Wesley Morris: How Critics at Large See the Stories We Miss

It's fascinating to look at when Superman movies come back and when they don't. Oh, yes. When they do well and when they don't. It's a great point. It's like, there's a moment when America is telling a story about itself being exceptional and fighting the Russians and fighting communism. Superman's the thing. And then that story like fades away. Superman fades away. And then the Superman that becomes popular and comes out is like a gritty non-Superman-y Superman. That's the Trump. The first Trump Superman. That's like the, and then now the American Superman sort of thing is like back and the parents are even more folksy and the, you know what I mean? It's like, it's interesting to think about like what we're experiencing in our world. And then the question, then the question becomes, is the art imitating life or is life imitating art? This is What Now with Trevor Noah. This episode is presented by Whole Foods Market. Eat well for less. You guys both have like old men names. Um, you know, no, but it's true though. Yeah. Wesley, Wesley's a very like not now name. Wes is a young person. Yeah, Wes, Wes, but Wesley. I would like to see the birth certificate because I'm sure they're not even bothering with the. You know, but think about it. Wesley is a, is like an older name in that way. And then Eugene is also a name. I prefer my chore, not older. I mean, you can take it the way you want. I meant it not as a slur or a slight cause I, I don't see age. I appreciate that. What do you see? I, uh, yeah. That's so well. Yeah, no, I, I was just talking about it. I, I was just talking about women's names that you're just never going to get again. Ruth, Ethel, Ruth, Ethel, Margaret. My grandmother's name was Martha. Oh, I like Martha. Um, that's kind of not dead yet. Um, there's an, I was a Hazel, but Martha always felt incomplete. Why? My mother, Martha Ann. You see Martha Ann. Yeah. I was her. Yeah. Martha Ann. I was Martha, but only if they didn't know there was an Ann. If you knew it was Martha Ann. Then it was Martha Ann. Where's your mom from? Uh, Philadelphia. Okay. Judith. There's another one. My mother's name is Judith. My father's name is Arnold. Arnold can come back. Really? Yeah. I don't know. No. What do you mean no? I, I know that. When's the last time you met Arnold? Yeah, but guys, guys, all these names, and I'm actually, you're the perfect person to talk to about this stuff. Why? It's perfect to have these conversations with you. And I want to say thank you and apologize to you for not giving you like a full idea of why we're here. Right? I had been asking and then I was like, you know what? I trust these guys. Thank you. So I'm here. But I'm not ordinary. I walk into a blind environment and not know what I have been. But for Negroes, I will do it. For two Negroes, I will definitely, I will do it. So, so let me explain, right? The reason I say you the perfect person is because of what I would like this episode to be. I was trying to explain to a friend the other day what a critic at large is basically doing. No. See? I am that friend. Go ahead. No, no, no, no, no, no. But I was, oh yeah, it was you. So for a second I was like, are you taking the other? And I was like, oh yeah. It was look alike to him. It was, it was you. You see how he was like, we're all one. It must have been another Negro. We're all, we're all. It was, we're all one. So. What office are you running for? Okay. So I have a boudege. So not even Pete wouldn't even try that. Yeah, Pete wouldn't do that. Don't slam the Pete like that. Okay, okay. You were right here with him. Don't slam the Pete. So, what I was trying to explain was like your superpower and I genuinely think it's a superpower. Okay. It is the ability to look at culture, notice trends that other people may not necessarily be, necessarily be noticing. Okay. So beyond that and understand what the trend actually tells us when you correlated with something else, its origins, its, its moment, its significance. And I know someone listening or watching this might be like, wait, what did you just say? You'll see it unfold and names is like a perfect place. Right. You just said, which name is never, Judith is never coming back. Yeah. Judith. Margaret. Arnold is never coming back. Those are my, my parents' names, Meethles and Aunt. Yeah. So good. Yeah. I think we're holding a say aunty. Oh, did she, did she also, she's like wearing purple. Ethel? Yeah. A hundred percent. Ethel was basically purple. I see her in her. But that's, that's alcohol. So this is what I mean. Names are like a perfect place to start this conversation in because there's a generation that'll have a name. Right. Yeah. So now we go, oh, there's no more Judith's. There's no more Edith's. There's no more this. There's no more that. There's no, then I go, yes, but all it takes is one moment, one elected official, one famous athlete, one movie star, like a name, a character, something. And all of a sudden it comes back. Right. Yeah. I like this. This is, this is definitely persuasive. There's one problem. Let's go. I think that the cycle has basically begun to eat itself. Right. So like it's a, it used to just be maybe a line, but now it's a circle. So, you know, explain the line. The line used to be people would get born. Yeah. They would die. The names wouldn't get too crazy because everybody was essentially, well, there were certain goals and then the browner, the gayer, the more, the less from England, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, BK. Less Eurocentric. Yeah. The more, the more interesting the names got in terms of spellings, in terms of just the variety of options. But I think culturally, I don't know. I don't know when to say this started, but it definitely feels like in the last 20 years, I think that like when you're talking about like what you need is a very famous person to then change the name conversations. Yes. But I mean, think about it. It's all tailors and Jacobs and Travis's and Jason's and Trevor's. And well, not as much, not as many Trevor's, right? Trevor's still would be like, what a gift. Thank you. Thank you, Wiz. Thank you. Sorry. What a what? A gift. Of what? Of a kind of variety. Eugene dead. Wesley dead. I didn't mean that one coming. Right, sorry. No, no, no, no. You're out. You're the last Eugene. I just, I don't know. Like we're going to get a lot less interesting names. And I think in this country, in terms of, you know, I, the play A place to look is like, what are like people from other countries, like especially Asian countries? What are they choosing as their like American name? Right? Like what are, what are those names? Because I just want to live in a world where like, you know, is just that's the new James in the US. That is the name. Right. They're like white kids walking around being called you. But I don't know if we really want that, but like the odds, odds are low because of the way assimilationism works here. Right. Like the assumption is you won't get into college if he's you, you won't get a job with some white people if he's you. Right. So he's, he's James period. And I think for his, for his, I don't know what lots of other cultures are doing, but predominantly if you come here and you want to make it, you can't be Sandeep. You got to be Sandy. You got to be Sam. I think that still feels true. Like I've met a lot of South Asians, for instance, who have not changed their names or changed them, but like ascribed some, given themselves some new name. But in the meantime, in order for the name thing to change, like here's a, here's a test. How many Barak's do you know? Only one. Right. Exactly. I think there's something about, I also was like naming your kid Jesus in a way. Right. It is a bit like, it's very unique. Yeah. We had the same thought. Yes. Yeah. You did? Yeah. You just, you said, what else? What else? Yeah. I have $5,000. What do you? We don't have the same thoughts. We don't have the same thoughts. Definitely. $5,000 or two like having your possession $5,000. I don't know. They're, they're interesting like things. Okay. I mean, Donald, that's a dead name. I don't care how powerful, how cataclysmic. Is someone coming back? Nobody. Donald's not. I don't care how much they love this man. You think Donald has become too ubiquitous or it's become like too like singular? It's old fashioned. It's just not a cool name. Then why didn't Barak catch on? I don't know either. He was loved. I think that's too ethnic. It's considered too ethnic. Just think about the US, right? Just think about the way that Americans brainwash themselves into believing that things have to seem, sound, feel American. Yes. He ran the country for eight years. Yes. Many, many people profess to love him, but the real test is would you name a baby after this person? And I don't think even Donald, have you, have you heard about it? Have you heard about Donald? No. I don't know what the, we should look up the top 10 names in the last like 10 years, but I don't believe Donald is on. So you see what you've just done now is why I wanted to have a conversation with you and why I wanted to have you on. My dream and my goal is that by the end of this episode, you help us. This episode. Yeah, this episode. You help us to understand or help us learn how to process the world through the lens of a critic at large because I'll try and break down what you do and you'll correct me on the other side of it. Wherever I go, like a straight. When I think of what a critic at large does, the first thing I do is I have to separate it from a critic generally. So a critic is somebody who is criticizing or commenting on the elements of any particular thing, food, movie, et cetera, et cetera, but that's it. A critic at large is somebody who is looking at society, all of the elements that are within that society and then tries to notice how the shifts in that society are telling us a story that the society itself doesn't notice. You know what I mean? And so like when I was thinking of examples, actually I'll play this out with you and I'll see if I have it right here. Would you write about the US Open just coming back to New York for another year? No. Okay. No. Would you write about Sina, Yannick Sina beating just like a random person in one of the early rounds? Okay. Perhaps. Okay, but that's not a yes. I mean, it depends on who he played Dennis Shapovalov in the fourth round or maybe the fourth round, I want to say. That was a good match. He took a set off him, maybe the third round. But no, that would be a data point. I would make a mental note to remember that Dennis Shapovalov got a set off Yannick's center. Would you write about people's reaction to Carlos Alcarez cutting his hair off? Yes. 100%. That's the Ed Lodgepunt. No brainer. Do you see what, you remember what I told you? So now I'd love for you to explain why. Because you love tennis. Yes. You are observing a US Open as it's playing out. Yes. Why is it that Carlos Alcarez cutting all of his hair off and the reactions to it is what you would write about at the tennis and not the tennis itself? Well, it's connected to the tennis. Yeah, of course it is. It's that the US Open is the place where people do the weirdest stuff to themselves. I mean, just like a recent ish history of weird clothes and hair at the US Open. There's a player named Dominic Rabati, H-R-A-B-T-Y, who showed up at the Open. I'm pretty sure it was the Open. And he had his shirt had two vents in the back. They were like cut out of the shirt, like two holes, like where wings might maybe have one. Like angel wings. Yeah. And he played, I mean, I don't know, he maybe lasted to the third round. He was one of those, Rabati was one of those players like he could give you trouble every once in a while. Right. He would make it to the third round of just about every tournament. But he wore that outfit and it's like, what's the story here? And, you know, he just got him a lot of attention. It was a weird thing to wear and it made no aerodynamic sense. He claimed, I think the claim was that it did. It helped his tennis. OK. So, something about the airflow on his back and it just felt really good to hit a back end. Serena, every great, terrible thing she ever wore pretty much happened to the US Open. Wow. So, into this history of like things people wear at the US Open comes Carla Salcarrez, who was wearing in his sort of purple getup, purple magenta, whatever, getup, you know, standard, pretty good thing to wear at the Open. When he shows up with a haircut, it looks like he got 30 seconds before he got on court. Yeah. You could still see nicks. It was like, yeah, it was a fresh, fresh, fresh, fresh, fresh buzz, fresh, fresh. So, what I saw at the final was not. No, no, no, no, no, no. Was actually the final result. Yeah. No. Well, the final, it's like funny story about the final is we learned how fast hair can grow. Because by the end of the tournament, he looked like himself again. Yeah, he did. So, when was the haircut in, leading to the? The claim was that he wanted his brother to touch up his haircut maybe that day. And you know, made a mistake. That's why you don't. I mean, there, this is. You don't buy it. Oh, I believe it. 100%. I believe it. Well, wait, oh my God, do I not believe it? I didn't even give it a second thought. I believed it. I believe it. Eugene doesn't believe it at all. I don't buy it. There's something else I don't buy it. The US Open that I'll talk to you about.����������������� I want to know why do you think the person wouldn't just cut their hair and then because I mean, the days are gone of at least like being afraid. Why do you think he wouldn't just say, yeah, it's my new look? Because I think he knows what the impact would be of him appearing different. Here's my rebuttal to this, because I've thought about it. With this, I have I didn't think that I didn't think the way you were thinking. So hats off to you, because that's that is interesting. But what I thought was this is clearly a mistake because first of all, it looks terrible. It did. It looks like a mistake got made and they just decided, you know what, shake the etch a sketch. Just it never happened. You know what I say that to people who make mistakes? No, shake the etch a sketch. Just well. It is a great line. Shake the etch a sketch. I mean, just like we don't want to shake the etch a sketch. Anymore, we're over. We need to read, keep drawing. Just keep turning them. Make something new. Don't shake it and then put it in the Smithsonian and lock that shit up. No, I thought it's got to be a mistake. You're in New York City. I don't know what the per capita barber situation is here versus the rest of the US anyway. But there are more people who could give you a great haircut easily in keys and queens. Yes. He could go, I mean, I'm sorry. It's got to be a mistake. But also the idea that nobody said like, like Francis Tiafo wasn't like, listen, when I'm in New York, here's where I go. Because you got to get a line up or just you need to shape it up. Get a line, get something because this is this is not working. This is a mistake. You can't go out there like that. When anyway, look like he just fell out of a calf's butt is how is how fresh that haircut was. He looked like he just got born. It just, I don't know. But what was interesting to me was that he addressed it and pseudo apologized. And that's that's what made me think of you. I went, we don't expect this of you, Carlos. Yeah, but you've got the best hair in men's tennis. Why would you do this to us? That's the apology. For exactly that reason. For exactly this. Now you see this is what I mean. No, but this is what your brain does though. But what were you thinking when you saw it? I won't lie. I wasn't thinking too deeply about it because I a few months ago, David Beckham was cutting his own hair. He cuts his own hair and then he was cutting his own hair and then he messed up. And then like fall for these scams all the time. You calm down. You just calm down. And wait, what were the scams? And David Beckham just like he was like and he like just messed up a little bit. And then he made a video. He's like, I messed up my hair. Oh, there we go. Right. Yeah. And then he just shaved it. I don't know what he did, but he like fixed it, but he also did that. So I go, there's a good chance that you can mess up your hair. Call us Alcorhiza story made like boring sense to me. You're traveling. Your barber couldn't get to you in the way you planned. Yeah. So your brother's like, let me handle this. I've been in that situation where someone close to you is like, I got you. How hard can it be? Yeah. And then they know firsthand how hard it can be using your head. Right. They find out. They find out. Yeah. But that wasn't the thing that got me. The thing that made me think of you, because I knew you were coming on the podcast, obviously was I went, why is this such a thing? They spoke about it the entire tournament. They, he kept on like acknowledging it. He had to keep on saying like, what do you think now? And and I found myself wondering. I was like, huh, what is this saying about the US Open and the people who watch the US Open and the community of the US Open that that we don't know that it's actually saying or not saying? Like, is there a sport where the person wouldn't have had to address it? Would they ignore it? Would the commentator say anything about it? Like, what is it about that echelon? You know what I mean? I think it has a lot to do with who the person is and what the environment is. Right. Like, think about where my brain goes when you put it that way. Yeah. Is like. NFL Training Camp 2012, I think. 2011, 2000, 2011, probably. And Tom Brady shows up for camp and he's got. Hair that comes down to here. This is a thing nobody had seen this before. Why is Tom Brady's hair down to it? What's he trying to tell us? What's Gisele making him do? Because they were still together at the time. Like, it was a real story for like the first four games of the season. Yeah. What is going on? And if he cuts the hair now, is it a Samson and Delilah thing? Where the season's over? If he cuts it, it was a whole thing. Like there are these occasions where a person's or our idea of a person. It's challenged in some way because the person is like, you know what? Fuck it. I'm I'm getting out of this prison. I want to the thing that you think you love about me. I'm removing it. Damn. I'm I'm challenging it in some way. It's not always hair or like clothes. It's like how I how I what roles I take. In Carlos's case, it was truly an accident. But he felt compelled to respond to it because he couldn't even win a match and go to a press conference without like the second question being. So what happened? Even though he had already addressed it, like this is a thing he's already talking about. But then you start thinking about who else got bald and had to like account for the baldness. It's usually women. It's usually women who get a haircut and then have to apologize for having gotten the haircut, right? Or what is a woman telling us when she does? I mean, Britney Spears, famous example of a woman who, you know, not. I mean, I guess you didn't appreciate how important the hair was to the get up until there was no hair. Right. And Halle Berry go through such as well. Was the point where Halle Berry cut her hair off, right? When she cut it short. Right. It was short. And people were like, right. But she's still Halle Berry. Like it doesn't matter what Halle Berry does to her hair. Like this just doesn't matter. Sigourney Weaver and that fourth Aliens, right? Like what is Ripley? What is what is going or the third Aliens movie? I want to say is the third one of the fourth one. I think the the Winona writer one. Yeah. When women go short that way, it's just a scandalous thing. And it's usually received as some attempt to like get closer to masculinity. But with Carlos Alcárez, because he's already so boyish, it just it did it neither toughened him up. It made him seem even younger somehow. Mm hmm. Like truly, like he had just like like climbed out of the call of of, you know, that that that protective coating that animals and people are born. Yeah, like an alien movie, actually. And I think that like there was it just was too much for people to accept that this had happened. And you could hear the buzzing when he took the first took the court that first match mission to come. Like you could just hear people being like, oh my God, what was he trying to say? But the truth is like he had to then say, I'm not trying to say anything. This was an accident. Hopefully by the end of the tournament, we won't be having this conversation anymore because I will have won it. And I was nervous that what I was really the thing I would have tried to write about if I jumped on it the night it had happened because it was a night match. Because I sat on my sofa for about 20 minutes being like, should I do it? Should I do it? Should I do it? And then like, what should I do? And the story would have been seeing what night what like if he makes it to round three. Yeah. Like what round three is like, like, are we still talking about the hair? Yeah, yeah. Still a story. Um, so I sat there and I really thought about it. But it was so clear. I was like, is it going to affect his play? Is it going to like, is he going to be in his head about this? And it's just like a weird it's a burden that men never have to deal with. Right. Like, is my appearance going to cost me something? Oh, damn. And now this is critic at large now. This is like a thing women always. I mean, in addition to all the other shit that women have to take on a tennis court with them, right? Like, you know, I hope my body cooperates. I hope I don't hear somebody say some stupid sexist shit in the third row, which happens not. I mean, I don't want to say not infrequently, but I've heard it. Like somebody saying something to Sabalenka about something. I'm a Lee Merezmo. They called her a man. We'd go to these tennis tournaments and they would just call her a man. There's a thing she had to hear. I mean, maybe her whole career. Serena Williams, Venus Williams, the things that they I mean Sloan Stevens. Just like the things you have to put up with. Just because they're an ear shot. Now, here's a man having to like explain his physical appearance in a way that I don't recall a male tennis player, male athlete really having to do. Unless you're joking, unless you're unless you're Yokech and or or or Luca Luca Donchich, yeah, yeah, yeah, who it's the opposite problem. It's like he was being dog for years of being overweight and then he lost a ton of its lost the weight. And now everybody's like, well, I mean, I don't know how this is going to go. It lost the weight. This guy can't win. Like God traded, got into the best shape of his life because he needed to. I mean, I don't I don't know what Luke needed. But like it can't hurt that he's. Oh, no, no, I mean, that's what LeBron said, right? He said he improved his longevity by years by dropping, I don't know the exact number, but it was it was a pretty substantial amount. I think stands to be corrected, maybe 20 pounds. Yeah, I mean, he was just like it just it just helped him last longer in the game. Yeah, I mean, I liked that body because, you know, as a tennis player, that is Stan Vavrinca's body. Yeah, right. Like Stan Vavrinca was built just like that. One three majors against, you know, you know, during the big three era, beat all those guys. Did he beat Federer really in a meaningful way ever? No, but he beat Rafa and he beat Djokovic to win majors. And I don't know, I like that body. But the idea that he now has to talk about it, he's going to spend however many months of the NBA season when it starts. Just talking about that. Just talking about like, you know, whether or not, depending on how the Lakers do, is it is it the new body doesn't need to get used to it? Is it is it just the wrong body for this guy playing this game? You know, the dumb shit that people have to talk about. But men don't have to deal with it. This is a woman problem. And so wait, so what does it say that men are starting to have to deal with it? Oh, I don't know if they are. That's what I don't think they are. I think in this case, Carlos Alcaraz did. Yeah, OK. But and so I was not doing it. Oh, you saying he could he could have just carried on playing. Yeah, none would have said anything. But now when you look at, I do think he was being asked about it. That was the news, right? Like this is now a thing that he has to. It's the same. This was happening simultaneously. How about this? The same tournament, Coco Goff. She was the other story of the tournament. And that was the story of the tournament until she lost, right? They stopped talking about Alcaraz, maybe by the third round. Yeah, she loses in the fourth round. And the story of the tournament is. She's getting her serve fixed in real time. She's getting her forehand fixed in real time. Let us count the double faults. Let us let us like keep track of every time Coco Goff double falls or she fixes or serve. She needed to fix it because she's she's got the most double faults on the tour. But she knows that and she's working on it. Maybe because she has stayed home and just worked on her serve until January. I don't know. That's not that's not my business. But this woman had the had the. Bravery courage determination to enter the tournament and see how this, you know, technique surgery was going in real time. And the tennis commentators, that's all they would talk about during her matches. That's all the press conferences were about when she won the matches and when she lost, she had to explain that too. It's just like it's such a burden. It's such a burden having to. And this is not necessarily because she's a woman, but I don't recall any man. Changing how they play the sport that they play in real time. And having to like constantly talk about it. And that that gets in here. And I was worried with Alcoraz that that all of that talk and self explanation would get in his head, but he played. He seemed to. He played that was the best tennis I have ever. It was not the most exciting tennis, but he wasn't going to keep winning like this with exciting tennis. He just went in and he became a bull. He reminded me of Nadal in some ways. He's like a Spanish boy pushing through similar outfit. But I want to go back to what you were saying about I sat on the couch and I thought, should I write this? Should I write this? For 30 minutes. Yeah. And then you went, no, I'm not going to. I want to get into that. Like, how do you decide what you should write and what you shouldn't write? Like, what was what was the last piece that you put out? Let's talk about that. Uh, well, you know, well, it's funny because I'm making this podcast. Yeah, it's called Cannonball. And a lot of my time is being spent like figuring out, you know, how much time to spend making our show. OK. And how much time to spend writing these pieces. And it's now at a place where like, I'm like, oh, I think I've struck a balance where writing I can write pretty much as often as I used to and still make this show. So the answer to your question, the last thing I think was published that it was a piece that had nothing to do with the show was about how to look at art in museums, like, like not how to look at art in museums. Let's be extra clear. How one should position oneself to not be cut off by some other art looker. Right. Like, how does one stand? How should one stand? How far away from a painting do I need to stand to keep your ass from cutting in front of me? Well, I'm looking at it. And to make sure I still enjoy the full experience of looking at the art. I'm having a moment with this piece of art. What? Like, is it two feet? Is it six inches? You know, I mean, what? Now you see that that's such a left field term for me. Why do you think that was significant? Art seems like such a like it's such a niche world. It's such a, you know, highfalutin world. Is why did that? What were you? What did you get to in that piece? That wouldn't be obvious when I read the headline. I think it's not the deepest thing I've ever written. No, no, no, but still, what what did you? Well, I think it's just that everybody makes this mistake and nobody really thinks that it's a problem. It's the it's the it's the kind of etiquette, you know, I am probably 15 percent Larry David, you know, only like, well, no, no, really, because the 85 percent is why I'm I'm in this job and not doing Kirby. But I think the degree to which, you know, there's a Larry David and a lot of us. Yeah. It meets up in these areas in which decisions are made on our behalf, allegedly to make them easier, but make them worse. I would identify packaging is this, you know, like, I mean, famously, there's a Kirby enthusiasm episode. Sort of what the way he buys the the scissors that open the package. But then he gets them in the package and he can't open the package without the scissors because the scissors to open the package are in the package to open packages. It's it's it is the deepest realist, but obvious, most obvious. One of the most obvious problems we humans face is like how to get something out of something, how to like remove something from something else. But another one is is each other. Like how do we deal with each other? Like strangers. Right. How do we how do we comport ourselves in public space? That's a huge Larry David question. And for me, I hate it when I am looking at a painting, a sculpture, whatever, whatever, whatever the museum is like asking me to stand here and look at. And somebody's just like, boop, boop, boop, breaking this connection that I'm having with the with the work. I'm not trying to take a picture with my phone. I'm doing it with my eyes. You're standing there. But maybe you're standing for too long with I've got places to go to you've been here for five minutes. I've been behind you. I mean, come on, Eugene. Have you ever seen a queue for and Mona Lisa does not count. Where's the queue? Oh, Guernica at the Prado. There's another I've seen a line to look at. How did you know that's my one thing that I want to see here? Is what? Guernica. Oh, it's in Spain. You've been serious. Yes. It's you got to go to Madrid. But what is that painting that Picasso has at the United Nations building? Oh, what is that? You should go. Yeah, you should go right now, though, because they're coming next week. UN week is next week. So get over there. I want to see that. What's oh, there is a Picasso. That is Guernica. When you know, when you might be a replica of my be when you go there, you should stand. Yes, that makes sense. And then I hope where's cuts in front of you. I would never while you're staring at. So what was your conclusion? Where did you come to? What's the rule? How far should you stand? How long should you stand for? I just don't. Were you wrong? Who was wrong? I mean, I'm sure there's a world in which like I need to get over myself. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm open. See, the thing about me is I am open to the possibility that there's another way. OK, cool. Which is why I'm not a world leader. And I'm just a critic because I know that there's there's another opinion or another way of doing things that might be better than the one I've got. But I think that the I mean, conclusion. I think you should just. It was removed. Oh, OK. It was removed. I ceremoniously saw. Oh, sent back to the Prado. The Prado took it back. Yeah, OK. Yeah, in 2022 it was. The Prado ceremoniously removed. The Prado, it comes home to the Prado. I mean, it really should be in northern Spain with the Basque people, honestly. That's where it belongs. It should not even be in Madrid. But we'll take it because the Prado is one of the great museums. More people will probably go to Madrid than go to wherever they would put it. I mean, maybe at the bill at the Guggenheim Bilbao. Do you think all art should be back where it's from? No, that's a great question. That's deep. Trevor, what do you think? You can't throw it back to me. All right, I'll say I'm you said no. I feel like it's not art if it's with its people. I feel like it's art when it's not home. When people get to view something that doesn't belong there and they get to stare at it longer. It happens when people are people watching. I love that. Someone looks unfamiliar. They stare longer. It becomes it has significance when it's not at home. That's why I think it was more at home here because I've been doing my research about and the one part that I missed was the fact that I'm three years late. Oh, yeah. I didn't even. Because Wes. In his think piece did not think to inform me that it's gone. I wait. OK, so I like this for you. So you're saying you don't necessarily think that art should go back to where it's from. Anything exotic. I really like this. I like this. Women, home design, athletes. The way you guys speak about Alker is now is reminiscent of the Spanish bull. Like you guys were saying with. Nadal. Yes, he's foreign. There's no way anyone local would have captured you like this because anything exotic and foreign is always going to be attractive. It's going to be look at this. I look at the Peganes on the for example, and I'm like, what a horrible car. T- drop mirrors, those gen knobs that are metal, the clanky clank. I mean, we buy cars now because they're quiet and you buy that thing because it's loud and there's metal clanking on metal inside with a gear lever. So I'm like, we love it because it's exotic. It's one of a kind and it's foreign. Anything foreign will do. Ice cream is the same. Oh, it's in the lies. It's just not from. OK, OK, wait. So let me think then. Anything foreign. So you want every art to go where it's not from. Yes. Well, wait, there is. There are some complications here. Tell me. Well, I mean, looted art, for instance. What is looted art? The Jews in Austria, Germany, Poland, who had the Nazis came in. Yes, yes, yes. Took all the art. Got it. That got take that wound up in museums. The museums claim, oh, we didn't know. We didn't know the providence of these these great artworks, these clips and, you know, et cetera, et cetera, and these Modigliani's. We didn't know how they how they got here. But that's personally owned. That's theft to me of 100 percent. Yes. To me, looting is more like. But I mean, just like think about let's just but I'm thinking about this is like absolutely philosophically. OK, go, go, go. Yeah, yeah, go. I want to present the maybe the worst case scenario. Sure, what's the difference between looting and booty? That is a very bad question. You're not wrong. You're not wrong, actually. Yes. Just don't loot the booty. Just don't do that. That's no good. So. I like the list. Let's go into the philosophical idea here. So. Arts exists somewhere. Yes. It is held by someone or something. There's a moment in time. It shifts, it moves at whatever's. I think we can break it down into. Wait, let's stop by breaking it down into like a few categories. Right. There are things that have been owned by people directly. Yes. That was stolen from you during a war, during a raid, during a theft. That's just theft. I think we can all agree on that's like theft. Yes. Okay. Looted. Right. No, that's theft. Thift. Okay. Thief. Yes, stolen. What do you think is a class of theft? Yeah, but no. But what I mean is like by looted is let's say somebody goes to. Like Egypt is a great example of this. Yeah, I mean, like let's go to ancient civilizations. Yes, right. One of the big conversations people are having now is should all the Egyptian art that is everywhere in the world be given back to Egypt? No. Now you're saying no again. Okay. I don't. Well, okay. No, but there's an asterisk next to the next to my no, because. I think who's who says, right? Does the Egyptian government say? Do the Egyptian people say, right? Does the Egyptian exhibitor class have a say? Like who makes the decision about where the art that's already like, for instance, at the beautifully redesigned ancient civilizations section to the Museum of Modern or the Metropolitan Museum of Art? Wait, what? Oh, well, how long you guys here? Till Sunday. Okay. Eugene. Yeah. Go to the Metropolitan Museum of Art. And like in the wake of this conversation and keep it in mind. Yeah. As you walk through this, you know, very pristinely renovated portion of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, where all of this great craft work, you know, civilizational craft work, they call them antiques. Antiques. No, we're not doing that. Okay. This is this is art that's just old. No one in their house looked at this and goes, it was old. Right. 300 years ago. No, it's just it's just in the possession. Of a major art collection and therefore blah, blah, blah. But antique implies for sale to me. There's a there's a there's a. Okay, there's a negative connotation. There's a there's a monetary value associated with antique to me. All right. These are these are great craft pieces that both tell the story of a people of a time of a place. They've done a really good job of positioning where in the world and in time, these these pots and tiles and little little tiny statues are from, you know, shields, ceramics, everything, everything, everything. But the question is like like the way we've been talking is just where should Sumerian art go back to? Right. Where where should Babylonian art be returned to? Um, you know, these great Western African pieces, like what nation, what nation they've came to them. Yeah. Right. So in that sense, it's it's funky to say, well, let let the American institution have them because I don't know, they've taken really good care of them at this point. Yeah. Um, the provenance of a lot of these things is really still in question. Right. Like we don't know. We don't we neither we need we know neither the makers names. Or in some cases, how they got in these collections. Well, we know. Sorry. How do I put this? We know by and large, it's a white person who the white person was who went, you know, the stories that these places tell her like, you know, this very rich person like to go off and load up his Jeep with spears and shields and skulls and stuff. And in a moment of absolute generosity, he dumped some of it at the steps of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Exactly. The Smithsonian. Um, so like, like the thing that I love about no matter where the art winds up is responsible institutions will tell a story of where it was and how it got to be where it is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And the sort of the mythos, the mythos of the pieces becomes important to the way the art is framed and positioned to want it back for the sake of having it. Yeah. It kind of only gets you so far with art. Exactly. But I think especially with older art, because there's a story that you're then, I think, responsible for telling. I think art is sometimes meaningless without it being attached to some suffering of some sort. Pieces being stolen and artists that cut off his ear because you were frustrated. Yeah. I mean, you're not wrong. The Mona Lisa is the perfect example. Ever, ever going. It was, it was nothing really, not nothing. Let's, you know, let's calm down Trevor. This is like me. I went to a party once was like, the Constitution's a stupid document. I had like 17 gay men looking at me like, I'm just saying, I think that like, yeah, no, that's not. Following a meant, but anyway, I'm not saying it, I'm not saying it's, but I do find it interesting to exactly what you just said, that the Mona Lisa owes a lot of its fame to the fact that it was stolen. And that begins its journey. Before that, there was no line. There was no famous anything that it was just one of the paintings. But when the painting got stolen, the law of the painting made it what it is today. And so many, many art scholars will sort of argue, you know, obviously there's the mainstream, they'll go like, no, no, this is the Mona Lisa. And it means this and it means that. It means that. And then others will go like, actually, this thing wasn't anything special in that way until it got stolen. And when it got stolen, it became this story of like the greatest art heist and wears this painting and what is the, and why was it stolen? So it's interesting that you say that because sometimes that is, you know, like to come back to like a critic at large, it's like, it's funny how these things are shaped in ways that we often don't look at. Oh yeah. But even art and value and not like when you said that you said these people are generous driving a Jeep, going and picking up spears and shields and dropping them off at a museum. Anonymously. No, no, no. The first thing I think of beyond anonymously is I think to myself, what a brilliant way to create value for your collection. Oh yeah. So if I went somewhere in the world and I found six pieces of ceramic art, wherever I am from 500 years, a thousand, three thousand years ago, what better way to make that, that ceramic collection more valuable than by giving some of it to a museum? Because if I give them three pieces and I keep the remainder, those three pieces can become prominent because they're on display and they get a story told. And then someone will be like, we still wonder where the other pieces are. And then you're like, ah, look who has the other piece. No, well, you create, you can create, you can create value that. And I'm not even saying it in like a conspiracy where I just, you can create. It's the same way artists, big, great artists will have some of the biggest jumps in their prices and their prestige when their art is on display in these museums and in these, in these galleries. The art was already there. Yes. But because it is now in the space, it's hallowed in a different way. But this is now raising these other concerns to me. Like we have not quite settled the question of like, does Egypt get its shit back? No, but he has a question. Actually, you know what, you know what I wonder, this is, I like that you both asked the question through the lens of people, but I didn't hear either of you asked the question through the lens of time. And I think that's actually the more complicated one to answer. Is like, what I mean by this is if your people, your family, your city, your country, your whatever you want to use, have agreed or done something in a different time to you, whose time gets to supersede the other person's time. So this is what I mean. There was a time when the Egyptian government welcomed archaeologists from England who were funded by some rich person who just wanted to have like stuff nobody else had. They paid for all of these expeditions. They paid for the like, they were the ones who were like, yeah, go and do this because we get to benefit from what you're doing in some way. But that's a time. And then you find like today's government, not just of Egypt, of any country might go, no, we want our stuff, but you were given it by another time. And that's where I think it actually becomes more complicated. Yes, 100 percent. Because again, like who adjudicates, who votes? Yes. Like what, you know, I think with respect to time, I think you learned from it. Right? Yeah. You just give the looted stuff back to the people, the descendants of the people from whom it was stolen. But I think maybe we're talking about a statute of limitations. Like there's a statute of limitations and anything. Let's just, let's just, I don't, there could actually be one and I don't know. But I've never heard of these collections spoken of in this way. But like, let's just say that the statute of limitations is like a century. Right? Yeah. There's like beyond a certain point in 1900 with exceptions for looting. And or theft, right? Like outright theft. But that's sort of more of a, that is a sort of interpersonal legal question. Whereas we're talking about kind of international law. Yeah, I'm talking more like a thing that didn't even happen between people per se. Right. I think that a statute of limitations really does kind of make the, make the questions of claim and, and reappropriation a little easier, easier to adjudicate. And so I would say that anything that is in these great museums or even like these small museums, but there, but there, it's work that, that has no known owner. You know, no known maker. Just leave it. And when I was. Sorry to disturb you here. Yeah, no, no. We were talking about houses. Someone was renovating a former school building to become their own personal house. They went antique shopping. They found pieces, decorated house, very beautiful. And myself and Ryan said, if someone buys this house two years from now, they'll look at all of this as trash. They'll be like, what? No. But that person was like, I love these things. These things are so beautiful to me. And here's the thing for me with African art, West African art and all those places and also Egyptian art and like there's two distinct differences that I draw here. West African art and that kind of art, East African art as well. How sure are we that when it was acquired, it was art? It could have been an art and crafts market and the European was working around going, I like this, I like that. I like this. There was no museums. These were things that were used by people. They bought a plate from a flea market. Yes. Yeah. If you bought, if you got yourself as a sailor all those centuries ago, a main dynasty vase, you probably bought it. You don't have to steal it. Right. Where are you going to run to clanking, clanking, clanking with a gigantic ceramic vase? I don't think they were running anyway. Exactly. They just, they just put it in a bag and walk on. And Trevor said it quite well with the Egyptian art. And I think the Egyptian art, even, even the battle of getting the art back does a lot for Egypt and its popularity. Then getting the art, I mean, then getting the, because that is not art that was stolen there. It was stuff from the very. It was craft. It was, it was. Yes. And burial rituals and the mask of Tutankhamun, which I'm a big fan of. I've seen it in a couple of exhibitions. The copy of it is what made me interested in the story of Egypt. I think Tutankhamun as a king, he didn't do much to be lured as a great leader of Egypt. In fact, he wasn't a leader long enough for Egypt. It was just the process by which the mystery of the chariot and the mask and his, and, and, and, and the, and the burial chamber is what attracts me to Egypt. So if anything, it made me realize that there's a great king Khufu who's done far more built the pyramid of Egypt. It's the stories. It's truly the story of the lore of the pieces themselves that, that sort of create an interest, not only in the pieces, because, you know, it's crazy that like, I don't know how I became the person who's now talking about artifacts and museums, because that's the part of the museum. I always skipped, right? I'm just in love with somebody right now who, where that's one of his favorite parts of the museum. No, no, we just met. But give me a second. Um, just give me a second. I can see it. Okay. I can see it. But just hold on. Um, I feel like now I go and I'm really paying attention to all the stuff that I'm asking these questions. Um, I'm much more aware of, or I'm much more unsure of and questioning what the difference is between craft and art, right? There's no doubt, there's no doubt, there's no doubt that these people are artists, right? Yes. I mean, because it's the question around, you know, the way that they, the way that all diasporic black people are sort of talked about what in here's in us and what we had the skill, education, knowledge, um, prolonged experience to do. Right. It wasn't that, you know, for instance, you know, enslaved Africans just were born knowing what to do with soil. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. They had to, this was a cultivated knowledge that took, you know, centuries of studying. Yeah. Learning by trial. Yeah. Um, to figure out. And so I think that the point at which art is in ship yields, can yield the craftsmanship, right? Um, or the, or the places in which craft and art meet sort of where they meet. Those are the places in these, in these artifact collections that I'm fascinated by because the parts stand in for a whole. And you kind of need one, you need these big institutions in some way to have the capacity to have enough pieces to tell a story. Yeah. So I, the reason I love these places now is like, oh, plates, forks, bowls. Yes. But, but I'm like, wait a minute. They had Tuesdays. Yes. They had Thursdays. Like they, they ate with utensils. Yes. Yes. With vessels. And I would love to know what they look like. They took time to paint these, these ceramic bowls. Yeah. You know, like just, there'll be times that I'm sitting and looking at a comb and I'm just like, wow, they took the bone and just, I don't know how you turn a bone into a comb, but like, but they did it. Somebody did it. Don't go anywhere because we got more what now after this. It makes me think of the idea that maybe the mistake we make sometimes in society is we search for a concrete answer that will, that'll exist for all time. But maybe the answers are always shifting. And if we can, if we can get comfortable with that, if we can get comfortable with that, maybe then we'll be better at answering the questions because we understand that the question is not permanent. Trevor, you should, you should just run. Just run. Run away from here. No, because here's, here's why I say this. Okay. That's a good one. Yeah. I love what you just said about stories and arts and the people because let's start with, you know, a simplistic idea of where this, this journey begins. There's a tribe somewhere in Africa. They're making their craft pottery, pottery, plates, whatever they're making jewelry. You know, the Zulu were smelting gold long before Europeans were, et cetera, et cetera. So they're just doing their thing. In Mapungu, whether they're making rhino statues. Exactly. Exactly. So they're just doing their thing. At that point, I would argue a lot of the stuff that they have is not art. I would argue, right? You find some of it is, but I think for the most part, it's just like, it's just the thing that they're making its crafts and they're enjoying it. Then you, you, you, you develop a world where there's now global trade and then obviously pillaging as well. Right. The two coexist at the same time. So some stuff is traded. So the Europeans bring hair dye and they bring different spices and they ding, well, and then they get traded mirrors and whatever people are trading, people are trading. So some things go legitimately. Some things go illegitimately. As in they, as in they're taken. Okay. They go to museums. They exist in different places. Then people's houses, they, you know what I mean? I would argue at the time when Africans are making this stuff originally, it doesn't hold that much value even to African people because they're just making it and they make it at the time. I mean, no, but now, but now it then leaves after a combined period of both trade and pillaging, other people presented in their museums, telling a story, whatever. But I think when Africa is now in a place where the narrative about it is that it can get nothing done. It has come from nowhere. It means nothing. It has no intelligence. It has no advancement. It has no, now all of a sudden that plate, that comb, that statue is no longer just a plate, a comb or a statue. It's now proof that these people whose stories was, whose stories were stolen actually happened. It's now, it's now like, do you get what I'm saying? So now it becomes even beyond art. I can see it now being, you know, like in a civilization. Exactly. And in a perfect world, I would almost argue that a New York museum should go, Hey, we have a bunch of your stuff. But right now the stories that are being told about you are that you've never had stuff. So we're actually going to give you this stuff so that you have an opportunity to showcase to your people and to other people who come to you. The fact that you had stuff. See, I actually think it's the converse of what Eugene's saying. Because I think, I mean, I think both things can be true. I think that a people needs to know its story and it's in the value of the story. Yeah. That the artifacts represent a whole that kind of dignify or re dignify a people. Yeah. I like, re dignify. Yeah. And I also think it is important to advertise the dignity to the world. Damn, that's true. Of these, of these other situations. Because, you know, I just will say as a black American. The, the, the points of pride just to stay in the museum space, right? The idea that some curator thought to put a Horace Pippin painting. Well, no, in the Prado, in the Prado, in Madrid, there are no, there's very little African American art. There's lots of American art, very little art by African Americans. African Americans. There's a Horace Pippin that is just in the, the, the American 20th century art section. Yeah. It's just sitting there next to add Reinhardt and, you know, I don't know, Mel Gustau. And wait, Mel Gustau is a critic at the New York Times. Forget that. You should be there. Like, you should not be there. Like right next to Joseph Stella, right? And there's like Horace Pippin is just like a little tiny or not insignificantly sized Horace Pippin is just among these great white artists. And it just fills you with pride. Like I came all the way over here, didn't need to see any black. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. But here we are just like a great, and it's like, it is a story, you know, I don't remember which one, which, which Pippin is at the Prado, but it's a, or is it a bearded now I'm just all over. You can just say names and I'm going to stay here because I don't know. I don't know the names of any artists. You can actually not horse Pippin is from here. You can call it, you can say Judith, you can say Arnold, you could, I'm just going to be like, mm-hmm. There's a great Romero Bearden that lives at the Prado. And it's just there among all these great artists and these great white American artists, but he's just to the Prado, an American artist. Yes. Right. They're not like the great black artist, you know, Romero Bearden. He's just like, this guy's the same as everybody else in this room. They, we probably don't, we might know he's full. I mean, at the museum, they know, but like they're not, that's not the story they're telling. The painting tells the story. But I think there's a real power in letting these, like, I guess the sort of literary poetic term is like, like it's a metonym. It's like a piece that can stand in for the whole. And that piece signifies something to everybody who bothers to go look in the, look in the vitrines and, you know, like me, who skipped it for years and now like, you know, I want to talk about Indonesian art. Let's just talk about it because I didn't have any feelings 10 minutes ago, but I got a lot of feelings now because I spent two hours just walking around looking in these cases. I have a lot of questions. Is that, is that why, is that why Trump and his people are so adamant about? Trevor, you know the answer. No, no, no, I don't necessarily know the answer. I never assume that I know the answer. You have a sense. Yeah, but that doesn't mean I know it. But complete your thoughts. Sorry, I know that. We might get, we might get further together is we talk about the world of art and, you know, these museums, they're very hoity-toity, you know, very like most people would go like, ah, who cares and who doesn't. I found it particularly interesting that like Trump and his close cohorts took a special interest in museums. On day one, basically. I was like, this is such a, who cares world is what people often say. I was like, why does he care about this so much? Why does he care so much about what the exhibits are? And more importantly, what the exhibits say. I think you have the answer. Do you get what I'm saying? No, but, but what it made me realize is as much as people, you know, will roast Trump and maybe his people for being uncultured and uncouth and I was like, what do they realize about art and its power that a large swath of the population doesn't you get what I'm saying? Oh, 100%. Most of the time when people have conversations about museums and galleries and people are like, who, art is such a niche. But for Trump on day one to go, yo, museums, we need you. He's not saying my kid could do that. He's saying this shit is powerful. That's what I mean. And it needs to be stopped. Right. And you know what's crazy? I don't know if you remember this. He went to the Smithsonian's National Museum of African American History and Culture, like the month after the inauguration, got a tour from Lonnie Bunch, like who's now the, who now is the director of the entire Smithsonian system. And he left the tour and like gave remarks and was like, you know, this was some powerful shit. I don't think I saw everything, but I'm going to come back and everybody needs to see this because this is a very important American story. This is very important. And, you know, there's a lot to be proud of here, but, you know, there's still, I mean, I'm now paraphrasing, but like there's a lot of work to do. And this museum is an important part of that work. Lonnie, I salute you. This museum is a real success. Wow. I can't wait to get back to your point. The question isn't why is he doing this now? The, the, I mean, you kind of, you were right, Trevor, like he's doing it because he already knows the power. Now the question, the real question. I love the fact that because I didn't know that part of the story. Yeah. I only knew. No, I only knew the part where like Trump very recently said, hey, National Museum of African American History and Culture, you guys get a, you guys better get your shit together and stop being so anti-whites. Right. That's like basically the, the mandates. He was like, you are very, very anti-whites. And the way you make it seem like slavery was just white people. It's not cool, man. Who else? It's not cool. But now the way you tell the story, but the way you tell the story now almost feels more like it's weird that like what he was like walking through this museum. I have been thinking about this. Like what was he doing when he was, do you get what I'm saying? I really have been thinking about this. And I don't know, I don't know what, you know, there's a, there's a kind of person who just doesn't have the patience to try to sit in his brain to figure it out, but I want to. Like I'm not scared to be in there. Right. Like I have a shower and that works. I, but I think that because I do think that to the extent that he is like no other American, he also is quintessentially deeply. Like inexorably. Like the apotheosis of America. The what? The apothe, like the, the sort of ultimate example. Wow. Yeah. Damn. Apotheosis. Quintessential no in some ways because quintessential implies. That there's something to measure you against. Well, preservable. Like worth, worth, like this is the quint, this is like the absolute essential. Now I could be displacing my own feelings about my own word choices. I would not use quintessence, quintessence or quintessential to, to describe Donald Trump unless we're like talking about the, like the quintessential cheeseburger eater. Right. My wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. You went from the burger to a cheeseburger eater. He really went along with you. This guy just said the quintessential cheeseburger eater. Okay. I'm going to use that for somebody. You've just got to walk past somebody. We're having him here and be like, well, well, well, if it isn't the quintessential cheeseburger eater. Oh my goodness. Who isn't the hamburger? Oh man. It can't be the hamburger. A burger. Wow. But I think that like he is like, he is the apotheosis of this country in many ways. Right. Okay. He is, he is the, he is a very good example. There are lots of like great Americans. Trump is Trump at the end of the day, no matter what you say is, is one of the great Americans in, in like the purest sense of the word great. Like it is, it is enormous. It is vast. It has great capacity to contain lots of aspects, things, ideas, moments. Wow. Um, and I think, Oh God, like in his mind to just be in there for a second. You know, to listen to him talk about the things he thinks he deserves, the Nobel Peace Prize, um, Mount Rushmore, Mount Rushmore, the Kennedy Center honor. There's a world in which I think, depending on like how, depending on what the Smithsonian body chooses to do in response to the threat, I think there's a world in which, you know, forget the presidential library. Like one of those museums becomes his, right? And it is filled with, with, with not just his version of American history, but the history of him, right? Key thinks, I mean, it's, I don't, I can't recall a person who simultaneously, you know, I'm not a historian. Like I'll let like the Smithsonian staff like come at me when I say this, um, because they would know better than I would. But I can't think of a living person of that level of prominence with that degree of power who also simultaneously knows nothing about history, but also has a deep understanding that he is making it as he goes. That's fascinating. What a conundrum. Right? Yeah. And so he, I'm going to say he doesn't like that history, not only because it defaces white people, like, like blames white people. It's that he honestly can't imagine himself in that story. He can literally say he never owned slaves, right? He can say he never enslaved anybody. He can't say he never rented to a black person. He can't say, he can't say I, I, I never, he can't say I never didn't. Right. He can't say I never denied a whole, you know, there are lots of things he can't say he didn't do. He can't imagine himself. He cannot, he can't, he doesn't have the empathy to understand the degree to which or he's denied himself access to an empathy because he, he performed it once. He went on that tour and came back and was like, works for me. So I think you might be a little more generous in your reading of him than I would. Probably, probably. I am, I. No, no, I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. I, the thing that's in many ways scares me more with Donald Trump is. I feel like he is completely shaped by the people he is with at any given time. That's true. That is true. That is true. That is true. That is true. That is true. And so I think. It feels true. His worldview in any given moment can change depending on who is next to him telling him the story. Now someone will go, no, but he's been pretty consistent. He hasn't really been. He's in fact, he's shown these blips of inconsistency that, that like one of them was like one of them was, do you remember when there was that bombing in Syria? I've got to get more specific, but it was the image of a kid who his face was covered in white ash and dust. And it was this image of this young boy in an ambulance and this picture went around the world. And that's when Trump was like, he launched a strike against Syria. Do you remember? And people, this is the first term and he was very proudly even then saying, we're never, we're not going to get involved. I was like, we're not fighting, no fights for us, nothing for us, not getting involved. And then he launched a strike, right? And then they said to him, what changed? And he said, Ivanka showed me a picture of the little boy. So sad, little boy, no, but that little boy. And I remember at the time, a lot of people were like, oh, he doesn't care. And I was like, no, no, no, he did in that. It's a weird thing, but he did because Ivanka showed him the picture. Right. It's the same way he didn't tell the line. Do you remember when the images were coming out from Palestine of the children starving and then Netanyahu was like, no, no, no, these images are fake. This is not a thing. There's not someone showed it to Trump. And then he, they asked him and he's like, he's like, those are real. I know, start. That's real. You can't lie about that. It's terrible. It's terrible. And it completely went against his position quotes unquote. And you see it with all of these things. Like I've seen Trump. I'm sorry. You've seen these moments. When Trump gets surrounded by like, let's say, the heads of HBCUs or something. Oh, well, the famous. Yes. Yeah. Trump is in a room with the famous people and they're telling him something. Trump will walk out of that room and he'll be like, what has happened to African and their terrible, terrible times and we got to fix it. We got to change it. We got to fix it. And people go, oh, but then he doesn't do it. And I'm like, yeah, but I know this sounds crazy. If you took his administration and just replaced it with like, yes, the Obama, the Obama people. Yes, we would be we would be in a different situation. But that's what I mean, because I found every time, because remember, the HBCU presidents visit him. So they don't stay with him. What is the HBCU? Historically, Black colleges and universities. Spelman, Howard, you know, Fisk. I mean, many, many others. He's like, they were the famous moment. And I believe 2017. Yeah. Where all of these was it 2017? Where all of, you know, the presidents and chancellors of all these historically Black colleges and universities are going to the White House for what they think is just like a, like a, like a visit. And at some point they, I don't know how this happens to people, but it happened. It apparently happens a lot. They're going for a visit and then all of a sudden they're walking down a hall and a door opens and they're in the Oval Office. Yes. And these 20 something, like very senior, very executive oriented, Negro people find themselves in a, in the Oval Office with Donald Trump. It's who is, you know, ready to take a picture. I don't, the meeting did not occur in the Oval Office. This is a photo opportunity and there's a very famous photo of these people standing around, some of them looking really like. Yeah. What just happened? Are you? What? And Donald Trump, it's an amazing photo because Donald Trump is standing at the desk and just looking so pleased with himself. Like, I got him. I got him. Look at this photo. It's amazing. I can dine out on this photo for four years. And the composition of it is great. Like his tie clears the debt. It's just an amazing image. But to your point, like if those people were also suddenly, if they also found out that day, by the way, guys, guess what? You've got new jobs. You're no longer going to be heads of these elite universities, these great black American institutions. You're working in Trump administration. Good luck. I actually think if those, if the people who found themselves, I mean, I guess that's slavery actually. That actually is. Thank you. I was just like, surprise. One minute people were walking. The dogs were there. The next day. They're in a show. They're important, powerful people. That's exactly. The next minute they're working for some white man forever. But let's say in this instance. But let's just say in this instance, like they signed a document and there was a paycheck involved and they had. That's what I'm saying. No, but they sweetened the deal, whatever. Just let's play Twilight Zone for one second. Like how different what things have been, according to your theory of his impressionability. Would it have been if you had had, you know, a room full of black men and women helping him advise the country instead of Stephen Miller? Yes. I'm down. I'm down to find out. But I'm not that down because this is no, but this has been cast. But no, but this is. But this is what I'm trying to say is like strange about him in that way is that I don't think that Donald Trump holds any values beyond Donald Trump. OK. So. He said many times, if you like me, I like you. He says it very simply. Doesn't matter what you say about him in the past. If you just cool with him now, he's cool with you. He like, well, this is. He brushes it away like quite quickly, actually, because it's almost like wrestling to him. He's like, no, no, let's keep it moving. Let's keep. I understand that plot's done and now we can move on, right? But but I love that you you said he is the say that word again. The apotheosis of apotheosis of America. Because in many ways I would argue like an apotheosis. I would argue that like he's an apotheosis of most people in that. He holds the ideas of the people who are closest to him. And he feels that those are the most important ideas. And so I argue if Mar-a-Lago was predominantly black, if the golf clubs that he was in and around were predominantly Hispanic, if the places where he was, think think of the small things that Trump has revealed, right? He said immigration, I don't want it. But then he went, well, except for, of course, like. Satan is all my all the people in my life who I know. Right. No, no, no. But then he said he said, but I'm not not I'm not talking about sommeliers. No, no, he said he didn't say some of his I'm saying some of his. He said he called them wine choosers or something like that. I don't know if you remember that actually. Wait, what was this? No, no, no. He said that was like second term right now. Now like he said it. Oh, man, he didn't say sommeliers because I remember correcting it in my head. But he said wine choosers. Yeah. He said some wine waiters, wine choosers. What did he say, Ryan? It was wine. You got to find out the people who work on the. He's not talking about the actual. No, no, no. He's talking about the person who comes to you and helps you select your wine. I know that for a fact. The wine picker. But you could see it was so interesting that in his head, the good type of immigrant is the one that he encounters all the time who brings him his food and his wine. And he's like that immigrant should stay, of course. But the one that he sees on Fox News and on his social media, crossing a border and then killing a family, he's like that one mustn't come in. You hear what I'm saying? Yeah, of course. And so like I, the reason I say that he is he's a great apotheosis in that way is it's very seldom that a country is run by somebody who is swayed as much as the average citizen of that country is swayed. The only difference is they have so much power. Right. Exactly. Like that, like that, that thing always gets me with Trump is where I go like, man, just you just get him in the right room in the right. You know who knows this? Almost all the leaders in the Middle East. Well, this was Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. And Europe too, right? They know you get him in the room. The man will come out and all of a sudden he'll say something slightly different to what he said coming in because he's had time with you. But the problem is like talk about shaking an Etch-a-sketch. It's so easy to shake his Etch-a-sketch. Yes. Right. His Etch-a-sketch gets shaken every day. Yes. And somebody somebody's always gotten the knob. So to speak. I just but see the problem with that. I mean, what you're saying is I believe that that is a very cogent way of thinking about Trump. But then there is, I mean, the part that does feel like he is like a metaphor in action is that it never amounts to anything because he's also so aware of his own. If he understands the value of anything, it's him. Yes, definitely. And so it's never like, you know, I'm for immigration because my homie from Wharton, you know, came up from Chile to get an education just like me. It's never, no one has ever equaled to him. He's never, he's rarely has an equal. His equals are, you know, Putin, Kim, Kim Jong-un. Yeah. I mean, but even or or conversely, you know, in the business world, right? Like who are the people, he's never really aspiring to be Steve Jobs. No. His, I mean, he's never said this, but I mean, he's much closer to like the obvious people like a like a like a Goddy or something like that. I mean, those are the and those would be that's a that's an applicable model to to an aspect of his governance, which is, you know, using a kind of threat tactic, bullying tactic to get people to just yield. Strong arm. Or give him what he wants. But you know, and then but these never sort of make their way into policy, right? It's not like the whispering in the ear for good things ever results in, you know, more housing for But I'm saying it's because they're not around enough. Right. And I mean that honestly, I believe that. I genuinely think they just not like you can't do it in one meeting and you're not going to be around him for more than long enough. But the people who were around him long enough. And I think that's why there's so much infighting around him amongst his own people to get other people away from him. So Steve Bannon fights with Steven Miller and then that person fights with that person. Because they know. Once you've got his ear. If you can keep his ear. Yeah, you keep his ear. You've got his power. But if you if it's like that's why the Elon Musk thing threw everyone off because it's like Elons were spring this other people were spring that Elon. And then he's like, I like Elon, but I hear this about him. But at the same time, I also think Elon's allowing. Wasn't there 24 hours a day. And he was it. He was when he had the most power. Right. Right. Right. There was a point where there was a point where he was at Mar-a-Lago 24 seven. He was basically living there. He was around Trump. But he had to doge. You see. And doge was work. And it meant he had to actually go to these agencies. There you go. And when he was out doging. Then now someone's whispering in Trump's ear. Yo, man, what's up with this Elon guy? He was out doging. Yeah, when he's out doging. But listen, I don't I don't want to spend all the time talking about Trump because everyone does. But he is like a fascinating cultural. Oh yeah, he's the figure. Right. Because he's the defining cultural figure for now. No, I mean. And so it is he is fascinating to talk about even though there is a kind of danger in. You can't forget the other things that that figureheadness is is is also doing. Right. And that's always the sort of moral tension among discussants when it comes to Trump. Like also, yes, keep in mind, though, that like there are people being disappeared. Keep in mind, though, that he's about to take over another American city with a predominantly with a significant black population. So I don't know. It's tough. I'm a person who loves to try to figure out and unpack. Cultural figures, including presidents, but you know, it kind of runs aground. I mean, for instance, you know, I wouldn't have spent I didn't spend very much time talking about George W. Bush during his presidency, although there was because there was so because also there was so much culture around that presidency, like responding to it in real time. There's no culture. He is a culture. Right. Oh, that is true. There's no there's no filmmaking that is like responding to this presidency. Yeah. First or second. How could you people are terrified? I think what I mean people, I mean, like the money is terrified. I don't mean like the people. Oh, yes. But what's interesting is these things have a way of happening anyway. Anyway, yes. Right. So I think that's really fascinating that like the horror movie is like the most interesting things happening at the movies in at least in this country involve horror, right? Involve, you know, the un like the darkest grimace and not just like, you know, there's a crazy person at the door, but like there are mysterious things happening that don't seem to make a lot of sense. And it's interesting to me that like our death drive is on the charts, right? Like I am obsessed with the fact that die with a smile. This lady Gaga Bruno Mars song that won't die is called like is still in the top 10. It is as of this as of our conversation right now. It is number 10. It has been in the top 10 for a year. Like when we were kids, songs didn't last. You're lucky if you got a song to last in the top 10 for a week. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So the idea that you've had a song that's been in the top 10 for a year, like it probably more than a year at this point is just mind blowing to me. And maybe it's not more than a year, but it's definitely almost a year. And it's about like, you know, I'd rather like, you know, it's coming back to me. The melody just hit me. Just what just like washed over me. You don't have to deal with this. I don't know if you're doing the Grammys this year, but you don't have to deal with this song. I really thought that was the lyrics of this song. It was last year's cycle. I thought that was the lyrics of this song. I was like, no. All right. I was like, no. No. I think it's just fascinating to me that that song is about not about like spending the rest of my life with you, not about like, but you know, if I get like, you know, another bit of time with you, I will die with a smile. Like it's just a, it's a beautiful sentiment, but it's just telling the song is called die with a smile. I'm kind of a literal minded person. You put it, you put it on a plate like that. I'm, I'm going to put my fork in it. Don't press anything. We've got more. What now after this? I wonder then when, so when you see that, that's what I mean about like how you see these things and how you think about them. Going back to what you said about horror movies, I don't think I would think about that just off the bat. But we do have to ask ourselves why certain things are more popular when they are and what they're tapping into, when they're tapping into it. Like, you know, there's, there's more obvious ones that you can see in hindsight, like movies, like Rambo and all of those things. America was telling itself a story and it needed to tell itself the story and it did it successfully, you know, and even in like the cartoons and stuff like that. Like when I think of like Popeye, Popeye was telling me a story, you know, and, and, and domestic violence. Who was our blue dough, blue and olive oil. Oh no, no, I thought you were saying Popeye. I was like, Popeye hit olive. I was like, damn, bro, which ones did you watch? That's right. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, but I mean, but I'm saying the story. Almost certainly blue dough. And human trafficking. No, but if you look at the stories. I was going on in Popeye. Superman, the stories that Superman was telling, you know, and it is interesting. So now when I'm, when I'm thinking through your brain, I go, huh, it's fascinating to look at when Superman movies come back and when they don't, when they do well and when they don't. And it's like, there's a moment when America is telling a story about itself being exceptional. And fighting the Russians and fighting communism. Superman's the thing. And then that story like fades away. Superman fades away. And then the Superman that becomes popular and comes out is like a gritty, non-superman-y Superman. That's the Trump. That's the first Trump Superman. Yeah. That's like the, and then now the, now the, the American Superman sort of thing is like back and the parents are even more folksy and the, you know what I mean? It's like, it's, it's interesting to think about like what we're experiencing in our world. And then the question, then the question becomes, is the art imitating life or is life imitating art? Like, you know? I think that, that art has a weird way of corresponding to moods. Because the people that make this stuff are basically us, right? Like they have the same neuroses or like not dissimilar neuroses. Part of the problem truly with the movies right now is that I think there aren't enough geniuses who don't, who aren't like us to show us like how we, how we could be, right? Oh, damn. Yeah. Or to like, to like elevate. Well, I think that, talk about, like we're talking about, we never really quite got to the bottom of the name thing. But the, there is a way in which because Hollywood is no longer making as many movies as it used to, just to stick with the movies. Because the movies are an important, talk about a thing that you put in a museum to tell a story of a people and its priorities and who it was. Like, like the movies are the museum in action, right? Like a, like a video store when we had them, those were museums of, of world civilization. It was time traveling. Right. But it was both, it was both that and artifacts of, of people. And without them, it's really hard to know. It, well, not really hard because we've got this whole, I would say quarry of social media, right? Where like, you could, you could dig through there to find that one chunk of marble that like is worth keeping, but there's just a lot of rocks in there. But the movies are this kind of like determined, like cultivated art form where even when they suck or like don't have aspirations to greatness still wind up telling you a story. They do. It's, it's, it, and it feels true. And I think that we are no longer, we are so addicted now to whatever it is the superhero gives us in terms of a feeling of, of, I'm giving these movies more credit than they probably even need, but like there might be something here about the way these movies make us feel as a people. Yeah. Right. Like it's great to watch these people stop the world from ending over and over and over and over and over and over and over. And what no longer happens is regular people no longer exist in this world. Right. Oh, wow. Like there's a world in which I for as strange as I found Clark Kent's parents in this new Superman movie, I was kind of fascinated by how these two people raised that. Yeah. They play? No. You'd have heard about that. This boy not. You'd have heard about that. You know you would have heard about it. Thought we got an aerial. Yeah. You got stuck with Aaron. That's as good as it's going to get. But I think that, you know, I grew up in a time and this is not a nostalgia. This is not a, this is not nostalgia that I'm talking about. It's, it's the value of storytelling, which is not a nostalgic observation, but you got a really robust menu of stories, even when they didn't explicitly feature people who were black, were Asian, were gay. You got stories that were human enough to trick you into thinking that you were Molly Ringwald. Right. Could trick you into thinking you were Clint Eastwood for as problematic as that even is. Right. You would be seduced into identifying with lots and lots of different people who did not wear a cape. You're right. It's almost like the certain parts of making a movie that have been removed. The kitchen, the dining table, the couch and the TV, the remote, holding the remote, the driveway, the garage, the car have all been removed. And those were the things, the bicycle lying in the driveway, you know, and the lawn and the, and the sidewalk. Those things have been removed to make movies more efficient. And if you look at old movies, those things were always there. Always. Yeah. Even when they looked fake, right? They were still present. I always say the first time I experienced a beer in cinema was through cinema. When someone just opens a can of beer after coming back from work and holding a six pack. He told the story. For the longest time, I never thought you drank beer cold. So when you see commercials, the beer is cold. You're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. After a long hard day's work, you take a six pack and then then I experienced a hangover and I'm like, how do you go to work tomorrow after drinking six warm beers? So all of that has been removed. You're right. A real human being and the aspirations that a normal human being would want to have of having somewhere to go to and somewhere to depart from have been removed. They don't exist anymore. Looking through a window has been removed. Yeah. I mean, well, I mean, because you now have these giant like hangers where all the action takes place, right? Like they call them headquarters. I mean, they could there's this giant sound stages that seem like sound stages in the movies themselves. And so I don't know. I just I'm not saying I want more farm movies, but there was a value to watching Sally Field try to keep her farm from going under, which is a kind of movie that happened every week. Like Jessica Lang, Sally Field, there was a there was a farm movie a week with some great white woman trying to keep the farm going. And Danny Glover was on every single one of them being like, I got you. But you know, I'm going to help. You know, it's funny you just say that you said that now. I do think there's something powerful in that imagery and what story it tells us. Because let's think of like, you know, like Danny Glover and that type of story. Lethal weapon. Oh, here's a great example. Do you know what I mean? Lethal weapon or die hard or any of those types of movies. As much as these people are quote unquote professionals, there was also like a very every manness to the story. You spend so much time in Danny Glover's house once they realize that that was a real relationship between Mel Gibson and Danny Glover. Exactly. You got to know his family. That's exactly what I mean. But what to what you just said now, which I've never considered is you don't have that with the Avengers. No, you really don't. You know what I mean? Their family only exists as a device to give them an origin story. But beyond that, we don't see like why this is their family or who these people are, who they mean to them or how they shape them or how they. But what it does more importantly is I think of the effect that it has on us in in questioning or even imagining where safety comes from. Yeah. You get what I'm saying? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Think of how if you if you just grow up now watching like that's good. No, but think about it. If you grew up if you grew up watching like Rambo or if you grew up watching like that that era of movies, Die Hard, you believed that you as an individual could make an outsize influence in the world. I don't care if a band of terrorists has taken over a building. You can do something about it in your tank top and bare feet. You can indeed. But you can do something about it. And then Avengers comes along and it's like, listen, listen, all you are going to do is be in your office screaming. That's your only role. And then Superman or Hulk or whoever DC or going to destroy your office. Yeah. But all your only role is to scream and run and then pray Superman swoops you off the ground before the thing falls on you and pray that, you know, storm creates a little tornado to protect. But that's your only role. They don't even like help the superheroes. There's not even like a thing where it's like, if it wasn't for you, people of earth, this wouldn't know. Like y'all wouldn't be anything without your job is to have your hot dog caught that gets blown up. And all you do is run away. Your job is to have your car fall off a bridge and then that superhero comes and lifts it and holds the bridge and then you get out with your family. That's your only purpose. But that's us turning everything over to these powers. But that's what I mean. But I'm like, you don't you don't think of the power of that because and I'm sure some people watch this and be like, come on, man, movies. But one of the best analyses that was like like of sociology was the Eddie Murphy special when he talked about Rocky. Do you remember that bit? Oh, yeah. And he talked about like what it did for like white working classmates. Yo, Rocko! And I think it was very astute. It made a lot of people who were like, oh, that's me. I'm a quote unquote nobody. But you know what? I'm a somebody. I could come to a draw in a ring with Leon Spinks. Just let me. Just let me. All I got to do is run up our museum steps and beat up a couple of like a hanging, hanging cut of beef. Side of beef. Let me let me at Leon Spinks. I will fuck and fuck him up. Yeah, but that's powerful. We take the grunts of how powerful that is. I mean, just think about what it takes for people of at least my parents generation. But I mean, really anybody who grew up as a non-white person in a society of oppression, right? Yeah. You grew up in the Jim Crow South. You grew up in apartheid South Africa. And you get these stories that are asking you to spend some time with white people who don't ostensibly have anything to do with your situation. But it's a story about somebody trying to overcome something. Somebody trying to somebody caught in a plot that they need to get solved by the end of the hour and 40 minutes. You are suddenly forgotten about your situation and you have completely invested your hour and 40 minutes into this other person situation. And there's a world in which some of the images from this experience, whether it's like terrible, like the movie itself is not very good. It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Because you're wrapped up in a story. And maybe by the end you're like, this doesn't really work. But what you did was you watched an avatar for your own self in some way go through something that you couldn't imagine going through until you do you think I ever thought for one second that Bruce Willis, like I never thought once about trying to save people from a from a hijacked skyscraper. Never once. You've tried to help them from someone blocking them from viewing art. And that's about it. That is a super heroic act that a regular person can do every day. But the power of the movies, big and small, is like when they're focused on what regular people are dealing with and going through, you just you learn something about how to be in the world. There were no CEOs in movies. Well, they were just regular working guys. There was a really robust. Here's another aspect of this. To your point about Die Hard, there was a whole moment in the 80s that you probably remember because I know you saw these movies where like every week you'd get some young person who thought they could do a better job making money than the people who went to Princeton do it. Like Working Girl, Secret of My Success. These movies came out all the time or they were like the descendant. They were the children of these people like Ferris Bueller's Day Off, the story of a yuppies kid who just decides I'm going to act like my dad all day and I realized I'm acting like my dad all day. That day was. Yeah. You hated it. I loved it. Oh, you loved it. Okay, good. We should try to recreate it. Wait, you and me? Yeah, I mean, you can bring a friend or two and then we could have the longest day ever in Ferris Bueller. Exactly. What would it look like for a bunch of like old men to do Ferris Bueller? I think, I don't know, but I feel like. That's your broad rig, right? Yeah, just like he would take, I mean, he's actually, didn't he do a Ferris Bueller commercial or something? He did, yeah. As his old self, as his regular current self? No way. Yeah, he did it. But that's the other thing, right? Like we have given the keys to our civilization over to, I'm going to say, the algorithm to decide. Right? Like these executives who make our movies don't care about telling stories that reflect the lives that we are living currently. They care about mergers. They care about like making sure that I don't actually know what they care about, but I can tell you what they don't care about because we don't get it. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I'm not saying I want places in the heart every week, but I wouldn't mind it now. Right? Yeah, I was thinking the other day, I don't know how long it'll be before we see another movie like Forrest Gump in the cinema. Oh my God. That's a great for example. That's like, that's an example of a film where I go, I don't know a single person who could watch Forrest Gump and not find themselves somewhere in the story. I don't care who you are. That story touches everyone. It touches everything. It touches race, class, disability. It touches war. It touches capitalism. It touches, it doesn't matter what it is. It goes everywhere. Yeah, but it's about going everywhere. Exactly. And can that story exist today? And someone might go, oh, but who cares? And I'm like, yeah, but if you look at it on the smallest level, do you remember what you would do as a kid when you were done watching a movie? You'd watch it again. You would enact everything you see. You would enact everything. You would go, I'm going outside. Would watch it again. Where's was a critic? Where's was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. There's like a five-year-old critic. What was that? He's like, I want to know how that works. Run it back. Where's was like a five-year-old critic at large. Right. All right. This time, this time I'm making notes. I was watching movies that you probably shouldn't be reenacting. Oh, damn. When I was 11, I saw fatal attraction like three times in the movie theater. So guess what I'm not doing. So you don't want to know how much I mean, don't watch Sharon Stone doing the leg cross game. So now, yeah, but what I'm saying is like, what you would do is you would go out and want to be. You would try the kick. Goonies is a great example of that for instance. You would go on the adventure. You would imagine yourself to your point in that world, or you would imagine that that world could happen to you. And so as we look at the shift of storytelling, you know, when you tie all of these threads together, the museum, the story that is telling you of you, and the possibilities that you and your people may contain, movies, it's exactly the same thing. It's like, yeah, names. It's telling you the story of you, the possibilities that you contain. And then within that framework, you now act. You now, I just remembered something I wanted to ask you, and I wondered how this fits into everything. Why do you think it is that so many critics at large, you know, whether they focused on fashion or art or whatever, why do you think so many of them were black men? What do you think it is? No, genuine question. No, I'm thinking about this because there's also Margot Jefferson, who is a great American critic and memoirist, a black woman. I think it really, I mean, I'm like, we should name who were some of the people we might be talking about, like Hilton Alles, Vincent Cunningham, Margot, of course, some other great person that I'm not remembering at the moment. But basically, I think, well, I mean, I think there's like an innate curiosity about, like you get trained to be curious, right? Like, I mean, if you have the luxury of being able to think broadly about things, or like making these connections, because so much of, I mean, a lot of my life was really about, like my childhood anyway, it was my mother sort of encouraging me to just think for myself, right? Like, if you've got a question, you go find the answer, because I actually don't know it. So you'll have to look it up and there was no internet. So I would, you know, I became very good at encyclopedias, for instance, which is where you got the answers to these questions if you had them. I think a lot of the people that we're talking about are basically the same age, but I also think, I mean, I'm younger than those guys, but I also, well, Vincent is younger than I am, but I think that you, there is something about seeing things and wanting to be free enough to not just ask a question, but like to connect them to something else. And also, it's like, it's a little dissatisfying, because you learn this, I was a movie critic for a long time. And you realize, at least in my practice, that I was spending a lot of time doing critic at large work anyway, because movies are a fascinating art form because they already incorporate so many other art forms to exist. I mean, there is, you know, the visual, the audio, the compositional, right? They have to be written, hopefully. I mean, more than typed, you hope you got a screenplay that was written and not just typed. There's the fashion, what the people are wearing. There's the costumes, there's the soundtrack or the score. There's so many, I mean, architecture. There's just an opportunity if your eye is open to making these connections among all these different disciplines and art forms that are being assembled and harnessed to tell, you know, any kind of story. And these are things that you frequently, as a moviegoer, you just take for granted. But I learned at some point, for instance, I usually stay for all the, I worked at a movie theater for a number of years, and I would have to stand at the back of the theater while people left and watch the credits. Well, what were you doing at the movie theater? I was an usher. Oh, wow. Yeah, I was an usher from like 16 to 19. Wait, so what did you do back then as an usher? Because I feel like ushers have changed over the years in movie theaters. Like, what was your job? I was making the ticket and showing them. Rip a ticket. Like, if it was an older person or a disabled person, I would take them to their seats. You'd wait at the back of the theater for the first 15 minutes of every show to make sure the picture was right. Doesn't happen anymore. Oh, no, I'm like, where were you? You know how many movies are blurry these days? And I'm like, oh, wait, I didn't even know there was someone who was supposed to do something about that. I go and report. And now I didn't like doing it in the old days because when something was wrong, there was one projectionist, at least in Boston, where I lived for a while, who, and you know, that person might get in trouble if something was wrong. But then, and I, you know, there are a lot of things to be happy for James Cameron for. One of them that's not so great is that like that momentary advent of three day. That was terrible. Which changed projection, right? It helped change projection. I'm going to blame James Cameron and Avatar, but it could have been some, some other thing. I don't, I don't blame him. I blame the people chasing the money behind him because Avatar did it for real, for real. Oh, it did do it for real. And then everyone else was just like, it's 3D and it's like, no, it's not. But they, but they were two pictures, man. But Trevor, they would leave the lenses on. They would leave the three. That's what it was. They would leave the man. Some theaters would leave the 3D projector on for 2D movies or the lens that you needed to flip off. For a 2D movie. So, I mean, there's a lot of things about the movie going to experience this suck. But like my job back in the day with a film print was just to make sure the picture was straight. The sound was good. There were no issues with the print. And then I cleaned the bathroom. A lot of bathroom cleaning. Spent a lot of time cleaning the bathroom. What's the worst bathroom to clean? Men or women? Great question. Women easily. That's the worst. Oh my God. I've had horrible stories. Ellen DeGeneres. One of Ellen DeGeneres' greatest bits. Oh, I thought, you know what? I didn't know where this story was going. I thought you were going to say Ellen DeGeneres uses female bathrooms all the time. I dare you. I thought he was going to say Ellen DeGeneres took a dump. So, like, I didn't know where that was going. I didn't know where that joke was, where that story was going. Or he went to you. He went like, women bathrooms are the worst. Ellen DeGeneres. No, Ellen DeGeneres never came to the Ritz at the Borsch where I worked for a bunch of years. But Ellen DeGeneres informed, I was doing this bathroom work before I saw Ellen DeGeneres' great bit about her own questions about what is going on in the ladies room. And she, at some point, is like, I went into the ladies room and I just thought that a bomb had gone off in here except the dirtiest bomb of all time. This is like from like the late 80s probably. I thought it was cleaner. Oh, no. And she's like, when I go in there and I see what's on the walls and on the floor, I'm like, where are these ladies doing? Like, and then she's like, do they go into the, what are they using? The disabled bars in the disabled stall to not sit on the toilet? Because that's what I did. And I'm swinging around doing a high bar routine in the ladies room. And then I think the punchline is like, so I got down and I looked around what I did. And I was like, oh, this explains it. Oh, this is why they're in such bad shape. All the women going in there doing gymnastics. Any place with a Q and high foot traffic can never be clean. Also, I just, I don't know why. Okay. Because I assumed, you know why? Because whenever I'm in a man's bathroom, it's always, there's always pee on the floor. It's always sticky for some random reason. Yeah, no random reason. That reason is not random. Don't go spreading lies on this podcast. There's no random reason why the floors are sticky. So, so I would always go like, this is disgusting. Surely the other side can't be worse because I went, people aren't just like peeing on the floor the way the men are. Now you've just blown my mind because I've never worked in cleaning men's and women's toilets. So, yeah, the women didn't even want to clean the women's room. Damn. Like, I mean, that's how, I mean, it was, you know, I worked with, I mean, I'm, Loden was one of the women who worked. She just, Loden would never clean. She would refuse. She wouldn't do it. She's also was too cool. That was one of the coolest people I've ever worked with. Joe Novak, Fritz, we wound up cleaning the, the, and Greg. Oh man, I loved Greg. Anyway, yeah, it's like, why do you even ask a question like that? Because, because whenever I talk about it, I really, that's how I remember it, was I can't believe the women's room. No, that's what I wanted to know. Yes. So, but my question is, where does this model high horse come from when you live with a woman and should always criticize our bathroom etiquette, when their public stalls look like that? That's what I, maybe that's also another thing. Because like, that would be like a thing that maybe even my mom would say, yeah, it would be like, oh, it's like a men's toilet in here. At school, they used to say something similar as well. But I don't know. I mean, now I'm hearing it, Derek. I mean, this was like a big conspiracy theory. I'll never be told again to put the seat down. Well, this is wild. I, I don't. But I interrupted you. Sorry, let's go back. So we were in the movies, you're in this world. You are, your job is to make sure that everything works. Yes. Rewinding to that. Sorry, I took us off everybody. No, that's fine. I mean, I now I'm curious about the mail that you guys are going to get about, about pristine, about pristine women's rooms. But I will tell you firsthand, I spent three years cleaning them, but cleaning two sets of bathrooms and one, one I did not dread cleaning. Damn. Well, this is good to know. So going back to what you're saying, I wonder if the gist of it is, is it, is it that it's easier to look in when you are not in? Is that what it is? Is, is there, is there a correlation between being able to critique a society and look at it through an objective lens when you are not like held within the, the, the deepest van of that, of that society? Is that what it is? Or, or is it just how your mind works? Like, what do you, what do you think informs how you're able to be a great critic at large? It's probably both. I mean, you know, I'm going to answer this, but I'm also like in sitting here talking to you and being familiar with the work that, that, that goes on. Work. Like, especially with Trevor. You call this work? I mean, it is, well, have you seen us though? Where have you been for the last hour and a half? Work. You've been working. Like this, this is a, this is a mind. This is an act of mind. But I mean, I think, I mean, one of the things that, you know, one of the great thrills of, of, of my cultural diet in my lifetime was, was like spending time with you during the pandemic. Oh, damn. Thank you. Right. I mean, you were doing the work that I do just in this highly concentrated, I would say almost like vertiginously difficult form. Vertiginously. Just, you know, like, oh man, we need to like, Yo. Doesn't matter. You can cut it. Yo. No, I'm not cutting anything. We just need a, whoo. But anyway, the point is like, This man's vocabulary. I think there's a world in which some of my interests, yes, vertiginous, vertiginous, like vertigo, you know, like, No, no, no, I'm with you. Okay. And like, I'll, yeah, I'll catch up. All right. I learned words me. Oh no. Look out. Fasten your seatbelt. He's, he's already there. Wow. It usually takes me a drink to start working for Massa. Just, I mean, just saying. I did, we did just, we do whatever. The, my point is that I think I'm hearing what you say. And I think that there is, there's something about wanting to understand how the world works. Yeah. And there's an understanding, you develop an understanding, especially as a young person that like art, art is a version of how the world works. Yes. It is a world unto itself that is also in, in one way or another. Reflecting the world you live in, even if like the properties within that world aren't one to one yours. I mean, I think that one of the most amazing things about the way that I grew up, and Nicola Hannah Jones and I talk about this a lot, just in terms of, with a sense of wonder, which is, you know, we grew up like millions of people grew up at a time, black people grew up at a time where, you know, if you go back and watch the, the movies of the 1970s, 80s and 90s, like there were very few flattering depictions of black people from Hollywood at least. And it never mattered. Right. It never mattered because, hey, I mean, I knew what my family was like. I knew I was, I was a part of a family that had no bearing. You know, there would be these ways in which like people would seem to overlap with members of my family, like this actress, Anna Maria Horsford, when she would show up like as Harrison Ford's secretary and presumed innocent. I knew that movie wasn't about her and I wasn't silly enough to think it should have been, but there was also a part of me that was like, why shouldn't it be? What she'd do on this woman's getting murdered over here in the office. Like I, I just wondered about things like that, but I also was just fascinated by how these made things like had meaning. They met something like the stories amounted to something. The, the prolonged exposure to individual stars or individual story tropes, they wound up meaning something like what, what is a Glenn Close performance when you've watched 10 Glenn Close movies in, you know, seven years? You know, who is Spike Lee? Who is this guy Spike Lee? Once you've seen, you know, four or five Spike Lee movies. What are soundtracks doing? Like, so you're telling me there's a world in which there's music playing in this movie and the people in the movie can't hear it. Whoa. But I can hear it and this music has nothing to do with the, with anything happening in the world of the movie, but well in the world of the characters, but in the world of the movie, this soundtrack is like, like a conveyor belt of action and emotion. Right. And a feeling like that is, I just, I became obsessed with how soundtracks worked in, in, in movies. Now there are no soundtracks. Yeah. Right. There's a music supervisor who makes sure like there's vintage music in a lot of these movies. Yeah. Cool, cool songs. But at one point in time, you were getting original music. Some of the greatest pop songs ever written were written for movies. My heart will go on. Um, I mean, yeah. That is like, that is an elite example. Highway to the fucking dangers. Right. Like, like a move, like a song that it's so written and could only exist for Top Gun. Like you couldn't put that, you just, you couldn't put that out as a song without knowing there was a, there was that fighter jet attached to it. What, what is Kenny talking about? What is he talking, Highway to the Danger Zone? But you know, because you would have known that Tom Cruise, well, you would have known that Top Goma's attached to it. Tom Cruise was not quite yet. It was not the big stuff that he was talking about. The Tom Cruise. He became a star in part because of that movie. But I don't know, I just really wanted to figure out what, what the meaning of things were. Like I can tell you like reading all of those people as younger versions of themselves. Yeah. That they also had these questions. And frequently the thing that made someone like Margot Jefferson great was that she really wanted to understand, for instance, because she wrote about music for a long time, why all these white artists sounded black. Right? Like she just was hearing black music in these white artists' sounds and wanted to try to taxonomize and kind of theorize a little bit about what she was hearing. And, you know, she wrote one of the greatest pieces of criticism I've ever read about like mostly built around Elvis, but also just around like 1970s rock and roll. And its relationship to 1950s rock and roll in the US. Do you guys like, are there like South African critics that you, that you like a lot? Well, there was one that Trevor brought up the other day, which we grew up watching on television every Sunday. Oh, Barry Ronger. Yeah. He was legendary. Okay, I'm into that. But he was a film critic, but he was... Every Sunday. Barry Ronger? Yeah. Okay. Post away many, many years ago, but like he was the first person I think most of us encountered where he would, he wouldn't tell you like the movie was cool or fun or he didn't use any of those words or ideas. He, he critiqued what it was trying to do and what it meant and how it would, but in a way where like, I remember sitting in front of the TV as a 10 year old and I felt like I needed like a monocle and a glass of tea. No, because of how sophisticated he made me feel. Oh, interesting. Do you know what I mean? Like I would, I would, and then when I would go to the cinema, I would stand there with my friends and I'd be like, ah, yes, I've heard that it relies too heavily on tropes of, I don't know what any of this means. But you know what it made me do is like, at least around that time, it gave me the first invitation to think beyond what was presented and also include how it was presented and what that meant. And he like, I think he did that in a big way where it was like, oh, he made you realize when things were derivative, he made you consider why it wasn't, you know, because you'd be like, it's a dope action movie. And then by the end of his review and his critique, you'd go, huh, this is not, it's not really a great story or it's not a, you know, and I, that's, I would say that's like one of those where we, he had an outsize influence, I think in a lot of South Africans lives. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, I'd never heard of him. I'm, I'm definitely, I will spend some time watching some YouTube. Some YouTube. I wonder if they'll be on, you never know. If you can get past the bejezzled waistcoat and wait. He's to, he's to have an interest. Oh, not one of those credits. There's always, you know, how he dressed. He's to have a waistcoat and like a white long shirt. I actually forgot how he dressed. Then it was like, it was sequined. Yeah. Some, yeah. He was flamboyant. Huh. Huh. Fascinating. You don't remember that part. No, no, no. So the important part got through though. Huh. Yes. I mean, I guess, yeah, but I'm like, I never got information about a movie. I was like, I'm never wearing a waistcoat in my life ever. But a jacket with sequins. Count me in. Oh man. Yo Wes, this has been great, man. Thanks for having me. No man, like, because genuinely, I hope, I hope people get what I get from you. And it's like, I don't know, here's what it is. I think as we've come to live in a world that gives us more faster, it means we have less time to digest, right? So just like food, you're just getting it shoveled at you, shoveled at you, shoveled, but now it's in like tiny little bites and it's like, it just moves on and it's gone. And when you're in that world, you don't necessarily notice the story of the meal that you're getting. You don't see the trend. You don't really understand what just happened or what you might be part of or what story you're hearing. And what I really love about your work is it just reminds us and invites us to do that in like a really cool way. Like I think a lot of people love movies, but not many people think about what a movie does to them and how it makes them feel, how it can make a country see itself or not. How can make a people see itself? So like, thank you, man. I appreciate your work, your vibe coming and hanging with us. Thank you. Yeah, man. I'm gonna, I mean, it was an honor. I appreciate you guys a lot. You got to come back again. Truly appreciate you. I will come back. You got to come. What's the best movie you've seen this year? This year. Yeah. I know a lot of them were terrible. What's the best one you saw this year? From this year. Yeah. Okay. I mean, it's tricky. You know, I saw this, there's a few, there's a few movies I've seen that I liked. I just, well, I liked Warriors a lot. It's okay. Sorry, weapons. Weapons, weapons. I liked weapons a lot. I don't know why I keep calling it Warriors. Weapons, you know, has all the, when you were talking about the granularity, the sort of like, like native granularity that has gone out of the movies. Yes. Just like, you know, the things that give a movie or any work of art, be it a novel or a painting, a sense of place, texture as well. There's a, have you seen this movie? No, don't spoil anything. I won't spoil anything. But it's, I know it's from the same director and I think writer of Barbarian. Yes. Yes. And some of the imagery that you sort of even alluding to is similar. Yes. Like you felt like you were somewhere with people who live a certain life and it felt very like us. This movie has a sense of place, even though it doesn't tell you exactly where it is. I see some Pennsylvania license plates. And in the distance, you can see a city that is not Philadelphia, but you know you're somewhere like small townie, but you also, there's a, there's a really important shot in the movie. It doesn't spoil anything. But I think about it a lot in terms of the way some production person and perhaps even the screenplay itself wanted us to notice something without drawing our attention to it explicitly. There might be a close-up of what I'm about to tell you, but I noticed it before the camera told me to, which is a bunch of newspapers piled up in a driveway, like newspaper delivered. And they just, these plastic bags of newspaper, just littering a driveway. In the background of a different shot, of a shot that had, you're not necessarily, you're free to notice whatever you want because it's a painterly image, right? The image is a long shot. It's framed in such a way that your eye is free to go wherever it wants. It's a very democratic piece of filmmaking, this movie in a lot of ways, in terms of what it's allowing you to keep your eye on. But I noticed that and I was like, I don't really care what else happens in this movie because this, the person who made it cares about the things I care about. He thought about us. Right. He thought about like what a regular human might be like living day to day. So I don't know. I mean, that's a good, but also, sorry, I got, I tried to connect that to what we were talking about earlier. The movie is just suspenseful. It's just a very great work of suspense. Okay. I had, it hit my dread, my dread area. I rarely experienced dread the way I did in this movie. You might hate the ending. The ending changed nothing for me. I like the ending just as much as I liked everything else. Sinners, you know, Sinners is not, Sinners, it's funny. I was watching weapons and was like, I think this is a better made movie than Sinners. Because it almost really is, but weapons doesn't have what Sinners has, which is like an active mind that is really determined to make you wonder what is really going on here. Right? Like your imagination as a moviegoer is free to, I mean, I'm still not sure about Sinners in terms of like what is going on. Whereas weapons, it's pretty, there's some ambiguities, but It ties it up. It's ambiguities aren't really at selling point. It's the crispness of its filmmaking and it's real attention to how to build and generate and exploit suspense. But Sinners is just like, God damn it. It's a great film. Like this, the first hour of that movie alone, I could have watched two of that. Yeah, that's just like a film film. Yeah. And this is like, and it's just a very satisfying work of ideas. And sometimes the work of ideas is almost better than a perfectly made movie. So, I mean, those are the two, and then there's this movie that's going to come out in the fall by Kelly Reichart. Called Mastermind. That's about, that's got a, oh my God, what's that guy's name? I'm not used to saying, he's the Irish guy who is in Challengers, who is not Mike Feist. Irish guy in Challengers. Anyway, that guy, whose name will occur to me while I'm saying this to you, he tries to commit, you're not going to believe this, an art heist. Full circle moment. Full circle moment. And the question is, is he going to pull it off? And I won't ruin it for you, but this movie has, it's thrilling because you're watching a director whose movies you've been, I've been watching for years. Been yearning for. And she, she's just really, she's an art director. She's in, I don't know if she cares where her movies get played, but like she just, all, she's into texture, she's into like atmosphere, plot is not really her thing. This woman was like, you know what, I want to tell a story, beginning, middle, end, suspense, surprise, this movie has the ending of the year. Oh wow. It's got. Big words. It's called mastermind. It is, it is very, very good with that Irish actor that you're going to see. What is it? Josh O'Connor? Is that it? Josh O'Connor. We, we believe in no googling in our culture. Eugene and I have a pact. Whoever can say the answer the most convincing. We go with it. We go with that. I've been convinced many times this afternoon. We're anti-google. Yeah, this was great. Thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. And good luck in the, in the, you have the pleasure of being here. You have the podcast? Yes. Cannonball is happening every week for the foreseeable future. Yes. Forever, forever and ever and ever. Forever and ever. Um, and you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go right tomorrow. Thanks for having me. This is dope. Thank you. Thank you. This episode is presented by Whole Foods Market. Whole Foods Market has everything you need for the holidays, whether you're a guest or hosting the big dinner. Whole Foods Market has convenient and cost-friendly finds that'll delight everyone at your table, plus great gift ideas, all of which follow the Whole Foods Market's strict ingredient standards. Shop for everything you need at Whole Foods Market, your holiday headquarters. What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Senaz Yamin and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now.