270: Curry Barker

What do you think? I think we're dead meat. Real dead meat. You're dead meat! Go ahead and laugh you guys. If I have a final little glasses of business, we're dead meat. Welcome to the Dead Meat Podcast, your horror safe haven, I'm Chelsea. And I'm James and we're married and we'd like to get scared together. Yes, we've got a very exciting guest this week. I am so... I've been talking about this movie for, I don't know how long we saw it at Salify. We've got the writer and director of Obsession here, Kerry Barker. Hello. Yes, I, congratulations. Thank you. I mean the movie hasn't opened yet. It's opening literally today. But regardless of how successful it is, it is a success because it's our favorite movie of the year. Amazing. Yeah, we love it. Thanks so much. That means a lot. Thanks for liking it so much. Yeah, we've been proselytizing it. It's one of those movies where, there are other movies where I get really hype over when we see, and I have to give a little qualifier of like, I loved it. It might not be for you depending on your taste, but I feel like Obsession has something for everyone who's a horror fan. It's scary, it's funny, it's entertaining. It's got really juicy themes to dig into, which we will when we eventually review it on the podcast. Yeah, I think we're definitely going to get into spoilery stuff today, and I do want to kind of dig into that stuff a little bit, but we'll do our own episode about it because I really want to kind of, tear that stuff apart because it's so interesting and it's what I really like about it. We'll get to the Obsession stuff later though. First, I just want to chat with you just because I find you very interesting. Thanks. I love your work. We just covered Milk and Cereal on our show, The Kill Count, and so part of that is a lot of research, so I've looked into your path here, but I'd love to talk about for anyone who doesn't know, especially since you come from sketch comedy, like so many horror filmmakers today. Yeah, it's kind of an interesting path that we're seeing, right? I think what's really interesting is that we just live in a time where YouTube is a thing. I don't think my path is that different than Steven Spielberg or not comparing myself to these people, but just saying their path to how they got to where they are. You can watch an early Christopher Nolan short. You can watch an early David Fincher short film. These people kept making short films and hoping and praying that somebody important would like it and give them a shot. I mean, that's kind of what happened to me. I just used YouTube as a platform to get my work out there, you know? So it's kind of interesting. Yeah, and I know that you met your creative partner, Cooper Tomlinson, in film school, right? Yes, yeah, yeah. Where'd you guys go? So we went to the New York Film Academy. Okay. And we met that first week, and we just, like, connected. Like, we really, we both wanted to do stuff. Like, we both were like, hey, you were like, let's write something. And, you know, sometimes people were like, yeah, sure, but like, it's kind of like you never hear from them again. But like, we wanted to do something like that first week we were making stuff. It was awesome. When you mentioned YouTube and that kind of Spielberg type path, it made me think that, and I was thinking about this the other day, there is kind of a weird parallel right now to New Hollywood, and where there were all these directors kind of making stuff through this new pathway as a reaction to this weird kind of dinosaur studio system that wasn't working anymore and was kind of collapsing in on itself. And I do see parallels to that. And filmmakers having to find their own way because the current studio system is just so, it's hard to get a foothold. It's hard to get your stuff seen and it just feels so like it hasn't caught up with what people want and yeah. I agree. I mean, I never really wanted to wait for someone to tell me what I could and couldn't. I mean, that's kind of the magic of YouTube is, is that you do have full creative freedom. And honestly, some of that, I'm sure we'll go, you know, right now, I'm really enjoying my journey, but I think I'm going to look back at those years as like some of the best creative years of my life because you just have so much creative freedom. I mean, you have unlimited creative freedom and there's, and kind of even when I wrote Obsession, I was thinking like somebody's going to tell me that this is too far, like this is too disturbing and that the mainstream is not going to like it and so you're going to have to take this out, take that out, avoid this, avoid this theme, whatever. And no one ever came and told me I had to do that. So it was like a bunch of kids waiting for the adults to come home and tell us we have to stop and it just never happened and we were just like, great, I guess they're getting, we're getting away with this and we're getting away with that. And so I don't know what happened first, like the cause or the effect, but like all I know is that right now because of that, I feel like they're giving me so much more creative freedom. Like I've almost like created this brand and now that's what people expect from me. So they're almost like just letting me do that. You know what I mean? It's pretty cool. Like on anything but Ghost, I was able to do as far as I wanted. Yeah, I was going to ask because that's your next project after Obsession. You've already wrapped shooting with it. Okay. And that one, you're in it. Yes, yes. Which I'm really excited to see and recently announced. Aaron Paul. Yes, Aaron Paul. Okay. I was like, is it Aaron Paul? My brain's like malfunctioning. Yeah. Is it Brice Dahl's Howard? Brice Dahl's Howard and Aaron Paul. Oh, and Violet McGraw. Violet McGraw, yeah. Yes, oh, Violet. Yes, Violet. So like refreshing to finally be able to talk about this. Yeah. They're awesome. Like all three of them are just so good at their job. Like I found myself like having a lot less to say because they just would show up and nail it and constantly being impressed with Violet. I'd never worked with like a younger actress before. So I was kind of nervous as a director of like, how does it like to work with a kid? You know, I mean, she's still quite young. Yeah. I think she's 14 or 15. I think she's officially 15. I think she had a birthday, but there's definitely like strict rules about time and stuff. Like I didn't realize how hard it is to you can't do like overnight. I mean, this whole move, it's a horror move, right? Like, so like a lot of it takes place at night. And so like working with her with her hours was kind of challenging for, you know, the first AD and like the people that made the schedule, but also for us because we're like cutting shots left and right because we're like, if we don't get Violet out in this amount of time, then we're screwed, you know? But she was just so impressive. Like I would basically just be like, listen, I really need you to go there. And she would just like go so far. I mean, I think it's just a testament to her. Yeah. She's just awesome. Yeah. I mean, I love Megan and she's a big reason why because of her performance in it. And then I've gotten to know her and Madeline and their mom, Jackie. Yeah. Convention service. She's great. And she's like, I love having Jackie there because obviously, you know, I'll talk to Madeline and Violet, but they are teenage girls and I'm like, you know, a 37 year old man. So I'm like, Jackie, we're connecting. Yeah. She's just as cool as them. But their mom is really great. And I love like their mom is very involved and is like always there if they're there. But never crosses the line. No, no, no, she's not a stage mom. No, she's not. She's great. Like she's a very good mom. I was even wondering, I was like, did Violet like go over this monologue with you or whatever? And she's like, no, she doesn't want anything to do. She doesn't want to practice with me, which with looking back at like when I was 15, neither did I want to practice with my mom. You know, do you think it's a thing where the younger you are, the less self conscious you are about the playing pretend aspect of it, you're more easily able to get into a, you know, just snap into a, OK, I'm here and this is what I'm doing. I think absolutely. Yeah. But I also feel like when you're like 15, 16, maybe even 14, that can be even heightened because you're at that teenage level where everyone at school starts to judge each other and like feels like a spotlight's on you always. Yeah. So I feel like that is what I was kind of worried about is that there's like an age where you pass it and there's an age where the world's so innocent that you don't know about it yet. Like I think like from even 11 to 12, you're like, I could do anything and look silly and nobody will judge me. But then I think 13, 14, 15, you're like, everybody's judging me everywhere. And then like you get to like your 20s and you're like, screw it. I, you know, but I think she was actually in that perfect area of like feeling judged. And but she just nailed it. Like that's what I was worried about anyway. But she was just so great. And Aaron Paul too. I feel like he's underrated in the sense that he looks out for really cool, like up and coming or not necessarily up and coming filmmakers, but people who are like maybe earlier on in their filmmaking careers, like he did Flying Lotus's film Ash and was incredible in that. I don't know if you saw that, but it's super weird. It's like this sci-fi. Yeah. But I think he seeks out stuff like that. And I'm really excited to see what you do with him in this movie. He was awesome. Yeah. I mean, I'm such a huge breaking that bad fan. Like what's your favorite movie? Kind of a hard question for me. Yeah. But if you say what's your favorite TV show, it's easy. Like I always say breaking bad. So and that's been my answer for years. So like, you know, you can imagine like even just having a meeting with Aaron Paul is like, no way does he want to meet. And he told me on that zoom that he was like, look, Curry, this was just honestly for a formality. I want to do the movie. I was like, you've got to be kidding. I was like, I can't wait to tell Cooper about this. He's going to freak out. Was that after he'd seen Obsession or had he? Yeah. Like we sent the movies to like Bryce and Aaron to kind of be like, hey, this is what we got going on. Hope you like it. Maybe you want to be a part of something I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah. It must be so crazy working with these A-listers now when just a few years ago, yeah, you were making like sketch comedy with a person you met in film school and you guys didn't even finish film school, right? No. Yeah. You dropped out to actually make things, which probably saved you a ton of money. Yeah. It saved us money and it was during COVID. So I think like the whole like transfer to zoom thing kind of felt disconnected for us. And so it kind of felt like the best thing for us at the time. And just it was kind of scary because it was both of our dads were kind of like, okay, well, this is your decision. If you're going to do it, like we're cutting you off money wise, you know, not emotionally. Yeah. We're cutting you off. But like you got to support yourself. And it was like, oh man, well, that's what we're doing. You know, it's like fine. That's such a big gamble to take on yourself that obviously paid off. But I mean, I remember before Dead Meat, we had a sketch comedy channel that we started in 2012 and it was the same kind of, I mean, we met in college and we're friends in college and start dating afterward. Yes. We met in the film program and it was a similar kind of thing. We're like, it was more at the end of our college term, but we're like, we just got to make stuff. Yeah. Do you want to get together and make stuff? That's great. Yeah. We found each other. Yeah. It's so special. But I remember feeling in 2012, like we were late to the sketch comedy game because it had been going on for so long on YouTube. So I'm curious if you ever have those kinds of doubts or, you know, I think it is different now with the rise of short form videos like Instagram and TikTok. They have given a new life to sketch comedy. But yeah, were you ever like, huh, it's all been done or like I'm getting in on this late? I mean, we saw the type of content that was being put out from some of our favorite creators. Like Matt and Justice were kind of like people that we've been like, man, if we only had a channel like them, do you know who I'm talking about? I don't. Well, yeah, they do some really great stuff. And then, but also we wanted to, like even from the get, I grew up obsessed with Key and Peel. Okay. Yeah. And like, and then when I think you should leave came out, that became something that we started watching. I didn't necessarily want to make like internet content. I kind of, I actually was like always like, I was refusing to do vertical. I'm only doing horizontal. We're going to shoot with real cameras. We're going to, we're going to get the lighting good. We're going to use lobs. Like that was from the get. We were like, we want to do sketch comedy online at the same level as Key and Peel. That was the goal. And then, and then like we posted on TikTok like one time and it was like 10 times more views than any other platform and we're like, okay, fine, we'll do vertical. You know what I mean? But like it took a while to go to, to finally get me to, to agree to the vertical thing, but it's still, we were like, fine, we'll do vertical, but we're keeping it cinematic. We're keeping it like high quality. So I don't know. We, we weren't chasing, we were kind of just chasing like Key and Peel. Okay. We were like, let's make the funniest Key and Peel sketches ever. And not necessarily chasing like whatever was working on like Vine and stuff. Right. But back to what you were saying earlier, because I thought you were about to touch on something really interesting about like working with A-Listers for the first time. I, I was really scared. Like, Indy and Michael are great and they're, and, but it wasn't like intimidating because it felt like we were all kind of, it just didn't feel intimidating. Right. It was like, we're all coming up together. They're not like huge names that no one knows. They've all been, they've had their credits. Like I know Indy was in Superman and Lois, but like, yeah, it felt like we were all on the same level kind of. Yeah. Like it's, it's the same stakes for everyone here. Yeah. This movie means a lot to everyone here. Right. Right. And so I was like nervous about like the easy way out for me was like, well, maybe we can just cast no names for this. And then I can just like kind of tell them to do whatever I want because I was just scared. That, and it's so funny because like I'm pretty comp, like I'm pretty confident guy when it comes to like my vision and stuff, but that is the one thing I was like scared. I think also scared of like them trying to change my vision because they are bigger, you know, and not having the guts to tell them no, because I look up to them so much. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like they do, they give you a take where it's just not at all what you're thinking, but you're just like. Because yeah, because they're Aaron Paul and Bryce Ellis Howard. Yeah. It was so, I remember the first day Aaron Paul showed up. He was like so nice. He was shaking everybody's hand. He's literally the nicest guy ever, which is his reputation. Everyone knows it, but he's he lives up to that. He's so nice. And he was like wanting my direction so bad. And my dad gave me this advice of like, Curry, if you don't direct them, you're going to let them down. Like they want you to be the director that they saw an obsession. They want you to tell them what they're supposed to do and guide the ship. And so with that in mind, I was like on day one directing him, but he was so so open to it. And it was like, Oh, thank God. And I was like, this is this is working. And then same thing with Bryce. I mean, she was she was like, you know, really, really receptive to anything I would say. So it's just like, I think the A-listers, they love being directed. They love having a director with a vision. So they don't want to have to do with themselves. Yeah, they crave that. Yeah. So it's it's great. It was great. It sounds like your dad's really supportive and it sounds like you can, you know, bounce ideas off of him. I know. It's like your dad giving you directing advice. I'm like, wow, that's awesome. Yeah. Was he in the arts? Did he? He's just well, I mean, he's just a very like, he's just a well rounded psychology guy. You know, he is a psych. He was a psychiatric nurse practitioner. Okay. But I guess what I'm saying is like, he's always just he's a good advice guy. Yeah. He understands people. Yeah. He understands people and like he understands seems to have a really deep understanding of the industry in a way as well. Nice. But he is a full time screenwriter now. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's awesome. I know. Is there any interest in like working with him? What? Or is that just? We wrote a film together that is kind of still pretty early on. Like it's it's a draft, but it's not it's not nearly done. But yeah, it's something that we're experimenting with. I mean, I'm just I've got like the next three years of my life already kind of playing out. So it's it's kind of tough. But yeah, you do a lot of things when it comes to making the movies, like in Milk and Serial, I think aren't you credit as composer as well? Yeah. And just like everything. So what are your favorite aspects of filmmaking and what are the ones that you just did because you had to? I mean, music is up there. I love music. Yeah. I mean, it's so important to me. Sound design is so important to me. Like the edit is so important to me, too. But the funny thing is that I'm looking forward to the day that I can find an editor. Like I'm looking for trust. Yeah, that can like it's a lot of work, but it's not it's not something I'm not up for. But it's like it's something that could streamline the process while I'm working on my next thing, but also could where I could sit down with them and kind of I just I don't I'm so nervous to give that position away. And I want to find someone that is like my guy like like Rocky is my composer. I will be working with him for the foreseeable as long as he wants to work with me. He's so good and he gets my voice so well. Same thing with my my DP, Taylor Clemens, who shot obsession. He shot my next movies doing Texas. Like we just understand each other so well. Our tastes are so similar. Like we both hate and love the same movies. We both love and hate the way things look the way they should be colored, the lighting, everything like our tastes is the same. So I found it. Like I found them, but I have yet to find my editor and I'm looking forward to that day. Not because I don't enjoy the process, but just because it would be so nice to have a collaborator in that world as well. Yeah. I mean, two things that I are very important to you are, you know, you have a comedy background and you say like sound and music are very important to you. And those are things that depend on rhythm. There's a mood to them. There's a rhythm. There's a pacing. And that's what editing is. Editing is so it's timing. You have to have, I think, a musicality to be an editor. Like it's an underrated part of that job, I think. That's what I, like when we were in film school, that's like one of the things I specialized because I love editing. And like it's a hard thing where you can't, you can't like teach it. It's a thing where like you understand it or you don't. It's like a feeling. It is a feeling. That's why it's hard to find someone that you can vibe with. And has the same instincts. Yeah. It's probably the hardest thing in the world to find. And it's always going to be fine tuned. Like, but I think what, what like finding a collaborator in Taylor Clemens, finding a collaborator in Rocky has kind of showed me that it's never, it's not just giving up that part of the process. It's not like I'm giving up the music or giving up the way the movie looks in the cinematography. It's a collaboration. Like that's my biggest fear is giving up the edit to someone else. But it isn't, it isn't that you're still the director. Yeah. Kind of they live by what you do. Because once you find someone who like you said is on the same page, has the same likes as you, then they're just going to be giving you surprises and gifts that you may not have found on your own. Yeah. Well, that's why, yeah, I was, you know, directors like Scorsese Tarantino, they stick with, you know, Sally Menke, Verna Fields, Thelma Schumacher, like they find those people and just stick with them as long as they can because it's that we, it's that mental kind of connection that, yeah, it's hard. It's like this weird and tangible thing that it's hard to find. It's so, so particular. You're so right about that. Like it's, it's even just, you can like close your eyes and be like cut. Like sometimes that's how I cut my movies. It's like, I hear the line and I'm like, it should cut to her now. It's like, it's a feeling of like, you should have cut to the next, it's a flow. When I used to do editing live streams on my channel where I would just like live stream the editing process. And I mean, there were some of those that went 12 hours with me just sitting there and people being like, how are you still doing this? Like this is what it takes. But people would often ask me advice on how to edit videos. And one of the first things I would say is edit by sound. Yeah. So like looking at the shot and like waiting for someone to finish saying their line and like going off of the looks, just like close your eyes, edit by sound. And that will give you the rhythm that you want. There's a science to J cuts is like you typically you hear something before you see it. So like if I'm looking here and you say, hey, Curry, and I turn and look at you, I heard you and then I looked at you. That's basically the science of a J cut, right? You hear the subject and then you look at it. Yeah, it wouldn't start on me. Yeah, right. Hey, Curry, I'm sorry to hear you. Yeah, exactly. In other exciting career news, I know you can't talk a lot about it, but Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Yeah. Texas Chainsaw Massacre, my favorite horror movie of all time. I was over the moon when I heard about this. Great. I was like, this is made for me. I can't wait. I just think this is such a great fit for you. Thank you. Just the themes of obsession and just what it deals with. And I think the underlying kind of, I mean, it's horrifying on the surface, but there is such a, there's an empathy once you start digging underneath all the crazy. And that's how I feel about the original Texas Chainsaw too. Yeah, yeah. And I'm so excited to see how you kind of bring that sensibility to it. I know it's gonna be gross as fuck, but there's gonna be that kind of heart, I think. Yeah, like you should care enough about the characters that when they die, you're sad, you know, which I feel like they did really good in the first one. Yeah, how many of those movies have you seen? Because I think there's 10 of them maybe? Yeah, there's 10. Okay. And I'm on my journey right now. I've started, I've been like on the whole, like, it's a train. It's a mess of a franchise. Yeah, the canon is all over the place. Yes. There's even the name of the family changes. Yeah. From Sawyer to White, the Wyatts or the Whittor. Like, are they the Sotters? No. The Slaughter. Slaughter is the name of the novel. Which is kind of on the nose. Yeah. But then there's the, it's the 2003 remake and the 2006 sequel. Prequel, yeah. It's like, it's called the Wyat family, I think. Oh, I think you're right, yeah. Yeah, it's like completely. Like, like WWE, like the Wyat family? Maybe, like the Wyat family, yeah, maybe. Or something with the WH. Have you made it that far? Have you done, because I find the third and fourth. There's like sexy Leatherface, right? And the newer ones, isn't there like the one where it's like, it's the, you think Leatherface is the one guy? You're talking about the 2017 Leatherface movie that I just watched. Yeah. You just got that one. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can't, I don't even think I'm publicly allowed to. Right. I always find the third and the fourth entry is the most interesting, just because like the third one is so forget, but you have like Ken Foray and Vigo Mortisen in it. Yeah. And then the fourth one is infamous for Matthew McConaughey and Renee Zellweger. Yeah, yeah. And they're just like, they're messes. It's insane. It does go kind of crazy. When the Illuminati show up in a biplane at the end of part four, you're like, what are we doing? Yeah. Yeah. I have admittedly not gotten that to there yet. Oh, okay. I will. Okay. Yeah. Well, sorry for the spoiler. No, yeah. So yeah, the Canon's kind of, I was going on a journey of like figuring out like, what Canon people care about, what Canon people don't care about, but also figuring out what I care about and like what I'm drawn to and what I like. And I mean, there's a lot of really beautiful nuggets in Texas Chainsaw 2. Two I love. Yeah. Yeah. It's leapt on. And I agree. Yeah. It's because like Toby Hooper, they wanted him to make a sequel, but he didn't want to just do the same thing again. So he goes in a completely different direction. But I mean, so many people love Chop Top and it's like, he's not even in the first movie. I know. Yeah. I love Chop Top as a character. Yeah. And I think it was Zach Kroger that told me that that Beetlejuice was based off of Chop Top. Did you know? I have heard that before. Wait, really? I've heard that before. I don't know if it's like, that might be apocryphal, but it makes sense. They're very similar characters. Like he talks really fast and he's kind of weird. Yeah. Like the boys. Yeah. He's gross. He's like scratching his head and his scale points. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I'm just excited to like bring to life some of the stuff that has kind of been forgotten and like also not focused on like, I got kind of like, you, I realized you have to be so careful what you say because people will like, really, like I think I said in one interview that the original was good for its time and everyone just like destroyed me for that. I'm not saying it's not good now. Yeah. And that it doesn't hold up. I'm saying that like when it came out, it was crazy. Everyone thought, actually, I don't know the history of like, but at that time, there wasn't as much brutalness in film. I mean, it was extremely ahead of its time. That's what I was trying to say. Yeah. We have a very good podcast episode about it. If you want to listen to it. A lot of research into like the socioeconomic background. Dude, that's going to be research for me. I'm going to watch that. I've done a lot of research. That's very helpful. Yes. Thank you. You mentioned Key and Peele, which I love them because I feel like I've seen so much of it. And yet continuously, there will be a sketch posted online where I'm like, I haven't seen this one. It's still really good. It's not even like a throwaway one. But what other comedic influences did you have growing up? Oh, man, I love Will Ferrell. Like I would watch the other guys over and over again. That movie is so funny. And it kind of reminds me that comedy, like the comedy and obsession is very, it's a very fine line because when you're doing a horror movie, the comedy can never come at the expense of the danger or the stakes. Because once you cross that line, it's silly. And then it becomes more comedy than horror. And then you don't feel nervous for the character's safety anymore because you're like, oh, this lives in a jokey world. Right? Yes. But movies like the other guys do live in that jokey world. And it's OK. We just accept, oh, people are aiming for the bushes and jumping off of it. Yes. I was going to ask, I couldn't remember if that's the movie where they jump off the roof in the middle of the year. Being my Fortnite squad, I mentioned that all the time. Anytime we jump off and then die, we're like, we other guys did. Yeah. Yeah. It's so funny. Yeah. I mean, that movie is so funny. 21 Jump Street was so funny to me growing up. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Jeff. And so I'm kind of like co-writing with Cooper and then another person that I'm not going to say because it hasn't been announced yet, name, but we're working on a TV show. And it's hard comedy. It's like allowing us to do the other guys. Right? Because I just I never get to. It's kind of an homage to our channel where a waiter can go crazy and it's funny. And there's no stakes to it because it lives in a world that's kind of a little, you're not going to do that. Right? Yeah. But in horror, it's like I have to balance reality because it's got to feel real and these characters have to feel real. But then wanting to take some of my horror and bring that into comedy in a world where the consequences of characters actions still feel real so that you do care about the stakes of the world. The movies you've cited, the other guys in 21 Jump Street, both have this very like they're not just silly, goofy comedies. They also have a cinematic style to them that I think really enhances the comedy. And it's something you see in stuff like Game Night is one of my favorite movies. Yeah. Similar kind of thing. And like it'll get dark. It'll get violent. And you'll be concerned for the character's safety. Exactly. Yeah. So I can see your taste in comedy. Yeah. So like you start making sketch comedy on YouTube and then what kind of makes you pivot or just embrace horror and start doing that alongside? Like were you always a horror fan or did it come later? I mean, I've always been a horror fan. The first film I ever made out here was a short film called Real World. That's like 30 minutes long. And it's a serial killer horror movie that so like from the moment I got here, I was trying to make horror. So it's not like I was doing comedy and pivoted into horror. But I will say the chair, which is a short film I did, really started to pick things up for me and be like, whoa, maybe horror is like a lane for me. Yeah. You know, because there's a difference between being a horror fan and just eating it up versus like being a horror creator. So like the chair just like blew up on YouTube as like a short horror film on YouTube that you have to check out. And I was like, I love this. I like I enjoyed making this so much. It was that intentional? Did you when you made the chair where you like we're going to try extra hard with this one or did it just? No, no, absolutely not. Yeah. It was it was actually like an idea that was felt kind of abstract and like people were telling me it kind of didn't make sense to them and I shouldn't make it. And it was kind of like screw you. I'm going to make it. It's going to be you just don't get it. You know, some of those things it was like this might suck, but whatever. I'm going to make it anyway. You know what I mean? Yeah. But I'm going to go full tilt into what I want it to be even if that ends up sucking. And then you use that same actor in Milk and Cereal, right? Yeah, the old old man. Well, we call him the old man in so many different. He plays he plays the old man in the chair. And then he kind of was the old man idea of what we had in Milk and Cereal. But his name is is John Cripple. And he's great. Yeah. He's so good in Milk and Cereal and such a sad story for him. Oh my God. It's so sad. I'm going to have to find a place to put John Cripple in one of my films one day. Like as like a Easter egg or something. Yeah. Obsession. Yeah. I think it's time for like I want to talk about Milk and Cereal, but you know, I've already I've already covered it and done my research. I don't know if there's anything you want to say about Milk and Cereal. I know that what you didn't you sit on it for like two years before deciding to release it to YouTube? Yeah. Yeah. We sat on it for a while. Like I had already finished it, kind of been bored of it. Like didn't really care about it. It was kind of like that project that sits on the shelf and you're like, I don't know if I'm going to ever do anything with this. Did the length make it difficult for distributors or people because it's 60 minutes? It was an hour 20 actually. Oh, for all the distributors and stuff and like the cut that we sent out, it was an hour 20. Oh, OK. We just cut it down for YouTube because I think I had learned a lot over the years and like was like watching it. And I was like, you don't need this. You don't need that. You don't need this. And it wasn't one of those things where it had to be a feature link thing. Like you just said, like you could have a hard time. So I was like, screw this. I'm just going to make it as short as I can and make it as interesting and fun and quick as I can. That's kind of the YouTube cut. You know. Yeah. I mean, good instinct on that though, because I've compared it to Host, which is also 60 minutes long. The found footage over Zoom. I love that movie. Yeah. That movie is so scary. Yes, it is. That one's like that's actually fucking scary. Terrifying and like jump scares all over the place. Milk and cereal is different because it's more like disturbing. Yeah. I think working in both their favor is that like 60 minutes. That's how long it needs to be. That's how long it is. And it's like, we're not going to stretch it out. Host was impressively real. Like it felt. Just like those people felt real and you believe that they were on a Zoom and you believe to that. The acting was just really natural and good. And yeah, I was just impressed. Yeah. I just the 60 minutes thing is so clever to the fact that that's the length of a free Zoom call is so good. Oh yeah. That's great. I forgot about that part. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. But obsession. Obsession. Yeah. So which by the time you're watching this, it's out. It's out. You should have already seen it. The box office is blowing up. It's blowing up. Manifesting. Yeah. It's just blown past avatar. It's crazy. Yeah. Right. It's crazy. Avengers can't touch it. Yes. Yeah. The day we're recording this is the premiere. The premiere is in a few hours, which is not as thank you for being here today. Thanks for having me. Um, so, okay. We saw this first South by Southwest and coming out of it, like we'd been talking to people all day because we've been running into dead meat fans and everyone we ran into was like, oh obsession. It's so fucking crazy. It's so scary. You're going to. And every time we met someone who said that we would get more and more nervous because whenever we get a horror movie hyped up, it's like, you know, you know, the expectation, the build and the build and you see it and sometimes it's a letdown. You know, I agree. Yeah. That wasn't the case for this one. It was it was incredible how much that I was so like amazed it lived up to the hype. And then coming out of that movie, I was texting our good friend, BJ Colangelo from Slashfilm. And we were both so taken aback by the fact that we just couldn't get over the fact that like, Molly, that a 20-something year old dude wrote it. Yeah. And so far, and the movie hasn't hasn't come out yet, but, you know, while we're recording this, but like every single woman that I've talked to who has seen this, it's really resonated with. Was that something that while you were writing it, you were conscious of? Is that something you set out to do? Or was that just like kind of is that just something that has that just kind of happened with that story, a byproduct of this story you just wanted to tell? I mean, I love writing female characters. Like as a matter of fact, like I have this one idea that I pitched. I've pitched all over town that if I wasn't doing Texas, it would be my thing I'm doing next, which is a female lead. I just love to write female characters. I don't know what it is. I don't know. I didn't mean to like resonate with women. I mean, I'm glad that it's happening. But well, and also, I mean, Indie brought a lot of herself to this. Like she's there's a lot of women involved in this movie. Our producer, Haley Johnson, who was so involved in creating this movie, this movie wouldn't have gotten made without Haley Johnson working her ass off. Indie Navarretti brought her ideas to some of this stuff. You're seeing women in this movie. Megan Lawless is fantastic. Yeah. Not that this really speaks from like a writing standpoint, but our set designer, Vivian Gray, production designer, her official title, Vivian Gray is a woman. I think that speaks to the importance and honestly, why it's cool to have diversity behind cameras, even if writer, director is a specific person, having that kind of you know, diverse spread behind camera. You get a totally different spin on the thing you wrote in the first place. Yeah. It adds texture. They're consultants. Yeah. Like consulting and the people around you. And I think like being a director is not about being this like dictator type of it's my way or the highway. Like it's a collaboration. Like I think the best directors, it's more about knowing exactly what the movie is. Like knowing what the voice of the movie that you're trying to tell is and like having a strong vision for the direction that the movie should go. And then every idea is like anyone could come up with a good idea. Not a tour, but more conductor kind of like you're moving all the pieces. Finding the people who will bring your vision to life and also add to it. Yeah. It's yes and yeah. And it's so many of the things that happen are from other people, but you just you're steering the direction, right? You're directing it. But there's such thing as being too loose with that where you lose all direction and the movie doesn't know what it is anymore. Right. So you have people need an answer when they ask a question. Exactly. Having an answer for every question, being confident about the answers and but not having an ego about, oh, well, this isn't my idea. It's your idea. So it's not, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, knowing when to say yes, knowing when to say no, to get a cohesive idea. I remember at the after party and I'm curious that this has happened since there were, there was like a, I forget what you asked Curry about, but you asked if something was intentional. It was the poison at the end, him using poison, which I said is traditionally thought of as like a woman's way of killing themselves as opposed to more violent male way with like a gun or something. Yeah. Same with him owning a cat is seen as a very feminine kind of drink. And his drink order is like, like a family drink. Right, right, right. And I think you said like, oh, no, that wasn't intentional. Yeah. I said something to the effect of like, oh, you're getting Kubricked in real time where people like you've made such a good film that people are reading into these little choices that were maybe not intentional, but are connecting. Yeah, like assigning meaning has anything else like that happened where people have read into certain things where you're like, oh, that wasn't even an intentional choice, but maybe it was something subconscious. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that happens a lot on the online too. Like the chair was so, you can see so many long, the chair represents this and this is from this. And when he said this line, he was actually referring to this and you're just like laughing, but you're like, kind of makes weird sense. Yeah, you're like, oh, yeah, okay. Yeah. It milk and cereal too. Like people have said this or this and I'm like, oh my gosh. A lot of speculation over that ending. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, which you said you did. Oh yeah, there was a Reddit post about your interpretation of the ending. Yeah, people said I was wrong, which I kind of liked what they said. What did you say? I said that it was because the camera gets picked up at the very end after the credits. And I said it was seven because we didn't hear anyone else enter the room. And I just, you know, time of death was there. So I figured milk was shot and killed by seven people were like, no, milk put a blank in the gun first. And then the second shot was milk. So this wasn't like, yeah, people were like milk thought out. And that's why when seven has the gun in his waistband, that's why milk is so, he tells him not to let it go off because he doesn't want that blank to go off because he has to get shot with a blank and then he can grab the gun. And kill seven and it's milk picking up the camera at the end. Wow. You want to know what I think it is? Sure. Because it's it's like different than both. Okay. So I think because we were thinking about maybe doing like a sequel that like kind of could hint at this or whatever. I think who somebody must have like posted this like milk and cereal kind of or sorry, milk kind of like got his goal as far as like who edited this movie. Like who and I was thinking that Sterling, who's our good friend, who plays the other friend, the third guy, he's in on the whole thing. Okay. Like Link. Is that? Link. Yeah. So if Link was Milk's partner and actually knows he's a killer and actually like helps him. Yeah. Is like the one that picks up the camera. Maybe Milk is dead and but maybe Link like is the one that found the footage, edited the footage and got it out there. Because he and Naomi were like on the trail and Naomi by the way doesn't know. Sure. Yeah. Like but what if there is the scene where Milk tells Link, you know, the start of his plan. So it's like, oh, if that scene, if we saw the rest of it, maybe he told them everything. Exactly. Okay. And they've been in on this thing for like he knows like they almost because there's no way Milk's doing this all by himself all the time. There's got to be some sick guy that knows all the answers and stuff. Right. And only a sicko would wear a headband like that. Yeah. But we were thinking like if we ever did a sequel, it would be probably playing into like Milk's video does go viral and does inspire other people. And there's a woman who like isn't super inspired by Milk's video and wants to do the same thing. Which is kind of like the Joker in the way of like the Joker lives on through the Joker. Right. Like that like Milk lives on through and kind of like moving the legacy and like. Yeah. Kind of. I think that would be a cool sequel. There'd be an appetite for it. People love it. Okay. Wait, while we're back on Milk and Serial, it's very rare that we have someone here who's both like written and has acted as like a character. We do a thing in our channel where we, do you watch Survivor? Are you familiar with Survivor? I'm familiar. Yeah. Okay. We do a thing on our channel where we basically do like a tabletop role playing version of Survivor, but with horror characters. Wow. How do you feel Milk would fare on like a desert island, like in a desert island setting? He's very manipulative. Okay. Yes. So he might. Social game. Yeah. Social game. But he's also like, I think his manipulation comes from that people underestimate him. Like he plays into, I don't know anything about that. Like he's really good at playing dumb or innocent, which is something that Bear does too. Bear plays into this kind of. He's a nice guy. Yeah. Yeah. He plays, but he plays into that. Yeah. He's like, I know that I come off as a shy, nice guy and I'm going to like play into that. Yeah. And I love that part of obsession, just his whole characterization because like, you know, it's his movie. He is the protagonist, but like, he's a son of a bitch. Yeah. Yeah. It gets revealed more and more as time goes on. And I've seen at least one review of the movie that I don't think understood that. We talked to someone in person. I think it was at South by. We talked to someone who I think didn't quite get that you weren't supposed to be on his side the whole time. Yeah. And it was honestly a little chilling. I was, I was like, like the hairs on my neck stood up a little bit where I was like, poof. Because yeah, it's pretty clear. I mean, I'll tell you this. I designed it to be not too in your face of like, you have to feel this way. Yes. That's why I like it. Yeah. I never want to like point the camera at the answer of like, hey, this guy's bad, you know, but the writing's on the wall. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I like it because it's the movie so character driven and it's very much a characters first and it provokes conversation. It's not a discourse first story comes from it. Second. I hate that. I hate that. Yeah. Even when you agree with the points being made, you're like, but I still want to, I would rather have it given to me in a more interesting way. That's being told to my face. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, like from the first scene with the waitress as practice, Chelsea pointed out. I love this first scene because the first scene at first, it's very funny that reveal of the waitress. Right. Like it's such a great gag and it gets such a lot like the times we've seen it, it's such a big laugh. And but I remember thinking after, you know, the movie's over, I thought back to that scene and that scene is so sinister when you think back to it because it's like using like a woman as a prop. It's using, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's like it's taking time out of this woman's like day. She's on the clock, you know, she's got to work. She's trying to earn tips. And then when she gives them suggestions, I'm like, they don't listen. They're like, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. It's like they don't even care about the woman's perspective. Yeah. No, we know better. So I think I think that sets the tone right off. Yes. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. It's it's not like I tried necessarily to do that exact thing, but I knew that it was playing with like, I knew I knew who Ian's character was enough to know that he wouldn't he would not value whatever this woman was saying. Yeah. And he's like, he's got he's like, bro, I know how to do this. Like just make fun of her. You know, like he's kind of that guy of like, don't buy her flowers. It's so lame. You know, like I knew I knew the character as well because I actually that was like one of the last scenes I wrote because we the the original opening was very different. Oh yeah. Is it a scene that's still in the movie or is it gone entirely? It's gone entirely. It was something I was holding on to so desperately. That'll happen. Yeah. It was it started on the TV. And it was like a romantic movie playing. And then it moved down and you see the dead cat and then it moves upside down onto bear watching the movie. And obviously that's the last shot of the movie as well. Yeah. Her on the couch. Boom. TV credits. So it was the opposite. It was TV dead cat then bear. So I was like, oh, it's this like perfect. Marking. Yeah. Like the last shot of the movie is the same as the first shot of the movie. As a director, I was like, you can't cut my story to my ending. My I think we got we got a few like in the test screening. It was kind of like people didn't understand the whole thing you were kind of saying about like bear. They were like, why is he they were very frustrated. And they were like, why is he not like trying harder to fix this? And so you kind of have to think about the note behind the note, which was everybody wants me to take these this test screening and make it make bear go on a journey to fix this. I'm going to take that feedback and flip it. I'm going to make it I'm going to make it more clear that bear wants desperately to make this work. So that opening like you see his love for Nikki a lot more and you have this monologue where he's going on about it. And then that scene where he he wakes up or they wake up in the morning and she's sitting on the couch and he's like, so can we talk about last night? And she's like, sure. And he's like, don't do that anymore. You know what scene I'm talking about? Yes. Yeah. That that was all weird. Yeah, more normal. Yeah. Beat stop. One of my favorite scenes in the entire movie. Thank you. I love that scene too. And it was from it was part of the rewrites because I was like, I got to make it more clear to these people that he'll he knows kind of what's happening, but he wants to make it work. And so he's kind of telling her like, just don't do that anymore. I just love that he's trying. I mean, it's the thing where like if you put someone on a pedestal so hard and let's say you do get together with them and you've essentially treated them like this cartoon character of a person. Yeah, like a Barbie doll and you get together with them and you realize, oh no, they're a person who has feelings and it does weird shit. It has bodily functions and is gross and cries. And you know, that scene where she's crying and saying, I can't be what you want. It made me tear up the second time because I really felt for this, not Nikki because she can't be. Yeah, yeah. She can't. Yeah, it's kind of playing with just humanity of kind of your desire to want something, even if it's a physical thing, like even if it's like I want this new phone so bad. It's that thing of like once you have that phone for two months, you're like, it's the same as my last phone. I mean, that kind of makes it sound really kind of like I literally objectified a woman just now. That's what he's doing. Yeah, exactly. That's what Vera's doing. That is, yeah. And it leads to what I think is the scariest part of the whole movie. And you mentioned that note about that you flipping audience notes around on themselves where you're like, okay, instead of him trying to fix it, I'm just going to make him like really avoid trying to fix it and really try to make it work where she wakes up and asks him to kill her. And he just is too proud of himself and is too stubborn and just doubles down and says something to the effect of like, well, would it be so bad to be with me? I got chills and like full body. And it's kind of like the thing of like the things that you do when nobody is looking is the person that you really are, right? Right. And but also playing with like what you were just saying a second ago of like when you finally get to know someone, you get their bodily fluids and all the things that make them a human and like maybe. Being in a relationship and being intimate screws. Yeah. But it's like something that takes time. And that's kind of the big theme in this movie is that love takes time versus like romance is kind of like more materialistic. It's literally like I want it now and not like earning it. But like if I could have it now, right? Like even even a house, like if you if you were like you like bought a huge, you won the lottery and got a huge house and then you spend all your money and like you have this nice house. I bet it doesn't feel the same as if you spent years saving up for it and then you earned this house. You're like, yeah, and we're going to paint the walls this and you know what I mean? It's like earning thing. Kind of makes me think I imagine we can't see what they're watching on TV, but I imagine they're watching like a rom-com or something and they're both staring straight ahead and she just wants to look at him because she's in love with him. Yeah. And he's like, no, no, no. Let's watch the maybe presumably romance on screen. The easy thing. Yeah. You know, the instant gratification thing. Right. Yeah. Some of the scariest moments of the movie for me are when real Nikki comes up beneath the surface like in the scene where she's asleep or in the scene at the party where she's like, this, this, this isn't me. Yeah. Like that just fucking scares the hell out of me or when he calls customer service. And it's just like, is that you on the phone? Yeah. Okay. That's okay. The second time we watched I was like, I think that's crazy. Yeah, that's me. Yeah. But when you're like, do you want to hear her and you just hear this screaming and it's like this otherworldly screaming and it never goes back to that or over explains it and I love that. Yeah. I don't ever want to know like what's going on there. I love it. Exactly. It's like, I never want that explained. I don't want to know. It's so. It's better that way. It's so scary. Yeah. And then I was really amazed by it was kind of not until the second time we watched it that we fully understood the ending and I think we had a weird sound mix at South by. Oh, yeah. Yes, because we couldn't hear the snap. Yeah. And the jingle. Oh, really? Yes. For the for the end. Yes. When he's in the bathroom. And now you could the second time. We saw it over. We clearly heard it. And we were like, oh, yeah, because it makes so much sense. And like, I apologize to Ben, who's I'm sorry. Listening to this episode and hasn't seen the movie yet. Oh, no. You're going to love it. Ben. Yeah, it doesn't matter if you've seen the spoilers. The fact that like he goes through this process and he gets on the brink of killing himself to finally release her. But then you see him fucking was out at the last minute and try to throw up the pills. And I just love that he ends up getting like hoisted by his own petard because in the process of trying to undo this thing, Nikki breaks it. And I'm assuming wishes that he would love her. Exactly. What's the one thing she would wish for? Yeah, it makes total sense. Yeah. And because of that, he stops trying to purge the poison goes out there to be with her and then like, yeah, yeah, fucking such a good ending. Like for him, both options at that point are so selfish because even if he did kill himself, she's left with his fucking mess. Yeah. I mean, she's like she's killing everyone. It's oh, man, it's so evil. It's so evil. It is. It's so it's kind of like one of those would you rather questions where both outcomes are bad. But it's like, that's the game. You have to answer which one would you rather? Yeah. And a lot of people don't talk about that like there is this like super morally dark question that I want people to walk away with is like, what would you do in this situation? What is the right answer? Because both there's obviously the question of like you hear the the guy on the phone, which is me, but you hear him say sounds to me like you have a moral obligation to be there for her. Yeah. Since you're the one that chose this for her. So on one hand, you're thinking like whatever spell Nikki this is, whatever person this is, she genuinely does want to be with him and she would be miserable. Whatever entity this is, it would be miserable if he left her. Yeah. I don't know if he'd have that option too, because you'd probably find and kill him. But like you have like an obligation to be there for her. And then on the other hand, the only way out and this is just major spoiler territory is to off yourself. Yeah. And so it's like, which one do you choose? Do you stay with her? And it's like weird because you know it's not really her and it's kind of like not her choice. Or do you kill yourself? And like if you're choosing kill yourself, you have to argue that like killing yourself is the right answer for anything, which is like a hard thing to do in this PC world. Sure. So it's both like it's kind of like that thing of like both answers are going to have an argument of like it's wrong. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Because it's like when you think about it, what you've done is you've created an entirely new person. Like you've created it's like a Frankenstein thing. Yeah. Like you're not making this person love you. You're creating an entirely new person who just looks like that person. And I noticed the second time that she even takes on aspects of his personality. Like she said something about I'm trying to think there were two things I noticed where she first says like her cat. Yeah, she says her cat. Oh wait, no, you're and she's talking about yeah, the stuff with her dad. Did he mention at the beginning about his dad? No, but his grandma. It was his grandma. Okay. Yeah. But but but I think what you're seeing there is like whatever this entity is, it's just now there. It like was just born. And so it's kind of like still figuring out the context of whatever this, you know what I mean? It's like and so it messes up the cat thing, which is so creepy and weird to mess up. But you're watching this thing kind of trying to figure out and change tactics of like how can I get this guy to take me home? Yeah. And and so when she realizes that she's coming off too strong, she switches tactics to like feel bad for me. My dad's dying and it's like I'll do anything. Just take me home. Like it's like, oh my gosh. We're just about out of time, but I do want to talk about Indy just a little bit because I mean, this is a fucking amazing performance. I've seen people compare it to Tony Collette and her editorial. Oh, yes. And I'm like, good, yes, she deserves that. Literally counting down like, I don't know how many hours until the premiere, but until she's like a fucking star. Yeah. So just briefly like how did she become attached to the project? Did you know her before this or where? No, I mean, we did such a big process for casting Nikki like so many tapes and but Capstone who financed this movie, they had already done a couple of movies with Indy and we're a big fan of her and they kind of introduced me to her. And so we had her in. We already kind of knew Michael was well, we we actually were it was a whole chemistry read. We had a few actors that day for for Michael and for for Nikki. But they did a chemistry read together. What she really brought to to Nikki was I had I had kind of written Nikki as this really sweet kind girl next door, like like a sweetheart kind of like Southern, not not like an accent, but I'm from Alabama where like it's just there's a sweetness and like she brought this sassiness to Nikki. Yeah. And this kind of bro-iness that really I was like, oh my god, this is perfect because it just added to the friend zone of of, you know, bear. And by making her such like kind of like a fierce independent woman. Totally. She's cool girl. Yeah, exactly. And the contrast to her being this like pathetic obsessive. It was the perfect thing because she becomes the girl next door when she's the possessed version or whatever you want to call it. So starting from a contrast. So this is what I'm saying when like people will change like working with her probably is reason that a lot of women are resonating with, you know what I mean? It's like people will add their thing to it. Yes, for sure. Yeah. Well, dude, thank you so much. Oh, thank you. Such an awesome conversation. Yes, thank you. We could talk for so much more. I know I have so many more questions. There's a premiere to get to today. Yes. Yeah, but I appreciate it and this has been awesome. You guys are awesome. And I want to watch more of these death count things because it sounds sick. Yeah, for sure. All right. Well, thank you for being here until next time. I'm Chelsea. I'm James. And that's Curry. And I'm Curry. Yeah. And that was Ben helping us out. Getting spoiled. Oh, that sucks, but yeah. This has been the Dead Meat Podcast.