From a $150k Indie to making massive Box Office Hits, Directing Rom-Coms & Making 'You, Me & Tuscany' with Kat Coiro and Will Packer

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Filmmakers Podcast. This is a podcast where we talk filmmaking from indie film to studio films and everything in between, how to get them made, how to make them and how to try and to F it up in our very, very humble opinion. I'm Giles Alderson. I'm a writer, director and a producer. And welcome back to the Filmmakers Podcast. Grab your passports, ladies and gentlemen, because today we're jetting off to Italy. We're not, actually, but we're in for an absolute masterclass in crafting the perfect modern romantic comedy. And we have two absolute titans of the industry with us today. First up, she's a Gracie Award-winning, DGA-nominated director who knows exactly how to balance massive laughs with genuine heart. She directed the hit Jennifer Lopez rom-com, Maric. She steered the ship as a director and exec producer on Marvel's She-Hulk attorney at law and has brought her brilliant vision to hit shows like Dead to Me, Girls Forever and the new Matlock reboot. It is the brilliant Cat Coiro. Cat Coiro. And sitting alongside her is a man who literally holds the blueprint for box office gold. He's a powerhouse producer whose films have grossed over 1 billion worldwide. He gave us massive comedies like Girls Trip, Ride Along, Think Like a Man and Night School. And he produced the Oscar-nominated powerhouse straight out of Compton. I love that movie. He is the founder of Will Packer Productions. It is Will Packer. And they're here today to talk about their gorgeous, effortlessly charming new feature, You Meet in Tuscany, which is out in cinemas right now. The film stars Halle Bailey, Reggie Jean Page and Michelle Maron. It follows Anna, played by Halle Bailey, who impulsively travels to Italy after her life unravels, only to accidentally end up pretending to be a handsome stranger's fiancée until his undeniable cousin shows up and threatens to unravel the whole beautiful lie. So in this episode, we cover an unbelievable amount of ground. we talk about why romantic comedies are finally making a massive comeback and why you must always respect your audience. Kat shares her incredible indie origins, like making a very first feature for just 150k in 11 days and how starting in the run and gun world teaches you how to pivot on set. We also dive deep into the nuts and bolts of the industry. We discuss the absolute importance of scheduling, producing in a foreign country, adapting to the cultures of different crews, and why directing is exactly like being the conductor of an orchestra. Will breaks down exactly what producers are looking for when they pick directors, how to pitch and stick to your ideas, and the magic of true collaboration. It's an absolute goldmine of a vice. And Dom LeMoy joined me, and we sat down in a beautiful London hotel. And at the beginning of the episode, by the way they're joined by a whole host of pr and the company behind them and you hear them at the beginning and you hear them at the end as well it's kind of lovely we had an audience for this one it's really nice to do but it was a real treat and they're such beautiful people and brilliant filmmakers so it's a delight so get grab a brew get your no pads out and please welcome to the show, Kat Koyuro and Will Packer. Hey. Hey, all right. What up? Hi. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. This is Dawn. Hey, Will. What's going on? Why are you? The pleasure's mine. Hey, man. Good to meet you. What's going on? It's a cool jacket. Hey, thank you, brother. What's up? What's up? I'm on London. I'm on the jacket. I'm on the jacket. Are you really? I appreciate a good jacket. What's up, girl? How you doing? These are fun. What's up, people? What's up? Don't mind us American jet lag talk. Is this sofa helping? It looks with all the cushions. I need to knock. Are we starting? I need to knock me on the sofa. You need to have me. I should be doing this from a treadmill if you want me to make it to the end. Will, you talk. I'm going to fall asleep. No, don't. If you don't mind. Yeah, just gently sleep. We'll rock you to sleep. Thank you. Thank you. By the way, y'all have some great podcast voices. This is good. Thank you. I liked it. Wow. I don't mean that in the sense of like you couldn't do much else with your lives. What I mean is with these faces. We can't do much with these faces. I would definitely say that's our life now. Yeah, that's hilarious. That's hilarious. I love that. Rom-coms, it's so amazing how they're coming back. And I love that. The fact that they're coming back. I hope they're coming back. I'm a huge fan. You're bringing them back. They never left. They never left. They left a big screen, maybe, you could say. They left a big screen. And they became cynical. They did. And I think that rom-com. You got a good point about it. Tell them about your whole theory about like how rom-coms change. Yeah, I think like in the early 2000s, they took this turn for the kind of cynical, gross out, raunchy, you know, how much more shocking can we get hard are. And when we think of the rom-coms that we love from Roman Holiday to Sleepless in Seattle, they're not like that. They're about love and hope and a belief that the universe will take care of you. And so that's, if we're bringing anything back, it's bringing back the idea of joy. There you go. I love that. Bringing back joy. Why not? Why not? We all can use a little bit of that right now. I think so. The world is not as joyful as it can be. What are you guys talking about? What have you heard? I don't know. Nothing but joy in the high world. Everything's good in Tuscany, though. Yeah, everything's good in Tuscany. A lot of joy in Tuscany. Or in the podcast world, right? Oh, God. Yeah. Right? That's a bastion of positivity. Totally. throwing it back to Italy and Tuscany like you're one of your first films right you've shot in Italy in a very short space of time yes different smaller crew then I imagine to this one yes talk us through the differences between because obviously this is a filmmaking podcast this is a helping indie filmmakers go out there get the first film made which you both did and I'll come back to yours as well in four-worlding and everything you magically did but for you obviously going back to Italy as well after your sort of first triumph, shall we say, or your first rodeo? Oh, yeah. It was a triumph. It really was. We got $150,000 to make an indie. And I said, that's not a lot of money. I want to make sure that wherever I point my camera, it is going to be gorgeous. So if all else fails, I have this beautiful cinematic experience. and so it was me my sound guy who was also my editor a DP we had two 5D cameras I shot some he shot most of it and a producer that brings me back 5Ds well you know it was 2011 and one of like the most exciting moments of my life as a filmmaker was we sent it to Tribeca we got accepted in competition and they said did you guys do this on film and we were like yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah we do totally man was that a requirement back then no but they were just thought it looked so pretty and you know we shot it in 11 days i was eight months pregnant they almost didn't let me leave italy which i'm like why didn't i have my baby i could add an italian citizen baby three weeks three weeks i know you could have but then that might have been annoying in other ways right it wouldn't be nice to be at home you were eight months pregnant directing a feature film yeah and your debut at the time yeah and i wrote the whole script uh looking at like google maps and kind of because i'd never been to ischia before um and it was it was a great experience and obviously this is so different sure um but it was nice to come back to yeah i love that you i love that you use google maps because i do that as well when i'm when i'm writing a script i like do the script and i sort of have a vague idea but then it's like how can i actually get the accuracy of like this place how can I start imagining where it's set um I mean like how does that inform the process for both of you in terms of once you've got the script and then you start seeing the location and you start bringing the that kind of reality to where you might be shooting from a producer standpoint I am focused on resources and I'm trying to make sure that um we're getting the most bang for our buck and we're being efficient because you know my job is to beholden to the studio or financier or whatever it might be. And so I have to try to, while supporting the director's vision, make sure that we're doing it in a way that's responsible. So it's less about like the Google Maps version and a little bit more about the spreadsheets version. Sorry, boys and girls, this is it. The reality. Filmmaking is an economic endeavor at the end of the day. Although if those Google Map distances are this far, then it's less good for the Excel sheets. That is very true. I mean, in our Italian film, like one of the big things was how can we find all these locations in Tuscany in a really compact area so we could be responsible. Reduce our transportation and, you know, in the U.S. it'd be Teamsters, but just wherever you shoot, you know, having your drivers not have to work as hard and as long. And spending your time shooting instead of putting it on the screen. I mean, that's a big thing I think people can appreciate is because if you're spending it on things that people can't see, you're still spending the same money, but you're not putting it on, you know, the actors, the vistas, the number of takes that you want to take. So what's maybe some of the offsets of shooting in Tuscany versus shooting in America? Because maybe accommodation is a little bit less, maybe food costs, certain language barrier, language barrier, having to learn like the culture of a different crew so like if if cat and i were shooting in you know atlanta say like you know we're up to speed day one we're ready probably have worked with a bunch of the folks and we're ready to rock and roll there there is a little bit of a learning curve and getting up to speed with the crews and how they like to work and what the culture is of of that environment yeah and we were were very conscious both on the screen and off the screen of not just being an American production that kind of comes in and uses Italy Steamrolling, yeah. Yeah, you know, and so it was very much all a conversation and how do we honor this place that is giving us this incredible, rich world? And how do we bring the, you know, not just the landscapes and the sunrises, but the passion of the people and the authenticity of the food and the energy of this historic place. Yeah, well, I thought you did that so well with you, me and Tuscan. I really got a sense of place. I got a sense of the food, the vibe, the people. And it was all done in this beautiful little bubble of kind of magic Italian world and the sunsets and the light and the gorgeousness of this sort of romantic comedy that you've created. And it really is fantastic. I really enjoyed it. I suppose the difference then between your sort of run and gun of your first one to you and me in Tuscany. Just touch on that a little more as well for you as a director and how it felt different this time, you know, going back. Well, listen, I mean, one of the greatest gifts I have as a filmmaker is that early experience of running and gunning. And I love to look for people to collaborate with who also know how to do that. Will is one of them. He started in the run and gun world. My cinematographer started in documentary. And then we build up and we have more resources and we have more time. But when we come to a pinch, when something goes wrong, we know how to pivot and we know how to move fast and we know how to make quality things within creative constraints. Yes. And I will say that I think that's probably a fallacy of people, especially up and coming filmmakers. They think, OK, well, you got to do that. That first Indy one you do a guerrilla style, whatever it takes, you know, running gun, have to pivot all the time. And then you get studio budgets and oh, no, it's all good. Right. You can just do whatever you want. Oh, no. au contraire, you still have to be able to pivot. And if you are somebody that has come from that guerrilla filmmaking, that indie filmmaking background, it certainly is an advantage because, you know, these days, I don't care what the movie is, all studio budgets are, feel the downward pressure of the environment. I'll put it that way. And, you know, our movie is no exception. Every movie, I talk to filmmakers all the time. I talk to filmmakers that do huge budget movies and they still feel like they don't have enough resources because it's all relative, right, to what you're trying to accomplish. So I do say that coming from an indie filmmaking background and having to learn how to make something from nothing is advantageous at every stage of your career. It will always be advantageous for you. It also allows you to really understand everybody's job. And I always use the metaphor that I feel like a conductor of an orchestra. And a conductor has to know how every instrument works. They don't have to be an expert, but they have to understand how the instruments work. And when you work in indie film, like I've been a AD. I have been a dog wrangler. I have been a costume designer. I have done everything. And then I'm so happy to hire people who are much better at all those things than I am and kind of put all our brains together. But I think like if I have advice for filmmakers, it's understand all the parts because you cannot make a film in a vacuum. It is a collaborative art form. That is the best advice ever. I just want to jump in and just yes and her. Because I also, I have done every job on a movie set. Literally every, I don't care what it is. I've held a boom. I've done craft service, all of that. I start off as an indie filmmaker. But it also, number one, yes, you have that knowledge and that flexibility. Also, as a producer, you understand. I remember when I was doing like the first movie where I had a little bit of a budget. It was what we call a negative pickup where I had to shoot it in the studio and pay me the money back. And I had a grip country company trying to get over on me and they didn't know that I understood the difference between back then and HDMI and a tungsten light. But I did because I had come from doing everything and having to know it and understand it. It made me such a better producer because you couldn't get one over on me because I understood the minutia. I understood the line items of the budget. So that's another thing I would advise folks to do. And also just that collaboration between you two, because you said you've done AD work, which is incredibly important for like knowing when the day gets really short or something goes wrong or you have to change location. Having that understanding of where the money's going, like what shots need to be done, how the schedule is kind of planned out, having that kind of little bit of AD producer mindset. I mean, that must be a really valuable collaboration between you two. You would think, but Kat's impossible. I tell you, she just wants to shoot everything. she wants all her takes you would think she would understand and be sympathetic to the producerial side of things we're almost out of time we don't have time to get the shot yes we do i need that shot 60 takes i mean that is one thing i've learned in my old age is um you know like you you have to be responsible yes and you have to come in within budget but at the end of the day, if you don't have the scene, if you don't have the shot, it really doesn't matter that you saved, you know, $10,000 of hot costs on that day. And so it's finding that constant kind of push and pull of like, what do I need to make this film the best version of this film? And how do I be responsible and stay within the restraints of the budget? And, you know, going to the AD thing, like scheduling is an art it is not a logistical operation you know you start to know your actors and who works better in the morning and who works better in the evening and when is the light good and so i i think understanding that is something i say to filmmakers if you don't know how to really schedule you're missing a huge part of your job as a director i love that and the collaboration between your cinematographer as well so as your first aid and your crew on those recce is so important. So if you're going there at 11 o'clock and you go, oh, it's the perfect light and it's scheduled at 4pm while the light ain't perfect anymore. Sorry, recce is scouting, right? Yeah, so sorry, reconnaissance. We always have this with Americans. Recce. It's a weird word, isn't it? Recce. Yeah, it is a strange one. Yeah, recce. Which is short for reconnaissance. Because I've heard that with our European crews and stuff. I like it. You should go with recon. We're going to recon. That's much cooler, isn't it? It sounds kind of military. Well, it does ask where the word comes from. military reconnaissance. Scouting is better. Thank you. Now I understand you. Yes. After all this time now. Very British though. Very British. They get really confused. Yeah, get really confused. This is the first time you guys have worked together. First time. Yeah. Tell us about that. We met on this project. You met on this project, you and me and Tuscany. Tell us about that because obviously you're both really established and you've both done incredibly well in your career so far. What is it when you look to work with a producer or a director? Will, we'll start with you. What do you look for with directors and what did you see in CAT? Obviously, we can tell our amazing back catalog. But for you as a producer, what is it that you try and find within each project? Clarity of vision and appropriateness for that project. Everybody is different. Every director, every producer, every actor. And you have, you know, some incredible people that can do everything, right? That can do, you know, comedies, dramas. And I'm talking about in front of or behind the camera or it doesn't matter. but you also have some people that are really really good at certain things and have a specific skill set and so as a producer my job is to employ the right folks and put them in a position to win i at the cat brought up something really important which is it doesn't matter if you came in on budget if the film sucks if you don't have what you need and that is so true and as a producer you can't be so rigidly you know thinking about only the financials and don't deliver i wouldn't have the career I had if my films weren't successful, period, bottom line. And so I need to make sure that I'm working with somebody that's collaborative, that has an incredible work ethic and has a skill set to pull off whatever that particular picture is. And so for me, it's an evaluation with every project of who I want to be in partnership with, because it really is a true partnership. It's a marriage. It is something that you're going to be working with this person a lot. You're not going to always agree. You're not going to always see eye to eye. But ultimately, As long as you have the same goal and vision in mind and you're both working towards that, you can make it work. If you both have the skill set to pull it off. Yeah. And do people send you vision decks as well? Or is it just first initial meeting and then let's talk about a specific project? All the things. I tell directors, be fully prepared when you're going in. Have, you know, visuals certainly help as a visual medium. so um when you come in that first impression i i always say you have to believe who a director is when they first tell you and by that i mean i was having a conversation with a studio exec a few years ago and there was a director that they wanted and that director came in and had a different vision for the film than the studio and the producer did and it became clear in the first meeting they didn't see it right away and the director said you know what i get it i get what you guys are looking for i can deliver that let me tell you how and adjust it and then at the end of the day after they made the film they made the first film that the director walked in and said that they were going to make then that executive was telling me when a director walks in that and tells you what their vision is that's the film they're going to make whether it's fair or not to directors and so i i always live by that believe who they are when they walk in the room because one way or another they're going to end up making that version of the film yeah they're going to push it towards that way absolutely yeah so so that that initial conversation between you what was your vision of this film and and what was it maybe that you yeah that you sort of you were like this is exactly how i want to do it um that you got excited about as well i mean the great thing about working with will has been the shared vision on this and and our writer and our other producer and our cast, we all wanted to make something that, as I said, felt joyous, non-cynical, believing in love. And we also wanted to make it funny. And that's something that like, you know Will and I would be on set And as soon as it gets too earnest and leans into the sappy then we kind of come in and undercut it with a joke And that was something that we brought in a collaborative way to this film together. And, you know, this was a this was an easy one in terms of the partnership, really. We really did see eye to eye from the beginning. And that has a lot to do with the clarity of the script and, you know, the the understanding of the genre. We've both worked in this genre before. And so, you know, that was pretty easy from my perspective. Kat is very collaborative and not all directors are. I mean, it is from, she is correct. There was definitely a, the vision was shared early on. And she walked in with a resume that spoke for itself. But then, and this is also for our becoming filmmakers, once you're in, you know, battle, right? And obviously I use that term knowing where we are in the world. Friendly battle. Yeah. Filmmaking battle. But when you're in the trenches, so to speak, you have to realize that that's when you really see who someone is. Because you're up against time. You're up against light. You're up against all these various challenges. Kat is super collab. She is someone that she's got her monitors. I'm at the producer's monitors. And she'll run over there. What do you think? Do you think we got it? And some directors are just like, I don't want to hear any outside voices because I know what I want and this is all I want. But you're going to be better as a director if you're able to maintain your clarity of vision while also being collaborative with your partners. You have to be able to trust your partners. So she wouldn't come to me, my other producer, Joanna, Joanna Byer, who works for me. She wouldn't come to us if she didn't trust us. And she would come and say, what do you think? You think we have it? Is there something we should adjust? And that collaborative process made the film better. But she leads that because if she's not open to it, it's ultimately hers. It is her. It is the director's movie. It is their baby. If you're able to be collaborative, you will be a better director. I cannot stress that. But the reason that I feel able to be collaborative is also because I have a strong vision and I prepare like nobody's business. I mean, I have an ironclad shot list plan. And, you know, you can go look at my notes and all the blocking that you will see in the movie that feels organic and in the moment is planned to the T. And then what that allows me to do is to let go, find moments of magic, have input. And then, you know, when you're working with someone whose input you really value, like there's some of my favorite moments in the movie come from, you know, conversations between me and Will. Like there was a moment, there's the moment at the end where the ladies are in the tour bus. And we had had the moment with the sprinklers in the middle of the film. And then we talked about bringing them back. And Will said, if we wet her hair at the end, my audience in Decatur, Georgia is going to say, come on, what about her edges? He's not that far. He said it. I laughed out loud and said, well, that has to go in the movie. And it also like it pluses the movie. It enhances it. And so that's an example of just kind of like, you know, talking and finding moments of authenticity in the collaboration. But I think that's down to trust as well, because if you're the kind of director that doesn't listen, then it's like you're you're only ever your own point of view. And it's it's not, you know, the producer has years of experience. They see things differently. Your cinematographer sees things differently. You know, you try and take advice from every HOD. And if you don't, you can kind of get locked in a little bit. And then that maybe places you outside of that wider understanding of. Well, also, I hope that my cinematographer is better at framing shots. I hope that my production designer is better at designing a room. You know, I hope that my producer is better at understanding the world market. And that's, you know, that is the job is like take all the big brains and get the best out of them. And, you know, that is a confidence thing. And I think when people don't want to hear input, it's usually insecurity. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And just to touch on Toi, I think I'm pronouncing that correctly. You are. Your first film. Yeah, beautiful French. You're going back. Thank you. We're going just because of the four walling instant and theatrical now as opposed to streaming. And the fact that you got off your ass and did that yourself and went round and found the audience for your film. Just touch on that a little bit about how you did it just for inspiration. Yeah, that's how I started my very first film after college. I shot a small movie when I was still in undergrad and then afterwards shot a movie, could not get distribution. and I always say if you want to have what others don't, you got to be willing to do what others won't. And so we shot this independent movie for about $75,000 and we then, Hollywood could care less. There weren't any big stars in it and I certainly wasn't a big name as a filmmaker and so myself, my producer, my directing partner, we drove city to city to city. First thing we did was we snuck into the exhibitors convention at the time it was called show west it's now called cinema con some people may know that still out in vegas snuck in on a press pass had a buddy that worked for a magazine you gotta do whatever you gotta do guys right yeah buddy worked for a magazine he gave me a press pass i snuck into cinema con yeah and i met all these exhibitors and i met meaning by that i met people who worked for AMC and Regal and Carmike, you know, all these various theater chains. And I got like the numbers to like the number two or three person who would talk to me. Then I called them back because while I was there, I went to these panels and I learned that the exhibition industry was in trouble. They had just built these 24 seat multiplexes, 24 theater multiplexes, and they were losing money because they spent all this money building these theaters. And it's not unlike today. and they needed to fill these houses. So I learned the parlance and I learned that they had houses they needed to fill because they couldn't put the big movie at the time in every screen. So I called back and I said, hey, give me your smallest house on a dead weekend. I've got a theater and I promise you, I'll put an audience in, I'll put butts in seats. And I convinced 19 theaters to allow me to put my movie into their smallest house. Well, these 19 theaters were in places like, you know, Atlanta, Georgia, Charlotte, North Carolina, Jacksonville, Florida, you know, Memphis, Tennessee. Like I know every city because I drove to every single city. True story. Myself and my partner, we printed up a bunch of flyers. We drove city to city to city and we showed our movie and we only had those 19 prints and we would show them at every one. Right. And we would promote the hell out of it that weekend going, sneaking into radio stations or nightclubs or wherever we Anybody. With flyers, right? With literal flyers, flyering cars in parking lots, right? And so we would put flyers on all the cars at the nightclubs on Saturday night. And then we'd go to the churches on Sunday night and put flyers on. And they'd be the same cars, guys. This is mostly the Southeastern United States. I'll let you figure that out. But whatever. Whatever they go to. The point is that we were hustling our movies. Yeah. They've got eclectic taste. And ultimately, we made a million dollars on our own. Wow. That was the key. And then Hollywood started calling. The way we got Hollywood's attention was not any other way other than to make money without them. And then our phone rang. What have you learned since that time? Like when you were first starting out as opposed to like getting into the end of this. Yeah, getting to the end of this movie. Like what's changed in how you approach films, the industry and your mindsets? So much has changed with regards to the industry. My approach has not changed at all. I still very much am that guy that drove city to city hustling and handing out flyers, you know, except now the flyers are social media posts, you know, city to city. I fly. I'm not driving around in a Ford excursion truck, but it still takes that hustle. And I still very much believe you have to take it to the audience. You have to go out and touch people. You have to make people feel like this is for them. And you're not just putting up, you know, ads and saying, oh, I hope you like it. Like, you still have to be very active. I still have that very same approach. I mean, that's something that Will and I also share is a respect for the audience. Like, we are not making this for ourselves, although we crack ourselves up and entertain ourselves. And that's often a bellwether of like, does it work? Does it not? Yeah. But it's like thinking of the audience is so important. And it's why I like telling that story about the end, because that was putting yourself into the shoes of the audience and going, what do they want? What are they going to want to see in that moment? And, you know, you have to be thinking of that because those are the people who are going to come and enjoy themselves and escape from this world and have a moment of commune with their fellow humans. Yeah, which is so important. And I do love the end of you, Mintos. and I didn't know that that was, I could, you could, now I can't imagine it anywhere else, but under that, I'm not going to spoil it, but under the water, like it's so cool with the sprinklers. So well done. And I love that. In fact, you think outside the box like that as well. And it's inspiration for our filmmakers listening. So thank you. Yeah. Appreciate your time. Absolute pleasure. We got to go put some flyers on, some stuff. Filmmakers podcast everyone. Thanks Kat. Thanks for having us guys. Wonderful. You guys are brilliant. That was fun. Thank you guys Good to meet you man, thanks for having me Great chat What an incredible chat With Kat and Will that was Do go and watch You, Me and Tuscany This is a romantic comedy At it's very best, it's exactly what you want From this kind of movie, fun, fluffy And with a real Sprinkle of heart and food as well There's quite a lot of food in there During the interview Kat talked about making her first feature for just 150 grand in 11 days. She described directing as being a conductor of an orchestra So in our topic of the week which is just me I wanted to break down exactly why scheduling and understanding every role on a film set are the two great superpowers an indie filmmaker can possess And I mean that. It's really important to understand every role. I think we've talked about this on many podcasts in the past, how if you're a director, go and do an acting class, go hold a boom for someone, go be on other people's set as a PA, understand that process. if you can help the group department the gaff department the makeup the costume what knowledge you will gain from when you're directing or producing your own movie you really will learn so much and when you're working with millions of dollars sometimes a schedule is your logistical safety net but when you make an independent film which probably isn't a million dollars your schedule is your creative strategy if you like so i want to break down why these two elements uh dictate whether your film actually gets finished or it falls apart in the edit uh because you haven't got enough footage uh you have didn't have to have enough time because as any filmmakers we often overlook schedule as a boring sort of administrative task if i could even say it but the reality is that time equals money right and on an indie set you have neither time or money so uh here's some facts uh for you there's a cross-boarding secret because studio films can afford to shoot chronologically indie films cannot high-end scheduling relies on cross-boarding which means shooting out a location entirely before moving on so if you're shooting the climax of your movie on day one and that is where another part of the scene is of your movie you need to shoot all that on day one because it's a huge set piece it might be a waterfall or it might be a location you can only get one so it means you might have to shoot the climax of a movie on day one and then the opening of your scene on day two for instance if you don't schedule this properly you bleed your budget on company moves it's something lucinda talks to me all the time about i'm like well in that location because this will work here. I'll be sitting down my first AD, often Joe Stringer, and he will say, yeah, well, we can, but then we've got to travel from here to there and we can probably fit it in. Lucinda will go, no, it's a company move. It's a nightmare, logistical nightmare. Where are we going to put the toilets on that second day? We're going to have to move all that. We're going to have to do this. Company moves can often take two to four hours of shooting time. It's gone. That's a quarter of your day. Gone. So you've really got to think about company moves. so crossboarding is often way better for you which means like i say you shoot in one location day one all the things you need in that location which can be a bit of a nightmare if you're working kids or you're working with first-time actors who have not done that before and suddenly they're jumping from scenes and emotions which is really tough hence why you need to rehearse if you can do rehearsal the cheapest often time or rewrite scenes to make it fit as well very important and a great schedule has built in elasticity of course and cat talked about the run and gun world so if it starts raining or they generate blows a good director and first ad don't panic they look at the schedule and producer and immediately we pull forward an interior scene you know it's raining we can't shoot it right how are we going to do this right we've got the actor there we can shoot this it's not particularly lit yet right how can we do it it's called pivoting and it's so important on an indie film that you do this and know that this will happen especially if you're shooting in the uk or most of europe it is going to rain it's not going to be sunny and beautiful all the time though we got so lucky on sessions when we're shooting that out in ipswich honestly i've never been blessed so much on a film as we had on sessions me and andy planned for certain shots where the sun will just be dipping down the magic arrow for like or the first thing in the morning where the sun's coming up for these amazing scenes that were so emotional. And it happened exactly as we planned it. But that takes planning. But it could have rained on both those days and we'd have to shoot it inside or we couldn't have shot the ending outside. We'd have had to shot in the rain. How do you do that when it's raining and everyone's really up against it? You don't want to do it. But if you can shoot inside, you have to pivot and you have to plan for that. And a good first, good director, good producer will have all these in the back of their mind. Hopefully your first is on top of this because when you're directing, you've got so much going on in your head that you can't possibly think about everything um but the idea is don't panic right don't panic when this happens because otherwise if you do it can bankrupt you know the film it can suddenly fall apart you haven't got the footage you haven't got what you need you still keep keep going well well we'll wait for the rain to stop no no shoot something else especially if you know it's going to rain for the rest of the day or the location falls apart or you haven't got this prop you need you have to pivot uh this is a great quote i found um a schedule is not just a list of what we are shooting it is the financial translation of the script i don't know where it came from but i think it's great it's classic producing adage you cannot direct effectively effectively if you don't understand the financial reality of the ticking clock by the way is it schedule or schedule uh someone will tell me please write in the comments below uh i think it's i think it's schedule uh anyway let's talk about the director as a conductor here and cat uh coiro nailed it director is the conductor of an orchestra you don't need to know how to play the cello better than your cellist but you absolutely must know what the cello is supposed to sound like and how it fits into the symphony so therefore like i said before you must learn every role the language of your department if you don't understand what a gaffer or a grip actually does you can't communicate with them correctly if you ask your dp you know um for a moody high contrast look you need to understand that setting up negative fill or flagging off um lights it takes time and understanding that physical labor it'll take on your crew stops you from setting unrealistic expectations and we i suppose we have to be brutally honest as we are as much as we can on this podcast um when you're young or first time director some seasoned crew members might try and walk all over you especially if they don't think you're controlling this or if they think they can do it better than you and often in most cases they do know way more than you so you do have to listen to them but if they tell you we can't get that shot in 20 minutes but you've worked as a sparker or camera assistant in the past you know whether they're telling the truth or they're just trying to rap early and that's your bullshit detector and you'll know that with the feeling you get from them respect breeds hustle right the number one reason indie crews will work 12 hour days for minimal pay is because they respect the vision respect your vision and your leadership and when a director knows how heavy a sandbag is or understands laying track will take that amount of time and how difficult it is to get it absolutely smooth and perfect so there's no bumps or why the sound mixer needs 60 seconds for room tone and the crew feels seen they understand how unless I take that you're not stood there going, why is this taking so long? And they will bleed for a director, producer, first AD who respects their craft. This quote is from Orson Welles, which I really like. He says, a writer needs a pen, an artist needs a brush, but a filmmaker needs an army. And you, dear listener, cannot lead an army if you do not understand what the soldiers in the trenches are actually doing. So, your homework for this week. Do you want homework? I just said give you homework why not? here's your homework if you're a director get on a set as a runner go shadow a production designer talk to the sound mixer get in that costume department spend a day with the makeup department learn what they do and as you then sit down to plan your next short your next feature treat your schedule or schedule with the exact same reverence you treat your script it is the blueprint that will keep your film alive, it will keep it on the rails and keep your dream alive. When you get to the edit, you've got those shots you needed, you've got the continuity you needed, you've got the shots that you wanted that were important and you weren't just rushing it last minute. Okay, that'll do. It's a single on that person, a single on that person. Right, let's move on. Plan it. Think about it. It's your chance to show what you can do. Very important. So a huge thank you to Will Packer and cat call your own foot an amazing chat that was great i really enjoyed that there was so much i could have chatted for so much longer with them uh thank you for listening thank you for downloading as always and supporting the filmmakers podcast it means a lot it does so keep hustling keep scheduling go make your movie and if you're lucky enough to rise up and do well it is your duty to send the schedule back down and the elevator as well and teach those below you and help those as well along the way right we'll see you next week when we have ian to a son on oh this was a great chat his film is so good undertone the sound design the shot design of this movie which is pretty much all set in one house with pretty much just two people in it and one of them's pretty much dead on a bed it is excellent i love this movie it had so much going for it uh And so much to say. And I had a brilliant chat with Ian about how he created that, how he did it on a very low budget in his parents' house, who had died in that house as well. We talk about that. And also how he got the job on the next, not Blair Witch, Paranormal Activity movie. He's directing that as his next movie. A24 picked up this undertone. It's brilliant. You're going to love it. That's next week for you. Until then, though, take care. Go make your films. Make it happen. And we will see you on the other side. Take care. Bye.