‘28 Years Later: The Bone Temple’ Is Gut-Ripping and Gut-Wrenching. Plus: Mona Fastvold on ‘The Testament of Ann Lee’!

I'm Sean Fennesy. I'm Amanda Davins. And this is the big picture conversation show about bone temples and shaker profits. Today on the show we are breaking down 28 years later Colin the Bone Temple with the bone god himself Chris Ryan the Alphas back We'll be hanging dong later also later in this episode. I'll be joined by Mona fast-vold the co-writer and director of the Testament of Anne Lee a combo bio-pick musical about the spiritual leader of the shaker religious movement in 18th century England and America Sounds like very normal content. Do me a favor. Don't set me up so that I tell some incredibly like revealing weird story And then you're like and now my interview will circle back on bodice ripping right before that condo Anne Lee is a wild movie fascinating and vicious Amanda and I both really like to we'll talk about it a little bit before our conversation with Mona Amanda Cyford is at the center of it as Anne Lee and his incredible sticker on for the conversation It's a nice continuation. I think of my conversation with Brady Corby from last year about the brutalist and the way that they make movies together So if you are interested in Anne Lee go see the movie and listen to that condo But first I wanted to point out a couple things to you guys one This podcast has been nominated for best TV and film podcast by the iHeart podcast awards. Did you did you know that Chris? So what are you gonna do about it? When are you gonna start the bot army voting right now? Well, it's gonna be interesting to see who claims third chair credit for this Ah, and will it be yeah like what are there? Is this where Puehels surprise when they start calling out of the crack? I couldn't possibly accept Okay, do they do they do they enumerate who the actual nominees are by name right? I want to know it's sort of like the producers thing where it's like you have a certain number of names that can be submitted So of course myself Amanda jack Sanders we make the show every episode sure you Chris Ryan An essential part of this operation Philosophically, yeah, but in the material sense. Yeah. Yeah. Would you say you've got it over say Tracy Lutz or Alex Ross Perry or I have my place that's not really my place to say. I know how I feel You know what I mean? What do I Joanna or Mal like what other names could we put on the list? Sounds like you guys don't need me any more honey So they have lay then yeah, some really strong voices. Okay, so it are there even enough natural stones in the world to make that many trophies You know, it's a really good question. What is the iHeart podcast award trophy look like do we know? I don't know. I would like to hear about um Chris's plans for the acceptance speech Yeah, if you if you'd like to be involved Concept it out right now. You gotta get a hornblower back out there That would be funny Couple of other things to mention do you guys Thanks, you're a part of it as well. Obviously um Dante more is going back to Oregon. We discussed this story because they they just got Dylan Raleigh from the braska Oregon did I'm I'm a portal guy. I we know that about you. I okay weirdly. I do know what that means Do you want to explain that for everyone else? He's only a sophomore. I'm learning Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure it's off for you. The 20 career starts under So I I see why I think he thought he was leaving Mm-hmm. I think that I'll be curious to see what happens now because Dylan Raleigh was not cheap now I don't really know he's gonna set more is gonna play again because so many guys would like to more years of eligibility He's not gonna play there's no way because a bunch of guys from the defensive line to Oregon also stayed and they didn't think they were like DeMari Washington is going back. That's really weird. They just they get paid pretty decently to stay in contact and people said this They said that they this could be an option. I'm you know, this is not a jets podcast But this really materially impacts me. I think this is great news for the jets Well, did you see that like Tyson sin was getting offered like six million dollars to go to my amy? Yeah, yeah I Don't want the jets to draft a underdeveloped young kid and then get thrust into the worst situation in professional sports So for me as a fan I actually think it'd be fine if they went oh in 17 and then got archmaning. That sounds fine Are you are you oh wow and you do you want to be in the archmaning business? Yeah, yeah, it worked for you. Why you know why not true true? I can't change the Woody Johnson fact of the jets But I can get as many good players as possible into the mix. That's all we can do. Okay, is arch good? I improved okay. I just have seen like control Concern trolling pad. I think if you're gonna draft archmaning. I like Erangelin like as a dude I don't really know how what the experience of cheering for his I think team is but I think you need like a quarterback whisper if you're gonna draft my the secret The underbelly of my take is that I think this means that the jets will really struggle and Glenn will get fired And then they will hire an offensive guru you fire that guy Kevin Pettulo. Yeah, there's now discussions that he's just been demoted Much like you're here, you know moved out of the third chair If we win the iHeart award I will I will saw mine and have and give you the other Yeah, Kevin Pettulo got demoted and I listened to 45 minute podcasts already about who we should hire. I've had an extensive conversation Would sack an Andy about who we should hire. Okay, there's a lot of ideas being thrown around in that group chat There's a lot of emotions being done around that group shot a lot of fan fiction being written about Brian Dable and Jalen hurts his relationship and the 2017 national championship wow Whether or not like they're boys or they hate each other So it's like it's an intense time. It's very sensitive. That's just me I know I and I feel weird because this is definitely the topic I am most conversant on in all of the world This is not interesting to 90% of the audience but Phoebe walked by me the other day I'm like let yet today actually I was like saw that I had a Dexter filkins New Yorker piece Up on the screen she was like how is that I was thinking of reading it and I was like Your usual Dexter filkins just really Well reported in the every other tab was like video essays About fucking my Daniels So yeah, thank you for entertaining this thank you this little side Your patience um just since last we met. Well, this is just sort of like yeah news and news and notes Been looking at earrings. Should I get my ears pierced in 2026? Well, you got such rave reviews for no performance at the glow Yes, I mean those were clip-ons. Yeah, those were clip-ons. They were borrowed from my friend Lauren who took them off her ears on Saturday night And gave them to me to wear Sunday night I really liked them those were really nice fancy earrings. So I can't start there And the thing about piercing your ears. I don't know if you guys remember this from having sisters or girlfriends And you know when you were teenagers You have to leave the studs in for a while. Yeah, and that I could never make it through leaving the studs in for however many weeks I've lived too much like my mother It was there was something about the face symmetry where I can't wear small earrings because that's just really Then I and I was just like I'm not ready emotionally for this But now you've crossed but then I did I felt really fancy wearing wearing the earrings I liked that so I mean obviously there are clip-on earrings out in the world if you do get them pierced Yeah, I get to film you and post it on the YouTube channel Why because you think that that would be painful I think it would just be amusing now like IVF and two kids like I'm good Whatever it may or I'm fine. They can shoot whatever I think you should do it. I think you should do it Okay, yeah, but I haven't solved for the problem of the six weeks Until they or I may be your hair now. Maybe they've improved times. You should know you should know Beanie on the show for like six days cover your ears for every episode. I think that would be good If it just was a countdown in doomsday. Yeah, well deadpool being doomsday. Well, he returned for sure Yeah, did you see the Rousseau's tweeted? I did see this a very cryptic thing about these are not trailers and they are not teasers. They're clues and stories well There's gonna be like a Extinction level event hitting all of these characters like in the first five minutes Hmm, I suppose that's possible, but how is this a clue then what happens to the baby? Oh, I don't know I don't know and also in which does an extinction level event happening and one Multiverse affect all my I mean, it depends on the kind of event and I also don't I don't know who Steve Rogers baby is I just want to say that I kind of got you think it's on day more what like what are you talking about here? I used to be really into cable cable. Yeah, the character cable. I travel read his comments. I was like oh you switched to you Me and Bill keep inspectable float. I think I knew about cable made an appearance and there's a baby and cable that like they have I think it's made in cable and Yeah, Josh problem. Yeah, I know, but I'm not oh, I'm not too. No, I didn't there's a baby in cable It's Nathan summers. It's like Jean Grey and psychotic kid havoc. Yeah, yeah, yeah, is it character? I thought it was the character There's something he's cable a person or a movie. He's a person. Yeah, so there's a baby inside the person No, he's just And then there's like a new Terminator influence okay run of extra comics with time travel and apocalypse Yeah, he Bishop was the man. Yeah, he had big guns anyway, um, doomsday Yeah, every episode to start with the doomsday update. It's like the new Odyssey, but we hate it You know, what's going on with these fucking idiots? What's like a really good movie? Let's talk about 28 years later the bone temple That was a lot of throat clearing for an episode about a movie that I think we're all pretty excited about so this is the Follow up to last summers 28 years later, which was the follow up to two previous 28 films It featured the return of Danny Boyle These scripts are written by Alex Garland. It was their reunion back then. It was your number one movie of 2025 Neade Costa the filmmaker is stepping in now for the bone temple. It is again written by Garland She is bringing with her her the cinematographer she's been working with recently who Probably best known for his work as Steve McQueen Sean Bobbitt. Let's talk about him a little bit And the film stars as 28 years later starred Ray Fines Jack O'Connell after the ending of 28 years later is back in a big role here Alfie Williams who played spike in the last film Aaron Kellyman and Chi Lewis Perry also return uh Taking place after the events of the previous film spike is inducted into sur Jimmy crystals gang of acrobatic killers and a post apocalyptic Britain ravaged by the rage virus meanwhile dr. Ian kelsen forms a new relationship with potentially world changing consequences Chris, I'm gonna start with you. What did you think of the bone temple unbelievably almost Loved it almost as much as I love the first one if if there's 10 better movies than this this year. It's gonna be nuts uh, and it works in very different ways than than the first 28 years later me at least I mean like I had such an emotional reaction to the first one of you know The third film in this series and need a costa just has like a completely different visual language that she's using I think her camera is much more Of a witness than it is like a protagonist in this film, but in a very cool way And I kept thinking about her recent appearance on the criterion closet We should talk to a lot about come and see And the cranes are flying and movies about What happens to the sort of collective psyche of people after they've gone through like a war or You know in this case in apocalypse and I think I think that's really what was driving a lot of the stuff in this movie And it's a brutal watch, but it's also a really really really funny movie. Yeah What do you think? Yeah, I mean it's it's definitely gnarly and I would say 28 years later was extremely gnarly um and also Had a few more action set pieces built within the gnarliness and I would say that this is just is pure gnarly and then um honestly like Pure entertainment any movie where ray finds his dancing is just it's automatically in my personal hall of fame It's really important. I was also thinking about I've obviously been listening to both the marini supreme score But also the marini supreme playlist and If you build your movie text textually around like 80s new wave I'm in you know like I just absolutely having a moment Yes, so but so there are a lot of You know flourishes and as you'd like need a costume it brings her own um sensibility to this well established world and it like really played for me and I'm not someone Who likes to see people skinned alive? Yes, this is Two things one. This is an extremely violent movie more violent in the last film I would argue probably more violent than the previous two installments in part because it's really more of a pure horror movie It's not just a zombie movie, but it is There's a kind of funny games ask torture aspect to the movie Yeah, that's your that human viscera not just the zombie apocalypse stuff And then also I think because you know needed a cost that did make did have a kind of candy man reboot that she made a few years ago She understands the mechanics of horror movies. Yeah, this movie is using those mechanics much more so than what boil was doing Which you know is a really excitingly messy movie in a lot of ways and there's a lot of like Risk-taking formally is happening in that movie this movie is more of a classical Uh horror structured film It doesn't have as much incident though and it doesn't have as many set pieces And I think that there will be some people who struggle with it because quote unquote not as much happens Or you could say by the time you get to the end of it like it didn't change No, I think a great story of the story I mean there's two rather large revelations towards the end of the film and I think one of them it might just be like kind of lost to history You know, I mean, it's a little ambiguous, but meaning if they don't make a third film Uh, no the third film I think seems nailed on to happen, but like the this the there's things that happen towards the end of the movie that are like Could be world-changing, but also great. Yes. The sands of time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah We will get into that and we'll get spoilery as we go along here The thing that jumped out to me as I thought about it immediately after it ended was that This is a really interesting installment in the second in a trilogy. Yeah run Yeah, it's technically the fourth 28 movie, but since these movies were conceived together and Garland wrote them together And I never sold my garland stock and I never will and this movie again proves to me that he is so good at not just creating propulsive action but blending theme and deep ideas about the modern world into Conventionally entertaining movies, but This is like in I'm not saying it's as good as these films, but it accomplishes a similar thing to Empire Strikes Back Dark Knight two towers last Jedi oceans 12 where it's like This is the place to take some risks to do some different things. They may feel like side quests they can end in really like Beguiling and upsetting ways because you know that there's something else coming on the other side You know there's gonna be a third installment. It sounds like Danny Boyle is coming back for that third installment I think so. Yes. Yeah based on what we see and what we know about it Right, and so this movie it leans a bit away from spike the characters Yeah, you know, he's not the central focus of the story for much of it though. He is present throughout the entire movie And it leans towards Jimmy crystal and his seven finger fingers these these these bandits these evil bandits And then dr. Kelsen and Samson who is the the alpha that you mentioned who is an infected Mega man. Yeah, who With the heart of gold Harder don't that's right in the first film he is shown as like a kind of infected leader One that seems to be evolving and I think in the backdrop of that you start to think about like you know Steps of evolution even for some for for zombies, you know, and like what does that mean? Um got you know like the point you're making about the second film thing is really interesting because I thought that this was a tremendously cool way to world build without showing it like going deeper into like these different characters that we had Maybe seen in the background of the first film, you know, obviously Jack O'Connell's Jimmy shows up in the very beginning in the very end of of the first film um with some spots in the middle uh and dr. Kelsen exists as like kind of like wizard vaz's character in the first film but is Obviously very humanized in this movie and is vulnerable and weird and funny and longing and I felt like I understood so much more about the state of the world without ever getting a Voice over or title card explaining what was happening anywhere outside the Yeah, and even the way they introduced the the new characters um who are Kind of stuck between the the fingers and Alva and alpha and everything um but but what those characters what they've been up to how they're living where they're living Just kind of gives you more pieces of like okay like This is how the virus infected some people and how other people are and so it expands it yeah But without having to do any exposition no one in that house says well Four years ago we like put up this fence and like here is how the combination code lax there's it's just um you just accept Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's a really good point because It being years later in our days or months later It gives it like an added sense of like acceptance around what has happened to this this part of the world We know that it's only really these British Isles right that are trapped in this way that the the world at large Europe at large has Staved off the virus, but these people are stuck. Yeah, there's this funny thing happening where you know kelsen The fines character at one point says that she's starting to basically forget what life was like before the infection before the outbreak of the virus Right, well, he's talking with Jimmy fingers character Jack McConell, yeah, yeah, and he's like your eight so you probably don't remember here's what I remember Yeah, it's like I don't remember going to shops. Yeah, and he's like the I remember having a personal computer But I did you know, but I don't but like now big chunks of time or disappearing and on the flip side of that the experience of this film Is it's being released just matter of months after the original? So you actually do have this sense of continuity It's just a great experience because you have the sense of continuity with the characters in the story You don't have to like teach yourself anything before going to it, but it's just different enough and just It's got that new perspective from the casa of like okay Well, what if we shot it more like this and what if it felt more like that and what if really the infected were a tertiary Worry, I mean, there's a couple of points here where some of the more accomplished killers Uh in this movie treat and infected running at them like uh, who cares and I'll just It's like ninja warfare. Yeah, they're all samarized out there who have a ton of experience managing and we see that you know There is this other group of people that you're alluding to that are in the film who are sort of just like native villagers who protect themselves And occasionally attempt to kind of hunt and explore the world or and they have way less experience even 28 years later Way less ability right to effectively kill These these you know fast moving creatures and that was obviously the innovation of the original film was that it felt like very novel And knew that the zombies were fast But we're kind of like dispense with that. There's been so much zombie stuff in 28 years We need to find other places to go and I really like where garland wanted to go and there's there's two tracks of it And I think they're they're obviously speaking to each other. There's the kelson track the sort of the healer And then there's jimmy crystal and the fingers and the sort of like Cold rage and opportunity to pursue like a cult apparatus in the face of these kinds of tragedies and the way you can kind of compel people to join you and no one knows which way is out Which one you want to talk about first Let's talk about jimmy first uh I thought this was a fascinating characterization of somebody who I think you can kind of see in genre pieces across cinematic history where it's just like this um person who's taking advantage of like a particularly dire situation to create a cult around them and is saying like that They're the chosen person that they're the chosen one who is getting communications from the dark war You got to do what i'm telling you whether it's david koresh or whatever these people who are like kind of these These incredibly central figures in this kind of story and then I just there's a couple of scenes with him in this movie where I just I Rather than being revolted by him and and even though he is like an absolutely Amazing villain. I thought he was fascinating the conversation that he winds up having with kelsen is so good And so interesting and his sort of like only I can hear the devil's teachings Because I am his chosen son and all the stuff that he's doing and garland's not like shy about like obviously There's a lot of echoes of like Of contemporary leadership in in in our real world that he's talking about in this movie But he's never like too over the top with it. You know what i mean like i never thought it was too Yeah, it's it's grounded and i credit garland which is something i don't say very often on this podcast both further the character is Like is very is quite literally of this earth and so um, you know He's like negotiating with the kelsen character and he's kind of like here's my problem and like here's where I am with my dad he hasn't taken on Full cult of personality and then the way that jack o'Connell plays him Even when he's in like full cult leader mode and giving all his speeches It's it's weird, you know, it's a little it's He's trying to pump himself up You can see a little bit of his kind of insecurity and vulnerability just in flash Yes, but like he is a charlatan and it's communicated to the audience But it's not overt right because he is able to command his flock He really can't get these people to do these awful things to innocence and that that is like that's the per-slasive power of cult like leadership And the thing that unites the The performance that fines gives and the performance of o'Connell gives is that like You could run that thing with a 99 out of 100 actors and it would just be a disaster like if this didn't work It would be almost unwatchable. Yes, and they both and it's hard to look at a lot of what they do I mean, I you've gotten a lot tougher over the years But I saw you wincing in your seat a lot when we were watching this yeah because it's really And sometimes I'm just kind of like I'm you know, I'm looking elsewhere I've trained myself to be like okay, I understand what you're doing And now I don't need to like see anymore people being being peeled Though I did find and I know this is like a horror movie convention A lot of the real moments of violence happen off screen Like a lot of the knifeings happen and like you cut away or like you know a hook or something goes in And I understand that you can't yeah like film elements of surprise to me and story and like implication and that not Sometimes not seeing things as scarier, right? But So I did okay, but yeah, it was gnarly Yeah, I think the other thing too is that DeCosta's arc is fascinating and weird. She's made She made a small Sundance indie and then she made Candyman reboot and then she made a Marvel movie which is the lowest grossing Marvel movie of all time about being an unpleasant experience I clearly went into the blender and it doesn't seem like she got to make exactly the movie she wanted to make And then she just made this Reimagining reimagining of Heta Gobler Heta which is on prime right now if people want to watch it They came out last year which I thought was interesting But particularly there's a sense of Anything can happen violent chaos in that movie which is really just like a chamberpiece at a party Sure, yeah, but it does seem like anybody could get shot in the head at any moment in that movie And this movie has the same tool like it has the same strength where A character who you think is going to be with us for a long time could die at any moment And there are real stakes against the figures that we're following and because the movie kind of background spike a little bit There's like a there is a real sense of unpredictability in it the thing the hallmark of these last two films for me has been A real shock at like what it's unfolding on screen like I think I went into the first film Expecting it to be much more about air and Taylor Johnson and Jordy Comer I had no idea that this kid was going to be the hero of the film and I had no idea that the movie was going to deviate from your more traditional like Us first the infected narrative into this kind of like almost like You know super cathartic Ideas about grief and letting go and death and all this stuff and in this film I kind of just expected the spike stuff to pick up And so this idea that these two ideologies are basically on a collision course and those ideologies are as plain as day of Of science and reason versus faith or and and it's To be able to do that. It's not even like Trojan horsing. It's like it's really like hiding your punches until they can be the most effective Swings Yeah, we should talk about probably the kelson strain of this and how yeah intersects with the infected as well um, and oh mine saying I was watching the movie and I was like so this is dr. Anthony Fauci that's who dr. Kelsen is like there's very clearly a like Healer heal by self Narrative here and kelson was introduced in the last film as potentially a threat a man gone mad Covers himself in a lie. I like it. We assume it's blood for Yeah, right and he's building a giant bone temple. Yes, he literally built a bone temple He is treating and clearing you know at the beginning of this film. He is you know clearing the um the sort of uh cartilage away from bones after he you know burns them up and It seems like he's a crazy person, but the film goes to great lengths to show us that he's still like a man of science And still studying and still trying to learn and we watched in the last film him slowly building this relationship with the alpha samson Who you know, once again is just nude throughout the film this film is unafraid to show samson and in full um And he realizes that when he sort of um neutralizes him, and architizes him with his blowdark That samson isn't not just docile, but like maybe there's something else going on behind the eyes that their his humanity has been unlocked in some way Yeah, and it starts to get his wheels turning and he starts to think on if not a cure a kind of evolution of the virus treatment. Yes, and You know, maybe a um solution to this this problem that is that is complete a vaccine source and Kelsen is shown to be like a very sensible sensitive sincere person. It's not a cynical portrayal of a person like this And a lonely person to you know because he keeps He emphasizes with the Missamson with the alpha But wants him to like speak as well, you know, and the the music is woven in because he's like lost all contact with like other humans And so this is these are like his memories and he sings and dances. Yes, lots of dandering. Yes, because he wants like you know He's just looking for some sort of connection so and I think that It It's not just that he's like practical and looking for the cure, but he's trying to cure himself in a way as well. Sure. Yeah, I mean there's also like Some really interesting stuff. So basically, I mean we allowed to be a little bit more detailed about how we're talking about it We've already spoiled a bunch of this movie if you don't want to hear anymore. Go see the film the treatment plan is essentially opiates You know, he's giving out the alpha. He's giving Samson more fiend And after a few weeks or however long it's been that he's been treating him and that it clearly Samson is regaining Some elements of humanity if still like unable to speak He's essentially in language running out of morphine Like morphine supply in the United Kingdom. And this is something that comes up a couple of times in the film where you know There's that commune that you were talking about of villagers are using spears like we are running out of the sort of man-made Resources of the old world the guns the the drugs the everything that we've kind of built up And he's just kind of talking to himself but talking to Samson and he says This is with the wait rate you're consuming this we have about two more weeks or You can take the big trip and I put you out and I put you to sleep and you go out in like a way And he's like but if you could just consent like if you could just tell me that's okay And he's just basically kind of saying that out loud to himself And as he's about to give this guy the shot Samson says moon Which is you know a revelation but also kind of tragic because now this guy is obviously showing progress But they're running out of the the medicine that they need to treat his psychosis essentially Did you notice the Poppies that showed up in the field at the very end of the movie? I didn't well refines was dancing. Yeah, they're red poppies throughout the opiates Yeah, yeah, not unlike the Wizard of Oz Just like I Found this component of the movie to be what separated it from other things I think a lot of filmmakers can do we're gonna have crazy people peeling skin off and this will be like a fun time at the movies in a good January movie this the contrast between these two components and just you utilizing ray finds who you know Is saying his praises anytime he shows up in a movie the three of us love him He he might be the most daring and flexible Post movie star that we have like he has made so many different kinds of movies. He can take on any kind of complex material He doesn't have to be making the third and fourth 28 movies like that's you could say this is very easily above his Pay grade and he could just be making Shakespearean adaptations But he fucking loves this shit. Yeah, you know like he likes being volumore He likes going into these worlds and he's so so so special in this movie because he's so free with his body He's so unafraid I mean he's practically new throughout the entire film covered in the The paint and you know the i black near the end of the film you know like you say he's so Magical and musical with his his dance movements and the way they kind of turns himself over to a character It just makes a movie like this so much better when you have someone who is so free. Yeah, and then it the The long term thinking to know that When jack o'Connell and ray finds finally get a big scene together where they're gonna be like Essentially doing a piece of theater with a gorgeous backdrop of of northern England or whatever you know, it's normally like yeah But these two guys are just gonna be chewing scenery for five six seven minutes talking about Their lives how they've arrived at this point where they believe one thing or another and where they kind of find themselves in this like struggle Where it's like you're we're gonna have to make some sort of arrangement or I'm gonna kill you But the contrast of their performances, you know, O'Connell initially doing Grand gestures and his blonde mocks and he's like I'm Jimmy. I'm the seven And then he's like continually comes down to the point where it's just like two guys talking Mm-hmm. Yeah, because because kelsen has disarmed him right he's disarmed him by asking him questions By making him feel safe by not posing a threat like He this is also someone who's lived in fear of death Living among the infected for 28 years. Yeah, he's figured out ways to stay calm in the face of all this danger Um, two really exciting actors O'Connell is in the middle of quite a run. Mm-hmm Um, you know, I think you both were fairly early on rocuros Um, I was because of him. Yeah, I mean, I've loved him since skin start up. Yeah, yeah start up in and 71 and all the great films He's made in his early stretch, but now if you look if you go to 2022 when rocuros started and you know Underrated in Ferrari, I think the best part of back to black by far sinners last year as Remick and now these two films um He's also fantastic in the north water, which is 21 which is Andrew Hayes um Many series that he's seen it's like jack o'Connell and Colin Farrell I mean, I'll tell you who you reminded me of in this movie's Gary oldman that he's he's giving a Gary oldman performance It is it feels like a little bit of his Dracula a little bit of his um the professional exactly that kind of like greasy slick Millett of like Yeah, that there's something like you really don't want to cross him because things will go very very bad um And he's just magnificent in this movie and he's a disgusting character I mean, he is vile the things that he does and the way that he takes advantage of children women and you know Just innocence throughout the film, but you kind of can't take your eyes off of them I was blown away by him and I could usually am like I'm a huge fan of his But this is a really easy part to make completely over the top and ridiculous um It's not that much different than like John Melcovitch and Con air or name any like overqualified actor in a like a peak villainy part But he finds pathos in this guy, you know, and you really do in the same way That kelsen is saying that he can't really remember a time before the infection You start to get an idea of why Jimmy would be the way he is if he's eight years old and the first thing that he kind of remembers Is his father leading a horde of infected? Yeah, to storm a church and kill the vicar. Yeah, an entire village. Yes, that shapes your worldview Yeah, he's a con man, but I think he also believes the con Where you out on teletubbies? I mean, I remember I was babysitting when they were on so I consumed them as like was that General's that jimima. Yeah, it was very good. I mean it is that's a very funny uh Very specific and accurate inclusion that's over several films now because aren't the little kids watching teletubbies when there's like that horrible raid in the first yes very upset uh Yes, but on and they are really weird and in their own way a sign of And jacko coddle be like it's there's robots that have tv's and tv's and their tummies and so on and so it's really yeah um It's funny Yeah, this this movie is like kind of a miracle I didn't I wasn't sure that any of this stuff was gonna work these these last two films and I'm really Kind of blown away by how good they are and now um You know, this is a deep spoiler, but by the time we get to the end of this film A long rumored thing that some thought would happen in the last film does actually come to pass in this movie Which is the killing Murphy's character returns And he returns and we see that he is raising his daughter. I guess that's his daughter. He had with Naomi Harris uh, yes And he's teaching her About history yeah, and she's studying World War 2 Yes, and the The inter between world war one and world war right why the allies were more conciliatory and Helpful in the post-World War 2 era rather than the post-World War 1 era which Thematically I think is Garland's sort of saying like this will never work if every swing of the pendulum is about taking punishing Down the opposite side. Yes, the more vindictive the punishment Which is if you need like an example of like I mean, I'm sure there are people who thought that was stupid But like I think that that's an example of why Alex Garland is really really good is that you can have a character sort of Off half off screen for some of the scene discussing Churchill and how that he does if Those forget history are doomed to repeat it like from the kitchen. Yes, like making taste. Yeah That was a gasp and applaud moment in our screening as was probably the crescendo of the movie which I guess I don't know if you want to talk about that. We should. I mean, it's an amazing feat of filmmaking So finds his character who has been set up to be Satan Jack by Jack O'Connell's character. Yeah, he's he's standing in standing in for Satan He's like jack O'Connell's like I need you to pretend to be the devil So that my minions continue to believe that I am in contact with the devil and if you don't do that I will kill you as effectively and so We already know Dr. Kelsen's a bit of a shaman and he conjures up this performance has the dark lord set to iron maidens number of the beast gives blows cocaine into The Jimmy's Physical cane. Do you know I think it was supposed to be him create he was like he was mixing up coke or got it some sort of speed. Yeah And gives this kind of ravishing visual performance and like I said To cost and Bob it very free with the camera and like what kind of it turns into a music video And a very exciting and amusing music video Seen through the eyes of the the Jimmy's who were baffled as to what they're watching and then like watching Yes And concludes with this epic kind of fire dance that he does with these shoulder weights that are knocking the sparks loose from the fire inside It's just like it's an amazing set piece I guess there is also a crucifixion that happens in the aftermath of that It is a really dramatic and violent and fascinating conclusion You know, we have also seen that Samson has sort of become humanized and become a potential victim once again of the infected Even though he remains clearly the infected right But he can his access to SSRI's Because you got all the puppies they were there that was in a mistake. Yeah Can keep piece it together and you know you also see Kelsen Like doing some you know long-hand math and consulting some books in a way that suggests he's trying to like make more Feeding again. Yes. Yes. So home Samson's gonna be okay Well, he says he's like I think that there is he still absolutely wallops that entire train car of people Yes, he does in fact it. He goes back to the place where both I believe his child has been born his his zombie human hybrid child Yes, it's from the previous film and also turns out the place where it looks like He was when the infection started when the outbreak started Just saying that people applauded in our screening for that fire dance And then there was a gasp in a light round of applause for killing Murphy. I only mentioned that just because I think this might be the most creatively invigorating running franchise in movies right now and Even the way that they construct the The way that they tell a complete story and then do basically a two-minute coda at the end of both of these past Yeah, is like Kind of the way this shuts off should work. It's like there is another world out there There is another story we're gonna tell it's not gonna affect we didn't stop telling our movie 35 minutes ago in order to set up some new problem You know what I mean? I think it's pretty it's pretty awesome. I think part of my Comfort with that is the idea that this there's not gonna be 10 more of these That this is pitched as a trilogy sold as a trilogy. Right Garland wrote three scripts That makes me more at ease with the structure of the story I generally am a little bit dubious of here's a two-minute coda come back for the next one It has to be done really well when we walked out of 28 years later. Yeah We were like listen. We really like Jack O'Connell and We'll go wherever he is but we were we were like are we sure it was confusing Yeah, and like what's going on here and let's talk about the rest of the movie and this you know confirms both that coda and the strategy There's people were like I cannot yeah, I cannot un like endorse this film full as fully as I would like to because of the last scene I also think like asking Global but especially American audiences to know who Jimmy Savil is and know like where the influences are coming from on this Was a lot I think by the time this movie comes out people do the right about it or it's not really that necessary in this film Because I think they come up with like their own Kind of mythology and iconography. That's why I think it works is if you understand the reference and you get the idea of sort of like a child predator And someone who appears to be friendly, but yeah, how's that? Um great coda with that like closing the nose on the house that as well um But if you if you if you don't get it It still works. He still seems like a demon. Yeah, there's not really creepy. Yes This coda is I think tonally more in line with the rest of the film. It actually if I mean It doesn't just feel like a callback because killing Murphy is in it But even the way that it staged that sort of like long lens final shot it felt like the first film It felt like 28 days later. It brings back the theme that the sort of the scores the scores from the first film. Yeah, which um I would imagine that there will be an attempt to kind of like Reckon with and reexamine the first movie in this final I mean, I imagine we go back to London Perhaps movie exciting Isn't cure possible. There's look I mean the way to make this more practically and to make this more cheaply and thus make it more Suitable for Sony is to keep it out and the hills and keep it rural and it's very beautiful and Five or six people running around in circles, but You know, I mean the cool thing about what this movie does is that you know it takes Two major chess pieces off the board. So it's like what's at stake? What are we? What is the end goal of this is it just about spike Becoming a man and becoming the kind of man that like you know, you would hope you would become or is it about We actually have Dr. Kelsen's secret recipe to turn everyone back. Mm-hmm To be determined would you say more of like a Hungry like the wolf Rio girls on film during their anthem or more of like an ordinary world like early 90s fan I mean definitely Rio girls on film yeah, just but you're getting an ordinary world I noticed you know when that when that I am I appreciate I appreciate the entire uvra was interesting to get a kid a needle drop Yeah, which would be right up against when When the infection is 0 2 or a 1 or whatever you know, uh, so it's just right up right up against me So he kind of stopped getting into new music kelsen roughly like 93 but he got brought that hard on the radio head Yeah radio head was still of interest very common. I That song is now appeared in three films in the last five years Yeah, well, it's just another Catching up with us. We are in charge of everything and the references I just like we could have just done the national anthem that would have been another way to Oh, Dan Dan Dan Dan Dan Dan Dan Dan Dan Everything in its right place is like we're good. We're good. Take a break. Take a break um I'm just I'm just really I was blown away by this and I just can't believe that this is what's happening with this series of films Let's take it. Let's do an ad hoc where he finds Hall of Fame. Okay, absolutely I don't know if there's a logical time to do this I don't know if this would normally be an entire episode I started trying to rough it out in my head last night and I was like This guy's got 25 essential performances. Yeah, so I want your feedback. I want your thoughts. I got down to 10 But I couldn't figure out one of them which one he should be but like I I know that some are missing but I got down to 10 Can we do stone cold locks to start? Sure. Yeah Shindler's list yep have to the English patient. Yep have to the grand Budapest hotel. Yes I think you have to do one of the Harry Potter films. Sure. Yeah, I don't know which one but I don't know which one which one either Is there like a Voldemort flashback one? Is there one like where he's like doing a bunch of different stuff? No I mean, it's but it's played by another actor because his face isn't okay as best I can tell I mean I would Say probably just deathly hallows two since it's the final film that it features like the final confrontation Yep, so that's four. Okay. Do you think there are any more stone cold locks? Uh Conclay? I thought about it um He elevates that movie in a big way. That's another example of it. Something that could have seemed very cool thing about I mean, there's one more cheeky. There's one more with the world of the big picture, which is a bigger splash Yes, I mean, I just like we were doing it. We would be yes. We are doing it. This is our podcast. Okay, so that's six We'll say Conclay even will say a bigger splash. Yeah, uh, I will throw out a couple So here's one of the things about him is that about five or six years into his career He just develops this ability to go from he can play the fifth On the call sheet to the first on the call sheet and it makes his big of an impact either way. Yes, so In in Bruce or in hailsteser. He is able to make It a crater and he's still he's still Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and the same honestly, uh in I think he has like two minutes of screen time in the her locker And he's awesome in it. So what do we do about that? That's part of why I found this to be challenging because like He's not essential to the Craig Bond films, but I love when he shows up. He's great You know, he's he out he lifts those movies when he pops up and he's a nice counterpoint to Craig So you have you have shinlers english pacent patient Uh, Harry Potter Gran Budapest is for Conclay, let's say is five would you put 28 years later and bigger splashes six six is bigger splash. Let's say bone temple is seven great I agree. Yeah, and then soon I think personally like my favorite underrated performance by him Two of them are one of strange days. I was gonna I would have nominated it has a little Bit of a different look than probably you're used to seeing from him and the other one is constant gardener Okay, which is the John a Kerry adaptation With Rachel vice, which I think he's phenomenal in so I am down with that I think ten would then have to be quesho I thought you yeah quesho has to be in there So then that's like that's ten right there, but that does not account for any of those Super cameos that he's so good and basically yeah, there's no malary Uh no m. Yeah, there's no Hill Caesar There's no hurt locker in brusch Yeah, it's also brilliant as Francis dollar hide and red dragon, which is a flawed movie, but he's very good in that movie No shots at Tom Newton It's hard for me. I mean, I didn't even put up like the end of the affair or whatever But that's a good movie. Yeah, you know, no, that's a really good film and he's really good in that that's moves a little Made in Manhattan is uh Not good um, he's not bad in it, but that's it's uh, I don't appreciate it Did not realize he played Heathcliff in weathering heights. I know and someone else in this some really up a noosh Yeah, I got to watch this and then wait hold on is he in the return as well as that? Okay, so do you know what the return is? I do actually never saw it. I didn't either, but a friend of mine just like this is a retelling of the Odyssey So we're gonna have to see that yeah What about the Prince of Egypt did you see the crows? They see the what the the coral the coral the coral I think it's coral. There's no e So I'm sorry about the American two singing group breaks. Yeah, it's heavily advertised in London. I mean I definitely I'm gonna do like the if I ever have a date of myself again like Nuremberg coral back to back, you know Uh, that we didn't say that It's like Definitely go open 15 other things you could do with the day yourself Um next time I get the flu, you know, um, okay, the the menu we didn't mention Huge hit. I know that a movie that also does not work without him. I like that movie It's got some heavy detractors, but I'm a fan. So we're remember the dig When he was a geologist Is that a Netflix film it was I and I mean it was 2021 also so I I needed that to be the English is there anything in the deep British lore from the 80s that we're not thinking of I mean, you know, he's he's in Peter Greenways. Maybe of making I remember that um I you know, shindles this is really a major breakthrough for him. I don't I don't know about this weathering heights I would like to see this I mean there It's not screen, but I just thought I would mention it's just film maybe you can find a lot of his uh There's several of his works His theater works is on are on like online and various places, especially his collaborations with David hair. Okay. What about um Conan Burke's spider I think is on the list. Okay Uh the first film I ever reviewed for the ethicon college. Uh The failed Avengers relaunch opposite umatherman not the Avengers comic book characters the british tv spy series I remember that and then what about what was the kingsman that he was in was he in the kings man the kings man Yes from 2021 is that the prequel one yes, okay. Okay. What's he doing in that he invents the kingsman? Oh, yeah I think right he's like that's right for suit shot. Okay. He also Directed in adaptation porcelainus. Yeah I remember being pretty good. Yeah really a war movie Hmm anything else we did our 10 pretty easily that's it was pretty easy and we have like five to seven Also checks this out. Yeah Any other thoughts? Um, do you think We'll get 28 years later The last year or whatever This time next year next summer No, I think it's gonna be a little while Danny Boyle has a movie coming out at the end of this year So if Danny Boyle's making it, I don't believe production has begun It depends on probably how this movie does too. I think it's tracking for less like 20 years later four days So word of mouth will be good, but I do think that there will be also the that was fucking brutal word of mouth as well Coming out. Yes, um, it's extremely violent and hard to take times I come out of this with just like I I need a cost to season tickets now Interesting. Yeah, just like sign on just I think I I get what she's go I usually watch had a you should know you think about it. I was just so so thrilled with what she did with this She did a really it's you know as I said before we began recording this story has good bones Yeah, it has really good bones and there we go It is it is in a way I almost don't want Boyle to go back I want to see another filmmaker's point of view Because I think it could withstand another reimagining another visual But if you're gonna do Philly and Murphy Yeah, you got it. If there's gonna be some sort of inclusion to the story Which I don't know I mean I imagine if you wrote it as a trilogy although knowing Alex Curling Maybe he's like there's no fucking this is the end like we are all infected. Yeah. Yeah, that would be appropriate So you're thank you. Yeah, I pleasure. We're gonna talk a little bit about Anley But you wouldn't watch a film starring a woman. So we're gonna ask you to move on And now my interview Okay, we're back Before I talk to Mona Fassful that I thought we should talk about the testament of Anley a little bit So you know, it's almost co-written with Mona and Brady Corvay just like the brutalist and it stars Amanda Cyford Thomas and McKenzie Lewis Pullman Stacey Martin Tim Blake Nelson Christopher Abbott It is a story I'd not heard anything about I'd never heard of Anley it spans 18th century England and America This visionary spiritual leader Anley comes along rises from obscurity. She forges this radical movement called the shakers Inspired by the Quaker movement She suffers significant personal tragedy and in the wake of that Develops this concept of celibacy colliding with a kind of convulsive musical reckoning with God and And The film portrays her Struggles and also her brilliance and her radiance and Features like in a wildly transformative performance by Amanda Cyford. I know you for a solid out of Venice. It did And so I really did then yeah, I really liked it and I knew Nothing about it besides you know what was printed in the in the programs and And I also knew nothing about the shakers and I didn't even know as it's explained fairly early in the film that they're called shakers Or at least in the context of them they're called shakers because they were shaking Quakers So I didn't even know to anticipate the movement and the choreography and certainly the music that was That is a major part of this because in addition to it being An examination of the founding of a religious spiritual movement and also Fast-fold and Corby's sequel or next installment of the cult of personality and and self-belief and hatred in in the wake of personal tragedy um It is also like a musical And it has and with a lot of dancing as well and not your traditional like theater Like jazz hands really really memorable movement and that is actually what stood out to me the most I loved it I loved the choreography and the way that it incorporates the traditional shaker Music and and the very weird dancing and literilizes that shaking Quaker um In a it surprised me you just I hadn't seen anything like it. Yeah, it's a cool act of Not just synthesis with synchronization like the choreography and the music which is written with Daniel Blumberg Fits the filmmaking style the movie the camera Moves and the story moves the way that the shakers move and particularly during these ecstatic dance sequences You know singing sequences You can kind of feel how you can get wrapped up in this movement which on its face It's quite severe and quite strange yes very alien I think to a 21st century sensibility but There's something about the kind of emotional hysteria of this movie that is very Transfixing and fast-fold does not wink She never is like isn't this funny or weird She's It's just a portrait Which I think is a really really good choice and I feel like in these times whenever you're trying to tell a story about a person like this It's very and you know the brutalist got kind of health to task for this as well But it's something that I liked about that movie also which is that this is a person Who transformed their lives and attempted to heal a deep wound by focusing on construction and imagination and community like those things can be um can help heal and I appreciate it the movie is is a little ridiculous like you will as you're watching and you'll be like this is so strange And the sequences and when everyone like in the back corner of the frame and the way that Cameras like up people's noses is there as as they're having these ecstatic it is There there is something uncomfortable about it that purposefully right that it is supposed to To to communicate How Desperate and consuming the the nature of this expression Mm-hmm was people trying to work themselves eat like out of something and into something else right I saw more walkouts for this in Venice than any other film. I mean the Italians were just like absolutely not Yeah, I think there's also a significant amount of um Very raw portrayals of childbirth and then infant death in the movie that is very severe And I think we'll alienate people and see also hamnet, you know, it's true I mean it's a running theme in the films of 2025 But I think also you know, that's obviously a kind of inspiration point for Annelise thinking about how she sees the world She's also been um subject to physical abuse by her family and by her partner She has this very tenuous relationship to sex and that tenuous relationship leads to some of this thinking about celibacy And then the way in which she's rejected by her partner in life because of that I mean these are really thorny ideas and they seem old-fashioned or or alien But the movie doesn't do that kind of like cheap This is her trauma right and now she's clean it yeah exactly I mean We were talking about both the brutalist and this movie as a response to um Two personal trauma or just and like really honestly to rape in both cases and and That these people are trying to find some sort of healing is very different than finding exactly exactly and they are they're trying to work things out But I wouldn't say that either film has a happy ending at least my interpretation I will say though without spoiling it I found that the way that Annelise portrayed at the end of the film is really interesting and mature And complicated and kind of had me thinking about how I want my life to end um and sort of like what you want to How you want to feel about yourself and what you've done and how you see the world when it when your time has come um God tier work from Amanda ciphered yeah, I think I just wanted to say it's truly an amazing performer This movie is asking so much of her I could not think of another movie that was asking so much of a performer because she has to Uh have a clear sense of this spiritual ideology She has to represent a fearless leader An ecstatic devotion in this conceit. She has to sing She has to dance. She has to lead in singing and dancing right She's not just participating, but she is at the center of the frame through all these experiences Plus the prosthetics involved in those childbirth sequences the amount of violence that this character endures This crazy set pieces the epic ship journey that her character takes right And it's an epic film and as you said like as fastful doesn't wink and she does not either And we have seen that Amanda ciphered can wink when she needs to totally the housemate and it that is what the house made Is for and she's perfect in it. Yes, but there is a sincerity to what she does in all of this. That's pretty amazing It's a very unusual film. I could not really think of too many other movies. It's cool It is cool. I think that's part of the reason why and I think that your general audience Is going to be made a little uncomfortable for me or bored in some ways And I don't know that it has necessarily the same That uplift in the first half of the brutalist you know that sort of like right there's no Showy. Yeah, exactly. That's triumphal quality this movie is different I would say that ends in a similar way to the way that the Previous the the brutalist begins But the movie does feel like a little bit of splitting the atom between boxlux and the brutalist to me Yeah, you know in terms of like here's how music and performance collides with Artistry pain spirituality history So very cool project they have going on. I like what they're up to I was I'm really into it I think this to me I've I clicked with this film the most of the three And you know to anyone who is listened to what we're talking about and is like No, thanks. I was skeptical walking in I was not like my Most anticipated of the Venice film festival and It and it really did win me over. I think Mona is also an amazing advocate for the movie So I highly recommend people listen to the conversation with her. It's not even really It's not the kind of movie that can be spoiled. There's a Wikipedia page the details and leaves life It is a speculative portrait as she points out she is no longer alive. I just want to let everyone know. Yeah But I do think that First of all the music is easy to return to I've started listening to it. It's bonify. Maybe new writing music for me You know Daniel Blumberg. Oh, all right. That Bob Bob bomb bomb moment in the brutalist also makes the music here um Can't say I'm I'm swayed to explore the shakers ideology any further. It's not something that we've been talking about this I'm good on spirituality. I got my own what could I discover what could I pursue This sheepers all made also made furniture right there making yeah the furniture is lovely I think that's something I mean cipher and Lewis Pullman learned to do is they learned to make this furniture Downright Daniel Day Lewis. Yeah, and I like the furniture But maybe I'll just admire that from afar 18th century would have been a tough time to live Yeah, think about how bad it smelled You ever think about that I think about that all the time at least You would know any different because there's no deodorant That's true, but it's not just like bodily smell you know like to sewage like foodway all of these sorts of things I spend a lot of time thinking about how dehydrated I would be And how terrible everything would smell but you would have God inside you unlike now and when she lived in a godless world I find God all around me have read it Uh, okay, well that's an advocacy for the movie. This is more advocacy from Mona Fastful. Let's go to my conversation with her right now Mona Fastful here for the first time. Thank you for being here. I'm very excited to talk to you about this movie There are some superficial similarities between the brutalist and the testament of Anli so I was hoping you could walk me through The development the discovery of Anli is life for you and kind of when this movie really first started Well, so we wrote it before we shot the brutalist um, but um Yes, I didn't really think about the similarities until I was in the edit I was editing the testament of Anli I was also In promoting and putting out the brutalist with with radian Just talking about the brutalist every day while you know when you were in that really that space when you're editing and you're just analyzing the work that you've done Um, all of a sudden we started seeing all of these similarities and seeing sort of how the pictures both spoke to one another is if they're both immigrating to America. They're both trying to do something Impossible perhaps unwanted um Of a guard uh in many ways philosophically artistically um both of these characters But they're very different characters so it was it was an interesting kind of all of a sudden It was an interesting it was interesting looking at it at it as a companion piece But we didn't think about that at all when we started when we were writing it. We um we had written the brutalist and we We I was I was fascinated by the shakers I I came across it when I was doing research on the world to come which takes place in 1856 Um and I was looking I was actually looking for some for him Um to use in the film When I was looking at something that was with date further back than then 1856 something that could have been passed down from To them from their mothers or something like that. So I started just looking at you know Hims from that it from master that also takes place in Massachusetts And upstate New York. So I was looking at that area and I was reading about you know back the hymns and history of them And I came across this one specific song that I've really fell in love with called pretty mother's home That's in the film as well that song by this beautiful um actor and singer Lark White and just in Josephine Foster as well sings on that and um And I I started reading about it and and that led me to the shakers and to mother and Lee and um And I thought it was just a fascinating story Fascinating historical figure she kept surprising me as I was learning more about her It was a lot of detective work that went into learning about her because there's not that much that has been written about her and The you know, there's one like and the word which is great biography But that one that's the only one that was available everything else was more less out of print And you had to sort of go down go digging But as I learned more about her I was really I was just fascinated I was surprised by how Radical she was her ideas um for you know uh Justice equality um and how Sort of what a feminist she was and then there sort of this like this aspect of the religion that that is that they worship their ecstatic song and dance Shots. I was so cinematic and interesting. It's like a it's a force musical like it has to be a musical because That's how they live their life. It's that they sort of almost lived their life like a musical earlier So all those aspects I just felt were really just made for an interesting project to dedicate years and years of my life too I want to hear about those years. I saw you describe it as a speculative retelling of life Which I think is a really interesting phrase and then whenever there's a biopic for a lack of a better word there is this line between Truth of a person's life and what makes a kind of coherent narrative film So how did you think about that especially since there's maybe not as much material as you would have liked to Even just use a source when you were writing the film Well, there's definitely blanks that has to be filled in there's definitely things that you have to to imagine and But it's all you know, it's all the pace of a lot of research It's a lot of information, but speculative yes because It what's written down as truths are It's not written down by Anne Lee herself because she was a literate And it is written by down by written her witnesses Much like the Bible so Is it did it really happen this way or did it happen another way? It's and it's it's their interpretation of of These events and then then again, it's it's ours interpretation of them and so you know, I just I sat down I did as much research as I could And and I felt like the story of the structure of the story was very much there And then when we sit down to as I tend to write it with righty we really For us it was really okay now now you write from intuition because Now this becomes a dialogue between us and this material and us and this historical figure then that sort of That's where the film lives for me in that conversation between the filmmaker and And the and the historical figure of the historical events they were portraying so Therefore, you know, it's not it's not a straight biopic. I'm not trying to say. Oh, this is exactly what happened but This is it's more this is my conversation with with what happened I asked Brady a somewhat similar question around the brutalist which was that I felt like that film in this film The drive and ambition and the sort of like the commitment devotion To the belief and the process of what those two characters are doing It doesn't map kind of neatly on to the life of an independent filmmaker And like do you see a connection Like a close personal connection between what you do in your work and what and Lee stood for how she did it how she pursued it Like is there a match there? Yeah, I think that you know, I think that These both of these stories this yes, they they do it is for us my personal sort of connection to the story is of course, you know tied to What is it that drives you? What is this faith that drives you to try and create impossible? You know things like it it feels impossible to make these movies um Down to the very end in many ways even putting them out into the world and like finding Great distributor even when you've made it like you know It's so hard is so challenging and it cons you have so many knows and you have so many shut doors over and over and over again But then you know with this project I'm with the brutalist we have a tight neck group of people that we're working so closely with And that just stands you know together with us and and could we you know and we'll just Do anything it takes to to make it happen. So yes, there's look there's definitely parallels and that I'm sure there's that you know that part That's that journey of that struggle is something, you know I guess we keep returning to but I think also that defiance is appealing to me because there's a part of me that I guess When nobody wants it, I still will not stop making the movie. I won't say okay. Well, I guess no one no one wants to find answers My shaker musical I don't know why Well, why do you want to do that is why do you feel like you when someone says no that almost Empowers you more to keep going Because I believe in the story so much so so much I do if not I wouldn't be making it if not I wouldn't dedicate here so my life to it I and I don't know why I believe in it, but I do I mean I just do you have it's it's a bit of And that's I guess the kind of faith aspect I'm not religious. I wasn't raised In a religious household, but I I am interested in faith and I do think like what is what is it that drives you to be so uncomfortable all the time as well You know, it's it's hard. It's hard, you know, and then you're just you're pushing yourself to the very limit to make something that you believe in That the world is also telling you maybe no thanks. We're good. We're good on this And then of course, you know, like I mean the wonderful thing is that I think that if you do make something that's really singular and very precise and specific then There usually is an appetite for it So because of the specific specificity of it, I think at least that's what I seek out something that's just like One vision really clear That is definitely how I felt watching it and I do feel like I couldn't I'm fond of comparing movies to other movies That's something that cinephiles do non-stop all the time But there are there's not a lot of strong comparisons that can be made because of the structure because of the approach that you take in telling the story that sort of forced musical that you described I love that phrase, but one thing I wanted to ask you about is that The sequence of events of her life at times are dark and also absurd and the idea of a forced musical is kind of absurd On its face, but the tone of the film is very straight you do not lean into irony There's no there's no wink in the film whatsoever. There are some humorous moments but not not much And holding that tone of seriousness like in our society now can sometimes be considered a negative But you really make it work Despite or in part because of all of these choices So like I was wondering if you could just talk about the decision on the tone of the film and how you wanted it to go It was so important to me to stay in right in that space And it was very hard Because it's easy to make fun of her. It's easy to debunk the myths of her That's the easy route the hard route is to take her seriously and to Treat her with respect. It's more it's more difficult. I think and it's felt more radical in a way And it almost felt more radical for me in a way to also This is the most this is the most traditional Story structure that we've ever written for me and Brady. It's like a three-acted. It's linear It's linear and all that so of course there's saying send the film but I knew that the filmmaking was going to be Be radical and I knew that with the movement and the and the music and The editorial pattern and and I knew that that was gonna bring that in so I kind of I wanted that structure to be a bit more Yeah, to be a bit more linear Like a cradle to grave story and and also felt like treating her with respect by doing that. I wanted I wanted to have this to see this is her life This is not is not just this little part of her life or this little one idea about her It's it's this is her entire life and it was grand and here's a grand gesture to celebrate that Or to you not even celebrate it just to even to look at it um, but I also think because I when I was when I began to research her and I had moments where I thought oh when am I gonna feel When am I gonna be like oh what a charlatan you like that kind of idea because you I think that's that that's the relationship that I have to a lot of stories about Cult leaders or other religious leaders or even political leaders like people who are driven by ego or personal gain or who are manipulating and and leading from fear and then through and sort of reading about and Leah just discovered that she was always just kind of leading from this like place of love And it was never about her and it was never about her ego and it was always just about um trying to create safe space where people could worship in a different way and Where they could worship through creating objects or art drawings paintings music um the architecture you know like all these things It just felt like this very it was surprising how sort of pure and like and and and full of love and caring there Their beliefs were and how and how radical they were and I just I wanted to I wanted the audience to To make up their own mind as they went through the story. I couldn't you know go full couldn't join the shakers Is that I couldn't go for you know, I couldn't be become a preacher with her But I I certainly wanted to keep this sort of Create the space where you could just make up your own mind Maybe change your mind throughout and have different thoughts and feelings about her like I did when I was researching Yeah, I was thinking about this revisiting the movie last night was is this movie a Celebration or just a portrait and you you kind of hinted at that and that answer too is it a little bit of both Yeah, yeah, hopefully hopefully it's a it's it's it can be both I think you can celebrate someone without agreeing with them completely as well. Also. She's a portrait of her time you know of like arguing for celibacy and dissolving of marriages at that time It was her only way to to gain autonomy as a woman She it was the only way to say okay. I there is no husbands and wives because husbands and wives are not equal It's a wife or your husband's property, but brothers and sisters are equal So that's what we're gonna be and that's how we we are gonna and the what is the female figure of authority a mother Everyone respects their mother. I will be a mother. We lead her as a mother and so using these sort of different Ideas to create autonomy and to sort of find a place where she could be a leader. I think is at that time I understand yeah, it's interesting because she's not mess ionic right she's Like a community stir, you know, like there's a difference between like the cult leaders that you're talking about too I think so too and I think it's it's that lack of ego and I think that is also something that's really connected to motherhood in a way Well, you're like I am just here. I'm like living from my children I'm like I will like you know, you know, you know move mountains to protect and love my children and it's like true that that power comes from that like Intense overwhelming feeling of love I'm curious about the conception and the actual kind of building out of the execution of the movie so I know that the scripts are usually pretty detailed in terms of what you're gonna shoot and how you're gonna shoot it but I don't in terms of choreography and song and This that movement in the editing style that you described Are you writing through all of that? Are you saying like we're going to see in These quick-cutting moments this kind of like euphoric experience of being inside of this Religion or this sex yeah for sure. I mean for for example beautiful treasures is described, you know It's a series as a movement piece you're you're you're you're moving through the stance or movement sequence where she's With all the circular spinning movements that and then you have scenes and moments that intercut with that With all of these births and and losses and the sexuality as well So that's that's written out as so like this is here's nine years of her life that we see through this one piece of movement and song Did the songs in choreography exist before you're writing the script? No, I wrote this braiding. I wrote the script first and then I started working with Daniel right away and Celia shortly thereafter um Daniel first because we would give Celia music and demos to work with as well So um Daniel Blumbergani would we start started talking the first thing we dove into was um the very first song the woman Closed by the sun, which was like our first true exploration of what this what the music and the score and the songs could be Be like and that's that's an original piece that's based on shaker Unshaker text And and that was for the first thing we were talking about was like we wanted to we had a we wanted to use bells That's the only instrument to begin with and then breathwork and and percussion as as part of the movement so Using all of the sounds that you hear when you're like the the slaps and the hits and the even down to like I'm the finger moving across the table like all of those sounds just really being a big part of The music and I it's very important to me and I spoke to Daniel and Steve our wonderful mixer as well about this that There's never going to be a separation between the worlds that we are in and the music is not going to be Like a typical musical where you the diogenic world dies out and and the music overtakes um, no, I want to I want the world to be as present if not even more within the music um, so we started diving into different kind of shaker hymns and um and into the shaker music tradition and we knew that we wanted to use a lot of their traditional hymns and then um and then writing something that was original a few pieces ever original as well But not until after we really had understood their musical tradition and then Again, the same as you do with research you try and understand their tradition and then you have you make it We make it your own I wanted there to be Daniel's Conversation with the shaker tradition and so I wanted there to be a lot of Daniel in there as well I'm the same with Celia as well as like I was showing her All of the research I had very specific images and ideas of things I wanted to do movement wise um There was based on shaker drawings and um and paintings and some dan sanitation as well That they had that we found in their archives, but Beyond that I also wanted it to be Celia Celia's I wanted Celia's choreography as well in her language to be brought in and then combine that with the research as well So I saw the film a second time yesterday with my wife and I said what would you like to know about the making of the movie because she was kind of like I've not seen a film like this before and she said I have to assume that the person who made it has a background in dance, but I didn't actually didn't know if you did and then you sat down and you said I Did you study as a ballerina? Yes, I danced for my name is four years old until I was 18 Then had a back in trees. I stopped dancing um, but I um yes, I dance. Oh, but it's like a film that understands dance It's so such a part of my how I work as a director It's it's really even though I haven't I mean I used to direct music videos when I started out, but I For me The camera movement and the and the performers movement The relationship between the Those two is it's always choreography. It's always a dance from me Finding that right rhythm finding that correct rhythm like if you're Finding the edit with movement and and having movement always be guiding your your edit as well It's just such a big part of it. So for me, this is just like a continued exploration of that and just very very exciting and fun to to work with With Ancelia my choreographer we you know, we've known each other for almost 20 years Such a long history. So we have a really lovely shorthand and and um It was I would bring I would have my cinematographer and our camera operator As well would come in in the dance studio and and work with us during rehearsals Um early on even we were doing early workshops with Amanda and and with our 25 dancers um and so we would they come in So that I can start working not just with adjusting the choreography, but um but also adjusting the camera movement and really Working then with them and saying I want you guys to be here with with your team and move in this way And then work with Celia say now can you adjust you know 200 people to like or pull out 25 to make room for us because this is where I want the movement to be so it's it's a It's about really about everyone understanding that language together and practicing. I love how they fit together It's really it's gorgeous and you can see the intentionality with the way that the camera's moving around this big world that you've made It's really Quite impressive. I you know, I know you guys have talked about this a lot over the years But you make these what seem like extraordinary scaled movies at lower budgets Yeah independently yep You know, I know people asking you about the ship, but the ship is one of those things from like I don't I just don't know how you Where where did that ship come from? How did you pull this off for a quote-unquote smaller film But even just the period costume and the sense of being out in the world and immigrating to a new country and kind of like Transforming the environment that they're in from one segment of the film to another I don't really understand it what little I understand about how you find its film So like can you talk a little bit about doing it for this film? Yeah, I mean so It you know, it's not a necessity that we One like we I won't we want to tell these kind of we want to tell an epic grand story and then we do make independent films and The stories are quite radical. So it you know, it's just it's just kind of this is what it is. I I I would you know, it's it's hard to do it obviously. It's challenging, but Part of me also I'm excited by the challenge because it does It just inspire more it inspires creative solutions. So One of the things that I did on this film It's new to this film is that I we brought back a traditional matte painter So we would I would shoot for example this ship when the ship is docked a shot We I found the ship in Sweden the only tall ship that was available in the world that we luckily were allowed to shoot at So that's a real ship um and when that ship and I shot that ship docked in that white shot and then I had this wonderful manly tow key hand painted um the surroundings and then we shoot that on film and we scan that back in and then we with our VFX company We'd married it to images and then I add a little bit of movement a tiny bit of VFX like some birds and some humans and some animals to it um and some more movements to the sales just so this is a combination of old and a new technique which I really enjoy there's a slightly like slightly artificial um feel to it or very but it's very painterly I I couldn't afford to do massive CG builds like you know like you would do with a period piece now if you have all the money in the world But it's bad I would you've done is better I mean I prefer for me but I just for for this movie I just really prefer this look for like this feel to it it feels organic it's handmade everything in the movie's handmade If there's so much craftsmanship and in the film that is you know like down to us finding shaker blueprints and and building in their style and Laura Amanda and Lewis never one learning woodworking from the interpreters at the Hancock Shakeville it like a wood joinery and making pegs and It's just we we all just became so obsessed with the craftsmanship and it so even just bringing back Lee So Lee took wood he would paint you know all of our little set extensions So we would you know and I would work with my cinematographer and my production designer all the way from pre-production Into end-of-post production with my cinematographer joining every conversation with Lee and saying Listen, I think we need to adjust the light slightly here So it matches what we shot or There's a bow to the lens that you we need to um recreate at the top corner here or you know and or my production designer Was I oh no this this windows seal right there is it's it's a little bit off in the period and we shouldn't you know Just I mean we just we could go on forever We we just kept going until it was like pencils down. We're just obsessing of these details and But it was really wonderful because we you know I wanted the film to feel like you Like crawled into a painting And by bringing back you know Lee and his his way of working I really felt like it was evoking the past but then adding in our collaboration with the VFX company It's you bringing in a little bit of the future. It's an exciting place to be at I think that's so interesting I was very randomly on the universal studios lot tour recently with my four-year-old and The tour is like just a series of rides now except for one thing There is this tank that has a giant blue wall. I don't know if you've ever seen it But they've shot many films in front of this giant blue wall Kind of representing in a similar fashion using that style To create different environments, but now it's just like a stop on a tour. It's not something that studios use anymore They don't use that wall Yeah, so the best movies ever made use this incredible tool that you built that still stands Yeah, so it's very cool that you've done that it's exciting to do and it's exciting to bring back those techniques But my thought around doing it on the small budget is also that they you know they Filmmakers used to do figure it out somehow before we even had these other extraordinary modern tools So it's I was like there must be a way like how do they do it? How do they move you know cameras around like that? You know the boat we I couldn't afford a big enough crane To shoot the overhead shots on the boat So we built an arm and we rigged it off the rain tower It was crazy But it worked and it was beautiful and you know, it's it's a lot Of course, it's a lot of like if you you know the boat there was only a few angles that I could shoot on it For it for the exterior's for it to work and I had to also have the sales low Up in order to for it to work as well So it's just like all of these things that really had to come together and you just You know you're up You know, it's so for in the morning trying to figure out how to get a bunch of people from Belgium to come and The only people in the world who can rig these sales, you know things like that where you just like you just have like You know terrible heartburn and using one and you know Just you terrified that it's not gonna all come together So I would love to have it a little bit more security in my life But uh and when it comes to these things, but also you know Somehow we you know you figure out ways to make it work and and Yeah, that's you get called audacious On the flip side of it. So there's a phrase in the film that popped out to me the second time I saw it um that appears a couple of times and I want just wanted to hear you talk about where it came from which was Exteriorized rottenness And I was like that I've not heard those words together in that way before and they you know they were they recur in the film and felt like a very modern condition Uh-huh and not a not a 17th or 18th century condition from their testament You know, it's just something that they that they and end from From the from from the Bible that they're again. So it is a it's an old it's an old term is so that I just thought it was so It's a wonderful description of like Yeah, like you know just like opening it all up and just letting it all out and and And it's just it's just such a it's wonderful, but I can't take credit for it. It's from their testament This is very powerful very resonant. Yeah, um, I do want to hear a little bit about the collaboration with Amanda I know you guys have known each other for a long time you worked together previously This seems like a hard job Being and Lee this seems like a very hard like a challenging performance for a variety of reasons like there's a huge emotional swings in terms of Which yes to portray I read a bit about some of the prosthetics that you guys talked about during the birthing sequences Which seemed pretty extreme obviously choreography Performance singing woodworking So it's a it's a it's a full plate Yeah, it sounds like you were pretty direct about what would be expected of her when you guys were talking about doing it But I'm I'd like to hear you just kind of talk about the collaboration and what was what was challenging? What was easy about doing it together? What she was adept at what she wasn't as adept at maybe that she had to learn I mean, I was like she had to learn everything I mean she's she's a great singer. She's a great mover and she's a great actress but You know, I've it's this is a difficult accent. So she started Mediously she started a year in advance working on it Um, she's such a hard worker Amanda um, she's really thrilled she she gives everything when she's doing something She doesn't do something half play like that's just not who she is and I knew that about her and I knew that she was gonna give me everything because we had We meet we had great conversations about this character very early on about this project and um, and we had a really wonderful experience working together and directing her was easy for me Um, sometimes you have to take spend a lot of time trying to find the key into a performer I like that. I like trying and finding it and then all of a sudden you're like, okay, something if it doesn't click right away and you It's my job to really try and find what is it how can I help you best as your first the first viewer First the movie go where you're watching you perform how can I how can I help you and guide you um and um But with Amanda for you know, it was just a very easy immediately. We spoke the same language um, so Uh, when we said yeah, she said she had to so she she but she I didn't know that she was gonna give me this much time It was very generous, but she cared so much she cared as much as me She connected with this role and she wanted to do she knew how hard it was gonna be um and she was ready to just go full force and start the work So she started doing accent work uh, year in advance with tenor and martial art wonderful accent um Designer really because she built this accent because no one knew how they really spoke back then So this is based on a lot of research that she did and then she started working with With Celia and myself on on the movement and um and with Daniel and I we started singing immediately So it was just a lot of prep work because she Everything had to come from this place of of just honest truthful um movement honest truthful singing It couldn't be performative it couldn't be musical theater in the traditional sense um Even though she's amazing at that that's not what this story or this character required so it had to come from She had to sort of really relearn how like retrain de-trained herself from oh, you know She's just sings she's just a great she's so you know sort of great singer and it's so she's so skilled So she had to kind of unlearn that and just start trying to find a place where she's just not listening to herself and So we started going into the studio and singing through I'm imagining giving birth or whispering or screaming or laughing or just try and just find ways of really just Connecting in a different way to her voice and the same with the movement as well Celia really her thought was okay. I'm going to create this choreography. I'm going to give you this piece of movement But now it's yours. I don't care about it being perfect I always was saying to Celia like I don't want to see dancing. I just want to see movement We would we just wanted to see a movement and And so now you own this movement and it doesn't have to it just has to be with a lot of intent The intent needs to be like in your fingertips in every like needs to be go all the way out here And all the way down to your toes, but it can be your intent and it can be your story and it doesn't have to be all about Oh, I'm going to do in this perfect, you know beautiful piece of movement But you know, it's it's she she gave it gave us everything and was willing to do all that work and then so then when we came on set The hard things are of course that you're dancing Covered and snow and rain and mud or in every single day There's like I have 10 goats on the cow and a baby in a scene, you know It's just all of those things. It just makes it harder, but I think that both of them and I thrive in those environments and Kind of maximalists and you really she gives herself to the moment and when you've done all your homework You can't then you can rest in that moment and just let every let the surroundings affect you I agree that this is not musical theatery, but would you ever consider making this a stage musical? Definitely could play Yeah, yes, if there's Interesting that to be would love to do that. I think I Think the music and the movements so exciting and and I just I can look at I would love to I would love I would love for people to see the movement in on a stage because I I exclude some like pretty fantastic things right just because it's not right for the story and it's not right for the character to be for the camera to be an observer Most of the time the camera has to be a believer it has to be intimate it has to be with and and her story and her journey and There's like some glorious like parts of uh of this choreography like hunger and thirst. That's a beautiful movement piece and it's I should just like post it on on YouTube or something There were so many of us because I really love the movement piece, but in the end I just needed that that sequence needed to be one continuous handheld take that's just with her But I still feel the movement so much I feel the intent of the movement in that scene and it's just so delicious and I Would love to I would love to for someone to see it on stage even just as a one-time only it could be yeah Maybe we'll do like a special movement tonight in New York. That would be cool. Yeah Um we're doing a concert in the UK of those all the music all the music yeah with Amanda and Daniel Incredible wow, so she'll sing this you the him sing all of it. Yes. Wow. Yeah, amazing um Will you continue working in the independent mode like this film's got distribution from a major studio Disney searchlight is distributing this movie crazy right crazy is that it's very exciting. Thank you I am yes, it's so we always said that Amanda was like a little bit of uh Like a little bit of like a fucked up Disney princess and this film while that was Brady's joke as we were making She's kind of her persona. I think I'm large You know, it is it isn't I love that for her I love that for this character and then it's you know, it's with searchlight. Which is so wonderful But does that now that you've been kind of escorted into like a slightly How more Hollywood Experience here in the aftermath of making the movie does that give you any ideas? Could you guys work In the worlds of Hollywood in this way in in this time or do you think you'll stick to We make our movies the way that we want to make them we you know get financing the best way that we know how I'm just curious. Yeah, I will always make the movies the way I want to make them And if the studio want to make them with me the way that I want to make them then that makes them sure I mean that I don't have any there's not like a I have a philosophy about filmmaking not just about the stories I tell but a bit about How we build the projects as well and that is important to me um Down to even the economy of it. There's this is your hand. We is coming out here. Well, there's so There is because there is you're creating a small community and how that community functions is important to me um that everyone is taking care of uh and that there is uh Not too much of a Not a hierarchy that is negative hierarchy that there is that that that doesn't exist that of course everyone has roles that they fill and Because dangerous things can happen on film sets because you're rigging electricity big lights You're doing stunts all these things Everyone needs to do the job that they're assigned to do of course. It's like you know Like you're on a ship or in the army or something that you have there there there it has to be precise but The creative sort of to create a creative environment whenever anyone can come to my monitor We can all talk and we're all part of creating something together and that sense of unity is incredibly important to me So I hope that and I don't know how to fully preserve that and I don't know how to have all the autonomy that I need Which is you know final cuts and all these things that are To preserve that within the Hollywood You know universe. I don't know. I don't know if that how You know some people do there's some great filmmakers who've done that for their whole career um and maybe maybe I get to not have to You know Uh work so hard on the on the financing part in the future, but I do want to preserve them I do want it to make sense still so There's a sustainability element here. That's important to me a little bit. Um, I mean that I want I feel a great responsibility when I'm making when I'm telling a story for it also I feel a responsibility for people who put the money in as well. I wanted to make sense You know in every way when the film comes out as well. So You tell a really radical story and I don't I don't I would love for it to reach So many people that's possible. We can't always guarantee that and maybe some doesn't take time. Mm-hmm And I guess I'm I feel anxious about not making everyone whole and making sure that everyone every single person is you know That they made sense for them as well. So I think there's like that all of that autonomy that I get from Keeping the budget at a quite reasonable place. Um feels good to me That being said when my favorite movies of all time is lovers on the bridge And one of the most expensive films in You know the history of French filmmaking and it was and did not make his money back It was not it was a you know it was Really But I would and I would be hardbroken if that film didn't exist. So it's not really it's not about like You know that it that it's a bad saying that you make a beautiful piece of art and then over time, you know Maybe it just you should just be I'm just glad they exist But I think I I think also maybe being being a woman as well There's like a really in this really heavily male dominated profession. I feel The need and the want for every aspect of it to work and to make sense and I don't know maybe that's something I have to get over. No, no, but I do feel I feel that need for it Just like I want the whole process. I want to understand the whole process from beginning to end from you know Writing to the film is on you know your stream or or whatnot and that whole process. I want it I want to somehow be and slightly somehow in part of it and really and understand it for it to to fully like make sense for the project Yeah, I always say it's an art form, but it is a commercial art form right? It's a it is a release art form You're meant to share with many people's possibly you are um and it's exciting if you can do something that's Radical and that pushes boundaries and ideas within that format. I I I am you know, I grew up in Norway and I I've spent my adult life in America My films have always been an American European co-production of some sort I that that space in between the two is is is a place I really love There's elements. I don't want my films to be um my films are are there I find them to be To speak to the Hollywood tradition as much as it speaks to the European Um for both of the other thing I write and the things I direct I really love American movies and you know we're here in the city of David Lynch Spielberg and you know there's I and I love I love those I love the grand you know American movies This is like a John Ford movie, but with music in it. I mean A hero conquering America in some ways and another way is not Yeah, and I wanted to not to that with the story because I felt her being this this you know This a dacious feminist you know religious leader, but then to try and give her a little bit of that Hollywood treatment. It's exciting to me So if Hollywood wants to come along on some of these things that sure That would be great, but you know if not then It's I know how to do it. I know how to build these movies and and execute them and make them happen and you know Um if I can't find distributor who wants to put it out then we'll figure that out too. I think there's You can you can always learn about this process and there's lots of good people that you can hire will work with you and Yeah, but now being with luxurious distributor for this Strange lady and Lee is fabulous. It's wonderful. I'll be watching regardless Mono we end every episode of this show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they had seen Don't know if you've been watching movies on your journeys Yes, I have been watching movies on my journeys The last great thing that I saw well, I mean I I presented a print of lovers on the bridge and sack harbor at the cinema out there Oh amazing. I'm be were there So, uh, I mean that was so beautiful to see that print. It was stunning. It was so hard to see it. Did you see it upon release? No, I I mean, I was young uh with what year did it come out in mid 90s rain. Yeah, I guess I saw it upon release son I would imagine yeah And back in Norway what is it about that movie that uh, I think it's I think it's the ambition and I think it's the Physicality there's a lot of movement in this well, which is like incredible. It's like one of the best most incredible Physical performance performance to artists and and and performances that it that exists and Juliette I don't know there's seeing it now it was making was bringing tears to my eyes because it really made me think so much about How many in New York now that you know that there's a crisis with people who are you know unhoused people and In here as well obviously and just seeing this like beautiful like romantic wonderful love story From their perspective as like I'm happy to I think we should more people should revisit that film Now right now. Yeah, thanks Mona. No, thanks. Thanks for having me Okay, thanks to Mona fastful. Thanks to Chris Ryan CR Third chair in our hearts. Thanks to our producer Jack Sanders for his work on today's episode Uh, we'll be back next week with a draft. Oh, yeah, it's a Matt Damon and Ben Affleck draft The cause for such draft is the film the rip I already I made my long list already It's like harder choices have never been made for me personally. We tried this once before Yeah with George Clooney and Brad Pitt didn't Complicated episode. Yeah, I guess we'd seen Wolf's wolf's wolf's wolf's wolf's It's I'm a fixed wolves and that wolf. Yeah, but all illustrious moments in our cultural history um We had seen wolf's but we still wanted to do the draft. I was I was also really pregnant at that point um What happened you have the baby? I think so yeah worked out uh, I think this will be good. I'm excited I think so too. There's a lot of good stuff to choose from we'll see you then