Ep 1268 | Childhood Trauma, Fatherhood Regrets & the Unseen Burden Men Bear in Silence

I am unashamed. What about you? So welcome back to Unashamed. We're super excited today. We've got a guest coming on. Jace, you're probably the only one that knows him. I mean, I know of him, but I don't know him. Well, a series of events happen now, and we met this guy years ago. And it's quite the story that I'll tell. But I'm excited about it. And the project that he's involved with, you're going to be excited about. All right. So without further ado, let's bring on our guest. It looks like he's floating out in the nether regions of the world. Bart Millard, welcome to the Unashamed podcast. Thanks for having me. Finally, I've been watching for a while. So I was pretty excited when this came through. Of course, I'm in an undisclosed location. It looks like you're in the witness protection program. What are you running from, Bart? Send help. For those of you that don't know Bart, I guess three people maybe in Unashamed Nation. Of course, he's the front man for Mercy Me. And we've been loving your music for a long, long time, you guys in the band. And now you have a new book and a new movie out all in the same month, which is pretty impressive. Yeah, it's like somebody smarter than me timed all this stuff. But yeah, we've got the movie coming out, I Can Only Imagine Two, and the book, which is called Even If, which to make things even confusing, that's what the movie is about. It's a story around the song Even If. And when the first movie came about, I'd never been a part of a movie. And they're trying to cram 25 years of your life in two hours. So some things, the accuracies aren't always there. They're trying to make it a timeline that's feasible. And I was the guy where they're going, well, that's not right. That's not how it, you know. And so somebody said to write a book so he could explain, like, I could go in more detail of what's happening. And it was therapeutic. I loved the process so much. So that's what we did again for this one. So even if it's kind of just digging a little deeper than what the story is being told in the movie. What they do to make you feel better about that is they say some scenes were enhanced for drama purposes. That's why it says inspired by a true story. It would be really boring if it was my actual story like that Wyatt Earp from Kevin Costner did. I think that was a little too long. I think that was second by second his whole life. Unfortunately, it came out the same year as Tombstone. Oh, yeah. Tombstone, that was one of my favorite movies. Heck, yeah. It's like me putting out a superhero movie when Marvel's blowing up. It's not a good idea. A duck commander in our interview process, when I would interview people to come build duck calls, because they're like, oh, we want to be a duck man. So they had these hopes and dreams. And the interview questions, I would start off, I said, have you ever seen the movie Outlaw Josie Wales? If they said no, I would literally say, you may go. Come back when you've seen it. Because I thought, this is what we talk about. And my second question is, have you seen Tombstone? You know, if they got one of those wrong, they left. Because I was like, you're never going to understand what we talk about in this dugout room. Because it's basically relationships in a room where you're talking all day. I'm just curious. Is it Huckleberry or Huckleberry? We had that same debate for a month. I had some. We did, too, on a radio interview, and somebody sent me this whole thing about that there's a thing called a hucklebear. I can't remember what it was. I don't even know if it's true. No, we actually broke down the tape and played it in slow motion. And we deemed that it's hucklebear. Hucklebear? Yeah, hucklebear. Hucklebear. Which was some slogan for something else that went down another rabbit hole that we won't go down to. But I still just said, well, it's going to be Huckleberry because that sounds better. Yeah. That's what I thought. Yeah. Odd facts. So that's why Duck Commander, they were supposed to be building duck calls, Bart, when they were spending weeks breaking down tape of the tombstone. That was true in the show. There was more nonsense going on than actual work. That was based on a true story. Well, I did a quick little search here on ChatGPT. That's my favorite friend. That person is not real. It's a compilation of a bunch of nonsensical humor. It's the entire world's opinion. The collective opinion of the world is it's Huckleberry, not Hucklebearer. Huckleberry. Huckleberry. No, we disagree. Hucklebear or Huckleberry is better than Hucklebearer, and it being some technical term for whatever. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, I don't agree. So we got a lot of questions for you, but Jace has already informed us that he has to have a disclaimer. So, Jace, take it away. This has been an awakening. I'm always nervous when friends, acquaintances, people I respect, when they're like, hey, you want to check out our movie and promote it? Because deep down, Bart, you know what I'm thinking? Oh, I hope this isn't bad. Oh, who doesn't? And so I watched it, and it's fantastic. But during the disclaimer is this, because I told my cohorts, Al and Zach, I was like, you're not going to believe the story that I'm going to tell. Because way back in 2014, something happened. And my wife filled me in on this. I knew what happened. You've probably forgotten, too, because you've been out there making music, driving buses and doing movies. But I think you were struggling at that time. Something was wrong with your voice. And maybe you can clarify that. And we were at the K-Love Awards and struck up a conversation with you. And since you were in the music department, and that's my wife represents all music. Right. I really wasn't paying attention. But y'all were talking about something. And my son was going through it. He was 19 years old. And he decided he was going to go to Nashville and make it big. And you, my wife, was very stressed out about that. And you said, well, if there's anything I can ever do to help, let me know. And she did. She called you. And we helped. Yeah, and you helped. He moved into my manager's basement. Yeah. So I knew they were going to be shocked because I was like, we're not just interviewing Mercy Me. This guy housed my teenager when he was going through a rough, rough time. Man, right then, the second he got there, we threw him on our bus and said, come on, let's go. And so we had a show in Louisville at their old football stadium, which is like that old Astrodome-type turf. and it was like 110 degrees where like your feet were burning standing on this turf and there was no shade and poor guy was just sitting there sweating i kept going you sure you want to do this it was like the worst example to give him of like road life which might have been a good thing but it was it was a rough day great missy was filling me in on the details and i'm like now look here's the disclaimer my wife told me all these details and then as i'm walking out of the door to come have this interview. She said, you can't bring any of that up. Why? That's telling you to bring it up. Well, because that's legalism. You tell them don't step on the lawn, they're going to step on the lawn. Here's what happened. And here's what I think she doesn't understand. Cause I said, Oh, I'm bringing this up because my son lived with the, uh, you know, When you see the movie, you'll be familiar with Brickle. And he's like the humor element of the show. But I just want to tell you right now, he's not funny. I met him. There's nothing funny about him. He's a big, scary man. Yeah. But you laugh at him. Yeah. And I said, babe, they've broken down that wall. Because my wife got panning. I want to share and get your perspective on this. Because she got panicked because it's like she's moving him in with some guy named Brickle. I have to go check out where my son is living. So she goes to Brickle's house. And the first question, she looks around. And my wife is a neat and order kind of person. As an adventurer, she decided to marry me because I'm the officer. But she asked my son, she said, oh did they just move in here and reed said no they've been living here for years that was her perspective when she walked in she thought oh they must have just moved in yeah and uh she starts telling me stories about this house and she's like they actually have a slide from the third story that you can ride into the living room and she said i wrote it yeah it's a it was quite the amusement park back then when the kids were little it was like whatever they didn't get as a kid they were going to give theirs like the whole basement where he was living was like they were the basement was like they that was the kids like they're just graffiti on the walls like that's what she said that she's like yeah just that's like do whatever here yeah yeah it was it's like it started as chalk and then it became permanent paint and then it was like gang sign's got a handrail. So you guys know I got five kids, which means it costs a fortune to get health insurance for all seven of us. So when Christian Healthcare Ministries came along, I was like, sign me up because for our family switching to CHM, it wasn't just about saving money, although it did come in about half the cost, which is absolutely amazing. But it also aligns with what we believe and it feels more like a community than a bureaucracy. So here's how it works. We submit our medical bills every month. And then what happens is believers from all over the country, they pitch in to help cover our costs. And they also lift your family up in prayer. And so we love this because one, it helps us pay for our medical bills. But two, we have way more flexibility because I can go to any doctor that I trust without having to rely on some middleman. And you think, well, is this like a real thing? It's a real deal. I'm going to tell you right now, CHM members have already shared over $12 billion in medical bills together. So you know this is for real. This is solid. Honestly, I should have done this years ago so that I could stop feeding money into a broken system. You know, Zach, health cost sharing was a big blessing for Lisa and I last year. We went through her breast cancer journey. Just having people walk alongside us, not just on the financial side, but also for the spiritual side, was a huge blessing for us. And that's why CHM is clearly a better choice for our family, too. I mean, I looked on the exchange. I mean, when we were trying to get insurance, I was like, whoa, this is I'm 40 grand in the hole before I even get access to coverage. Not going to do that. So here's my advice. Ditch your traditional health insurance and join CHM today by visiting chministries.org slash unashamed. That's chministries.org slash unashamed chministries.org slash unashamed. well when jay when jace was telling us about this uh earlier before you came on bar i he i said well i was curious because trace atkins you know playing the manager in the movie it was very compelling to me because and mainly because he reminded me of my dad like he would just tell you whatever it was so bluntly and straightforward yeah it's like when he told the guy the tim uh that was doing the opening act for you when he said, your set sucks. And I was just like, that reminded me so much of my dad, just to tell you the truth. And so I was curious. I said, Jace, was he really like that? And so then Jace started telling me this whole story. I had no idea that there was a connection. That was the G-rated version of what he told Tim when it was that bad. But that did go down. What's funny is you would think Brickle, if you saw Brickle, they got traced. They look like brothers, like Brickle's 6'5". And I mean, like Brickle's just the – he's Trace on full feed, basically. Yeah, yeah. But the first movie when – because Andy – the Irwin brothers had used Trace for another movie. We filmed in Oklahoma and they picked up Trace at the airport and they were walking to baggage claim And he was like why did y get me to play this Brickle guy And right then Brickle was standing at baggage claim with his back to him in the luggage and he went crap never mind He did – Brickle's not as much – he's not – I think Trace is a little more of a Yoda in the movie than Brickle. Brickle's very – like he has no tact. Like he will say it how it is. Yeah, yeah. And he did try to write a book, and we made fun of him. And it was the band's request that through the whole movie, we don't want to let up. We want to make fun of that book the whole time. And Brickle thinks it's hilarious. He loves that kind of stuff. So it's pretty great. I told him, I said, they made fun of him. He sold like 111 copies of this book. And they put that out there. And I said, you know what's weird? Is this will probably be the catalyst that sells that book. Oh, yeah. Oh, it's like it's so bad. It's good. And the book's fine. It's something that Belmont should be reading or whatever. But it's just about the music business. But there's a scene where we're at the merch table and he has a little round table that he's sitting there like with a stack of books trying to sell them. And we really did that. Like he kept pushing this book. So we had our merch guy just set up a little table and set us up because, hey, you need to go sign. People want to buy it. And he was like, oh, really? And he went out there and nobody bought any books for about an hour. He just said at this tiny table. And waited to sell stuff. Yeah, he's a good sport, man. I will say that there's a quote where Trace or Brickle in the movie reads a part of the book. And it's not in the actual book. So Brickle had the books reprinted to have that quote put in. He goes, that's pretty good. And I was like, you're into this movie thing a little too much, man. He is a manager, so he knows a few things. No, but he wrote history. Now, I mean, I'm glad we could have fun with that. But, you know, what really just floored me is the first time I watched, I can only imagine, well, I just wasn't ready to go there. Our lives were so similar in that we had a dad that was rough. And so it brought back all these memories. Well, I was just devastated. I was about 10, 15 minutes in the movie, and it was actually a premiere somewhere that we went. Yeah. And Missy was like, what is wrong with you? Because I was getting upset. I was like, we're going to a place that I had tucked away. I've tried to bury for most of my life. Yeah, and she brought up this morning, because look, I'm not a crier, because my dad had that brickled side of him, which I really think was useful for my son in that moment, but that you just didn't cry. And he had a mantra, who's a man? And so you were never emotional. And my dad was the hardest guy that you could ever see. Now, the Lord, through the years, softened him up in the last five years of his life. Oh, he was just a big crybaby, you know, but he was always embarrassed about it. And so we kind of got that passed down. I mean, we just weren't a hugging family. We weren't, you know, I love you family. I mean, it just wasn't that just wasn't there. Even after they came to Christ, it was just a real hard no. And so I resonated with the first one with that. And then now this new movie's come out. And, well, you know, our story was wrapped in there in a weird way because our son, when he was 19, that was the worst year of his life, which, I mean, it was just stress. And I thought I was looking at all the dates. I was like, well, he's fixed to go through this with his son, which is kind of the same thing we did on the first movie with our dad. And I thought, oh, no, I better get some tissue out, which it was. It made me cry a lot during this second movie. And I think what y'all zeroed in on is this relationship aspect of God and how that's passed on to us and all our messes and how he's with us in these moments. I'm not going to lie. Like with the first movie and even this movie, I don't know how many times I have referenced Duck Dynasty as far as like being able to show what I call a beautiful mess and this thing that can be train wrecked at time. I have referenced the idea of praying at the end of each episode so many times of like, man, it's a wreck at times. It's ugly at times. It's messy. But they're still in it together. And I mean, when both movies were pitched, that was a reference we kept making. And yeah, there's something – I mean, we're all storytellers, and there's something to be said when people think that whether we're on stage or you guys are a TV show or whatever, It's like, man, life doesn't pick and choose. It gets messy for all of us. And unfortunately, the one thing that we all have in common is we know what hurt and what pain can be and what it's like. And yeah, it's like my grandmother always said, don't let your hurt go in vain. And so whether it's telling a story on stage or writing a song or making a movie, it's – I wish I could say I was a super Christian that was doing it for them. But it's more of a selfish motivation that the second I get it out there, I realize I'm not alone. And isolation is the worst thing possible. And I think a lot of men deal with that. And when things get hard, we internalize and it eats us from the inside out. And so I may not be willing to do it a lot, but I keep trying to get this stuff out because I need to confess this stuff and get it out as well. One of the things, Bart, that touches me about it is, you know, you think about a testimony of a life and that's a season and a book that keeps being written. And so I thought about that with your first film. And I was I asked you this was one harder than the was looking back when you were younger and those things that shaped you harder than this time looking at you more as an adult, as a husband, as a dad. And that was this a harder story to tell or is it the same or just a new story? No, the first one was 100 percent harder. You know, kind of like what Jason said, like I spent all of my life trying to bury all of that, even though my dad came to know Jesus and was my best friend by the time he passed away. it's just not something you want to go through. And also I didn't know what to expect. No one can prepare you for it. And I'm thinking, well, it's like, you know, Dennis Quaid, these guys are acting. It's not going to, it's going to feel different. And the first time I went on set, we filmed Dennis last of the whole shoot. We were still scrambling to get who was going to play my dad. And he came in for a couple of weeks at the end of the filming. And so I flew out to Oklahoma where we were filming to be on set. And I got there late and I didn't have a chance to meet him. But the first scene was when he's in the hospital room and they tell him he has cancer. And I didn't get to see him. So he walks in with my dad's work shirt on with Millard across the chest. And they're telling this stuff. And, man, I had to leave. I was like, I just didn't know it was going to be a gut punch like that. And we wanted it to be like the abuse scenes and everything to be as accurate as I can remember. Because if you show that, then the redemption story is that much more powerful. well they did a good job because i was sick to my stomach most of that movie watching and i couldn't watch it and um and i didn't have many people left in my life to you know to remember and recollect is this is how i remember it happening is this how it was kind of on my own this time around uh one is my my son and iron and you know we're best friends in a super healthy relationship so there probably wouldn't be a movie if that wasn't the case but to be able to walk through it with him and my wife and my kids that are old enough to understand. And even though they're tough times to remember, it was really enjoyable to recollect that together. It was very therapeutic. And so it was a, I don't want to say the first experience wasn't enjoyable. It was hard. And this one was tough, but it was a whole different vibe. Like Sam, both of us are like, we have no problems talking about that because we know we're through it now. And so it was a lot easier process. So, Jase, tell me, what's the most favorite thing you like about your little poochies, your little dogs? I have one who has really good manners and terrible instincts, but then the other has terrible manners and good instincts. So they pair well together. Yeah. Two out of my three dogs have good manners. One, not so much. But they all are instinctive when it comes time for rough greens because they get super excited when it's time to eat. And they know rough greens is part of it. They get a little older and a little slower. Your dogs do. They get a little pickier. Sometimes the stomachs don't always behave. And the reason why our good friend, Dr. Dennis Black, who created rough greens, shows us that part of the problem is with traditional dog food. It's missing probiotics, it's missing enzymes, omega oils, and all the live vitamins and minerals that your dog needs to digest and absorb food. That's why I created Rough Greens. It's America's number one dog supplement. You sprinkle it right on their food. It's packed with all the live nutrients that they need. Plus, it's all natural, made right here in the good old U.S. of A. Rough Greens is helping dogs feel younger, more energetic, and healthier than they have in years. and your dog could be one of them. My dogs love Rough Greens. I've noticed the difference. They have healthier coats, shinier, and they're just more energetic. Get a free Jump Start trial bag for your dog. You just cover the shipping. Go to roughgreens.com and use the discount code UNASHAMED. Rough Greens. We make any dog food better. Well, and y'all doing the movie, and I believe it was led by God, after we watched the first movie, on the way home, I shared a story at, you know, at my dad's worst when I was a kid that I'd never shared to, you know, another human. And, you know, I told her about it. Of course, you know, we were both kind of in tears. And, and of course she was just like, I mean, it's taken you, I mean, we've been married for years, you know, to, to get that out. But, you know, and, and it's like, once it got out, I was like, well, there it is. And because my story was similar, you know, we were bumpy. at first, he came to Christ and it bothered people that I wouldn't call him dad. And I was like, well, in my mind, that didn't work. So Brothers in Christ was kind of where we started our relationship. But he eventually became my best friend as the years went by because we just shared, you know, the duck blinds and all. But I thought, man, that's what the first movie really, it was therapeutic for me. And, uh, and this also just dealing with teenagers. I mean, it, no matter how you try to get it right, we tend to go to our default setting, you know, from our, from our parents. And so I've shared this before on the podcast, but the greatest thing I ever did with my oldest son and, and I didn't do this until he was in his twenties, as I drove up to Nashville and just to apologize for the mistakes I had made on where I was influenced from my own childhood. And with no caveats, like there was nothing going on. I just said, look, it hit me that I need to say this. I made a lot of mistakes and you're going to have to find your way and find your way with the Lord, despite some of the mistakes I made. And I didn't realize the power in that. To me, it was kind of selfishly for my own conscience. But for him, boy, he just that was a that was a moment for him. He was like, OK, because what is he going to do with all that bitterness and anger about it? I'm just kind of falling on the sword here, which was not natural for him. That's one of the hardest things to do there. Right. When you when it comes to your kids, it's like I don't know. There's a different kind of shame when you get issues with them that you just it's hard to address. It's hard. It's hard to get in there. But, you know, Bart, I love it that you guys kind of just went out there. Here's what's going on. It's it is a form of like confession. even the way you did it in the movie, to share your testimony, to share your story. And I was I was thinking about that passage in Revelation, I think, 12. It says that the way we overcome the accuser is by the word of our testimony and the blood of the lambs. That testimony, that story, these stories, they matter because because they they they disarm the enemy with the pointing of the accusation. So I love the way you describe that with you and Sam both are like, yeah, we'll tell our story. you know we're through it now we'll tell we'll tell that story that's the story of victory and i think other people who will watch this that are dealing if you got teenage kids because i got five kids and and i guess four of them now are or two of them are grown two of them are teenagers but you going to go through issues if you a parent with your kids and you have to work through stuff so this will be a catalyst for a lot of people They going to see your story be inspired by that I hope so I mean yeah I mean it it I had people in my life you know when I first got married became a parent They were similar. Like, you know, the advice was like, hey, you're going to mess up a lot. Your kids are going to pay for therapy at some point, but you need to keep being present, like showing up. I will say that, you know, and I don't know if you can relate, but my growing up with an abusive dad for me, the worst thing was not when he'd lay his hand on me or the worst thing was when he would completely ignore me. You know, there was a time when I got in so much trouble and I thought he's going to kill me. And I came home and he was like, you know what? I'm done. Do whatever you want. And he stuck to that for two years. like yeah like i was probably seventh eighth grade sleeping at my friend's house never had to call in i would be like hey can i go i told you i didn't care and for about two years that was the worst time of my life i'd rather take a swing at me then yeah didn't act like i didn't even exist and then you know through therapy they talk about like you know for a kid who can't process this stuff you mean almost treat it like a pet like even if you you know if my dad was hitting me to me, that was still me having his attention. And we can't process that when you're a kid. It's like, I'm the only thing that matters in the room, even though I know it sounds crazy as an adult to say that. And I remember hearing it going, are you sure? Because we can't, being ignored is bad and just his attention in any way. And then that's when you start telling yourself, well, then I must have done something wrong. That's you trying to justify that he wouldn't normally do that because you appreciate that you still want the attention. It's, yeah, man, like about eight years before the first movie came out is when a lady named Cindy Bond, who's a producer on both, she approached me and wanted to make this first movie. And I thought, she goes, I'm looking for a popular Christian song that maybe has a story that's worth making a movie. And she goes, I've been asking around and I've heard, I can only imagine and shout to the Lord back then. And I guess they didn't have a story because I was second. And so she came to us and she heard the story and she goes, I want to make this movie. We thought she was crazy and said, yeah, knock yourself out. And about twice a year, she'd go, I'm still trying. We're like, still crazy. Like, all right. We never thought it would happen. But at that same time, eight years before, my wife and I, totally unrelated, had started going to grief counseling because her brother was killed in a car wreck the same year that Sam was diagnosed with diabetes. And I remember right then was the first time. I wouldn't go. I was like, you know, Shannon started going. I wasn't, not that I was against it, but she just, she didn't think I'd want to. And after a few sessions, she's like, hey, she wants you to come in just to show you how much progress my wife has had. And I was like, okay, cool. So I go in, I sit down and Shannon's like, I'm going to go to the restroom real quick. And she leaves. And the first thing the lady says is like, let's talk about your childhood. And I was like, oh, I've been ambushed. My wife never came back. And I was like, heck no. I immediately didn't want to go there, but then went back once a week for seven years. Between that of unpacking and realizing how much me being a dad and a husband or pretty much life is impacted by those early years of my life to her showing me what grace and what my identity in Christ truly is, it was like discovering fire. It changed everything. And that was eight years before. And so right when the movie came out, just unrelated, I was getting to a healthy place to where if I didn't do that, that movie would never be made. And what's weird is like this sequel, all that stuff about sitting in the flower chair and the depression, that was what was going on. Like that time frame was right. The making of the first movie obviously didn't say that, but all that depression was, well, it was from the time Sam was two until he was about 15. I was deeply depressed that long, got up to like 370 pounds and just, you know, I would say yes to every show because that was a distraction or I would just be home and not present in the same room. And it's weird to watch the second movie because I'm like, that was happening when I was going through therapy. And like in the other movie is starting to be made. It's just it's a weird mess with your head kind of moment. Yeah. I can't believe you were three hundred and seventy pounds. Or was that just a number you were throwing out there? No, I was three seven, my biggest. And my dad died at forty eight, had pancreatic cancer. And so when I turned 40, I was I was I was hitting it pretty good. And my doctor who was he this dude, well, he just passed away, but he delivered me. He was there. My dad. I mean, he's been around forever. And he called and said, hey, you're not dying at 48. And so he I remember I've just turned 40 and he goes, you've got every red flag in the book. And he said, we're going to start with like he said, I want you to try weight loss surgery. And one of those things when you do that, it's usually like you've got a few months of like counseling. They want you to go through all this therapy to get ready for it. He called me on Thursday. I was in surgery on Tuesday. Like it was less than a week. And I was like, are we sure about this? And he was like, trust me. And it changed my life, man. It got me on a different path. And then just not realizing that spiritually and emotionally I was getting fixed as well, like going to counseling, all that kind of stuff. But yeah, there's so many things with my dad. I'm like Lieutenant Dan from Forrest Gump. I just believe that I'm going to be whatever that dude was, and I have no way of changing it for so long. But I'm free of that, thank goodness. So I had a question about Sam. How does he feel about the movie, and how old is he now? He's 24. I just want to make a disclaimer for anybody watching. I have this giant screen, and I'm told to look at the camera. But when you guys start talking, how do I not look at you? It's so compelling. So when it looks like I'm bored doing this, I'm looking at it. Anyway, Sam is 24, and he's loved it. It's interesting because when they decide they're going to make the movie, they'll separate all of us in interviews for like six, seven hours. My wife, myself, Tim Timmons, his wife, Sam. And so the whole idea of the movie was my perspective of how hard it is to be a dad. Well, when they interviewed Sam, I got to watch the video footage early on, and 99% of it I've never heard. I never heard his side of the story. I just thought it was hard for me. And the struggle he had growing up was, man, I see my dad being dad with all the other siblings, but he's just a doctor with me. Don't eat that. Take this shot. Don't do this. And he's like, sometimes I just want him to be my friend. And I knew I felt that, just never thought that, you know, if he ever felt it. But I knew our relationship was strained, but I put the blame all on me and didn't realize that he was kind of pushing away as much as I was staying away. Because I just felt like all I did was bring pain to him if I'm in the same room, which I did. Sam's had over 60,000 shots in his lifetime. Wow. And that's with 10 years of technology. It doesn't need shots anymore. Like, you know, it does it for him. And there's a moment in the movie to where I've never, you know, sometimes the pendulum swings the other way to where my dad was so hard on me that I'm very bad at disciplining my kids. Like my wife's like, come on, man, just step in there. I'm like, man, because this is a weird thought that what if I just lose it? I just don't want to be anything like that. So I've never lifted a finger on them. But the first time I gave Sam a shot and he's crying saying, Dad, why are you hurting me? Like I literally could hear me saying the same stinking thing. And it it jacked my head up because I'm like, I'm trying to do everything different. And my kids still crying because I'm the source of pain and I'm just trying to keep them alive. And that's when talking about this is when they thought, hey, this may be a story that needs to be told. And yeah, but that was I learned a lot when I'd heard Sam's interviews. And he's he's he's loving the process. And he'll be the first one to say, because we're on the other side. He's like, man, if this helps somebody else. And he's like, let's do it. And yeah, so he's and they they remember the first one, like the premieres and stuff like I'm sure like your kids remember parts of the show and the cool parts and stuff. And so they're kind of into that and the premieres coming up and, you know, yeah. So they're into it. But Sam's been really great. And he signed a record deal since and he's he's opening it for us on tour. We go out in March. And so he's living his best life right now. well i think it's good because the difference in a movie that has uh jesus implications and and is spiritual because you have all these hollywood movies these coming of age stories and relationships and but for for us and uh for what you did i mean you're just burying your innermost failures, struggles, which is so uncommon because everybody kind of when they want to be on TV, they're like, well, let me give the best version of myself. And that's really appealing. I think that's why it's so special and inspiring because a lot has to be said there. You're just laying it out on the table. This is what happened. I know that's not easy, but it's awesome in the Lord. I wanted to say a couple of things. there's one little subtle there's a because you can see what you're doing I mean you wrote a song and then you're like here's a movie about how this song came to be well I'd heard this song before and I liked it but when I listened to it again after the movie oh you know it does something to you I actually before you came on I said let's prepare ourselves for what's fixed to happen, and I played that song. And if you just heard it and didn't know the story, you're just like, oh, that's pretty good. So one little subtle part of it, what I did and what I recommend for people after they watch this movie, because this is what I did. I watched the movie, it got all dried up, and I read Daniel chapter 3. Because that, I thought, yeah, they probably took a version of that. But no, it's exactly where that song came from is a statement in Daniel 3, you know, when the three guys are thrown in the fiery furnace and they're like, well, even if, you know, God doesn't allow this to happen, we're not following you. We're not going to bow. Yeah, we're not bowing. I mean, it is so profound, which I've read that story a hundred times. But after the movie, when I read it, I was ready to go run through a wall. And so I would recommend that. But I wanted to bring something else up because we do, our lives just kind of mirror each other, even though, you know, you would have never, never think that. You're better looking. I got it. Yeah, you get it. Yeah, right. We've been studying first, John, because, you know, my daughter, she was born with craniofacial issues, and she's had multiple surgeries. And we had that same conversation when she was, I don't know, five or six. It was like, why are you doing this? And it was always the handoff was the most difficult thing. Because I'm like, she's looking at me like, why are you handing me off to go get butchered, basically, and have all this suffering? Why are you leaving me? And I'm just like, I don't have an answer for this. Yeah. I mean, just in the moment, I did not have an answer. But somewhere in that, I thought about, this is what God did for us with his son. And so we've been studying 1 John. I wanted to read this because I really believe a lot of people say this is a poem, the way it's written in 1 John 2. But it just so reflects. I just thought about it the whole time I was watching this movie. And nobody really talks about this or preaches this sermon, but it was right after he had said, you know, this life appeared, Jesus, we were with him. And he has allowed us to have fellowship with him, with the Father and with the Son. We're like in him in an intimate way. We're fellowshipping in this love. And, you know, then he kind of goes through the sin problem. But then he launches into this song in 1 John 2 and verse 12. And I wanted to read it because it says, I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name. And I just thought about kids and, you know, when they start, they go through puberty and all of a sudden things change. But there's just there's something he wanted to sing about that. Look, you've been forgiven. There's a there's a way here. out. I write to you, fathers, because you have known Him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father. I write to you fathers because you have known Him who is from the beginning I write to you young men because you are strong and the word of God lives in you and you have overcome the evil one And I mean, you sense his awareness of what you made that movie about in a way that he's bursting out into song and the trouble of life. And then he launches into the most famous passage in 1 John, which is don't love the world or anything in it. The love of the Father is not in him for everything in the world. The cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes, the boasting what he has and does does not come from the Father, but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God will live forever. And it just really appealed to me and spoke to me. I'm like, it's right here. you just live it and then contemplate on the very word of God. And all of a sudden, these answers just appear right in front of your face. So I just want to get your thoughts on that, man. Yeah, it's it's. Yeah, the whole process has been, you know, we anything we can. I mean, I was called to ministry and to share the gospel years and years ago. And somewhere along the way, I just was reminded that evangelism, the definition is just to share the things that God's already doing and already done. And whether it's preaching or making music or making movies, and it's just this idea, like, man, trying to show how flawed we are and the mess that we are and how we serve a perfect God. and just any way that we can kind of point people to him. We're just in a kind of uncharted time. I know we've already had one movie, but this is just so, you know, not what we're used to doing. And I wanted to say something to you earlier when you were talking about your daughter and stuff. The thing that the feedback we've gotten so much with this movie is when we pitched the movie to Lionsgate, I actually said these words. I said, look, like type one diabetes on the big screen doesn't have like the sex appeal of cancer or something. Just, you know, it's not it's underwhelming to a lot of people because your kid's still here. At least they're somewhat healthy. It could be worse. And the amount of people that I've seen that have come to me and say what this voice in my head will tell me that like we had a lady that's child with MS and kids, diabetics. And we had a mom and her daughter, her son had a cleft palate and they were at the movie and she was talking about she was like, I wouldn't change a thing for the world. And she goes, but this voice in my head tells me it could be worse. So don't speak up. Don't complain. And all of a sudden they're isolated. And she goes, I just I want I long for a moment like where I'm slipping off into my closet and screaming, saying this this genuinely stinks, God. But you still remain good. And, you know, and it's it's like and, you know, it's so many stories of a lady with a daughter with Down syndrome. This daughter, she's a grown woman or daughter's an adult, just embracing, holding her by the waist. And she's like, I had to mourn that she wouldn't marry all these things I dream for my daughter. I know that she'll live with me until one of us go to see Jesus. She goes, I wouldn't have any other way, but it's so stinking hard. And she goes, and it's like, if I can't find a way to feel seen or heard, it's hard to be a great mom for her. And so I underestimated that part of it to hear people come up and say that they feel seen or heard. And just the things that are, you know, it doesn't matter what it is. As a father, whatever they say to me is whatever's wrong with my kid, what I hear is I can't fix my child. And it's hard. And I'm sure all parents, but especially for dads, it's like it happened on my watch. I take the blame. You wish you could trade places. And it ate at me for so long that I got to a point where I'm like, God, I have to rely on him. I can't. I'm not going to survive this. And, you know, and if God is good all the time and not God is good when X, Y, Z, whatever happens, then somehow you're good in this. And you have a different view than I do, I guess. And I'm just hanging on for dear life and just longing for the good. And that's kind of what the movie talks about is learning how to hold grief and gratitude at the same time, because life is life happens regardless. We think that we have seasons of highs and we're grateful and then seasons of lows. And I wish it was that easy, like the stock market. But no, the grief and gratitude have to exist together. It's like we have to find the good in the middle of it because the grief is going to keep coming. They go hand in hand, don't they? They really do. And if you can't find ways to be grateful when it's really, really hard, then we've got a bigger problem. I mean, but it's going to keep coming. Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't know if I answered your question. There were so many things you were saying. I mean, well, it's, you know, what's so moving is this past year, you know, we do an event for other kids that and families that we've helped and which my daughter kind of runs now. And the Mia move. And she came to us and said, if you want me to talk, you know, to the parents or whatever, because we have a little parent session. And I was like, are you sure you're ready for that? And she's like, well, I think it would help them with their teenagers. I was like, okay. So here I am thinking so small. She gets up and said a lot of things. But one thing she said is that she had grown to a place where she was thankful to God for bringing her through this. And, of course, I mean, everyone was wrecked. Yeah. You know, the parents, because I thought, well, here I am. I mean, I'm such an idiot this whole time. I mean, she has somehow found this even-if moment and has declared it and not even being nervous about speaking to all these parents. And so I felt pretty small in that moment. But I thought, you know, God's got a plan here. And don't underestimate the power of God to heal, repair, restore, and then use despite all these difficulties. But don't you both think, like you were both describing, and now watching your children become these faith-filled adults. And the same pride that you both mentioned, you earlier said, Bart, when you were talking about Sam, that he said, if this movie helps people, I'm all in, was the same moment Jace just described. But isn't that how God feels about us? He finally says, okay, son, I'm glad you got it. I'm super proud of you because we've been through this together. And so I think that's the beauty of your movies, Bart. I think that's the beauty of our movie. the Blind, which was about that transformation that happens that only God can do. And as a proud parent, he's with us. And what he says is, I was always there, even when you thought I wasn't. And so I think that's the beautiful part of these stories. The fact you get to tell them, Bart, in multiple ways, whether it's a movie, whether it's a song, whether it's a book, is a great blessing from God. And the thing about it is, you got to live through it to get there. and you have. I tell you, it's a different way. People ask me, because that same year when Sam was diagnosed, I had loved ones pass away, a lot of stuff. And for a long time, we thought my brother-in-law dying was really hard. It was a really hard time. But time allows you to heal losing a loved one. When it's a chronic illness, it doesn't go away. And the next shot comes the next meal. It's a different mindset. It eats at you. And it's not a punch in the face. It's just body blow after body blow after body blow. And it's, you know, I think when I realized it's a different mind, the pain feels the same. It's a different mindset. We caught our new normal. Like if you deal with anything that's just this is the way it is, we caught that. And when Sam was in the hospital, when he was diagnosed back then, you had to stay for like a week. Now they send you home like the same day with insulin. And we were supposed to play the Billy Graham crusade, the Rose Bowl. and I was like, there's no way I can go. And so the band was already out there sound checking, waiting on me. It was a last minute decision. And so we told him, sorry, we couldn't. And Dr. Graham reached out and said, could I, and I lived in Greenville, Texas at the time. Could I send a plane and pick you up, bring you to Pasadena so that Dr. Graham can pray for you and then you can go right back home or pray for Sam and you can go right back home. But you don't have to sing anything. I was like, what? And so my wife is like, you have to go. Like, we, you know, we're, we're kind of like you guys. our family's all around. It's like, you got to go. So first time to get on a private plane, I got my uncle and my cousin, my brother, because they'd never had In-N-Out. I said, we can probably get it while we're out there. And we flew out there. They got us up there on the side of the stage. One side of the stage, there was a massive mob of media. And they took us to this other side, which is an empty tent by herself. And I was freaked out, like we got all this way and they put us on the wrong side. He's obviously over there. And we're staring at the mob going, I can't believe. And all of a sudden you hear Dr. Graham say, sometimes it's okay to not let the left hand know what the right hand's doing. And he's there with us. And they created distraction. So he had this moment and it was unbelievable. And the second he said, man, I'm just so sorry for Sam. Can I pray for him? Every time he'd say my kid's name, it was like, Dr. Graham meant the world to me. And when he prayed, I'll never forget it. He said, he prayed, and this is an even if moment long before the song. He said, God, We know you can heal him. But if that's not your plan, then let Sam just change the world as a diabetic. And it wrecked me. And I've stuck with that. I was like, yeah. I was like, I've had people come to me, dude, not long ago. Like they'll ask me about diabetes and I'll start telling them. And they'll be like, well, then we're just going to pray for healing. And nothing ticks me off more. Because I'm like, really? Since he was two, that never crossed my mind to pray that he'd be healed. Where have you been this whole time? I'm blaming you for this, for waiting for so long. I don't say anything, but I know they don't know what to say, but it's like, come on, man. But yeah, that's been our attitude. You look at your daughter, and you're like, they're just going to change the world with what God's given them, and it's going to be amazing. They turned out to be prophetic words because that's exactly what's happening. Well, one thing, too, before we close. Thanks for introducing. Is his name actually Tim Timmons? It really is, yeah. That is great. I thought that may be a stage name. No, it's his name. He's Tim Timmons Jr. or something. His dad's Tim Timmons also. And I don't want to give the movie away, but that storyline and how y'all came up with that song was so powerful. I mean, here's a guy. They only give him a few years to live, and he's what? Yeah, he was given five years to live 25 years ago, and he still lives with cancer. It's still there. And they're like, you may live to your 80. You may die tomorrow. Good luck. You know what I say, Bart, when I hear that? That's a recipe for a really good song. Yeah. Yeah. We should write one or two. All right. So the movie, I Can Only Imagine Two, I think it's out 2-20. Is that right? Yeah, February 20th. Yeah. And then the book is already out, and it's called Even If, Trusting God Through the Fire. And so we encourage all of Unashamed Nation to check out the book and the movie. Bart, you're a friend, and we love what you're doing, and you guys are up there going. Just know that we're right there with you. You guys paved the way more than you realize, especially in this world that I'm not used to, so I appreciate it. I'm going to say, you need to go get in line right now. Me? No, I'm talking about the people going to the movie. He's already seen it, Jay. No, 2.20 comes out. I don't know when this is going to be released. Please do, man. It's true. That first weekend, it matters, and Hollywood lessons, and you actually have a voice by buying tickets so that more stories can be told. This is the one place, it's like the Wild West, where every production company is rooting for each other just to tell more stories of faith and it be more common. So support it, please. Oh, and it's not cheesy. It's well done, and it's fantastic. I appreciate it. So bring you some tissue. Thank you, Barb, for sharing your story with the world and with us and for coming on Unashamed Nation. Anytime, man. Thanks for having me, finally. thank you brother sorry it took so long what were we thinking thanks for listening to the Unashamed Podcast help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcast and don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode