Patti Smith Pt III

After Faye Fruits Yoga, I'm never going back So fruity, so thick, so gorgeous from the packets called Faye Fruits Yoga It's a smooth and fruity snack Gimme, gimme that Faye Passion fruit or strawberry flavour, my way And taste the coconut, gimme that Faye Go down to the shops for this fruity snack After Faye Fruits Yoga, there's no going back Switch to Plastnet's award-winning fourth fibre from just $22.99 a month Our sweet deal gets you fast and reliable broadband with no activation fee With speeds up to 900 megabits Ooh, feels like a sugar rush Full fibre that's full of value That's a plus Offer ends 6th of May I've been thinking about getting back into suspenders Okay And I do realise I said back into suspenders Because there was a previous era of suspenders, yes There was a weird, because I've been thinking a lot, like indie sleaze has become this big thing again And I was firmly a part of that scene in New York City in the mid to late 2000s And I did have a bit of a phase in which I wore suspenders with deep v-neck American apparel t-shirts I've always wanted to see that Yeah Can I? You know what? We're gonna get back into that Not gonna know No more deep v-necks for me I will dig up out of my indie sleaze archives And maybe I will put something on Instagram Because I looked horrible and amazing all at the same time Just like everybody did back then What does this have to do with Faddy Smith? She wore suspenders on the cover of her debut album Dulles, that was, oh actually they were not Really? No, they were not suspenders You see, I'm here to tell you, to tell you different Are you well-actualing me? I'm fucking suspenders? Welcome to New Dogs in Space I'm Carolee de Dolgo I'm Marcus Parks Welcome to Paddy Smith part 3, motherfuckers Yes, thank you I'd like to thank you all for not coming to Peter Frampton tonight Ladies and gentlemen, I really appreciate you guys coming out Checking out our show, it's not live No It's not live No, not yet It feels, it's gonna be live It's coming We'll let you know about that soon As soon as we can But we should start the show Yeah, let's start the show And you know what? Carolee is starting us off today Yeah, it's a fun opposite day here at the LPN Studios Alright, so last week where we last left off Paddy Smith had been performing with her band at CBGBs Every week for months to an almost empty crowd But by the time record executive and Columbia Records president Clive Davis saw her on stage one night in 1975 She had amassed a pretty big cult following Which packed out the venue to the point where CBGBs became legendary on its own God damn right Yes No, I'm not done yet There's more to come So Clive Davis quickly signed Paddy on his new Erisa Records A label with an unprecedented 7 album deal and a $750,000 advance That's unprecedented because Paddy Smith was a poet turned rock and roll singer In a downtown underground scene This was huge And what else? Paddy, who had come to New York City 8 years earlier Broke and homeless looking for work in a place to stay Had only agreed to sign to the label as long as she had Get this, complete artistic control Ooh, good and bad both, we'll get to that later It wasn't about the dollar signs It was important that she did it exactly the way she wanted to do it No compromises And so of course this is important because this is her debut album Which is gonna be so much more than just singing songs and putting it on tape Which I know I realize record the label of people I do realize that is a lot more But with this particular story Paddy Smith has clear objectives And just like many poets, artists and songwriters She has something to say God damn right And for Paddy Smith, the culmination of everything she'd been working towards Since arriving in New York City with $30 to her name 8 years earlier Was put on full display in her groundbreaking debut album Horses Boy was in the hallway drinking a glass of tea From the other end of the hallway rhythm was generating Another boy was sliding up the hallway His gold mirrored emerge perfectly He merged perfectly with the hallway And the door around the mirror He merged perfectly with the mirror in the hallway The boy looked at Johnny Johnny wanted to run but the movie kept moving as planned The boy took Johnny He pressed on against a locker He drove it in, he drove it home And Johnny, the boy disappeared Johnny fell in his knees Started crashing his head against a locker Started crashing his head against a locker Started laughing his stirp knee When, suddenly, Johnny Gets a feeling His beard's around the back Horses, horses, horses, horses Coming in in all directions white Shining silver Stuck with a nose in flames He saw horses, horses, horses, horses, horses, horses, horses, horses, horses Saying no to her nickname Like boning a wrong name Seeing her twist Where it goes like this, it goes like this Baby, imagine Tata Baby, allocate I Baby, allocate I'm a twister, twister Like a baby sister, a little baby sister And it goes on for another 8 and a half minutes I know, it's great, I love that It's incredible, that song is absolutely fucking incredible Now concerning those objectives that Carolina mentioned First and foremost was the mixture of poetry and rock and roll And the song we just played, Land, that is a prime example of that alchemy See when the Patti Smith group wrote a song, it usually started with one of the instrumentalists Riffin' on something like a three-chord garage rock roundabout We talked about that last episode, three chords merged with the power of the word Or you'd have a piano progression by keyboardist Richard Sol But either way, it was always something rooted in rock and roll Then Patti would either improvise or leaf through the piles of poems she'd written throughout the early 70s Because remember, between the time she performed for the first time at St. Mark's Church And when she rejoined Lenny Kay for their second performance two and a half years later She'd published two books of poetry Land, the song we just played, for example Partly inspired by a William S. Burroughs novel called The Wild Boys The Wild Boys! Sorry, every time we hear the title, I always have to put my arms out of The Wild Boys The Wild Boys! Hey, do you guys keep this in stock? The Wild Boys! Yeah, she's doing the Muppet Arm Wave right now Sorry, because they're wild! And then the guys named Johnny, this is the point Guys named Johnny But Land is actually three poems put together with not a hell of a lot of singing when you really examine the whole song Starting with a pitch black nightmare of a poem called Horses in which a boy named Johnny is brutally assaulted in a locker room The scene shifts at the climax of the first act when Johnny becomes surrounded by the eponymous Horses Who gallop right into the rock and roll land of Boney Moroney in the second poem Land of a Thousand Dances And after a few minutes of a three chord twist that borrows Wilson Pickett's song of the same name Poetry and rock and roll come together in the song's climax with the poem La Mer Which name checks Patty's herodic bed, La Mer? I know, I'm sorry, does that mean like the ocean or shit? I think it means the ocean Oh, Mer Mer, though I'm sorry, I didn't do a lingo for a week Well that name checks Patty's heroic hero, Rimbo in one line, does the Watusi in the next And cinches it all together with his skull shot open, cold snakes, white and shiny, twirling and encircling It's classic Buck and Patty Smith And also Johnny stabs himself in the neck in the middle of it, it's dark as shit, it's wonderful Yeah, and then that last part was about the stages of Jimi Hendrix's death or something, that was cool Of course, we got a whole sea of possibilities No no doubt Patty's first and most important objective was a soaring success Because otherwise we wouldn't be talking about this fucking album if it wasn't But her second objective had everything to do with where the Patty Smith group recorded the album Oh yeah, because she insisted that they go back to Jimi Hendrix's Electric Lady studios to record horses And remember when we said in part two, Jimi Hendrix, he didn't get to realize his plan for his own recording studio He was going to bring all the musicians around the world, they were going to go play in some sort of jambay drum circle thing And then they were going to come back and record the universal language of music or something And so unfortunately his mid plans were not realized because Jimi Hendrix died about a month later in Europe After the launch of his Electric Lady studios So it's up to Patty now, I mean she's not going to do any of that No She's up to Patty to record the album that she set out to do So she made it her mission to acknowledge artists like Jimi Hendrix, she had to forge a link that she keeps saying So she mentions Jimi Hendrix and Land, the song we just heard about the stages of his death And then she writes an allergy about him and then she also includes Jim Morrison Because as we said in part one, watching him perform live inspired her to merge poetry with rock and roll like Peter Potter and chocolate And it's great But Jim Morrison unfortunately died in 1971, a year after Jimi Hendrix died So remember Patty Smith was there to see all of this happening Don't forget about Janice Joplin Living in New York City in the late 60s was a little bit dangerous Yeah, not only that but she had a, Patty Smith had a specific connection to Janice Joplin That's true, yes, and we talked about part two So these people are dropping like flies, Janice Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, Jim Morrison, Brian Jones They all died between 1969 and 1971 That's the infamous 27 Club Also, if you also think about it, it's the J Club as well I do remember reading that Johnny Winter lost his fucking mind when he's like another one There's no more fucking J's left, man, there's no more fucking J's left, it's gonna be me, bro And then Robert Maplethorpe actually tried to comfort Johnny Winter saying like, it's alright, man But then he go over to Patty and was like, that is weird And then Patty, he read it, but Patty did read Johnny Winter's, like this is all in the book, just get to read it Patty read Johnny Winter's tarot cards and she didn't see death in them, so he was fine And he lived to be 70, so she was right Well, actually death doesn't necessarily mean death when you're going through a tarot card reading Oh god, I hate tarot cards Anyway, so for Patty's second objective for this album is, as I said, working on a link between the great artists before who unfortunately had just died around the time that she was coming up and the emerging artists of her time And that includes her band, the Patty Smith group, which is comprised of Lenny Kay on lead guitar Richard Sol, the classically trained pianist What are you, 14? Yeah, I am, Ivan Crawl on bass and JD Daughteria on drums So the five of them walk into Electric Lady Studios with some songs prepared, some not so much But with very clear intentions of what kind of record it was going to be Basically, Patty's going to make an art form out of studio recording Now to produce horses, Patty Smith chose the best guy you could choose to do that She chose John Kale John Kale's only five years out from his brilliant tenure as half of the genius that made up the core of the Vovun Underground's original lineup Since Kale had left though, he'd become both a solo artist and a record producer By the time he was tapped for horses, he'd already helped in the creation of Punk by producing the first Stooges album He'd pushed that creation even further by producing the debut for the Modern Lovers And he'd even put a gigantic stamp on Alternative Falk by producing the first two albums from his old Velvet Underground bandmate, Nico Nico! You know they call him the midwife of Pog Stop using the dishwasher, it takes too long, it uses too much water I don't like it when you use the glue traps because I can hear the rats screaming I told you use the cruelty-free ones They don't fucking work, Nico They don't, we try But all that aside, Patty said in a 1976 interview, perhaps facetiously That she partly chose John Kale for the same reason that she stole a copy of Rainbow's Illuminations when she was a teenager That is pure physical attraction Now I will concede that this sounds shallow And it plays into a lot of the criticism that Patty Smith has gotten over the years And especially the criticism that she got from her peers in the 70s But when you take the knee-jerk slut-shaming out of the equation I think that maybe we can examine just how much sexual attraction plays a positive part in Patty Smith's collaborations with men For example, when she first saw the band Television at CBGB's She openly admitted that she was mostly focused on how badly she wanted to fuck the long-nets guitarist, Tom Verlaine And of course Verlaine later played guitar to great effect on both her first single and her debut album She'd also had a long emotional and sexual relationship with Robert Maplethorpe during her formative years And that of course shaped her as an artist, Patty Smith would not be Patty Smith without Robert Maplethorpe And that's not even a mention of her illicit affair with Pulitzer Prize winning playwright Sam Shepard Of course that resulted in the play Cowboy Mouth Wow! It's almost like it's a good idea! So we should listen to her pussy While some might see sexual attraction as a shallow reason for picking collaborators and idols And you might consider it star fucking at best, I think it's a manifestation of Patty's instincts as an artist Damn straight! But she also liked his solo records and how good they sounded So maybe she's just trying to be a little cute about it but she does her homework Yes she really does! I think that her sexual desires, at least in the early years I think they're inextricably linked to a creative instinct and that's why horses kinda make you horny It's even outside of Patty Smith's orgasmic delivery of GLORIA on the opening track That's right, Little Richard did the same shit, you know? He did coming from an orgy and he'd be like, someone give me a piano! If he could do it, Patty Smith could do it and anyone could do it Goddamn right, I mean if you try, that's what Patty Smith understood about rock and roll from the very beginning That's what excited her about it, she wrote about it in Cree Magazine when she first saw the Rolling Stones That is the horniest article I've ever read in my life That's what it's about, rock and roll and sex are inextricably linked And so on stage when she performs, she has this certain animal magnetism That's what John Kale said because he flew to New York to watch her perform live before they started the album And that's when he saw that animal magnetism And he reminded him of Iggy Pop in many ways And like, you know, she's so unique and so wild with this totally insane energy that can barely be contained Yeah, feral almost Yes, but also kinda funny and vulnerable and human, just like Iggy Pop Yeah Very much so And remember John Kale, he produced Iggy Pop, so he's like, okay I can figure this out But the thing is, once he started working with Patty Smith, he's like, okay that's general Patton over there She was a whole different kind of person, she was extremely guarded and protective over the recordings, the music, her bandmates, everything She was not afraid to be confrontational, she would constantly be in John Kale's face Like, I don't want this overproduced or too corporate or glamorized, like I'm not here to make stadium rock I want this to be a record by real rock and roll people, no compromises And so for the next five weeks from midnight to like 6-7 in the morning, they recorded Most of all, they argued Yes, John and Patty argued about nearly every single thing, every day there was a new argument Patty wanted to get looser, she wanted more spontaneity, like why do we have to fix anything in post? And what's scratch vocals? Why can't they just sing it great every time? The magic's there, just press record, you know, we don't have to add any shit to it Basically it's like a salad, right? Okay, alright, alright Patty wanted like some lettuce, maybe cut some tomatoes, cucumber, cucumber's good, throw that in But John wanted to throw a lot of shit in it, you know, a bunch of stuff you don't need, some sprouts, you know, some avocados And the little tomatoes, the little cherry ones that never taste good when you bite And then they spit out like the other tomato stuff I love those, I'm on John Kale's side, I love those cherry tomatoes Cheese, tangerine slices, why do you fucking put that in salad? Anyway, so he was going through his Beach Boys phase, so he's like, let's add this and this and that Oh yeah, he's trying to make it sound like pet sounds No shit in my salad! Put shit in Patty's salad! Alright, alright, alright So yes, he had a lot more structure in mind, right? He's gonna mold her, that's what he's thinking Well, he's also trying to contain this feral wild child at the same time And at one point John even asked like, why did he, do you even pick me to be your producer? And Patty said, I like how your records sound And John said, you fool, you should have hired my engineer Which I love that he said, he called her a fool You fool, which I'd imagine in a Welsh accent probably sounds great That's not even the first time we've had this, this is the second series in a row where somebody has had that fucking problem Remember when the replacements hired Tommy Erdely because they loved how the Ramones sounded And they found out they really wanted Ed Stacium because Ed Stacium was the engineer for the Ramones They don't know what they want So between the tears streaming down their faces and John Cale banging his head against the control board There were moments of brilliance Like when John put Patty's voice on the forefront of the mix and had her improvise against herself Meaning they would do several takes, sometimes louder, sometimes softer, sometimes screaming Seeing how she uses language and improvisation Because he noticed when he recorded with Lou Reed in the Velvet Underground That Lou Reed would use a lot of psychological insights Like Edie Sedgwick, oh femme fatale, doesn't she have a few problems? Things like that But Patty, she was different She was channeling more from a Methodist preacher rhythm Like a preaching rhythm kind of thing that she was going with She was almost speaking in tongues sometimes Yeah, it's had a doubt So that's when John Cale figured, I just gotta push her to keep going I don't care if she drives me crazy, I'm gonna drive her crazy back Let's record Birdland So for Birdland, this song, it started out as a short poem that turned into this nine minute long Improvisational world of a fever dream that took hold when Patty was behind the mic in the recording booth She said this experience was like nothing she's ever experienced before It was transcended Yeah, now to that point, Birdland is a bit of a beautiful mess, let's call it I love it Yeah, I fucking adore it, I listened to it last night I figured out last night that the walk from our house to the pharmacy and back is one Birdland You know, it's also two Meredith Brooks' bitch songs, by the way So you know Well Birdland is Patty's attempt at being a human saxophone, as she put it Channeling the spirit of one of her musical heroes, Charlie Bird Parker But just like Improvised Jazz will have its flubs and foibles Unless it's played by a master like Charlie Parker or Thelonious Monk So too does Patty Smith's Birdland have stumbles and drawn out consonants Like when she says slits trying to find the next line However, that does not mean that Birdland is meaningless or aimless It actually has my vote for the best song ever written about the overwhelming, sometimes manic and constantly confusing nature Of what people say it's like to have an experience with a UFO It's the best UFO song ever written You're not crazy, you didn't think you were going to walk in and talk about this today Here we are I'll also say right here that Patty Smith does know her shit when it comes to UFOs Because in her memoir Just Kids, she briefly name checks Paranormal and occult author Colin Wilson Which we've used as a source on last podcast dozens of fucking times But Paranormal cred aside, Patty's Improvised performance perfectly captures the moment when belief meets hope When the human brain creates something paranormal, something that doesn't care if it's in or out of reality Which is exactly what was created by the protagonist in Birdland But nobody, huh, the boys cry alone Nobody there, except for the birds, around the New England farm And they gathered in all directions, like the roses they scattered And they were like conference class, coming together into the head of a shining bouquet Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss in the studio, at least for the most, nah, is that okay? It was complete. Like they kind of had something to start with. Yeah. And then they were gonna see where it was gonna go. And it was supposed to take like five, six minutes. And they're like, okay, we're wrapping it up. And that's when John Kale was like, no, keep going. Yeah, nine minutes, 16 seconds. Patti Smith and her band, however, did come to the sessions with structured songs that were written from Patti's own experiences. Although tracks one and two, both pre-written songs achieved Patti's third objective by accident. See, in the mid-70s, when Horses was released with Gloria as the first track, it was the track that we started this whole fucking series with. It was standard for a female singer covering a male singer song to change gender perspective when it came to the singer's objective affection. But in Gloria, it would have been impossible for Patti to change the gender unless she changed the song to fucking George or something, which would have been funny, but stupid. So stupid. But since she didn't do that, it very much sounds upon first listen that Patti Smith really, really wants to fuck this girl named Gloria. All right. Here she comes, wasn't to the poor, in a fetish, said, oh, she looks so good. Oh, she looks so fine. And her gun was crazy thin, and we were gonna I make my mind and I hear this mug on my door. Here's another mug on my door. And I look up and the big tower's locked and said, oh my God, here's midnight. And my baby is walking through the door, laying on my couch. She was missing me in our team at the big lunch. And oh, she was so sweet. Oh, she was so fine. And I'm gonna tell the world we were gonna just I made a nightmare. Said, darling, do me a line. She told me a line. She whispered to me. She told me a line. And the nightmare's. And the nightmare's. And the nightmare's. And the nightmare's. J-ell. Oh. Ah. Ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay, ay. She has a oh-oh-oh-ay. Oh. Yes. She has a oh-oh-oh-ay. Gloria, D.L.A. Gloria, D.L.A. Gloria, D.L.A. Gloria, D.L.A. Now, a lot of bisexual, lesbian, and questioning women listened to Gloria and had their minds blown. Because here you had a woman who was unapologetically and very clearly lusting after another woman. And the track that came after Gloria only seemed to confirm it. Especially if you were in the know. Yeah, the song Redondo Beach, that's the one you're talking about. The track after. Okay, good. It's based on a poem that Patty wrote when she was still living at the Chelsea Hotel a few years back. And the story goes, her younger sister Linda was staying with her at the time and one day they had a loud argument. So Linda got up and left and she didn't come back until like very late that night, which led Patty to write a poem about a girl who goes to the beach to drown herself. This is, you know, it was an intrusive thought, you know, while she had while her sister was missing. But ever since she wrote it into a song, it's usually interpreted as a lesbian love song that ends in tragedy. And also Redondo Beach being a popular hangout spot for gay and lesbian people in the 70s. So this song and Gloria, like you said, are two classic examples of Patty going beyond sexuality and gender. Because Patty thinks of herself as just an artist. And just her art is limitless, free to move across many forms, barriers, genders, whatever, which I totally get because she's a poet. She's taking a personal story about her sister and giving it a little bit more of a universal approach. It's very well done. But I don't believe her intention was to reach out to everybody because she, the thing is that Patty, she had this particular type of person in mind who she felt could use some inspiration, especially when she was writing and recording horses. People who are different, different from their families or from their town or from society, people like her. You can pretty much, you can have the disenfranchised umbrella, right, the underrepresented, the freaks, the weirdos, the homosexuals, the liberals, the artists, the thinkers, the sex, you know, the creative people, all of us under one umbrella. It's like, this is a record made with you in mind to show that you are not alone. So many people in the lesbian community interpret this song, Redondo Beach, as a lesbian love song that ends in tragedy where the girl who drowns dies by suicide because she isn't accepted in society for being gay. It could very well be about that too. Boergy, man, right? It's Boergy. Okay. So it also has a reggae beat to it, which kind of gives it a BT feeling, which I don't know that was on purpose. No, that's the weirdest thing about it is that it's a reggae song. It's a reggae flavor. Yeah, it's a bit raw. A bit raw, Ga. It's a bit raw, Ga. Please enjoy. Redondo Beach is a beach where women love other women. How you gone gone? Oh, you're on the phone. Another dimension. Well, you never returned. Oh, you never done made. I ain't looking for you. How you gone gone? Down by the ocean. It was so disnob. Women all standing with shackle in their faces. Sad description. I was looking for you. Everyone was singing. I tried not to do it last night, but I did ask. I almost asked you all that, like, how long are you going to be gone gone? Because it is very catchy when you listen to it enough as many times as we have in the last five months. And that's not the only song written about a member of Patty's family. There's also another one on this album that was written by, remember her then-boyfriend, Alan Lanier. The keyboard is for Blue Oyster Cult. He wrote the music and Patty wrote the words, of course, the lyrics, about when her baby sister was born, when they were living in that... Get your baby sister. Okay, sorry. Okay, when her baby sister was born, when they were living, remember in rural South Jersey. And it's a beautiful song. It's called Kimberley. I love this song. It's very, with its Spanish stroll. Yeah. It's like a nice day in New York City, 1976. 1975. In the planets we'll shift. Boats of Jade will drop. In existence we'll stop. Little sister, the sky is falling. I don't mind, I don't mind. Little sister, the dates are calling on you. I don't mind. It's so funny when there's little moments of the doors just fucking pop out. You see that? Yeah, I hear that in the horses. Horses, that's total fucking, that is absolutely the end. That's the doors on that, on Kimberley, on the chorus of that. I just hear the kind of later period doors, more poppy doors. It's just inner fucking DNA, Jim Morrison. Switch to Plastnet's award winning four fibre from just $22.99 a month. Our sweet deal gets you fast and reliable broadband with no activation fee, with speeds up to 900 megabits. Feels like a sugar rush. Four fibre that's full of value. That's a plus. Offer ends 6th of May. But going back one more time, speaking of which, going back to the sexual energy of the album. Patty herself actually introduced sexual tension into the studio. Or at least that's how producer John Cale saw the situation. Oh, she did. She did. And it was glorious. See, Alan Lanier was, as Carolina mentioned, her boyfriend. And as she also mentioned, he'd co-written Kimberley, the song we just heard. But Patty was also fucking television guitarist Tom Berlain on the side. And Berlain contributed to horses by adding his signature nervous thousand bluebird guitar style to the soaring track, Break It Up. Lyrically, the song is about a dream Patty Smith had involving Jim Morrison. But from my reading of the song, or at least my instrumental reading of the song, Tom Berlain's guitar playing on Break It Up sounds like a guy trying to fuck better than the boyfriend and succeeding. Whoa. Listen to it. I believe you. You believe me. You believe me. Listen to it. Listen to the thrusts. And I wanna go. Break it up. Oh, please take this with you. Break it up. I can feel you breaking. I can feel you breaking. I can feel you breaking. I can feel you. I can feel you. I can feel you. I can feel you. So break it up. Oh, daddy, I'm coming. Break it up. I'm breaking up. And I'm falling for it. Break it up. Oh, baby, I'm coming. Break it up. Break it up. Break it up. Break it up. That was kind of sexy. Yes. Yes. Just before that part where she goes into the orgasmic delivery, she says, I'm coming. Okay. I need more evidence. Because it's based on a dream that Maddie Smith had when she saw like in her mind's eye. Jim Morrison was trapped with his wings like Prometheus and this marble slab and he couldn't break it up to get up and soar through. He was struggling to get free to freedom, but you're right. She's just coming. But also one thing I did, I don't know if you do mention it, but the tension was so insane that they almost got in each other's faces apparently because Alan Lanier from Blue Oyster Cult kind of felt like, because he was a big time rock star at that time and Tom Verlaine wasn't yet. But he was big time Alan, so he kind of felt like he needed a lot more respect than he got from John Kale or Lenny Kay. They're all like, you're just, how do you boyfriend to us? Who gives a shit? Yeah, you're a blue oyster cult. But they got a little bit in a tizzy. I mean, there's one account says they came to blows. That's one account that I heard. I think I got intense. I bet they like, I bet they slap fought a little bit. Like it was like, they just, you know that thing where like two guys who don't know how to fight, try to fight each other and they just kind of grapple with each other for a little bit and then. Yeah, just like kind of grabbing onto their shirt or something. Yeah, yeah, that might have happened once. But that's the thing. When you listen to Kimberly, that's a piano bass track. Like I said, it's a nice stroll. You know, it's, it's hand and arm walking down Avenue A on Sunday afternoon. It sounds like a song that you're right with your boyfriend. Break it up. Sounds like a dirty night that's stinky and sweaty and all the right fucking ways. It's written with the guy she was fucking about the guy she wished she could fuck. Jim Morrison. But the thing to remember about for Lane's presence is that he wasn't just brought into the studio to make Alan Lanier jealous or so Patty could play with Tom Verlane's emotions, although both of those things were certainly a consequence of her actions. In artistic terms, Verlane was brought in because Patty knew that he could add something to the song that no one else could see. Verlane was part of the new guard of rock and roll is more key moon by Verlane's band television. It's one of, if not the best early alternative albums of the seventies. Personal opinion. No, that's what she meant by new guard, new people, new ideas. And by bringing Tom Verlane into the studio for her debut album, Patty had achieved her fourth and final objective in recording horses, which was to bring the artists from the new generation along with her. Now break it up was one of the last songs recorded and by the end of the five weeks they spent recording and mixing the album, Patty Smith and John Kale have produced a classic, a revolution, one of the most influential albums of the decade, if not the century. Everything that Patty was and had went into the writing and recording of this album physically and mentally to the point where she dropped to just 93 pounds by the end of it. And so when it came time to shoot the cover photo, Patty chose an old friend who certainly understood the importance of sacrifice when it came to art. She made a call to her old friend, Robert Maplesor. Oh yeah, good old Robert. Remember her ex boyfriend, former roommate, artist, painter, sculptor, jeweler, Pogostick champion of 259th Street. Monkey owner. Yes, who would become a world famous photographer, particularly of the underground BDSM fetish scene. I was going to say New York, but I think this is a world, the worldly BDSM fetish scene. He started in New York, but definitely expanded. Yes, it expanded. So for the cover of horses, it's a very simple shot. It's a black and white photograph of Patty Smith standing against a white wall with this coolest shit look on her face staring directly at the camera or at Robert really who was behind the camera. It's so iconic. And even though Robert and Patty at this point when they were taking the photo, they had both moved on since their Chelsea Hotel day is there was no doubt that Robert was going to shoot this cover because Patty, she was his first model when he first started his career as a photographer. They still felt very close to one another, which is why he's just so perfect for this. So they picked the day and Robert said, okay, we're going to do this at Sam's penthouse apartment. Sam being Sam, Wagstaff, Robert's partner slash benefactor companion for life, pretty much kind of guy. They're like, okay, let's go to his penthouse. It's flooded with natural light and there's this triangle there that reflects the light from the window that looks really cool. I want to photograph you in front of it. And they're like, okay, great. That's it. They didn't discuss anything else about the shoot. The only direction Robert gave Patty was to come with a clean shirt. That was it. And Robert only took 12 photos until he decided, I got it. Like just holding is I got it. You got it. I got it. How do you know? I just know it's all like it's all set. What? Well, that was Robert Maple Thorpe's process. You know, like that's what he was famous for is like setting up a set. He'd set up this entire set. He would pose everyone just perfectly and just go click and go, all right, I got it. Yes. Well, he grew up poor, you know, in the sense where he only had a few photos to be able to use. So he learned how to use them economically. He'd be like, yeah, I don't need to take more than six pictures to find the right one. So yes, he's done many covers, but this is like the ultimate coolest cover. Patty wearing a button down white shirt that she got from the Salvation Army earlier that day, a black ribbon around her neck and tucked into her pants. Oh, it's a black ribbon. I always thought that suspenders. No, it's a black ribbon. Okay, great. Tucked into her pants and her blazer with a horse pin on the lapel just slung over her left shoulder. It looks so fucking cool. Yeah. Viv Albertine from the slits. She in her book, she when she saw that she's just like, she is my soul made visible. All the things I hide deep inside myself that can't come out. I've never seen a girl who looks like this. And that's the beauty of this. Patty Smith, just with that photo alone, redefined the role of women, rock scene forever. And Clive Davis, when he saw the cover, he's just like, no, I don't want it. Patty, she insisted. She looked at the total artistic control part of her contract and kept pointing at it constantly. And then Clive's like, fine. Don't make me tap the contract again. And Clive is like, why don't we airbrush at least a little bit, you know, the hair over your lip? You're a small mustache. And Patty's like, don't you fucking dare. I'm glad. I'm glad she refused to change a thing. Yeah. Because I like that she's sexy, but she doesn't have to be. She's not smiling or trying to be amenable to anybody or anywhere. She's just standing there on her own two feet for nobody else but herself. Well, what I love about it is that it's like she has somewhat of an arrogant look on her face, but you want to know why she's arrogant. What is it? Because she looks like she's got a secret, but you got to get in there. Fucking actually listen to it. If you can, if you want to, don't matter. She don't care. Yeah. And it's also sexy. Like it's very come hither. Now when Horses was released on November 10th, 1975, coincidentally, the same date as our wedding anniversary. Isn't that nice? We didn't get married in 1975, but we did get married in November 10th. The album was extremely divisive amongst both critics and the general public. Those that were quote unquote in the know, like village voice writer, Grail Marcus, who'd seen Patty perform live, he immediately got it and he loved it. Others, however, like the reviewer at the New York Times, rightfully acknowledged some people were simply going to find horses annoying, which I also get. I get it if you don't like it, but he nonetheless called it an extraordinary record. And the burgeoning New York punk scene, though, Patty had both her champions and her detractors. Joey Ramone is a fucking gigantic Patty Smith fan from day one, but Maxis Kansas City DJ and punk also ran Jane County. She despised Patty to the point where she actually spent time writing and performing a roasty kind of lame parody of land in which Smith's chant of horses, horses was replaced with will to beast, will to beast. It's not clever. It doesn't. Yeah. It's not clever. No. Similarly, over at Melody Maker in the UK, it was written that horses represented everything that was wrong with rock and roll in the mid 70s. They thought that horses was an example of the quote unquote affected, affected amateurism that was quickly overtaking the Emerson, Lake and Palmer prog rock that Melody Maker preferred. They were like the Muso's journal. So I saw the Muso's. Yeah. I had to look up what Muso meant. And it's like someone that's like really good at stuff. Oh, technically proficient. Yeah. No, they wanted nine minute organ solos, which I'm also down for. Don't get me wrong. But Melody Maker, they saw that punk is coming and they didn't like it. But based on the good reviews and on the eye catching cover, horses actually did well commercially by reaching number 47 on the billboard 200, which was good for any release, much less a collection of arty rock poems. It's sold 200,000 copies the first year. Yeah. That is a huge success. Yes. And so what the commercial success of horses proved was that this downtown New York rock scene centered around a scuzzy little club. It could move units, both television and blondie signed to chrysalis records. Television, by the way, I think also had a Robert Maples or cover while Seymour Stein's sire label would sign the Ramones in addition to another arty or CVGV band that was more influenced by visual art than poetry. That band was another surprising hit. The Talking Hits. From just like me, you can walk, you can walk just like me. You can look, tell me what you see. You can look, you're watching everything that gives you the world, the world, the world. You can look, tell me what you see. You can look, tell me what you see. You can look, tell me what you see. I wish we could be talking heads. Maybe one day, maybe they'll all speak to each other. A book that we can really use. Not just because if you want to hear fucking three, four episodes of he said she said, yeah, then maybe, but I don't know. Anyway, back to Patty. Yes, back to Patty. Here we are. It's 1976 and the Patty Smith group goes on tour to promote horses. And around the beginning of the horses tour, they stopped in Detroit where someone met a special someone. That's right. Lenny Kay met Fred Sonic Smith from the MC5. Lenny Kay met. Who then met Patty Smith? Here's Fred Sonic Smith, Sonic's rendezvous band. Here's Fred Sonic Smith, Sonic's rendezvous band. My favorite I want to say is, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. Here's what you say, come on by. He filmed a couple of video segments for this episode. It's also the one with the Basematic on it, Dan Aykroyd's Basematic. That's true. Love that sketch. About a month later, the Patti Smith group traveled overseas for their first European tour, and during two shows in London, the band would transform the British punk scene, even if the scene in the UK was just as split on their opinion of Patti as everyone was in America. Now, the tour was set to end in London, but to drum up interest prior to the gig, the Patti Smith group appeared on a British live music showcase called the Old Grey Whistle Test. Now, the musical acumen of this performance wasn't necessarily top notch, because Lenny Kay's guitar was out of tune, and at least one solo was played in the wrong key entirely, way far off. But Patti Smith's incredible energy and her performance of land matched up with Hey Joe. It helped sell out the last two shows of the tour, set for the Roundhouse in London. But by the time the band got to those shows, they'd played seven European dates in seven days, no small feat. So the Patti Smith group was very fucking tired by the time they made it to London. Therefore, the performances themselves got mixed reviews at the time, but it wasn't necessarily the shows themselves that were important. Much like the so-called Sex Pistols gig that changed the world in Manchester, it was the audience that made Patti Smith's Roundhouse shows legendary. Yes, but first let's talk about the mixed reviews, because the British press, they were all there. So, Annamine New Musical Express loved it. Melody Maker, hey did it. Sounds, it was great. Great, great, great. It was so great. I'm writing it all day long. It was great. But the audience loved it. You see, it was sold out. It was packed. Everyone was jumping up and down, pogoing, arms flailing, all of them. All 1700 people following Patti's Every Move. And one of them was a Portuguese student named Ana da Silva. She said the show that night was life-changing. She watched Patti take a flower, put it in her mouth and spat it out. And I'm like, that's what I think about your flower power. It was so cool. Ana said like, I'll never forget that till the day I die. And in the next year, Ana would meet Gina Birch and together they'll form the raincoats. The raincoats, of course, being one of the most important underground post-punk fans of all time and the precursor to the Riot Girl generation. Just saying. They were there. And also at that show was Paloma Romero, a.k.a. Paul Malin, who would later be in the raincoats for a time as well. But before that, she was a 21-year-old Spanish drummer who had been kicked out of Sid Vicious's band, The Flowers of Romance, because she looked too much like a hippie, a.k.a. she had a mouth and she wasn't hot enough for him. Yeah, so Paloma would rightly pissed off, set off to start an all-girl band with her buddy Kate Kors. But they needed a lead singer, a front woman as strong as Patti. And they find her at the Patti Smith concert. Of course! At the Roundhouse show, they met 14-year-old Ari up who was throwing a tantrum at her mother just making this huge scene. And that's when Paloma realized, I want that girl to front our new band. And then after Kate left, they added two other Patti Smith bands, a bassist named Tessa Pollitt and Viv Albertine on guitar to form The Slits. Tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tick tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle, tickle to get Paul Malov's boyfriend to front their new band, this guy who called himself Woody Millor. He's not a golfer. You see, Woody was a fantastic guitar player and frontman. His band did classic rock and R&B covers of Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley, and they would usually end their set with a rendition of Gloria, the same garage rock song that Patty ... Obviously, you know, you can listen, you know. But that's not because of Patty. That song was just a staple in many local pub rock bands at the time. But you see, Woody didn't want to be in a band just doing 20 year old R&B covers and bars all over town. He wanted to play more original music and be a part of something exciting, and his band just wasn't quite there, especially when the Sex Pistols opened for them and tore the place apart with their insanely nihilistic, exciting madhouse of a show. And that night, when Mick Jones and Paul Simonen came up to Woody and said, you're great, but your band's shit, Woody ... Listen, actually, he called himself Joe Strummer by then. And the next month, when he saw Patty Smith at the roundhouse, he couldn't stop raving about it for weeks. He knew he had to leave his band and do something exciting, but not before doing a few gigs he already committed to. So here he is with his band, the one-on-oneers, only a few days after the roundhouse shows and a week from joining and fronting the clash. And he still can't stop talking about Patty Smith even when he's on stage. I'm waiting for one of those kind of people, which is hearing after I call women. Okay, okay, okay. Okay. Now you see, I'm waiting in my bad flat, uptown. You know the kind of box, conquerry box, with a little bit of luck. Yeah, I'm waiting, you know. Now, I call my baby and she said she'd be around here by about midnight, so I can wait till midnight. I can just hang around and wait. I can't hear a sound. No, I can't hear a sound. I can't hear a sound. It's all I'm calling it. I'm calling it. It's all I'm calling it. I'm calling it. I'm calling it. I'm calling it. I'm calling it. I'm calling it. I mean, okay, the one-on-oneers are still pretty fucking good. Oh, yeah. They're fantastic. They really are. Yeah, I'm used to my heart. I fucking love that song. Yeah. Now, just like New York City, Patti Smith had her detractors and her champions in the UK. Of course, Joe Strummer, obvious champion. Johnny Rotten, not so much. Johnny Rotten of the Sex Pistols hated Patti Smith's whole shtick, given her debut album, Two Out of Ten for Effort in an interview. That's one more than I thought it would give. However, in that same thought, Rotten also gave her book grudging respect, noting that he liked her for having to be physically carried up the stairs after her second roundhouse show. But with Patti Smith's next album. That means he was there. Yeah, he was there. He's just the whole, he still came to both fucking shows. That's the thing about Johnny Rotten. Why did you show up to my kids christening to tell you it sucks? But with Patti Smith's next album, recorded less than a year after Horses, she lost the respect of most of her champions and gave her detractors even more shit to throw in her direction. Although I'm not sure this album entirely deserves its bad reputation. I'm not necessarily going to defend it a hundred percent like Patti Smith and Lenny K. do, but it doesn't deserve the hate that it gets. Now, perhaps thinking back on what hell making Horses had been with an artistic producer like John Kale, Patti Smith bypassed others of Kale's ilk like David Bowie and Brian Eno. And this was before Bowie produced Iggy Pops, the idiot, and before Brian Eno produced the best three talking heads albums. That is to say, Patti Smith could have been the first person to collaborate with these artists who also proved to be incredible producers, meaning she missed an opportunity to create even more groundbreaking material. I mean, technically Bowie had produced Raw Power, but yeah, no. Yeah, we know. We know. Instead, though, Patti went in the complete opposite direction and chose a top 40 producer, Jack Douglas, who was known mostly for producing four incredibly successful Aerosmith records. Now, it's debatable as to whether or not Patti Smith was gunning specifically for a top 40 hit when she made this album. But what you can't argue with is that when her second album Radio Ethiopia was released, what she'd produced was a comparatively straightforward 70s heavy rock album. Yeah. Now, if you're into that sort of thing, Radio Ethiopia really doesn't get enough credit for being a solid addition to the 70s heavy rock space. It's the type of stuff Ed Larson listens to. And I think that's Ed scene, man. And I got to fucking give him Radio Ethiopia when we get out there. But I think it does give you a glimpse into that alternate reality we talked about in episode two where Patti Smith became lead singer of Blue Oyster Cult. Actually, you can hear a lot of different artistic influences in Radio Ethiopia, both coming and going. My personal favorite song is poppies in which one can hear just a hint of Tom Waits, who was interestingly during those years being described in the UK Press as the male Patti Smith. It's right. I mean, I could go actually, I spent a long time listening to like Tom Waits records before and after horses and I can, you know, it's been up all. If you go between the hardest Saturday night and small changes, a big difference. Okay. Just get it taken out. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe it's just me. God damn, I hear a lot of Tom Waits in that. I hear the influence, you know. You know, he marcus practices all the time, but the, but the microphone's not plugged in. Whenever we do this, maybe I'm crazy. But I'm glad it's plugged in this time. But at the end of it, Radio Ethiopia just doesn't have the blood of horses as Gregory Corso might have put it. It's not raw. It's not dirty. And it's not even sexy when it wants to be. Instead of the intellectual Tantric yoga mixed with the sweaty Lower East Side nights that you get with horses, Radio Ethiopia, it's more like a sloppy hand job from Stevie Nicks. Well, yeah, I'm sorry, Stevie Nicks. I'm sure they're not sloppy. Oh, is that bad thing? I don't know if that's a bad thing. I'll never apologize to Stevie Nicks for anything. She knows what she did. To that point, the album's most popular song, Pissing in the River, it does help the hitmaking argument, even if the word piss is in the title. Because from my hearing, it gives off some pretty heavy Fleetwood Mac vibes. You know what you did, Stevie. Oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh, my, oh Oh,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, It's a heavy rock album. I like it. I like it. That's my favorite song on the album. And you know, I've been crawl. He wrote that song and he was he was pissed off. That Patty used the word pissing instead of like, why can't you say showering or swimming or something? Drowning. Yeah, because of that, it's not radio friendly. Yeah. And but Patty defended her use of pissing because it's her lyrics and her poetry. And this is also this is a weird time of transition for Patty personally and career wise. Like she was having problems with her boyfriend Alan Laniere from the Blue Oyster quote. And then by next year, they would break up, which would propel her relationship with Fred Sondack Smith to become more serious. But he was married at the time. So the whole thing is complicated. It had to work itself out. It's going to take a long, a long time, a lot of emotions there. Then that's what she was going through at the time. And she was also working a ton, like touring constantly, just stopping just for a little bit to record Radio Ethiopia and then back on tour. She wasn't writing a lot of poetry, not like she used to. And she just she said she couldn't find her words for a while, which I understand. Well, that's one of the things that we talk about you with how much me and you work is when you're working on something creative, you have to take time to live. Like if you don't take time to live, then your art suffers. Yeah, that is that is very true. And when Radio Ethiopia came out, it was not well received. Like everyone, even people who who loved her critics fans, they all thought she was either playing it safe, or she was full of shit. Or it was good, but not as good as it should have been. Yeah, like Charles, Char, Char Murray in New Musical Express, he said, this is my favorite line. It's a shame. It's a shame. It's a shame, really. British big show. Anyway, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Radio Ethiopia had a real soggy bottom. Yes. So Patty. Big claggy. Actually, I would describe Radio Ethiopia as a bit claggy. So Patty, she was touring a lot and doing a lot of these new songs that were tried and tested on our audiences night after night. So, you know, what went wrong? And if I could do a bit of a speculative read here. Sure, speculate. Okay, I think maybe Patty was getting a bit self involved with her message, her band and herself. Oh, you think? Yes, starting to feel real important, becoming a rock star, believing in her own hype. This is something a lot of people fall into. And then when Patty got herself a guitar and focused on the sonic soundscapes, basically feedback, basically hitting the guitar, she was just making noise with it, which is fine. But some people compared it to Yoko Ono's music. Yeah. It just felt insincere, even though I get why she needed a new medium, right? She didn't have her words, she said. She can find them. So she just carried the guitar around, not learned how to play it and, you know, and then started making noises with it. It's not quite the same thing as like New York Dolls, like, oh, they can't play well. It's like, well, at least they learned a few chords, you know, that kind of thing. And so with Patty, her just her rock star attitude just really didn't help things along with that. No. And speaking of the, you know, the sonic soundscapes, like, I get what she's doing with that. I get what she's trying for. But, you know, it's again, you know, she spent years working on her craft with art. She spent years working on her craft with poetry. You can't just pick up a fucking guitar and say, I'm going to do sonic soundscapes now without figuring out how it works. Oh, she did, though. She did all those things that you said you can't do. Well, you can't, you can't do it and expect. Hell, I can't. Patty Smith. Well, you can't expect people to applaud you for it. You can't expect it to be good. Yeah, you kind of have to just not care what people think. And that's totally fine if that's, if that's the way you want to go by it, right? Yeah. So, but anyway, so this is, this is all playing into her rock star attitude at this point in her life. Because like earlier in the year, when Patty Smith group were playing in Los Angeles at the Roxy, the runaways were invited to the show because Lenny Kay was a fan. He even wore their t-shirt on stage and everything. But when the runaways went backstage to meet Patty, she immediately put her hand up at them and angrily said, you girls out. Like she just yelled at them. She kicked them out of a room like they were like children without a second thought. And Lenny Kay was just like, okay, you know, he went over to the runaways to Joan Jett and Jerry, all of them is like, try to explain like, I don't think she understands what's going on here. You know, you guys aren't part of her world. So, and that's when lead singer, the runaways, 17 year old, Cherry Curie said, not a part of her world. She's not a part of our world. Yeah. And that's the thing. Like they, you should read the, the interview that the runaways did, because they're total teenagers. They're like, oh, we hate her. Her saggy tits are so annoying. Actually Joan Jett and another member said saggy tits in unison as if that's been the conversation they've been having for weeks. They said horrible things about her. They're like, like, it's like no one likes her. But the thing is Patty was being awful. She did the same thing with the slits. When Patty went back to England to promote radio Ethiopia, the slits came backstage and the way Ari up tells it, she's like, I don't know what, she was like screaming like, get these flits out of here, get these brats out of here. Like she just didn't want anyone in her, in her room, in her purview whatsoever. She had become a total diva. And that's, and that is very hypocritical of her because she went into the recording of horses saying part of the fourth objective is to bring in the new guard, you know, is said, is to bring in these new people. That's the thing, is that these are the new people, the runaways, the slits. These are the people that she's trying to bring in to the new scene. And every time they try to talk to her, she's telling them to fuck off. Yes. Well, that's she's losing the message from what a lot of people said who knew her at the time. They said that she couldn't stand a female competition. Yes. That she wanted to be the most important female rocker of her time. So she was, and this is a quote, the most obnoxious bitch on feet. I thought I was like, wow, wow, what an insult. Usually people say bitch on wheels. I like bitch on feet better. So unfortunately, Patty contributed to the toxic scene of women being nasty to one another due to competition, insecurity, fear of being bullied, and it goes on and on. It's an ugly part of punk history, but it really needs reminding from time to time. And that wasn't all she also fought Patty also fought with the British press when she came back to England to promote radio Ethiopia. But in Patty's defense though, the British press are relentless. They are snakes. Okay. We've talked about it again and again with the Ramones with the Beastie Boys. They are vicious. The editor for Melody Maker already planned to hit her up with dumbass questions to annoy her and rattle her so she can act out and then they can sell more issues. That was already their meeting before going to the press conference. I read it in Alan Jones's book, Can't Stand Up for Falling Down, Rock and Roll War Stories. What a dick. I mean, you could say that's the strategy for pretty much every British journalist ever, but they really got her on this one. So, okay. So Alan Jones, he was there at the press conference telling Patty, you know, that the music and radio Ethiopia was totally inept, even though he hadn't even heard the album. He was trying to get her rattled, right? Patty then threw a plate of sandwiches at his head, so she fucking took the bait. And then Patty ended the press conference with a really loud, call me, field marshal. I'm the marshal of rock and roll and I'm fucking declaring war. My guitar is my machine gun. And then she just held it up over her head, her guitar. The guitar that she doesn't know how to play. And this sounds like something Dennis Hopper would say, you know, is something I went on a t-shirt. Or Gary Busey. Yes. So I read, I did read that someone did say like, for a two-year old, it would have been a very impressive performance. But from the Queen of Rock and Roll, it was like watching God jerk off. Okay. Anyway. No, it's hard. We're gonna hold her accountable. We're gonna hold her accountable. Yes, warts and all. Yeah. And that's the things that it's, it wasn't just the press that was turning on Patty. Like the British scene wasn't super jazzed about Patty Smith by this time either. No, not so much. I mean, she couldn't even sell out her venues anymore. And Richard Sol like had to back out due to exhaustion. So there was the hype that was there before kind of just fizzled out. And it fizzled out fast. And it's hard to say exactly what happened between the release of forces and Radio Ethiopia when it came to how the British fans received Patty Smith, particularly those in the burgeoning punk scene. See, before Radio Ethiopia's release, those who would become the British punks, they were already hopping off the Patty Smith train. And really, it could be a number of things. Perhaps the British didn't think they needed her anymore, because the sex pistols, the damned and the clash, they'd actually gotten good. Or perhaps the punk. Oh, remember, they also thought they, they were like the devil and should be stopped. But this is all just to sell newspapers. Yeah. Or perhaps they thought of her as a hippie, ironically too much a part of the old guard of rock and roll to truly be one of them. She was 30 and a lot of the, these younger people were in their early to mid twenties. And when you're that age, a 30 year old looks ancient to you or in their teens. Remember Ari up is 14 years old. Ari, Ari up the lead singer of the slits. She's 14. The runaways. They're 16, 17. That's true. But personally, when it comes to the UK, I think it's more a matter of comparison between Patty's first show at the roundhouse in May of 1976 and her second in October of that same year. If that's how fast the fucking punk see move. This is between May and October. London had been host to another CBGB band that was unmistakably punk, something me, something scary. And most importantly, something really fucking fast. On July 4th, 1975, London saw the Ramones. Oh boy. That was great. It's different. It's different. It's like Patty who, who? Yeah. Yeah. It's much different. I am not human. Like it's from that to That's also great. I'm not that old. Yes, I am. Like it's, yeah, it's all both are great. But man, the Ramones, that show, we talked about it in our Ramones series that blew everybody away that had ever come before. Yeah. And then so the next year, the Patty Smith group began 1977 with a stadium tour opening for Bob Seeger and the Silver Bullet Band. Hit it. I love that song. I fucking love Bob Seeger. And I do have, I guess a confession to make. The very first artist, the very first musical artist that I ever fell in love with that five years old was Bob Seeger. Wow. Yeah. Right. Old time rock and roll was I used to make my parents like pull out the record and put it on the turntable and play it over and over and over again. There was something about old time rock and roll was my, it was my first favorite song. Oh, why didn't we play that instead? Because then you go crazy. Start dancing like a toddler. Probably. No, no, no. The reason why is because that was the tour. That was Bob Seeger's, that was Bob Seeger's breakthrough. And when Patty Smith was touring with Bob Seeger, Night Moves was the big song. That was the closer. That's what everybody was waiting for. I have a huge gap in music history, apparently, because I know nothing about Bob Seeger. You don't need to. You really don't need to. This week, I learned that his band was called the Silver Bullet Band. Yeah. And then that's why I said it all weird. But you know what, maybe one day I'll dive in deep. I'll dive in deep. If anyone knows Bob Seeger, maybe he could give me a lesson on his life. Like, like he doesn't have time for that. Crisp, vibrant and bursting with citrus. Villamiria's New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc is the perfect wine made to be enjoyed on every occasion. Whether you're soaking up the sun in your garden, hosting a backyard barbecue, or unwinding after a long day, the zesty lime and lush tropical fruits are always delicious. Try Villamiria Sauvignon Blanc, a vibrant New Zealand wine that's perfect for every occasion. Available at all good wine retailers. Get the new Samsung Galaxy S26 on the UK's best network. Circle to search and outfit and find the entire look without switching apps. And claim a Samsung Galaxy Chromebook Go worth £299. Get yours on EE today. Results may vary depending on visual matches. Eligibility, credit check and term supply. Claim from Samsung within 30 days of purchase. Verify best network at EE.com. Anyway, so Paddy Smith group, they open for Bob Seeger and the Silver Bullet Band. And he's still going too. And he's still going. In Florida, in late January 1977, because as we said, why not? And Paddy and them, they figured let's go with an audience that's not too familiar with us. And so, which was an interesting idea because the first night, they didn't do well. No. And the second night, that was also a disaster. Yep. Because that show was in Tampa. January 23rd, 1977, they were in the middle of their set, trying their hardest to win over the crowd. When during the song, Ain't It Strange, Paddy took a bit of a tumble. She was singing the words, come on, God, make a move. It's true. And then she began spinning and spinning, like twirling around and around. And then when she stopped and reached for her microphone, she missed and tripped over a monitor and fell backward off the stage and down 14 feet to the concrete floor. She landed on her neck and hit her head hard. Hard, hard. She was then rushed to the hospital and got 22 stitches on her head. She fractured several vertebrae in her neck and spine, and she had to spend eight weeks in bed. But the one good thing that came out of that was that during her recovery, she started reading and working on her poetry again. I mean, she was stuck in bed, all, you know, like Frida Kahlo. Yeah. Like, this is what I have to do. I have to work my way back up. I need to get back. So she started working on her poetry. Yeah. And not only that, she also had a lot of her old literary friends come by the hospital and talk to her. She had Jim Carroll come by. She had Tom Verlaine come by. Yeah. Richard Hell came over with a typewriter. It's like, hey, let's get, let's get something going. Yeah. Which is great that she had a lot of, she had a lot of supporters there who were backing her on this as she worked on her first major poetry book, Babel. And then she started writing songs again. So that means she was getting her words back. And Patty, she was finally ready to get started on a new album and call it Easter. Basically, the idea of resurrection. She said it's about a phoenix rising from the ashes or also a person who just fell down and got up again. I mean, she's okay. So she's still got a little rock star mentality. She's like, I'm a fighter. Just like Jesus. But you know what, we're going to let her go with this. Your heart is heart sometimes. And pretty soon, Patty was out of traction and back in action. That's what the flyer said on her comeback shows at CBGB. And she tore her neck raised like off halfway through the set, which would have been really cool to see. Yeah, it would have been. And that was the, right? That was when she did the shows with the damned and the dead boys. And she just said, you guys out like the runaways. Yeah. But on the other hand, like the runaways and the sleds like, come on, that's going a little far with the damned. Yeah, get them out of there. Cause they're on the show too. And you know what? And that was actually the dams first show in America too. Was a matinee, that matinee show or playing the matinee before the Patty Smith comeback show. Yeah. It was the damned, the dead boys who also do not like Patty Smith. No, because, because it's the way they treated each other. Yeah. And so, but you know, it'll all work out. It'll all work out. And then in August of 1977, the Patty Smith group went to the studio to record Easter and Patty chose Jimmy Iovine as their producer. This new up and coming guy who had worked with John Lennon and Bruce Springsteen. This was his first producing job. But you know, let's see how he does. Let's see how he does. Yeah. I mean, that Jimmy Iovine is one of the most important fakers. The founder of Aiderscope. You know, he's, he's Dr. Dre's like business partner. Yeah. The thing that people listen to, the kids on the streets. What, how old am I? Old enough to not get suckered into buying a pair of beats. Yeah, that's true. And this guy is massive, massive in the music industry. Yeah. Now, but back then he was just in his twenties. Yeah. And, and he was just, this was his first producing job and, and Patty fought for him. She fought for him because she knew he was willing to work hard and, and, and spend hours and do whatever he gets to get the right sound. Yeah. And Jimmy Iovine at this time, like I'd describe him as halfway between John Kale and the guy that produced Radio Ethiopia, like a little bit more creative, but still knows how to make a fucking hit as we shall soon see. Now, I know it's going to be a controversial opinion, but I actually like Radio Ethiopia more than I like Easter. And sure, Easter's cover is iconic and it's got her most popular song, which we'll get to here in a bit. Ghost Dance is a great song and so on and so forth. But Easter kind of bugs me because it also has Patty Smith's best song musically, which gets entirely ruined by her own artistic hubris. Now, the song in question, which has recently been taken off all streaming platforms, not only has the N word in the title, but it uses the slurred no less than 11 times in three minutes and 24 seconds, all out of some misguided attempt to change the meaning of the N word to become a blanket term for outsider. Yeah. Like you said, it's hubris. I finally looked that up because the other day I was confused with hubris arrogance, but arrogance in the sense that there are consequences. And from the five months that we've been studying Patty Smith, my guess, that is my best guess that it's hubris. I don't believe that Patty Smith is racist or had any racist motivations, especially with the song. That album Easter, she wanted to name the whole album Rock and Roll and Work. I swear to God, she's like, it's like a spinal tap thing. It's like, you should have seen the cover they really wanted. Like, so she truly was totally hell bent on this idea of co-opting this word and using it for, you know, and trying to tell everyone to come along with this. But the truth is, it's not her word. No. Plain and simple. And a lot of people gave her shit about it and still do to this day. So from what I see, some people are completely turned off by her and don't listen to any of her stuff, which I understand. And other people just find it cringy even rather listen to Patty Smith's other songs, which I also understand. And other people just like the song and it doesn't bother them. Yeah. Okay, fine. But to me, I don't think she's a racist, but I do think that her stubbornness, her narrow thinking in this case, and sometimes putting it under the banner of art, doesn't magically make it okay. So it's on YouTube. Check it out if you want. Learn from the context that we gave you and make your own decision. And even if you decide it doesn't affect you, it can and does with other people around you. Just something to remember. Absolutely. And that's the thing. As you said, they thought they were going to pull it off. It goes even beyond the, like trying to name the album after this song. According to one of my personal sources, the Patty Smith group was so fucking sure that their new definition of the N word was going to take off. They had hundreds of pens made that simply printed the name of the song, racial slur and all, except it was abbreviated to R and R N word. Now, as we all know, the new definition did not catch on. And not a lot of people ended up pinning those buttons to their leather jacket and wearing them around New York city in 1977. Yes. And this is a true thing. 77, 79. But this is a real thing that Marcus told me probably like, you told me this years ago. Years ago. So we do have insider knowledge that this is a real thing that, that they were ready to blanket the whole city with. Oh, God. But that is to say that while it was a stupid, arrogant, pretentious artistic decision, even for 1979, it certainly wasn't one made in bad faith. Now, incredibly, the band, okay, it's not just the album. It's not just the fucking buttons. They, they actually push for this song to be the single. You want to watch? We need Paul Jambani on the phone. And that's the whole scene. God damn it, Patty. And it's, that's the thing. Admittedly, it's catchy as fuck. I mean, especially with its chorus of, you know, outside of society, that's where I want to be. But Jimmy Iovine and the record company knew that trying to make it the single, just like Patty's goal for the song, was a misguided fantasy. But around the same time that Iovine was producing Easter in New York's record plant studios, he was also engineering another album in the room right next door for another blue color artist from New Jersey who had a boatload of songs just ready to be recorded. Like dozens. Dozens upon dozens. The album was Darkness on the Edge of Town, and the artist was Bruce Springsteen. It wakes up tonight, trouble in the heartland that hit on collision, smashing in my guts, little Cody and my crossfire that I don't understand. But there's one thing I know for sure, girl, I don't go down to the same old play-doh teams that I don't give a damn for just in-betweens. When I want the heart, I want the soul, I want control right now. You better listen to me, baby, talk about a dream, try to make it real. You wake up in the night, and the fear is so real, you spend your life waiting for a moment that just don't come, no wasted time waiting. Badlands, you got a new little ordeal, but the broken arms stand, the price you gotta pay. Keep pushing till it's understood and these badlands are treated as good. Wasting in the fields, how do you get back, burning, working through wheels, how do you get to the facts? One day I got my facts, learn real good right now. You better get it straight, though, I'm gonna fucking address the East Street Band controversy that I introduced under the Charles Stark weather episode of Last Podcast on the Left. Remind me. I realized that my problem with Bruce Springsteen throughout the years was that I didn't dislike Bruce Springsteen, it's just that I preferred Bruce Springsteen without the East Street Band, although Darkness on the Edge of Town is my favorite Bruce Springsteen album with the East Street Band. So fucking I'm a complicated motherfucker. Yes, he's got many layers, remember, we shrek him all the time. Now, Springsteen had recorded a number of demos for Darkness on the Edge of Town that Iovine had been privy to and the songs that Springsteen was choosing for an album called Darkness on the Edge of Town, they weren't the catchiest and most romantic that he was writing at the time. So Iovine asked Bruce if he had anything that might work well for Patty's voice because hey, we need a single because you don't want to know what they want to use. So Springsteen offered up a tape of a demo that was mostly a lot of trademark Springsteen mumbling, but this demo had one very clear cut brilliant line because the night belongs to lovers. Yes, Bruce Springsteen, he spent over a year recording for this album and on the very first day in the studio, like one of the very first songs was this song. That's insane. Something about overthinking it. Just don't overthink it. Now, Patty took this demo to her apartment at One Fifth Avenue and listened to it over and over, all night long. And she listened to it while she was waiting for a call from Fred Sonic Smith, who was already the love of her life, whether she'd admitted it yet or not. But from the desire for Fred to call her came the line, love is a ring, the telephone. And by the next morning, Patty Smith had written all of the verses and added a line to the chorus that harkened back to the primal nature of her debut album because the night belongs to lust. This is it, our biggest hit. We're here. It's classic. Now trying to understand the way I feel when I'm in your head. Pick my hand from under cover. They can't hurt you now. Can't hurt you now. Can't hurt you now. Because the night belongs to love. Because the night belongs to lust. Because the night belongs to love. Because the night belongs to us. Ever death. You want to make a whole bunch of people in a bar happy all at once? Put that one on the fucking jukebox. I love this song. I fucking love this song. Yeah, of course. It's because of the night. I don't know why anyone would argue that because of the night is not a fucking amazing song. I'm sure I'll find someone. But I love this song personally. I do. When Patty heard the song because of the night when she got the demo and everything and wrote the lyrics, the next day she had a band meeting and told the guys, listen, I got this song. She's holding the tape. I got this song. It's a really great song. But the thing is you guys didn't write it. So if anyone has any objections, let me know and I can shut this down. She was going to throw the tape out the window or something. And the guys were like, no, no, no, no, no. What are you doing? I don't care that we didn't write it. We'll play it. We'll play it. So the song. Well, to be fair, Patty Smith did write most of the lyrics. It was like that Bruce Springsteen came up with the music and he came up with the chorus. But all of the verses are Patty Smith's. Yes, but she was afraid that her band would be mad that they didn't write the music to it. But they obviously they're like, who gives a fuck? Put it on. We need something. So the single was released on March 2nd, 1978, and it is a huge hit. It hits number 13 on the top 40 Billboard charts. It's a hit in America and all over the world. It goes to number one everywhere else. Everyone goes crazy for it. Finally, the first New York underground band to hit it in the mainstream. Blondie would follow less than a year later with Heart of Glass that we all know, of course, in love. But Patty, she's talking heads after that. The talking heads, it just goes on and on and on, which is fantastic. But Patty was soon going to be a stranger to New York, at least for a time. Because a month before, because the night came out and before Easter was released, she announced that she was moving to Detroit to live with her new love, Fred Sonic Smith. She was leaving. It was the end of an era. It really was. And there's actually a very nice full circle moment in Just Kids. It's actually one of my favorite passages where she's talking about walking around like Lower East Side with Robert Maple Thorpe at night. And because the night is coming out of every car stereo, it's coming out of every bar. And Robert Maple Thorpe is like so proud of her because he always wanted her to write a hit. He's like, you've got the talent. You've got just write a fucking hit. Just write a hit. And with them starting off the way they did and have it come full circle. Being homeless, having lettuce soup. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very, very nice moment. Yeah. Now, by the time Patty Smith went up to Bearsville Studios in upstate New York to record her fourth and final album of the 70s, Wave, it would probably be fair to say that she was decidedly over it when it came to being a rock star. She was tired. She was done. She and the band showed up with no prepared material. They'd barely rehearsed. There was like no pre-production at all. Nothing. And producer Todd Rungren, who we talked at length in one of our extra play episodes, he seemed to have been hired for the job partly because Patty just wanted to work with a friend whom she trusted artistically and personally. Now, of course it didn't hurt that Rungren had just produced Bad Out of Hell by Meatloaf, which is one of the best selling albums of all time. Of course I'm going to call my friend. Yeah. Remember he bought an estate in Hawaii off of that shit. Yes. But I think that Patty mostly just wanted to fucking hang out with a friend. Yeah. Why not? Yeah. But considering how lax the recording of Wave was, it's got some damn good songs, particularly Frederick and especially Dancing Barefoot. Now, Dancing Barefoot was released in 1979, but one could argue that this song was a huge influence on the sound of the entire next decade. You can hear the cure echo in the Bunnyman, the Smiths, Cape Butch, and a ton of other new wave artists that fell on the cooler side of the 80s in this song right here. Yeah, it's fucking everything. It's the next decade. It's the cool new wave. Yeah. I don't think you'd have that Cape Butch song running up that hill. I love that song. I've listened to it a hundred times. I know. They became so huge with Stranger Things this year. You wouldn't have that, I don't think, without Dancing Barefoot. But before the recording of Wave was even finished, Patty Smith had already told Todd Rungren that she was planning on retiring to live a life with Fred out in Detroit, doing whatever a young married couple might do. And so after a 42-day tour in half a dozen countries in support of Wave, in which Patty Smith very much didn't enjoy herself, the Patty Smith group played their final show in Florence, Italy on September 10, 1979, for a crowd of 70,000 people, which was a far cry from the 150 artsy fartsies that had seen Patty and Lenny in their debut at St. Mark's eight years before. After the show, in which a small riot broke out, Patty told her band that that's it. She wanted to live a life with Fred in Detroit raising kids where she could maybe grow up a little bit and take stock of her life. And that's exactly what she did. Yeah, six months after Patty left her group, she and Fred got married, and they raised two kids, a boy and a girl, in a Detroit suburb called St. Clair Shores. And while pregnant with her second child, Patty found out that Robert Mabel Thorpe was hospitalized with AIDS-related pneumonia. And unfortunately, he died on March 9, 1989. And then less than a year later, Richard Sol, the keyboardist in the Patty Smith group, passed away on June 3, 1990. Then the unimaginable happened. Patty's husband, Fred, who had been sick for some time, died of heart failure in November 1994. And then exactly a month later, her brother, Todd, would die of a coronary. He and Fred were only 45 and 46 years old. It's just tragedy after tragedy. And then Basis Diving Crawl would later pass away in late 2020 at the age of 71. RIP to all of them. Yeah. And thank Christ, Lenny Kaye's still going strong. Yes. We're very happy for that. Lenny Kaye's still fine. He just replaced, again, lightning strikes his new book. It's worth reading. Absolutely. And in the years after Patty walked away from the Patty Smith group in 1979, she released an album, Dream of Life with her husband, Fred, in 1988, and then released six more studio albums with many of her bandmates and other guests. She published Just Kids, her memoir that won the National Book Award. She published also several other books, working on photography, drawing, had exhibits in New York, London, in Paris, just to name a few. She was on an episode of Law and Order, inducted in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and became best friends with Michael Stipe. What a life. What a life. And she just released a new book. We had no, we've been working, seriously been working on this series for six months. And the week that we finish it, Patty Smith, surprisingly, just completely out of nowhere, released a book of photography. Yeah. And released a new song. Yeah. Release a new song today. Yes. Or remix of an old song, but still released a song today. So still going strong, still working hard. But to me, nothing compares to when she was booked to headline the last night at CBGBs on October 15, 2006, the place that got their start when she got her start. CBGBs. Okay. So it was already in limbo for like the past year and a half in like 2005, they almost shut down, but then got a last minute reprieve. Remember, I was there in 2005 that we're still here. We're still here. Yeah. Unfortunately, by late 2006, Hilly Crystal knew it was time to pack it up. You know, New York was never going to be New York again, but that's okay because they had a fantastic weekend of kick ass shows to commemorate the end of a very significant era. And it wasn't all sad and nostalgic and boo, no, no, no, no, it was like, fuck it. We're going to kick this in the ass and put on amazing shows for everyone. This is not a fucking temple. It's just what it is. Kids will find another club to play in. That's all Patty Smith said on stage while she played the last songs. She did, obviously, All Horses. She did all her big songs. It was a three hour set. Yes. Her with Lenny Kay, the rest of the band and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers got together. They played it like it was 1975 again, and as well as doing covers, the pale blue eyes, velvet underground and Blondie's the tightest high and giving Debbie Harry a shout out showing her respect to Debbie and hopefully ending years of awkward feuding and just a strong showing of support, women's solidarity. And as well as a cover to Dead Boys, who she also feuded with and just been like, hey, here, my hat's off to you guys. Well, it just it showed what Patty is capable of, packing a room, rocking it out and leaving people inspired. Very much so. Now concerning Patty Smith's legacy, I think that it goes far beyond just musical influence, although there's certainly no shortage of that. You can hear Patty Smith and PJ Harvey, R.A.M., Hole, all those bands and artists that I mentioned earlier, especially the Smiths and a thousand others. But Patty Smith's true contribution to culture is, I think, one of attitude and bravery. See, one of the arguments that me and Carolina have had in making this series is whether or not Patty Smith is cool. And honestly, I think she just isn't a lot of the time. But that's part of what makes her so fucking important. An artist of true courage, which is what I think a poet is. They're not cool. They say cringy shit. They do thoughtless things, and they make a lot of enemies along the way. But I think that sort of behavior is something that's necessary to finding essential truths. Poets find something personal and they make it universal. They plug into that part of the collective unconscious through a game of numbers, trying anything and everything until they finally find the connection that speaks to people who are craving for someone to articulate their truth. But to that point, you can't try to be Patty Smith. You don't have to move to New York with no money and find the perfect soulmate and meet famous writers and write poetry and fuse mediums and groundbreaking ways and so on and so forth. But you can live by her example. All you have to do is follow your own path just like she did and follow it wherever it may take you. Listen to yourself. Find your own way and retain the courage to keep walking it just like Patty Smith did. And if you find yourself stumbling, improvise and find a different beat just like Patty did again and again throughout her life. The important thing is that you have the satisfaction of knowing that the path you're walking is yours alone. And showing this way of life can work is ultimately Patty Smith's greatest gift. And that's Patty Smith, ladies and gentlemen. Wow, that's it. That's it. We have lots of sources. We have a lot of sources. Can I go through them really quick? Please do. All right, really quick. We're Credits Due. We read Just Kids by Patty Smith. National Book Award. Remember? Dancing Barefoot by Dave Thompson. Patty Smith Complete, 1975 to 2002. Really great book of her lyrics and she also explains a lot of stuff in them. Break it up. Patty Smith's Horses and the Remaking of Rock and Roll by Mark Patrice. And fantastic. I really like that one. Yes. And my favorite one is Why Patty Smith Matters by Karen Rose. Really insightful. I can't recommend that book enough. And also Patty Smith on Patty Smith, Interviews and Encounters, edited by Aidan Levy. Lightning Striking by Lenny Kay. Fantastic. What's Wells for Zen? The Autobiography of John Kale by Victor Bacchus and John Kale. And then I love this book, Joe Strummer and The Legend of the Clash by Chris Needs. Chris Needs is a solid, solid author and a squad, City Rocks, Protopunk and Beyond, a musical memoir from The Margins by Richard Dodansky. He was a drummer in the 101ers and the raincoats and everything. And of course, Love Goes to Buildings on Fire by Will Hermes. The Downtown Pop Underground by Kimbrue McLeod and Interviews on YouTube and whatever we can find online. The Patty Smith logbook.info. Great website. Super helpful and special thanks to Research Assistant Patrick Fisher for helping us out and outlining our main source. Oh boy. It was a lot. It was a lot. So thank you guys. Thank you everybody. Really, this is the end of an era for us as well. It is. And as we say goodbye to Patty Smith, so too do Caroline and I say goodbye to New York City. Yes, we're moving to LA. We're going to the West Coast. It's a little scary, but I'm also very, very excited for the future because there's so much that we have in store and I can't wait. I can't wait. More release dates. That's going to be beautiful. It's going to be a beautiful thing. And as far as why, you know, I can sum it up in four simple words. The reason why I think most people leave New York, it's time to go. It's time to go. We'll be back. We'll be back. And also, speaking of which, if you have out there, if you're an LA person, if you know where we should go to see local shows, where we should go to see local bands, where I should go for record shopping, you know, like just let us know. Send an email to nodogsandspace.com. And we would very much appreciate the guidance. Yes, we would. Thank you so much. And of course, if you are a person or a band that makes any kind of noise whatsoever and would love for us to play at the end of our episode, our main episodes, please send them to nodogsandspace.com. Send it to there only there, please. That way we have it all in one place and then that way we can play your song. It would be an honor to play your song because I know we got one that's awesome. Who's the band of the week? This week's band is Trash Sound Conglomerate out of Seattle. They fittingly describe themselves as Apocalypse Pop. I fucking love it. I think it's absolutely perfect. This is their newest single. It's released just last July. It's appropriately titled So Over Summer. I love, love, love this song and I know you will too. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at nodogspod. If you want to know Ducks and Space t-shirt, you can go to lastpodcastmarch.com. Thank you so much for being patient on this series. Thank you so much for taking this journey with us and we will be back soon with an extra play on Nuggets. Yes, we're going to do a little bit of Nuggets before we end the year and then we're going to have our next thing that we haven't thought of yet, our next series where we're going to do any suggestions. NoDucksandSpaceatGmail.com. Please and it's not just in the alternative space. Like I said, we've decided that we're going to do whatever the fuck we want. So the next one, it could be country, it could be hip hop, it could be metal, it could be old rock, it could be whatever we're just going to do whatever the fuck we want, whenever the fuck we want. That's right. Peace out. Later. Peace out. I don't know. Goodbye. I'm so tired but it's too hot and I can't sleep. I've been through and tired. Feels like the end of every scene. How do we survive? I've been through every summer. Now that the world's on fire. This whole thing's such a fire. But I'll get to the end. I heard tomorrow will be worse but I should look pretty cute in the glow of the wildfire. So let's make plans and run. I heard the storm clears out the downtown. So maybe we can breathe. I've been through all the summer. Now that the world's on fire. This whole thing's such a fire. But I'll get to the end. I don't think it's right. I've been through every summer. Now that the world's on fire. I've been through every summer. I've been through every summer. I've been through every summer. Now that the world's on fire. This whole thing's such a fire. But I'll get to the end. This show is made possible by listeners like you. Thanks to our ad sponsors, you can support our shows by supporting them. For more shows like the one you just listened to, go to lastpodcastnetwork.com. Saving Seekers, we hear you. Seeking energy savings, always keep your energy prices under the price cap. With Next Pledge, your energy prices are guaranteed to always stay below the price cap. Satisfy those savings cravings. Check out our full range of tailored energy solutions at eonnext.com forward slash save. 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