397 – Rebel, Rebel

Hello, this is Jack Wilson, the host of the History of Literature podcast. For the past 10 years, I've been talking to novelists, biographers, and scholars about the greatest books in the history of the world and the men and women who wrote them, like our recent episodes on Dante and Love, a starter pack of 10 Indian classics, the pop culture that influenced Sylvia Plath, and a talk with scientist and novelist Alan Lightman about the wonders of nature. Join us at the History of Literature podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 397 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where I have a strange belief that the old should be treated kindly and with courtesy. that's not self-serving in any way is it alan are you calling me old james you start with the old jokes already i think you are but anyway well you know i could use a little kindness and courtesy it's true it's true we all we all could these days i think but especially you oh nice folks pull up a bench in the common room and join us i'm james tower the sage of the south and i'm here with the man of the west whose beard is neither ruly nor soft alan sister it's also not five feet long without stretching thank goodness floor dragging beards that's true and i don't think you have 17 sons oh heavens if i do i don't know about them yeah folks join us as we journey to an unknown land and an unclear time in the second age as we begin our four-part look at one of the more unique stories that tolkien wrote the story of tal elmar in many ways it's a fitting follow-up to aldarian and arendis because even though it's almost certainly taking place much later. Oh, much, yeah. Now's a great time to jump in. I think so. As we'll discuss in more detail why there's that relevance there. But folks, no matter whether you came to Middle Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony podcast continues in our 10th season of reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations. Not to mention a few puns and bad jokes here and there. Maybe a few more now that you're with me again. Especially the bad ones. But our purpose, of course, is to dive deep into the lore. In this case, very deep. I mean, Tal Omar is the deepest cut that we've tackled on the show so far. We love discussing the stories, our favorite characters and themes, Tolkien's inspirations, and a whole lot more. And while we take the work seriously, the same can't be said about ourselves, as you can tell. with just a couple of friends chatting at the pub and we're glad you've joined us. And I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time to visit with one of our listeners in The North Wing. Well, today we're bringing you another new installment of The North Wing. Barlim and Butterbur had a room or two in The North Wing at the Prancing Pony Inn made special for Hobbits. and this is our place made special for some of our listeners to give us a chance to get to know them. Now, rooms at the North Wing are a little hard to come by these days, so only our patrons at the Elrond's Honorarium and Kyrdhan's Contribution Tiers are eligible. So if you'd like to be one of the next patrons to join us here, be sure to check out patreon.com slash prancingponypod. Please do. We've got a waiting list for the North Wing right now, but we'll get to them all soon, and we'll make room for more if necessary. Well then, why don't we go ahead and welcome tonight's guest to the North Wing, Joe Hanfman. Thank you, Alan. Joe, it's a pleasure to have you. I'm glad you could be with us today. And thanks for your patience. I know that we have been sort of renovating the North Wing, so there have been some awfully long waits. I got a good room in there, not one of the ones destroyed. That's true. The bolsters are all intact. They are. Parliament will be happy. I'm glad to hear that, as long as it doesn't have any mail for you. right excellent okay joe so tell us a bit about yourself where are you from what do you do what do your loved ones think of all this talking stuff that you're into do they think you're a total nerd do they like it that sort of thing okay well um i'm a retired industrial engineer at 35 years wow that and now i basically i i do a lot of birding and um travel all around the country and a few other countries too. I guess I've birded in about 29 different countries. Wow. And then my wife and I do a lot of traveling too, non-birding, but I'm always carrying my binoculars so you can always recognize me. Family is very supportive of it. My son, Jason, he went with me to all of the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit movies. My wife puts up with it. She gets a little bit confused with the names, especially first aid elf names. Oh, goodness. All the Fs, yes. Or the Cs that are not real nice. That's true. Caligorum, Cudorfin, those guys, yeah. Yes. My goodness. Well, that's amazing, by the way. Have you spotted any Crabine from Dunland in particular when you were in your birding adventures? No? No, I haven't. All right. We'll keep your eye out. The question that we ask everybody, Joe, who comes to The Prancing Pony, when and how did you first discover Tolkien's works? And what was your experience like? What is it that keeps you coming back? Well, it started in the early 1970s. I had a college professor who he had mentioned how he read the books every year. And I had read them once and read them again. And I had a friend who had read them. At the time, we were working at a book distributor loading trucks of paperback books. And we would quiz each other. These were very basic quizzes just on the Lord of the Rings. Because there were things in there that I had no clue on because the Silmarillion hadn't been published yet. Right. Like you said, early 70s. So that gives us the setting. Yes. So what is it that keeps you coming back then to Tolkien? The depth of it. Every time you read it or listen to it, you learn something else. And there's so much in there. I mean, the different languages, it's hard to believe how deep the history goes and how long for tens of thousands of years. And you think of it compared to our history. Our history is short than what we know compared to what Tolkien created. That is true. I guess suppose if we had certainly longeval, let's say, Egyptians, right, who could tell us all about what happened thousands of years ago. But yeah, it certainly is an incredibly deep world, no doubt about that. So what's your favorite book in the legendarium? And if you have one, your favorite non-legendarium work by Tolkien. Okay, I'm going to go with book two of The Lord of the Rings. All the textual ruins that are in there with the Council of Elrod, the elf friends that were mentioned. And plus we got to catch up with a very important dwarf there. That is true. That's a good one. I don't know that people have chosen book two. I think so many people do choose book three because there's so much adventure and story, and everybody loves following, you know, Merry and Pippin's adventures and the Three Hunters and, you know, Rohan. But, wow, book two is a good one. You know, they've got the Council of Elrond. You get, you know. Lothlorien. Lothlorien, right. You get that beautiful Galadriel lament in Quenya. But, yeah, you get the Balrog and Gandalf. I mean, there's just so much there. Yeah. Do you have a non-legendarian work of Tolkien's that you like? Yes, I do. I would have to say it's Father Christmas letters. And I got to read them to my great-niece and great-nephew. Oh, wonderful. And that was a lot of fun. I mean, they were like five and seven. That's perfect. Yeah. Oh, that's a great one. That actually may answer the next question, so I might have to ask you a different one instead. Your favorite memory of a Tolkien-related activity, whether it's a moot or an event or reading the books out loud to somebody. That certainly was up there. But one of my favorite activities was when we went to Marquette at the Prince and Pony podcast moot and the art of the manuscript. And four times I went through there and looking at it. That was really amazing. That was. We were so fortunate to be able to hold that event there at that exact time when they had the manuscript event going. Wow. Yeah, that's mine too. Yeah, I got to drink a Spotted Cow with the Lord of the Mark there, which is probably as good as a proper 1420, I would believe. I say so. Having had a few visits in the pub with the Lord of the Mark myself, I concur wholeheartedly. Okay, let's go for a lightning round of quick questions and answers. Starting with, who's your favorite character in The Lord of the Rings? I'm going to go with Frodo, the finest hobbit in the Shire. Absolutely. Yeah. If I had to pick a first-age one, I would have to go with Excellion. Because here's a guy who took out Gothmog, who had killed two high kings of the Noldor. Yeah. So I believe he deserves the elf equivalent of a Medal of Honor, basically. Oh, no doubt about it. No doubt about it. Yep. Well, Joe, what's the one place in Middle Earth that you wish you could visit? Anywhere, anytime? The Shire. The Shire. Yeah, I think. Not that choice. Yeah. Either before or after the Shire. Maybe even after with the sea of Sam's work there. Yeah, I got to say, seeing the Shire in 1420 would be pretty amazing. Yes. Yes, definitely. Okay, the important question. Balrog wings, are they actual or metaphorical? Metaphorical. I mean, when Gandalf said, fly, you fools, fly, he didn't mean for him to actually fly. Exactly. Excellent answer. All right, who's your favorite dwarf? Favorite dwarf. We have so much on Gimli. I'm going to have to say Gimli. We know so much about him. Gimli from the books. The movies are okay, but he was more comical in the movies. Yeah, that's no slight on John Rhys-Davies, who did a great job. No, he really did. A bit of comic relief, yeah. Do you consider yourself a Merry or a Pippin? Definitely a Merry. That's great. Yeah. All right. One does not simply walk into Mordor, as Boromir makes quite clear. But if you could, who would you rather have at your side, Turin Turambar or Feanor? Oh, God. I'm doomed with either one. I'm going to go with Feanor. Not a bad call. Not a bad call. I think it's not wrong to be afraid of either one of them, but yeah. Yeah. Those are some great answers, Joe. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. It's been our privilege. Well, we've enjoyed having you here in the North Wing, but it is time for us to head over back to the common room and join the rest of the listeners. Thanks again, and we'll see you back at our next Questions After Nightfall, if not sooner. And now we return you to the podcast in progress. Always a pleasure to chat with our listeners, folks. Now, before we get started, I do have a few corrections to make to episode 392, which was released back in early December. While I don't recall the moment in the episode precisely, we apparently referred to the phony war, but we somehow connected it to World War I instead of World War II, of course. That is the period of time between September of 1939 and May of 1940, after the British, along with their allies the French, had declared war on Nazi Germany, but hadn't really gotten off the sofa to do anything about it yet. In addition, I also completely forgot or botched my Archduke Ferdinand history. I had mentioned the assassination taking place in Serbia, but of course Sarajevo was, both then and now, in Bosnia, It was a Serb terrorist that killed him. So, corrections done. James, let's go ahead and get started. Indeed. But we won't start with the usual reading. We'll get to that, I promise, but we're going to start by giving you some background on this story. We'll assume most of you have not read this, unlike The Lord of the Rings and even most of Unfinished Tales. This is new territory for many of you. Indeed, and it really is the deepest gut we've tried to tackle on the show so far. Now, in 1996, Christopher Tolkien finally published the 12th and last volume of the history of Middle Earth, The Peoples of Middle Earth. And we've looked at that a lot on the show, especially last season, because it included information on the appendices, like drafts of the tale of years and that entire making of Appendix A. Yeah, and The Peoples of Middle Earth is primarily concerned with that appendix material. But there's some additional stuff, right? There's four parts in total. Uh-huh. Four parts in total. And in the last chapter of the last part of this last volume of the history of Middle-earth, so it's the very last thing in the whole of the 12-volume series, you find the story of Tal Elmer. And that's what we're going to be covering over the next few episodes. But why cover this story now in the middle of a season, ostensibly on Unfinished Tales? Well, ostensibly, I do whatever I want. But no, you might remember last season, we were in the appendices to the Lord of the But several times we visited Unfinished Tales to flesh out things that we found in the appendices. For example, to shed light on part of Appendix A1 that talks about the history of Numenor, Don and I took an episode to cover a description of the island of Numenor from Unfinished Tales. Right. And when you and Sarah talked about Durin's Folk in Appendix A3, you spent two episodes covering the quest of Erebor from Unfinished Tales. Not to mention the massive six-episode sidebar. Oh, yeah. On Kiryan and Ale. Yeah, pretty big sidebar. But yeah, Kiryan and Ale from Unfinished Tales that you and Matt have covered as a quote-unquote addendum to your two episodes on Appendix A2 on the House of I.O. Thanks for these two episodes. We're going to spend six on this sidebar. Yeah, it was a little – but, you know, it fit perfectly, right? And that was – the plan was to find things, to flesh these stories out and bring more detail to them. And in fact, it turns out, ironically, you're the only co-host from last season that I didn't go into Unfinished Tales with. So as a way to make up for that, we're going to step out of Unfinished Tales for now in order to flesh out the recent story of Aldarion and Orendis that Sara and I just spent 11 episodes on. Yeah, and that's really the answer to the question of why this story? Not because you need an excuse to go outside the covers of Unfinished Tales this season with me, but it's deeply connected to the story that you have just spent more than a quarter of a season on. That is true. What is the deep connection to Aldarion and Arendus? Well, the story of Tal Elmar is a narrative that Tolkien wrote, but from the perspective of the inhabitants of Middle Earth. It's very unique in that sense, and I think you'll find that to be the case as we get into it. Also, not only is it the only narrative set in the Second Age aside from the Aldarion and Arendus story we just covered, it's the only narrative written from the perspective of these wild men. And to be clear, we have plenty of things written about the Second Age, the Eucalabeth, the description of the island of Numenor, the Lion of Elros, the first part of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, and even what we'll cover after this, the history of Galadriel and Celeborn, which I'm excited for. Oh, I am too. All of those are histories, right? They're not narratives. They tell us events of the time. They give us some small bits of story. but they're not character and plot-driven stories the same way that Eldarion and Arendus is, and the way that Tal Elmar is. Yeah, at least for the length of time that Tolkien bothered to write it. So that's why this story, I mean, at least it's why we are going to spend time in this story. As for why Tolkien wrote this story, we'll have plenty of things to say about that as we go. Obviously, that's a little beyond the scope of this intro. But for now, let's go ahead and talk about when Tolkien wrote this. We'll talk about the why later. In Christopher's introduction to the story, which again is located in Chapter 17 in Part 4 of The People of Middle-Earth, Volume 12 of The History of Middle-Earth, Christopher provides a note that Tolkien wrote in 1968, doesn't he? Yeah, before telling us that this note was, quote, written 13 years after he had abandoned the story, making that 1955. Right. Now, the story primarily exists in two portions, a typescript of six pages and a manuscript, although there's also a single rejected piece of paper that's associated with the typescript. We'll come to that. We will. The manuscript is dated January 1955. And while there's no evidence to suggest a given time frame between the typescript and the manuscript, Christopher says, I believe that the typescript belongs also to the 1950s. And I will always defer to Christopher on these kinds of things because he does things like figures out what ink he was using on the typewriter or which typewriter he was using. I mean, it's incredible how much he's able to decipher from these pages. So it would appear that Tolkien wrote the entirety of this story, that is the entirety of what he actually wrote because it's not finished, wrote it sometime in that 1950 to 1955 time frame. And that's something that Christopher says is remarkable, as the professor would therefore, quote, have been working on it during the time of extreme pressure between the publication of The Two Towers and that of The Return of the King. And as a reminder, folks, The Two Towers was published in November 1954 and The Return of the King in October 1955, making January of 1955 a pretty crazy time to start writing a whole new story. Right. He's smack in the middle of finishing Return of the King. seriously man he's probably checking proofs and figuring out the appendices and all of this stuff I think this is a form of procrastination I could review the galley proofs or I could start a whole new story and even though he abandoned work on it in 1955 it didn't seem to leave his mind entirely given that he wrote the note that Christopher shares with us some 13 years later exactly so let's go ahead and read that note and talk about what Tolkien was doing here. He writes that this story is the, quote, beginnings of a tale that sees the Numenoreans from the point of view of the Wild Men. And this is Tolkien continuing. It was begun without much consideration of geography or the situation as envisaged in The Lord of the Rings. You don't say, Professor. Yeah, it's pretty clear, as we'll see, that he didn't begin with that in mind. And we'll look at an abandoned start to the story that actually seems to have nothing at all to do with The Lord of the Rings. But if that's the case, once you do decide you want to fit into the legendarium, what are you going to do with it to make that happen, Professor? So he continues in this note from 1968. Either it must remain as a separate tale, only vaguely linked with the developed Lord of the Rings history. That makes me think Adventures of Tom Bombadil, by the way. Sort of vaguely linked. There's a connection, but it's pretty tenuous. And it's not, I mean, calling it part of the legendary is kind of a stretch, right? Well, I mean, it's almost, it makes me think like the Hobbit. Oh, yeah, yeah. Maybe was perhaps conceived of in relation to the Silmarillion before the Lord of the Rings came on. Early on, before he decided to retcon the connection between the two. Yeah, I mean, it makes references to it. It talks about Gondolin and the Goblin Wars and the Sundering of the Elves and that sort of stuff. But in a sense, it's still separate from... Yeah, you can tell. I mean, it's like, okay, sure. I mean, the Elven King is obviously Thingol, but he isn't, you know? The Arkenstone is a Silmaril, but it isn't. Right. So either it's going to be that way, he says, right? It's only going to be this separate tale still kind of vaguely connected, or, coming back to the professor's words, and I think so, it must recount the coming of the Numenoreans, elf friends before the downfall and represent their choice of permanent havens. So the geography, Tolkien writes, must be made to fit that of the mouths of Anduin and the Lungstrand. That's, I think, really, really important. We've got to remember that phrase, permanent havens, because we'll see how that fits into establishing when this story is taking place. Yeah. But also note that Tolkien sees two possible solutions. Either leave it vaguely linked or, and this seems to be his preference, recount the arrival of the Numenoreans sometime before the fall in Second Age 3319. That's a pretty big window of time as we'll get to. But clearly Tolkien ran out of time to do this preferred thing, to connect it to the coming of the Numenoreans. By the way, going back to that 68 letter, he says specifically the coming of the Numenoreans elf friends. So he's not talking about the king's men. He's talking about the faithful. If that split has yet happened, depending on when this takes place. And I think it has, as we'll probably get to. But, you know, Christopher points out that there is no sign that Tolkien returned to it in his last years, which, of course, explains why it still feels only vaguely linked, if that. So one of the things James and I are going to do as we go through this is speculate from time to time how Tolkien would have reconciled this. So let's get ready for a lot of what ifs. Yeah, there's no avoiding the what ifs reading. Yeah, you can't when you're getting this deep. Incomplete it is, exactly. And finally, we should mention the when and where in Middle Earth, but only to say we can't really answer either definitively, and we'll discuss them as clues in the text come up. Although based on Tolkien's 1968 note that we just read, it's clear that he meant for this to take place in what you might think of as southern Gondor, the geography of, quote, the mouths of Undoan and the Lung Strand. Although, again, there's still going to be some other... Yeah, because the Isen shows up later, which is not in southern Gondor. So we'll talk a bit about that. But you can basically think of the Lung Strand as the southern coast, which is going to be problematic when it starts talking elsewhere about the west coast. We'll get to all that. Yeah, yeah. It is a little confusing for sure. It's going to be complicated. It is, but it's a lot of fun to kind of work our way through. Now, the other thing is that if this is after the founding of permanent havens, as it sure seems to be based on Tolkien's words in that letter, that this represents their choice of permanent havens, that would mean the story has to take place after Second Age 1200. That's when the tale of years tells us that during the reign of Taran Calame, and yes, that's another connection to Aldarion and Arendas, That is when the Numenoreans, quote, begin to make permanent havens. That exact prize. Exactly. That's why it's so important. So with the downfall taking place in 3319, we have a period of over 1800 years that this story could take place in. But as we go through this, I think you'll see why we think it's later in that window rather than earlier. Now, soon we'll start the story of Tal Elmar properly. But before we do, I want to take a minute to thank the amazing community that has grown up around this show. After all, there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us. Indeed. The PPP really does have a warm and welcoming listener community. If you've got questions or just want to talk about how much you love Middle Earth, be sure to check out our common room on Facebook and across all social media. On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Yeah, there's a page, but you're going to want to join the group for that great fan community. Exactly. And on every social media platform other than Facebook, we're just at Prancing Pony Pod. And of course, you can find our subreddit at r slash Prancing Pony Pod. And please consider checking out my daily show, Today's Tolkien Times, on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. That's where you can get your daily Middle Earth fix with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to First Age Fridays. Be sure to watch or listen at YouTube.com slash at Prancing Pony Pod. James, let's dive in to the story of Tal Elmar. Would you take us away? Absolutely. In the days of the Dark Kings, when a man could still walk dry shod from the rising of the sun to the sea of its setting, there lived in the fenced town of his people in the green hills of Agar an old man by name Hazard Longbeard. Two prides he had, in the number of his sons, seventeen in all And in the length of his beard, five feet without stretching But his joy in his beard was the greater For it remained with him, and it was soft and ruly to his hand Whereas his sons, for the most part, were gone from him And those that remained, or came ever nigh, were neither gentle nor ruly They were indeed much as Hazard himself had been in the days of his youth broad, swarthy, short, tough, harsh-tongued, heavy-handed, and quick to violence. Save one only, and he was the youngest. Tal-el-Mahazad, his father named him. He was yet but eighteen years of age, and lived with his father and the two of his brothers' next elder. He was tall and white-skinned, and there was a light in his grey eyes that would flash to fire if he were off. and though that happened seldom and never without great cause it was a thing to remember and beware of those who had seen that fire called him flint-eye and respected him whether they loved him or no Fatal Elmar might seem among that swart sturdy folk slender built and lacking in strength of leg and neck that they praised but a man that strove with him soon found him strong beyond guess and sudden and swift, hard to grapple and harder to allude. Already so much to go into here. I mean, just this first sentence alone, we're probably going to spend far too much time on because we begin with this sort of obtuse reference to the days of the dark kings. We're going to find out later that we might or might not, but we'll get to that too, be in the time of the rise of Sauron in the Second Age. So what dark kings, plural, are we talking about? Yeah. I mean, at this stage, it's difficult to tell. Obviously, one of the things that comes to mind is either the Nazgul themselves or the men that became the Nazgul. Right, right. Because they do become kings and things like that. And yeah, that could be. But yeah, we really don't necessarily know at this stage. Just a reminder, I guess, that in some ways, you know, these tribes of wild men would all have their own kings in some ways. So you're dealing with dozens of kings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So some of them are dark. I think it's helpful to think of this sort of more in sort of early Old Testament times when we're really talking at sort of a tribal level, not kings with castles. Yeah, not Solomon or David, but like, yeah. Yeah, this does have sort of like almost a judge's feel to it. This whole story does. Yeah. Yes, very much so. That's not all, though. In the footnote to this, we learn that the Dark Kings was actually added later on in Tolkien's writing. The first two versions had in the days of the Great Kings instead. What an interesting change. I mean, it's a tone change for sure. It makes you feel like, okay, these people are living in some difficult times. Right. Whereas the Great Kings, I don't know. I mean, you wonder if early on he was imagining a connection to specific kings. But I don't think so, only because, as we'll see, we get a really weird reference in the early drafts. Yeah, I don't think that we're… It's not a Middle-earth reference at all, at all. Well, we'll come to that. But it interesting because the fact that he using this term the days of means it a contrast with when this is being told or written Right So the contrast used to be great to whatever they are now So maybe there are no kings or they're not very good. That shifts to dark kings as if to say there was a period in history where the kings weren't as good. Now we're not in the period of the dark kings. This was back in the days of the dark kings. Yeah, you're right. Because that's what that is. You're right. It's a tonal contrast. It's saying to the people who are listening to the story at a contemporary time to the storyteller are hearing a story of the past and they're being told essentially when in the past this is taking place. But I wonder also whether that shift represents a change in Tolkien's mind about perspective or actual content. Right, right. like did he change who the kings were in his mind or did he just change the perspective of how the kings were viewed that's a good question it's one i don't think we're i don't think we're going to be able to answer that not on this one and then we get a reference to this ability to walk from the far east to the far west right from the rising of the sun to the setting of the sun without getting your feet wet now if we hadn't already been told that sounds like a flat earth We're talking about the story being before the downfall of Numenor. But again, there's some interesting stuff in the initial version. As Christopher points out, in the rejected version of the opening section of the text, the story actually begins in the days of the great kings, when a man could still walk dry shod from Rome to York. Not that those cities were yet built or thought of. They lived in the town of his people and so on. I'm going to need a judge's ruling on this, walking from Rome to York. Yeah. I mean, first of all, when could you ever walk from Rome to York dry shod? I mean, because the tunnel wasn't a thing, right? I guess you could do it now, but according to Google Maps, by the way, it would take 450 hours to walk from Rome to York with the tunnel in place. So that's the kind of goofy rabbit holes I go down all the time. But Dryshod, and folks, by the way, geographically, York is an old, old town in England. It was originally a Roman town, later a Viking settlement, northeast of Leeds. It's about 1,300 miles to the northwest of Rome. So it's a long way off. Is he talking about like Pangaea? Are we talking about like the ancient, ancient? It's interesting that it goes to the point of saying not that those cities were yet built or thought of. So he's not claiming that it's at a time when that existed, but rather relating it. And it reminds me a lot of really early Book of Lost Tales associating Warwick with Toleressia and so on, places in Toleressia. That's the sort of feel it has to me, unless, as you say, it's just completely unrelated at all. It's wild because, I mean, Rome was established around, what, 750 BC, something like that, a little before that, I think. I just looked it up and York was founded in 71 AD. Right. I mean, we're talking about very, very long time. Rome? If Rome did not exist yet. And was not even thought of. Or not even thought of. We're talking about, you know, 750, 800 BC. Yeah. So long time. Clearly he wasn't originally thinking Middle Earth. This was definitely procrastination, like you said. I'm just going to write a story and it's going to take place a long, long time ago. Which of course raises the question as well, whether the great to dark change is somehow connected with this shift to now it's going to be in Middle-earth. Except that the second version, after he changed the Rome to York bit, still had great Kings. It was only the typescript that ended up including dark Kings. The manuscript is after the typescript. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to say what he was thinking, much less when he was thinking it. I mean, it's often hard to do that, but in this case it's virtually impossible, so I'm going to stop trying and give myself that big of a headache. But anyway, all of that aside, we now get to the location of the story. It's a fenced town in the green hills of Agar. Where are these green hills of Agar? Kind of what I'm thinking, like, okay, great. Not only do we not know when, we don't know where. Now, while we will eventually get there in the story, I want us to jump ahead real briefly to near the very, very end and a note that Tolkien wrote. And it's in a moment where he's kind of writing to himself, really, sort of working out things like when the story is taking place and where it's headed. He writes, the place is on estuary of Isen, question mark, or Morthond, period. Pretty big difference. Big difference. Now, the Isin is, of course, the river that begins in the south of the Misty Mountains, going through Isengard, then heading west after the Fords of Isin, and it comes out on the coast about 150 miles south of Londair, or Vinyalonde, as it was called when originally founded by Eldarion. But that's on the portion of Middle Earth where the coastline is running north to south. Correct. The Morthond. Yeah. It's the other way around, right? I mean, it's a river whose source is in the southern part of the White Mountains. Yeah. And that, of course, is an east-west range. So it flows from the valley, actually flows from the valley where the Stone of Erec is located. Though, like Rome and York, the stone is not yet there and has not been thought of, along with the accompanying Oathbreakers. They're still far, far in the future, but that's the geography of where the Morthon is. It flows down. It joins the Ringlo at Ethelond, which is the Elfhaven just north of Dol Amroth. And that's where the coast is running east-west. And so you're looking at a southern shore. It's a little confusing because the two locations, they're about 450 miles apart as the crow flies or as the cravine fly. So it certainly makes a difference to the story because as we'll get into it, I don't want to get too far into it yet because we'll get some clues later as well. It also seems to make a difference as to who the fell folk might be. Right. And I want to emphasize this. If people want to look on a map. If you look at Middle Earth, there's that sort of cape that juts out, the under us that juts out. And, you know, so there's a part that's, as I said, running north to south where the coast is facing west. Right. And then there's the part where the coast is facing south. So the geography is completely different in terms of what you would think of as north, south, west, and most importantly, east. East. As we'll get to. Because what East means is vastly different depending on what part of the landscape we're talking about. There really is a significant difference there. I'm wondering, though, the way he wrote this, you know, the places on Estuary of Eisen, question mark, or Morthond, period. Almost makes me think he was thinking initially Eisen or Morthond. And then he settles on Morthond, yeah. Sort of like he did earlier, like it could either be vague and vaguely connected or, and I think this is what we need to do. Exactly. Yeah. Connected this way. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right there. Oh, it certainly seems plausible to me that he was considering some things and it's like, no, no, it's more thought. Literally thinking out loud while on paper. Probably not talking to himself like I do. Well, he might be. Who knows? Who knows? but after all that we meet the first of the characters in this story a man named Hazard Longbeard in the first draft an old man by name Tal Argan Longbeard presumably related to possibly the place Tal must mean son of or something exactly a patronymic of some kind I promise you folks we will not always take this long to dissect one sentence we're not trying to You know, we're not changing the format of the show. But we just needed to establish a bit about when and where this story might be taking place. This first sentence gave us not only the best chance to do that, but also the best clues to start that process. But back to the text, Hazat, of course, is proud of two things we're told, his sons and his beard. Now, the beard is arguably irrelevant for anything other than a really cool illustration about what his sons are like. But it is proper ZZ Top territory, five feet long without even stretching it out. This guy needs to be like sponsored by Gillette and get millions of dollars to shave his beard on TV. Yeah. Yeah. ZZ Topu famously, the one guy that did not have a beard, his surname was Beard. That's right. I'd forgotten that. Oh, my goodness. Things I completely forgot from the 80s for 500, Alex. Yeah. Anyway, we learn later in this paragraph, he's broad, short, tough, et cetera, and has a five-foot long beard. Yes, he does. Any connection possibly between his name, Hazard, and the name of the dwarves, Khazard? I sort of feel like that. I mean, he's described like a human dwarf. Yeah, it's interesting. It is. I mean, it's coincidental, I'm sure. Yeah. Or it speaks to some of the phonoaesthetics of Tolkien sort of having associations in his mind with certain sounds. Yeah. When he heard that Hazard or Kazard, he's thinking of a broad, stout, broad, strong. I love the way they get to the description later when we get to Tal Elmar that he's unlike the people of this area. He's clearly not built for rugby. He's built for something else. That's literally strength of neck and leg. And I'm like, okay, so he's not a New Zealand all black, you know? Yeah. But, you know, you said the beard isn't particularly relevant, but it is used to an interesting effect here as Tolkien contrasts it to Hazard's sons. I do love that sort of analogy. It's great. But first off, I've got to stop. 17 sons, and it doesn't even count as daughters. So heaven knows how many children he actually had. The text says 17 in all, which initially made me think like multiple wives. Again, I'm getting some of that very, very old Old Testament feel from this. But the text later says he took a wife late. So that's, you know, probably not the case. But that's interesting because if he took a wife late, his youngest son is, as we'll find out, 18. And he has 17 sons, not counting his daughters. How old is Hazard? And how worn out is his wife, his late wife? No wonder she's dead. Yeah. I mean, good heavens. Even if the odds favored him and he had 17 sons and only like four or five daughters, that's still an insane number of children for somebody who took a wife late. And the youngest is 18. So he's got to be pushing 150. Yeah. I mean, he's got to be up there. I don't know. Men didn't live that long then. So could you have that many with one wife if you got married late, which let's say this culture is ballpark 35, yeah, 30, 35 would be late. Sure. But even if he had a kid a year, you're talking about kids until your mid-50s. I guess in theoretic, yeah, I guess he could be late 70s. Yeah, he could be late 70s. Charlie Chaplin was 73. Yeah, but he couldn't pick him up, yeah. He didn't have 17, but yeah. He didn't have 17 that we know of, yeah. That we know of. I like that. Oh, man. Anyway, that contrast between the beard and the sons is that his sons are mostly gone, not soft, and definitely not ruly. The beard, though, is always with him, soft to the touch, and ruly. That's right. Ruly is one of those words in English that we mostly or almost exclusively know by its opposite. We know the word unruly all the time. We almost never hear the word Ruli. It's pretty much an obsolete word. His beard was kempt. Yeah, exactly. It's kempt, which is another one that is mostly by its opposite. And, of course, Ruli just means orderly, well-behaved, easy to control. So not us. Finally, we learn about Hazard himself, or at least what he was like as a young man many decades before. Short and broad, probably broader now. Well, yeah, aren't we all? swarthy so dark skin dark complexion tough and given to anger and violence and just as the beard is compared to his sons in a sense of opposites we are finally introduced to the star of today's show Tal Elmar who is the opposite of Hazad and his other sons at the time of the story he's recently turned 18 he still lives with Hazad but it isn't just the two of them his next two older brothers also live with them it's kind of interesting because they don't feature in this story at all At all. I wonder if Tolkien was going to introduce them at some point. There are a couple of other moments that feel like very much non-sequiturs. We'll get to one of them in this episode, too. Yeah, they're setting something up, maybe. Yeah, for later on, but then we never get to the later on. We also get a vivid physical description of the young man, and it's very much an opposite of Huzar. He's tall, he's white-skinned instead of short and swarthy. He's got gray eyes with a flash that would appear when he was angry. I like that. This anger is said to be rare and also never without good reason. But it was enough that it earns him a nickname in the community, Flint Eye. And, of course, that's not just the spark of Flint, though it references that, too. It's also the eye color because, remember, his eyes are gray. Flint is a gray rock. And as we will see later, the fell folk are said to have this same appearance. Fair, tall, and flint-eyed they were. and we will get to why that's so important and what that tells us, if anything, when we get there. Now, even if he wasn't a popular kid, he was well-respected. Even if he wasn't built like the people of Aga, he was strong beyond guess, quick and agile and tough to bring down. We're going to get to that because he, in a way, he reminds me of, well, we'll get to that. I want to get to that later. Because when we talk about who the fell folk are, and we get into the different potential races and kinships, or kins of the Eddine. We'll get to that. But that's for later. But for now, would you like to continue the reading? Indeed I will. A fair voice he had, which made even the rough tongue of that people more sweet to hear. But he spoke not over much, and he would stand often aloof when others were chattering, with the look on his face that men read rightly as pride. Yet it was not the pride of a master, but rather the pride of one of alien race, whom fate has cast away among an ignoble people, and there bound him in servitude. For indeed Tal Elmar labored hard and at menial tasks, being but the youngest son of an old man, who had little wealth left save his beard and a repute for wisdom. But strange to say in that town, he served his father willingly and loved him more than all his brothers in one, and more than was the want of any sons in that land. Indeed, it was most often on his father's behalf that the flint flash was seen in his eyes. For Tal Elmar had a strange belief, whence it came was a wonder, that the old should be treated kindly and with courtesy, and should be suffered to live out their life days in such ease as they could. If ye must gainsay them, he said, let it be done with respect, for they have seen many years and many times, maybe, have they faced the evils which we come to untried. Turns out, Talalmar would make a pretty good podcaster. His voice was so good, it made the rough language of Hazard's people sound good. He is smooth as silk. The problem, of course, is he doesn't talk much, So maybe podcasting isn't a great idea. Not so good. Not so good. Maybe not. Yeah. He stands around apparently while everyone else talks and folks look at his face and see pride. And they actually are right to see that. They're not misreading. But it's not the sort of like I'm better than you pride. I mean, it kind of is. It's pride in his origin. Yeah. He's of alien race placed by fate among an ignoble people where he's held in servitude. He's not held in servitude, but it's like that's part of the analogy, right? The fate has placed him in servitude among these ignoble people. Yeah, exactly. And it's really interesting, this contrast of pride and this sort of two kinds of pride that Tolkien's exploring here, the pride of a master. Right. Which is the pride of thinking that you're better than somebody and lording it over them. And this is not that. This is a pride of knowing who he is. That he actually is better than them. well they're an ignoble people yeah maybe but but the thing is he what's interesting about it is it's not pride that leads him to dominate in any way no it's a pride that makes him content yes with where he's at he doesn't need to do assurance it's self-assurance exactly yeah yeah i really like that that contrast between these two types of pride this is the this is the Good pride. Yeah, exactly. This is the good pride. You know, because it is something that we see in Tolkien. There are times, most of the time, of course, pride being a negative, but there are times where pride is a really good thing. I always think of Aragorn standing up in the bow of the boats as they go through the Argonath, and the hobbits seeing in him this lordliness, this kingly nature, and how proud he is. He better be proud for crying out loud. He's got something to be proud of. But it's so different than the pride of, say, Melkor, who's just going to rule over everything, or the pride of Sauron in the same way. And yeah, that's a very good point. I mean, he's not their superior in any way in terms of positionally. He's the youngest son of an old poor man. So he's very, very low on the social totem pole. But he's so confident in who he is. And he is proud of the fact that he is different. And it is interesting that the story says among an ignoble people, because we'll get to more of that from his grandmother later. Yeah. So, like I said, you know, he's not a man of status at all, obviously being the youngest son of a poor man who already doesn't have any status. But I love that he serves his father out of a genuine love. And it's something the text goes out of its way to tell us is strange to say. and interesting because he even is said to love his father more than all the other 16 brothers do combined. Yeah, and there's this really interesting bit that the fiery flash in his eye that we talked about earlier comes primarily on his dad's behalf. He gets angry when somebody's wronged his dad, don't necessarily him. I love that. Yeah. Boy, that's another, we're going to get to more on this. That's another thing that reminds me of the dwarves, but we'll get to that. Okay. There's also this. He holds another strange belief. It's described as strange. This idea of treating the old with kindness and courtesy. Yeah. And it's interesting because it's not only told to us that it's a strange belief, the text even parenthetically, you know, where it came from is a wonder. Like nobody even has a clue as to where he got this unusual philosophy to treat the old with kindness. what's interesting here though is that this is another one of those things where it feels like Tolkien is setting up something for later because it never really bears any fruit it doesn't come back in the story or I mean it shows up but it isn't central like you'd expect it to be for this much time being spent on it I wonder what he's getting at yeah because I mean he goes to great lengths to contrast this with what everyone else thinks presumably everyone else thinks that once you get old who cares about you slogans run man yeah exactly yeah and just this idea that they should be allowed to live out their remaining days in ease yeah and and you know that seems to explain perhaps why he's willing to work so hard on his his dad's behalf including the menial tasks yeah but it's interesting that this seems to be in such contrast to the culture that he's yeah yeah it's not just his brothers who are Like, oh, you know, these guys don't like their dad. It's the whole culture. I mean, it's like it's so strange that he has this belief and nobody understands where he got it from. He even says, look, if you have to disagree with your elders, do it respectfully, remembering that they have experience that we don't. Yeah. And in the part we skipped, we're reminded that feeding and sheltering them in their old ages just partial return for the care they showed you when you were kids. Exactly. I mean, this is sort of common sense for most of us. This is a philosophy that is common for our culture, that we respect our elders, that we want to take care of our folks, that we want to let them live out their lives as best we can. This, along with that bit about how he gets mad on his dad's behalf, really reminds me of how, okay, we talked earlier about Hazad being dwarf-like in stature. This feels dwarven. If you remember last year, Sare and I were in Of Dwarves and Men as sort of a footnote to some of the things you're talking about in The Quest of Erebor. There we read about how devoted the parents and children of dwarves were to one another. It was described as often rather fiercely, very much. I mean, we think about the whole battle of Azanulbazar was to go after the people who killed the father of so many of these dwarves. It's all about revenge for your father. It's all about protecting your children. And this feels very dwarven, but it also feels like a total non sequitur because it kind of goes nowhere. Well, given what we have of the story for sure. But as you suggested before, this seems like it's setting something up, that this will actually turn out to be an important part of the story. We'll have to speculate later maybe where that might fit in. But anyway, yeah. Well, we definitely will. Good. I'm glad. We also learn that the people see this as plain folly, but it's the rule in their house. Even his two older brothers who still live with him and Hazard don't break this rule. That's right. Because they don't want to wrestle with Tal Elmar. He's a tough guy. Yeah. Tough guy to get down. Yeah. It's fascinating. How would they have ordinarily treated them? Yeah. I mean, seriously, is this like, well, fend for yourself, man. If you can't get out there and farm and grow your own food, I guess you're just going to starve to death. Too bad. Yeah. It does feel like a complete lack of parental care at all. Like, oh, you did your job in feeding me and giving me a roof over my head. Yep. See ya. I mean, it's pretty unreal. But you wonder if Tolkien is getting at something here about him being, as we'll see, sort of a symbol of good amongst the symbol of, you know, savagery and incivility. Mm-hmm. So we'll come back to that, I'm sure. Sorry, I just have to mention that I'm thinking of that meal scene in Talladega Nights. The way that they're treating their grand – those kids are treating their grandfather. It took me a second. Like a half-rumpede. I'm like, okay, I know where he's going. Oh, man. When Ricky Bobby says, you know, the only good thing you ever did was make a hot daughter. That's the only thing I can think of As an example of this The opposite of what we're reading here That was so shocking at the time You're kind of like What? This is so off the charts You know Yeah You weren't expecting a Talladega Nights reference Were you? No, that's not a reference I ever expected Honestly Well played though, sir Well played Shake and bake we told you about the amazing ppp community after our earlier break if you're part of that community and want to enjoy something even more special come join the fellowship of the podcast on patreon you get to be in the best discord community around one that includes host hangouts and even live episode recordings and of course your support there is what enables me to work full-time doing all of the shows, the Prancing Pony podcast, of course, but also today's Talking Times, the Rings of Power Wrap-Up, and my streaming show, The PPP Plays. When you join, you can get episode postscripts, ad-free episodes, free merch, and more. And you can join our Questions After Nightfall episodes, or even appear as a guest in the North Wing. Go to patreon.com slash prancingponypod to show your support and join the fellowship of the podcast. And don't forget to rate and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends, which is something you can do now directly on Spotify. Just share the show with them. Well, James, we've got at least a couple more readings this episode. Can you take us away with the next one? Absolutely. For Hazard also had been the youngest son of his mother, and she died in his boyhood, and she was not of their people. Such was the tale that he had overheard, not openly spoken, indeed, for it was held no credit to the house. She came of the strange folk, hateful and proud, of which there was rumour in the westlands, coming out of the east, it was said. Fair, tall, and flint-eyed they were, with bright weapons made by demons in the fiery hills. Slowly they were thrusting towards the shores of the sea, driving before them the ancient dwellers in the lands. Not without resistance. There were wars on the east marches, and since the older folk were yet numerous, the incomers would at times suffer great loss and be flung back. Indeed, little had been heard of them in the hills of Agar far to the west for more than a man's life, since that great battle of which songs were yet sung. In the valley of Ishmaelog it had been fought, the wise in law told and there a great host of the fell folk had been ambushed in a narrow place and slaughtered in heaps and in that day many captives were taken for this had been no affray on the borders or fight with advance guards a whole people of the fell folk had been on the move with their wains and their cattle and their women now Buldah father of Hazard had been in the army of the north king that went to the muster of Ishmaelog and he brought back from the war as booty a wound and a sword and a woman. And she was fortunate for the fate of the captives was short and cruel, but Buldar took her as his wife. All right. Well, we are introducing more and more of the characters of this story. Now we get to meet Buldar. We skipped a tiny bit at the beginning, by the way, where we learn unsurprisingly that Hazard loves Tal Elmar dearly. And it's partly, not surprisingly, because of the love that is shown by his son to him. That's why it's unsurprising. But the other reason is because Tal Elmar reminded him of somebody, his own mom. Now, Hazard was also a youngest child and lost his mom early in his youth. And we're told that she was not of their people. Now we're starting to see why Tal Elmar is so different from his brothers and the rest of Hazard's people. That's right. Not that Hazard knew this, by the way, from public records or openly known histories. It was an overheard tale because it was considered a shame to his house. And I get the feeling that the shame is not because she was taken as a spoil of war, which is still shameful. But instead, it was because she was of a different people. That's interesting. I'm almost wondering if that was also unusual because it does say that she was fortunate. Oh, yeah. I wondering if the fact that she was allowed to live is actually unusual Let alone taken as a wife Yeah Yeah It a combination of the two Even though that a horrible thing it's different from perhaps what was the norm in that. And that's why they didn't talk about it because it was not the done thing to do. Normally you would kill them. Right. Not take them. Not marry them. Yeah. Force them. The advanced version of kiss, kill, marry or something like that, right? or whatever that is. Yeah, well, yeah, something like that. Finally, we're told about these strange folk who are both hateful and proud. And these strange folk are coming from the east. They are described in a similar way to Tal Elmar, fair-skinned, tall, and flint-eyed, but also carrying weapons crafted by demons in the fiery hills. We'll say more on that in a moment. Yeah, we will, definitely. It's interesting. This is where we're starting to get the geography of the east and the west. Yeah. There are people in the east traveling to the west. And so who they are is going to largely depend on which west we're currently in. Yes, exactly. It really does. Yeah. But the result of the arrival of these people is that Hazard's people, the ancient dwellers in this part of the world, are being driven off as these strange folk push their way to the sea. I think it's finally time for us to start talking about who they might be. We've got different ideas. This is a total freeform discussion. I know there are a few points I wanted to kind of bring up or talk about. The first thing that comes to my mind is the visual description of these people. It actually combines various houses of the Eddine. We get the height and fair skin that are described as being typical of the house of Hador. They, of course, are blonde-haired and blue-eyed, though, so this isn't the house of Hador. But we get the gray eyes, which is very much a house of Beor tree. And we also get the description of Tal Elmar being slender, sudden, and swift. Remember earlier I said this reminds me of somebody? It reminds me of Hurin. He was lithe and swift after the manner of his mother's kin, Hadrath of the Haladin. So they sort of in some ways have elements of all three of the houses of the Eddine. Yeah. The heightened skin color of the hotter golden head, the eye color, and perhaps even sort of that anger of the House of Beor. Yeah. But then that wiriness of the House of Haleth. Yeah. I mean, I think we're going to see a bunch of evidence as we continue to read on that they're probably Edine of some kind. I think that's – Oh, yeah. I think that's clear. We'll discuss some other possibilities, but I think there's a pretty strong case to be made there, as you say, even just on the grounds of what they look like. Exactly. But I want to talk a little bit about this coming from the East as well, and not only what that might mean, but what we might incorrectly jump to. Right, right. What it probably doesn't mean. Because of what we tend to think of when we talk about the East, right? It could easily lead to the conclusion that these are Easterlings. right or the Wainriders or Balcroff and so on right we even the word Wain is used that's true we get a Wain right here in this passage but the Easterlings are described as well more like Hazard's people short and broad long and strong in the arm their skins were swart or sallow and their hair was dark as where their eyes so that does not at all sound like these people at all not that they've been called the fell folk yet my bad spoilers the strange folk at this point we can call that right yeah yeah if they're coming from east and this is where why it's so important where the hills of agar are yeah right if it's in that taking place in the mouth of the eisen then what's actually east is like the the gap of rohan and and so on yeah that's what's east exactly that's a big difference for if it's happening down at the Morthod, because if you look to the east of Morthod, what's east of Morthod? Pelargir. Right. Which is giving you the strong feeling that these are Numenoreans of some kind, whether they're king's men or faithful, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, if it's Pelargir, that's a faithful outpost. That would be faithful. The king's men apparently settled further south in Umbar and Harad. They could have come up. But here's the thing that I think rules all of that out. were told that they were pushing their way to the sea. But which part of the sea? If you look at the map, could they help them? But what I mean is that suggests they weren't already, like if they weren't coastal to start with, I mean. That's a fair point. I mean, now, Pelargir is not coastal. Pelargir is pretty far inland, actually, quite a bit inland from the mouths of Anduin. But if you were in Pelargir pushing your way to the sea, you would just go down to the mouths. Exactly. You would go south. You wouldn't go southwest. Yeah, exactly. You wouldn't go west across the Langstrand. No. That's a very good point. Yeah. Oh. It's difficult to say who they are, where they're coming from. I mean, the other thing is maybe we just don't have a really good sense of where – I mean, we're jumping ahead here, but if they're Edine that did not go to Numenor. Right. Where were the Edine that didn't go to Numenor? I don't know that we know. Well, we know that some of them were the folks who would make up the Northmen, who would become the Aotheod, who would become the Rohirrim. Sure. Right? So we know, and they were in southern Mirkwood, Ravonian. Which suggests the Kalanavon. Which exactly suggests that connection. Some of them were much further north, right? The men of Dale were said to have been kin. But that goes against what we suggested earlier, that Tolkien had sort of settled on Morthond as being the... Yeah, it really does. Because if it's Morthond, then who's coming from the east? And why would you come all the way that far when you could just at any point hang a left and you're at the sea that faces south? Yeah. I don't know. The other thing I'll just mention about Pelagir and Umbar and so on is that they weren't – I mean, Pelagir was settled in 2350. Yeah. So that does put it pretty late. Much later. Yeah, much later. You know, still 1,000 years before the ultimate downfall, but 1,000 years, more than 1,000 years after the permanent havens began. so and the other thing i was just going to mention is the permanent havens the way that they're described it does talk about on the western part yeah which if if it was the the long strand you would probably call that the southern part not the western probably i i i don't i don't know it's sort of it's it's it's tricky thinking about all this yeah geography that's a very good point you would say, I don't know that you would say west if you were talking about the Longstrand that faces south. I don't know. Because that's like Dol Amroth and Edeland and all of that. We'll get to more of this, folks. I promise you. I do want to just briefly read there's this mention. This is what it says in Fall of Numenor, although this is quoting from the Akalabeth. and the context is 2350 when Pelagia is built. Right. It says, It came to pass in that time that the Numenoreans first made great settlements upon the west shores of the ancient lands. Great settlements as opposed to the permanent havens that we began in 1200. But notice it says the west shores. I don't think you would describe the Langstrond as the west shores. No, that would be a southern shore because it faces south. It's a southern shore. that's of course implying that what's just being described there is is what we're coming to in this story which might not be it might be a completely that's true that might be a rival of of of Numenoreans but anyway these are all the the ingredients that go into this speculation so many reasons why we don't understand exactly who this is or when this is but let's get back to their weapons that certainly grabbed us by surprise weapons made by demons in the fiery hills it seems kind of hyperbolic in a way this is sort of like anything I don't understand is magic you know like these aren't demonic weapons right we're just talking about weapons that the people of this region the people of the hills of Agar see as far beyond their technical exactly and I think that's the key I think this is just a technology that they're not familiar with yeah yeah you can imagine certain legends cropping up around these strange swords if they're not if you're not familiar with iron if you're a bronze age culture and you come across iron what do you make of it yeah well you start to tell these stories of how they were forged by the gods or whatever you know right you have to you have to come up something or made by demons in the in the fiery hills yeah demons in the fiery hills i mean uh you know it is is uh eradruin erupting and we're casting weapons in mordor now i don't think so I don't think so but wherever they're from and whoever really made their weapons as we said they're pushing toward the sea and where this takes place we're still not sure if we knew exactly where this took place it would help us, I don't think it would still fully answer the question, it might rule some out, but it wouldn't you know, determinedly answer the question of who they are you know, whether it could be anybody from the predecessors to the Northmen or, you know, Kingsmen coming from, you know, up the coast from Umbar and in. I mean, they are clearly related to the Eddine. And we know that because at the end of the story, and spoilers a little bit because we don't expect everybody to have read this, Tal Elmore will eventually encounter some Numenorean men and he will understand or recognize the language and eventually be able to communicate with them. and that's really the key where this comes out because he's remembering all this from from his grandmother well hereditary because he didn't know his grandmother the implication is that he's of the same kind right in the orient exactly so he's edine at the very least yeah and is he you know descended from the new and oriental pillar gear i that doesn't seem likely like you said but what what is the connection yeah we'll get to that but we will we do have to jump ahead like this occasionally because I think a lot of the early stuff only makes sense in light of things we find out later. So exactly. If we didn't do this, we'd have to go back and repeat the whole thing. We pretty much would. So even though in case it's not too late, for those of you who are following along with the text, it's not a very long story. I want to say 16, 18 pages, something like that. Go ahead and read the whole thing first, rather than what we always recommend you do when we went through the Silmarillion Lord of the Rings where you're like, just read the chapter? No, read the whole thing. Because it's all one piece and we'll be talking about some of the things towards the end in the middle or in the beginning as we're doing here. This inevitable march to the sea, though, is not happening unopposed. There is war on what the text says is the East Marches, which once again, where are the East Marches? Hazard's people still have the numerical advantage and that sometimes translates into victories against the invaders. And it turns out it's been a long time, perhaps 100 years since a great battle that has made its way into their oral history. And this battle took place in yet another location we don't know, Ishmaelog, somewhere to the east of the hills of Agar. Now, this battle saw a huge group of these Flint-eyed people now called, for the first time, the Fell Folk. But this wasn't a purely military force. This wasn't, you know, an army or a company or even a battalion. Which I think is also worth noting. This wasn't a military invasion. These people were migrating, which raises questions of why they were doing that. Was there some motivation for them to need to move out of wherever they were coming from? Why do we need to pick up and go? Or are we just trying to establish our dominion over this whole area? Yeah, yeah. That's not to say they didn't have some force for protection, but this was a group looking to settle somewhere, right? Wagons, cattle, women. This was a civilian group. Yeah. But Hazard's people ambushed and killed as many as they could. No, not Hazard himself. He hadn't been born yet. Well, yeah, that's true. He's ancestors. The wild men here that we're talking about. And that's when we're introduced to another character in the story, a very important one, even if he's on stage for a short time, and that is Hazard's father, Buldar. He's said to be a soldier, perhaps an officer in the army of a regional king. That regional king is here called the North King. But again, what's north? Are we talking about the hills? Are we talking about the White Mountains? Are we talking about ended wife? You know, but in the drafts, it was actually the fourth king. And the change from fourth king to North King happened at the same time that Tolkien went from the great kings to the dark kings. So if the Dark Kings were potentially future Nazgul, the fourth king becomes the North King, who's the North King. We're not talking about like the King of Arnor or anything like that. Yeah, it's interesting. It's a regional petty king of some kind. And I doubt the fourth king is a reference to anything we would know. I'm guessing this is sort of a textual ruin. That's what I'm getting a sense of. The suggestion that there were other kings and so on. Sort of like Ishmaelag is another textual word. It's nothing at all. It's not a Sindarin word. It's nothing that has a... Yeah, well, all of these words that we're encountering are all... Hazad and Agar and Bilabar. And so even Tel Elmer. Yeah. But it's interesting why he would change the fourth king to the north king. I mean, we've already talked about the great kings to the dark kings. This almost feels like an attempt to make it even more vague, right? To take it out of a potential time stamp. Not that he would have joined the fourth king of, you know, whatever, because certainly Gondor and Arnor didn't exist, so it wasn't that. We're not talking about the fourth king of Numenor, because at this point Numenoreans were not, you know, back in Middle Earth. So it just takes away any specificity. Well, whatever the case, and whoever the North King was, Buldar comes back from the war with a few souvenirs, as one does. He's got a battle wound. He's got his sword. I mean, where else is he going to put that? And also, whoa, hey, look what I brought back. A woman. Yeah, yeah. And as we discussed, that seems unusual that she wasn't then immediately killed. Most of the people that were captured were killed. Again, I'm getting more of those Old Testament vibes of the whole, you know, wipe them all out. And the ones that like brought property back or brought people back, they were trouble for that. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, Bulldar forced her to marry him instead, which, you know, as we read is something that they had to almost hide. Yeah. I mean, it's a bad thing to force anybody to marry you, but that's not why they had to hide it. They had to hide it because she was a spoil of war and a foreigner. Right. Exactly. Yeah. That's interesting. And, you know, in the part that we skipped, he did this. He forced her to marry her because of her beauty. Like, that's why he didn't kill her, presumably. her beauty was so great that Buldar didn't even want one of their own women like it totally turned him off of the women of the hills of Agar which is interesting because we'll see that Hazard has a similar preference unlike Hazard Buldar had money and influence so it didn't matter to him that people in his community that's true yeah he scorned the I forget exactly what the text says but you know something about scorning the people and their opinions, you know, in the part of the text that we didn't actually read. Yeah. Interesting stuff. Okay. You want to go ahead and read some more, Alan? Yeah. This will actually be the last reading. It's a little longer, but I think you'll understand why we couldn't really break this one up. But when his wife, Elmar, had learned at length enough of the speech of her new kin, she said to Bulldor on a day, I have much to thank thee for, Lord, but think not ever to get my love so. For thou hast torn me from my own people, and from him that I loved, and from the child that I bore him. For them ever shall I yearn and grieve, and give love to none else. Never again shall I be glad, while I am held captive among a strange folk that I deem base and unlovely. so be it said boldar but it is not to be thought that i should let thee go free for thou art precious in my sight and consider well vain is it to seek to escape from me long is the way to the remnant of thy folk if any still live and thou wouldst not go far from the hills of agar ere thou met death or a life far worse than shall be thine in my house base and unlovely thou namest us truly maybe yet true is it also that thy folk are cruel and lawless and the friends of demons thieves are they for our lands are ours from of old which they would rest from us with their bitter blades white skins and bright eyes are no warrant for such deeds. Are they not, said she, then neither are thick legs and wide shoulders, or by what means did ye gain these lands that ye boast of? Are there not, as I hear men say, wild folk in the caves of the mountains, who once roamed here free, ere ye swart folk came hither and hunted them like wolves? But I spoke not of rights, but of sorrow and love. If here I must dwell, then dwell I must, as one whose body is in this place at thy will, but my thought far elsewhere. And this vengeance I will have, that while my body is kept here in exile, the lot of all this folk shall worsen, and thine most. But when my body goes to the alien earth, and my thought is free of it, then in thy kin one shall arise who is mine alone, and with his arising shall come the end of thy people and the downfall of your king. Thereafter Elmar said no more on this matter, and she was indeed a woman of few words while her life lasted, save only to her children. To them she spoke much when none were by, and she sang to them many songs in a strange, fair tongue. But they heeded her not, or soon forgot, save only Hazad, the youngest. And though he was, as were all her children, unlike her in body, he was nearer to her in heart. The songs and the strange tongue he too forgot when he grew up. But his mother he never forgot, and he took a wife late, for no woman of his own folk seemed desirable to him that knew what beauty in a woman might be. There's a lot of sadness in there, a lot of emotion, but also a lot of things to really unpack, including some deep thoughts on them. Oh, yeah. Oh, we're going to get to this. That's why we left so much room in this episode for this portion of the reading. Yeah, there's a lot there for sure. So let's start. Yeah, let's get in. Bulda has a wife, yes, but he doesn't have a wife who loves him. Her name is Elmar, which is obviously why our protagonist is named Tal Elmar. He's named our own mother. Now, it did take her time to learn their language, right? That's the rough tongue that Tal Elmar's voice made sound a little sweeter. But she eventually learned enough of it to tell him what she thought. and I got to say, to her credit, her statement is simple and clear and honestly, it's more than reasonable under the circumstances. She acknowledges that she has a lot to thank Bull Dar for, sparing her life for one. That's presumably the main thing. Perhaps he's even treated her relatively well after all. He was a man of wealth and power in those days. Right, right. And it seems like he was trying to give her something in order to get her love because she makes it plain, don't think you will ever get my love. Yeah, sounds like he was trying. Yeah. I mean, of course, her point is both obvious and completely reasonable. You've ripped me away, not just from my people, but from my family, my husband and my child. You've taken me away from all of that. Yeah. How could you ever expect me to love you? There's a couple of moments in this whole passage, this being the first of them, where she takes something that's morally questionable on a large scale and makes it very personal. Yes. In the sense of ripping me away from my people is bad. It's unforgivable. but there was a personal impact correct to me beyond simply it being, you know, yeah, just wrong. Exactly. That, that, you know, it affected me and my family and my husband. I had a child. Yeah. That child's going to grow up without their mother. It's terrifying. It's what you did is evil. And, and how could I, no matter how thankful I am that I'm alive, even if I end up having children, uh, you know, that's fine. but I have a child that I'm never going to see again and you are the one who took me away from that child. She'll always miss them and grieve that loss. It would be impossible for her to love anyone else, right? In fact, she knows she won't even be happy for the rest of her life while she's a prisoner among these people. Absolutely. She ends, though, with this personal insult. I get it. They're not just a strange folk. There are people that she finds base, which means low, without morals, also unlovely. Now, that latter could be a physical thing, like just shorts for the whole different opposite bills, that kind of thing. And it could just be unattractive. But I tend to think that it's deeper than that, like something in their character that is unlovely, that there's everything about them as a whole makes them an unappealing people to her. And it brings me back to Tal Elmar's idea that you should treat the old people with respect and kindness. She's seeing a lot of like cultural standards that are not what she has grown up with and is accustomed to. And so she sees these people. I think that's why base is the first word there, because that does imply the low morals. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, being in a position of power, Bulldart, frankly, doesn't seem trouble at all. He gives her a verbal shrug of the shoulders. So be it. He doesn't care. Yeah. Doesn't matter if you aren't happy or don't love me. You're not going to be released. You're not going anywhere. Yeah. Primarily because Bulldart values her. It's really interesting that line, thou art precious in my sight, sounds so biblical. It does. It also sounds Gollum, but it also sounds biblical. I mean I literally think Isaiah has a line about the heart pressure from my sight but I wonder if that was always the case I wonder if we'll find out any more about this part of the story or if this is just the set up and we're not going to find it anymore yeah I mean like what about 30 years from now 40 years from now if you like her because she's pretty is she going to be pretty in her old age enough that you still want her around as your wife you know especially since she doesn't love you she's never going to love you dude she's not that into you definitely not but you know don't even think about trying to escape he says you are far far away from the remnant of your people again who is that and where are they I really want to know but also it's a rough world out there you're going to have a better life here of course you will he's still a man of wealth and power and she could not possibly survive on her own in the wilderness trying to find her people. Yeah. I wonder if, had Elmar ended her statement with, never again shall I be glad while I am held captive among a strange folk and just drop the basin unlovely, what would have happened here in the story? Oh, that's a good question. Because that does seem to be what furthers the argument here. Right, yeah. Fortunately, we get this argument instead. And it is rich with some things to talk about. It really is. I'm really glad she did that because otherwise we wouldn't have this stuff to talk about, right? Bulldar, base and unlovely? Fine, maybe. But let's turn that around. This is very much, you know, what about you-ism? You know? Your folk are cruel, lawless, and the friends of demons. So we come back to this idea of the demons that make their weapons. I still think it's hyperbole but could we be talking about, from the perspective of the wild men like elves or maybe dwarves but I'm thinking elves almost later on in the notes Tolkien will say that the Numenorean's goal is to ally with the cruels of the north talking about the elves of Lindon the cruels, so if the elves are cruel to the wild men demons, I don't know Yeah, because we've got to remember this is from the perspective of the wild men. Who would they perceive as being deemed? The elves, immortal beings who have eyes of fire. And yeah, I can see why they'd see the elves as demonic. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. At least as an explanation of... I mean, it's interesting because we do know that the humans in Middle Earth developed all sorts of interesting mythologies around the gods. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right. That were not true. And this was something that Sauron sort of fed into. Capitalized, for sure. You know, maybe this is part of that, right? That their explanation for these immortal creatures was, oh, they're demons. They're demons. They must be demons, right. Yeah. That's the idea. Also, thieves of the land. This land belonged to Buldar's people, these wild men from of old, he says. But we'll get to the question of how accurate that is. Yeah, exactly. From of old. But yeah, we'll see about that. And then he ends, Bulldar, with what I can only view as a very potent anti-colonial statement put in the words of, well, not a hero of the story. Instead, the view of somebody who we don't normally consider. Bulldar says, and this is, listen to this, this is strong words. White skins and bright eyes are no warrant for driving a people off their lands. In other words, your race does not entitle you to commit genocide or steal the land. That's wow. But before we discuss the anticolonial nature of this statement, we do need to hear from Elmar because she's got some. Oh, she does. She does indeed. Yeah. Yeah. If our nature, white skins and bright eyes, isn't a valid reason to take your land, then what about your people? That's right. your physical nature, the thick legs and wide shoulders, right? That's precisely what gained you this land in the first place. You weren't native to this land. You took it from people who were here before you and you even hunted them Now while this would be a perfect spot to talk about the Druidine I mean that is after all precisely who Elmar is referring to here I think The sidebar is a bit too long so tune into the postscript for the episode to learn more. Before we go on to what this is about for Elmar, let's chat about whether this is Tolkien's anti-colonial stance coming through. Yeah, I mean, I think here's the thing, we often think, and I know I'm guilty of this, thinking of Tolkien as very traditional, right? I mean, he's a little stodgy. He's a little, you know. And you might imagine somebody who's very traditional being very pro-British Empire and all that, but I got to tell you, that can't be further from the truth. His letters make it very clear. Letter 53, I want to start with that one in 1943. He writes, I love England, not Great Britain, and certainly not the British Commonwealth. Grr. that's like the 1950s version of an emoji that he just adds there that's the angry face emoji british commonwealth grrr i mean could he make his opinions more clear a year later in letter 77 also to christopher he writes i should have hated the roman empire in its day as i do as i do i love that he still does yeah it's 1955 or 1944 i still hate the roman empire um and though he says remained a patriotic roman citizen yeah while preferring a free goal and seeing good in carthaginians which of course you know carthage like just destroy carthage i mean nobody in rome would have seen good in carthaginians but tolkien would have talking with him he's very much a contrary in so many ways just another year after that so now 1945 Tolkien writes again to Christopher this time it's letter 100 I know nothing about British or American imperialism in the Far East that does not fill me with regret and disgust yeah and of course even a cursory reading of Aldarion and Arendes and Calabeth shows that he doesn't exactly paint the colonialism of the Numenoreans in a positive way. Not at all, no that's when things go bad It's one thing to come over and help the people. And there is a little bit of that, that sort of like white savior sort of thing. We also see that with Han Beri Han and the sort of noble savage. There's some other tropes that are still a little bit on the, you know, uncomfortable side. But clearly when it comes to this sort of imperialism and colonialism, not a big fan. Yeah, I wonder if he's – even though there are those signs of the sort of noble savage and white savior thing, I wonder if he's still always playing with that idea that that can never – That's still not good. Not go bad. Right, exactly. You can't – yeah. Yeah. I mean even – because you think about it, the one thing that saves Gondor is an act of sort of the opposite of colonialism. They give up land. They give Calanarthon to the Aotheod and they become the Rohirrim. But even that act drives out the Dunlendings and is still problematic and results in there being trouble later on for Gondor. Yep. So I think he's sort of saying this is always going to be complicated when you do this kind of thing. Yeah. And there's always going to be trouble coming from it. Yeah, I mean, I think that is the setup in the overall Numenorean story in the Callopath, is that there's an inevitability to the downfall of Numenore. Correct, correct. The moment that they started exploiting the resources. It may start as teaching you agriculture and bringing you technology, but we all know where that's going to lead. It leads to a death cult. And it's inevitable. It's inevitable, but human sacrifices. Yeah, maybe human sacrifices beyond the inevitable portion, hopefully. But yeah, certainly the bad aspects of it, the exploitation, the driving out of people, that is an inevitability. And it's something that we begin to see the moment Aldarion looks at the coast of Middle Earth and sees resources, things to take. The minute he sees things to take is the beginning of the downfall of Numenor. Yep. Yeah. I have to say, though, there's one other, and this is one that didn't come to me right away, as I was sort of thinking through sort of these statements of Tolkien's, both in The Legendary Man and his letters, where he makes it very clear, you know, what his stance is on these kinds of issues. I actually think of Faramir. There's a line, it's one of my favorite lines in the text. You'll recognize it when I get there. But I don't think I'd ever realized just how anti-colonial it is. But let's go back to this line. So first off, I want to say Faramir, no character speaks for Tolkien directly. But in a footnote to letter 180, Tolkien says, as far as any character is like me, it is Faramir. Except that I lack what my characters possess. Let the psychoanalysts note, courage. I love his little sense of humor there. But I say that to say this, because I think that Tolkien often puts very important words into Faramir's mouth, maybe more than anybody other than Gandalf. And one of those is this wonderful and oft-repeated line, one of my favorites in all of the legendarium, about not loving the bright sword for its sharpness or the arrow for its swiftness or the warrior for his glory. But in that very same paragraph, Tolkien tells us, I believe, what he really thinks about colonial powers. Faramir desires to see Minas Tirith in peace, quote, high and fair, beautiful as a queen among other queens, not a mistress of many slaves, nay, not even a kind mistress of willing slaves. That speaks British Commonwealth to me in a way that I don't know that it did when I first read that as a 14-year-old. You know what I mean? Right. That it doesn't even matter how kind you are. to your slaves. Exactly. Even if they're willing. They are your peers. They are equal to you. They are a queen among other queens. This is potent. And I feel like we miss this sort of at our peril. If you don't catch this aspect of the story of Tal Omar, I think honestly you're missing the point of Tal Omar. Or one of the points, I should say. Because there are a few others, but this is a big one early on. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. To say nothing of where he may have been going. Yeah, I know exactly. Who knows where he's going to go with this? Yeah. It's such a really explicit statement that he doesn't really do in anything else except for those letters. I mean, this is very – white skin and bright eyes are no warrant for this. Wow. Yeah. Could you call out – yeah. Goodness. Yeah. So powerful stuff. Yeah. Okay. What do you think is a Commonwealth subject, James, from Australia? Well, don't let me comment on the current state of things here. There's something to be said for alternative, for other systems. But anyway, that and other colonial matters aside for now. Yeah. At the end of the day, for Elmar, this isn't a matter of who has the legal right to this land. Right. This is another one of those examples we talked about before of her not just making this kind of a principled ethical issue. Yeah. This isn't just a global wrong. This is a personal wrong. Exactly. Yeah. It isn't a matter of who has the legal right to this land. The wild folk that were hunted, the Druidine, the people of Bulldar, or the fell folk from the east. For Elmar, it's about sorrow and love. Deeply personal. Right. Yeah. She says it's not about rights. It's about sorrow and love. Yeah. My refusal to love you has nothing to do with the fact that you stole the land for the Nerudine. I mean, sure, that's bad. Right. Exactly. But that's not why I don't love you. And I think that can get lost in a lot of discussion about rights. Yeah, oh, it can, very much so. I mean, it's good to talk in those sort of abstract terms, but also to never forget that these are real people. Yeah, they're real people at the core of every one of these stories, yeah. That are treated cruelly. Absolutely. in fact if anything that's the thing that will help us not do that ourselves and helping to make sure that society doesn't do that going forward is realizing these are individuals who are harmed by these actions not just a vague abstract notion of a people exactly so for her it's about sorrow and love if I have to live here then I'll live here but I won't be thinking here this is just the place my body is not my spirit Ah, so good. And it makes me think a little bit of on-fairy stories and the importance of escape. You know, this idea of, you know, we don't fault the prisoner for thinking of something beyond the four walls of concrete that he's imprisoned in. She's the prisoner. She's the prisoner, absolutely. And she is thinking of anything except what is here. Yeah. And then she gets that little vengeance curse on him, and I love this, right? Oh, yeah. While I'm kept here, your people's circumstances, they're going to get worse. And your family more than everybody else. That's right. Yeah. And, of course, we're not going to, you know, we don't get the full fulfillment of this. It would be interesting to see where it went. Yeah, because I have questions about who the downfall of your king is, but we'll get to that. Oh, yeah, we'll get to that. But if that's not bad enough, you know, when I do die, a descendant of mine who is mine alone will mark the end of your people. And if that hasn't been made clear to you yet who she's referring to, that is, of course, Tal Elmar, the hero of our story. I mean, he is very much the descendant of hers. Right. All of her children, including Hazad, were like Bulldar. All of Hazad's children were like Hazad, except for Tal Elmar. But then we get that line that I was referencing earlier, the downfall of your king. We have no clue who she means here. Is she talking about that North King that Buldar had been fighting for? Right. I mean, he'd gone with the North King to the muster of Ishmaelag or whatever. Or does she mean the king, which we'll later find out is Sauron. Is this a huge legendarium prophecy about the downfall of Sauron or is this just a local king? So, I mean, we will come back and revisit this for sure because it's only later on that we're explicitly told in a note that one of the king that's referred to is Sauron. Which is actually problematic. I know it makes it worse, it makes it harder. We'll get to that. But it's really interesting. I do want to touch a little bit on it now, just sort of our first impressions of this prophecy. If it is Sauron, where would this have gone? What would tell... How would Tal Elmar be related? Yeah. Unless, okay, at the end of the story, we don't get an end, right? We get him meeting the Numenoreans. Not even rightly. Yeah, it's just the beginning, I think. I think that's just the inciting of it. Oh, totally just the beginning. Yeah. Because then we get the little hints, little suggestions that Tal Elmar goes with them and then ends up having these adventures. Right. Does his involvement with the Numenoreans give them some sort of insight that enabled them to then take down? But no, because that's the time. I mean, our Farazan comes with a mighty army. and it wouldn't matter what Tal Elmar did in the story. It's not going to lead to the capture of Sauron and it's sure not going to lead to the Battle of the Last Alliance. Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. Given what we know about the Akalabeth, I can't see Tal Elmar having a role. No. No matter what he did. I mean, he could have gone back and become a great general and it wouldn't matter. Yeah. I mean, Arfairazan shows up with so much in terms of numbers that Sauron's army's like, forget this, I'm out of here, pal. Yeah. And Sauron's like, well, I guess if I can't get anybody to fight for me, oh, no, I'll have to be your prisoner. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no. Yeah, so we'll continue to speculate on this, but it's not clear to me at all. I think when she says the downfall, I've got to lean towards the very king that was involved in the battle that caused her to be taken captive in it with this north king. So some petty regional king. Who's presumably dead already. Well, maybe not. I mean, in the time of Tal Elmar. Oh, by the time of Tal Elmar, yes. Oh, yeah, you're right. So how can Tal Elmar... Okay, the downfall of your king, meaning like you as a people will be leaderless. They don't really have a king, these people in the hills of Agar. They have the master of the town. We're not really told who they're... They're kings other than maybe this North King who was once a fourth king. Yeah. I don't know. And I don't know that we'll really get to know. I don't think we will not. That's the sad thing about this. I mean, it's fun to speculate. Yeah. But we can't. We can never be right. We can't look at the answers in the back of the book. Yeah, exactly. There are none. There's nothing we can do to figure this out. Yeah. What do you make of the line, when my body goes to the alien earth? is she only referring to the fact here that away from her people the earth is alien yeah i don't know it's just an interesting phrase it's not something that sounds doesn't sound very tulkinian and no i that struck me as well as not seeming particularly tulkinian it certainly doesn't seem edine you know i mean if if she is of the edine if the fell folk are are related to to the Numenoreans. Well, the practice, I'm, I'm wondering now about practices of, of, Oh, like funerary rites, funerary rites and so on, because this doesn't sound like something you would do if you had a, a funeral pyre, you wouldn't talk about your body going to the earth. I don't think, I don't know. No, I can't imagine that she would. Yeah. I don't know the, but I do think she means specifically that the earth here is alien. I think that's clear. Yeah. But going to the earth at all, sort of the idea of a funerary rite is interesting. Yeah. Right. Well, whatever she thinks here, she never talks about this again. Not once during the rest of her life. Now, she does talk to her kids a lot, but she doesn't talk to anybody else. Like Tal Elmar, again, very much. He is like her reincarnated in so many ways. Yeah. He's a man of few words, doesn't talk to people, stands there, looks at everybody as they talk. She, too, a woman of few words. Yeah. But she does talk to her kids, including her youngest, Hazard. Right. And he said to be nearer to her in heart, even though he looked like the rest of her kids. That is not like her. Right. None of them did. And when she spoke to them and to him, she sang in a foreign language. I love language in Tolkien because it's always so significant. I mean, you can think even of all the way back in The Hobbit with the bird coming and, you know, bard knowing and understanding the bird, like genetic language transmission and things like that. Right, right, right. Which is what we see later in this story in many ways. Like, Tal Omar has a dream, a language that he hears in his dreams, and it turns out to be the language that he hears the Numenoreans speak. And that's what makes me think that, again, we have no idea the origins of the fell folk. But the fact that Teloar understands the language of the Numenoreans a bit does strongly imply, not strongly imply, but strongly suggests that there's some connection to the Numenoreans here. Yeah, although, I mean, the Numenorean language is itself descended from what the Edain spoke. So it's really hard to say. And we'll get into some of the weird Elvish connection as well, because, of course, he dreams of the Eldar and the Numenoreans think he's an elf. They think he's an elf. We'll get to all that. Which is wild. Like, how do you think a man is an elf? If you're a Numenorean as well, I mean, it's one thing if a wild man thought that. Right. I mean, a wild man would expect to think that a Numenorean is an elf, but for a Numenorean to think that's wild. Yeah, we'll get to all that. While the rest of the kids didn't pay attention or they forgot, Hazard was different. He eventually forgot the songs and the language, but he never forgot Elmar herself. No, he did not. And like his father, again, so many of these things that we see generation to generation, he didn't find any woman of his people that he wanted to marry, right? He knew what a woman of beauty was. And I'm not saying this is some sort of an Oedipal complex, But clearly, Hazard saw his mother as the epitome of beauty. Now I can't help thinking of Bones in the Soup and this being Tolkien and his own deep respect and admiration for his mother, who he really, I'm not going to say idolized, but elevated for sure. Yes. And saw as an ideal. Yeah. And in many respects, that was because of the sacrifices that she made. And I wonder if I can't help but think Hazard would come to the same conclusions. Oh, yeah, he'd have to. I mean, her entire life for Hazard would be sacrifice. Yeah. And like Hazard, Tolkien lost his mother in his youth. Yeah. Just like Tal Elmar as well. Yeah. I mean, we're not told anything about Tal Elmar's mother other than that Hazard married lead in life. But she's not in the picture. She's clearly dead. Yeah. So, oh, ran away after having 20-some-odd kids. Get me out of here. No, I just feel like there are some very interesting connections and things that come up. Now, still, in the part that we did not read, Hazad does, even though he doesn't find his women attractive, the women of his people, he does eventually marry, not by capturing a felled folk woman. It wasn't easy, though, because Elmar's prophecy had already begun to come true. His people in general had suffered, but specifically his line, right? The line of Bulldar and then Hazad. They lost their wealth and power. He's a poor man now. Yeah. Not that Hazard knew about his mom's prophecy. Remember, she never spoke of it again. But he loved her enough to name his youngest son, who must have reminded Hazard of Elmah at his birth. Oh, of course. The fair skin and the gray eyes. Yeah. We should note, by the way, that this is the exact point, and it might be the reason that I stopped our reading here, where Tolkien's rejected first page ends, and the rest of the text is in the state that Christopher calls primary composition, meaning no edits. Yep. I love that primary composition. It makes it sound so much more, I don't know, fancy and serious than it really is. It just means he hasn't gotten around to fixing anything yet. All right. The songs and the strange tongue Bartleman too forgot when he grew up, but that's because Bartleman forgets nearly everything. James, what does Bartleman have in his bag for us today? Neil from California asks a question that I think is really interesting to consider in light of where we're at in Unfinished Tales. Which of the lesser-known Numenorean rulers do you wish was fleshed out more? Oh, all of them. Well, true. So it's interesting, of course, you know, Tolkien ends up listing, you know, what is it, 24 different rulers in the line of Elros. We do find out a decent amount, even in Appendix B, but especially in the Akalabeth, about a bunch of them. But mostly the later ones. But not others, yeah. So the period that seems the least fleshed out, I mean, obviously there's a lot of super early stuff. Like the first few would be interesting to know. We know nothing about, you know, like Taramondil. And we know even less about Vardimere, who's like, ah, never mind, I'm not too old. But the other period that I think is really interesting is the period between Ancalame and Minashtir. Ah, okay. So we get three rulers, Anarion, Surion, and Telperion. That's right, a queen. The second queen after Ancalame, that we're told almost nothing about, but things must have happened. Well, things must have happened. Well, certainly things happened in Middle Earth because this, they were ruling at the time, this is when the rings were being forged and everything. So it's interesting because, you know, of course, Ancalame, Aldarion and Aurendis' daughter, ruled and she's the ruler at the time that the permanent havers. Yes, that's right, 1200. And then, you know, we have these three rulers that I mentioned and then you get Tar Minnistir, who was, of course, the one that came to the rescue, ultimately came to the rescue of Gil-galad and really, really kicked off the downfall of Numenor in as much as they then started to get this lust for power after. Right. Well, and that's also when the envy of the Eldar started coming into play. Yes, exactly. He said specifically to have loved the Eldar, but he envied them. He envied them. But those three in the middle, like in the line of Elros chapter in Unfinished Tales, we're told nothing. Very little. about Anarion and Surion other than how long that, yeah, that's all we're told. In a way, I feel like that's a direct connection to what Sarah and I talked about with the story of Aldarion and Herendus and how Ankalame, sort of the generational trauma that she was not only the victim of, but then the perpetrator of that in the sense that she like forbade her granddaughters from getting married and all of this stuff that was just really nasty. It's no surprise that her great-granddaughter, Telperion, doesn't get married. And that's why Minashtir ends up becoming king, because he's actually not her descendant. He's the son of the second child of Tarsurion. So he's a cousin. I mean, yes, he's still in the line of Aldarion. But he's distant. So, yeah, I feel like that's just such a result of that. Like, it took that long for the line to recover from Altarion and Arendtus. Yeah, yeah. I mean, because from that point onwards, things start to happen. Things start to move, right. That's when he, yeah, because, you know, because once you get past Minasur, you get to the bad guys, right? You get to Kiryatan, who, you know, actually forces his dad to give up the throne early. Right. You get a Tadamir, the great. It's sort of, if you have to add the great to your name, then maybe you're not yeah and that's the time when the shadow explicitly is said to have fallen so yeah it does start to really to roll in after that I I want even more I know we already have a lot on Tar Palantir but man he's the one I admire the most again with some of those biblical references the idea of a good king trying to turn the nation around after a series of bad kings, but it's too late. Momentum has this weight of its own. But I just, I mean, Tar Palantir, he's the one I'd want to know more about. But in fairness, he was fleshed out. So I guess I really can't say. Well, yeah, there were two paragraphs written about him instead of one. That's true. I mean, like almost a bit. Yeah. He gets a bit more in our colonists. He does get a bit more. He actually gets more than our Farazan, to be honest. Yes, that's true. Our Farazan has enough written about him elsewhere. Yeah, I think that's a very good point because the story is so focused for us on what's happening in Middle-earth at that point, in Eregion, with the forging of the Rings of Power. My goodness, the kingdom of Numenor is doing things at this point. We have no idea what that is. We have no idea. No idea. How are those permanent havens growing and becoming what would eventually under or after Monastir become these settlements and sort of bases for the expansion of power? Difference between a small outpost and a military base that's going to be for the projection of power. So, yeah, that's a fair point. Those three in particular would be interesting. I'd want to know about Portara Narayan. That's the son of Ankalame who has to know he was not wanted. Yep. Who has to know that he was a pawn just like Ankalame herself was. But unlike Ankalame, who actually kind of liked that, she is said to have enjoyed the sport of playing her mom against her dad. Yep. I don't think Anarian was the same. I don't get that feeling. We don't know. No, we don't. We just know that she despised him so much that, you know, even his daughters, she was like, nope, you can't marry. You know, it's just awful. Yeah. So those three, Anarian, Surian, and Telperian. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting stuff. Good question, though. So thank you, Neil. Yeah, absolutely. Well, folks, thank you for joining us for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please join us again next week when Tal Elmar spots some unlikely visitors and Hazard gives him a history lesson. It's going to be fun. It will be. Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP. 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