Navigating the Loneliness Epidemic with Mattering Author Jennifer Wallace

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone. It's Emily Simpson and Shane Simpson from the Legally Brunette podcast. Each week, we're bringing you true crime through a legal lens. Whether you want all the facts on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, or you still need to wrap your head around the ditty verdict, we're breaking it all down step by step. And we're not just lawyers. We're also husband and wife. It makes for some pretty entertaining episodes. Listen to Legally Brunette on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I have several conversations with God and I know why it took 20 years. To hear this and more, listen to Keep It Positive, sweetie, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Anna Navarro and on my new podcast, Bleep with Anna Navarro, I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world. Because I know deep down inside right now, we are all cursing and asking what the bleep is going on. Every week, I'm breaking down the biggest issues happening in our communities and around the world. I'm talking to people like Julie K. Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. The Justice Department, through we counted four presidential administrations, failed these victims. Listen to Bleep with Anna Navarro on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club is presented by Apple Books. Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. I'm your host, Danielle Robay, and this week we're talking about something fundamental, something at the core of who we are, mattering. What it means to mean something, to matter to someone, to have value and to serve a purpose. Today we're talking with journalist and author Jennifer Wallace about her new nonfiction book, Mattering. Jennifer spent six years interviewing people across different generations and backgrounds to understand why feeling replaceable or overlooked or invisible has become so common and what that tells us about the growing loneliness of modern life. And throughout it all, Jennifer asked two questions that have been sitting with me since we talked. What does it mean to feel like you matter? And what happens to us when we don't? So I want to ask you two questions as well. Do you feel like you matter? And do the people in your life know they matter to you? And yes, it's February and it is almost Valentine's Day. So of course, thoughts about connection are in the air. And I think this conversation invites us to think about connection in a deeper, more lasting way. Beyond romance and into the everyday moments where belonging is built. So if you've ever wondered whether you fit into the world or how to help others feel like they belong, you are exactly in the right place. Let's turn the page with Jennifer Wallace. Hi, Jennifer. Welcome to the club. Thanks for having me on. So you are a two-time author and your latest book is called Mattering and it's an exploration into how we can feel like we matter and why it is so important. And my first question for you is maybe a deceptively simple one. What does it mean to matter? Oh, that's a great question. So mattering is a fundamental human need that all of us have to feel valued and to have a chance to add value to the world. And this need is going unmet. And there are lots of reasons why it's going unmet today. But what researchers will tell you is that when you don't meet this need, you suffer. You feel lonely, anxious, depressed, a sense of meaningless in your life. Your relationships feel hollow. When the need is met, you thrive. You engage. You contribute. Your relationships feel deep and nurturing. So it is a critical human need that is going unmet, I would argue, to some extent, in every single person. I'm curious how we feel we matter in our own life. Is it the stories that we tell ourselves? Is it, if you're saying it's not our accomplishments, does so much of it stem from childhood? It does, but it doesn't mean if you didn't have that feeling that you can't find that feeling again. Mattering starts from the earliest of days. So when you are born, your instincts are there to matter. So just to give you like a little nerd out for a minute on mattering. Please. So researchers who study it say after the human drive for food and shelter, it's the need to matter that drives human behavior for better or for worse. So when we feel like we matter, we show up to the world in positive ways. We want to connect with people and contribute. When we are made to feel like we don't matter, we can withdraw, become anxious, depressed. We might turn to substances to try to alleviate that pain, or we might lash out in anger. School shooters, I think about online attacks, political extremes, road rage. These are desperate attempts by people to say, I'll show you I matter. So people will go to great lengths to meet this need, even if it is in self-destructive ways. This is really interesting because mattering seems like such a simple concept. It almost feels silly for me to ask you to define it. And yet I'm hearing you say that we are a culture that is totally lacking this basic need. What are some of the symptoms of a person or a culture, aside from the actions that you just named, where mattering is undervalued or lost? I think it's at the root of our loneliness epidemic. Our loneliness epidemic is not a mental health issue necessarily. It's a social health issue. So the idea that we don't feel like we matter to other people, that's what makes us feel lonely. So you could be in a relationship with someone. You could be in a family. You could work in a workplace and feel terribly lonely. And that is because you do not feel like you matter there. In workplaces, it's going unmet. The statistics are really alarming. 70% of people report being disengaged at work. Disengagement. 70% is a really high number. Really high number. And it's not only bad for companies, right? Loss in productivity, employees then leave and they go find other jobs, so they have to replace them. but engagement in, in mattering terms is a protective coping strategy. So if you are feeling like you don't matter at work, that's very painful. So the way you cope with it is you disengage. You say, well, I don't matter to you. You're not going to matter to me. I I'm sort of having a light bulb moment because for the last few years on social media or like in digital media, like The Cut, we hear all these sort of colloquialisms or jokes about quiet quitting or disengaging. And you're saying this is at the root of it. That's fascinating. Mattering, researchers describe it as a meta need or an umbrella term. So a need that is above all other needs. So it encompasses things like belonging, connection, purpose, but mattering goes deeper. So you can belong to a classroom, a family, a workplace, the accounting department, and not feel like you actually matter to the people there. So we talk so much as a culture about belonging. Belonging is important, but it doesn't go far enough, right? You can belong at the table and not feel like you matter to the people at that table. Mattering is really the missing need that is going unmet. I see this so often in religious institutions nowadays. Well, that's part of the reason why we don't feel like we matter. I mean, religion was not perfect, wasn't a panacea for everything, but it did give us this sense of unconditional worth. All the major religions have some element of you are worthy because you are a child of God. When religion does not play a role in your life, as a culture, especially here in the US, we've replaced religion with capitalism. So instead of saying you are unconditionally worthy, capitalism says you are worthy when you contribute to the system. And so I think it's why here as a culture, we do not prize children. We do not prize the elderly. We do not prize parents who stay at home because these are people who are not contributing to the capitalistic system. Or we're sending messages. You can buy your mattering. When I go and I speak with young people on college campuses and at their schools to talk about mattering, and I say to them, the next time you are on your phone and you're scrolling through Instagram, I want you to notice the next time you're feeling like you're not enough, You're not pretty enough. You're not good. You know, you're not fit enough. You're not social enough. I want you to think who is profiting off of making you feel like you're not enough because there's someone there and it's this big revelation for them. This idea, people are manipulating me into thinking I'm not enough, that I don't matter for who I am inside. So they could sell me a product so that, so I'll go and buy their makeup. So I'll go and, and wear their clothes. So what I'm trying to do with matter to me, mattering is a way of reinforcing this idea that all of us have unconditional worth. I think that's so beautiful. And I really agree. I always feel like everybody has something really special about them and something that is their purpose. So I love how you're wording it. Do you remember the first time you felt like you mattered? So I will say I was lucky to grow up in a family and an extended family that made me feel like I mattered. I think the first time I felt like I mattered though, really like in an adult sense was when I was in college and I was home for a January break. It was like a long month long break. And my grandmother was going through chemo. She had stage four cancer and my mother was working. And so my mother said, would you drive your grandmother to and from the chemo appointments? And at the time I thought, oh, this is just, you know, logistics that I'm just here to like get her there. She didn't, she couldn't drive. But I really was like, wow, she's really dependent on me. Like I am, I am really contributing to her life. And so that was the first time where I felt this sort of adult sense of mattering that people were relying on me. That's one of the important ingredients to mattering is feeling relied and depended on. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Anna Navarro, and on my new podcast, Bleep with Anna Navarro, I talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world Because I know deep down inside right now we are all cursing and asking what the bleep is going on I talking to people like Julie K Brown who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. These victims have been let down time and time again for decades and decades and decades by local law enforcement, by federal law enforcement, by administration after administration. The Justice Department, through I think we counted four presidential administrations, failed these victims. Listen to Bleep with Ana Navarro as part of the My Cultura podcast network, available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, it's Emily Simpson and Shane Simpson from the Legally Brunette podcast. Each week, we're bringing you true crime through a legal lens. Whether you want all the facts on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, or you still need to wrap your head around the ditty verdict, we're breaking it all down step by step. And we're not just lawyers, we're also husband and wife. It makes for some pretty entertaining episodes. Listen to Legally Brunette on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Segregation in the day, integration at night. When segregation was the law, one mysterious Black club owner had his own rules. We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping in another world. Inside Charlie's place, Black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it. You saw the KKK? Yeah, they were dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him. From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and Visit Myrtle Beach comes Charlie's Place, a story that was nearly lost to time. Until now. Listen to Charlie's Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. do you feel like the rise of technology and potentially ai in our future um really hurts humans mattering because what i'm hearing from you is that a lot of it is like feeling useful yes so that's exactly right and to be in community with people so i do think social media can play a role if you are living in a rural area and you don't have people around you who you feel like can identify with you and build community with you. I think so many people find solace in online communities and where they feel a sense of being known and seen for who they are. So I don't think tech and social media are all bad. What I think tech has done though, is, you know, in Silicon Valley, they talk a lot about creating a frictionless experience. So a frictionless experience is with the click of a button, you can order your Amazon package and have it delivered to your door. The click of a button, you can order your Uber Eats and have it delivered to your door and you don't have to interact with people ever. And what it has done is I think it has recalibrated our expectations in life, that we expect life to be frictionless, that we expect our relationships to be frictionless, but life doesn't work like that. And deep nourishing relationships are not frictionless. Humans are friction creators. And what happens is when you have this unrealistic expectation that relationships should always be easy. I think you isolate yourself. We all, as humans, we crave this social proof that we matter and we can only get that social proof from other people. So I do think to the extent that tech makes us think life should be frictionless and isolates us, that is how our mattering erodes. One of the things I love about your book, Jennifer, are the stories from the individual people. And I know you're a journalist, so you are quite literally a master and a pro at collecting stories, but I am really curious what your research process was like. How did you find all these people? It is a long and exhaustive research process. So for this book, I conducted an international survey of thousands of people and collected stories, collected moments when they felt like they didn't matter moments when they felt like they did. And then what I started doing was calling researchers who have been studying mattering since the eighties and getting ingredients and then trying to find. So for example, uh, the start of one chapter are firefighters. Cause I was thinking to myself, who are the people who have the most purposeful jobs, right? It's gotta be first responders, firefighters. They literally risk their lives to save other people. And then I started researching about firefighters and saw that they were burning out, that they were leaving. Retention was becoming an issue. They were dying by suicide more than they were on the job. And so then I started, as I did with my first book, going in search of who are the people who are trying to solve for this. And I found, I threw maybe 20 phone calls, I found a fire department in North Charleston, South Carolina with a firefighter who was doing something about the disengagement that's being seen nationally. So I don't know if you know this, but firefighters are often the first to arrive at the scene of a medical emergency or a car accident so that they don't just fight fires. And then after they stabilize the person or pull them out of a burning car, EMS takes over and brings the person to the hospital. The firefighters never find out what happened next. Did their actions make a difference? So time after time, doing these heroic efforts and never knowing if it made an impact was causing them to feel disengaged. They didn't know if they mattered. And so this fire chief created a system to change that. He tracked the outcomes of rescues so firefighters could know when their actions had saved a life or ease someone's suffering because he knew that doing meaningful and purposeful work wasn't enough. You need to know your work makes a difference. You need to know you matter. And that example, while most of us, most of my readers are not going to be first responders or firefighters, we can learn from that story. We can learn that if you are a caregiver doing deeply purposeful work, raising your children or caring for an elderly family member, but you feel disconnected from your impact. If you don't know that you are making a difference, you can burn out. And so there are ways we can, the way I put it in the book is connect to our own impact. So we don't even need to rely on a boss to create a system. We can create these systems for ourselves. One woman I interviewed who works as a consultant has an impact file on her Google Docs where she saves thank you notes, thank you texts. When her work goes in the newspaper, she will cut it out and frame it like a kind of trophy wall. So she is mindful about her impact. And so whenever she is feeling burnt out or feeling like my efforts aren't making a difference, she goes back to that impact file. We can all do that in our lives. We can all create these simple impact files. And I've started doing it. Someone sent me flowers and wrote the most beautiful note. That's part of my impact file. My children on Mother's Day write me these beautiful cards. Those are in my impact files. So whenever I'm feeling like what I am doing is not enough, I connect with my impact. And we can do that. And we can do that for each other. I mean, that's the other thing, right? We can do it for ourselves, but we can also do it for each other. a simple text saying, if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have had the courage to go out for that big job. Thank you for believing in me when I couldn't even believe in myself, right? We can close the loop. Somebody gives you a great piece of advice. We can circle back and say, I took that advice and guess what? It worked. Thank you so much. We are going through life because we have so many demands on our time. We are enduring so much input and so much output demanded of us that many of us are going through life on a kind of autopilot. And that can really disconnect us from the impact that we have on the world around us. So what mattering does, when you really start to understand mattering, is it forces you to be more awake in how you go through life, to be more mindful. it's really a wonderful way to go through life, to look for mattering and to unlock the mattering in the people around you. We all have this human need that must be met and it is going under met. Yes. So if you can be the person to do that too, you know, I've started this challenge for myself and this is sort of, I wouldn't even call it my new year's resolution. It's kind of my life resolution is to imagine everyone I meet, my family, strangers I meet on the street, my colleagues wearing a sign around their necks saying, tell me, do I matter? We can answer that with eye contact, smiling, providing warmth, telling people why they make a difference. The question you just shared is very similar to a big question you ask these people that you interview in the book, which is, do you feel like you matter? What was one of the most surprising answers you received? I mean, what was surprising was overwhelmingly how many people felt like they didn't matter anymore. It's so sad. And what I realized is many of those people were going through painful life transitions. So if they were parents, you know, now facing an empty nest or people relocating or changing jobs or getting fired or breaking up with somebody that they love or grieving the death of a loved one. These are all moments. These transitions can shake our sense of mattering to its core. What I wish I had known when I was in my twenties and thirties was how life transitions can rattle you. We tend to really personalize the experiences that we have in our life. So I'm thinking about when I was in my twenties, uh, graduating college and moving to New York and leaving behind, you know, my very close friendships, leaving behind a campus where I really felt like I mattered to come to New York, which I loved, but at the time, really my sense of mattering, I was new to my job. I certainly wasn't adding value because I was barely figuring out how to do my work. Um, I didn't know my neighbors. They didn't really want to know me. Um, and I felt really lonely and I used to personalize it. I used to think something must be wrong with me. And what I wish I had known was that it's not personal, that transitions, this is what they do. They disrupt your sense of mattering and they force you to find a new way to matter again. I'll tell you one of the things that I did, which was really helpful to me and what the research bears out is that when you are going through a painful life transition, the first step is to realize that you are not alone, that others have gone through these painful life transitions and come out the other side. So if you are going through one of these, you can, what I did in my 20s, and I didn't know I was doing this, I would go every Saturday morning to the Barnes and Noble near my house. And I would spend three hours reading nonfiction books, reading magazines. I almost treated it like a library, which is not very nice. But I actually did the very same thing when I moved to LA, right? Like it's not great. But I would sit there and I would just read other people's stories, read how, so I would look for role models and research finds that role models, when you are going through a hard transition, that is a great way of figuring out one that you're not alone and two other, how other people strategically have come out the other side. The other thing you can do is to harness the power of invitation. So there was a woman that I interviewed in my book who was going through a painful divorce. And she was talking about how her couple friends stopped inviting her to dinner because she was like a fifth wheel. And so she was saying this to her therapist and her therapist said, well, then you start hosting dinner parties and inviting them. So if you are going through a transition, if your sense of mattering has taken a hit, harness the power of invitation, either issuing an invitation or making a point to accept invitations, even when your life does not feel like it in order There research that I love called the beautiful mess effect It shows that we tend to have this false belief that we need to get our lives in order and kind of look perfect from the outside to be worthy of support, to be worthy of inviting people into our lives. But it's actually the messiness of our lives that signal warmth and authenticity. And it's what brings people closer to us. In my mind, when I think about the beautiful mess effect, I think about if you've ever tried to put a sticky, like a little light sticker on a lacquered surface, it will stick, but it will slide off because there's nothing to grip. So if you think about your life and if you are presenting yourself as perfect, there's nothing for people to hold onto. There's nothing sticky there. So it's actually in the grittiness of our lives. It's the messiness of our lives. I'm not saying reveal all your mess, but pockets of your messiness. Invite people in. Invite them in to be a support for you to help you through it. Before we go to break, I want to ask what you've bookmarked this week. It can be a fun quote, something you've sent a girlfriend, a book that is on your TBR list. What have you bookmarked this week, Jennifer? So I have a few books on my to-be-read list, but one of them is Andrew Ross Sorkin's 1929, which is a nonfiction book talking about the crash of 1929. And I will tell you, it is a great read. I'm excited about that. I actually put that on my TBR list too for the holiday season. It's good. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth. Until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Anna Navarro, and on my new podcast, Bleep with Anna Navarro, I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world. Because I know deep down inside right now, we are all cursing and asking what the bleep is going on. I'm talking to people like Julie K. Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. These victims have been let down time and time again for decades and decades and decades by local law enforcement, by federal law enforcement, by administration after administration. The Justice Department, through I think we counted four presidential administrations, failed these victims. Listen to Bleep with Ana Navarro as part of the My Cultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Segregation in the day, integration at night. When segregation was the law, one mysterious Black club owner had his own rules. We didn't worry about what went on outside. It was like stepping on another world. Inside Charlie's place, black and white people danced together. But not everyone was happy about it. You saw the KKK? Yeah, they would have dressed up in their uniform. The KKK set out to raid Charlie, take him away from here. Charlie was an example of power. They had to crush him. From Atlas Obscura, Rococo Punch, and Visit Myrtle Beach comes Charlie's place. A story that was nearly lost to time. Until now. Listen to Charlie's Place on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, it's Emily Simpson and Shane Simpson from the Legally Brunette podcast. Each week we're bringing you true crime through a legal lens. Whether you want all the facts on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie or you still need to wrap your head around the ditty verdict, we're breaking it all down step by step. And we're not just lawyers, we're also husband and wife. It makes for some pretty entertaining episodes. Listen to Legally Brunette on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, I want to get into how we can matter, not just to ourselves, but how we feel like we matter in the world and matter to other people. Can we kind of go section by section? How do we create a house and a family where we feel like we matter? Yeah. So I would say as a parent, or even if you don't have children, it's having people in your life, in your immediate circle that prioritize you and you prioritize them. Mattering is the sense, particularly in close relationships, that you matter more than, that you matter more than my phone. You matter more than my work email. You matter. So you don't have to prioritize them every minute of every day, but it is noticing and tuning into them and noticing when they need that mattering feeling, tuning in and delivering it. Wonderful. And that's across the board, whether that's at home or you're saying that is for home and then work is something separate. I would say one of the things as a parent, what I've come to realize in researching on mattering is that parents play a very important role in sending our children the message that they matter no matter what. So sending the signal to our kids that they are not their successes, they are not their failures, that their mattering is fully there no matter what. So a mother that I interviewed for the book, when her children would maybe get rejected by a friend or wouldn't make the A-team or would bomb a test and would feel like they didn't matter, that their worth was somehow less because they didn't perform, she would reach into her wallet and she would grab a bill. She would say to her kids, do you want this money? How much is it worth? And they would say, it's worth $20. Yes, I'd love it. And she'd say, okay, hang on a minute. She would wrinkle it up. She would dunk it in a glass of water, dirty it with her shoe. And then she would hold up a soggy, dirty, wrinkled bill. and she would say, how much is it worth now? Do you still want this money? Like this bill, your worth doesn't change whether you've been knocked down, rejected, whether you feel crumpled up or soggy inside. Your worth is your worth no matter what. I love that anecdote. Right? That is a message that we could give to our friends, to our spouses, to our children. You are worthy no matter what. Jennifer, I'm taking that one with me. That's so good. One of my favorite chapters in your book was about corner men. And actually, I was going to explain them, but why don't, can you explain what a corner man is? Sure. So a corner man, I'm not a big boxing fan, but a corner man is the person in the corner that supports a boxer through their training, through the tournament, through the match. They are able to see blind spots. They are able to deliver tough love. They are there in the corner experiencing that fight right along with the boxer. And so what I write about is how important it is not just to invite corner men into our life to invest in us, but to be a corner man for other people. That's something that we are wired to want to invest, to want to create these really strong relationships with other people. But sometimes things like envy or competition can get in the way of being a corner man. If you are someone who may be experiencing a lot of envy, you don't have to judge yourself for being envious. You don't have to judge yourself. We all evolved to feel envy for healthy, adaptive reasons. You don't have to judge yourself, but you have to hold yourself accountable for how you act on that envy. So when those feelings happen, you can either take the malicious envy route, which is cutting somebody down or gossiping about someone being a mean girl so you feel better by comparison. Or you can take the benign healthy route, which is looking at them as a source of inspiration. You could go even a step further and be a corner man. Look at them, say to them, I am so impressed with what you have done. I would love to help you take it even further. That is an idea that is often beaten out of us in our zero sum culture, but that's not how we are wired. We are wired to support one another. We are wired to want to be there to hold each other up. So I am here to say to you, be counter-cultural. Don't listen to a society that tells you it's a zero sum game, that somebody else's win is your loss. It is not true. There is enough joy. There is enough accomplishment and success to go around. So I found my, and this is a personal thing, but my only issue ever in friendship since I was young was envy. And I've, I've felt that you really can't be friends with someone that has any sort of envy for you or your life or anything. I always hear Oprah talk about this. I do too. You know, like what's the, what is the difference between that sort of envy and not wanting a corner man who has that versus somebody who's more benign? So what I will say is that if there are people in your life who are really struggling with the malicious kind of envy, who maybe don't want the best for you, I think the way to think about them is with compassion. All humans want to do well. All humans want to be good people. We are wired to want to be good people. So if you have someone in your life who is really struggling with envy, have compassion for them. Realize that they don't have the tools to cope with their envy in healthy ways. You don't need to let them close into your life. You can have them at a distance. I think it would be very hard to be friends with someone who you thought didn't want the best for you. So I don't think you need to necessarily cut them out of your life, but they cannot be a corner man. A corner man is somebody who believes in you and wants everything for you. We know what investment does to us. We know how it fills us up and helps us reach for higher goals and makes us feel good. But actually investing in other people allows for what researchers call ego extension, meaning that your ego as a person, if you're a corner man, your ego extends to include the successes of the people you support. Yeah. I love that. I tell my kids this all the time. Literally 90% of the joy in my life is the joy I get from my friends and their successes and their joys. This is an untapped joy fountain that is just waiting for you. What a thrill to be able to enjoy the joy and the success of your friends. It just makes your life better. I totally agree. And if you're comfortable, I do want to name one of your corner men because I think it's so fun. Your besties with Ina Garten, who you've called her one of the fairy godmothers of your newest book. And a quote from her is actually on the front cover. I need to ask you what the best meal is that you've ever shared with her. she's amazing I will tell you that I am the not as lucky as Jeffrey but she will often call me over because she's testing recipes and I know isn't that amazing that's amazing and I will try her I mean even her she's such a uh really a scientist I mean she can taste things that I can't I mean everything she makes is delicious. Her skillet chicken is amazing. It is so good. So that is sort of a comfort food for me, but everything she makes is delicious. There's nothing I've ever had that Ina has made that hasn't been amazing. Has she given you advice? Have you given her advice? Oh my gosh She gives me so much great advice It funny because one of the pieces of advice she gave me was a piece of advice she got from Liza Minnelli which is the title of her memoir which is to be ready when the luck happens That success is about hard work It's also about luck. A lot of it is out of your control, but to set yourself up so that you are ready when your idea, when your business, whatever it is, hits, be ready for the luck to happen. Love that. There's another chapter of your book that specifically focuses on mattering at work, which we've touched on a little bit. I'm really curious what the research says. How can bosses and managers and team leaders bring a sense of mattering to the workplace? Yes. And it's so important that they do. I mean, when you think about we spend a third of our lives in the workplace, if we don't feel like we matter at work, it makes it so much harder to feel like we matter overall. So I have this framework that I've developed called SED. It's the SED framework, S-A-I-D, which stands for the four major ingredients of mattering. Significance, appreciation, invested in, depended on. So all of those elements are how you make your colleagues feel like they matter. Significant. It's not about throwing them a party. It's in the moments. It is remembering small details about them. If their mother is having surgery, marking it in your calendar and going back to it a week later and saying, how'd your mom do with the surgery? So significance is the idea that I play a significant role in your mind, that I am prioritized in your mind. Just these little moments. Appreciated is the difference between saying to a colleague who is always great at organizing happy hours. You might say one way of appreciating your colleague would be to say, thank you for always hosting these cocktail hours. They're so fun. But that's not a way to feed the sense of mattering. A better way to feed that is to say to your colleague, thank you for being the kind of colleague who knows what it takes to build community. It's because of you that we are so close as a department. Wow. So something so specific. Specific about the doer. So don't just thank someone for the deed, for organizing, thank them for being the doer, the person who gets people together, who builds community. So nice. Invested in, we talked about, it's letting people know that their goals matter to you. It is providing feedback in a way that makes people believe you are invested in them. Even your negative feedback, positioning it as, I believe in you. I know you can do this. Trusting them to deliver. And then the last thing is depending on them, relying on them. The idea that the office wouldn't be the same without them. So many people feel invisible, interchangeable. Now AI is coming on the scene. Is that going to make us replaceable? Let people know that you depend on them, you rely on them, and that you appreciate that you can depend on them, that they always come through for you. One of the phrases that I'm really going to take with me from your book is, um, mattering architect. And it combines a few things. One is showing up physically to a third space. Um, I think about showing up all the time. I think we're in a lack in our culture and I'm not, I'm not sure why maybe it is mattering and you could probably shed some light on that, but the way you define a mattering architect also touches on how we show up and it's about building out and protecting emotional space, how can we signal to other people that we're wanting to have these deep connections and deeper conversations? So that is such a great question. And what I have found is it takes real intentionality that you don't necessarily come out to someone and say, I want to go deeper with you. Right. Instead, you create the conditions where that deepness can take hold. So a book group, right? That is a place where people gather regularly. You prioritize each other to show up. So it's requiring showing up, being dependable, and then creating the conditions for those conversations to unwind. I belong to a group where once a month, we read an article, like some in-depth article, and we sit in each other's kitchens over lunch, and we talk about the article, but then it inevitably spills out into life, what it is to be in the messy middle, what it's like to juggle workplace demands with raising children. And so it's creating the scaffolding for those relationships to unfold. So it takes intention, deliberate time, carving it out in your calendar to let someone know they matter to you. You are carving out the time that says you are a priority to me. So beautiful. I love that you do that. What a fun idea. Who picks the article? It wasn't my idea. And what was so interesting about this is that it's friends of friends. So it's not even like a group of, of close friends and whoever's hosting picks the article. And then we sit and, and I don't cook. So I order in, but some people cook a delicious meal and there's something so intimate about sitting in each other's kitchens. Yeah. There's something really old fashioned and fabulous about it. And the, and the, and the food and the article create that kind of scaffolding. I love the ritual of it. It's very cool. we're coming to the end of the interview and I want to actually start with the opening of your book because there's a quote that hit me so hard it's so beautiful it's a Mary Oliver quote and she writes I don't want to end up having simply visited this world how does that quote connect to mattering so what I've come to believe is as a human being on this earth, we have a responsibility to matter, to matter to the people around us, to add positive value. And so that quote to me is a reminder that we are not bystanders. We are not people just going through the motions. We have a social responsibility to matter here. And so that to me, I mean, some people say they just want to be happy. I want more than just to be happy. I want to know that what I do is making a difference. I want to know that the people around me feel valued. I want to surround myself with people who make me feel like I matter. And so to me, that mattering has become the North star. And I think people are often searching for happiness, searching for happiness in their New Year's resolutions. If only I lost the 10 pounds or if only I did this. And I want you to, If you are in that moment, I want you to think that is you already matter. You already matter. And even if you feel like you don't matter, you are one action and one decision away from mattering again. And that is sending a text to someone, telling them if it wasn't for them. It's walking out your front door and thanking the person at the pharmacy who always greets you with a smile and provide such warmth and telling them my days have been hard, but I will tell you, you are such a positive light in this world. We have a responsibility to matter to the world, to our legacy, to future generations, to this earth. We have a responsibility to matter and we have agency. We can matter in this world. Okay. We're going to do something called speed read, which is I'm going to put 60 seconds on the clock and see how many rapid fire literary questions we can get through. Are you ready? Let's do it. Okay. Three, two, one. What is a self-help book trope that you would ban forever? Self-optimization, self-optimizing your time, who you are. I'm so tired of the self-help books. We need to be in relationship with each other. That's how we matter. So agree. Which one would you defend with your life? any book that encourages relationships and deeper connection to help protect our social health, which we don't talk enough about. What's a book that you wish you had written? Oh my gosh, so many books. Actually, Choosing Civility is a book I wish I'd written. It's a tiny, tiny book by a professor, PM, I don't know how to say his last name, Fiorni, and just little rules of civility in everyday life. What's a book that you wish you could read again for the first time? Crime and Punishment. That was the book that made me understand what psychology was and made me want to write about what I write about today. I'm putting that on my TBR list. Thank you. Who is your desert island author? Who are you reading for the rest of your life? Maybe my very good friend, Chris Pavoni, who writes really engaging, really smart thrillers. You walk into a bookstore, you have 10 minutes. Where are you headed first? General nonfiction, new release, 100%. What's a book that you gift most often? Oh, I give so many different books. Recently, The Good Life, which is about a study done at Harvard, the longest study ever conducted of human beings, The Good Life. And lastly, what would your memoir be called? Too Much, the part two from Never Enough to Too Much. I don't know. No, Jennifer, you matter. You're not too much. Okay, okay, mattering. It would be about mattering. Yeah. Thank you so much. I'm going to be thinking about what you shared today for a really long time. I so appreciate it. Thank you for this great conversation. If you want a little bit more from us, come hang with us on socials. We're at Reese's Book Club on Instagram, serving up books, vibes, and behind the scenes magic. and I'm Danielle Robay, R-O-B-A-Y. Come say hi and DM me. And if you want to go 90s on us, you can call us, okay? So our phone line is open. So call us now at 501-291-3379. That's 501-291-3379. Share your literary hot takes, your book recommendations, ooh, please share those, and questions about the monthly pick. Or just let us know what you think about the episode you just heard. And who knows, you might just hear yourself in our next episode. So don't be shy, give us a ring. And of course, make sure to follow Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your shows. Until then, see you in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts. It's executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me, Danielle Robay. Production is by ACAST Creative Studios. Our producers are Maddie Foley, Brittany Martinez, and Sarah Schleid. Our production assistant is Avery Loftus. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter are the executive producers for ACAST Creative Studios. Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for Hello Sunshine. Olga Kaminoa, Sarah Kernerman, Kristen Perla, and Ashley Rappaport are associate producers for Reese's Book Club. Ali Perry and Lauren Hansen are the executive producers for iHeart Podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, it's Emily Simpson and Shane Simpson from the Legally Brunette podcast. Each week we're bringing you true crime through a legal lens. Whether you want all the facts on the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, or you still need to wrap your head around the ditty verdict, we're breaking it all down step by step. And we're not just lawyers, we're also husband and wife. It makes for some pretty entertaining episodes. Listen to Legally Brunette on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This Women's History Month, the podcast Keep It Positive, sweetie, celebrates the power of women choosing healing, purpose, and faith, even when life gets messy. Love is not a destination. You have to work on it every day. Keep It Positive, sweetie, creates space for honest conversations on self-worth, love, growth, and navigating life with grace and grit, led by women who uplift, inspire, and tell the truth out loud. I have several conversations with God, and I know why it took 20 years. To hear this and more, listen to Keep It Positive, Sweetie, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Almost 30 years together, four kids, and some of reality TV's most unforgettable moments, we're taking you behind the scenes in our podcast Between Us. With me, Heather Dubrow. And me, Terry Dubrow. The unfiltered, behind-closed-doors conversations you wish you could eavesdrop on. And plenty of, did they just say that moments? But what's the latest rumor? I'm gay, right? First of all, if I were gay, I would be gay. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Between Us, and listen now. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.