Stop Being Scared of Fighting with Your Partner with Sterling K. Brown and Ryan Michelle Bathe

Yeah. You know? May I ask you a question that would probably be cut out of the podcast? No. Oh, yes. Yes, you can. Craig's like, please. He got it. Yes, you can. To get real for a second, because I think Ryan and I had this conversation before, too. If kids were not a part of the equation, in terms of, like, do you think that some of the tough times may have led to a separation that didn't? That's a good question. No, no, no. Here's what I think. This episode is brought to you by Shift. Hey, little girl. Hi, Craig. Craig, you Craig? How are you? I'm doing pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Once again, still enjoying our new IMO set. I know. Feeling pretty professional here in our new studios. It's great. It's great. And comfortable. Really comfortable. It is. The offices look great and they're comfortable and the studio is comfortable. I mean, it's just, it's incredible. And we're not even where we're going to be. We still got a little more to do. This is just the beginning. Just the beginning. Speaking of comfort, where are you staying in this go around? I'm staying in an Airbnb once again here and really in a nice place that's about 20 minutes away. And listen to this. I had such a good customer service experience. Tell me more. We went to dinner. We had a family get together. Yeah, we went out. Last night. And Aaron and I, my 13-year-old, we get back to the Airbnb. And the lock is one of these, you know, you got to figure out what the code is. And the numbers aren't always the same. And I'm like, I mess it up. And we'd lock ourselves out. Oh, I didn't know that. Locked ourselves out. Called the host. Uh-huh. Oh, and he was like, oh, just give me a minute. and he's like hit a few buttons and the door opened and we were able to get in as I was about to panic that we were going to be locked out for the night. So really good experience. That's really good. Really good customer experience. Well, I'm glad you're comfortable that Airbnb is still hooking you up. Yeah, yeah. They're right along with us. A great partnership. So, you know, we're enjoying it and really appreciate it. Well, I am excited as always for today's guests. And as folks can see, we've got two chairs here. So before we bring out Sterling K. Brown and Ryan Michelle Bathay, I want to do a little bit of an intro for our newfound friends here. So, well, not so newfound because you've met Sterling before, but... We go way back. Sterling is an Academy Award nominee and a three-time Emmy Award winning actor. That's bad. That's some tough stuff for a brother, you know? He currently stars and executive produces the hit Hulu series, Paradise. And let me go on record by saying, you know me, if it's not a sports thing, I'm probably not going to try and sit and binge watch it, right? Yeah, you're pretty limited in that way. Let me tell you. So in preparation for this, you know, what I try and do, I try and watch a… You hadn't been watching Paradise? I have not been watching Paradise, but let me tell you the story. Oh, man. What a— I'm watching it. What a stooge. So as part of the research, I start to watch it, and I'm watching it, and I'm like, huh, okay. And I get to the end of the first episode, and I was like, all right, let me just real quickly watch the second one. Paradise School. And then it was like, let me just watch the third one. And then I look up, and I was supposed to pick Austin up from school. I left the babies. Jesus is like, oh, Jesus, haven't eaten yet. No, paradise will do that. It'll mess you up. Mess your life up. No one told me about that. And it doesn't. It just like sucks you in. It just sucks you right in. And you can't let go. And you mad at everybody. And you know me, I'm a real snob. Because I was watching the first episode. I was like, well, this is just your run of the mill. And then it got right to the end. And I was like, oh, okay. Oh, this is different. Yes. Yes, yes. Okay. All right, but we're not getting that. But I digress. I digress. Woo, woo. And Sterling has also starred in an executive producer. I should be calling him Mr. EP when he comes out here. The acclaimed Hulu limited series, Washington Black. He is also known for his roles in This Is Us, American Fiction, and The People vs. O.J. Simpson, American Crime Story. Now, Ryan Michelle Bathe recently led the NBC drama series The Endgame and the film Boy in the Wall. It's my girl. She previously starred in BET's First Wives Club and CBS's All Rise, along with her husband Sterling K. Brown. Two actors in the family. Can you imagine two actors? We're going to find out what that's like. that they host and produces the award-winning podcast we don't always agree with her husband sterling now that's that's brave that is great and i've been listening they got me listening to this now i know right they're all in my feed here i know right sterling and ryan please come out because we need to we need to talk through this and and we got to give we got to give sterling a little bit more time to come out because he is injured. Hey guys. Hey guys. Hello. I love that you get settled. Oh man. Are you okay? First of all. You comfortable. You need a pillow. Can we get you some... Happy to be here. It's a true honor to be in you all's presence. It is. We're just following in your footsteps. This is the podcast vets. My wife was very nervous. She went through how many? 51 outfits. Why are you telling her? Well, because this is how important you all are to us, to the culture, what you mean to everybody. Like, your sphere of influence is immense and powerful and beautiful. Right? And so, thank you. Like, truly. Like, this is a real honor, right? It's hard for me not to be, like, climbing your walls right now So this is very good acting. You're doing great. I'm right. You look good. You are composed. You're beautiful. Thank you. This is going to be fun. This is family. Yes. Because we already know all your business. You guys are agreeing right now. I like that. Look at that. You're agreeing on being excited to be here. Let's hear how Sterling ended up in the show. Finished shooting season two of Paradise. Thank God it didn't interrupt that. My youngest son is a basketball player. And so his coach invited me to play like in a coach's game. It all begins with basketball. It all begins with basketball. With a black man in a burpee with a tornillo. Now that's wrong. It all begins with, and there was a basketball game. There was a basketball game. Now see, if you had said we were out there playing golf or something, she would have been like, what? It never happens there. It does. But she's right. It happens on the basketball court. The sports that happens the most, because I've done two ACLs and now this Achilles situation. The ones I hear, basketball, skiing, soccer, tennis. Now I hear like the pickleball people. Pickleball. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some chiropractors, rich. Yeah. But I was making a move to the left, like an innocuous step. Felt like somebody stomped on the back of my heel with a spike. And I started yelling. I was like, hey, man, who stepped on my foot? And they're like, what you talking about, man? I was like, hey, just apologize for stepping on my foot and we'll be cool. We didn't keep the game going. You know what I'm saying? Like, just keep it going. Just apologize. And they were like, bruh, nobody was near you. And it's that moment when you're like, you know what happened. You're like, man. Because you've heard that story. You hear that story over and over again. I went to stand up and then I was like, nope. And I scooched my booty off of the court. My team won. I stayed today. Because that. It was important. That, ladies and gentlemen, is an important part of the story. And you're like, you know that urgent care place you were talking about the other day? It's like Sunday. So what lesson have we learned from this experience? Oh, here we go. This is interesting. We had this conversation last night where my wife was asking me, are you still going to play? The ultimate wife question after a dumbass injury. There you go. So this is it. Honey, are we still doing this? So this is what I reiterated. Coach, you let me know how you feel about this. Okay. I'm a man of a certain age, right? I'll be 50 next birthday. Baby. Baby. A total baby, right? Sometimes when you talk to people that have given it up, my experience is there's a pervasive mentality of like, I've gotten too old to do X, Y, Z. I don't like the idea of getting older means that I've gotten old. So while I know I have to amend my game, I may have to do set shots. I may have to take it a little bit easier on defense. I don't like the idea of giving something up because I think that that is a pervasive sort of mentality that I don't want to invade the rest of my life. I like it. Okay. Does that make sense? Like I'm not trying to be stubborn. No, no, it does. Yes. So how are we about stretching? Very good. Okay. I stretch. My education part here is like even more stretching. Yes, ma'am. The older we get, the more stretching. What are you laughing about? I promise we're going to talk about we try. I don't mind. But I appreciate it. But I will tell you. No, this is for the... I will tell you. Your thought process about stopping playing... Yeah, no, it's a good one. It's a good one. ...is not faulty. You want to play as long as your body allows you to. And there are master's leagues for guys who are my age. Okay. Still playing. Right. You can play competitively. As competitively as you'd like. Right. Or as calmly as you like. Even if you're just playing three on three. Sure. But what I want to tell my sister, there is a finite number of games in everybody's body. Right. And when you get to yours, you have an Achilles tear. Right. Some people will get it at 49. Right. And some people won't get it. Right. You cannot prevent what happened to Sterling. Stretching or no stretching. Right. I'm sure your doctor told you. Yeah. No, it's just one of those things. But stretching is really good for you. Stretching is important. And also, I'll say this too. Stretching is really good for you. Shut up, boys. I'll say this too, that like, I've been making this sort of adjustment in terms of how I run from landing on the heel to trying to land midfoot. And I also think that there's something about the tennis shoes that we wear that don't allow the strength of the foot muscles to be strong enough to necessarily support stuff. So I think my foot wasn't strong enough to support what I wanted to do in terms of, and I had to start wearing a thinner sole shoe. So as I do my recovery, I'll try to work with thinner. So like when Rye works out, she works out barefoot. And I see like every time I do a little bit of the barefoot workout, I'm like, oh, this hits different. You know, because you're balanced and the little foot muscles are trying to work different. And I think I need that as I get back. You have a very small home gym. I'm not at a gym barefoot because that's nasty. Thank you. I don't want to say nasty. Can I say nasty? Yeah, so, but, you know, we have our little home thing. And I started doing that for that same reason. Because somebody was like, oh, it's about toe strength. And I was like, well, I don't know how to strengthen a toe. But it's like, you got to use them. I pull on them sometimes. I pull on their toes. Okay, well, then that gets us to... My marriage bed is under fire. Let's go. Oh, my word. He's doing everything he can to embarrass me. I'm just telling you now. I'm just telling you now. We love it. We love it. So tell us about the podcast. Let's start there. How did this come about? And how's it going at home after the podcast? This is good. I like that. I'll take the second question. You take the first one. Okay. Okay. So the first, it's weird how it came about. It came about because I really thought to myself, there have to be people out there on the right that I, this was before. Yes. It's like before, before. I said, there have to be same people I can talk to. I used to follow like David French and a few other people. I even Googled. It was actually at the, when President Obama was saying, you know, don't argue with the trolls in the basement. Like try to have face-to-face conversations. And at the time I was like, I'm going to take that mantle and change my country. And I'm going to start with, you know. So I was like, there's got to be somebody. I wasn't able to find anybody necessarily. And looked and looked. But I did. I did. I did look. I did look. I couldn't find nobody. Did this thing have been like chicks on the right? Is that the— I wasn't going to give them— Yes, it was chicks on the right. I did. That's a great concept. Chicks on the right. There was chicks on the right. I like that. And that's who I found initially. But then they kind of veered more and more right. I was like, oh, got it. And I even reached out to them, like email, because I was like, this has to be able— we have to be able to have these conversations. And I was just convinced. And I could not find it, but I was like, how do we have conversations about things we don't agree on? Right. Even while agreeing on our basic humanity. Without them sort of devolving into argumentation, but still staying in the spirit of like, there's a give and take. There's a conversation. Right. That's not like sort of antagonistic, but like, all right. And a real disagreement. Right. Like a real, like I stand on this side of the thing and you stand on this side of the thing. But it turned out the only person that I could have those. Was my husband. and some people can't have it with their partner. Yeah, they're called husbands. I got that. But we've known each other for so long that I think we've, and we're so, we came up with such similarities. We were born in the same hospital, we were born from St. Louis. We were both, you know, very, born to very religious families, you know, very close to our grandmothers. But then there were so many things within that that were so polar opposite that we've discovered over the years that We can't, obviously, we can't change each other, but what we can change is... But what we can do is learn to sort of live a little bit better with those disagreements. And so we were just standing around and, you know, it was the strike. We were in the middle of the strike and Rai was also looking for a creative outlet that would feel good. And I've always been sort of reticent to work together. Because absents makes the heart grow fonder. More than reticent. More than reticent. More than reticent, Sterling. You've been very resistant. Absents makes the heart grow fonder. You know, it's nice to go off to work and come home and be like, how was your day? Oh, this was my day. That's not what you said. All right, right. What's your version of that? You said, I don't want you annoying me at work. Do you remember that, Sterling? Do you remember those words? That sounds right. Oh, man. It sounds right, but not like, I want to be... Not in a bad way. Oh, no. Not in a bad way. It's like, you should have your space and I should have mine. That's what I'm talking about. You'll understand, Madam First Ladies. My word. This segment sponsored by SHIP is all about the comfort of knowing it's handled. You know, there's something really comforting about realizing you don't have to carry everything on your own. When life is already full, having one less thing to worry about can make all the difference. It's that confidence and calm that come from knowing something that's taken care of without having to micromanage it. And I think it really showed up for me when I went from being an assistant coach to a head coach. You know, being an assistant coach, there's tons of things you got to worry about. 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Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. so but i also thought that the concept for the podcast was something that was really cool and sort of fit with the dynamic of our interplay like we are very beatrice and benedict if you familiar with much ado about nothing and just sort of like there a verbal sparring that we have naturally that is fun without crossing a line Every once in a while, we both cross a line. And after the podcast, we go, hey, listen, man. Did you have to say that part? Did you like, oh, I thought we were doing that. And I'm like, no, no, come on, man. That one hurt. That one hurt. We have this thing. So we have this thing where, you know, we play the dozens, me and my kids. and like, you know, they'll say something. But wait, wait, let's explain the dozens because we got listeners who like, the dozens? You know, just sort of groaning when you're like, sort of like making fun of each other but a good spirited sort of thing where it's not meant to hurt, but just sort of like. Gentle ribbing. Gentle ribbing that sometimes gets serious. Sometimes it gets serious. I didn't grow up with the gentle ribbing. Let me tell the story. Okay, go ahead, go ahead. So I'm doing it with the fellas or whatnot and I'll be like, they'll be like, you look old, man. I said, your mama old. And they're like, that's your wife. And I'm like, I don't care. but that's just messing with him right and so I said something to Ryan just sort of messing with her to get her to go back and she goes that's why your mama has ALS and I was like whoa man that's not Ryan that's not you did the whole you did not understand what was happening between the playfulness oh man she just went right down wait a minute Wait a minute. Brandon's like, I bet this for her. Hang on. Hang on. Did you have any brothers growing up? No. She's an only child. That's why she got deep. I do have an older sister, but I did not grow up with my older sister. Oh, my goodness. And I did have cousins, but I dropped it. Brandon's like, isn't this the game? Me and the boys. Me and the boys all lifted each other. I'm like, what? What are you? It didn't quite go down quite like that. This is the point of winning. I think, well, yeah, that did happen. The point is to win the argument. It's like, I know what will take you to your knees. So, Brian, what was your version of that approach? My version was that we were going back and forth. And I had run out of things to say. And then I did reach for that. Yeah, it's not better. Oh, sweetie, I tried. You're like, everyone had a really bad thing to say. Oh, my gosh. And I didn't want to stop. That's great. Oh, yeah. That's how you end that argument. I did not know how to do it. It was done. Everybody go home. Everybody go wipe your tears. I know. Getting back to the fight. Damn it. Your kids were in the room. Oh, yeah. It was even better. We were all doing it with each other. You know what I'm saying? And then she tried to dance. Well, no. They're just like, oh, you know, we can't play with mom. Mom goes dark. She goes dark. Oh, mom. You know, mom don't know how to play. She can't win. When they go low, we all chill goes away. When Brian got out the shovel, she got out the shovel. I didn't know. I didn't know. I didn't grow up. I didn't know. That's a good one. This is great. Oh, my goodness. So I said that to say we have this dynamic. Yeah. And I also would say that because we've known each other since 18, we'll be celebrating 20 years of marriage in March. there are things at this point in time in our life that we can talk about that we probably couldn't have talked about earlier in the marriage without it feeling like we were reliving it. We can recount it now without reliving it. So it was the right time. And like, I think you mentioned this on your podcast where it's like, you want to sort of give a vulnerable and real portrait of something that, you know, we can't ignore the fact, oh, goals, oh, look at them, da, da, da. And it's like you see a certain thing, but it did feel like there was a responsibility there somewhere that we were like, okay, but we also want people to know what this really is. You know, it takes work and we can really talk about, you know, the ways in which we struggled and the ways in which we didn't struggle and the things that, you know, came easy to us and why. And the things that came difficult to us and why. so that people really don't think that it's just a, I woke up, found my soulmate, and every day is just. Yeah, that's right. Because don't you find that couples quit too soon? And we've seen this in young people. Now everybody's young to us, but new couples. And part of the reason why I talk about it being hard It's not because I don't love my husband and we have a wonderful relationship. We've been married 30 plus years. Something works, right? But if you don't let people know about the tough times, then I think they quit too soon. They think all the tough times are in that, I guess it didn't work. That's right. It didn't work. And then you quit too soon. Sure. And that's why I say things like you can go through 10 years, bad years, right? In a 30-year marriage. Yeah. And that's still great odds. It's not a bad, you know. Oh my goodness gracious. And every time I say it, people are like, oh Lord, I can't do 10. But if you were to play the odds of like, if you could have 10% of hard for 90% of wonderful, you would take that every thousand percent. And that's really the point. The point is that in any long relationship, there are going to be years, months, hours, long periods of time if you add it all up where things just don't feel right. Right. You don't quit on it. Right. You know, sometimes that means you dig deeper. And if you don't dig deeper, you miss all the stuff on the end. Yeah. You know? May I ask you a question that would probably be cut out of the podcast? No. Yes. Yes, you can. Yes, you can. He's like, yes, you can. To get real for a second, because I think Ryan and I had this conversation before too. In terms of the ups and downs, trials and tribulations, I'm missing it, but you know what I'm talking about. If kids were not a part of the equation in terms of like, do you think that some of the tough times may have led to a separation that didn't? That's a good question. No, no, no, no. I'd like to think not. Here's what I think. Sometimes without kids, some of the tough times wouldn't happen, right? And this is why I say, look, it's great when it's just you two. And because there really isn't challenges with division of labor. Because everybody can be their own individual people. You go off to your movie. Yay, yay. We have our separate lives. And then it's romantic. We get back together. The thing that makes that harder is when those beautiful, wonderful, lovely kids that we all want and love, they show up. Yes, ma'am. With their own agendas, you know, with their own needs. And now it's the first major joint project that you have to do together. Yes. And that's when the hard starts, you know. So I think a lot of our hard was because of the kids, who we love deeply. But I think without it, without them, you know, a lot of the hard things don't come up, all right? Because you can go to the gym all you want when there are no diapers to be changed. Thank you. You know, you can do whatever you want. Who's driving each other? Do you know how to make a dental appointment? Do you know where they go to the doctor? Do you know their doctor's name? You started it, so don't... You chime in, Crane. What do you got to say to her? I will say that... See, I've been married twice. Okay. And hopefully that'll only be twice. Don't say hopefully. I got you. Definitely. Don't say hopefully. No, it will be. But I will say the difference between the first and the second was that because the first marriage didn't work out, the second marriage, I really intentionally talked about ground rules before getting married. That's good. I mean, look, athletes devote careers to a jump shot. Shoot shot after shot. Years and years and years and years and years. Yes. You have one bad argument. You have one bad year in a marriage. I'm done. And you're done. Or you have three bad years and you're done. And look, the level of muscle that Barack and I have in our marriage is earned. It's earned over time. Right. And it's only gotten better. And I think that's the point. It gets better. And then if you quit too soon, you'll rob yourself of the success of the better, the work that goes in. And we've been married 30 years. We're healthy people. We could be married for another 30 years. That's a long time. And it could be 30 years of absolute bliss, you know, because we've done the work. We've gotten over the hump. Our kids are grown. They're out. We're looking at each other like, hey, remember you. now I'm not mad about anything because I don't need you to do anything for me you guys are ahead of us I want to ask these questions I have questions for you you guys are actually on our podcast right now every once in a while we have these moments about empty nesting and like the joint venture that you're talking about and how much time and resource that you spend on these both two people right and then the idea of like what happens when that project is over and have you neglected the time that you need to pour into one another because you've been pouring into these two beautiful people? Like, did you look at each other like, oh man, now we got to do this again? Or do you feel like you prepared yourselves knowing that the nest was about to be empty and be like, all right, Barack, all right, like how are we going? We need to make sure that we are straight in this moment. I think we're still developing that part of ourselves, right? I mean, our youngest graduate, well, she went to college. She's been out for five years, right? My math is always wrong. Graduated from college five years ago. Left, when I say leave, left for college. Okay. Right? Because that's the beginning of the leaving. Right. Like, you packed your bags and you're not going to be living here for nine months. That's a good one. For sure. It's a good start. Yes. Right? Yes. I might go in the suitcase. I just might. We'll talk. We'll talk. Because you haven't even gotten through the teen years. No, we just did the teen years, so Lord have mercy. We have the 14-year-old is beginning the process of something. You know, you'll be ready when it's time. As a knowing. Yeah, you're going to be ready. You're going to be ready. But I think it's a new phase for us, which takes time. Sure. It's going to take, like, we're in a new phase of life. My husband did the hardest job. He reached the top of the thing you could do. Now he's got work to do, individual work to figure out where am I going to be? What do I want to say? Who do I want to be? I'm doing the same thing, right? That's a whole new assignment, right? That you have to factor in to the newness of now we're doing this, we're back to just me and him. It takes time is all I'm saying. All of these new stages take time for adjustment. When you guys had, when the boys were infants, you know, when one was just coming out of diapers. That's a whole new phase when, you know, you move from everybody's in a crib to people are walking around. Like that can change the whole nature of your interaction with your partner. And it takes time. So we think this stuff, this is like really hard, complicated stuff that you are negotiating with another person. You know, all I'm saying is like it all takes time to think that there aren't going to be bumps along the way of each of those phases. Yeah. Right. This is OK. Wait. So this is interesting. I love this conversation. This is wonderful. This is wonderful, Michelle. Thank you so much. so in my mind like the question is for the listener in terms of navigating tough times Craig being on a second marriage now when do tough times become a step too far what what is the deal breaker like Ryan I say for most part it's like there are no deal breakers for us there are just things that we have to negotiate there's things that we figure out I say a rather crude thing about if you did this very bad thing to me do you want me to say no i do not yeah oh okay okay we don't want to embarrass logical humor okay i won't go into it okay it's funny but it's not it's not for the literal yeah yeah okay um but i was like if you did this awful thing to me that would be the deal breaker right and it's really something that she would never do okay right now i can imagine an idea of what you're talking about but my my question my question is then in terms of navigating these difficult times, right? For people who are also in the midst of difficult times, who are probably asking themselves, what's the difficulty that's too much? Obviously, if there's anything that's physical, that's transpiring inside of a relationship, don't stay in some sort of abuse. And I would say even verbal, psychological, physical, etc. Abuse is not something that is meant to be tolerated. Outside of that, I'm curious, Like, do you feel like there are deal breakers or things that you feel like people should walk away from or everything is meant to just find your way through? I'll start, please. Because I will say now in my relationship with Kelly now. Yes. There are probably no deal breakers for me. She might have some, but there's probably nothing for me. we could probably work through anything that I could think of. Right. Aside from your scatological. There you go. But I think we can make our way through it. But I wouldn't have said that when we first got together. Okay. That's years of work. That's years of talk. That's years of both going through our own difficulties and coming out of it. And together having difficulties and coming out of it. And you just, you emerge at a different level of understanding. A higher being. A higher, just that at a higher level of understanding. That's how I feel. Sure. I mean, it would really have to be something that I couldn't have seen coming that was so bad. But then I would be so worried that what was I in this relationship to make you want to do something that bad? I got to take the responsibility of it. So that's just my own growth over the years. I love that. I love that. Yeah. 30 plus years in, I mean, like, he's me. We are so intertwined at this stage in life. our experiences, our challenges, our family, like he would have to become a different person. Like that I would be like, who took over your body? And then we would be going to doctors and I would probably call the FBI. I mean, because I'd have to be like, something happened to my husband. It's not the same person. And then I'd be worried, like, what is going on? Right. I felt that. Raise your hand if you've been putting off a checkup, a dental cleaning, any kind of doctor's appointment. Yeah, my hand's up too. I'll tell myself I'm fine and keep it moving. But we can't take care of business if we're not taking care of our health. This year, we're doing it differently. You know that feeling when you leave a doctor's office and think, they really listened. That's what we're looking for. And you can find doctors like that on ZocDoc. ZocDoc is a free app and website that helps you find and book high-quality in-network doctors so you can find someone you love. You can book in-network appointments with more than 150,000 providers across all 50 states. Search by specialty or symptom from primary care to dentistry to dermatology and more than 200 plus specialties. See verified patient reviews, check real time availability and click to book instantly. No phone tag. Appointments happen fast, typically within 24 to 72 hours, even same day. I use this and you should to stop putting off those doctors appointments and go to ZocDoc.com. IMO, to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's Z-O-C-D-O-C.com slash IMO. ZocDoc.com slash IMO. Thanks, ZocDoc, for sponsoring this message. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Indeed. You know, I've been thinking a lot about careers lately, especially in a job market like this. One thing I've learned is that you really have to think outside the box when it comes to your path. Nothing about my own journey has been linear. I've made pivots, followed my curiosities, leaned into the strengths and skills I had at the time, and somehow all of that kept opening doors I never would have pictured for myself. And honestly, being willing to evolve made my whole career feel more dynamic and rewarding. 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It's a game changer when you're ready for that next step. Indeed's mission is to empower people to use their skills to find better work. And CareerScout is their latest innovation to help you do that. The future of job searching is here and it's called Indeed CareerScout. Try it today in the Indeed app. How does that happen? What do you have to say to that bird? Well, I think because I always look at it like life kept throwing us back together. You know, and similar to like, yeah, no, I'm good. Like we would go away. We would purposefully go away. And life would just keep tossing us back in the state. Our very first job, we were not speaking. We had just graduated from grad school. And I never forget. Yeah, this was on your first episode? Did we talk about this on the first episode? I don't. Did we? Did we talk about it first? It was under five on the guiding light. It was under five on guiding light. And I remember where I was when they said, you got the job. And I was so excited. It was your first job. I was in one of those big stores on 42nd. Not H&M, but V-I-M. Anyway jeans and sneakers store I was in V Don forget because I always wanted to go Because it the commercial So I was in VIM And I was looking at stuff And they were like And you got the job. I was like. Oh my God. Yes. I'm on my way. I'm on my way. Right. And they were like. And you got. Your other classmate is in. And I was like. Oh. And they said. Sarah Surrey. One of my dear, dear friends. I was like. Yes. Sarah Surrey. And another classmate. I was like. Oh. And they were like. Sterling Brown. We were not speaking. And we played a husband and wife. That is correct. In a Lamaze class. Yes, ma'am. On Guiding Light. For sure. Why weren't you all speaking? What happened? Who did what? Were you, was it mad I'm not speaking? Or you just weren't in touch? They were on and off. Y'all were on and off. It was. The time they met. It was. It was. Who knows? It doesn't matter. I think you weren't speaking to me. No, you weren't speaking to me. Facts. facts. But what I'm saying is we did our last show at NYU which was Midsummer Night's Dream. Yes. And I'd see you come off stage. I'm like, yo man, you just ripped that scene. I just want you to know it was really good. And you just walk. Who asked you? Nobody asked. You ghosted before there was a term ghosted. Oh, did you do something? You know what you did. But after sustained neglect, I was like, all right, I'm going to stop trying now. So we had stopped talking to each other. So we get on set to do this scene. And what happens is, anytime she knows that I've pulled away, she purposefully is like, hey, Sterling, how are you? What's going on? And she's like, yeah. And I was like, hey, what's going on, man? How you doing? It's good to see you. Whatever. So we had to do this scene. And she's sitting in my lap. You know, she's pregnant. I'm holding her up or whatnot. And the Lamaze destructor is going by. and she said and dads you're going to have to look after the mommies you're going to have to do this and that and give them sponge baths and everything like that and the line goes Ryan looks over her shoulder and she looks at me and she goes sponge baths and I look at her and I say all the time except when we do our line she looks at me and she's like she's touching me and all this stuff and I'm like oh lord please stop touching me and then she looks at me and she goes sponge baths and I look directly in her forehead yes and I said all the time he couldn't look me in the eye and you looked over and she could say she could say But the camera cannot. Yeah. And I'm doing this. It's like, you're trying to make it look real. That's my camera right there. Brown's going to make it look real. He's like, that's why I'm an actor. That's why I'm here. Man, she's getting on my nerves. Wait, now, now, I want to digress. Please. Just for an acting thing because you, husband and wife, both actors. Yeah. When does the discussion happen about each other doing make-out scenes with someone else? This is a very good question. Well, he reminded me. That's what the man wants to know. Well, no, it's not. I'm just kidding. I think that's a question that people... I think the public, yeah. The public wants to know. I've never heard anyone ask that question because either people don't have an opportunity or they're just like, I'm not going to bring it up. It is acting. And what a lot of people don't realize, it's not as glamorous as you think it is. There's sweat and people are coming to powder you and you have to hit this right angle because the camera can't see something or what have you. And it's very sort of like choreographed or whatnot. And I always tell the bird, I was like, hey man, make them look like you know what's going on. Don't let them think that we ain't having a good time up in this room. You know what I'm saying? We know how to get in there. So like, you know, don't go out and act like that. You know what you're doing. The family is what I'm trying to say. Show them you got skills. There's no real jealousy in that sort of arena there because like we both have said like to do it well, it's not about pretending as much as it is investing in the given circumstances so much that you are living the truth of that character in that time. So you got to fall in love a little bit and you got to be attracted a little bit. And that doesn't threaten anything that we have because we know where we sleep at night. We know who we've made our vows to, et cetera, et cetera. It just means I want you to act well. and hopefully you want me to act well and that we can, and sometimes, here's the other thing, you can take some of the energy that you got on set and bring that home. And bring that home. Bring it home, birdie. Bring that home. That's what I'm saying. Because a lot of people ask that question, like, how do you do that? How does that, it's my job. It's her job. And you do it. Have you ever felt, I just don't watch. He doesn't know this, but I just, when the scenes come up, I just close my eyes. Like, I'm going to get some ice cream. Yeah. I just don't want to. Fast forward. Yeah. I just don't watch. Yeah. I don't know if I could watch. Yeah. I don't even like watching myself though. She doesn't. You know what I mean? Especially in those particular. I don't like watching myself necessarily. I have to because I have to see what I've done wrong or what I did. But you know, I have to see. But certain things, there are things on First Wives Club that I still haven't watched myself do. I was like, no, I don't need to see that. And for me, I think it's the only way that I can sort of do what you say in terms of like living in that moment. I have to just kind of like take a deep breath, live in the moment. And then I really just have to let it go. And it has to stay gone for me. So I can't ruminate on the scene. And I can't ruminate on your scenes. And I just have to, you know, I just don't watch. Well, that makes me think, well, like you guys didn't answer the question really. It's like, how have you worked through some of the tougher times in your marriage? And does one particular time stand out to you? There are, so Craig was saying something earlier about like, you know, two actors navigating the industry together, right? And so there's something about, you're going to have your own take on this and that's fine. And I just ask that you let me finish my take first. We don't always agree. You don't always agree and he is preparing for you not to agree. I just ask that you allow me to finish my take first before you offer yours. Okay. Please and thank you. Appreciate it. There is sometimes this feeling of like, all right, when there's momentum happening in one person's career, you have a desire for momentum in your own career as well. And while you can say and truly believe that we are doing very well right now, whether it's financially or otherwise, if the other person isn't experiencing something that is validating for them on a personal level, whatever's transpiring for you may feel very separate and distinct. And so I will say that there are times in which I'm like, how do I make sure that my wife feels included and acknowledged and appreciated as there's a certain level of momentum transpiring in my life? And there's varying degrees of success in terms of us feeling connected in it and separate in it. So that's an ongoing thing that I'm navigating. After you. I would say you know George Burns was asked this question about his his long you know Hollywood marriage to Gracie and he said we never fell out of love at the same time and I can look back at our relationship and I really do believe that we've I don't know that that's a deal that we've made or something that's just kind of sustained us but I don't think we've ever fallen out. And even before we got married, I would say that when one pulled away, the other one was like, and when, you know what I mean? So I don't think we've ever decided at the same time, I'm done with you. And so I think that there's something that makes one of us, if not both of us, but at least one of us is always pulling for us. I would agree with that. And so I think that that's at the very, very core, at the very, very root of it. We believe in therapy. We very much believe in therapy. I think that that has given us an opportunity to kind of see the forest for the trees. Like what you were talking about is like, okay, you might have some bad years. Like it's only been six months. Like let's see what happens when the baby is walking. And then that's a whole nother corner, you know, literally and figurative that you're going to turn together. I also think that because we have the children again you'd like to say that well no we're not just staying for the kids you'd like to say that but it is we do know that there's something bigger now than just the both of us and whatever is going on at that moment yes I can be very volatile and I can you know say it again in the microphone no I am not I heard you I heard you you know but like you asked What things that you thought about when you were younger that you wouldn't put up with? Like, there is definitely a 19-year-old me that would have had the time of her life with a very dramatic, I'm packing this bag, and I'm packing this bag. Like, that would have been part of the fun, right? Burn the deed. And change me. Change me. Yes, come find me. Girl, you know what to do. And girl, where we gonna meet? Like, you know, the whole—I think I did that when I was pregnant, because I gave birth at home. And I remember there was, you know, stuff going on. Stuff going on. And I looked at my hand. I was like, it's bloody. And I put it on the wall. And I was like, ah, that screams so that I can have the bloody hand print down. Oh, okay, Brian. I'm going to watch this show. This is the only child drama. It's true. It's true. Reach out. I love you. Oh, my God. I love it. So you don't think of some stuff. I really can. I really can. Ma'am. But I think that I have put a lot of that and said, okay, now, now, now you have, you, you, it's not just you and this, the dramatic moments and all of those things. There is something bigger that's calling you. And it is those, those 30 years on the other side. It's the children and what, what we can provide. And it's, it's all of that. And it just feels bigger than just whatever that small moment is, or even that big moment. That's not to say that there haven't been big moments, but I think that there's something bigger that calls us to fight for what we have. I'm going to go back and just combine the two things together because it feels like when things are difficult, if we feel as if we are in them together, they are way easier to endure versus when we feel as if we're separate in it. You know what I'm saying? Like that's, that's always like, that's probably the toughest times that we have when we feel like we're going through something as a couple, as a family and or individually, and we don't feel like we're on the same page. Those are the times that are the most difficult, I would say. Yeah. Brian, I want to just check in with you on, you know, because you talked about the fact that you sacrificed your career to be there for your kids. you made some choices. That is the story of so many women out there. We can talk about being equal partners and so on and so forth, but we give birth. Our bodies change. We are constantly adapting in ways that our partners, our male partners do not have to do it. It's a part of it. And so we wind up saying you can have it all, but not at the same time. Right. Sometimes that's easier said than experienced. Most of the time it's easier said than experienced. I'd love to hear more from you about how you felt through those moments and, you know, how you're, I know you're still dealing in those moments. How does that, how are you coping with that reality? That is an excellent question. Very good question. Yeah, you know, it, gosh, that's a really good question. Because when you first, I mean, you can see it. I mean, you're pregnant and everything. Everybody's like, oh, so excited for the both of you. And then you look down, looking at you, you know what I mean? And you're slowing down and you're changing and you're waddling. And this, you know, like, wait a minute. Like, I'm already slower than I had really bad hyperemesis, which is when you just, you know, you're sick, sick, sick. and, you know, and then not sharing any of that. He's going to the gym. Going to the gym. I'm going to get a good workout in. And you're like, shut up. That makes everybody mad. I see this now. This is a universal thing. And then he tried to tell me, and the baby was brand new. He's in the gym. He's like, but I'm working out outside in the garage. You're welcome. Like, and he really felt like he had given me this very magnanimous gift. And I was like, if I could get up from this couch and beat you into something. And again, you're watching. And again, you want to be— That's the pull, I think, that a lot of women don't realize. Women don't realize the kind of mother they're going to want to be until the baby shows up. There you go. And you have no idea. No idea. Some women decide, whether it's breastfeeding, whether it's— Whatever it is, you don't know. It's an experiential thing. and when you, all those decisions are made very deeply in your core and I don't want to say they're made on the fly but they're made in these sort of like, just the baby's here, that's the decision. And so you had all these plans, right? And everybody told you, girl, you're going to snap back. Girl, all you have to do, remember we read them, you just do the cleanse, girl, do the cleanse, you know? And you're like, okay, well, I'll just, and in your mind, you really believe that you're going to just do this cleanse, You're going to pop back. You're going to put that baby in a little pouch and you're just going to, you know. Drop them off somewhere or have somebody else come in. You don't even know how you'll feel about that. You don't know how you're going to feel about it. When you'll be ready for that. You don't know how much it's going to cost. Yeah. Ooh, yes. You don't know that the woman that you want to hire was given a signing bonus. Oh my God. I tell the story when we did find a babysitter that was really, really good. And she came to us at everything. I was back to work. I love this woman. She was a part of our family, loved the girls. And she just needed to make more money. And we couldn't pay her more money. And she left. And I still feel that her, like, I feel the like, you know, I was losing my real partner in this endeavor. Oh, I wouldn't have thought I would have felt that way about my babysitter. you know I know and that sent me spinning that one thing sent me spinning in a fit of deep desperation that I would have never thought I'd experienced I mean and I having had that experience I understand if I hadn't had kids I'd be sitting here go oh that sounds sounds like a lot are you sure? is that PTSD? but you have to experience that you know like Zoila is Zoila Palacios is our girl. I call her my sister wife. You know, she... Shout out to Zoila. Zoilita. Zoilita. Hey, girl. We love you. We do. We love our Zoilas in our lives. Because you have that, you know, that... What we grew up with, that village, the grandparents, like somebody... You know, my grandmother never left the house. Somebody was always dropping a child off at that woman's house. And my grandmother was like in her 70s and could barely walk. And here, I'm like, you got a, whose toddler is that? She's like, I got him. And nobody batted an eyelash. Didn't have a thing and not, narrowing a socket in the house. You know, the little thingies. That's right. Nothing to protect them from themselves. And nobody was worrying about what they, what strain of food they were eating. Whatever grandma gave you. Was totally fine. She was, she has some fat back and some sauce and a biscuit. Baby holding on to some kind of bone. And it's like, I don't think they should have me yet. That'd be fun. That'd be fun. That'd be fun. You're not, and nobody questioned it, right? You just knew your baby was loved and safe. Yeah, because my grandma had them. Those communities are gone. We didn't have that. And we're some of the first people who don't have that. And so then we have to hire that and find that. And to your point, it's like losing a, it's not like, it is losing a family member. It is losing a crucial part. And again, you don't know what you're going to feel and experience until you get there. And again, to your point about each season. So now I'm like, okay, well, it should be getting easier, right? Because they're older and… And I got a 14-year-old and I'm like, oh, well, I'll just… You're a chauffeur. Let me just… I'm a chauffeur, but I'm like, I clearly need to ride the bus with you. I clearly need to be in every class. I clearly need to be in… Because what is half-man thing? Well, he thinks he can. He told me once, he was like, all I need to do is learn how to use this toaster oven, and then I've got it. Like, I've got it. Like, I'm basically a man. And I was like, you don't know the Wi-Fi code. All I need is a credit card and a driver's license. I can live on my own. He said that. He said that. He said, all I need you guys to do is take me where I need to go. No, that's a big one. But for that, I'm a mate. Who are you? But for that. I was like, and who's going to pay for school? And he didn't even mean it meanly. He was like, please, just leave me alone. Take me where I need to go. He did ask me when I was, he was three, and he said something was happening. He was three, and he was like, why are you always in my business? I'm like, who? Where did you come from? That's Michael Coyle. That's Michael Coyle. That's another thing. The thing that you love about this man, you are going to see it in a childhood. That's one time fair. And then you have to raise that. And you're like, oh, Lord, I should have thought this through. But every phase is different. And now you're, you know, just when you thought. Just when you think. Because you didn't know. Again, it's the experience of it. And it's like, and now you see, oh, this is how things can go left. Because you think it's when they're little and you're just pouring in, you're pouring in. Don't you want those days back when they were so in your control and all you had to worry about them was falling and scraping a knee? And now they are in the world. this world this is a good conversation you guys yeah you guys are good no we just learning we were learning from the experts no I feel the same I feel like even in a Rise approach and I feel you guys are similar is like we try to enter into everything with a level of curiosity we're not experts on anything and just hoping to learn like we're all in a process of evolving to become the best form of ourselves I think in doing that like there is just sort of like teach me like i'll share a thought and then let's see how it all sort of reverberates in the in the cipher that's right what i love about doing this aside from getting to spend time with my little sister yes on a regular basis is that you i learned something new in every conversation and uh even at this age to come to work every day and feel like you're learning something new is inspirational. Yeah. Agreed. We agree. We all agree. Well, we have a question that we get from our watchers and listeners. Oh, this is good. And this one is from our hometown, Jackie from Chicago. Come on, Chi-Tel. I love Chicago. Hey, Michelle and Craig. Shout out from Chicago. I'm writing to seek your advice about my relationship with my husband of five years. We both teach at the college level and share a deep commitment to education and our students. And much of our connection is built on a love of learning and a belief in bettering ourselves and the world However our creative paths and temperaments are quite different I work in substance abuse social work and my husband is a musician and visual artist with a strong creative drive We each experience our work so differently My husband tends to experience excited, creative highs surrounding performances and exhibits, followed by times of withdrawal and low mood after he's done or between shows. In those times, he's focused on his classes and getting the next show off the ground, but he can seem quiet and distant at home. He kisses me goodnight, tells me he loves me, but doesn't initiate much conversation or interaction. Although I need some creativity with problem solving in my work, I'm not involved in the creative arts at all and don't necessarily experience the same emotional waves. Here's where I need your advice. I sometimes find myself hesitating to ask for intimacy or suggesting going out on a date when my husband is experiencing these moments of just needing to recharge by sitting together quietly watching TV. I worry if I ask for affection or conversation or intimacy during these phases. I'll sound selfish or insensitive, but if I don't speak up, I start to feel disconnected and dissatisfied. I want to be a supportive partner during his creative slumps, but I also need to feel seen and wanted, and I miss the closeness that comes from shared moments out or together in bed. How can I best balance his need for space and creative solitude with my own needs for intimacy, affection, and quality time? How do I show up as a good partner who values his mental health and well-being without losing sight of what I want and need in our relationship? Thanks so much for all your great work. I'm going to tell Jackie to get out of my marriage. Welcome to IMO. What? Jacqueline? What? Because here's the thing. And you'll probably say the same thing, possibly or not. I think I'm Jackie. Are you Jackie? I think I'm Jackie. Ryan's like, I'm Jackie. That's what I was about to say. That's why I was like, you may feel the same way. But she asked you guys, so you guys. No, she's asking the table. She's asking the table. I mean, I'll start on it because I feel like we had a conversation kind of like this last night. Oh, wow. Tell us more. Are you okay, Ryan? We ready? Yeah, yeah. I wonder where he's going. But it was about sort of, for me, understanding the nature between acceptance and resignation. In terms of like, this is what it is. Like what to fight to change and what to accept in its current status and be at peace with. And like the difference between acceptance and resignation, as far as I can conceive of in this moment, is acceptance has a certain level of peace and resignation has a certain level of sorrow. And sort of like what, when to fight, when not to fight, when to yield, et cetera. So I can say this and you step in, please, because I want a back and forth on this one because it'll feel better. Okay. My experience of Rye when she is working versus when she is not working is very different. And there is a level of just sort of like, joy and and uh because there's a certain level of fulfillment from coming to do to because she's enjoying doing the thing that she's wanted to do what she wants to do right and so we ride a wave sometimes we ride a wave sometimes and do you feel closer when she's in that joy. Yeah. Okay. Hands down. Hands down. So the not working part you describe as that's Ryan's slump. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Agree, disagree. I mean, you speak on it because I don't want to go too far. Yeah. I'm... Back to Jackie. Come on. I was trying to discern as the children would say. Is she talking about the times when her husband is not working at all on something creative? Or is she talking about the low that comes from like coming off of stage, right? Because that's a real thing. Like you come off of stage and you have this high from doing whatever it is. And then you come off and you're just buzzing. And then you kind of go into a slump either like immediately after. So I'm trying to discern, is she talking about, he's had this incredible emotional high. He's come off stage. and now he's home and he's like, ugh. Like feeling the after effects of that. And that's when she wants to sort of step in. Or is it he's been on a creative journey, had a wonderful time, and then he's in between creative journeys. So I'm— I read it as the latter. The latter. But that's how I— That's a good question. That's how I interpreted it because it sounds like, you know, those periods, you know, Because the afterstage, I need a day. Is a different emotional, would create a different emotional instability for Jackie than I haven't, I'm not in my element for a year or months. Right. Right, right, right, right. And that could lead to the kind of disconnection that she's talking about. So I interpret it as these are, you know, there are periods in a creative person's life when things aren't coming, things aren't gelling. And he seems, Jackie's partner seems to get really low and disconnected. That's how I'm reading it. Okay. Okay. Thank you for that clarification. This is all right. This is a very difficult question. You know, I think that there has to be— Well, you know, we already said that your happiness is your own responsibility, right? And I don't want to tell Jackie necessarily to go do her own thing. But I do think that there is something about creating structures around these times, especially if you know that these are times that happen. I'm not sure in their relationship because she mentioned that they were both professors. So I'm wondering if they can, it might be easier for them to create structures around this because maybe there are like set points in a year where he's like, I just finished a show or, you know, something like that. So maybe it's helpful. I hope this is helpful for Jackie to set up those structures when she knows he needs a couple of weeks and maybe, maybe put a timer on it. You know, Jennifer Aniston said something that I love. She said that her, her therapist told her, you get a year to grieve this. like to the day like and it starts now now you're on the clock and when that year is up that's we're done and I do think that there's something to that maybe there's something to giving him two and a half weeks three weeks and she knows those three weeks are coming so she can set up her own life her own you know not saying she should go on a vacation although Jackie if you go on a vacation that's not the worst idea but maybe there's a way that she can know that these things are coming he can have his time and then when those three weeks are up he has to re-engage with her. So maybe both of them can have what they need and he may not understand that this, he may not even know it's happening because it's just his, how life has been for him. And now he has to contend with another person and his way of dealing with it doesn't, it just doesn't work. Yeah. I latch on to the question of, should I communicate these thoughts? That's Jackie was asking. And I would say, yes, you communicate to your partner how this is making you feel because maybe you don't feel like you're in a safe space. But I think at the very core, I would say, Jackie, it is not helpful for you to hold on to these feelings and not involve your partner in this challenge. And it may be better to do it in a time where he's up, you know, rather than. Yes. piling on at a time when he's perhaps already emotionally vulnerable. So thinking ahead to like, okay, you know, assuming that all else is fine and they're not teetering on the brink, that she's got to remember how she feels when times are good, you know, or remember the bad times when times are good. Because sometimes it's hard to have a conversation when everything is, a tough conversation when everything is good. Right. Yeah. But it might be necessary for her to say, hey, you're winning. Look at you. You just created this and now you're coming home. Now let's talk about last month. I didn't want to share this with you, but I don't even know if you notice, but when things aren't going well for you, you tend to show up in this way. It makes me feel this and feel that. Can we talk about that? Do you see it in the same way? You know, because she also wants to get a sense of what is he really feeling? She's interpreting what she thinks he's feeling if she hasn't asked. So she's got to give him some space to say, right, wrong. Yes. You know, no, that's not it. Or, ooh, spot on. And then in that moment, let's talk through this. Let's talk through a plan. and this, I think this, Ryan, is where the plan of, can we get some agreement now that if we, if we both agree that we're doing, you're doing this and that it's making me feel this way, how can we resolve it? And is there a period of time? Is there a signal? Is there a word? Is there a, or do we set up a structure that no matter what, we're always going to go on a date night once a month. We're always going to mark the box when we are intimate. We're going to, we're, we're, we're just going to practice our way through your bad time. But that's got to be a joint. Yes. Yeah, because he may not know. He may not even realize, especially if this is something that he's been doing, you know, before they got married. So it may be a complete blind spot for him. It might be a blind spot, Jackie. It might be a blind spot. But that's good. So we got some points for Jackie. And I think it starts with the communication part. Yes. You have to communicate it. and then and she shouldn't feel guilty or feel like she should hold on to it yeah there's some other issues there if she doesn't feel like she can communicate there's something I think that may not have been fully articulated that was part of our conversation in terms of what you said man if you make a bid for connection and you feel as if that bid for connection gets rejected then it's like then what do you do you know what I'm saying it's like oh boy it's like playing double dutch sometimes I was like, when do I get in with this cat to try to make this connection? And if you got hit by the rope, you're like, ah, dang, I didn't get in at the right time. Yeah. You got to be blunt, though. Yeah. You have to be blunt if that happens. Speak on it, coach. Come on. In my experience, you can't tiptoe into the rope, right? Or if you tiptoe into the rope, you know you're going to get hit. But if you go in confidently and bluntly, you're going to jump right in and get your steps down. That's good. That is good. Maybe that's what she needs. She just needs the confidence to boldly say what her truth is. Or I need to have a deeper conversation about what's going on here. And that gets to the negotiation, which gets to your structures. I mean, I love the structure. I'm a structure person. You have 30 points. Coach me. Coach me up. Coach me up. Yeah. And I will do what I can. But, you know, and sometimes in these relationships, and I don't want to get too far afield, I want Jackie to hear those three points. Sure. But I also want to talk about how Jackie can't be one of these folks who gets upset because the guy is like, coach me up. She doesn't want him to say, coach me up. She wants him to figure it out on his own. You're expecting people to read your mind is what you're talking about. You don't expect people to read your mind, which is why you got to go in bluntly. Okay. That's why you got to go in bluntly. Well, and then you got to also acknowledge that for Jackie, expressing her intimacy needs could feel risky. She may make her feel vulnerable. I mean, sometimes asking for having to ask, you know, that might tap into some insecurities about her. It's like, maybe I'm not worthy. Maybe I, you know, so, you know, sometimes that, that I want you to read my mind stuff is about like, don't make me say it. Come on, empathy. Like, don't, don't make me say it because it's hard for me and I feel unsafe. And this is where you got to know your partner because where, what's their history of safety and intimacy? I am Jackie. You know. Sterling. Sterling. I am Jackie. You guys had someone on your podcast who was talking about the edge of vulnerability. Like, finding the edge in terms of the vulnerability with your partner. And I feel like this is like… That was Orna. Orna, yes. And this is very much that. Like, she is really… Jackie sounds like she's at the edge. You know, to your point about like, well, there's something there that's very scary for her. And she's at that edge and like teetering, you know? Yeah. But I think she's, she may feel unsafe. Sterling is feeling it. I'm like, okay. You need me to hold your hand. I'll take it. No, just let it go. You are good enough. Listen. Ryan's like, please, boy. I love you. You are beautiful. I think Jackie is, she chose this partner for a reason. And I think she should remember that and remember that she may feel unsafe, but I think, I'd like to believe that she might be safer than she realizes. You know now. You know I'm Jackie, don't you? You are not Jackie. You are not Jackie. Jackie is Jackie. You are sterile. Leave Jackie alone. I'm Jackie. I'm every woman. It's all in me. Now, wait. I hope Jackie knows we're not taking her thing lightly no she got some good direction now I want to before we move on to the IMO segment the social segment you two met each other before today but you didn't get a chance tell me about that you've been rubbing it in for years I did a show called Army Wives on Lifetime. And there was, I believe it was like a luncheon for military spouses, et cetera. And you invited the cast of Army Wives because we were on the air at the time. And it was like an episode of Key and Peele, the receiving line. Everybody was in the receiving line and all the ladies were coming through. And Madam First Lady was like, nice to meet you. Thank you for coming. Thank you for yourself. Everything like that. And Brown got up there and I was like, can I have a hug? And she said, boy, please. And we just, it was like locked. The arms were out. The guns were showing. I was like, bro, guess who hugged me today? A real hug. Now the first lady held me in her arms. And I felt loved and seen and appreciated. And Ryan looked at me like, are you? she was so mad. And the more I shared, the more angry she became. And then the more I shared. I was like, she hugged me close. It's not even right. So did you commemorate that? It was one of the great days of my life. So I know my sister wanted to commemorate that. No! You have it! You have it! Watch your Achilles. Do not hurt yourself. Oh my gosh, Brian! What's his life? He looks good, Brian. This is a joke, you guys! This is like the greatest play of my life. You're going to get to take a picture after this and then you'll be fine. We are going to get a copy of that so that Mish signs it for you. I remember that moment too, Sterling. I do, I do. One of our strategies with joining force is our effort to support military families was working with Hollywood runners and writers to really reward and uplift shows that were shining a light on military families and also get writers to put them into scripts in ways that were normal and natural because most people don't understand that struggle. So your show was one of the leading ones. And we thought a lot of the military wives and moms were watching it. Yes. So we were like, this would be a fun moment. So it was really special. I think my mom was probably there too. I think she was. At that luncheon. But it was really, and the fact that the cast and crew took the time to come to the White House to help honor those women who were sacrificing and serving. It was really good. I know, I see. And I see the belt. I remember all your belts yeah those belts you can't miss those belts you cannot miss them y'all I don't know if you can come in on my camera but this happened like bro you think I'd just be making stuff up Brown don't be making stuff up that was the point this happened thank you all very very much you are so silly this is the sweetest thing ever thank you for being here are you kidding me well we can't wait Well, before we go, because, you know, you guys will be working together again. Yes, we will. Sort of a bit on the next season of Paradise. One of my favorite shows. I am there. Thank you. I am, you know, this Johnny come lately. I'm late to the party. Johnny come lately. I'm there when you're ready. You know, it's much better when I can just breeze through. Well, sometimes I just let them pile up. Oh, do you do that? I do. I can't do that with the ones I like. No, it's psychological discipline because I just can't. I need to. Psychological discipline. No, I agree. Can I say this last part to end? Because I was talking on That Was Us. I do a rewatch podcast for This Is Us. I was saying this about my wife. And I would put you, Madam First Lady, in the same category. And I'm sure if and when your husband gets a chance to hear this, he'll echo. There is one of the greatest gifts you can give to someone who has not fully realized their potential at that time is to say yes to them in their current set of circumstances and just believe that this is an individual that regardless if they have all the trappings that come along with what I want success or what I think success or what society says success should look like, I still choose you. That is one of the most emboldening and wonderful feelings that you can ever have in life. So to both of you, I say thank you. Because it means a lot. It means a lot. yeah that's a mic drop there really aren't you cute and that's why we stay they're just so cute and they say things like that it's like well this has been fun yes this has been great you had a great time thank you this is great thank you we really appreciate y'all yeah They're trying to keep us apart. They're not. No more. We did it. No more. No more. It's a pleasure. Same. Same, same, same. Thank you.