447-The Common Sense Gardener, with Allan Armitage

Hi everybody, this is Joe Lample, the Joe behind Joe Gardner, and welcome to the Joe Gardner show. Today we are all in for a treat. I get to have a conversation with someone I've known and admired for about 25 years, my friend Dr. Alan Armitage. If you've spent any time in the world of gardening or horticulture, you probably already know his name. Alan is one of those rare people who has shaped this field from every angle, research, teaching, plant introductions, storytelling, and just plain passion for helping gardeners grow better. Alan has since retired as Professor Emeritus of horticulture from the University of Georgia, but over his career, he spent decades there conducting research, writing, running plant trials, and teaching both students and industry professionals. He's received just about every award a horticulturist can get, and he's written 16 books. Many of them, the go-to references, and professionals rely on. He's also brought us beloved plants, like the Margarita Sweet Potato Vine, and Verbena Homestead Purple, and the Sunlover series of Colious. Plus, he has a podcast and a great garden app that we'll talk about later. But here's what I love most about Alan. Beyond the credentials and accolades, he's an educator at heart in one of the best storytellers I know. And today's conversation is a perfect example of that because we're talking about something very different than what you might expect from him. Call it a temporary detour from his decades of more formal horticulture writing. His latest book, The Common Sense Gardener, feels like you're sitting down with Alan on his back porch, talking plants and life and laughing while learning something real. It's practical, it's insightful, it's funny, and it's full of that no nonsense wisdom he delivers better than anyone. So today, we're tapping into Dr. A's decades of experience as we talk about his newest book and his observations and experiences that shaped it, along with the lessons every gardener, beginner or seasoned, can take from it. I'm thrilled to share this conversation with you, so let's get into it. And as we do, thanks to our sponsors for today's episode, Cool Springs Press and the Ultimate Gardening Sheath. I love a good book, especially when it's about gardening. And as a listener to this podcast, you've heard me interview a lot of gardening authors. And it's no surprise to me that many of them share the same publisher. Cool Springs Press, including all three of my books. And that's because Cool Springs Press is a leading publisher of gardening books written by experts who live and love gardening. Their titles span all manner and methods of gardening, edible gardening, flowers, landscaping with native plants, permaculture, and more. 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Handmade in North Carolina by a skilled leather artisan, this sheath is practical, durable, and one of a kind. It's available exclusively at joguardener.com slash UGS. To learn more and order yours today, visit joguardener.com slash UGS. Well, I have really been looking forward to this conversation. It's been a long time since we've yucked it up a bit. And I even got my little hat here for him. And we just to make sure that everybody knows how you're talking to you, right? But we don't have to put that on now. Anyway, and I hope we can do more of this, Joe. I really do. We haven't seen each other for so long. Yeah, I know. I feel the same way. And we'll see what does, what happens. Yeah, this has inspired me really little fire under me to make more of this happen with you and not let too much time. We can do it together. Yeah. We can really scare people to actually get in together. I'm really scared. Speaking of that, and I'm going to leave this in the podcast, I just want to share with you an experience that you will probably recall. I don't know how you can forget it. But I sure have nightmares about it every time I think about it. But about 20 years ago, Alan, do you remember driving from Athens probably for you about 430 in the morning to be on our radio show at 6 a.m. and Buckhead? Do you remember the conditions of that day? Yes, it was not, it was not, it was terrible. I was so embarrassed. It was freezing cold and rainy. And I felt so bad because he's going to show up to a live radio show when those conditions other than those that have to be there. And I was so thankful that you were there yet at the same time I just would have given anything. Listen, we somehow faked it. And that's what we do. Life is good. If we could do this, like I still play tennis, Joe, I've done a tennis court. I've done a flank terribly well. But you know, a bad day in the tennis court is better than a good day in the office. So that's just because we are able to do that. And that's that's the whole gardening thing I'll look to. Yeah. Well, we'll do whatever we got to do to spread the word because that's essentially what we are. I mean, I can't always have a cheerleader now because it's essentially what I do. And you do a great job at that. And so we're into this podcast now because you've started us off perfectly. And I want to continue that because that's exactly what I was hoping for in this conversation. It's just that casual dialogue between friends and talking about your book. But I have a few questions I prepared for you and outline at least. And I always love to start with kind of the origin story. And you're, you know, what are the things or the steps or the events that led you to where you are today? Just kind of in summary. People often ask me, huh? I'm a heck did you get to do what you're doing? I actually have a, I mean, we'll talk about books. I know later, but I have a book that people really love. And it's called, it's not just about the hat. And, you know, I don't know if you have it, Joe, and I said, this is that this is the hat. Yeah, that's the hat. No, we know who the heck I am. If I put it on, it's oh my gosh. And so I wrote a book because somebody actually challenged me because when I speak, and we haven't been together for a while, but I think, you know, I tell a lot of stories. Yeah. Stories of how I got into this business. I tell stories about plants. I tell stories about all sorts of things, many of which end up being written somewhere. But this fellow said, why don't you just put all these down? I said, who wants to read that stuff? He said, look, you do this. And I'll write the forward and all that stuff. So anyway, I did. And it's called, it's not just about the hat. And it's fascinating reading if you like that kind of stuff. But I mean, if you don't know who the heck I am, so be it. But, you know, how I got into this and I tell this story often. And it's hurting in this book. So here I am in, I don't know, first year college, say, I have no idea what I'm doing. Joe, I've never gotten. I don't know. Okay. I got a summer job literally as a gravedigger. So I dug graves. Now it wasn't before front-end loaders, but as before, there were a lot of front-end loaders. And I literally dug a hole. But the other thing, this was a cemetery, which we're very proud of the fact that they provided perpetual care. Now, perpetual care today kind of means a motorgrass. Perpetual care there, well, this is in Canada, by the way, from Montreal, there's Montreal. That meant that we literally planted the gravesite. So that 6, 5, 4 dirt bed, good raised bed, by the way. And we had a little greenhouse and they taught me how to take cuttings and do this whole alternate theros and the jukegoos in this all little ground covers. And we planted the beds. Now, that's cool. But the coolest thing and reason it and it took me a long time to really, for this to fill to fill in here is that I had finished the day, it was 5 o'clock, I was tired, I was sweaty, I was hot. We had just finished a couple days ago planting this gravesite. We really loved it. And again, I didn't know anything. I was just a hired help, believe me. And this family started coming up to Hill. There would be Reft. They were in on tears. It was something they loved one had just passed away not so long ago. They'd had the funeral not so long ago. And they were just sort of holding each other up. And honestly, God, I can't make this up. They came up to Hill and they saw that gravesite and how beautiful it was. This is a grass was cut, of course. I mean, it didn't make their loss any less, but they smiled. They actually talked to each other and said, Oh, look how beautiful this is. And I was hiding behind a tree. And I was a first time that it kind of dawned on the Joe that this whole flower garden thing may actually make people happy. And I was dumb and young and stupid idea. That was cool. I forgot on the butter for a few years. But that was the very first thing. I think, or the second thing that really kind of made me think about this stuff. That's a new story to me. I love that story. And no matter how many times you've told it, I'm sure it's fun for you to tell. And I know everyone that hears it loves it. Great digger to hear that. I mean, and it was, it was, it was, it was really quite lovely. But anyway, I did that's how I actually learned what a greenhouse was. And it was a little tiny little thing in a graveyard. But we did some plants. It was good fun. Yeah, I bet. You know, we have a lot in common, but that just reminds me of something else I'm going to add to the list of things we have in common sort of. But, when I was in high school, my mother maybe take a career personality test or something where they score, you know, you fill out a question here at the score and they tell you what you're going to, what's your best at if you want to have a full time career. Guess what? My number one recommendation was funeral director. You probably would be very good at it. I mean, you know, it's so interesting. And I use, and I've been fortunate. I've been asked to speak at graduation exercises for the school of agriculture. I'm not for the big deal with the politicians, all those big people coming in for the school of ag. And I did it two or three times. And there's all these parents there, all their kids. And this is the whole school of ag. So that's a good number. And I'm up there. Yeah, yeah, no wonder who that I am. But I tell them, I look at the parents, and I say, Dad, mom, congratulations, you got your kids through school. But they probably have no idea what they're going to do. I said, don't worry. I said it like this. And I made them all, I said, don't worry. You just have to remember the advice of America's greatest philosopher. Okay. And I said his name is Yogi Berra. Okay. So the dad is a mainly pickup model. Right? And Yogi Berra said that when the path forks take it, that's what he said. And that's how every joy is how you got through your, that's how I got through all our listeners, somehow some path forked and somehow we took it. And I said, your kids are going to just find it. Don't worry. They're smart enough to get through here. They're going to just find it. That's not that was great. I'm not sure the mums really got it. But yeah, they saw you all over again. Something I've always been admired about you. And that is with all your accolades and your credentials, I can, I think you're the most humble horticulturalist at the highest level that I know. But I kind of see you as the epitome of the down to earth gardener next door. So is that just you? I think that's just who you are. I don't, I don't, I don't think you try to be. Thank you. Thank you. And I, I, I, I tried to be like that. I was a bit of a satis way. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how to be any different. I guess I mean, I could go stand on some ivory tower somewhere and, you know, like all this and do all this. And of course, if you read my bio, it's actually really awful. I mean, just was on forever. But the fact is, I don't know how I did all this stuff. My wife calls me a taz. You know, like a taz mania devil. I can't stay still. You know, I'm, I'm into this into that. But as far as the, the humility thing with all been there, I just think, especially this gardening thing, I don't care what it is. I'm, I'm, I guess like that. I'm actually going to do some other things later. But it's gardening. It's not brain surgery. It's not rocket science. If you mess up, it's gardening. Yeah. I mean, and, and so this is what I, when I talk to you on this new book, I know we're going to talk about, but it really, it's like your first computer you ever had. You were afraid to touch you. You're afraid of to hit that button or this key. And it's the same thing with many people in the garden. Yeah. So, they're in order means, right? You know, this old darn Georgia red clay or wherever you happen to live. And this whole thing about pruning, girl. Oh my God. People are so confused. And so this, this book I just did. I was never, I you, I think you read it. I've never was going to do a book on gardening. I mean, if you'll ask me to do a book on gardening, but you know, I just do what I do. But because there's a zillion books on gardening, there's eight zillion internet things and everybody's, everybody's an expert. So, but it happened just one time too many, I guess. I take a lot of walkabouts in my garden online. I'm always traveling somewhere. If I travel somewhere, I'm usually asked to do a walk-o, which means you walk around, you tell stories. Okay. I mean, whatever. I know whatever's going to be there. I know, as you do also a bit, I know I can name at least eight questions I'm going to get before even meet the audience. Okay. I know I'm going to get ponder. I know I'm going to get dear. I know I'm going to get, so I just know. Yeah. But it doesn't matter the one common denominator of all these groups, this confusion. They are simply confused. And I mean, confused in that they might, they heard this from somebody. Yeah. They heard that from somebody. They read this over here and the internet said this and none of them are wrong. It's just that they're confused. So this whole thing, let's use some common sense. And that's what I try to do in this last book. And you'll notice how short it is and how slow it is because common sense doesn't need to have a whole lot of description. There you go. Which is what I love about it. And also the juxtaposition of all the other 16 books in County. And I think that they're all academic based and reference guides and, you know, revered around the world for their information that's provided it. And then you come and write this. And that was going to be my next question. But you answered it in the preface of it. I think, and this is what I think you said, you said, what pushed you over the edge was that this book was not because of the lack of information, but the apparent lack of common sense. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know of my common sense, any better than anybody else. It's just because I've been around this long and I just experienced counts as something age certainly doesn't, but experience probably does. And so, and I wrote down as you read, this is very different than any other book I've written. And most other books on Horticulture, this is an error. This is me or this and me, but the common sense gardener talking to the fellow who wants to learn and send to other people. And it's a, it's a conversation. And that is, at least for me, rather unusual way to write a book on Horticulture. And about the, the style of the book or the format of this one where you have the character Evan, who's, you know, frustrated in his garden, he feels a little overwhelmed and he's seeking answers. And so he gets introduced to the common sense gardener who then refers him to other people. How did you come up with that format? I just loved it. And right from the start, it sucks you in with Evan sitting in his garden and who can't relate to what he's feeling in the moment, right? Well, you know, when you read a book, I mean, just read a book in your lap or whatever, you'll read a mystery book, you read an airplane book, it's, people are talking each other. Okay, that's just sort of way of books, don't, just whatever book he is. Except when you get into our field, I'm going to tell you how the great 10 perennials, and this is 10 perennial number one, two, you know, it, it, it, so I, I wanted to do something like that. There was a book written many, many years ago on in a business world that followed this format that I really liked. And so I sort of, I guess I stole a little bit of that idea too. I don't feel guilty about stories from other people, but, you know, it's obviously just the idea that let's have two people talk. And then let's have one person instead of talking all the time. Let's have that person send him to other people who have talked to this guy before. And so we'll talk to somebody who knows about, and it might compost yourself, do you know, is about what they do to squirrels or whatever. So that, that was just, that, so that's the idea of how I did it. And, and I want to tell you, Joe, as you said before, and thank you, I've written a lot of a number of books. I had the most fun doing this one. I mean, it was just kind of fun. As it evolved, I went back, you know, you've been working, go back three steps and hopefully you get, but it, it, it was. And what's the name of the people who are, yeah, I don't know, it's a cool many. So that answers that question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All the factors. Again, I hope people actually do want to get it, but all of the people in the book, except for having, were based on real people. Okay. They're not, I mean, I'll, somebody whose name is Robert, I said, Hey, Robert, you in the book, it wasn't anything he really did, but it's based on real people that I know. Yeah. Are all the, all of them, if I can use the term are born again, gardeners. They relighted it, they wanted to learn more. They were frustrated. We chatted a little bit and all of them now, I guess I'm a ball. Oh, that's interesting. And it's not that I talk them a whole lot. It says that again, come on over. It's just simple stuff to do. Here's how you do it. Put a plant in the ground. Here's how you do it. And you know, there's a chapter there on containers. How you can succeed with containers of acid in this guy. He didn't have a clue. I said, look, just get a big thing. And just go. And anyway, so I say that it's, it's, it's, I, it wasn't because of me, but it was, it was people that have kind of found the whole, this is great stuff. Yeah. I'm even hesitant to even use the term I'm about to use, but you know, and in all that you talked about a minute ago, this was what this is the most fun book you've ever had a chance to write. And I can imagine why? Because everything else you've written is so technical. And you, I mean, you got nothing can be wrong. And here you can just kind of wing it even though it's all accurate. It's more fun and loose and free flowing. But you, you basically in another thing I wanted to add to what I'm about to say is that you mentioned all the information out there. And you know, that's not that it's all wrong or all right. It's just a lot. And I call that the noise and the information overload and people just get overwhelmed and they don't really know who to believe or what to believe is their sources. But anyway, all that, all that to say is I feel like you take what could be or what has been explained is what, you know, overly complicated and you dumb it down. And that's the term I was trying to not use. But in a, in a, in a, in a good way, you know, you just really simplify it really is what I'm saying. Well, thank you. That was the idea. Yeah. Because, well, I mean, I wasn't, when I wrote this thing on common sense because this is literally, I could take anyone of those chapters, have those 20 people walk around me and that's exactly what I tell them. Here's pruning and four woods. Yeah. Dumb, dumb. Okay. And I do it's exactly what I say. And mother and, and, and, and I knew Joe, I'm sure you've taken people around the scary part of the, you know, they take out their paper and pencil and start writing it down and they're saying, oh, dear, but anyway, it's just, it isn't right. It isn't wrong. It's the way that it seems to make sense to me. But I have to, I have to, if I can't just tell you, you'll never get me off because I just like telling stories. But I'll tell you one more story. Okay. You're the term dumbing down. Yeah. I, I, I, so I was giving a talk at the New York, the town of Garda's many years. And, I don't know, I was doing something on plants and there was a Rotor-Dendron guy in a, I mean, yeah. Right. Big time. Yeah. And so we were all done and we had the little panel thing. And so questions in the audience and this person raised their hand. And he said, do you think we should always go with the botanical names only because there's more than one common name for all these plants. People get confused, you know, whether it's a swamp mallor or red high biscuits. People get confused. Only you think that we should all of us, everybody in gardening. And in the garden writing community should go with botanical names only. One guy, the tree guy said, absolutely, the next guy that came here, absolutely. I said, you gotta be freaking kidding. I said, if you want to kill gardening, do it by just having people learn botanical names. And he said, well, isn't that dumbing it down? That's what he said. So that dumbing down everything. I said, it's not dumbing down. It's raising up because we'll have a ton more people enjoying gardening. They can learn all botanical names and what? I'll be happy to teach them, but they shouldn't expect to be expected to know that stuff, to read one of our books and know what the heck we're talking about. I said, if you're going to a horticultural school or whatever, learn every botanical name. If you're a gardener, I was swamp mallor. It was just fine with me. I mean, there's so much more fun to talk about anyway. And so that the whole dumb down thing, I think that there is a dumbing down to be sure. But what it is, I think it's more about as you say noise, a confusion. Everybody seems to say that they're the smartest people out there, and you should do it my way. And yeah, I don't know. If you don't know anything, who do you believe? And not necessarily me, but there you got a book written in front of you. It's 100 pages and gives you something you can lean on. But anyway, I really loved that you mentioned that because I remember that story like yesterday. Good. I'm glad that led to you telling that story. I was a little bit hesitant to bring that term up. But now I'm glad I did. Yeah, no, we're not dumbing down anything. I think the more common sense, the more things we can do to relate to your mother, your neighbors, your friends, and they look at you like you, we'd be crazy with a trial in your hand all the time. But the fact is the more we can make it, that was even so simple, just make it comfortable. Then the more people we're going to have doing this. Yeah. And to your point, the world needs more gardeners. And we don't need to make it any more intimidating than it is coming now. We won't wait. That's for sure. I agree with you. So every time you say something reminds you, go for it. No, I love this free. Hello, people are telling jokes around the campfire. You couldn't remember single joke on the sun. So, and this is this is the more I, again, if I had one mantra, one thing to share with people about why the heck care of a gardening, a little lady with a hat on or it's gardening. And I love people don't want to garden. I have no problem. I don't care. Just, you know, cut your grass. It's all I want you to do. But I met the dentist office. Okay, this is just sort of kind of COVID is finishing, but it's not finished. Maybe we're able to do something. And you know, you got the, and she's terrific. Kelly was my dental hygienist and my mouth is, you know, taped open and all that stuff. You've been there cleaning the teeth. And she's going on on about COVID. Okay, one of my guys said, I don't know. Okay, what am I going to say? Not much was your mouth taped up. Yeah, she said, doctorate, she said, there's just one thing about COVID. I really, really hate. And I'm saying, oh God, here goes, you know, I can't go to dinner, you know, the movies aren't so good at homes and whatever. And she said this. She said, doctorate, she said, I have nothing to look forward to. This is COVID time. I have nothing to look forward to. My calendar's blank. I can't go anywhere. I'm not doing anything. I have nothing to look forward to. Okay, I can't disagree. I walk out of that office towards my car and I think to myself, a gardener always has something to look forward to. I'm okay, put a seed in the ground to look forward to it, germinating. You put a bulb in the ground now, you look forward to the spring. You put something, you do so, we, how many people can say that? That we are a group of people that always, and that puts smiles on our faces. Yeah, we're out there weeding and cussing and cursing and the rain and the sleet and the hail and all that, but we know, we know Joe, it's going to get better next year. We just know that. We still, we still believe in catalogs. I want as a friend. I really do. Yeah. It's uncanny that you brought that story up because my question that I was about to ask you is you, you entered that story and was, I said, I wrote myself a note that said, you write in your preference that you've noticed that gardeners are not really like other people. I believe you alluded very strongly to that in your example just now. But elaborate on that. Just a bit to punctuate that comment. Well, there's gardeners in there's gardeners. Okay, there's your next door neighbor who gets their mole blow, go guys and they get us fine. Absolutely fun. They see you out there digging in the dirt. That's cool. That's fun. You know what you're doing, but they're not going to do it. Okay, that's fine. I'm no problem. Then there's people that want to learn about or want to do some containers and want their deck to look nice. They want to put some roses or chameleons or whatever it is in. They don't know what to do. Okay, so this is almost getting to be the born again gardener. They want to learn more, but they don't know how to learn it. So they'll continue doing what they'll do and hopefully they'll continue buying. I don't care if it's, you know, if it's aster's or if it's petunias, it doesn't matter. They're going to buy something and hopefully they're going to look good. Then there's the graduates and that's the graduates, meaning the next stage and they want to get out there and make something on a sitting there deck drink a glass of wine and look at their garden. And you know, they don't like working a gardener more than you and I do, but they're happy to do it because it's like cutting a grass. I mean, I have a very small garden. So I don't, I can't really talk about cutting five acres alone, but I cut my grass. Smells good. Takes me no time. And it looks good. Yeah. The same things with a garden. You know, you can drag yourself crazy, but don't. Just as I tell people find a place you want to stare at, make a little bed, do the things I told you in a little book, put some plants in and bang, you're off to the races. And that's that's that's then those are the people that get dirt under their fingernails. And, and you know, I'm, I'm, I'm just as happy to truly have. I drink more wine in my garden. But I do anywhere else. Probably that's why my garden always seems to look so good. But the fact is that's, you know, we want to drink tea in the morning and I walk around and I drink wine and and even in the middle of the summer. Well, the morning anyway, I'll do that. Yeah. But that's because I like doing it. And I always have some, don't we all we were moving something in the garden? Well, we're saying, what, I didn't get there. Oh, anyway, I don't mean to I don't mean to wax out like one of your, that's just, for gardeners or if they like garden. And it's not a, this whole master gardener thing. I think that's a cool thing. Yeah. I mean, how many industries, how many, how many businesses have every state has a master gardener? I mean, it's amazing. Yeah. So, and these people, or you've talked to them, they are, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes, they are. That's my sweet spot for my keynote audience. And I've done that one or two of those and I really, really do. I mean, I love these people. They, again, it's just respect that they got a bit more to learn, but having said that, they want to learn. Yeah, yeah, they do. And you're, you're common about the optimism led perfectly. And the last thing I wanted to just mention because I love what you said here. And it was that gardeners have more optimism under one dirty fingernail than most people have in their entire bodies. And that's what makes this different, I think. Yeah, it definitely makes this different. But actually, we know what's going to be better next year. We just know. And so we're optimistic all the time. And it's a good thing to be. It is. It's a good thing to be. You think we ought to talk about your new book? Well, I would love to talk about that book. I think that was the plan. And, and, and, and just I'm going to show you again, this is about us. But there's one thing you mentioned that I got to make sure that the audience understands. I've written a lot of these, you say academic books, but they're not really academic. Every, every book I've written can be in the hands of gardeners. But why my favorite books, two books, in fact, which I'm going to make sure you send me your address, is of naked ladies and forget me now. I don't know if you have that. That's the stories of how plants get their common names. Yes. It's great for who's Joe pie. Yeah. Why is a dog would call the dog? And I do a dog, stuff like that. And that's been a fun book as well. And then the other one that I love your your Stevens is legends in the garden. Who in the world is Nelly? Yeah. I love these people that we plant. And because we don't tell these stories, they get lost. Yes. But, but having said that, they are again, kind of based on how we think we should write a book. The comic says, gardener, that's the one is really, and for what is worth, Joe, and you've already mentioned it to people, it's been out for a week and a half. Because we just did a Christmas sale, which is November 15th, December 15th. So we get there for Christmas. Yeah. And I will be in the spring as well. We sold over 300 books just like that. And this lay almost two books at a time or three books or one book or whatever. Yeah. So the whether it's and that's where everybody's read it. So I think it's the cover. It's at the name. But anyway, I hope we can get into more hands. And I know I hope you have enjoyed it. It was fun to do. Well, as I said, and in the, what is this called endorsement? Yeah. I've done a few of these. What is this called? Yeah. I think I started off. Yeah, I did write the first sentence. I love this book exclamation point. And it's true. I just loved it. And I I'll have it close by. And so we have 15 common sense lessons in this book. But we're not going to do all 15 because I want to leave something to the imagination. And I want people to get this book and read the rest. But we're going to do seven of them. If that's okay with you. And we don't need to, you know, whatever you want to spend with them, wax eloquently as much as you want. But the once I wanted a list, the first one was common sense gardening lesson number one, son versus shade. And and before you take off on this one, I just love your answer comes down to two words. This kind of embarrassing, you know, there's old books on this. Well, and the reason I put any of those chapters in is as I mentioned before, these are the kind of questions I get. Yeah. All the time. And it's not like sun and shade is all that difficult to understand. But what is difficult to see gardeners, people who want to garden, they go into a garden center and they get these big sign shade loving plants and sun loving plants. And then I'll be, okay, so what does that mean? I don't put under a tree. Okay, I got bad. I can hand it out. But all I simply say is those who are a little confused, there's no such thing as an amorous plant. Plants don't love anything. They don't love you. They don't love anything. They tolerate. And so what we think about is changing one word from love to tolerate, then you have sun tolerance and shade tolerate. And all that means a shade tolerate plant. Keep it out of the afternoon sun. That's it. That's it. Period. That's the only difference between a sun plant and a shade plant. Whether it tolerates that brutal western often. So Rose loves it. Well, it has to not so much. Okay, so I mean, I mean, I don't, I obviously just have been tired of saying books on this. So I can't be that simple. But for me, that's my little lesson on don't take life too seriously here. As I read that and I think it's the last wrap up in your that lesson is all things to say just afternoon sun is the thing you need to know. And I'm like, how brilliant is that? Well, it just, I think it makes sense. I mean, maybe you're all right. I think it makes sense. It does. And I mean, that really wraps it up. But is there anything else there you want to cover? Not that you need to. I just want to make sure we don't miss it. I mean, the labels are confusing because it's like I said, I don't know how much I got into the book, but you know, we have people that we're so confused about the sun, not because they understand us to some of it. It's different this morning. It's different in the afternoon. It's different in the night. So if I put a sun plant right here, well, sometimes it won't get forget about this guy had a piece of paper. And, and he had something in front of the sun. So he read that if the shadow is sharp on the paper and it's whole sun, if the shadow is not so sharp, it's, come on. He's actually right, of course, but anyway. So that's just making a little support. Yeah. Overthinking it. But so there's some people that just they love that kind of detail and that depth for sure. Lesson number two is interesting because I think if you, okay, and lesson number two title is Common Sense Planting. But I don't think people would intuitively go where you went with that title as to how to agree. Yeah. Okay. So I'm setting it up. Well, the reason it was called Common Sense Planting is I think in you, Evan goes to this fellow's place and he walks around and he sees it first of all, it's hardly any weeds. And he wonders, this guy must be on his hands and knees all day. And he said, well, no, I just put in more good guys. So there's less room for the bad guys. And essentially my my my comments as less than there was I get it. I get it read the books, put things a photo part or two feet apart or whatever. I just put it together or I should send a common sense card. And I just put the things together. And so I as I mentioned the comments as gardener says, think about as a house, your floor is your bed, put ground covers, then plant in the ground cover, then plant something taller around the thing you just planted in ground cover. So in that three square feet, you may have four plants. And of course, the pushback I'm going to get, I haven't got to get, I know I will. Is it, well, what happens? They're all going to grow into each other. Where is, you know, they're going to get disease and all that. That's not true. That's not true. Okay. I mean, of course you can overdo it. But if I'm going to put in bulbs, let me well, I don't care whatever bulbs they are, I'm going to put them both the bulb. Okay. I'm not going to buy three. I'm going to buy as many as I can afford, which may be 10. I put them both the are going to come up. They're going to come up through the ground cover or whatever else is already there heck of I know it's there. And then, you know, you're going to mess with those leaves for a while. Then some else is going to come up. That's why I say, if you plant like this, there's not a lot of room for weeds. I don't mean you're going to get them of course. Yeah. But they're just less space to do that. So, and it's like, I don't even know what the lesson said, but I think it said something a lot in the ways that, you know, more good guys, less, or fewer bad guys. I think you summed it up. You put more good guys in to leave less for the bad guys. That is perfectly clear. But I don't know if you're going to mention. But so, and I thought about how should I put this lesson in before this lesson? And, you know, I was thinking about all those things. And one of the lessons, I say lessons, one of the common sense things was, you know, the difference between mulch and compost. And people are truly confused with that. They just think it's all the same. Or if they don't think it's all like a fame, they just don't quite get it. But one of the lessons I mentioned was how to improve soil is simply, God, get it done in much compost as you can get, as you can either do yourself, kind of forward or do whatever, and put that stuff down. And that is what goes into the soil. That's the organic stuff that makes your soil better. You don't have to dig it in. You can be lazy, let me just slow it on top, but do it every year. And so, but if you have that, you have good soil, then you have a plant that's growing well. I don't care how many there are. If it's growing vigorously, disease and insects will be minimal. So it's not that I'm crowding everything in. There's no air and all this stuff. I've got them in a decent soil. I've got them growing well. And all of us can do that. I mean, but it's not for everybody. It's just the way that lesson came out. And that was the next one I was going to talk about anyway. So once again, we're in Sepatico here with the order of the things we're talking about. Naturally, I love that. Was mulch in that section remind me? Do you remember? Yeah. It was. I was like, Evan was, I don't know, it's Robert or whoever was with him. He said, but I get this compost now that you've told me about it, but everybody talked about mulch. Everybody tells it what mulch down for water retention and all these things he's heard about. And he says, you haven't talked about mulch. I think Robert comes back and says, well mulch is great, but quite truthfully mulch is ornamental. You know, in the so we put pine straw down or something else, or maybe we'll put that black dyed stuff because we want it to be ornamental. And it does most mulchers do nothing to enhance the so they're not hurt it. They just don't do anything. So if you have a choice financially, I can only do one or the other. Do compost. And if your wife says, do the pine straw, then he do the pine straw. But mulch is good. I don't mean it's nothing wrong. Mulch, but compost is the key compost is the key to everything. Yeah, I'm 100% agree with the compost. I use mulch in my pathways and yeah, and no, I use mulch everywhere. I use my pathways to be sure because you know, I think I know nothing about mulch, but if you're talking about the soil, you're guarding the soil or the containers, you're talking about if you can put the compost. Absolutely. And this is what I wanted to tell you as you were explaining that to me. It made me think of this. I'll tell my story now. But I get my natural hardwood mulch because I like to, where I use it, I like it to be there and let it just slowly break down so that whatever organic matter is going to trickle in. So be it and good for the hopefully it all works together. But anyway, there's a place up the street for me, literally up the street that I go and get my natural hardwood mulch. And the last time I went to go get a couple truck loads full, I had pulled my trick, pick up truck up there and I said, Hey, I'm going to pay for some yard or yard or two in natural mulch. He said, Well, you mean dyed mulch? I said, no, natural hardwood mulch undyed because they do a lot of dyed mulch and wear it. And he said, Well, we're at a stock on natural. I'm like, what do you mean? You're at a stock? You got so much mulch. He said, I know, but the demand for the dyed mulch is so high that we had to use what we had for natural for the dyed mulch. I said, what do you mean? He said, Well, I didn't know this Alan, but this is what I learned that day. I'm still a gas to buy it around where I live. There's a lot of HOAs that mandate that if people use mulch and they and I think they mandate, they have to use mulch, but it can only be one of three colors. Red, black, or brown died can't be natural brown has to be tied brown. That's absolutely. Can you believe that? It's just silly. And again, that's what I don't want to get off of this HOAs, but that's what messes up this whole thing. It's gardening. It's gardening. And I don't need some committee to tell me, should put red mulch, but anyway, you know, so be it, that's just silly. For me, I just, I get a pick up truck load of compost and our landfill, which is great. It's really good compost. Sheep because you can get it by the pickup load. And I put it down every single February. I put that down. Yeah. Even if you are, you got your budget of, you know, $30 a compost and get as many bags you can and stick it somewhere, it's just not going to hurt anything. It's an investment. It's 100% an investment, in my opinion. Or if you're really lucky and you know some horse farmers and cow farmers and get them a newer, that's just as good. Okay. Caviar there, as long as it doesn't have persistent herbicide in the horsemen. Yeah. We're going to have to have more conversations, because there's a lot to talk about there, including my bad experience poisoning my own soil with, yeah. I did something. I did the same thing. So we will. Okay. See there, people, people that supposedly kind of know what they're talking about. There's no experts here in this room. Okay. Well, you also already kind of tipped your hat to this one that about common sense disease in an insect management, but you talked about making your plants as healthy as they can does go a long way to making your plants more disease and insect resistant. Well, again, and I, if you read that chapter, some of the stuff I mentioned there is kind of sound silly. It works, but it sounds the water hose and stuff like that, but the fact is that your plants are growing well. That means they are in places they tolerate shades on. The soil is better than it was. Yeah. Well, you can do. And you know, you fertilize occasionally. We didn't talk with that much, but the fact is they are going to be far more resistant to both disease and insects. I mean, they just are. And of course, if you obviously don't throw any little silly herbicides, all the other nonsense we still do, but the insects are going to be the ones you want to have around anyway. It to me, it seems so intuitive. I think about it in terms of, you know, when we are trying to be healthy in our lifestyle and what we eat and how we take care of our bodies, we're more resistant to the things that would come our way. Well, we're all carbon beings and we all have, whether it's a flower, a chameleon or a person, take care of ourselves as best we can. And you know, we're the ones that are throwing all this stuff on plants. They don't go to the grocery store and, you know, buy the chalk and parts. But yeah, that is the key. And the key is it's not, obviously, not as simple as I say, but keeping your plants healthy. That is the key. Yeah. And here again, you kind of jumped right towards the next one we're going to talk about. And that was common since garden fertilization. This was an interesting one for me to read on what you wrote about that. But a super, super simple way to get the nutrients to your plants beyond the benefit of compost. Obviously, you've clearly made that point very clear. But anyway, touch on what you talked about there. Well, fertilizing is hard to talk about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Common sense manner. Right. I mean, it really is. I mean, I sell them confused. And and I also, we won't talk about else in the next video about what soil would bag soil you buy. It's confusing as heck when you see all those. And I'd hopefully made some sense out of it. The fertilizer for me, 95% of the fertilizer sold at Lowe's and Home Depot when the garden center is for truth. Okay. Yeah. That's where everybody's throwing fertilizer on. Fertilizers for gardens, IE, your garden, your container, whatever, it's pretty simple. You know, if you have the opportunity to use an organic fertilizer, I mentioned this and I happen to mention something called the Hoax End Sprayer because it's easy to do that. I mean, again, I have a small garden. It's a 60 by 100, whatever it is. But in the spring, I will nuke this stuff with organic, pretty much organic fertilizer through the end of the hole. Uh-huh. Because if it's organic or mostly organic, you can't over fertilize. And I didn't get into all this. But what over fertilize means is you put on too much of these inorganic stuff. You guys that are carried in it. And that's what hurts the plant if you do too much. So with the organic stuff, you can find it and and it's out there. And you can do it as as a as a layer. You can do it at a Hoax End Sprayer. You can do it as a osmical or, you know, slower these fertilizers. But, you know, I think my my lesson in that one if I recall was Evan was bemoaning the fact he didn't know when to fertilize. So he fertilized in a spring in a summer because in summer, he didn't know when to have in the fall when to go in a bit. And I tried to put it, I don't know, five words, whatever it is, you know, fertilize when actively growing. Yeah. That's the only time we need to fertilize. Yeah. You just don't need to be well, virtual. You don't unless it's an organic fertilizer, you're probably going to damage a plant if you throw fertilizer on and it's not actively taking it up. Okay? Because that's what means by actively growing. It's actively taking up the fertilizer. So in a spring, boy, things are popping and you know, we got a month or so we can do it. What I say, I knew could I don't I fertilized, I fertilized twice a week if I want. Yeah. Because I can't hurt anything. Right. And it's so easy to do the containers that hose in spray or your window boxes. But, but you know, what's what has 95 degrees out there 98 degrees? Maybe you've got a, I don't know, a peat tree or something, but, but you know, most of the stuff is just hanging in there. It's certainly most of the certain annuals, friends, all the other things we want for, you know, our, our own pleasure there. They don't need more fertilizer. So that that was my kind of tried to put that in perspective as to when fertilizing when I can be growing forwards. Yeah. Very good. I liked lesson seven, common sense garden design. That was one. I've heard, I mean, I've been aware of it, but oftentimes we need to hear or be reminded of something more than once. And in your case, this really got me thinking again, I need to do more of this common sense garden design. So tell us about that one. Well, again, there are some lessons to me that are really easy. Evan just needed to know the fertilizing thing and this compost thing and just, just really easy stuff, fruiting thing from easy. I mean, easy to explain. Design. So I will be the first to tell you, Joe, that I am not a designer. So any designers out there listening, I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm quite happy to admit that you asked me to write a design on paper. I can't do it. But I can design my own garden. I can design your garden. We can walk around together and say, this should go here and that should go there. So, okay. So that was one of the things I mentioned in that, although the whole first chapter about putting things closed together, because then your color design starts to make sense. And then I also, I think I mentioned a maximum about if you divide a garden in half, you multiply it by two. And essentially that means that if we just have everything sort of stuck under one place, it's lovely. But it's boring. Whereas if you're going in English to it with these garden rooms, I mean, rooms. But I have a front in the back and I'm going to get you there. So you're not thinking about going from a front to a back. You're going to another little area. And so I don't know if that's the design, but I really feel that. And then you go from this really cool garden in the front. And it's cool. And then you go here, you don't think about a whole lot because you're looking at whatever you're looking at. And then all of a sudden you come to what I call the wow garden. You're backyard. Oh, wow. It's over there. And it makes it makes a place look bigger. Yeah, it does. It makes it, I don't say less boring, you're just more exciting. And you know, when you're talking about exciting in a garden, or it just means that things are looking fun and the buds are budding and the flowers are flowering and the butterflies are humming. So that's the design. But if you ask me to write on paper how to do a hardscape and sauce scape and all that stuff, I'd probably be terrible. I can do it in my home garden. Just fine. Thank you. Sure. Well, I think there's a lot of psychology to dividing it up to, you know, rooms for lack of a better term so that you're not seeing it all at once and getting, you know, the one shot and you're done, you take it all in and okay, like you said, it's it's it may be beautiful, but at the same time, it's somewhat visibly boring. And I think without getting too crazy here, that's why if you plant a lot of things together, you like to talk to the ground cover and something in a ground cover, layers. I can spend 15 minutes with you and not move 10 feet. Yeah. So it's like you have a room everywhere you walk. Yes. It's not quite set out like that, but it just got a, you know, I mean, I say that in all respect. I everybody's garbage is their own. If you love it, of course, it doesn't matter, but I don't know. That's just how I enjoy it. That's all. Well, I don't even want doing that, but it turns out I am. Yeah. You said something a minute ago. I think I heard you say, I got to get you, I have a get you there. So you talked about your front yard. And then I think you said, I got to get you there. And then I have my backyard. That I think I look, so you do a little something in the get you there. I don't know if I think I actually mentioned it by that called the tunnel. Oh, yeah, you did. Yeah. It's a side of the house. Yeah. Yeah. What I've put mulch down on the walkway, I got chameleon on one side and I've got a rose that's growing beautiful. Yeah. So down the bottom, I've got, you know, some maybe impatience or something, but you're looking at these things. Yeah. And, and, you know, it's not, you can run through it, not saying anything, but you're just going slowly. So I'm getting you from A to B. So you've almost forgotten A by the time you get to beach. And that's the idea that you, the garden seems twice as large as it is. Well, I'm not so sure that maybe. Love it, because that's a very commonly neglected area is that path to get to the other place. Yeah. And here's the one you started off with that we're going to end with as far as the lessons go. And that was common since pruning. And you really simplify this one down too. Again, just, just people talking about this and they're afraid to prune. Or you may have some guy that, you know, the module guy, he wants to cut everything to the ground and a fall. Okay. I mean, that's just, but most people who, and again, I would I try to, I don't know, this is not a large chapter, but what I try to make people understand is that a plant does not need to be pruned. Yeah. There's nobody out there with secateurs or bloppers in the natural environment other than deer, moose or whatever. So it doesn't need to be chopped, cut, shaped or anything. We do it because it's in a garden. You know, a garden is very artificial. It's, it's, you know, we take that to boxwood, which somewhere in nature, there was a huge boxwood and somebody's done this and that and the other thing, or, or, or, or we take our, you know, our, our chameleons and we want to keep them in, but the plant doesn't need it. So when it comes to pruning, there are, are there not entire books on pruning hydrangeas, of pruning clemeness, entire books, and they're all correct. I'm not, not arguing with any of them. But as I said, and I think I may have said this book to you, some of them are a much larger book than it really is. But there's seven gardening for dummies books, all over 200 pages. Yeah, I said, what's self-respecting dummy is going to buy a 200 page book? I said, they have no idea what they're doing. So the whole idea is to make it down and get cut it down. So pruning, hydrangea, that's the number one. Yeah. And I said it, and, and, and if you start looking at it, there's old wood and there's new wood and there's grammas, you know, big mop heads and then there's all these new fabulous, you know, paniculata types. They're all, they, so nobody knows what to do. Forward, cut back after flowering. Doesn't matter if it's new wood, old wood, or whose wood, it does not matter. And if you, that is if you want flowers the next year, you can cut them back anytime you want, but if you want flowers the next year, cut it back after it's flowered, it'll then make new shoots. And if it's like like like your grammas mop heads, they actually are initiating now. There's flower buds right now on. If you cut them now, you're not going to be flowers. Right. The plant is just fine, but you're not going to be flowered. Right. And so the other types, everybody's selling the paniculata types, the lime lights and all that, you can cut those anytime because they, they bloom after they flower, they make new growth and the bloom. But you don't have to know any of that. Cut back after flowering. Done. Hey, but I don't mean to say to everybody else, I'm not even touching them at a cell. I mean, I'm just doing their thing. Yeah. Oh, well, I mean, I'm not trying to be, you know, I'm not, I'm not trying to say this is the right way. This is just, it's gardening. We just got to, we got to have fun. And we can't worry too much. Yes. Well, listen, I want, I have a few more just simple, fun questions for you. And I'm going to let you go here. This has been so much fun already. But you know, you're going to do with all this. Oh gosh, it's, it's going to be fantastic. But you know, you, you mentioned at the start of the conversation when you're out there speaking or giving a garden tour, you're getting a gazillion questions and you already know what eight of them are going to be because they're the same eight every time. But what, do you recall a question that you've been asked that was the most unusual thing that someone's ever asked you? Is there anything stick out like that? Oh, yeah. I mean, when I say I know some, I mean, there's no questions that come in there right off the wall. Yeah. You know, I do. So, okay. So, I'm always going to find by the way I've been, I've been teaching for a hundred years. I'm always going to have some student there that says, you remember me. That's that's what I do. I do remember me. And I actually sometimes I do, but we have a grand time because we had a good time together. But I'll have someone, the other thing, and again, I don't know Joe if you've had this, but it's, it's called stump to chump. I always somebody that wants to bring some plants from the garden with no flowers and maybe one leaf and want you to know, I asked you, want you to identify it. And you know, making you, I say not look mad and have to tell them what it is. I tell them. But the other ones are, I often get questions on specific plants like like Piennes. What do I do with the Piennes? How come some Piennes look good and some don't? And or, or what do I do with my values? Do I dig them? Do I not dig them? Stuff like that. So, I get a lot of questions on specific plants as well. And you know, we, maybe that's, maybe that's book two. They're called in sense of specifics. I don't know. But, but you know, and they're all valid questions. And I think we can make it simpler than I told them. But, you know, because we're your living all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, and, and, and animals. People are always, people are always dissing animals. You know, it's just another platoon. You know, it's such a crummy miracle. Like, God, the color you can get into the animals are just spectacular. And so I, I will, I will wax eloquent when people ask me about animals because everybody wants to have the perennials and the shrubs and this, that, the other thing. So, yeah, I, I get a lot. And, and one of was really cool is this guy brought up. And, and next time we get, I'll bring you some. This guy comes up to the front. I, I think I'm done or maybe I don't know. And he has his great big bean pod. It must be this big. Okay. Literally, it's like a fish story. It must be this. And, and, and he says, no, you know what this is? I don't know. I do. But I was like, that's a bean. Anyway. So he, he, he didn't know what it was either. Okay. So I said, can I have it? Can I see it? And all this, and I got his name. And it turned out to be, and I love vines. I didn't put him in that, I, I, I love vines. I put him everywhere. I think I mentioned it was a climbing vine going through a great river. But, um, it was a vine. And it was a vine that I, you know, sust-out, and it was called Canna Valley. But what it was, common name is Jack Bean. Jack is just like Jack in the bean store. Wow. If you want a child's garden, you put this sucker in. It'll grow a foot a day. I kid you not, and it'll make these, and it's, it's a bean or a pea. I mean, it makes these flowers. And then it puts on these great big beans. Uh, and, and, and, and so I found all this out. And I grew it in a garden in the travel garden. And we had them. And I tell stories because I don't tell these stories. And I wrote the guy, I said, you've got a really cool plant here. But you can't never find them. Oh, I mean, I don't, maybe you can find them. But so I, um, all you have to do is gather the beans. Yeah. Put the beans in the drawer. And what about next year? They're an annual. So they're, they're really cool. So that's those the kind of questions I actually quite enjoy getting. I enjoy getting stumped because I'm stumped and I'll learn something keeps you on your toes. Speaking of learning some things, we're still learning from you a couple of different ways. One, you have a podcast of your own called Stories from the Garden. And I have thoroughly enjoyed listening to you on my Saturday mornings. I've got my airpods in my ear and, uh, I'm, I'm, Alan's telling me stories about, you know, these plants and all the history of it. And you do that so well. When did you start that? And, um, you're going to keep that going? Yeah, we'll keep it going. And again, a lot of those stories are based on that book I mentioned of naked ladies that forget me not stories from the garden. Yeah. And even some of the legends I mentioned and, and also in that podcast, I'll just talk about plants I really enjoy. And what we can do with them. But yeah, I keep it going. Uh, as I've always enjoyed, and I didn't even know there was such a term called being a storyteller. But I always enjoyed sharing stories and things I learned. Perfect for you. What, what, what, what, is there somebody called Joe Pine? I mean, we have this silly name. How do you go through it? You find out, yeah, there is. I love that episode. Yeah. Exactly. So those are kind of stories that I really enjoy sharing. I weathered anybody, you know, I don't know. Thank you for listening. But it's, so that I do the podcast and it's, and I got a bunch of other stuff going that allows me to share what I know with, with, with your listeners. It's just good fun. And it's very enjoyable. They're, they're, um, kind of not too long. They're short and sweet, but they're the, they're the story. They're a delight. It's like we're, we're sitting around drinking coffee and you're talking about this plant. Well, you know, again, our stories make them short and, and people, well, you know, it's fun. It, because they're not tails or not yarns, particularly just a little story about, but, you know, I think, where is Baron work get his name from? What is it there? Or anyway, so things like that. Right. Perfect. Yeah. That's a good little overview of it. And then the last thing I wanted to just touch base with you on is your app. Our, armateach is great garden plants. That is such a nice resource. Is that really free? Did I miss the paywall? Yeah. I was going to say, yeah, whopping 4.95. But then I don't, I don't make you get the basic type and then ask you to to buy the high end. Yeah. It's just there. Yeah. And we have gone, and that's a lot of information on there. There is a lot. There's a ton of stuff, but it's also designed for a gardener. Landscapers like it, you know, all these other people, but I try to make it not quite as simple as a common sense gardener. Pretty simple. You know, where do you grow it? How do you grow it? What are the good varieties that I like? You know, and then a story. How does that story with you? Yeah. And you can search anything you want, whether you want to search a delphinium, or you want to search a dali, or you want to search a duty or something that they're, they're searchable. And it's good. It's okay. It's good. But it's a lot of work. It's a ton of work. Well, it shows there's a lot of work because it's very thorough and it's so handy. And a lot of recent, there's a lot of meat in there. Once you go to where, you know, you're interested in, and you click on it, and next thing you know, wow, there's a whole page on that. And I love it. And I think people need to know that. And I made it so that you can search by annuals, perennials, shrubs, whatever. Then also there's a whole thing on deer, there's a whole thing on solution gardening, because as you know, most people go into a garden center today, not necessarily wanting Martha's newest, but they have a problem. And they need to solve it. And they need a solution. So they go in and say, what plant can I put here? That's what they're really trying to figure out. And so I do that in the garden and fragrance and all that kind of stuff. That app. Well, I think part of what makes that really shine for a discerning gardener who's looking for good information is that it was created by a discerning gardener. And that that translates into the app beautifully. So good for you. And everybody needs to know about that app. And it's a steal. It's a good action. It is good for 4.95. That's better than a bad burger. And it really. And it works on both the Android and the iPhones and the Android and all that of stuff. So it's kind of cool. But you know, the last thing, and I know we both have to go with the total common sense gardening book. People ask me, where can I get it? Can I get it on Amazon? The answer is no. Right now in the spring when it's the big deal, we'll get it all out in the spring when people are thinking about gardening. But so we just, we just had this for November 15th to December 15. So people wanted it. I could get it to them for Christmas. Yeah. And so, you know, you can mention how to get the book. I want to make sure that people understand that Christmas is coming soon in the post-its or Christmas. Sometimes not as quick as you like. What's the, is there, is you have a link dedicated for that? We're going to have it in the show notes everybody. Well, all they got to do in your notes is just put Alan Armitage. That's my name. A-L-L-A-N, which I guess is unusual. AlanArmitage.net. That's my website. Yep. All the books are there and they can order it through there. And I will, if they wish, I will certainly sign it. And I will personalize it, which is much better in Amazon anyway. Yeah. But, but everything is pretty much ghosted from my website and it just makes my life easier because then I can meet all these people. It's amazing. I got all these cool stories. I I did a cut flower book and I got this lady from north of the North Pole. I don't know if there's such a place. As she wanted this, but I said, what cut flowers are you growing up there? It turned out to her husband. This is up in Canada. Her husband was a royal Canadian mountain police who was stationed there and the town had built a dome. Essentially a whole great big greenhouse so people could get out of the cold and grow flowers. Wow. That was the coolest thing. Who knew? People don't know who you're going to touch. Isn't that the truth? How fun. I'm sure there's a lot, well, I know there's a lot more we could talk about, but we're going to save it for another time. This was wonderful in it's in wow. I hope people will get too bored, but it's been great fun just hanging out. Enjoy your Christmas. Joe will have a fabulous time and let's make sure you and I get together again as soon as we can. Absolutely. Same to you, Alan. All the best everybody. What a fun conversation. If Dr. Armettage or Dr. A as he is commonly known is new to you, he is the real deal and a true asset to gardeners and horticulturists alike. I encourage you to check out the show notes if you'd like to see pictures that Alan has provided or one that I included from our very cold and drizzly day 20 years ago that I referenced at the beginning of today's podcast. And you can find it from our website at joegardiner.com. Just look for the podcast tab and this is episode number 447. And if you've never watched this podcast on YouTube before, I would highly recommend this episode for starters. It's very casual and relaxed and you will see our conversation with all the light-hearted moments as well as Dr. A as he really is. You can watch it from our YouTube channel, Joe Gardiner TV. And here are three time sensitive announcements that I have for you today. First is the annual holiday gift guide that we update every year ahead of the holiday season. It's a summary of my favorite gardening tools, gear, and gadgets that you might want to know about for yourself. I call it the best of the must-haves. And again, with this being the gift-giving holiday season, maybe it's something special for that gardener in your life. It's a one-stop shop of all things I use and love and think are definitely worthy of your consideration also. And you can check out the guide from our website at joegardiner.com. Slash gift guide, that's all one word. Again, joegardiner.com. Slash gift guide, no spaces. Also, if you've been following my brand new, raised bed rebuild project that's been going on now for almost three weeks, we've had great interest online, mainly on Instagram and Facebook and you can follow the action there. On Instagram, I'm at joegardiner and same with Facebook. And that's where we've been posting. But so many of you have had questions that have come up and we are going to do a YouTube live event to answer all of those questions and share pictures of it all and take your questions live. As well, if time permits and this is going to happen on Tuesday, December 16th at 12 noon, Eastern time on our YouTube channel, which is joegardiner TV. So be looking out for more information on that. But please join us if you were at all interested in this project or maybe are thinking that someday in the near future, you may have to replace your existing raised bed garden like I just did. Anyway, I think this round, they're built to last longer than I'll be around and that's a good thing. But this YouTube live is being set up on our channel now as an upcoming event. So keep an eye on the channel for that. And again, the date to know is December 16th. That's a Tuesday at 12 noon, Eastern time. And if you miss it, of course, you can go watch it after that. It'll be permanently there on the YouTube channel. But for your chance to ask questions live, if you can attend it live, that would be the best opportunity. Otherwise, you can just leave comments or questions in the YouTube post there. And I will be sure to respond. And lastly, a reminder, if you would like to get Dr. Armageddon's new book that we've been talking about today, the comments and scardener, you can order it now through December 15th only to ensure that it gets to you in time for Christmas. This is a book for every gardener and is sure to please whoever is the lucky recipient. Now be aware this book is only available from Alan's website. And we will have the link to that in the show notes. But if you want to make note of that right now, here's the site. It's Alan armatage.net. And I will spell that for you. A L L A N A R M I T A G E dot net. So that's going to do it for today. Thanks as always to Amy Princess, Brendan O'Reilly and Christine LaFond for their help on the podcast team. And thank you for joining me today. If you're a regular listener, I so appreciate that. And if you just found us welcome and thanks for being here. If you didn't notice, sometimes these episodes are a little geeky, but we like that. But my goal for every episode is to help you take the guesswork out of gardening by teaching you the why do behind the how to so that you can become a better, smarter, more confident gardener. I'll be back here again next Thursday for another episode of the Joe Gardner Show. And I look forward to having you right back here to join me for that. Until then, have a great week. Take care and I'll see you back here really soon. Thanks for listening to the Joe Gardner Show. The podcast where it's all about gardening and learning to grow like a pro. No experience required. For more information, podcasts, and how to videos, visit us online at JoeGardner.com.