The Way to College Podcast - Ep 173 - Jose Navarro Part II

clergy clergy clergy This is Dr. Osesla Levitt with another episode, The Way to College podcast. Today, we're fortunate to have Dr. Osesla Levitt again. This is part two of our conversation. And it was just incredibly appreciated to have him back because his story is so rich. And like so many of my guests, right? Our stories are so rich. There's so much there, so much to unpack. And I felt it would be remiss if we didn't go back because I kind of rushed him through towards the end and getting to where he's at now. But I wanted to take some steps back. And so, Osesla, thank you for joining us again for taking time out of your busy schedule. I know right now, things are kind of slowing down at the semester, depending on the kind of faculty member you are. I saw somebody post something about grading and then another faculty member responded like, I feel attacked. Depending on the kind of faculty member you are, I know exactly where the both sides. So, Osesla, thank you for joining us. And Osesla, I wanted to take a step back. You talked about your experiences in graduate school. And on my end, I did graduate school and I told my students, if I could, I would redo it. Like that's one of my regrets. And the regret isn't the institution, and I went to UT and that was great, amazing faculty. But man, I was a commuter, I commuted to UT. And so, I didn't get, like, I didn't get to really visit and sit with faculty. I didn't know how to navigate. I was everything that I tell my students not to be, right? And we hear it, you know, we often tell our students, our university is a commuter school and I tell them, don't be a parking lot student. Don't be the student that shows up, takes classes and leaves. I was that student as a grad student. And so, I didn't get to, I didn't TA anything. I didn't get to sit in conversation with a lot of my faculty members. And so, I had a very different experience, but even then, afterwards, I wasn't prepared for the after. And I know a lot of folks, a lot of my mentors were, are you gonna apply for a tenure track position? And I don't know that that was ever my intent. I think I did it and again, you know, my thought process was, I loved learning. And I think like you, you know, you talk about when they gave you that, you know, that book and that connection, right? Man, that was college for me because I was a good kid. I was like, no, I think I was a good student, but I didn't necessarily apply myself. I wasn't like in love with learning. And I think that happened for me in undergrad and certainly grad school. And I wanted to continue the process and extend it as long as I could. Tell us about navigating that system and then the sort of what came next for you and how did you manage that? Sure, yeah, thanks Jose. Juan, I think it's incredibly amazing that you went through grad school as that community student. You know, I think few grad students do that because most PhD programs, especially research because they're research focused, expect you to be there and be available. And you're hours in the library and the life of the mind and you're just kind of, you know, or you're a research assistant or you're doing indexing for some professor which is the worst job ever, right? But, you know, indexing a book or and then they're gonna pay you like in free food from, you know, that's leftover from some invited lecturer or what, you know, all that kind of stuff. So I think it's amazing that you were that resilient and that you weren't sort of as connected to the university and made it through. I mean, that's incredible work. It takes a lot of self discipline. So kudos to you. And you're right, it's good advice that you didn't take yourself, you know, which is don't be a party line student. But even then, right, even at UT, I imagine, you know, grad school and grad programs, there aren't many of us in them, right? And even, you know, men of color, I think we talked about this last time, young men of color going to grad school, you know, I mean, imagine, right? Especially, you know, Chicano kids, Mexican dads, you know, mejor ya estar grandecito y apunta trabajar, right? And there's that sense, right? You're a big adult, like, yeah, why aren't you working? And you're like, but I am working. That's not real work. You know, and that kind of thing, you know, in fact, you know, for my friends who travel, it's one of the anecdotes that I give them to think about kind of work and workers, right? And class. And the anecdote is, I'm like, look, if you're ever in Mexico and somebody's gonna rob you, they're likely gonna rob you after they shake your hand. And they're like, well, what do you mean, Jose? And I'm like, well, if you shook my hand right now, my hands are soft, right? They're soft, my nails are clean, they're trimmed, but the minute you shake my hand, my hand is soft and smooth, right? I put lotion on my hands the whole thing. They know I work in an office. They know I'm not out there doing construct, right? Because my hands are not thickened up. I don't have the calluses, right? And so if you ever wanna think about someone's class status, you know, you look at their hands, you shake their hands, you rub their hands and be like, yeah, you don't have the calluses of someone who's bothered and working, right? You know, you have soft hands. And soft hands usually means you're unemployed or you got money, right? You work in an office, you work indoors, you know, licenciado kind of thing, right? And so for you, you know, as a young man of color to kind of not be as connected and integrated to that campus, I imagine, right? You have to navigate those things kind of like I navigated them. Even though for my family, it's sort of registered for them after I graduated from Berkeley, like, oh, this is meaningful, right? This is where it is important when they would tell their other friends or go to the doctor's office. Like I remember the first time I clicked for my grandmother. I bought her a Berkeley mom's shirt, you know? And she went to the doctor to one of her appointments, you know, doctor's appointments in the shirt. And the doctor looked at her and said, oh, you know, Mrs. Ortiz, you know, is your son at Berkeley? She couldn't even say Berkeley, right? I mean, Mexican, you know, Berkeley, you know? And he says, you know, is your son at Berkeley? She says, yes, yes, yes, yes, he's at Berkeley, you know? And he was like, wow, that's amazing, that's great. He made this big, you know, and got a virtual doctor, you know, his white doctor. So he's making this big deal about it. And that was the moment it clicked in her head, right? Oh, this is important, right? Well, that's gonna be important. This white doctor is making a big deal. This must be really meaningful. Otherwise, she didn't know Berkeley from the community college, you know what I mean? She didn't know Berkeley from East LA College. She was just like, yeah, you're in college, you're not working, I don't know what you're doing over there. You know, reading books, right? You know, and so there was that kind of sense. And so to get back to navigating, you know, graduate school, it was, you know, in some sense, you have to navigate those cultural and gendered expectations. And that was kind of hard for me, but it got better because I had been in school so long and because my family, the light bulb sort of went on. Like this is important in a PhD program. And then when I was in the PhD program, I didn't have a fellowship my first year. I had a final year fellowship, but not a first year fellowship. So day one, I was teaching, right? And so for them, the way it's squared for them that I was working is that I was teaching first year writing and argumentation at USC while I was in grad school, right? So for them, they didn't understand grad school and what that kind of trajectory was, but they understood that I was teaching. And so for my family and navigating grad school in terms of my family and that aspect of things, it made more sense because for them, all they had to tell people is, yeah, yeah, he's teaching at USC and everybody, you know, translates that to, ooh, professor, you know. And so that's the personal, that's the kind of home element to navigating grad school in terms of being in grad school. And, you know, I was, other than Noah and his brother, Ben, who was an incredible influence on me and really, really great, you know, both of them are my best friends. And I mean, they're my cousins, but they're also my best friends, you know? So other than them, I was the first person in my family to graduate high school. Even get a, yeah, first person to graduate high school, first person to make it to college, first person, I mean, grad school, first person to own a home. And I haven't finished paying it off, right? I live in California, not paying it off until I die, but, but first person to do any of those, you know? So navigating grad school and thinking about that, I think there was a benefit to me, kind of not knowing how to navigate it, not knowing what it was. And at the same time, it made things, I think, a little bit more difficult. Because unlike you, I was on campus, right? I did go to the library. I was connected to faculty and I went to the events, to the talks, to all that kind of stuff, like grad students are supposed to, and I TA'd. I mean, I taught my own class, but it was connected to a larger faculty members class. So navigating that was interesting for me. And it was interesting because in many ways, my own kind of ignorance endeared me to faculty. So I studied some big names. I mean, Therese McKenna was my dissertation advisor, first chicanade to every chair in English department in the entire country in American history. I studied with David Lloyd and with Fred Moten, and my class, when I taught writing, was connected with Robin D.G. Kelly's class. And I took a class with Ruthie Gilmore, and all these brilliant, brilliant people. And I had no clue who they were. You know, I didn't. I walked in there, I'm locked in there, grad school. I'm like, John Carlos Rowe ended up, my dissertation advisor, because Therese got sick. John Carlos Rowe is, as you know, one of the three biggest names in American studies. I mean, brilliant, brilliant scholar. And I had no clue. So, you know, I'm taking classes with Leo Brody, and with all these fancy people, and I'm just like, I don't know who you are. Right? I mean, whatever, I'm from the projects. Like, you know, okay, I'm gonna read with you. Okay, Leo. Okay, John. And you know, and grad school is always first name basis in the art, you know? And so I'm like, okay, you know, whatever. I have no, you know, I don't know you from Adam, you know? Yeah. Because that wasn't quite my world yet, you know? So it took another friend, a grad student, who became my grad student mentor, this guy named William Arce, who's a coastal recon dude. Chicano, you know, he identifies as Chicano, grew up in South Central. And like me, he sort of took me under his wing, you know, as he was leaving the program. But he takes me under his wing, he says, Jose, you know, you gotta know, that's Therese, my kid. I'm like, I don't know who that is. And he's like, look, man, this is a big deal. You know, I'm like, I don't, he's like, that's John Carlos Rowe. You can't talk to him like that, you know? Like, what's up, John? And I'm like, why not? You know, he's just a person, you know? So kind of navigating, you know, grad school in that kind of way. I think that endeared me to some of these brilliant faculty members, because I think for some of them, there's some grad students who understand the cachet they have, right? And who will buddy up to them in order to have them do favors for them, because they sort of understand, right? This is a capital, I'm gonna try to accumulate capital with them, and then there was none of that with me. Cause I didn't know, right? And, you know, my attitude was, I gotta read the books that you're talking about, I gotta write the paper you're talking about, like whatever, you know? So they kind of sensed it. And they were like, I Bobrecito, you know? And I don't know if they took pity on me. And I don't think so. I think they just sort of knew. And they started to help me, and they started to guide me. And so I got a lot of help from these amazing people, from Ruth Wilson Gilmore, from, you know, David Lloyd, from John Carlos Rowe, from Teresa McKenna, from Aldi, you know? And then because of Teresa, connections to Jose Limón and others. And then you sort of wrote, right? And as you read and you research, and you're reading these books, you're like, hey man, they're talking about you, John. You know, Donald P. Zadartmouth is like, oh my good friend John Carlos Rowe, like, and he's like, oh yeah, I know Don. And I'm like, okay, you know? And I'm like, Amy Kaplan is talking, you know? And he's like, yeah, yeah, Amy and I go away, but I'm like, what the hell, right? And it isn't until sort of you get into that world that you understand they're standing and who they are. So because I basically bumbled around graduate school in that kind of way. And because I didn't know the game, they liked me and they helped me. You know, Jose, real quick, you talk about sort of, you didn't know them, you didn't know who they were. And so you, in the beginning, you had a different relationship and maybe throughout you had a different relationship compared to maybe your peers. Your peers knowing exactly who they are. I wonder, and did that, because we talk about right imposter syndrome and finding ourselves in these locations that were like, I don't know if I should be here, right? But like also not knowing the gravity or their importance, did that make it easier for you to kind of just feel like, to just to feel like you were where you needed to be? Or did they did not have any effect on them? No, there was some of that too, Jose. I mean, the imposter syndrome, that kind of thing. And there was a bit of that. I think I felt a little more comfortable because USC is in LA. So LA is home for me, right? Los Angeles. So whenever I felt any way about the university, I just went home. I went to the projects, housing projects, hung out with my family. LA, like, if you know USC in that area, you're on one side of the 110 Freeway. And most of the people there at USC, tell you don't go to the other side of the Freeway, right? Because that's the hood. I mean, and the USC apparatus and security apparatus, it's huge, right? And so it's like this super secure kind of place in the middle of South Central. And so for me, I was always able to find refuge that way and balance things, right? So whatever USC was, people used to call it the University of Spoiled Children. You know, yeah, USC. And for whatever the grad students were, right? They can stick their noses in the air and whatever. And that would make me feel a particular way. And being one of the few men of color in grad school would make me feel a particular way. Whenever it got to me too much, I just went to the city, right? I mean, the city is a brown metropolis. Over 50% of people in LA are Rasa, you know? And you have black folks, Asian, like I can leave that space. Yeah. So it was a little bit different for me. I did feel some imposter syndrome when, yeah, some of my classmates, you know, they read some things or they were like, of course, you know, this conference, of course that conference. So I didn't start conferencing and doing that kind of thing until later in my grad school career. When, you know, some of my colleagues, already, you know, they were up on game, right? They knew. Yeah. You go to conferences, you try to present, you try to do these kinds of things. And so that took me much longer to kind of on the uptake. And so I did. I did feel there was, you know, racial aggression. There were other kinds of things like that. In fact, I just think I remember my first year of grad school, I didn't really have kind of grad school friends. Everybody talks about the cohort, right? So my cohort was, I think, 12 people. And there were of the 12, maybe two people in my cohort that really talked to me and, you know, like a human being. You know what I mean? Otherwise, and even my first year of grad school, I was in the seminar and, you know, I did my reading and I said something, you know, that the professor was like, oh, this is really insightful. This is really good. And in the break in our seminar, because there are three hour long classes, and usually the faculty gives you a break in the middle. There's one other grad student, this white dude, comes up to me and he supposedly, you know, progressive white dude, comes up to me and he says, well, that was pretty good, Jose. But, you know, we'll see who gets more scott, more fellowships in the end. And all this kind of stuff and tries to, you know, and I looked at it. Yeah. And I looked at him and I was like, bro, I don't even know you. Right. Number one, I don't know. That we're competing for fellowship or whatever you think we're competing for. I really don't care. But I need you to step away from me, you know. And so dude was like, yeah, well, we'll see who wins out in the end. I'm like, I don't know. Like, come on, bro. You know, this is not the place. Right. Yeah. So you have someone like that. Really, you know, because again, right, I think we had talked briefly about this, but you think for some people, the world around them and the structure around them, either from their parents, their home, their neighborhood, right? There's all this structural benefit that a lot of them, I think, once they come to realize that their achievements are not fully their own as individuals, because what they achieve is built on the structure around them. It's built on mom and dad's education. It's built on mom and dad's knowledge of college and grad school. It's built on their social networks. It's built on their wealth. It's all of that help. Right. So these wealthy kids and these upper middle class kids that end up in grad school with us, at some point, they're going to realize that. I mean, at some point, they have to do the reading. They've got to do the work as well. But much of their success is boosted by their parents' income. It's boosted, right? So they have all this help built in. And then the trickiness of that and the nastiness of that is they soon forget that their success and them getting to grad school is built on their parents' income. It's built on their parents' help. It's built on this huge structure. Right. Yeah. They turn around and they look at people like me and you and they go, I did it all by myself, right? Which is a load of crap. And when poor kids like me and you get some help, they go, oh, look, you didn't do it all by yourself. You're an affirmative action case. You just got to help from the government. And you go, well, look, if we calculate how much help you got from mom, dad, their income, their social networks, when you graduated, letters of recommendation from their little buddies, from everything else. And the amount of help I got from affirmative action. Well, you've got a whole lot more help than I did. Yeah. So a lot of all, right, in the long run, we do it more all by ourselves than they do. But they like to think that way, right? So this one dude, that was my experience in grad school, is that this one dude is coming to this kind of realization, looking at me going, this ghetto ass kid from the hood in grad school doesn't really belong. But yeah, he's giving me competition, right? So you look at that kind of thing. And yes, on the one part for me, it rattles me and it rattled me. And there was that imposter syndrome. On the other hand, I was quickly realizing if I stuck that dude in my neighborhood, he wouldn't last the night, right? So I did. I to answer your question briefly, then I often talk about between the sense of imposter syndrome that I don't belong in that world because people like that made me feel like I didn't belong in that world. Yeah. And on the other hand, going, that won't last a day at my hood. Right. Yeah. The conditions I suffered, all that dude would cry. Right. He locked himself in his room, never come out. I mean, we'll take his lunch money every day. Like, you know, that was that kind of thing. So, you know, I was fortunate, was said, to be there at USC, to be able to go between these spaces and retreat. Right. Whenever I needed solace, whenever I needed. And ironically, I retreated to the housing project. You know, from USC. I mean, you know, yeah, the place I felt safer. Yeah. No, I said, thank you. Thank you for breaking it down like that. But also thank you for. I think talking about like safety and finding refuge in home. And I think like you, I think one of the benefits of being the commuter student was I remember feeling imposter syndrome as an undergrad. And I think as a grad student. I didn't have time to think about it. Because because it was so much of because like I wasn't there and I didn't I didn't have to interact. I mean, I knew the grad students that the class, the students that I had in class, I think I was able to befriend a lot of them. I was fortunate, I think in the program, there were a lot of other folks of color. And so and so, you know, I didn't have that experience, like what you had. But I also didn't have a lot of time to think about it because it was just come and go. And so I think like you, I was able to. To come home, you know, to come home, you know, the, you know, in the following day and kind of kind of just come back to for me, it was reality. It always that that always felt weird, just that transition going and taking classes and then coming back. Here you are, you're in grad school, right? And the the you're doing this and with the intention that you wanted to be a professor, was that always the intent your intent? It was a vague idea, right? I mean, I thought being a professor meant you were a teacher at the university. Yeah. So I didn't even know that. You know, when I applied to grad school, I only played to three. I applied to Berkeley, Stanford and USC. And USC was my kind of safety school, right? Berkeley was like, look, you came here as an undergrad. We might not encourage you to go somewhere else. Yeah. Stanford was, you know, I heard from Paul Amoya and she was like, look, we're admitting, I think it was two or three students, maybe it was three. I was like, she was like, you're like number four on our list, let's say. If someone says no, then we'll call you up. And USC was like, yeah, you know, I got a phone call. I was like, please reserve these dates. Congratulations. We'd like to, you know, fly you out so you can come check out campus, meet faculty. And there was full on recruitment. And so I was like, wow, this is amazing, right? I wanted that intellectual life. Mostly I wanted to be a teacher is what I thought being a professor was. Because again, I had no idea, right? I had no idea where Berkeley was, what it was as an institution. I'm just sort of bumbling my way through. When I talk to students about my college experience, the metaphor that I use is me going to college and that whole process is like any of us walking into a room that we've never been in and the lights are completely off. But someone tells you, you're going to walk into the room through this door. There's a door at the other end of this room that you have to exit through. And make your way through as fast as possible. And so me never having gone to college, never experiencing any of that. It's like walking in that dark room. And when you walk in the dark room that you can't see, you're basically slowly moving through hands out in front of you and you know, you bump into the chair and you're like, aching out, right? You bump into the table and you're like, aching out. And you bump and bump all the way through until you get to the other end. And you might be bumped and bruised. But when you make it through that other door, you're like, I've made it. And then when you get to the other side, you realize, man, I'm just going to flip the switch and you flip the switch and you look back and you're like, oh, look at, there's the tables. This is how you make it through. You get a greater sense of the path forward, right? From one end of the room to the other. But it's not until you graduate from college and have had this experience that the light bulb goes on, right? That you flick the switch and not until you're looking back that you do this. This is cultural capital, right? This is what we call cultural capital. What Bordeaux and others call cultural capital. So grad school was like walking into another room that was not quite as dark, but still dimly lit, right? And so when I walked into grad school, the idea of being a professor, I thought, that's just a teacher. Yeah. Because nobody said to me, like nobody sat me down and be like, no, a professor actually has three jobs. Their jobs are to do research and publish, to teach, and to do service to the department of the university. And every professor has those three jobs. And when you get evaluated, you're going to get evaluated on how well you do those three, mostly though we only care about the research. No one really cares about the teaching, right? Mostly the research. And in most universities, you research and you publish, or you don't keep your job. Right? And so it wasn't until, again, I'm on the job market, where I'm bumbling around again, right? And the faculty know, and they just assume that I know, and that's the other thing about grad school, right? Is all of these professors just assume you know all this stuff? They're like, you applied to grad school, you applied to a PhD. Yeah, you should know this, Jose. And I'm like, I don't know this. And they're like, what do you mean you don't know this? It's research teaching service, right? I'm like, I don't know this. And they're like, oh, well, when you apply to an R2, I'm like, what the hell's an R2? Well, you know, Carnegie Research 2 designated university. I'm like, and I'm like, when you, oh, Small liberal arts college, when you apply to one of those, you have to change your application and focus and all that. I'm like, what is that? Como se come? Yeah. So, and when you're in grad school, those professors too, at the research one universities, they're under similar pressures to publish, to research and research and research and research. So many of them are bothered when grad students don't know. They're just like, what do you mean you don't know? You should know this. So don't bother me with those questions. But you know, you're so troublesome, you take up so much time. And they complain about office hours. They complain about grad students. They complain about that. And so, and then being a Mexican, you know, like, no, no, no, get more. It's that right. You get into that kind of thing. Yeah. So I didn't know. I didn't know exactly what that meant. I just thought being a professor meant you taught at the university. And that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to teach, right? I wanted to, you know, do that, that kind of good work. And, and I like the theory and I like the ideas and I like to be challenged intellectually. So I thought those two things, okay, I can go read some smart theories and smart stuff and then teach. And, and that's where my heart was. I didn't know the game. I didn't know, you know, you've got to know the top journals in your field. I didn't know, you know, you've got to publish. And now it's even worse, right? Because now, academia, the goalposts are moving way, way out, you know, where you had those old foggy professors a long time ago, they published one or two articles, they get tenure and they, you know, whatever. Now, if you're a grad student and you don't have two or three publications coming out to apply to a job, nobody's looking at your application, right? Yeah. And things are cut through. I would not get a job in this market now, right? If coming out of grad school and that kind of thing. And so things are changing, but, but to quickly answer your question, I had a vague sense of what that was. I knew teaching as part of being a professor. I wanted to be a teacher, but I wanted to be an intellectual as well, right? So I wanted to be a smart teacher. And that's why I went to do a PhD. And I know it involved all these other things. And then I had to have all this other set of knowledge and, you know, understand institutions, the small liberal arts, the research one, the R2, the designated teaching universities. And, you know, you, I kind of learned that all the way, again, bumbling my way through and bumping into a lot of things. Topando, as we say. Well, so the one, another thing, thank you. Thank you for breaking that down for us, because I think, man, we talk about college knowledge, but even it extends into things like grad school. And I know, you know, I mentioned grad school to my students and, and yeah, sort of deer and headlights, right? But then even then to break it down and to say, okay, if I want to be a faculty member, what does that mean? What exactly does that mean? And, and I think to your point, you know, I started out and, and, and I remember starting out the university and, and, and I was a lecturer and, you know, for the longest time, for whatever reason, I don't know what it was, right? But I remember I wasn't even asked about service. In my program, I didn't have to do research. I still did it, but I didn't have to, but I had to do the service. And service to the university, service to the department. But I remember, and then of course the teaching, and it was a heavy teaching load. But I remember nobody asked about that until I was like 10 years in. And so I'm like, what? What, what do you mean service? What does that look like? And so, so yeah, I get what exactly what you're saying and having to, I think to share that, right? So I'm glad that you talked about that because I, I hope that as always, that a lot of this information can help others as they navigate their own journey. You take us to, you're finishing up, you're finishing up your work at USC. And so you're getting ready to start out on this job market. Did you have any help navigating that or was that a continuation of sort of bumping into things on your, as you move forward? Or what was that process like for you? Yeah, you know, I had help. I was starting to get more help. David Lloyd, absolutely. John Carlos Rowe, David Roman, Dereza McKenna, all these faculty members, they helped me and they helped me a lot. David Lloyd and John Rowe put together a mock job for me, right? When I got the, when I got the campus invite to Cal Poly and, you know, John's advice, when I was, I didn't even intend to go on the job market, but this was like 2011, right? So for those who remember 2008, there's a great recession. Obama takes office, massive, massive recession. There are no jobs anywhere. You know, and anyone who knows things about academia and academia becoming a professor, you specialize so much that because you're a specialist and an expert in a pretty narrow field, you know, in a good year, there might be 2025, if there are 30 jobs in your field across the entire country, that we call that a robust kind of market, right? And so, you know, John's advice, when I was, I was still dissertating, I wasn't finished. I wasn't even close to finish. He was like, look, it's a down market. You need this practice. Just go on the job market. I'll look at your materials, I'll write your letter of recommendation. Just go on, just try it out, you know, take a shot because there are no jobs anyway, right? I mean, you know, I think I found 20 jobs that I can apply to. And a great thing about that too is my colleagues, William Marseille, who, you know, he was at the time, he took a job at the University of Texas, Arlington. So he was tenure tracking at UT Arlington. And my other good friend, Ann Marie Perez, who was a Chicana, also in our program, they were years ahead of me, right? But the two of them, you know, because we were going out for the same jobs, at least me and Ann Marie were. And this other cat named Michael Kutcher, who's a Jewish brother, but doing stuff on Emily and Zapata, you know, so me and Michael Kutcher and Ann Marie, we're all going to compete for the same jobs. And in academe, most people, when you're competing for the same jobs, you're not going to share, right? You're not going to share info, you're going to be like, hell no, right? I mean, we'll see you on the job market. It's like that dude first year, you know, it's like, we'll see who wins, you know, and that kind of pillow. Well, because we were committed, me, Mike, and Ann Marie, to Chicana Chicano Studies, we were committed to the justice work that that involves the movement. And because we knew that, we said, you know, we're not going to be that way. And so I put my list of jobs together in an Excel spreadsheet, and I shared it with Mike and Ann Marie, and they put their list and they shared with me. So when we went on the job market, we shared details, you know, and we were like, Hey, did you get a response from this job yet? Did you get a response from that one yet? And so we were helping each other out. And even though we were competing, competing for the same jobs, we were like, look, we're not going to let the university system and academia turn us against each other. And so we supported each other in that way. So the grad students there, they helped me out, you know, these ones. And I had, you know, Mike actually was probably one of the first people my first year to actually recognize me as a human being on campus and talk to me and be like, Hey, man, you know, who are you? Like, what are you up to? Like, they welcome to the department and just welcome me, you know, because Ann Marie and Memo were years ahead of me. I really didn't, I really didn't, I didn't talk to them much, you know, but getting back to the job market, you know, I wasn't ready, but John was the one who was like, look, this will do a practice run. Just go and I'm like, John, I'm not done with my dissertation. You know where it's at. It's not, he's like, I don't care. Just go. And so I was like, okay. So I put all these things together and then I got a couple of good looks, you know, and you sort of learn the system again, right? You're in the dark, bumbling around, and then you go back to your faculty mentors. And in this case, John Rowe, John Carlos Rowe became, he really took me on. And, and he really, I mean, to this day, we're great friends. We talk once every three, four weeks, you know, on the phone, we talk to each other. Like he's really become not just a mentor, but an excellent friend. And so at that moment when I was preparing to go to grad school, John sort of realized, oh, Jose doesn't know these things, right? Well, let's write you this letter. Here's what this should look like. And, and then you just sort of pick it up and you have to move quickly, right? Because you're learning the game. Um, so John was the one who encouraged me to go on the market. And then I get some good looks. And when I get some good looks and I got this, this first round interview, the department kicked in some money, they're like, oh, he's got some traction, right? So they started investing. So the department kicked in 400 bucks to send me to the conference, you know, and a couple other people 400 bucks to, you know, get me to the interview. Um, and then, you know, when I go and they start seeing like, I got a first round interview here, I've got a second round, then I get the campus visit. Then all of a sudden the faculty in the department are like, oh, wait a minute, this is going to be important, right? This is a placement now. It says got some options. And so the department came back to me and they were like, wow, look, you know, this is looking good. Jose, if you don't get it this year, we'll give you a fellowship for next year, right? So I was, you know, on fellowship. So all of a sudden the money's, you know, opportunities are opening up and I'm like, and then because I was a good teacher for the writing program at USC, they offered me a job. And they were like, you're on the job market? I'm like, yeah. And they were like, look, you, I want a teaching award for them, right? So I won the university teaching award for their first year writing program. And they were like, we know you're a talented teacher. Well, we will hire you if you don't get this other job. So I had a job offer from them informally. And then, you know, you get the campus visit. And so for your listeners who don't know, oftentimes, you know, you get 100, 200, when you're in a great recession, I mean, there were like postdocs, they were getting 800 applications for one job, you know, my job wasn't like that. But it wasn't uncommon, you know, to get a couple of hundred applications, 100, 200 applications for just one job. So when you do that, you go through a first round interview. And then there's a, you know, a second round interview and a campus visit. And when you bring folks to a campus visit interview, there's usually only three candidates, right? So even if you got 100 applicants, you beat up 97% of everybody. And you're one of the three, right? So I got a campus interview. I'm not done with my dissertation. I'm freaking out. I'm going to John Rohan. I'm like, what do you want me to do? Like he's like, you will be finished. You're going to be, if you get this job, this is a recession. There are no jobs. If you get this, like this is amazing. We will make sure you finish. I'm like, how am I going to do? He's like, uh-uh, just let me worry about that. You just focus on the job. So, you know, John Carlsrow, David Lloyd, you know, Jody Vallejo, Therese McKenna, those faculty then they started just really kind of prepping me and doing that kind of work. And David Roman as well. So it was, again, I felt bumbling around until sort of later in the career that where they started to invest. And I went, you know, campus visit at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, which is, you know, one of the premier institutions in the CSU. And in 2011, 2012, it was not very diverse. It was really beautiful, really nice. You know, we're like seven miles from the beach. It's 68 degrees all year round, average temperature. Like, you know, I'm not complaining too much, you know. Yeah. It was a culture shock, but that was going on the market, you know. And I wasn't ready. And John and David and others, you know, they were like, look, this is a short dissertation. You're going to owe us. And I'm like, I'll give you whatever you want. Like, you know, I mean, you know, and they're like, you owe us a chapter. And I'm like, okay, cool. And they're like, and that chapter turned that into an article. You know, go get your job, go do your thing. And so they let me finish with a shorter dissertation than I would have liked. But they took it because it was a great recession and now I got a job. Right. And so I was one of the few placements that you're in the English department. And again, that's them being senior scholars, right. And the brilliant that that I didn't understand at the time was that these guys as senior scholars, as the big names that they are and the brilliant people that they are, they didn't let their egos get in the way of a job, which they knew was incredibly rare at the time. And I'm grateful to them for that. So I had, I had help. These are the folks and I named them was that because because I want to give them the credit that they deserve in helping me. I'm grateful to them. So, yeah, we'll say thank you. Thank you for for walking us through that experience and for naming the folks who who helped you who helped you navigate that process. Because I think it's it's so important that we recognize the folks that helped us along the way. And I know my, you know, I wouldn't have finished if not, you know, for my own chair and for my committee, I had an outstanding committee and I'm forever grateful to them. And so I know, I know how valuable they are. And so it sounds like you had a stellar team around you looking out for you and helping you, you know, we'll say as we as we transition out because and I think now this is this is where you're at, right? You've been at San Luis Vismo now. And this is your what year? 13th year. The 10th year. So I say looking back and reflecting on your experience, you know, what what piece of advice? What advice would you want to give somebody and hear let's let's do this because I have a couple of of friends who I know who are on the job market now and are struggling on the job market. What advice would you give somebody who is in that position today? I think the best advice you can give someone on the job market. I mean, and I understand the pressures, right? You're going to apply kind of everywhere because those are the economic conditions. You just want to land a job and provide and, you know, have a good, secure life. But I think, you know, the most practical advice I can offer someone going on the job market is know the institution, right? So if you if you get a first round interview somewhere, be a good researcher and know the institution, right? So know what type of institution it is. Read about the institution. Is it, you know, is it a religious university? Is it a public university? Is it a private university? Know some of its kind of history. Know about the student body. Know about the department, the faculty that are there. Because if you look at the department and you see the faculty that are there, it should give you some sense of where you fit in in terms of being a candidate, right? Is someone retiring? Is is right. So you want to know as much about the university, the student body and the department as you possibly can. And good, good candidates will do that work. Because when you get the questions, right, that you're going to get applying for a professorship, the questions are generally going to be focused on those three areas. Research, teaching and service. So one of the first questions you're going to get, please tell me about your research. You should have a one to two minute answer. This is my research project. This is the intervention that makes this is what it does. This is the journal I have identified to publish, you know, one chapter of this research project, this dissertation. I've identified this journal, reached out to them already. I'm in contact. I'm going to place them, right? So, you know, I would tell them know your institution in that kind of way. So when you get that job interview, do that, right? So if someone is applying to Cal Poly, for example, and they're applying to my department, I tell them, you know, why did you choose Cal Poly? Why do you want to work here? You know, in HR, they're like, you can't ask that question. I'm like, it's too broad. It's where I'm like, no, no, no. The question, like every good teacher knows when you design a test and you have questions on that test, the questions that you write are designed to test for information. Right. If you're a teacher, it's about transferring knowledge. Right. Ideas from me or from the book to the student. Then when you design your test, the test is supposed to do just that. Test for retention of information and knowledge. Did you learn this? How do I know? I'm going to ask the question that's going to prove whether you learn this or not. So on the job market process, when we ask a question like that or fast, you're like, why Cal Poly? That question is designed for me to test whether you know about the institution. Right. Do you know where we are? Do you know that we're part of the CSU system? Do you know that the CSU system is a public university system, primarily a teaching mission? Right. I want you to say something like that. I want you to say, I know Cal Poly is part of the CSU. I know it's a teaching university system. I am committed to teaching. Who are you teaching? Now that requires you to know about the student body. Right. I know Cal Poly student body is predominantly white, that they're predominantly upper class, but I still believe the entire state of California and the CSU is committed to teaching and uplifting the working class. Right. This is what the CSU was designed for. And then once you tell me that answer, that that's why you chose Cal Poly, because it's a public university primarily teaching, you know, the student body. I'm thinking, man, Ganijo, right? Jose knows. Right. He didn't apply here just because he wants any job. He applied to us. Right. And that begins to distinguish you from other candidates. So, but that requires that, that work. Right. And sometimes someone will help you out, figure this out. Many times they won't. But if say you're applying to Mount Holyoke in Massachusetts, you should know something about Mount Holyoke, how it was established. Is it part of the Seven Sisters? You know, what's its mission? What's its right? So you want to let folks know, I'm not just applying anywhere to apply anywhere. I'm applying to you. Right. And you make them feel sort of special in that kind of way. You make them, you teach them that you know about them. That this is intentional. So anyone applying for these jobs and that kind of thing, that would be my first advice. Is know the institution you're applying to know something about it. And then remember all of the questions you're going to get in that interview about the job, research, teaching, service. And if you start to learn about the institution, they ask you a teaching question. You'll say, you know, like one of the best questions I got was, please describe your most difficult teaching moment. Yeah, you got to think about that. Right. And so you did think about it, you describe it. This was a moment I had. It was a difficult teaching moment. I didn't know how to answer this question from this student. You know, and of course, and then you pivot at your institution. Right. I know your body is predominantly women or men or predominantly these folks. I think this situation and learning about this would help me be a better teacher at your institution. But you can only give that answer if you know, right? The institution. Yeah. You've got to know the institution. So do that kind of work moving forward. You know, they don't have to know all of them, but where they get that interview, they got to know that it's tuition. And then the questions are going to be just focused on those three things. Right. I love that. Oh, even service. If I ask you, you know, Jose, if you were to get a job at Cal Poly, how do you imagine doing service here at the university? Right. The best answer from you would be, hey, you know, I know you guys have a Latinx center on campus. I would love to hold office hours at the Latinx center as a way to bridge, you know, the academic side of the house on the student affairs side of that. Right. So that's a good answer. Yeah. I like that answer. I know. Now, right. That's the way you do it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. The only, you got to look, right? What kind of, what kind of orgs, what kind of organizations, what kind of centers, what kind of things happen. And so knowing the institution, knowing these will help you on the job. So that's my advice, right? And that's the way to bridge the cultural capital gaps is to kind of know about the specific institution. Well, I think that's valuable, incredibly valuable information. I know, you know, I know that'll resonate and help out a lot of folks. So thank you. Thank you. We'll say thank you again for your time. Thank you for sharing so many insights, helping us navigate, you know, and walking us through those, you bumbling forward, I think, but in those lessons, I think there's so much that we can take away. So many, so much that I think our listeners will take with them as they navigate their own journey. So I'll say thank you again. I appreciate it. Oh, al contrario. You know, thank you for the work that you're doing. You know, I hope you know this is incredible work. It's important work. And you're making an intervention, right? I was telling my partner about your podcast and I think one of the things that you're able to do with this podcast and your work here is really democratize information. Right. So if I'm just thinking about what we just talked about now, right? If the metaphor for many of us not understanding how to navigate undergrad or grad school is the metaphor of walking into a dark room and bumbling around. Well, now we just made that room a little bit brighter, right? Yeah. So hopefully people don't bump and bruise all the way through. They can navigate just a little bit more and you providing this platform and this work and the podcast I think helps bridge those things. It's illuminating to use the, you know, an appropriate word for that metaphor. So my gratitude to you, Jose, keep it up. You know, this is just another way to teach, I think, and just you have my thanks and my gratitude and my admiration. So gracias. No, thank you. Thank you. That means so much to me. Thank you. This concludes another episode of the Way to College podcast. Thank you to my guests. Thank you to our listeners out there and viewers. And please remember to share the podcast with one other person and appreciate it. And don't forget to like, subscribe, and rate, you know, all of those good things that I think we're so used to today. We'll talk soon. Bye-bye.