Episode 372: When to Push and When to Pull Back in the Middle School Years with Dr. Lisa Damour

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It's time to turn those what ifs into... With Shopify Today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash RBG. Go to Shopify.com slash RBG. That's Shopify.com slash RBG. Hey, friends. Welcome to the Raising Boys and Girls podcast. I'm Sissy Goff. And I'm David Thomas. And we're so glad you've joined us for this conversation. Let's dive in. Lisa DeMore is the author of three New York Times bestsellers, Untangled, Under Pressure, and the Emotional Labs of Teenagers, which have been translated into 23 languages. She co-hosts the Ask Lisa podcast, works in collaboration with UNICEF, and is recognized as a thought leader by the American Psychological Association. Lisa authored the monthly Adolescence column for the New York Times, is a regular contributor to CBS News, and created Untangling 10 to 20, a digital library of premium content to support teens and those who care for them. Lisa also serves as a senior advisor to the Schubert Center for Child Studies at Case Western Reserve University. Lisa maintains a clinical practice and also speaks to schools, professional organizations, and corporate groups around the world on the topics of child and adolescent development, family mental health, and adult well-being. Lisa also works with industry leaders on topics related to adolescent mental health, and was a consultant to Pixar on the film Inside Out 2. We were so honored to have Lisa back on the podcast since our first episode, She Has Become a Friend, and we love everything she writes, says, puts on Instagram everywhere. If you are not following Dr. Lisa DeMore, go do so now. Grab her books. All the things she has available were so excited to have this conversation with her today. We are so delighted to get to have you back on the podcast, and we were just saying it's so fun that between the first time we had you and you shared so much brilliant information, and this time we've gotten to be friends. I know. I love it. I love having you guys as friends. Well, we feel that way because you are certainly one of our most go-to resources, trusted voices in this world. We were just talking about how we quoted you incapable. I think we quote you in some talks. We do. We just trust your voice so much. That means so much to me. I was going to say, I don't know how many times we might have quoted her in this book. Multiple. Yes, yes. Probably all. Thank you. That means the world, and congrats on the book. Yay, I'm so happy that it's out in the world. Thank you, friend. Well, you have helped so many families reframe and move toward emotional health in a really beautiful way, and we would love for you to talk about what resilience looks like today for kids and often in this culture that we're living in where we're talking about being happy, sometimes at all costs. Yeah. Okay. Oh, boy. The drama I am beating all the time is that we cannot confuse being mentally healthy with being happy. Right? We cannot walk around with the idea that we know that we're mentally healthy or kids are mentally healthy when we feel good. That's just not how it works, right? And we care about people. We want people to feel good. That's great when it happens. But if you get the idea that that's the index of everything being okay, you're really in trouble because you might start a day feeling good and then somebody does something annoying and now you feel bad. And what's happened is not that your mental health has cratered, it's that you're having a bad day. And I worry about how fragile it can make people feel if they walk around with this idea that they are supposed to feel good and anything that doesn't feel good is grounds for concern. That's a really, really fragile place to live. Yes, absolutely. Building on that, at least we've been talking in this new book about a shift we're seeing in kids, their belief in their own capability, their belief that they can do hard things in the world in all the different ways that is showing up from walking into a school building to reaching out to a friend, not wanting to get their driver's license, which we, the three of us, were chopping at the bits to do. And just curious your thoughts on that shift and where the breakdown could be happening. Yeah, well, I think through no one's particular fault, I mean, I think that this has been a cultural wave that has taken over this idea that out there somewhere some emotional zen and the job is to get there and live there. I think that that has been sold to us by a wellness industry. I think that some well-meaning, but I think not entirely helpful, so-called parenting experts have suggested that if you just do all the right things, this is going to be easy as a parent. Like, that is not true. I think that that premise, that comfort is to be had and it can be had and it should be had is the backdrop against which this occurs. And then along comes something hard, like learning to ride a bike or calling that kid who you want to have a play date with where there's no guarantees it's going to go exactly the way you want it to go. And if we're working with the premise that you're not supposed to get uncomfortable, well, then now you can't do it, because that is inherent in that, is that there's going to be some discomfort. And so I really feel for parents because it's awful to watch your kid be uncomfortable. It's actually awful. And then if you have this backdrop of like, and it may be bad for them to be uncomfortable, like I've also heard this kind of rise and chorus of this sense that quite literally, distress will hurt children, that being in distress will hurt them in a kind of permanent way. That's a new idea and it's not true. Distress, like feelings or waves, they come up, they rise, they crest, they move on. But I really feel for parents who are like, if my kid gets very, very upset, it will harm them. I think that's really often underneath it. So if you think that, of course, you're going to stand between your kid and discomfort. So you are doing the beautiful work of reassuring families everywhere. No, no, no, kids actually can withstand quite a bit of discomfort that were built for this as humans. We are absolutely designed for discomfort and to learn and grow from it and very rarely does it cross the line to being actually harmful to kids. Often it's like, frankly, builds durability, which is what we're all for, right? It leaves, when you're durable, you can do all sorts of stuff. So that is at work, I think, very, very powerfully in all of this. And yet, I had the best moment, I was in an airport that had escalators. That were like, basically, it was the only way to get from one thing to another is what most people were doing. And there was a dad right in front of me and he was holding his daughter's hand and she was maybe six or seven and she was hesitant about the escalator. And he held her hand and he said, it's okay to be scared, but you can totally do it. And they did it. And I was right behind him and I went, buddy, you don't know me, but like, perfect. I just want to let you know, like 10 out of 10. And it just, it really stayed with me because, you know, I know it can be hard, but this guy's so naturally and she did it, which you and I, we all know, means the next time she will be less scared. Yes. But if he had been like, you're scared, let's take the elevator. Her anxiety would go down, she'd feel tremendous relief. This is highly reinforcing. And whatever she imagined about the dangers of escalators goes unchallenged because she'd never rode one. Yes. Yes. Yes. And the simplicity of that statement. I mean, it's so important and we think sometimes it's so complicated, we can't do it. He didn't stop. Like, I mean, they just were moving to, like, there were a whole bunch of people around him. Like, there wasn't the option of stopping. He's like, it's okay to be scared, but you can do this. And they did it. Wow. That's beautiful. Well, okay, speaking of discomfort, we want to talk specifically about middle schoolers for a little bit. We're talking about capability across development. And so we've landed in this really sweet middle school space. And have you ever read Anne Lamont? I have. I know exactly what you're going to read. You're going to read that opening piece from Operating Instructions about the seventh grade. Yes. You say it. That's awesome. You say it then. You can probably close it. No, I don't have it on hand, but I, it's actually the one thing I really remember from Anne Lamont. I thought it was so great. That's funny. Is it about the Apostle's Creed, the descent into hell? I think that's it. Like that she was pregnant and like that was her abiding anxiety, was that this kid was going to have to be in the seventh grade at some point. Oh no, I don't know that. Oh yeah. No, at the beginning of Operating Instructions, she talks about that was her number one worry while pregnant is that this child was eventually going to have to do the seventh grade. Isn't that funny? I love that so much. She is hilarious. Well, I read somewhere one time that she said that seventh grade for all of us is like the descent into hell that the Apostle's Creed talks about. There we go. So she clearly had a really rough seventh grade. It kept coming up. Yes. Well, okay. So for middle schoolers, they seem to hit a perfect storm of social pressure, which there is so much pressure, self doubt, emotional intensity. They are at times on already on social media. And what would you say is happening developmentally in those years that makes capability especially fragile? Such a good question. Okay. So I think probably there's two big forces at work here. So first of all, the kids are changing so fast, right? There's so little stasis for any one child in middle school, right? That their bodies are changing often in very surprising and not necessarily wanted ways. Their minds are changing, right? As they move, especially as puberty hits, and which will hit girls usually a little earlier than boys, their cognitive capacities change very dramatically in puberty. It's like this hugely forward and they can think and do things that they couldn't think, use their mind to do before. So I think part of what is hard is that you don't even know yourself. You don't even know what you can and can't do because if you couldn't do it yesterday, you might do it today, like it's really not clear. And then I think the other dimension of that is this is happening to everyone else around you at the same time, right? The kids, by their nature, I think all through development, but maybe especially middle school, are measuring themselves against one another. Who can do what? Who's in the turtles reading group? Who's in the eagles reading group? I hope they don't know. It is often when we start tracking kids in schools, right? So there is this sense of things starting to get sorted. You're being sorted, you're being sorted, your peers are sorted, and yet your capacities are changing constantly. And so it just feels like if we think about it through that frame, it injects so much doubt into like, what can I do? What should I be able to do? Why can that kid do that thing that like last week that kid couldn't do? Why can't I do that thing that I want to be able to do? So I think that's really hard. The other, you said perfect storm. I think there's like 17 perfect storms in middle school. I think it's so hard. Yes. The other one that I wish we talked about more is, when we talk about like Piagetian models of cognitive development, right? We talk about these different cognitive stages. And they're not clean cut. Like we know that from the research. But it's pretty fair to say that for most of middle school kids are pretty concrete thinkers that they're not able to take a situation and spin it around, see it from lots of perspectives, wonder about it, ask questions. And I think this is sometimes why it can be really hard to parent a middle schooler because you're like, you can go to that party and the kids like, no, I cannot. And the parents like, let me give you 40 good reasons. And the kids like, no, I cannot. And it has nothing to do with how bright the kid is. It is, this is my view and so be it. And there's no other way to see it. And so, if you kind of combine those things of like, they're shifting and changing fast, their peers are shifting and changing fast. They're getting sorted by the adults. And they don't actually have the neurological watershed yet that's going to let them sort of stand back from this, have some perspective on it, right? They're very almost kind of wearing blinders, right? And as they look at the thing in front of them. So if, which is all a very long winded way of saying in terms of capability, if they're sitting next to a classmate who seems to understand the math pretty fast, and they don't really understand what was put in front of them, it's very hard for kids not to think, well, I guess I just can't do it. Right. And like, and then leave it at that. 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Get 15% off your first order plus free shipping at bowlingbranch.com.racing with Code Raising. That's bowl and branch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com, slash raising, Code Raising, to unlock 15% off. Exclusions apply. Okay, let's talk for a minute about what might be some concerning signs. So what would you say would be some indicator lights that a middle schooler's starting to lose confidence in their capability to cope, even if they looked kind of fine from the outside? I have become really, really reactive to avoidance. Avoidance is so dangerous, and it really cuts right down the middle of questions of capability. So let's just stick with this math example. So a kid seems to be able to understand the homework or the assignment. I don't get it. I guess I can't do math. So now the kids made this decision, I can't do this, which is certainly not true. If the kid is like, well, I can't do it today, let's see where we are tomorrow, you're fine. But if the kid starts to check out in math because they've decided this is just so humiliating, or not turn in their work, or not be able to find their work, because they don't know how to say, I feel bad that I don't understand what that kid next to me understands. So I'm just going to, you know, kids can really, it's actually kind of worrisome, they can like really hide stuff for a long time before they don't realize like this kid has been, you know, not engaging this material for weeks at a time. I think avoidance is like the most dangerous slippery slope, because as soon as the kid starts avoiding, they start to fall out of the loop and then getting back in the loop gets that much harder. So I would be very, very highly sensitized if a kid's like, I don't feel well, I can't go to that class. I mean, you know, school nurses know avoidance better than anybody. They're always like, wait, you're always here at this time, right? So the kid is hitting the nurse, the kid who can't find the work, the kid who's wears up and down, they did the homework, they just don't know where it is, right? I would be all over that. Yes, that's so good. And they can hide things for a very long time. I had that conversation with parents yesterday. Well, and it's hard because they can dig themselves in, right? I mean, that's actually what's very worrisome is that it's very hard to fix it if the kid has managed to do three weeks of obfuscation. Yes, absolutely. Well, one of the zillions of things that we love that you have said before is that distress is not the same as disorder. Nope, nope, nope, nope. And we would love for you to talk about how parents can help kids understand that feeling anxious, left out, or overwhelmed does not mean that something is wrong with them, but they're actually building resilience in those moments. So I had the, you know, I think, you know, this, like, I got to work on the movie Inside Out 2 for four years, which is like the coolest thing in the world. Like, I was so lucky to get to do that. And I actually think that film is super useful because it has the pull through the kids watch it, parents watch it, it has color coded cartoon characters that let us talk about emotions, which, you know, talking about feelings as hard, they're very abstract. So I think there's, you know, it's not just like I want to talk about the fact that I got to work on it. I actually think it's like a legitimately useful tool. It is. We agree. And okay, so the first thing that's really valuable about that second film is at this point in the game, Riley has nine emotions. One is pleasant. Only joy. The other eight are uncomfortable emotions. Yes. And all nine are treated as members of her team. Not a one of them is treated as one to be banished, one to be gotten rid of. So Pixar nailed it with that, right? That I think that that's really helped them. I don't know. But I think that's such a great way to make the point often with kids and families like, look, Pixar got it right. Like, embarrassment has a role in our lives. Anxiety has a role in our lives. Anger has a role in our lives, right? Like, they all help to fuel us. They all give us feedback and guidance, right? So that's a great way to make that particular case. And then what's so beautiful about that film is they showed both sides of anxiety. You know, sometimes she's protecting Riley, you know, trying to keep her from getting in trouble with the coach in the locker room when she's cutting up and shouldn't be. Like, anxiety is like trying to get Joy to stop goofing around and Joy shakes her off and, you know, Riley gets in trouble. So anxiety is doing exactly the right thing there. And sometimes she spins out of control and imagines every worst case scenario and keeps Riley up at night. And that's irrational anxiety. And actually, that scene in the film, which happens in a pillow fort where anxiety is putting up all of these worst case scenarios, like literally catastrophizing. Like, catastrophizing as we think about it as clinicians on a cartoon perfectly. And it's actually discussed who has the line who goes, oh, no, anxiety is using Riley's imagination against her. And that's irrational anxiety. And that's not helpful. But I think that that's how we can make the distinction, right? Like that, by and large, unwanted emotions are natural and helpful. And then to even take it further, you know, to your point, it's not just that uncomfortable emotions are part of, you know, to be expected in mental health. They're often proof of mental health. And I think that's the piece we have to really push on, which is, if your kid's best friend moves away, your kid should be sad. If your kid bombs a test, they should be upset. And like, as clinicians, we know, if your kid's best friend moves away and they're indifferent to it, or if your kid bombs a test and they're indifferent to it, now we have a problem. So I think that what you're doing and what I'm doing is like, we're PR for discomfort, right? Like, it's supposed to show up. It's weird if it doesn't show up, you know? It helps build strength and helps build capability. And we, it tells us how things are going. Yes. That is a perfect transition into what we'd love to ask you next. So thinking about the very example you just shared, like, in that moment, we as parents, because we love our kids so much, intuitively believe, my job is to pull you out of this. My job is to lift you out of all this discomfort and sadness in that moment. And so thinking about the temptation to jump in too quickly, to move toward rescue, where is that line, would you say, between supporting and unintentionally undermining capability? Yeah, it's so, I have so much empathy on this. And and I think there is something actually, you know, your kid finds out at school that their best friend is moving away, walks in the house. And, you know, often what happens is, has held it together at school all day, and loses it when they walk in the door. So like a whole day's worth of distress comes out at once, which is very upsetting to any loving parent. Right? Like, oh, my gosh, this kid's like barely upright. I can tell you as in my own parenting, what I felt in these moments was like an evolutionary response. Like, my kid is in pain, I need to stop that pain. And, and I remember feeling like, even when my little girls were babies, like if they are like, like toddlers, if they had like a really yucky cold, and they were like, you know, they're congested, and they're really clearly uncomfortable. I remember looking at them thinking, I would so much rather have your cold than watch you have your cold. Like it's painful to me to watch you in discomfort. And I think that same kind of evolutionary, like we protect our children, we stand between them and bad things, really gets activated when they come in the house and they are right. And so I have a lot of grace for any parent is like, we'll move wherever they're moving. You guys can go to camp forever together. I mean, like, I think you have to override loving instinct. And that's really hard to do, right? So that's really hard to do. And that's the case you're making incapable. And it's exactly the right case. But to override loving instinct, we need to have a mental understanding, a mental model, that there is benefit to our kid discovering that they can withstand this. And that the only way they're going to figure that out is if we let them withstand it. And help them withstand it, not interfere, try to prevent the distress, but help them find the kind of coping that's going to work for them to get them through it. Well, let's talk more about that. So for the child who comes home and says, I can't do this, sports, school friendships, any of the things that we're hearing every day from kids right now, how would you coach a parent to respond in a way that builds capability instead of reinforces helplessness? So in my mind, pretty much regardless of the kid's age, and that's pretty unusual. Usually, you know, like we think about things in pretty developmentally specific frameworks. I think regardless of the kid's age, if I hear a kid walks in the door and says, I can't do this, I think the kid's actually asking a question, not making a statement. I think the kid is saying, do you agree that I can't do this? And I think we should treat it as that. Right? Now, I don't think it works. And we all know it doesn't want to be like, well, yes, you can. But I do think we want to have a plan for that moment. So I think you cannot go wrong with saying, talk to me, what happened? What's going on? Right? But even that is already saying, I'm not agreeing. Right? I'm not going to go with your framing of this and say, okay, well, how do we get you out of it? Like talk to me, what happened? Like you're already saying, I'm not in agreement. I think, you know, if a kid feels like more and more convinced as they talk to you about it, one of I learned this from a friend of mine who taught it to me about monsters under the bed. She said, which she was taught, I thought this was so smart is rather than saying, look, there's no monsters. Because of course, there's no monsters and the kid will like, you just can't see the monsters. You're down that road. You say, oh, it must, well, there's no monsters under your bed, but it must feel terrible to be scared of that they might be. Right? So you empathize with the kid's belief and the downstream effects of having that belief without endorsing the belief. Right? So I think the way I would transfer that, and this is to say, well, I do think you can't, but it's got to be awful to feel like you can't. Right? Now you're having that conversation, but you're continually rejecting the premise that the kid can't do it. Like talk to me about it. Okay. I know you can do this, but I hear you, you feel you can't. That must feel terrible. I think my other favorite clinical question I bet you guys use this to is, okay, but what's getting in the way of feeling like you can? What's getting in the way? I ask that constantly. Engaging around the kid's belief and questioning it in a gentle way, I think is where I would go. There's also, what would you tell your friend if they said that? And usually kids will summon the greatest advice in the world. Right? I mean, there's so many doors to walk into that are not, okay, I'll tell the coach you're quitting. With Mother's Day coming up, we have both been thinking a lot about our moms. 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I mean, they're all great, but like they're my favorites. Will you mention avoidance a little bit earlier? Let's circle back there for a minute. Pulling back from challenges, social situations or even responsibilities. How would you say we gently push teens toward engagement without pushing them away? Yeah, I know it's really hard. So I think there's a lot to be said for helping teens, parents, kids understand that as much as avoidance works in the short term, it invariably sets up a long term problem. And so when I'm talking with families about this, I'll say, look, avoidance, like it feels great. I'm worried about going to that party. I'm worried nobody's going to talk to me. I think I'll stay home. Suddenly feel a whole lot better. Right. And I really think it's important to validate their experience that this is working. And I also think about it even with a parent who doesn't require a kid to go to school because the kid's anxious. The kid gets up, they're unbelievably uncomfortable. The parent is uncomfortable because the kid's uncomfortable because you love that kid. Because I can't go, I can't go, I can't go. And the parents are like, well, do you have anything big today? And the kid's like, not really. And the parents are like, okay, fine, you can stay home. Instantly, the kid feels better. So here's what the parent just watched happen. The kid was wildly uncomfortable. The parent says the magic words, you don't have to do it. And their kid feels better. Like, how could this be bad? Right? Like, I love my kid, they were suffering now they're not like, I must be on the right track, right? So it's, it's very tricky because it does work. So what I say to all ages is, here's the problem, it serves up a three course meal for ongoing anxiety. So the first course is it feels so great, it makes you want to keep doing it, right? Like, that's right there. Second, whatever you thought was going to happen. Now it's unchallenged, right? It's like the escalator. And then third, and this is huge, I think when kids are avoiding school related stuff, or even social stuff, you're quickly out of the loop, right away that you're out of the loop, right? If you've missed one day of school, one, you know, event where everybody went and you didn't go. And so then getting back in the loop gets harder every moment you don't do it. My husband's a high school teacher. I will not say that our daughters have to be bleeding from the eyes to not go to school, but it's like just shy. Because he has seen this, you know, kindness is a day and then getting them back in even after one day, much less a week is really hard. So that's why when you asked earlier about like, what would I watch for avoidance in any form, you got to nip it in the bud, it gets out of control very quickly. Yes. Thank you. One, something David talks about that I really love is he talks about how as kids move toward adolescence that that peers shift to being more of the primary P in a child's life versus parents. And, and we would love for you to talk a little bit about as that shift happens, how does a parent not just stay influential because that is important, but also staying connected. What does that look like? Yeah. Well, job number one is not to feel like you've been broken up with and dumped for the friends, right? I think it feels so personal. Yes. And I think that if it's felt that way, it doesn't set you up well, right? Because you're hurt, you've got a grudge, you feel left out, you feel resentful, right? Like that's not a great grounds for connecting with your kid. And, and so, you know, I think you're all the time trying and I'm all the time trying to reassure parents that this is actually normal, expectable and important for kids. And the way I think about it is like to like loosen ties a little bit at home so they can strengthen ties to a peer world and eventually move out. This is like that's where we're headed and this is part of the deal. So, depersonalizing it and recognizing this is not a rejection because it feels like a rejection and sometimes kids can be kind of snarky in the cut process and so then it really feels like a rejection. So, I think don't make a personal, that's like, Matt, if you do that, nothing else is gonna work. And then once you haven't made it personal, I think about this all the time, be ready to reconsider what makes for connection. Okay, so when I, when parents ask me all the time, like, how do I stay connected? Like, what does what does connection look like with my teenager? Okay, I think we don't quite say it, but I think we have our idea about what connection is with our teenager. And I think our idea, if we're really honest, is like the kid comes in, you know, from a long day at school, and we're like, how is school? And they're like, oh my goodness, listen to what happened. And they tell us everything. And then we're like, wise words, wise words, great advice, great advice. And they're like, oh my God, you're so helpful. I love what you made for me. Right, it's hilarious. Like this, no, it never goes down like this. But I think deep inside, that's our script. For this is how I know we're connected, is it you've had a hard time and you want me to help you and you let me help you, and bingo, we're connected. Okay, that is not the teenager's script. Occasionally, but pretty rarely. And I want to come back to what actually teenagers do want in that moment, because I think there's something really important that ties to your book. I think, I know kids have a different script for what connection looks like. And I ask teenagers, like, when do you feel most connected to your parent? And the things they tell me are very quiet, right? They don't necessarily involve conversation. They'll say, you know, it's when we're driving in the car and they let me DJ, like run the music, and they're interested in the music I like. Or I had a girl say, oh, my dad and I love science podcasts. And so we have this deal where one of us picks a podcast and the other one picks the episode and we listen to them while we drive. Okay. Now, maybe that dad's thinking, gosh, I really wish we were talking, but what the kids thinking is, I feel so connected. Like this feels so meaningful to me. So I think, you know, even around like video games, kids video games, I think there's real value in being like, why do you like talk to me about this game, right? Like, and with no gotcha built in, right? Like, you love this game. Like, help me understand more about why you like this game, right? Like, being invested in the things they're invested in, not having it be about questions, agendas, advice, things like that. That's how you stay connected to teens. And in my experience, if you sort of can just be low-key about it, like quietly present, I wrote a piece 10 years ago for the New York Times called like, what do teenagers want? Potted plant parents, like they want you there. They want you available. They want you less intrusive, right? And so that's often when kids do come and find us and start talking about stuff that matters to them. And if it matters to them, then it's got to matter to us. Great. I heard about potted plant parents before I ever knew about you. You were being quoted in my office. I love that so much. But I want to come back when I said about when kids are upset. So a couple of years ago, I got to do a gallop poll. I was given a gallop poll by the Walton Family Foundation, gave me a gallop poll. So I got to ask teenagers all sorts of questions. And one of the questions I asked is when you're upset, what is it you want adults to do? And I could sort of split it older and younger teenagers. And older teenagers were like, number one, just listen, like just let me vent. Number two, give me space. And I was so glad to see that in black and white, right, in this poll of refindings. Because I think that the way it reads for the parent is, I haven't seen my kid all day. They walked in the house, clearly something's wrong. They made a beeline for their room and closed the door. And it is so easy to, as the parent to think, like, what is going on? Why won't you tell me? I could help. I want to help. Why are you shoving me away, boxing me out? But if we read this through the pages of your book, what that kid is doing is, I want to find my way through this. I want to use my own resources, my own internal resources, or listen to my playlist, which is 99% of the time what they're doing to help themselves feel better, or, you know, watch Wild Crats, even though I'm 18, or whatever it is, I want to use what I have at my disposal to help myself get back to a place of feeling, okay, we're doing resilience exactly as we want it, not the absence of distrust, the ability to recover from it. And I want to do it myself, and I want you to give me enough room to make that happen. And I will come out of my room when I'm ready, and I'm going to pull myself together, and I will have done it for myself. Mmm. What a great reminder. So good. You have offered us so many rich ideas to consider throughout our conversation. Is there one other idea you'd invite parents to consider as they think about raising kids who feel capable of doing hard things? I think we have to tap into our own life experience. I think about every one of us has had really tough bosses, right, or really, but teachers who we would say are not a good fit, right, or, you know, roommates who were a challenge. And I think every one of us knows, you know, somewhere in our life, we can point to the fact that, oh, my ability to work for that tough boss who actually had, you know, other people had a hard time with was actually critical to my future success, right, that I didn't need it to be just so and I could adapt to a situation that was less than ideal is actually how I got that next job that I really wanted. And if I had tapped out of that job because that boss wasn't my favorite, I would have lost that other opportunity. So I think the more that we can actually reflect on how the times when we had no choice but to go through something hard, or we had a choice and we decided to do something hard and built our own durability, built our own sense of capability, I think we can realize, oh, I want that for my kid and it only comes by letting them figure this thing out. Okay, so that's like the one way to say it. Here, I'll tell you say it another way. So my, you know, distress is coming for your child. There's no, there's no getting around this. And they can't, they can't feel that if it comes, they have to run from it. And this is such a funny example. But when my older daughter was a junior in college, so she, she went to Barnard in Manhattan and they housed them in really what are very old apartment buildings in on the Upper West Side of New York. And so her junior year housing situation was in this old apartment building. And for the first three weeks of her junior year of college, she did not have a working toilet in her suite. So every time that she had to go to the bathroom, she had to go down this rickety old elevator to the equivalent of an old lobby. And that was where she used the restroom. Okay, this was, she did not like this. I heard quite a bit about it. You can't, you can't come home from college over this. Right. So I think that like distress is coming for your child. Help them get ready, I think is another way to think about it. Yes. That was a great statement. Distress is coming for us all. Yes. So for anyone who somehow has not gotten ahold of all of your amazing books, which we said in your introduction, we want everybody to read every single one of them. Listen to your podcast, follow you on Instagram, all the things because there's just so much wisdom. Will you talk about where folks can find you? And follow along. So my website is drlesademore.com, drlesademore.com. And I have all the things you mentioned. There's two other things I want people to know about, two other free resources. One is I write a weekly newsletter. I write it myself. It's what I do over the weekend. And it pivots off of my previous week's podcast and just gives really pithy, you know, boom, boom, boom advice. The other is I worked with a company to develop an AI-powered librarian who answers questions based only on my work. So, wow, it's super cool. My daughter was 13 when she named it Rosalie. So Rosalie lives on my website and I took all my books, all my podcast transcripts, all of my newsletters, all of my work for the New York Times. I wrote nearly 100 pieces for the New York Times and put it into a gated environment and that's her brain. And so if you ask questions like I just found vapes in my kid's room, Rosalie will generate an answer. She doesn't pretend to be me because that's creepy. She'll just say, here's what Lisa says based on her work. And then she'll give you the source material. Here's the podcast on that. Here's the New York Times piece on that. And so you get an answer right away because you often need an answer right away. But if you want and have more time to think it through, integrate it, she'll also give you where to go in my work to find more. So I am trying just to help families wherever they are in the moment they need it. And so Rosalie is a pretty powerful tool for making that happen. That makes me so grateful. I have had, I just told David this earlier, two parents this week tell me that they got on chat GPT to ask parenting questions. Have them get on Rosalie. That's what I was going to say. How's great to be able to direct them to Rosalie. Oh, that's wonderful. Not the whole wide internet. And that's on your website? Yep. Okay. There's a tab on the left, ask Rosalie. And, and, wow. So that's the way to find it. Yeah. Thank you. You're bad. I love being with you both. Well, us too. And we just couldn't respect you or value your work in the world anymore. Well, same, same, same. David, what a team we have that we get to call friends who help make this podcast possible. Chris, Jared, our engineer, our management team at KCH. And we are thrilled to be a part of the That Sounds Fun Network. Our music was created by the insanely talented Dave Haywood of Lady A. And if this podcast felt helpful to you, please consider subscribing, liking, sharing all the things. We are grateful for you and cheering you on always.