yeah, it's pretty good.

1:20:58

Like screen watching for sure. But it's. So if you just look up for after the Hunt VFX Breakdown, it's a movie that show it to a hundred people and 100 of them will say there's no visual effects in this movie. And then once you watch it, you realize every single shot in that movie is a visual effects shot that they didn't shoot almost any of it where you think they shot it, like winter streets in Boston or wherever it takes place. Actually, I haven't seen the movie not shot there. Like, everything is on blue screen. Every office, every house, every college campus, every. Everything is blue screener, green screener. And this guy, Todd Vaziri, who did a. Is kind of pretty active on social media and he used to work at ilm. He wrote an article about like, why did they do this. And he just gave. He didn't really talk specifically about after the hunt, but he just gave a hundred reasons why. Sometimes if you want a car by the river and you can't access the river, just shoot the car in a parking lot and just change the background to a river. But it's done so impeccably well that like, no one in a million years would suspect this. A huge VFX movement.

1:20:59

Yeah.

1:22:03

Yeah. Wow. It's both like, I saw the movie and I had no idea until just this moment. And it's both disheartening, but also at the same time, I'm like, man, they did a really good job, and I didn't know. So is it disheartening? And I'm like, a little.

1:22:03

I look practical.

1:22:15

Give me.

1:22:16

The question is, did it cost more or less? And I. I know because of it.

1:22:16

Yeah, well, it. It depends. So Julia Roberts is in this movie and how expensive is her time?

1:22:20

Is the question around? And he said a lot about. About the seasonality. Like, you need to do a pickup shot, and it's now winter where it was summer last time you shot.

1:22:27

I think it's also important to say this is a Luca Guadagnino movie.

1:22:36

Right. Also wrapped by Nikki Weiss.

1:22:41

But the reason I. I bring that filmmaker up is like, you know, he's got as much credit as you could ask for. Do you know what I mean?

1:22:43

But also known as this very naturalistic, natural, and practical experience.

1:22:51

If I found out that call me by your name was all green screen.

1:22:56

It would be disappointing that he's just acting with the tennis ball.

1:23:00

Exactly.

1:23:04

You just say you want to be lounging on the Tuscan countryside.

1:23:04

Cannibalism.

1:23:07

Yeah.

1:23:08

It wasn't a pinnace ball.

1:23:09

Yeah, exactly. That's what it feels like right now.

1:23:10

The focus group was like, tennis ball is kind of weird anyhow. Well, cool. Well, thanks so much, Jonathan. I will let you get back to producing our shoot and the hundred other things, things that you probably have going on in your life. If you have any comments, if you want to talk to us about your own relationships with producers or maybe you are a producer and you want to tell us what you like or dislike about directors, please send us an email or distrutopod gmail.com or at distrutopod on across all social media, you can DM us. I'm at O Kaplan on Instagram.

1:23:13

And I'm at Mr. Matt Dunlow. This episode was edited by Kevin Oyang. Thanks, Kevin. Our social media is done by Lily Bouffier. Thanks, Lily. And produced by Tyler Small. And you're listening to music provided by the Music Archive and the artist Jazzar. Thanks, everyone. Thank you.

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