STEVE RAMSEY - Gaffer

Hi, and welcome to Season 2 of the Team Deacons podcast, a collection of informal conversations between Roger and James Deacons and a guest. We never know where the conversation will take us, so listen in and see where it goes. This episode is sponsored by Aputure and its new Storm XT52, the industry's most powerful LED point source light. Brighter than a 6K HMI and powered by Aputure's revolutionary Blair light engine, the Storm XT52 is both a tunable white light and also the brightest ever adjustable color LED. Storm XT-52, unrivaled output, only from Aperture. Today we're speaking with a gaffer. His credits are many and include Joker, West Side Story, and Leave the World Behind. We're pleased to welcome Steve Ramsey. Steve, thank you for doing this. Hi, Steve. Thank you. Thank you so much, you guys. So good to see you. This is going to be fun. And we'll start the fun by asking the question, how did you get to where you are today? Were you a kid that noticed when there was a dark corner in a room and liked it? Or did you not even notice that at all and want to become something else and find it later? What's your story? Well, I wasn't expecting the dark corner question. I wasn't either. It just came up. I don't know. Yeah, I probably was afraid of dark corners very early on. but yeah it's nothing to do with like no yeah no I well you know I liked I did like you know art as a kid and I loved drawing and and I grew up at a time where you know when there's you know you'd go places and there there was no iPad at the time to be shoved into my hands or or nearby tv or anything like that so sometimes that was a pad of paper and a pencil and all right have fun so um so so there was that but uh you know in terms of did I know I was going to be a gaffer one day no I had no idea that that was you know that was my future and I had no idea what a gaffer was and most people don't I you know what it's exactly that's so true it's the it's one of the more unfortunate I think crew titles honestly it really is it really doesn't it's so not descriptive It's funny because after I did a bunch of early gaffer credits or jobs where I'd gotten gaffer credit. And my parents still didn't know. I was still young and my parents still didn't really understand me being in the business and what my objectives were and what the business was. And my mother finally saw a movie where I had gotten credited as the chief lighting technician. And my mother saw that movie and she called me and said, Stephen, I saw that movie. I said, what a credit. You know, and I didn't have the heart to tell her. It was like, well, it's, you know, it's kind of the same job that you didn't understand before. But, you know, I'm glad you, I'm glad it made you happy. And that's, you know, that's important. That's very important to me. But it was funny. But did you like movies as a kid? I did. I definitely did. And, you know, I grew up in Rochester, New York, which ironically, which is the home of Kodak. But as kids, my father worked at Kodak for, that was his one in, his first job and his last job. So he came out of World War II and worked there for about 46 plus years straight. And so Kodak was always in our lives, but he was in photo finishing and we were in Rochester. So not only were we not on the West Coast, we were the East Coast, but not the East Coast. It was like the wrong coast of the East Coast. We were off the coast of Lake Ontario. So we were really isolated in a world where we felt totally separate from Hollywood. So we might as well have been a different universe. you know the quick story that could have been oh my dad was at work to kodak and i became a gaffer because i was involved with film production you know and that one thing led to the next it's like there was no quick connection that i was like that was a dead end yeah but we love movies and i i was a child of the 70s so i'm sure you've heard this story plenty of times and i even hate to say it but yes star wars was a big moment in my life and for everybody i know it's just like it's like skip to the next section, right? But honestly, I was seven years old when I was six or seven, or I was probably both six and seven. It was out in the theater for a year and I probably grew up with it over the single release of it. But as a seven-year-old seeing it in its original theatrical release, there was no intellect that I was bringing to it. So it was no chance to repel any of it or question any of it. It just went right through my eyes, right to my heart and soul. And I guess kind of turned the world, I guess, into a bunch of seven-year-olds, for better or for worse. Yeah, right. It's funny, so many people quote Star Wars as being so significant in their lives and careers. I mean, I was on a yacht miles from anywhere at the time Star Wars came out. But also, Star Wars was like a milestone in the evolution of film i mean it was the start of film changing into what we see today it was the start of yeah you know a world that led to avatar frankly right right well and it also they had this science fiction but the robots and everything were dirty everything wasn't pristine yeah yeah yeah so i thought that was kind of yeah that was that was a radical yeah there was no there were no dirty spaceships until that movie came out of scene. Yeah, exactly. But how did you get from loving Star Wars to actually working in film? When you saw the movie, did you think, I want to do this? Or did you think that was a possibility? Or did you just enjoy it? Well, it was a couple of things. I mean, it was the advent of the summer blockbuster. So every year, there was another almost equivalent experience as I grew up. So by the time I was 10, it was Raiders of the Lost Ark. And I was just, when I saw Goonies, I was the same age as the Kids and the Goonies or Stand By Me. It was just, I felt like it was the movies were literally being like every year that, okay, we'll make the movie for seven-year-olds in 1977. Then we'll make a movie for eight-year-olds in 1978. And it just seemed to follow suit. But I was watching more games as I was approaching like teenage years. So it just was uncanny. By the time PG-13 movies came out the year I turned 13. So it just was tailor-made for my age just to get me hooked into it. But also, it was the first time I remember there being behind the scenes and the making of Star Wars and things like this. So it was sort of like, hey, look how they made these movies. And of course, all the special effects and all the... They're so rich with things that you had wondered how they did it. And that was always... Yeah. That's actually really interesting. I never thought of that. The fact that those type of things started to come out makes you think, oh, it is a job. Yeah, it made it feel more accessible. Right, right. It's really interesting. There's a bunch of adults putting this together and figuring out, you know, inventing these things and building spaceships out of model kits and things like this. It's like, it was a lot like things you'd play, you know, it's like I was playing with model kits too. So it's almost like a direct line in that sense. Like, oh, I could, maybe this is something to do. But I mean, I honestly never, you know, at that point I wasn't thinking career at all. So it was just, you know, it was just consuming, you know, consuming and reacting. But my brother was the big, I had three older siblings. I was the youngest. So it was mom and dad and my two sisters were six and eight years older than me. And my brother was 10 years older than me. He was the big movie buff really at the, you know, and then he sort of took me under his wing and I would watch movies with him. And of course, the movies we saw on TV were all the older movies and all the old horror movies and sci-fi and things with monsters and lasers and spaceships. And that was sort of what I, that was the extent of what I could understand at that point. So I would follow in his footsteps a little bit, you know, and watch the thing. He would kind of curate me through things that I was able to watch with him. And he was also watching, he was 10 years older, so he was watching kind of also more grown-up stuff. And I kind of looked up to him and I wanted to sort of get to where he was, but my brain just was not developed enough to understand, you know, elaborate plots and, you know, characters and I had no appreciation for that or I had no understanding of it. It was just too intellectual for me. But he knew all about all the classic movies. He knew Gone with the Wind and Citizen Kane. He knew about these movies. One time I walked in and he was watching a black and white movie. I didn't know what it was at the time, but it turned out it was Casablanca. It was the beginning of Casablanca where they have the map of Casablanca. and they're showing the line being drawn to Casablanca where everybody's sort of trying to escape out of Europe. And I saw the map and I thought to myself, I said, oh, this is just like Raiders of the Lost Ark. I'm going to say something to my brother and I'm going to impress him that I'm now a critical movie viewer now and I'm going to say something intelligent. So I said, oh, I said, Mark, this is just like Raiders of the Lost Ark. And he kind of turned back at me with this look on his face. And he said, no. So he said, Raiders of the Lost Ark is just like this. So he was schooling me in the ways of, you know, the respect, you know, you got to respect your elders and you got to respect your classics, you know, it was the same time. But he knew I was interested in it. And, you know, he bought me the Leonard Maltin guide. I feel like I'm sure people have mentioned that too at some point, you know, it's like the way they learned about movies. And I just wanted to try to train myself as to, you know, how to watch movies and what were good movies. And I would sort of curl up with that book and kind of page through and find four-star movies and put an earmark on the page. And I started to learn directors, reviewed the movie and told you about the movie, but also gave you the director. And if it looked good, it would mention the cinematography. So I started seeing these familiar names and things like Caleb Deschanel and then Vittorio Serrano and all these other kind of frankly kind of beautiful names too. It wasn't just the photographers. It was like, wow, even the name sounds beautiful. So these guys sound like artists. So I started watching better movies and I kind of almost forced myself to, like, I'm just going to watch the Sigmar Bergman movie and see if I can, if I don't like it, then there's something wrong with me. So let me just train myself to appreciate these things. And I had a friend in high school that once my brother went, you know, as we grew up, my brother went off to college and moved out of the house. And I found a friend in high school who I kind of hooked into watching movies occasionally. I said, oh, I recorded this. the ruling class, you know, it's a four-star movie. Let's, let's watch that, you know, Oh, Lucky Man, or, you know, these movies that are kind of abstract and kind of challenging to figure out. And, uh, you know, we watched those together. And so, um, then I take good time for me to go to college and that, you know, this is a point where it's been perfect timing for me to go into film school, but I went into computer science instead because I was. Oh, was it because you thought you'd be more likely to get a job in, in computer science than film? Well, yes, yes. I felt, you know, even though, you know, I was whatever, 16, you know, coming out of high school or 17, I, you know, it's like, I, exactly. I thought, let me, I love movies, but let me just try to be responsible and be respectful to my parents and, you know, and my whole community and sort of follow in the expected footsteps. And, and, and also I kind of, in retrospect, I kind of blame War Games, the movie for getting me into computers because it was so, so sexy, you know, and you were breaking into, you know, changing your grades, hacking into the systems and stuff like that. So that was all very cool. So, and I was into programming. So it wasn't a completely out of left field choice, but quickly figured out that here I was in a class in college and looking around and people were passionate about it. And it was a little bit, you know, a little bit too dry for me, you know, classes like algorithms and data structures and discrete logic. And it was like, there was no game to it. You know, it was all dry for me. And I felt like, okay, this is not a good feeling that I'm not really excited at this moment. So meanwhile, my friend from high school went right into film school. So I thought, well, I got him into it. I got him interested in the first place. Why don't I do that? So I started changing track, started to change my major. And I was at a school that had no arts program. It was Villanova, which was outside of Villanova University, which is outside of Philadelphia. And there was no anybody to even talk to about movies, let alone, you know, everybody was an engineer or a business major or something like that. So, but I did take a film class there and it was the only A plus I got anywhere near an A plus that I got for my two years there. And I felt good. And suddenly I felt like I was the most passionate person in the room and I felt like, this feels good. I'm doing the right thing here. So kind of reinforced that. And, you know, I got what I imagined was a good recommendation letter from my film teacher. And it was funny because she was asking me, OK, which schools, which film schools are you looking at? You know, and I sort of went down the list and I kind of got to NYU at the end. And I said, well, of course, NYU, because it's sort of a legendary school. And that would be, you know, if I got into there, you know, if I got into NYU, I'd have to go there for sure. and she sort of shuddered and sort of said like, well, gosh, you know, I really hate to see kids go to New York City. Wow. Oh, so a real negative. And I knew what she meant because she's looking at me thinking, okay, here's this, you know, this quiet kid who's sheltered and this ex-alter boy from Western New York, who's, you know, is probably going to get chewed up and spat out or corrupted, even worse corrupted by the big city and come to no end, no good end. And I knew exactly what she meant because I felt the same. I felt the same thing. I was like, chances are this could go that way. So that was kind of funny. So that was sort of lingering in my mind, I got to say, as I moved on from there. Did you end up going to NYU? I did. I got it. Despite what she said. I did. And I said, you know what? I just have to go for it. I just got to do it. I got to try. If I fail, at least I'm – this is my B plan, so I have no C plan. I did computer science film, so it's like this better work. Something better come with this. I don't know where it leads. I don't know how I turned it into a – I don't know when I'm going to become a director in this business, but let me – Well, when you got there, did you immediately know this was right? Did it just feel right right away? It did. It did. And part of what was great about NYU was that New York City was the biggest – I think if it was a film school – The evil spot. Yeah, exactly. It smelled, it was dirty in all the right ways. So it was all very inspiring to my kind of sheltered suburban eyes. So it was great. So when you went into NYU, were you thinking of being a director? I'm just curious how you ended up finding that you wanted to do lighting. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, yes, for sure. You know, it's thinking, well, because it was also one of the few roles on the film I understood, you know, or I thought I understood. I thought, well, there's the director and then there's everybody else. And then, you know, then I get, you know, Dale Deschanel or Vittorio Storaro to shoot the thing and I'm good. He had it all planned out. Yeah, exactly. We'll just team up and there it is. But no, so I had no acting background. I had no theater background. So I was sort of, you know, afraid of, a little hesitant to get into that area too much. And I was sort of shy a little bit in that sense. And so I sort of stuck with the technical and, and, and which is fine because I enjoy, like it's going back to all those Star Wars making of behind the scenes specials, you know, it was all the technical stuff is really kind of exciting to me. So of course we were working 16 millimeter film and, you know, with these cameras that were just the ARI-esque camera from, you know, it looked like it fell off of a tank at the end of World War II. It just was unbelievable. I was so surprised at the lack of technology in film. It was just a shocking lack of technology for the longest time, right? And now it's a whole different, it's gone swung the other way so far that it's almost unbelievable in the other direction. But at the time it was fine. So, you know, so I was glad that I had, you know, in retrospect, I've had all the experience, you know, handling film and learning how to use a light meter and all these other, you know, all those other technical things. So did you want to go into camera then? And didn't you work as an AC? When you came out? Yes. If you go deep enough into my IMDb credits, you can find a few. Yeah, there's a few secrets I couldn't quite hide. Delete. Yeah, exactly. Well, again, I was in a naive sort of way. I figured, well, if I want to get into cinematography, and that was what I was excited about. I've got to be near the camera, and I've got to understand how to use the cameras, and how to load the cameras and all this stuff. So my launch was in that direction to start learning more. But, of course, as many people realized, it was very hard to... I figured I'd get a job at a camera rental house. Those jobs were few and far between, and the camera crews were small. And so basically I found an easier access to getting into the lighting world a little bit Because there were more bigger crews and that kind of thing Oh yeah right Yeah Can you describe exactly since nobody knows what the term means what a gaffer does Do this for your mother, okay? Oh, right. Well, I got to tell you one story that's pretty funny. I think that my family came to visit me on set. Not my parents. My parents passed away. But my wife and kids came to visit me and uh my my younger son my two boys and my younger son was about probably 11 or 12 at the time and they're watching you know they're just watching what's going on set and they're seeing me talk to the dp and then i'd walk over and i'd talk to the lighting crew and i'd go back and talk to the dp and go back to talk to the lighting crew and my son was watching this happen and uh my son finally came up to me at one point i said hey dad i really like your job and i said oh that's so sweet of you to say it's like i'm gonna get i'm getting excited it's like oh wow is he passionate about this? You know, he said, yeah. I said, you know, what do you like about it? And he said, he said, well, somebody tells you what to do and then you tell other people what to do. And it was, you know, it's like that fear I envision of what, you know, like it's so simple, but yet that's fundamentally kind of what it is. You know, if you really break it down to its essence, I guess, yes, I am taking one person's ideas and communicating it to other people. Yeah. So, but in a more, in a broader, more descriptive way, yeah, it's, you know, it would be taking, I guess, the cinematographer's objectives and trying to implement those and facilitate and do all the equipment and crew and staffing and all the organization to make sure to pull off the cinematographer and the director's vision. I guess that would be the sort of the more clinical way of explaining it to somebody. And I suppose it depends on the cinematographer and the way that they work, because I know, for instance, Roger likes to plan it all out and with collaboration from the gaffer, but has a very clear idea of where those lights are going. But then other DPs, it seems, want to tell the gaffer, this is the idea that I'm going for, come up with it. Have you found that to be true, that it's two different styles? Very different. It really, yes, it really is. And that's what's, I gotta say, that's one of the fun things about it is because you do get to sort of change speeds. And, you know, either sometimes you do need to assume more responsibility. and other times you're with you both. Roger would give me those very specific plans, which was surprising to me because prior to that, I was used to being the one to make those plans. I remember Mitch Lilly, our dear friend, and he introduced us all. So he was enjoying my first experience working with you. And he saw me get the plans the first time and he kind of laughed. and he said, well, Steve, I guess you don't need to do the plans anymore. And it was kind of an adjustment because I thought, well, you know what? I still need to make my own plans because that's my process. So it's like, I still need to do it for my own process. I still need to do those plans. So it was sort of, but of course I had, I wasn't starting from scratch. And it was, I got to say, it was, you know, prep can be very lonely when you're the only one making plans. So it was nice to have a plan-making partner. oh that's interesting i mean how does sort of prep evolve for you as a gaffer in a general terms and then how does it change from say working with vittorio sterara who eventually you got to work with and yeah which is funny several times you know with janice or somebody you know they must have sort of different processes so what is that sort of formula Well, just going through those two examples, Vittorio, also very specific. He would also give me, if it was a bigger set for sure, he would give me his plan, but his was a little less high-tech than yours in the sense that it was just hand-drawn with all of his lights being hand-drawn, very neatly. and like I'm sure he'd been doing it for years the same way. So he was very, very specific and very specific on the tech scouts as well. He would stand exactly where he wanted the light. And if you were off by even a couple inches, he would, no, that's not where it goes. He would know. Yeah, and I would think, well, that's where you stood. And I said, no, it's got to go over here. And he would point an inch to the left. You know, it's like, oh, okay, well, all right. I guess I was wrong. And isn't he also very concerned with color because everything was so colorful. So does that require lots of filters that you have to think about ahead of time and get on the right light? Oh, yeah. Well, he's yes. Well, we yes, we all know a lot of people have seen his color theory presentation. And actually, the first time I met him was, you know, at his hotel. and he invited me up and we're sitting in his suite and he kind of sat me down and he gave me a front row seat explanation of his color theory. And I thought, I'm getting a private, intimate sort of presentation all of my own. This is like, and I felt bad because to a certain extent, it's like, I've already heard this, because I watched all this. It's like, I've been following him for all these years. But it was great to hear it from him directly and very exciting. But he, so he's very into assigning meaning to the colors. And one thing he did say was because the films that I'd worked with him on were Woody Allen films. And he said, well, you know, for years, Woody Allen's films have been kind of coming out of the Gordon Willis and the very muted tones and the overcast days and things like that. He said that he wasn't sure when Woody first called him if it was right for him, because that's not kind of not the way he saw the world and not the way he saw it. That wasn't the work that necessarily excited his senses. So after reading the scripts, he sort of realized that, okay, well, he thought he had a way of introducing color. He thought the scripts gave him an opportunity to make a case for using color, and that was sort of his road into doing those. And was Woody okay with that? Because, you know, he's so New York, and New York is normally seen as gray, not particularly colorful. I know. I know. So we were, yeah, I think what did he just let him do? I never witnessed the conversation. And I came in on the second job they did together. So I didn't, there was a transitional period on the first film. I wasn't privy to that, but it's funny because we, one of our camera tests, we had Kate Winslet and he has now worked with. And she was standing in and the set was that we were shooting a test and the lights were down and she's standing in place and we'd set up all of Vittorio's. He was using all tungsten light at this time. I mean, now he's switched to LED, but he was using all the tungsten lights. Very powerful, very directional, you know, arrays of power bulbs and things like that. And all his kind of custom lights that he developed over the years with his Italian gaffer. And they were so hot, he would leave them off as much as possible until we got ready to shoot. And then he'd bring them up because otherwise it would just, it would heat up the set. And a lot of the bulbs were also very, had a very short lifespan, which was tricky for us on the electric side. because once they hit their lifespan, they might blow up. So that was a very kind of like, it was very, you know, it's funny because I've had a lot of people since sort of mentioned like, oh, we can use those lights in Pretorius. And I said, you can, but here's one thing that you might want to think about. And it's like they might, you know, sun bulbs occasionally pop, you know, in the middle of a scene and you have to start over. So for both those reasons, he would, he was very judicious about turning them on and turning them off. And everything was run through his dimmer board that we gave him. So he'd have the DIT monitor and then below that he'd have a dimmer board, a console, you know, and he would operate the lights kind of like he was playing an instrument in sort of poetic terms. And I think, so you keep the lights down until he needed them, until we're ready to roll. So, you know, okay, we'd be ready. We'd have tested each of these lights and focused them and things like that. And then he'll bring them all down. And then only when you're ready to roll does he really get the sense of seeing it all together. And so, okay, Vittorio, are you ready to go? okay, yes, I'm ready. And he brings the Grandmaster up and suddenly that gray, dim environment turns into this lush, warm, and this big, strong backlight comes on on the back of Kate Winslet. And her head is like, you know, it's like an aura of light around her. And Susie, who was our costume designer on the job, she was very funny and very cute. Vittorio, she said, oh vittorio you are italian i don't i'm interested when you said earlier that vittorio was very specific about where he wanted the light and it was like inches off it would be wrong but so on a film like wonder wheel was that in prep when you scouted or talked about sets was was it all shot listed was it storyboarded did you know exactly what I mean how do you put a light exactly in one spot and and you can shoot a scene around it if it's a big rig right I mean and did did you pre-light and that whole balance between pre-lighting and storyboarding and then a director that comes in and wants to just be spontaneous right well the funny thing about working with Woody is that he kind of shows up and to a that's the anticipates that the DP is going to kind of present something to him. I think it's a little bit, he doesn't, they don't do a lot of talking and sort of, you know, Vittorio would sort of present an idea and propose, you know, he would say, I have a proposal and he would propose an idea. And then they maybe modify that and then go with it. But, and it's funny, cause you know, I think it was at odds a little bit with the way Vittorio saw working because one of the things that Vittorio is very insistent upon is that he takes exception to the term DP, director of photography. And he says that, well, he said, there's only one director on set. Therefore, I am not the director of photography. I am the cinematographer. So I think it was a little bit, and again, I missed the transitional first time that Woody and Vittorio worked together. But I think that that was probably a surprise for Vittorio that he had to kind of assume a little bit of that responsibility and become a little bit of a DP suddenly in the directing part of that word. But as far as placing lights, specifically thinking of some of the bigger setups where it was more of an architectural, like we'd set up a row of lights to rake the Coney Island Cyclone to look like sunrise. or, you know, so it was, and maybe in some of the broader senses for those big scenes. And then once we got onto the stage, yeah, some of that specific, the really specific inches this way, that way would, would, would be more in relation to kind of hiding lights. And he was very, he was very good at very, very good at hiding very big units, you know, behind very small parts of the set. So I felt the Steadicam operator had his hands pulled, kind of trying to follow these long dialogue scenes with very complicated blocking and also thread the needle and not catch a light hiding around every corner. So it was very tricky. That's why I always liked operating, because I knew where my light was. Exactly, and could avoid it. Is part of your job to, as the idea of what the lighting is going to be, develops to indicate, well, we'll never get this done in time. We need a pre-rig day. And how much pushback do you get sometimes when you're saying we got to have an extra day in here? Yeah, no, that's definitely one of the anxieties of prep. Yeah. is picking your battles, I guess, right? You know, it's like when, you know, and some producers are particularly sensitive to certain types of equipment and certain words like pre-light or weekend work is another one that always gets their attention in a bad way. So, you know, I think, you know, a lot of times I do feel the burden of that does fall upon McGaffer to define some of those. Sometimes the cinematographers make the push and sort of represent that. And sometimes, you know, they've got their hands full, maybe working with a new director, and they're just preoccupied with other things. And you sort of have to meet them halfway and just sort of swoop in to support them and just remind them that, you know, this would be really helpful, I think, for your process if we get this off the plate. But also, as the gaffer, you're thinking logistically, you're thinking, okay, so we've got five of these kind of lights, but seven of those, and we're going to have to rig it over here. So you're the one, even more so than other people, that know how long that takes to do each of those things. And surely the argument has to be at one point, if we do this on the day, you're going to either have a very long day or a very short scene. You know, your choice. Right, right. And then not to mention the anxieties and the effects of those anxieties. the people involved directly with all those factors. So yeah, it's just on the emotional level. It's just like, let's address the emotional level and make sure everybody's, we're going to go in there with a certain comfort in our, or at least knowledge in our heads that at least might succeed. Let's not put ourselves behind the eight ball right away and just dig a hole for ourselves where we have to figure out a complex blocking and rig a whole thing around it. So having an opportunity to work on the Spielberg movies with Janusz is a good, kind of a good example of kind of trying to protect against the possibilities because, you know, Steven is very instinctual about what he's doing. And, you know, you never exactly know what he's going to do. I mean, of course, we've all read the script and sometimes he's on the scout to explain it and and we go in armed with our basic understanding of it but you know it's kind of like what i explained to the sometimes the producers want to have to make like like you're saying make the case for these pre-lights and rigs you know i'd say like well you know think of it this way we have to build a bubble of protection around steven we cannot put him in the corner but we could try it's not going to work you know i mean you can say you can say And nobody's going to say, well, Stephen, we really kind of have to keep this into tight coverage. We can't really go wide on it. It's like nobody's going to. So everybody's there to enable him to be the director that he's always been to us since we've been watching his movies. But in a way, though, surely the producers working with him know that. So you know that this is the way that he works. So know that this is going to come up. and you're going to be, don't they? You would think. They do. And I think, but they, you know, of course they've got the studio talking in their other ear and, you know, and they've, so they're sort of in a little bit of a vice grip of trying to reconcile and sort of mediate. And sometimes they, and they're also comparing it to, you know, well, here's another big movie. How come this is such a different, you know, like especially if they're producers that are maybe new to the, you know, to that family. Yeah, exactly. And they're coming off of, you know, well, this is a $100 million movie and they operated differently. And it's like, well, because it's a different process. It's just, you know, if he's inspired by something on the day and he sees something, he's not going to limit himself. Right. If he finds a good way to tell the story, A, why would you want to talk him out of that? And then B, you know, you couldn't if you wanted to. but then but then as part of your job when you hear what janish or the dp wants to do in a case like that as part of your job thinking well if we didn't do it quite this way but did it this way it's more movable if things change i mean is that going through your mind constantly make it as flexible as possible yeah definitely um you know and that's i think that's part of that sort of bubble of protection kind of like idea is that you're you're protecting them not only in allowing them to look 360 but you're also making sure that you're not in the way of you're not going to put a massive immovable object you know within that sphere of of protection you know it's like so you you have to be able to kind of get out of the way and you know it funny steven is he It moves so fast and those sets are such a high energy kind of they exhilarating but they very high energy and very active and you moving things around and you relighting from shot to shot to a degree that is almost kind of in a classical way You know, it's like you're not just setting a source and everybody gravitates around it. You're sort of maintaining, you know, I mean, it's different from movie to movie, but I'm thinking kind of West Side Story, for example. It was, you know, they went from one kind of classical looking kind of lighting composition within a single shot to another classical lighting composition. You know, it wasn't, didn't get, you know, too front lit. Well, there was a certain amount of front lighting, you know, that was really kind of like hearkening back to the older, you know, the older classical films. But for example, when we were doing the dance at the gym, and there's a big introductory shot that takes the characters down a hallway and then through the doors that open into a gym. And then it's a steadicam move that stitches into a cable cam that then rises up, goes over the dancers, goes to the other side of the gym, descends back down, and then stitches back into a third camera, which is another steadicam. obviously we knew that the cable camera was there and we knew that that was going to be the shot but but we didn't know exactly what that shot was going to necessarily see and there was a lot of you know kind of negotiations about you know how to how to rig for that shot and also how to set that you could photograph you know and and so you know because a lot of people's solution to that would be just light it so you can shoot 360 with flat light it yeah yeah flat light with no molding no nothing but so right i don't think people realize that that's the easy way but then there is oftentimes you're absolutely not trying to do that and how hard it is and yet you could be be making it so much easier but you can't if you're gonna do that right yeah exactly and this was and this was not contemporary movie and you know it wasn't yeah it's funny because we we did uh the one day we had to it was a book actually a pre-light and uh a dance rehearsal and of course the dance rehearsal wore on and on and on and i'm watching the time you know i'm watching the time now and saying like this is okay now at this point you know how much time do i have to focus each one of these lights you know it's like it's getting down to like okay i'm under i'm at the two minute you know part you know mark where if we gotta focus yeah right of these you know 100 something lights in in two minutes a piece or else we're not gonna you know feel the prelight yeah yeah but uh you know we wanted we wanted to look classical so you know when that camera's on one side of the gym all the backlights are on and you know and it's looking classically backlit and and then when that camera goes up and over the audience then we're doing a crossfade then looking the other direction to have the other backlights come up on a dimmer. One slide goes down, one slide comes up. So that's something that, you know, with Steven, you have to be ready for those kinds of dynamic changes, you know, because, you know, when we were doing, it's funny, at the beginning when we were doing the dance for her, so we just had, we were kind of keeping lights kind of low, you know, so it didn't heat up for the dancers. And so we had a bunch of LED space lights because most of our other lights were actually old school tungsten lights, which is a whole other reason for that. But, you know, we just had the space lights on and it kind of looked kind of contemporary in a way because it was just like what you were saying was like just top lit and kind of beautiful in its own way. But funny because Janusz came in, he said, he said, oh, Stevie, this looks so beautiful, but Stephen will never let us do it. so he said see what he'll nevertheless do because you know we were locked into this aesthetic that was it had to be that glamorous old movie lighting yeah but that's great that they were conscious of the aesthetic and they wanted to maintain it that's good Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one of the first scouts, it wasn't even a tech scout. It was one of the first, I think, scouts that anybody went on on One Side Story. And I was lucky to be there, just to be a part of it. And, you know, there was only a handful of us there. It was me, Janusz, Stephen, you know, maybe the production zone, maybe not even, and location person in ED. And Stephen was up in Harlem and looking at a street that was going to be potentially one of the streets they used for the song America, where Anita and her two friends are walking down the street towards camera, and the camera's sort of tracking back, and they're singing. And Stephen said, he's got his hands up, and he's making the frame, and he's walking backwards. Like, okay, so be honest, they'll be walking towards us this way, and we'll be tracking back, and I want this to be lit. and Janusz said yeah yes Stephen yes it will it will definitely be lit and uh and Stephen said no no I mean I want to see arcs in their eyes you know I want to see arc lights in their eyes and Janusz said yeah yeah I said okay all right Stephen yes we will do it when there will be arcs but yes we'll have lights so but but you know I was very happy that to be there and hear that because we're all wondering you know none of us have made musicals before and you know are you going to be faithful to the original in some way or are we trying to modernize it you know it's like so what direction so that just that just overhearing him say that sort of right there explained our approach you know it was it was it really told us that you know we were going to make it elevate it to a point where it was an expressionistic sort of you know old more theatrical kind of reminiscent of that kind of photography and which you know which for me it was like okay Well, not only have I not done a musical, but I don't know if I've done that kind of lighting either. Yeah. Do you ever work from other visual references, whether it be like photographs or from past movies or something? Do you ever sit and watch an old movie and say, this is the kind of way we want to go? Whether somebody, you know, whether it's the cinematographer or the director, or who, you know, somebody else is providing that information, of course, then I'll, you know, of course, I'll watch it. And then, you know, if they don't, then I'll probably take it upon myself to kind of get my head, you know, kind of wrapped around it, just so I can kind of, you know, begin to think about how we would go about doing that. So yeah, I definitely, West Side Story, I didn't go back and watch the original, because I figured, oh, that's going to be too much, too on the nose for, you know, it's like, let's, clearly we're not trying to replicate it. We're just trying to, you know, honor it in some way. So I did, you know, I watched American in Paris and I watched a few other things and I watched some more modern, you know, I watched The Greatest Showman just to see, okay, what are modern musicals doing? And we had this whole conversation too about, you know, like I think Janis had watched Chicago and he was kind of getting a little bit, you know, starting to question the idea of like, do we need a lighting designer to come on board? Is this, are we going to be, are we going to go into this theatrical direction? And West Side Story was mostly shot really on, mostly on location, which was sort of one of the biggest distinctions between it and the original was that, you know, this was actually, that was one of the kind of the fun things about it was we actually got out on the streets and we weren't sort of studio bound as much. So, um, well, I had another question cause it seems like it would have been similar problems of hiding the lights and everything is leave the world behind because there are some shots we were watching it the other day and there are some shots where you're go in one way and then the camera comes yeah it's a real roving camera and it seems it's frankly to the point of distraction it's a roving camera but it must be quite a challenge when you have something like that again was that storybook yeah how do you plan that well that yes that one was very planned and the director was very very much you know he was extremely focused okay you know it's funny because each project different people are focused on different things and they have different priorities and you know some are more performance and some are more visual and you know and uh on that one the director was very focused on executing these camera moves and he was just that was a that was a priority that was you know the style and you know it's the fun thing about working all these different jobs it's like this suddenly we're we're having to turn this set into because we built we had a location house that the real house and then we built a replica of the kind of the at least the most of the first floor plus the some of the patio and the pool out and back on a stage yeah so ah so we could perform some of these these moves you know with cameras going through walls and through floors and you know through cabinets and and it had to be very modular the ceiling had to go up but the ceiling had a maybe a chandelier on it so well well the camera is going above the chandelier but below the ceiling okay well that means the ceiling will go up and then the chandelier will have to individually then drop. So it was kind of a, it was a child's place that you had to sort of, everything had to be movable, but yet independent also. So a lot of moving pieces that we had to track. And it's also kind of different than when you were working with Stephen. Yes, things had to be movable, but you didn't know where or why, because you weren't sure exactly where that bubble would go, you know, on the day. But this one, at least you came in each day knowing, supposedly, unless things changed, where that camera was going. So that's a really different experience. Yeah, it was a different experience. And because those cameras were so precious to the director, we made sure that we knew how we were going to implement those things. And the grips did a great job and construction did an amazing job of making all these sets sort of break apart into pieces and come back to the other. And another thing, do you think about putting practicals when you're building a set? Well, I guess you were working from a real house. I got to say, yeah, the interesting thing between like working on the films you've done with the Anish, like Bridges, Spies or West Side Story, or working on this film we're talking about, Leave the World Behind. then you go to working with Larry Sher on Joker. I mean, Joker seemed much more a practical job. Like you built the light into the sets or the night exteriors. It seemed to me the way it looked anyway. You didn't use the kind of huge lighting rigs that you had on, say, Bridges Spies. Yes, it was much more practical, light-driven for sure. And Larry has a, you know, he's kind of boiled it down very succinctly for the set decorators and the set dressers. And what he repeats over and over is it's form and function. Those are a great combination of words to explain what we're looking for. You can get something that looks good on camera, but it's got to, if you've got a couple of people around a counter and you've got a lamp hanging between them and that lamp is supposed to be lighting them, but it doesn't do anything for them, well, that's a problem. That's going to upset the whole flavor of our lighting approach If we suddenly have a scene that looks like we're doing this highly realistic thing, suddenly it looks like we're doing a scene out of, you know, like the sting or something, you know, where it looks like, you know, artificial. Yeah. So does that change the way, though, that you look at the lighting? Because you're thinking, okay, if we're trying to use practicals, oh, what if we put a lamp over there? Because then it would bring light from this point of the room. Do you start thinking that way? Yeah, for sure. To suggest things like that. And you give yourself probably more practicals than you'd ever need. Just so you have, you can always turn, you can always get rid of it or turn it off or, you know, something. Yeah. So it's, you know, you don't want to get into a, you know, it's like, that's always the danger of starting with a day scene in a set and maybe not leaning on the practicals for the day scene. Then, okay, now let's go to the night scene. And, oh, we really could have used a lamp here. I mean, we had all that sun streaming through the window, but now I wish we had a lamp. that was established in that spot, you know, yesterday. So it's tricky. So yeah, you have to, but that's part of, that's what we do. We look out for those things. We worry constantly for a reason. So we don't have those kinds of mistakes. Yeah. And with practicals, you're also determining what kind of bulbs are going in there because some bulbs are brighter than others. So sometimes you don't want that practical to be really bright and sometimes you do, right? So you have to go through them and see what bulbs they take. Yeah, no, for sure. And, you know, of course, these days, you know, half the lights come in and they're LEDs. And, you know, and that's become a kind of, you know, you know, I don't want to say a problem, but it's, you know, let's call it a challenge because we're trying to solve it. You know, we're not going to live with the problem. We're going to try to solve this challenge. And that challenge being, you know, kind of bringing the electric, you know, the lighting department and the set decorating departments closer together where, you know, there's in fact so close that we need to overlap now. So that's the thing. We really can't have one acting, you know, independently of the other and just presenting these things at the last minute or on the day of the shoot that we haven't seen. Because we need to, you know, make sure that we need to get this in front of the camera. If we need to live with what's in there for any reason, we need to make sure that there's no issues with it. And, you know, some people are sensitive to the color of these things. And when they pick them and sometimes they're not, they show up and it's like you've got this warm candlelit scene and you get presented with LED lights that are cool and blue in the middle of the table. And they say, oh, can you use these? And it's like, well, no, actually, no. Not really. Yeah. Yeah. Or also they have a light and the shades are on it. They bring it in and a shade makes it all yellow, but you don't want it yellow. It's a daylit and whatever. So all of those things, because they're looking at it from a design point, not necessarily what the light is for it. When I first got to know Roger and we had our house and I tried to buy a lamp, I learned that quickly. It really matters the kind of light that's coming out. But I'm actually really interested in how that whole change in technology, like, I mean, I started off with, I mean, I use Brutarchs. I'm not much, but that was like the last day, the last days of using Brutarchs, you know, as a regular lamp. And now it's LEDs and you've got such a variety of LEDs. I mean, you go to the trade shows and it's like you're overwhelmed with a different manufacturers, all with a different approach and a different sort of lighting technology. But how's that changed your job over the years? It's funny because sometimes, you know, just talking from the standpoint of what's presented from, you know, the set decorator and the set dressers and the art department, sometimes they'll build, you know, like we were doing a job with Larry. called The Bride, which is coming out soon, and set in the 30s, and clearly pre-LED. So there was a lot of... They were designing a lot of signs. And in addition to being LED, the newness that didn't exist back in the day, they're also... I think this is part of where we need to have these departments talking and working together more closely. They're very expensive. You know, LEDs, that technology is very expensive. And it's, you know, and sometimes they'll design things like, oh, you know, LED as per electrics on the design drawings. They'll design something that's very, very shallow where only an LED can, you know, you need something that's as thin as an LED ribbon to be able to do the job. And, you know, meanwhile, we're on this job when they're trying to say from the beginning, we don't have a lot of money. So you've got to be as efficient as possible. So I started thinking like, well, can we, let's, how about this? Let's stop designing LED fixtures, you know, LED fixtures that necessitate LEDs, especially when we're representing a time that didn't have LED. So, you know, let's just, let's go with this time period. And, you know, maybe we're putting bulbs, you know, into these things. And maybe that's part of the charm. It's a sign where you see a little bit of a hot spot and a little bit of a shadow. And maybe that adds to the, in addition to saving money and, you know, and allowing us to use that money for more important things, you know, that sign in the background now, instead of being a $500 to $1,000 worth of LED install with controller and the whole thing and into a data network, let's, you know, maybe it's just six bulbs, you know, in a thing and it feels more antique and, you know, it's in the background and it's tungsten and it fits into the technology of the day. and it helps us all the way around So things like that sometimes sometimes that the way to go I remember again a couple of things really I was flummoxed when on I think it was Skyfall I came into a set we were pre-lighting and the dimmer operator was standing in the middle of the set on his iPhone, as I thought he was on his iPhone making a call or texting, but he actually wasn't he was adjusting the lights and I thought in that situation it was quite a complex rig so I thought that's great but then on the opposite side of that I was in a shooting in a tiny little room with like four or five little practicals that I just thought would you know it was all tungsten bulbs and we would just put little squeeze dimmers on the floor or hide them on the floor but oh no they were all on a you know all back to a desk and i thought some sometimes do you find it it's like sometimes it's like overthink you're the way you're talking about doing a job where it's like you use practical lights in the old school and you just you know i mean it used to work but now things seem to have got so complicated you know and going back to the same job the bride we had a location that was in Staten Island and it was, and it was Snug Harbor, which is sort of a collection of historic buildings. And, you know, and it kind of knew where we were going to be shooting, but it was a little, again, it was like this sort of this bubble of protection, you know, mentality of like, well, let's, let's make sure that we can, we can swing the camera around and, you know, cause there was some action and things like this. And again, you know, confronted with the situation where we didn't, you know, we knew we had to cut costs somewhere. And so, so I, you know, so I said, Valeria. So, well, maybe this location, you know, maybe this is a location where, again, we're in the thirties or we're dealing with all kind of warm tungsten sources. There's not, there's no pretty uniform in that sense. And I said, well, maybe we just go into this one, instead of laying in this massive data network for the interiors and exteriors and, and go through all this, you know, laying this gigantic infrastructure. What if we just, what if we go tungsten all the way and we just get 20 variacs and squeezers and whatever. And we'll just put this old zip light in a window well and we'll put that in. And if things dim down, that's okay because it's all sort of fits into this sort of warm aesthetic. And he said, yeah, you know what? That'd be great. Let's do that. And he's like-minded in that sense that he kind of... Also, it's kind of fun to break out of this, let's change gears. Let's not just go on this preconceived idea that everything has to be LED. Let's just be open to some flexibility. And the funniest thing about that was all the young technicians that we had as additionals had never seen a variate before. Wow. Wow. Isn't that funny? That's a problem. You know, so, so the first, and I, and I saw it coming. It's like, okay, I see, I see, I know what's going to happen here. So as soon as they called us in, I said, okay, guys, everybody over here, we're going to have a quick five minute lesson on how to use Variax. So we, you know, I said, just make sure we get to get a couple of different kinds so we can show them all the little intricacies. And of course they, you know, they overvolted a couple of bulbs and I said, that's okay. That's why I remember we talked about that. That's, you know, so it was, it was, it was a funny, it was a good, like sort of retro lesson. It was like learning how to drive a stick shift or something like that. Yeah, right. Do people still use gels? Yeah. On the last job we did, I was working with Don Burgess, who I know you had as a guest. Oh, right. We had to do a scene where it was a setting sun, like an exterior. We were at an intersection, that kind of thing. and so you know don said oh we can get you know an 18k and put some you know heavy you know put some full flow on it and i said i said or we could get a 24 light dino with some narrow bulbs i'm thinking a little bit like you know this is what you know like again it's like going through this you know like our catalog of experiences i'm thinking well it worked for vittorio pretty well that could be that could be a fun thing to you know try so he you know he said oh yeah we can do that you know and he you know he fortunately he's seasoned enough to remember all those lights and he's used all the lights. So that wasn't, I was introducing something he was completely unfamiliar with. So, but it was funny, even, you know, and I figured, you know, nobody's going to complain about what this costs because the rental house is probably going to, if anything, send a thank you note for, you know, having, sending this out on a job because that's something they don't have to, they don't, yeah. Yeah, right. It's funny, it's exactly what Don said. He said, oh, what did they, you know, he was kind of giving me a hard time about it, you know, kind of just jokingly saying like, oh, what did they have to dust that off for you? It's like, give us something you want. I thought we were going to be the champions of this thing. I thought, yeah, I thought you'd be on my side here a little bit more. But, you know, he was just giving me a hard time. But it was funny. But no, we still, you know, the gels come out. Occasionally the gels have to come out. And, you know, sometimes trying to mix these LED emitters on different brands of lights to get the same color is so tricky. Sometimes you just have to, you know, you just have to set them all for 32. which is, you know, the broad spectrum emitter, you know, which I've, you know, learned over, you know, all these years as we, as the LEDs have, you know, we sort of, they started making LEDs before we understood how to use them. So it's funny how we're kind of, even the manufacturers are kind of catching up saying, yeah, we didn't really know what we were doing back then, but now we've kind of figured it out. So, but you set them all for 32 and that's the, that's, you know, their, their best rendering kind of, you know, color. And then, you know, in terms of making them all uniform and then you can add the color to those and then suddenly it's like okay this now they're matching you know whereas if i tried to you know do the the mix of all the crazy different emitters that you know some of they all have different packages of emitters and colors and things like that it's just it's it doesn't always line up and it can be nerve-wracking and yeah i wanted to ask you have you ever had the experience and you don't have to name names but where the directors come up to you, the gaffer, to tell you something and isn't going through the DP necessarily. And I think that you think your job is to do what the DP wants. So what do you do in that kind of situation? I mean, not too much. I'm thinking if, you know, I can't even think of a specific situation, but I think if, you know, I always take that as, and usually they're not trying to sidestep the cinematographer, you know, or sneak something in. I think usually, you know, they might, the convenience of I'm standing there might be a case where they would mention it to me. And I think, you know, in that kind of situation, I would sort of say, you know, I would listen to what they're saying and say, sure, it's possible probably. And then I would, you know, maybe the DP's in the restroom and then they come back to set and I'll say, you know, oh, by the way, you know, they so-and-so mentioned that they wanted to try this. So we're starting to work on that, but let me know if you want to do something different or modified, just to include them. So I wouldn't operate autonomous. I wouldn't go rogue on somebody, I don't think, in that situation. Or hopefully not, because I'm there to support them. I mean, first and foremost, I'm there to support the cinematographer and not create confusion in the line of communication. Well, there's a reason that there are lines of communication. And it's funny because when you start a job, oftentimes you realize you're with a bunch of people that don't realize that and that will go to an individual and give pertinent information that actually needs to go to a number of departments. And being on jobs like that, you just generally, the crew learns to check in with each other every day and say, what have you heard oh there's a new scene oh good to know they're afraid to give out false information so then you end up on the other side of the the flip side where you're getting lack of information so it's like well you know i know you didn't want to tell any of the wrong thing right you know i wish you'd told me something about what it might be you know it's like it's like i'm less likely to bite your head off you know i'm not going to bite your head off at all but usually but you know i would be less likely to if i you know if you just kind of gave me a hint of what was you know was possible, I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't come back and say, well, you said it was a 50% chance and it was only a 30% chance, you know. I was on a movie as a script supervisor and spent two weeks with the director and the actors and they were rewriting the scripts constantly. So every day at the end of the day, I would call the prop department, the art department, all that. Listen, it's not official yet, but you might need to find a cherry red convertible, you know, that kind of thing that's you need the time to find you just give them a heads up so they can source it and maybe not buy it but have you ever had the situation i remember dick push telling me about he was shooting tommy with ken russell and he'd done this sort of pre-light of this church or cathedral and it was all shot for one direction and that was all supposed to be just this one shot and uh ken came in the next day of the day of the shoot and looked at it and decided to shoot in absolutely the reverse direction with all all dick's lights in shot have you ever had that oh yeah well it's funny you know like did you like dick bush though leave the lights in shot whoever the cinematographer was dick bush just lefty i don't think i've done that i don't think done that. But yeah, definitely, you know, it's funny. I could think of it on, you know, like on Bridge of Spies, Steven Spielberg is, you know, a lot of, you know, he's got so many irons and so many fires that, you know, a lot of the time he's not on Tech Scouts. And I actually didn't even meet him until the first day of shooting, which is also coincidentally the first day I met Mitch Lillian because Mitch Lillian was coming off of another job. So, you know, so So I mentioned Steven Spielberg the same morning. All right. Oh, well, lucky you didn't meet Mitch. But because of that, there were times where Steven had, you know, maybe he'd been shown the locations in some form, but it wasn't that familiar. So I remember we were walking out of one to one of the sort of alleyways where, you know, for one of the scenes where Tom Hanks is being followed through the rain. and we were company, you know, company moving from another place. And so we were kind of arriving and Stephen, of course, got there early and we kind of, you know, were coming up behind him. And Stephen was looking down the alley the other way, you know, we'd rigged it one direction and it was a, you know, period film. So we kind of felt like we were kind of safe, you know, but, you know, it was night and things like that. And, you know, Stephen sees something, you know, he's, Oh no. He wants it, you know, because, yeah. So, you know, so Janusz was running up behind us. No, Stephen, it's this way. It's like, no, Stephen, it's over here. You know, kind of like, like he wasn't going to go over there to be seen against that bracket. I was like, no, you know, we're like, we're planting our feet where, you know, you're going to have to talk to us. You're going to have to look around and talk to us this direction. So, but yeah, right. You know, there's, yeah, for certainly with, with Stephen, there's, there's, it's happened. And it's, it's funny when it does happen because, you know, we do, we do go through a lot of plans to, to sort of get things in place for, you know, to make sure that God forbid he comes in and we're looking in the direction he said he would look in and we're not ready. So it's like we have no choice but to prepare that view and prioritize that A direction. But, yeah, sometimes he comes in and he's so focused on, well, of course, the storytelling, you know. And he's so, you know, he's got certain priorities, you know, what he's trying to get and the information he's trying to convey in a scene. And if certain elements aren't right, if those elements aren't the important elements, then he really doesn't, you know, he's willing to look past that. Like that doesn't bother him, you know, to have those things. Of course, he has, you know, there's enough budget where, you know, on post that can kind of, it can help out too. But it's, he's very good at kind of, in a way, ignoring some of those things that in the end, but don't maybe matter. You know, it's like, he's so good at directing the viewer's eye that you're watching the scene and there might be, you know, there might be even equipment in the shot. And, you know, it's, you know, but, you know, we're watching the film for the first time thinking, oh no, here's the part where we thought we might've left that light and that, you know, they're going to catch it. And by the time, you're watching the scene and it's like, you realize that, you know, you're onto the next scene. It's like, I forgot to look, even the look, you know, I was just thinking about, you know, it was just one scene before I was ready to look for it. And then suddenly I was so into the story that I didn't, I forgot to even check. You know, it's remarkable that you can do that. Yeah. Yeah. But, okay, so somebody starting out wants to get into film and into lighting and being a gaffer. What would, I mean, it sounded like, it sounds like your training in computer science actually came very invaluable in the world you were in today. Yeah, I, you know, it's, you know, like, as you know, the business has changed so much. And what it meant to work with a truckload of tungsten lights to now having a truckload of computer networking equipment is, it's so different. I was joking, I don't know if it was with, with even, but maybe with Mitch and saying, you know, it's like you took a, it's like you took a soccer team, you know, and said, you know, last year, last season and said, okay, next season, you're going to be a hockey team. You know, it's like you have to, you know, same basic objectives. You're trying to get the thing in the net, but, you know, but now you're going to have to do it with skates. And, you know, it's like a whole new skill set that's completely separate from where we started. Mind you, my soccer team, Manchester United, might be better off playing hockey right now. Anyway, there always has to be a comment on us. So you think somebody starting out really kind of needs to know more about these sort of systems? Yeah, I think it's a huge advantage for people starting out. And I actually have been, last three or four years, I've started teaching this lighting workshop up in Maine, near Rockport, Maine. It used to be Maine Photographic Workshops. Now it's called Maine Media. And it's been around for 50 years, you know, 50 plus years. Yeah. Forever. Yeah. I actually found out past year, I was looking at some of the photos and things they had on the wall and I was like, oh, here's a picture of Conrad Hall. And it said, Conrad Hall, you know, they said, oh yeah, Conrad Hall taught the first lighting class at the school. I thought, oh, that's, you know, okay, good. I mean, pretty good company. Yeah, I know it. I know it. Good company to be in. But, you know, I tell the students, you know, like, you know, some of them are young, some of them aren't, you know, it's a diverse group of people that come to the class and that's great. But I kind of talked to the young ones. I said, you guys are really at a huge advantage here because they see me teaching the class and even I'm learning the lights because there's lights that they try to get the newest lights and there's lights that I'm seeing for the first time. So I said, you see me trying to learn this. I'm teaching the class and I've never even touched this light before. So that's like, that's, you know, you're only, you know, or I'm using the app on the iPad to control the lights, you know, in the class using the Blackout app, which is a great little dimmer console for the iPad. One year I was doing it and there was a brand new update to the software. I said, excuse me, guys. I said, but this update just came out last week. So I'm, there's a little hiccup here. It's because I'm literally, I'm just learning this thing, which puts me maybe only a week ahead of you guys, and you guys have never seen this before. So it's like, you know, it's a good opportunity. I think it's a good time for young people. That's encouraging. Thank you. Well, thank you for this. This has been great. Thank you so much. So interesting. I really appreciate it. Yeah. If you'd like to sponsor the Team Deacons podcast, let us know at pod at team deacons.com. Thanks for listening. If you want more information and further discussion, check out the forums at www.rogerdeacons.com. Becoming a member is free, and you can ask follow-up questions there. And be sure to subscribe to the podcast for more new questions and topics. Also, check us out on Instagram at team.deacons. See you next time.