The After Show: The Yogurt Shop Murders

Is this on? Season 3 of Proof, Murder at the Bike Shop, is available now, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm scared to be sitting here in this damn chair talking about this shit. This is a guy confessing a murder to her, and she has no idea what day it happened. Everything I tell you is the truth. I hope I don't bring a ton of shit down on me. Listen to Season 3 of Proof now, wherever you get your podcasts. There was evidence in the house, and they would not listen to me. It's not me. I didn't do it. Welcome to 2020 The After Show. I'm Debra Roberts and as always it is really a pleasure to have you here with us as we take a deep look at a 2020 episode that we have covered. As you all know we always take a deeper dive into some of those details that you learned about on a Friday night. Well our most recent episode called Yogurt Shop Murders is a notably chilling story that just made headlines for really more than 30 years. It goes back to December 6th, 1991, when 14 girls were brutally murdered. I mean, just in a way that it's just almost hard to describe at a yogurt shop in Austin, Texas. The victims were sisters, Sarah and Jennifer Harbison, who were 17 and 15 at the time, Eliza Thomas, a friend of theirs, who was 17, and Amy Ayers, who was only 13 years old when she was murdered. These girls were found bound, sexually assaulted, and shot. It was just something that was beyond imagination. And then afterwards, the shop was set on fire, obviously, in an attempt to cover the grisly crime, to cover up all the evidence. And the case just left the community heartbroken. And as you might imagine, a police force just struggling to try to solve this case. Along the years, as they began to investigate, and I say years because this case did take years to solved, there were false confessions, there were dead ends. And then thanks to a team that just would not give up, ultimately a killer was identified, but it was 34 years later. Well, if you saw our 2020 episode, you know, our story centered around exclusively, by the way, an interview with Mindy Montford, who is a former assistant Texas attorney general who really helped crack this case. Mindy is here with us now to share some details about this case. Mindy, It is such a pleasure to have you. Thank you, Debra. I'm very happy to be here, and thank you for the coverage you've given this case. Oh, my goodness, of course. I mean, it's one of those that people have been talking about for a long time. I wish you and I could be together in person, but I know you're working on lots of things out there in Texas. But let's just start off with the case to begin with, because you worked tirelessly on this, along with other investigators, of course. But when you came into the case, people had essentially kind of given up on it being solved, really. and you wanted to just jump right into this because it kind of resonated with you. Why was it that this case touched something in you just off the start? Well, I actually have been in Austin, Texas since 1976 and grew up in that neighborhood. I've been to the North Cross Mall. I've been to the yogurt shop. That is a neighborhood that it was a community. And when this happened, I remember I was in college and seeing the news coverage of my neighborhood, you know, this horrific crime. I mean, back then, too, if you recall, we would walk everywhere as a kid, you didn't even have a phone, your parents trusted you on a bike for hours. So that was the environment we grew up in. And then to just fast forward being in college, seeing this on TV unfolding in my community, it was horrible. Yeah. Then over the years, just following the case and going through law school, then I became a prosecutor. But watching what these families went through through the justice system repeatedly and just being victimized over and over again by the system, I just, it really broke my heart for them. And I'd always had an interest in the case. Yeah. And when you think about it, these girls were just a little bit younger than you were because you're right there in college thinking about, you know, somebody who could be your age. You touched on something when you talked about those innocent times of kids, you know, just walking around and riding their bikes. And in this case, just hanging out at a yogurt shop, right? Two of the girls worked there. In our episode, somebody described this as the day that Austin lost its innocence. And you could see that that was what happened. I mean, this tragedy really impacted the community in a huge way. I don't think we've ever been the same since. It just was when you talk to anybody in Austin, Texas, and if you say, you know, like years ago, I would say, oh, I'm a prosecutor. Oh, have you ever heard of the yogurt shop murders? I mean, It was just everybody knew about this case. And we were a small community back then, not so much today, but it really did change. It changed us. It just did not make sense. It just changed our community. It really did. I can imagine. And I've covered so many of these stories, and we often do, when, you know, they're in a fairly small town. And Austin, as you said, is sort of bustling now. But, you know, people really did feel very safe and sort of protected. And so when this kind of thing happens, it shakes you. Let's talk about those four girls, Sarah, Jennifer, Eliza, and Amy. As I said, doing something so innocent. A couple of the girls worked at the yoga shop. They're all just there kind of hanging out, and their lives were viciously cut short. And I think in some ways that is what haunted this community more than anything else. I mean, any horrible crime is a horrible crime. But in this case, young, I mean, basically babies. Babies, people who could be your next-door neighbors, your sisters, your daughters, your friends. And the fact that it was something like you mentioned, so innocent. I mean, what's more innocent than having an extra job and hanging out with your friends waiting for closing, you know, to go have a sleepover from the yogurt shop of all places. And, you know, it's just I think you're right. I think the fact that it was a yogurt shop, their ages, the fact that there were multiple victims, that the way they were murdered, it just again, this just didn't happen in Austin, Texas. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was in the 90s. So you come along later on, 2017, you joined this case. And as you said, we can talk more later about what you brought to the case from your expertise. But talk to me a little bit about when you joined the case and what you learned from the families. Because they had been through the ringer over more than two decades at that point, almost three decades. And no answers really. I mean, a lot of twists and turns, which we'll get to. But what would the families like for you to meet at that time? I still remember that vividly that day. And I think I even called my my father actually had been a prosecutor back in the 70s. And I remember calling him and telling him this had been one of the best days of my career, that the fact that I've met these families who I've just followed throughout the years and been, you know, had my heart broke for them. And then to think that I'd go from a college room watching this news coverage to actually working on the case, you know, in 2017, that was just full circle for me. I was just so honored to be included in the meeting. And then, you know, as the meeting progressed, the district attorney, Margaret Moore at the time said, look, we're going to, not only are we going to keep investigating this case and, and fight till the end and try to get you answers, but I'm going to assign my first assistant, Mindy Monford to, to lead the team. And that, you know, so that was just, I didn't even see that coming, by the way. She didn't tell me that before the meeting. Otherwise you might've been more nervous than you were probably to begin with. Yeah, well, you were held up as somebody who was going to take a fresh look at the case. But it's just really astounding to me. There were false confessions, which implicated four young men. And let's talk about them. Robert Springsteen, Forrest Welburn, Michael Scott, and Maurice Pierce. And various ones had been arrested and either convicted, but then the cases had been dismissed. Tell us a little bit about how police had to deal with all of that over the years. I know, Debra, we may need like five episodes to do that. I tell you what, this case, I mean, a lot of cases have a crazy appellate system and legal history, but this one really takes the cake because not only did you, you started out, you had false confessions, not just from the individuals who ended up getting charged ultimately, but we had confessions from, I mean, two people from Mexico that recanted, you know, the details didn't add up. Then you had all these people from the mall, you know, the, this mall crowd, this high school group, and they were all giving, you know, incriminating statements and just, and then later would, you know, recant them, not pass a polygraph and recant and say, oh, I just did it. Cause I had a, he made me mad, he hit on my girlfriend. Right. You know, I mean, it just went on and on. And when you read the police report, it is, it is so hard to read because it just keeps going in circles. I mean, there's just so many twists and turns. But then, yes, you ultimately end up with Maurice Pierce actually flashing his .22 gun around the mall. And that's the same caliber. One of the guns that was used in the yogurt shop was .22. They were each shot with a .22. And then Amy had a second shot with a .380. But he was bragging about that and making comments. And so people then start calling the police and, you know, giving tips to this. And so then Maurice is interviewed and then he implicates the other three. Right. And that's what sort of turned law enforcement on initially. But when Maurice Pierce gives his statement originally, one of the detectives comes in and reviews it and says, no, this just does not add up. You know, and by the way, the gun, they tested the gun and it was inconclusive. So they basically let Maurice Pierce go. And in the report initially, it says is cleared as a suspect. Yeah. And then, of course, years later. Years later, they would come back. They would come back and look at them, and we talk about that in the piece, how police would circle back around to this crowd. They were making no progress, no arrest. What's a little frightening about this, though, is that two people were convicted, and one of them could have been put to death because of this. Let talk about that because Robert Springsteen was actually eventually tried and sentenced to death Michael Scott was sentenced to life in prison And everybody seemed to think the case was solved I mean they were convicted and the family even sort of, I guess, finally breathed a sigh of relief, right? Yes. Yes. I think that's very fair to say they were convinced that there were these two confessions that were taken separately, separate cities by different investigators. And the statement seemed to have incriminating information that was consistent in both of those statements. And so ultimately, the judge found that those were admissible in court. And then you had two separate juries review those confessions, spend hours on those confessions, and then deliberate. And they found them both guilty in separate juries. Yeah. So that goes on. And everybody thinks that this case has been solved. And sadly, you know, maybe that's the end of it. So the Texas appeals court then overturns both Scott and Springsteen's convictions because of some technicalities about cross-examining witnesses. And at that point, of course, we didn't have modern DNA like we do right now, but the charges ultimately against all of these folks would be dismissed. You know, one man could have been put to death and clearly the wrong people were behind bars. That was also difficult for the family too. We talk about in our piece in 2020, you know, having thought that this case was put to rest and now they don't know what to believe. No, that's exactly right. And I think if you talk to the families today, they'll even tell you with this new information, they don't quite know if they should believe it because they believe this other information for so long. But I think they felt that with two different juries returning verdicts of guilty, that they had the right guys. I mean, I believe that they did believe that they had the right people. But the court did say that it was not, but these were not the right people. Well, actually, you know, it's even more traumatic for the families because the first thing that happened was the Supreme Court, actually, the United States Supreme Court changed its ruling saying that you had to be a certain age before you'd be eligible for death row. And that's why Springsteen's was commuted to life. So that was the first thing that happened where the families, you know, had to deal with him getting commuted to life. And then the second thing that happened was another Supreme Court hearing, which was talking about the confessions themselves. And so any trial in America that had taken place where you put a co-defendant's confession against the other co-defendant without putting the co-defendant on the stand, that was remanded to have a new trial. And that's what happened here. So, again, it's chipping away. Bit by bit, they just kept getting this more bad news to the families, of course. They're sitting there thinking, you know, where's the justice in this? Now we have to go through another set of trials. and it was at that point that the prosecution decided we didn't have DNA back when we had the first trials. Maybe with new technology, as you mentioned, we might be able to get something. Yeah. So ultimately, all of these folks were dismissed and there was just recently a hearing that formally cleared all of their names. What was your reaction? I think, you know, I've spent so much time on this case now and I know the evidence against Robert Brashears. And I do not find any evidence at this point that Robert Brashears had any contact with the original individuals who were charged. And so therefore, I felt it was the right thing to do. And Brashears is a name that's going to factor later on. We'll talk a little bit, but I want to hear from you because I'm sure our listeners and viewers out there will want to know when you think about false confessions, why would anybody confess? And why would anybody even try to implicate themselves into a heinous crime, which you could wind up going to prison for life or possibly, you know, being put to death. I mean, that is something that nobody can really understand. I still can't understand it, Deborah. I that is the one thing that I it just causes me pause all the time because I'm thinking, why would you implicate yourself? Why would you do this? But we we know it happens because now we do have DNA and we've seen so many cases that have been cleared and individuals have been exonerated, thank God for DNA, or because other people come forward and provide new evidence, or maybe someone confesses a jailhouse confession, but we know it happens. Yeah. And in this case, too, when we talk about the individuals here, there was a lot of interrogation and all of that. You call it the Nostradamus effect? I can't take credit for that, but I have been struggling with this idea of false confessions. And I ended up talking to Vern Pearson, who is an elected district attorney out in California. And he's actually become quite the expert on false confessions. And he goes and he speaks at different trainings for prosecutors and detectives so that they can see how this can happen. And he actually is the one who he said it can happen for a lot of reasons. But one of the things is what he calls the Nostradamus effect. You know, Nostradamus made thousands of predictions. and if you just put one set of facts into one of those, you know, you're going to get it right. You're bound to find something that's going to be true. Exactly. That's going to be, or, you know, corroborate your evidence. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. You have a 50-50 shot that it was, you know, you know, a gun versus a knife, right? I mean, so, you know, it's things like that. Yeah. He calls the Nostradamus effect. And it does happen too. You're absolutely right. We've heard about that over the years. Well, you hit on something that I want to talk about more, DNA, which played a pivotal part in solving this case after 30 years. So, Mindy, don't go anywhere because I want to talk more about that. One of the victims, they were actually able to extract some DNA from and then actually using modern technology make a big difference in this case. So we're going to talk about that. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by Quince. 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For a limited time, our listeners can get more than 60% off a pair of Vibes wireless headphones. Just go to abcsecretsavings.com slash 2020. Again, that's abcsecretsavings.com slash 2020. abcsecretsavings.com slash 2020. Welcome back to 2020 The After Show. I'm talking with Mindy Montfort, who is a former cold case prosecutor. She helped solve a case that seemed to be unsolvable in Austin, Texas over the years. It was called Yogurt Shop Murders for young girls who were just brutally murdered. And Mindy, it's just so great to talk to you about this because many of the cases that we talk about turn on DNA. And even when they're old cases, and people are often surprised by that, because when you apply modern technology, but that made such a big difference in this case, it everything evolved over the years. And the family, of course, is in limbo or the families because we're talking two sisters and then two other girls. So three sets of families here. And you got to know the families really well over time. You know, they you had to gain their trust. You're working to solve these murders. Give me a sense of what that was like for you. You grew up knowing about this case and now you're talking and working with the families. What was that like for you and for them as you all made this connection? Well, it was surreal coming full circle as someone who lived in the community, grew up in that community, in that neighborhood, and then to watch the footage in college and then find myself as a prosecutor later in life working on the case. It was an incredible opportunity. I was humbled to even be a part of it. And I instantly had a connection with the Ayers family. That's who we met with the first time I got involved in the case in 2017. Their daughter was the youngest one, 13 years old. Right. Amy Ayers. And I believe I'm not, I'm probably not overstating this. I believe we have talked, emailed, communicated, I would say on a weekly basis, maybe every other week since that meeting in 2017. I mean, even if it was just an email to check in, we've stayed in touch and stayed close. Yes. Yeah. You formed a real bond with these families and this family in particular. Well let talk about the cold case unit because that was what sort of turned this whole thing around Many states have started these cold case units Right But this one started and you had a lot to do with that Was it because of your memories and your connection to this case I think so. I'm going to say yes, because there were several reasons. One, we learned, we actually met with the Golden State Killer investigation team to sort of triage the yogurt shop murders at one point. And we learned about all the resources that were available outside of Austin, Texas. And we thought, if we didn't know about these experts in these private labs, how does Corpus Christi know? How does Lubbock know? Why isn't this more of a statewide resource? And so at some point, we came up with a pitch, and we thought that the Attorney General's office would be a really good place to have a unit because it has statewide jurisdiction. You have prosecutors in that office, appellate prosecutors in the office, and then criminal investigators. So what a better place than to have it, you know, in the AG's office. Yeah. And then to start connecting the dots with all of these different places. That's right. And to and to really be able to serve as a resource for the whole state and to be able to connect, like you said, experts, labs, different cities with each other with different cases that might be similar. And so we went and made this pitch along with the heirs. The heirs came to the meeting with the attorney general's office, myself, and then the sergeant of the Austin Police Department cold case unit at the time. And we did a PowerPoint. And I'll never forget, you know, at the very end, the heirs looked at this room full of suits and they said, look, this may not help our case, but if it helps one family, then it's worth it. So they were still hanging in there, if nothing else, just for the impact. So, of course, you're teaming up with others and you've got to deal with law enforcement when you're doing this. And about a year later, Detective Dan Jackson gets involved in the case. Talk a little bit about his work on the case and the two of you working together. Sure. That was a great moment. And I knew that Dan was going to be taking a look at this case from a different viewpoint. And he did know about the case. He also grew up here in Central Texas and he remembered it as a young boy. And, you know, I do want to say over the years, the Austin Police Department has had several dedicated detectives to this case, and they were amazing. And, you know, I can't say enough great things about the resources that they devoted. But as you know, with departments, people get promoted, change in and out. Right. So when Dan Jackson comes on, the heirs are very, very skeptical because as they put it, this is, you know, number 242 on the case. You know, when you look at all the different people who've worked from the police department on the, on the case and Dan basically told them, I'm, I'm going to work hard and I'm, I'm going to be the last detective on this case. And they're, and they're thinking, yeah, we've been there and done that and seen that. And I, you know, and understandably because they've had no answers and it is sort of remarkable that they would hang in there and keep trying to see change. You're bringing a fresh set of eyes, the two of you, and a lot of the stories that we've covered on 2020 turn on that. Somebody new who has come into office who suddenly sees something a little different, maybe looking at the same evidence everybody else has, but sees it differently. What struck you, too, when you began to look? Again, as you said, the DNA evidence was not compelling in terms of not having anybody to connect it to. So what evidence really struck you? Dan and I both knew when he came on board, I told him, you know, look, we've got this. And he knew. But it was, you know, this Y profile, which is a male, unknown male profile that was from the crime scene, a vaginal swab from Amy Ayers. And that was the one, by the way, that that was the reason when it didn't match to the original four suspects that the DA's office had to dismiss the case. You cannot take a case like that to trial when you have an unknown profile and expect a jury to come back with a reasonable doubt that you just can't do it. Right. That definitely gives them reasonable doubt. And so we knew before we could move forward on this case again, we had to figure out whose profile that was. And the problem with that, of course, is, you know, that's what we've been stuck. We've been stuck for years trying to figure that profile out. So I think when Dan came on board, we basically said, okay, number one, we both agree. We've got to figure out whose DNA that is. Whose DNA this is. Yeah. Whether it's a customer, an employee, a first responder, or a suspect, we've got to figure out whose DNA that is. The other thing we thought was we have focused on that for so long that why aren't we going back and looking at all the evidence and seeing, okay, now it's 2022, 2023. Maybe technology has changed enough that we could go back and retest some of those items. You looked at an old shell casing, and then there's something called the NIBIN system that you utilized in the case. That's right. The NIBIN system is basically it's like you hear CODIS for DNA, a database, a national database. NIBIN is for ballistics, so for shell casings and guns. And it's supposed to connect firearms to different crime scenes after they're uploaded by law enforcement. Okay, so you're looking at all of this and now you've, you know, you're sort of onto something that's a little bit more modern in terms of the way you can look at this evidence. And then in summer of 2025, you get a phone call that changes everything. A match all the way in South Carolina. Right. Well, we had two crazy phone calls. The first was when the Niben hit came back to an unsolved case in Kentucky. And at first we were thinking, OK, well, anybody could maybe steal a gun or sell a gun. This doesn't necessarily mean it's connected to yogurt shop. But when we read the police report from the Kentucky case, the Lexington, Kentucky case, it put chills in us because it literally involved a strip center, a business in a strip center. A woman had been shot in the head with a 380. She was naked from the waist down. And then they set the place on fire, which is exactly what had happened with the yogurt shop murders. I couldn't get on a plane to Lexington fast enough with the police. I was like, let's go tomorrow. You know, I've got, we've got to figure out more about this case. And so So that was our first, you know, aha, oh my gosh, the first phone call. Then that basically led Dan Jackson to say, well, wait a minute. You know, we have not done a national request for local crime labs to run our DNA, our YSTR, our male profile that was unknown. in 2019, we had asked for, for crime labs across the country to do what's called a manual keyboard search where they actually manually enter the DNA components and see if maybe it matches. Very time consuming. And a lot of labs don't have the time to stop and do it for you. So it's, it's really kind of a Hail Mary, but in 2019, we had done that and not had any results, but here we are with this Nibin lead now. And Dan thought, you know what, let's do it again. have another request. So that goes out and we get this hit to South Carolina and then we can't find out a name or anything about it for three weeks while legal figures out if they can release it to it. But meanwhile, you know, something is happening. Something is percolating here, which is so amazing when you think about it. It's all about trying and trying and trying again. And you just actually happened to hit pay dirt. Well, then ultimately you hear the name Robert Brashears. And you, you Google and you start looking and what are you learning about this guy? Because you talk about the one crime and now suddenly you're going to be looking at a lot of other crimes. It was, it was crazy. I mean, the craziest thing is when we were waiting for three weeks, I was told that it matched to a serial killer, um, in South Carolina. So you mentioned Google. That's what I was doing. I was Googling serial killers and nothing came up on Robert crush years. It was the strangest thing. So once we did get his name, we found out more about him. Our next question was, well, what was he doing in Texas? Does he have any Texas ties? And of course, that would be the next crazy moment in this case, when we found out two days after the yogurt shop murder, he was arrested in a stolen vehicle with a 380 trying to go into New Mexico. He was at the border from Texas and New Mexico and got stopped. And we knew, I mean, are you kidding? I mean, this has to, it has to be him. That was a moment for you. The aha moment. You really, you knew at that point you had the person. You know, his MO, once we were learning more about the crimes that they knew he had committed, and then to be in Texas two days after the yogurt shop, getting out of the state, and then to have a 380, you know, in his possession, it's going to be a real weird coincidence if it isn't him. Yeah. At that point, you knew you had your killer. You go and you share the news with the families actually in person because you want to tell them once you feel like you've got this crime solved. That had to be a real moment for all of you. It was, you know, those moments, those flashbacks that you remember and you'll remember forever. You know, one was the first meeting in 2017. and then of course it's where I was when we got the certain pieces of information about Brashears and then of course a career highlight going and finally delivering the news we had been, I mean it was surreal that we I couldn't believe we had the answer after all this time. I knew, you know Deborah, I knew we would find it because we had DNA and I always felt like one day technology would catch up and we'd figure it out. I just didn't know if I'd be alive But I knew that they would one day. I did. So you finally get a match. You are convinced you've got your killer and then devastating news in a way when it comes to sort of finding a day in court. Robert Brashears had died in 1999 in a standoff with police So you know you got your person but you don really have the person to be able to bring into court That had to be pretty devastating We knew that when we told the families that it was going to be a hit to them. You know, I do think, though, looking back on it, when we talked to Barbara and told her he was deceased, at first her reaction was, you know, oh, you know, dang it. But then she kind of came back and said, you know what? I don't think I could survive another trial. I don't think I could go through this again. So, you know, I think in a lot of these cold cases, sometimes we, I mean, a lot of times the perpetrator ends up being dead because the cases are so old. Because so much time has elapsed. That's right. Yeah. But a lot of times the families just want the answers, you know? In this case, you got not only an answer to that, but so many other things. Mindy, I want to continue talking about Brashears when we come back, because what you learned about him was absolutely mind-blowing about his past and also what his own daughter told us at 2020 about what it was like growing up the daughter of a serial killer. You're going to hear more about all of that, so don't go anywhere. ABC Wednesdays. The Emmy-winning comedy Scrubs is all new. This is a whole new chapter for me. No more sad sack. That's what I'm talking about. I want both of our sacks to be fun. You two idiots are perfect for each other. From executive producers of Ted Lasso and Shrinking. We were all a part of this victory. Now get those nachos out of the preemie warmer. Nachos! Feels like there's more applause for the nachos than my speech. The new season of Scrubs. Wednesdays, 8, 7 central on ABC and stream on Hulu. Welcome back to 2020 The After Show. I am talking with Mindy Montford, a former assistant Texas attorney general who was just pivotal in helping solve a cold case called the Yogurt Shop Murders. And it took the lives of four young girls, Sarah and Jennifer Harbison, Eliza Thomas and Amy Ayers. And Mindy says that she will never forget them or their parents. And Mindy, so much of what you did was skill. And then a lot of it, too, was sort of luck in the sense that you guys stayed on this case. You stayed on this case and DNA, modern DNA technology had changed so much. But once you began to learn that Robert Beshears had been in Texas, he had committed crimes very similar to what had happened in Austin before, you began to learn more. I mean, this man's life had taken him really all over the country in a way, and just the other crimes and murders that he had committed were just absolutely not only just heart-wrenching but mind-blowing, really. Right. He I've never had a case quite like this, actually, when so much devastation, so many different offenses, his victims were so young and, you know, he would target the youngest victim. We do know that from some of the survivors that we've we've talked to. So it does make what he what he did even more heinous. also the fact that he was so manipulative. He was not dumb at all. He was very smart. And for someone to evade authorities and stay out of jail as much as he did for all the crimes he did, it's pretty remarkable. Yeah, it is pretty remarkable. And that happens a lot. And of course, we've covered, sadly, stories of other serial killers. He had been in prison for a while and then was out of prison. And, you know, he had this sort of checkered past of all of these crimes, as you said. I think you even said when he wasn't in prison, he was murdering and raping women. Ultimately, the Kentucky Police Department announced that Brashears was responsible for a 1998 homicide fire that was so similar to the yogurt shop, as we talked about. His daughter spoke with us, and she said something which I've heard before. I actually interviewed the daughter of the BTK killer years ago, and it was just another chilling story. And for her to have no idea that her father was in any way remotely a criminal. And she said he seemed like a nice, normal guy. And so did Brashear's daughter said that she he was just kind of a typical normal, you know, father. How common is that? I mean, you as you said, you haven't experienced a lot of these intense cases like this, but the idea that they could just lead a fairly normal life, but yet have this other side to them that is just so volatile and vicious and heinous. What did you make of that? One of the I think one of the things we're learning more and more about serial killers. And when you start looking at all of them, that is how they were able to blend in so well with society and to, you know, oh, my wife left her purse in the car. Can I use your phone? Right. And you look so charming and normal. And they let their guard down. And he was able to just barge his way in and manipulate situations. And I can only imagine, you know, what he must have said in the yogurt shop to gain their trust, you know. And I just I know there's going to be other crimes out there. And that's what we're continuing to look at, because, as you said, I don't believe for a minute that when he was out in the free world and we don't have you know, we've got this big timeline, but there's gaps. And I don't believe for a minute that he just took breaks in his killing spree. So you've actually I think we're going to find more crimes. Yeah. In fact, you've actually actively sent out bulletins asking other law enforcement areas and communities to start looking around to see if there may be something that sort of fits his pattern, haven't you? We have. And we're going to probably send another one out in the next week or two with even more information and targeting certain areas we know he operated. Well, the big question many will ask, I mean, how a man like this can act alone, a person like this could do something so awful. and four young girls. And in other cases, there were other women, one after the other. Do you believe that he just did this and acted alone? Or do you think over time he might have had an accomplice anywhere? You know, that was one of the main questions that I had, and I still have. I mean, we're not going to know for sure until, you know, maybe we find a case where he did act with somebody. But everything we've seen up to date, he's been alone. The interesting thing, I think, when I was trying to figure out how he could, you know, tie up and do this to four different young girls at the same time, the Memphis case, the Memphis, Tennessee case, where he actually let them live, that involved four women. And he was able to sweet talk his way in. And then boom, he's holding a gun to them and gets them, you know, to tie themselves up. He pulls the phone cord out, ties another one up, and then asks basically who is the youngest here. And that's who he sexually assaults. So you can only imagine, but he was able to do that without anyone else there for those four girls. And I'm sure that must, when I read that report, I thought this is how the yogurt shop happened. Well, manipulation and manipulation in youth, as you said, and innocence, all of those things that were stolen from these girls. The families are so, so fortunate that they had you on their side. I have to tell you, you know, just tireless in the work that you did. And it's really pretty amazing, too, that you've managed to stay in touch with them and maybe sort of offer a little bit of solace to them in the sense that some of them at least have built a friendship with you. I think it's so important when we cover these stories and we make it a point on 2020 to make sure we say the names of the victims. We bring to life the names and the lives of these victims. And in this case, we're talking Sarah, Jennifer, Eliza, and Amy. And their families, all are trying to make sure that their memory, their legacy is honored. We see that so often. And the same is true in the case with these young girls as well. It's very true. And, you know, I go by the memorial. Even during the investigation when we would be stalling out and I'd be so frustrated, I would always stop, but I would go and get gas. It was out of my way, but it was right across from the yogurt shop. It just, I kind of wanted to feel their presence or their spirits and say, am I crazy for continuing to give me something, give me some sign. And there's a little memorial there for them. And sometimes I would just go touch it just to kind of give me strength. But after the case was over, going back there that day and being able to, and it was before we told the families and I was able to just put my hands on it and think, you know, the news that was about to break and how happy those families were going to be. Well, to finally learn the truth. And as I said, they're very fortunate to have had you on their side. You brought the truth. No matter how difficult it was, they did finally get some answers after all those years. Mindy, it is such a pleasure to get to talk to you. And I'm looking forward to meeting you in person here at 2021 of these days. So we'll keep working on something, maybe at some point down the world, I'm sure. And to our listeners and viewers, thank you for joining us as always for this podcast episode. And of course, remember, you can catch our latest 2020 episode on Friday nights on ABC and stream episodes like this one on anytime on Disney Plus and on Hulu. Thanks a lot. And we'll look forward to seeing you all next time. From 30 for 30 podcasts. Brian Pata, senior defensive lineman from Miami. Gunned down. The key to this case, it's Brian. Boy, he's ripped it. An hour before he died, he was on the phone arguing what's about. This might be a hit. You want the truth. They just want a conviction. Then place him to arrest. We had a killer amongst us. Murder at the U. Listen now. I'm R.J. Decker, a private investigator uncovering the sunshine state's darkest secrets. Tuesdays, it's the premiere of ABC's hottest new crime show. R.J. freaking Decker as I live and breathe. he's a private eye it's not a standard murder someone bigger and a public mass trying to get sent back to prison today you go to prison one time and suddenly it's all the jokes rj decker series premiere tuesdays on abc and stream on hulu