Former HubSpot CRO on the Math Nobody Uses to Scale | Mark Roberge

At AJ Bell, we believe investing is for everyone. And when we say everyone, we mean your dad, Dan, Danielle, Dean, Dave, Del, Del's delivery driver Denise, Denise's dentist, Dinesh, and Devon's strongest man, Donathan. Donathan? Donathan, that can't be right. Donathan? Well, whatever your name is, if you're a real person, investing is for you too. AJ Bell, feel good investing. The value of your investments can go up or down. Half the entrepreneurs I meet are going too slow. Half the entrepreneurs I meet are going too fast. It's just go at the right pacing. The root cause of that is sales. People think that the root cause of a retention issue is product or the account manager postsale. No, it's sales. It's who you chose to sell to and the expectations you set along the way. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. Today's guest is a true unicorn in the world of building companies. Mark Rubers is the founding CRO of HubSpot, where he took the company from zero to a billion dollar plus IPO by treating sales not as an art, but as a science. After teaching the next generation of leaders at Harvard Business School, he's now the managing partner at Stage 2 Capital and the author of the book, The Science of Scaling. He's here today to challenge the growth at all costs mantra and give us a data driven playbook for earning the right to scale. This, if you're a nerdy salesperson, if you're like into nerdy sales stuff, scripting, philosophy, compensation, you are going to absolutely love this episode. This is a sales nerd episode at its core. Let's get on to Mark Rubers. Why is the narrative about scaling that you see like on X or Instagram so much different than the reality the founders actually face on a day to day basis? Like, why are we sold this like scale at all costs 20 hours a day? Rude your frigging mind, burn every bridge, spend every dollar is like what you see, you know, in the memes, but we both know that's not to be successful. That's not how it really works. So yeah, yeah. I'm yeah, that's a really good question why it happens. I mean, I would think like. It might we have to do a minor history lesson here where it's like if we go back decades in entrepreneurship, it was absurd to lose money on a business for years. Like the venture capital was such a small like, you know, piece of it still is. People get confused. It makes all the headlines, but people are still shocked to hear that more wealth is generated in entrepreneurship and non venture capital backed startups. That's like shocking to people like, especially in the US, I think it's the only way to like do a startup is to do. You can't even tell you, Ryan, how many founders show up to me looking for money. And I'm like, don't raise venture capital. And that's where I'm selling. You know what I mean? Like you get the whole. So I think maybe it's a history there where it's like you had this, you know, startups isn't the whole point of the business make money. And then like all of a sudden, maybe maybe we'll call it like 2000 where you had the dot com craze, which was like up and down. But like VC, like catapulted and that kind of entrepreneurship catapulted. Like it crashed, but then it stayed high and went bananas. And, you know, work like the Blitzkilling came out where it's like, dude, you got to go fast, break things, burn money, get into orbit. And this went too far, right? Because I think we could all sit around into like too far in certain contexts. So let's like kind of frame that first act because like, I think first off, we all could agree that if you're a founder, unless you're like Elon Musk, which is an extreme era and you're doing SpaceX, which is a very different context. For most startups, you're not going to burn a billion dollars a year. Okay. And then for like a VC backed startup, burning 100,000 a year isn't just not being aggressive enough. We can agree on those parameters. But where is optimal in between there? And like that, what came out of that was this obsession with top line revenue growth as the only way to measure success, because that largely drives your valuation and to burn it all costs to do it. And there's just not enough scaffolding. And like, Ryan, I'm not saying you should go slower or go faster. I find that half the entrepreneurs I meet are going too slow. Half the entrepreneurs I meet are going too fast. Just go at the right pacing. And the answer to that can be approach with the rigor that we have in economics and finance and strategy and marketing today and its kindergarten level today. When I first got into business was right after the dot com bubble crash 2002. And I remember back then it's almost flipped from the way it is today. Like if you were an entrepreneur back then, it was because you couldn't hack it in the big businesses, exactly. The corporate world. And now it's the flip. Now the badge of honor is I'm an entrepreneur. You know, like you can't hack it as an entrepreneur. I work in corporate and it's it's such a different quality. I agree with you, Ryan, because I get jokingly. Well, I was in business school around that time. It was just crashed. And there was a joke that B2B and B2C meant back to banking and back to consulting to your point. Right. It was like that. And I was like I was at MIT at business school. There was like 500 kids in my class. I think three of us were doing startups and everyone was like, what a bunch of morons. You know, like what are you doing? That was so 1998. Yeah. You like look at the pictures of entrepreneurs. It's like great greasy kids in a, you know, yes, that like make it in the social world, the anti social kids. Right. Those were the entrepreneurs back then, you know. Fine. It's so funny how that has flipped. And now they're like the rock stars. And that's that's probably where some of the mythology comes from. You know what I mean? You get these people that just don't know how to to pass this down and sell it. I guess when it comes to this, this idea and what I love about your book is how you've taken this idea that for so long has almost been sold as like an art form, like you're there. Yeah, you're an entrepreneur. You're a. Yeah. You, you have this magic wand and you can see, and it's really just math. I mean, there's a little bit of you got to make the call for sure. Yeah. Got instinct. These things are important. But like, do you think is it intellectual laziness? Is it just that there's 10 million things they have to think about? And, and this idea of scaling smart is just a brain cycle too far? Oh, there's, I think the couple layers and why it occurs. I would say when you're faced with the decision, the people around the table don't have a ton of that bats at that moment. In a lot of cases, the founder, it's the first time. Like literally we're at this moment right. It's like you're a group of six engineers. You got dozens of customers. It started to fly. You're at a million in revenue and someone hands you eight million bucks. That's fucking like as a first time founder, that's like intimidating. Holy shit. I've never seen this much money in a bank account and now I'm in charge of it. And the person that gave it, so they don't, they've never done it. They do that. I don't know what to do. I, it's, it feels like I should go fast because I, I read about the top three stories in the history of the world on how fat, like how fast open AI went, how fast data breaks went. It seems like that's what I should do. And, and then the VC that gives it to you. A lot of times they hadn't operated. What their career has been is they've sat on 10 boards and one hit it. And the one that hit it did that. They hired 10 reps the next month and it took off. So they're like, oh, that's how you do it. But what happened in that case was like that company, whether it was data breaks or open AI or Google back in the day, it happened. Their strength of product market fit was so outrageous that they could have hired chimpanzees and they would have hit their quota. Like it was like, it was order taking. And there's no assessment for the current company around the strength of the product market fit, which is not that if you look at Wikipedia, it's like people talk about it like it's a feeling and it can be totally quadrupled. Totally quantified, which is a precursor to that massive scale. And then the premise of go to market fit, which is like product market fit is just like, does your product deliver the value promised? And we can measure that. And then the go to market fit is like, now that I know that, can I sell it profitably? Like quotas, commissions, territory, blah, blah. And then we can go into the scale mode. Right. So, but like, I think that's probably one of the root causes is the people are on the table have very little experience around many, many at bats of the different contexts in which you can be faced with this. Okay. We're going to, are we ready to scale fast and how fast can we go? You have this concept that when I, that coming out of the insurance industry, so I share with you before we went live, my home industry was the property casualty insurance industry. Yes. Worked in there for 20 years, mostly on the retail side. And had started my own digital commercial insurance agency, found in my own agency seven days with a zombie apocalypse hit up in New York. Not a great time to have just sunk about 50 K into something your own insurance agency, every, it was commercial. So there's another great part. Right. It was every customer in the world. My Tam was literally zero for about three months. Holy cow. That was an interesting experience. And we were able to grow out of it and all this kind of stuff. But you have this concept of a leading indicator of retention. And that one, I hadn't, I had never thought about a leading indicator of retention. And as someone coming out of the, At H.A. Bell, we believe investing is for everyone. And when we say everyone, we mean your dad, Dan, Danielle, Dean, Dave, Dell, Del's delivery driver, Denise, Denise's dentist, Dinesh and Devon's strongest man, Donathan. Donathan. Donathan, that can't be right. Donathan. Well, whatever your name is, if you're a real person, investing is for you too. A.J. Bell, feel good investing. The value of your investments can go up or down. Insurance industry where retention is our entire business. The reason that the property, casualty insurance world can operate like it's 1992 technology wise is because the business model is so good. Don't tell anybody, but it's going to be a C player. I know. Great crush it. Right. This, talk to me a little bit about like, and where I, what I liked about this was in the product market fit section because I'm framing this question poorly, but the idea here is I like, I really liked the idea and love for you to expand on in the product market fit stage thinking about who's going to retain and looking to retain out of it. I had never thought about thinking into it that early in the process. That's where I'm trying to go with that. Oh, it's beautiful. I know exactly what you're asking about. And it's like, I remember, I'll kind of root this in a funny story. And it's about our, our series D investment at HubSpot. We got from Sequoia and the partner there who's like, by the way, like a billionaire, like I'm just, I'm going to kind of like poke at them for a second, even though like I sat down with PacGradian January, brought my students to him, like best friends, like high respect, bow down, whatever, let's just cut. But like they did our series D investment. I remember, and it was a while ago, right? It was like 2008. So like we were still in this, exactly your question is Ryan, where we hadn't quite gotten how important retention was in the cloud journey and how important sales was to retention, which is kind of what you're getting at. It is shocking to people. And I remember I was being peppered by the Sequoia partner as he was deciding whether to make the investment. And he's like, I need to talk to the sales leader. And I was talking a lot about this of like selling into high value accounts, qualifying against their willingness to use the product. And he was like, dude, just go close business. Like sales is job is to drive revenue. Like customer success and product is a job of making it work. And it's fine. Like again, bow down and we're all in that. But that is like not a correct statement in a lot of situations. And when I go in and having to help these companies that are flatlined, which a lot of case the root causes is retention. And surprisingly, the root cause of that is sales. People think that the root cause of a retention issue is product or the account manager post sale or the person that on board at it. No, it's sales. It's who you chose to sell to and the expectations you set along the way. Like in my world, it's like, if you don't get IT, if there's setup work needed on your product and you don't get IT involved pre-sale, that customer is cooked. And by the way, I can get a contract and a wire without talking IT. You want me to sell? Fine, I can do it. I'll sell ICE to Eskimos. But like that's not a good business. And so, so yeah, like to your point, you know, the underlying theme there is retention starts with sales. And the objective of sales is not to get a wire and a contract is to generate a lifetime value customer, which is what you experience in the insurance world. And that's why one of the key work, you know, one of the works in the book is around defining your leading indicator of retention. Because like when you're trying to like, you're kind of pulling away from that. Like, okay, sweet, like I need to incentivize my salespeople to sell lifetime value customers. And their complaint is not set for that. Their complaint is like, go close 500,000 this quarter and I'll pay you, which has nothing to do with LTV. So the immediate instinct is like, okay, why don't I just start paying them an annuity? Like every time I get paid, every month they get paid. And I don't know if that's how it works in insurance, Ryan, but that wouldn't work in a lot of businesses because then you'll have reps who first off, they come in, they have to build their book of business. So that means you're like probably attracting a bunch of junior reps because it takes a while to make money. And then once they've hit it two years later where they have the book of the business, there's on the beach all day. They're not motivated to work. Right. You got to like, when they have a good quarter, they got to get paid. When they have a bad quarter, they get a few on their paycheck. And that's where the lead indicator of attention comes in, which is like, what is it that you can see in the first month of a customer's engagement with you? That if that occurs, they'll be with you forever. And if it doesn't, they'll leave. And some classic examples that were like Slack, if the customer sent 2000 team messages in a month, HubSpot, if they use five or more features and the 25 feature platform, these were the lead indicator of attention that you could see in the first month that if they happen, they're with you forever. If they don't, they leave. And you can over time, statistically correlate that to long-term attention to be sure. And once you have that, you can do a whole bunch of things with it, including pay a rent. Including pay your reps. So now the complaint is like, yeah, you get paid half when you get the signature and wire and half when they hit the lead indicator of attention. And it's like, I'm not, I'm not screwing you over. Most people hit the lead indicator of attention in the first month. And some, some people, if you have a free trial, hit it before they even send, send the wire. So just do both jobs, get the wire, get the money and get them. And you're not like turning your, a lot of people think, oh, I'm turning my rep into a technical consultant. No, it's just like, you still have the technical on board or you still have the customer success measure, you still have the commentator. The rep is just saying the things necessary that they should be to tee up the expectations, the account to work. But how does that translate in insurance, Ryan? Directly. So one of the things that I have always thought about with SAS and SDR compensation is this is a, this is a conversation that has probably been had more than any other space in the property, casualty insurance industry. Wow. The reason that property, casualty insurance or I'll just say insurance, because I want to separate out, separate out life. It's a completely different monster and health. I'm sort of talking guys, we're talking home in autos, commercial insurance, that kind of stuff is that the upfront commissions are very small. So, so it's called building a book of business. Yes. And essentially you get a front end new business split and a renewal split. And one of the things that when I'm working with founders of agencies, you know, because I've worked in that space a lot is that those levers are really important to what you want your business to do. So if you want, you know, big incentives, drive action, right? So if you want top line growth, if that's what matters to your point, then you ramp up your new business commission, you ramp down your renewal commission and guess what their incentive is to do, right? Fogs the mirror, put it on the books. Yes. The interesting part about that is business owners, agency owners, in this case, founders of it's a SaaS company, they love to thump their chest about that new business revenue. Oh, dude, you should see the year I had, man. Oh, and then it's rolling off the back. Just like you said, you're pushing 60, 70% retention rates and you can't grow an insurance business that way. A year later, which is too bad. Now you've like buried this, you've dug this hole for a year. Holy cow. So here's my question for you because I have a whole bunch of thoughts on this in this area and I think it's very goals, what you're trying to do with your company, what season you're in specific. But you said something and I just, I'm very interested in this question from sales leaders. Let's say that SDR has a retention piece to their business, right? So some form of, hey, you bring it in, you get half, they hit their leading indicator retention, you get another half and then we give you a 3% ongoing spiff for the lifetime of the account for, you know, if you need to come in and touch them or, you know, be that kind of second set of hands or whatever. And they get to 500,000 in personal income, right? And they just like you said, downshift into second, umbrella goes in the drink, feet go up on the stool, but they're maintaining a half a million dollar book of business every year. Yes. Why is that bad? Like what, why do they have an army of people managing a half a million dollar book if the retention can, let's assume for this thought experiment, the retention is higher if they're continuing to touch it. Yeah. This is like, this is cool, Ryan, because we could, we could like maybe try to push the frontier on insurance commission plans and strategy, which would be great. Because I can learn from you and more in my tech world and we can do some things in the tech. So I have an answer to that, which the Asterisk is going to be like ability to attract talent, but the problem with that strategy, and I get it. It's like you, you, you busted your hump for two years, five years, whatever it took. And now you got your big, big business. This happens in a wealth management to some degree, you know, like it happens in other industries. The problem is you're wasting a skill set. That person has the capability to not only maintain that book of business at the, you know, the 98% that you want, but also go find another two million every year. They're not, they're just not motivated to do so. And you could devise, you know, I'm going to take like talent, uh, competition aside for a sec. You can devise if the whole industry moved in this way, you would get way more out of those folks and you could do what they call a gated commission plan, which is like, all right, congrats, Ryan. You've got, what's the book? What, when do you relax? Is it five million? When do you start to put the, what's the book of business? The industry standard is when you hit, uh, about 10 grand in monthly renewal commission, so about a buck 20 is when you see the first downshift and at 250 is when they start to coast usually. Okay. So good for you. You've got your huge book of business. You're, you've got 250 K coming in every year just to maintain that. And so basically I'm going to pay you. What's, what do you get paid? Like, what is it? 3% on the renewal? What's the, so we can talk to him. Uh, maybe 40% new 20% renewal. Something like that. So I'm going to give you 20, you're making 250 K. So you've got a $5 million book of business. I'm paying you 20%. I'm paying you 20% and you're just coasting. So here's how you, the problem is you're wasting that hunter skill. Cause that's a gifted person that could be just doing more business for you and them. And so you could use a gated commission plan, which is this, I'm going to pay you. Um, if your new sales in 2026 is under. Um, 200,000. I'm going to pay you 15% of renewals. If your new sales and 2026 is between 200,000 and 500,000. I'm going to pay you 20% of renewals. If your new sales is between 500 and 750. I'm going to pay you 25% of renewals and if your new sales is between 750 and over some 50, I'm going to pay you 30% renewals. I like that. I mean, pushback though. I mean, my first pushback would be, dude, what senior person's gonna come there? It's like, I have to work forever now. I can't just do, the whole reason I got into insurance was to work my ass off for five years and then go buy a beach house. But this Ryan's comp plan is shit. I have to work every year. So that's definitely a problem because, you know, burnout for, I mean burnout for sales professionals is a real thing for you. There's no doubt. But I will say there is a particular acuteness to burnout in insurance if you are nose to the ground grinding for five, seven years. Like there's, insurance is a odd business, dude. I can work on it with you though. I wanted to get a chance of working on that, but keep going on your, keep going. Yeah. So what my, it's an odd business in that, and I fought this for a decade, a decade. I fought this idea that like, there was actually something unique about the ecosystem, the fact that there's 50 states, every state is regulated independently. There's also federal regulation. There's all this, the data, like, I don't know if you've ever dug into the data issue in the insurance industry, but it is like, it'll make smoke come out of your ears. It's really bad. So there's like this, there's like this frictional grind to the process as well. There's no straight through processing. Like none of that exists. So my, so what I've seen a lot of founders turn to, and I'm really interested in your take, I love this gated idea. Yep. Where does it, Yeah, it has issues. Like a phantom equity play as well. Cause I've seen guys and gals try to use something like a phantom equity or some sort of ownership plan as a way to incentivize long-term growth as well. Love it. Yeah, there's multiple different ways to do this. So there's that play and then, yeah, there's, you can, you're just trying to like give them a reason to, you know, continue to grind and get out there. Okay. Now, my only counter to my personal devil's advocate, which was like competition for talent, where it's like, I can go to one firm, work my ass off for five years and stay on a beach. I can go to Ryan's firm, work my ass for five years. And I still have to work to get the true pay. My counter to that though is remember that, yes, I did say that if your sales sock, your renewal commission drops from 20 to 15. But I also said that if your sales are good, your renewal commission goes from 20 to 30. So I believe that word will get around and there are, you tell me if I'm wrong, but like every sales industry has those frigging grinders. They just are addicted to the quota. They love to do this. It's their art. They want to wake up every morning from the age of 22 to 65 and frigging go find new people. They're coming to your firm because they're getting paid. So like that would be my slight counter is like, I think this plan will suss out the mediocre, I want to do it, you know, and really attract the bigger performers. I would say like the other thing that was like wound up in your comment was burnout. And that's in everything dude, like tech is a grind too. Like these were all grinds. And I had this innovation at HubSpot that while in the midst of a tech sales climate where the average tenure was 2.2 years, I was able to pull off 6.5. And the key to it was this. Cause I would get these interviews from, I would interview like these top reps coming from other places. I'm like, why are you leaving? They were like, well, I'm just kind of like burnt out there. I like, I have the same OT, the same quota, the same territory. And yeah, guess what? We just did our annual planning. They cut my territory in half. They doubled my quota. I'm like, why are they doing this to their top talent? Like these people just leaving for these like absurd scaling strategies like cut quota in half double quote, like that's the formula. And so I was like, okay, we're not doing that. I'm like, these, and the other thing that was happening was I kept having top reps come to me and be like, I want to be a manager. And I'm like, why? They're like, oh, that's the only way you can grow in sales. And I'm like, dude, there's so many studies that show that the top reps make the worst managers. And like everybody, all the top reps become, like if they try it, they're like, dude, I hate this. It's like adult daycare. I've lost all my personal independence. I'm making less money because I used to just crush it on my own. Now I'm trying to crush it through eight people. So like I'm putting these things together. I'm like, dude, there's gotta be a way to grow without becoming manager. So I created this promotion path, which is kind of what you're getting at Ryan with this probably this equity share, where the way I did it was like, you come in as a level one rep and you get like your 50 K base, 50 K commission. And you know, like you got to hit your, your quote is whatever, like 800,000. And then the way that you get to level two, if you get to level two, I'm gonna increase your commission to 60 K. So you get a 10 K OT E bump. And I'm gonna give you a thousand stock options. That's how it worked. Like we, it was very common, Wreckley. And they're like, oh, sick, that's awesome. How do I get to level two? It was like, once you hit an $800,000 install base, and then you can put other stuff in there, like, oh, you're, you're leading indicator attention needs to be this, right? So that's another way to like have them as an LTV hunter, you know? And this is where you could, let's do the insurance example. Let's do it that. So you come in at level one, you get your payment. And if you get to level two, I'm gonna bump you to now 25% renewals instead of 20. And the way you get to level two is you need an install base of, you know, a million bucks. And your new sales average per trailing six months has to be like whatever, 10,000. So that gets them hunting all the time. Once you hit that, some people do it in four months, some people it takes two years. You go to level two, you get the bump. Now you gotta go for level three. Level three is to get to a three million install base and your new, your average monthly sales has to be 50,000. I apologize if my numbers insurance are off, right? You guys get the point. And when you get to level three, we bump you another, your renewal rate goes up a little more and we give you a little equity. You get what I'm saying? And what happens, Ryan, is there's this game that they're playing that motivates them. Like this six-year journey, seven-year journey insurance is no longer just, it's like, oh, shit, I'm level four. I'm trying to get to level five this year. And you could correlate with like skill certifications, certain trainings, mentor, you know, like, it could become this whole like college experience. And maybe you've seen it. Like I apologize if I'm like talking about stuff that was done 20 years ago. No, I love this. I would say there are a few more sophisticated organizations that do have and run sales departments with, I'm not gonna say anything like that, but certainly more sophisticated and well thought out versions. But they're rare. I think the, unlocks. Do they work? I'd give leadership in general in the insurance industry a C minus. So it's hard for me to say. Yeah, yeah. You know, and there's a common joke that, you know, if you're even a B plus player and you come to the insurance industry, you feel like an A plus player. Like it just, just... Well, I wanna work on that together too, but like, okay, I gotcha. Yeah, and there's a whole conversation there. Yes, yes. It's a very odd space. But what I think an unlock that you have given my mind in this call is I love the idea of attaching variable stages of compensation to this leading indicator of retention. Yeah. Because especially, you know, it's not a one-off business. It's not, we're not selling a t-shirt, even though you can have t-shirt, I guess, but you know, this is a very retention heavy business. And, you know, things, now, there are absolutely indicators, particularly if you own a niche, you have a specific industry you're going after, a specific product you sell. It's not hard to figure out what the leading retention indicator is going to be on these fairly quick. What was an example? Like a simple one would be the number of policies you have. Great. Industry average, if you have one policy, 36% retention, two policies, 72%, 3% 93%. Perfect. That's like very classic like platform sale when you get multiple modules and sticks, it's great. Yep. So that would be an easy one. And, you know, it's funny though, and so here's what I'll put in front of you. My agency, the reason that we, so for one year, we were the fastest growing small commercial agency outside of the top 200 in the entire industry. So think of top 200 agencies as like Martian, McLennan, Brown and Brown, some of them are publicly traded, et cetera. Then you have everyone underneath that. That's essentially the way the industry works. There's like top 200 mega agencies, and then there's everyone else. And we were the fastest growing small commercial agency in the country for 2021 because I built, we were wholly inbound. So everything we did was based on YouTube and SEO. We were driving north of 35 inbound leads a day for about 14. And I built this like sales process that was all psychology based. It was basically, Chris Voss has never split the difference, but rigged to insurance, right? So at the end, the person had been, you know, PSYOP to the point where they couldn't say no. Now, and so this is where my question comes from. Our philosophy, because on inbound, my personal philosophy is sell the problem, close the account later, right? So you round out later, sell the problem at the point of sale, so because with inbound, right? I mean, you know this as well as anybody, you work the hub spot, right? When they have inbound is more like, I have a problem and I have decided that you are the person that I want to solve my problem. So what I taught my reps was sell that problem, solve that problem for them, take that concern off their brain, which is often one policy, but the numbers don't lie. You need multiple policies if you want to retain. So we then would go back around and we had a process for going back around and trying to close out and round out the rest of the account. But at the point of sale. Same meeting or a later. Yeah, so in general, what are your thoughts on that? And we did flail quite a bit with compensating because of that model, getting the reps to go back around and close out. Do you have account managers do it? There was a lot. Oh yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, let me unpack that. By the way, when you went back around, was that like in a separate meeting or you tried to do it in the meeting? Same meeting to get the second policy and the third one? Unless they just said, here, take all my stuff, it was a separate meeting we would come back to. Yeah, that's fine. That's cool. Okay, I think it's either I like it in general and then you're asking an abstract question. So first off, let me just frame. You're asking an abstract question of like, do you specialize or not? And the quick answer in that context is I don't think you do. I think they're full cycle. But I have actually, I'm faced with this strategic decision all the time in very different contexts, from pharmaceuticals to trackers to software to whatever. And there's a two-part question to help you determine it. The first question is, what percent of the lifetime value of that account is captured in the first sale? Like the LTV potential? If like, it's 90% then you're gonna specialize. Cause this is around, the toughest skill in all the whole Godot Market Journal journey from marketing to customer service is just that hunting closing skill. I don't wanna waste that on retention if I'm gonna capture 95% of the potential in the first sale. But in this case, it's not. One policy, we can get four. We're talking like, on average, maybe 25 to 40% of the potential is in the first sale. So that's like, second question is, that's leaning toward full cycle. But the second question is, what's the skill set necessary to capture the other 70%? Cause there's some places like, like open AI, like they just trip compute wires and like they just have to click buy more. Like I'm not gonna waste a hunter on that. But like in this case, no, it's a skill. Like you gotta get back in front of that, you know, husband or wife, you gotta like probably even more difficult cause their pressing need was life insurance cause they're about to have a baby. But now you gotta get their home in auto too. You know what I mean? So it's like, that's tough cause they're already like with someone else. So I think the answer is definitely full cycle is keep people there. Because the reasons are like, there's always pros and cons of specialization. I think we've batted away the pro is you're taking that very hard to find hunting skill and making them hunt and close all day as opposed to waste them with minute skills. But the cons are, I just spent like, you know, a month with Ryan talking about his family, his kids, his wife. That's like a relationship and knowledge that is gonna be super useful for me to go get the auto and home insurance. And if I hand that off, that's a, that's headwinds. Right. So, yeah. Yeah. And so, but yeah, to your point, like I like the, we call it the land and expand in software. And I think it's the way to go. I think it's a way to go. And it just takes deep discovery on like what, you know, when you look at it from their lens, why would they wanna, after they bought life insurance with you, is there a common path like what they started with and then what you had up some to, or is it all over the place? It's not a business because we sold commercial insurance exclusively. Most people started with us for workers compensation. And then we would expand from there. So we would get the workers comp, we'd get it on the books. Cause it was also very often time sensitive. And then from there, we would dig into all the other stuff that they have. And, you know, what I was trying to get the reps. So for me, because 90 plus percent of the leads in our business were inbound, you know, I didn't want them doing anything other than talk to you. Yeah, just close it. We used like this, we called it the one call closed process and video proposals to sell. So we sold on video proposals. And never wanted my reps to talk to a prospect more than once. It happened, but the goal was, and we actually got it. The highest mark we had was 63% of 102 accounts were sold with the rep only talking to the prospect one time. That's insane. That was our highest. That's amazing. I mean, you crushed that first experience. Let's double click into the bundle for, cause this is classic bundling. And I think when you look at it in a buyer centric, which I write a lot about in the book and stuff, it's like, how do you be buyer centric versus sales centric, which will help you build a better business and more durable business. When you look at this decision from buyer centric way, it's like, you just take the extreme options here, which is like, can I bundle everything with you guys, have all three policies, or why not have the best policy and here, here, with three different agencies? And what is, what's the bundling advantage? And obviously there's, you know, I'm curious what you say to that. And I have a follow on to that, but like I imagine there's just like, you know, administrative shit, you know, three different relationships. I imagine there's some discounting around bundling, like talking through what you guys were doing. That's essentially, I mean, the good news was, because people were coming to us and it wasn't based on ads. So we weren't, we weren't wedging in with an ad. It was all content marketing. So I had people that had watched, and this is insane, 30 videos on YouTube before they'd call us. So like they were already closed, right? So like what I would tell my team is like, guys, we're not selling them anything. We're validating that they're decision to buy from us and taking the order. That's what we're doing. And, but what I found, so based on this process, I was able to get a new rep who would come in at a 30 to 40% close ratio. And when we taught them the one called close process, we would get them north of 80%. So they were closing north of 80% of our qualified leads. When, and I wanted to bundle. So I wanted to, I mean, because I know the numbers. It's easier, it's less calls, it's less time, it's more money, it's higher retention. I know all the math, but what I found, and I was never able to get my head around this was, if someone called me for a workers comp policy because they had a problem with their workers comp, if I injected, hey, send me your liability and your property and your auto too, close ratio will go down approximately 10 points. I totally agree with you. I think if we could run a scientific experiment, running those two sales motions side by side, what you landed on with the land and only focus on workers comp is absolutely the right decision of the first call. And my follow up question that I wanted to insect with you was thinking through now the intention, now you've got them closed and you wanna go to the bundle. What was the biggest block, what was the biggest reason for lack of success? No more acute pain. Would you be able to get them back on the meeting? Yeah, so it would just be ghosting. Because remember, a lot of these guys with a truck with three workers with them doing landscaping. Right, cool. So I think that's what I figured, and that's when you have to, this gets down to this really cool stuff about sales process design, is you have to really isolate down to this step and this psychological moment and strategize around that. So it's like, we got them on the land, sign contract payment, we gotta get them to the bundle, and the blocker is getting back on the phone. And so like, what can we do there? So now what I'm trying to think is, in that moment of the land, what's the offer that is like, they have to get back on the phone with me after this is done? It's kind of, I don't know what it is. It's like, hey, I, there's gotta be something in there. I wonder if like, this could get into like moral hazard, manipulative slimy stuff, but like, did you ever try, hey Ryan, hope you're doing well, I know it's been six weeks. There's a little issue on the policy. Could you, my email may be back with a good time to talk. I didn't ever try that, but I would say we tried a lot of stuff around it. So the best success was table setting the round out without asking for the business. So- Sure, I like that. I like that. That's classic. You know what's in there. Yeah. Yeah. Understand what the portfolio actually looks like. Yeah. And then you just kind of say, hey, and if everything goes smoothly, I know you got liability and property, I'll come back to you in about a month. Yes. And we can get that all squared away too. Right. Cause like I was a big, a sumptive seller. Yeah, good. I think it's the easiest psychological help from a sales perspective. And so we would just kind of assume the sale a month later. And that worked, but it was definitely, it was definitely a challenge. We had to use, you know, we used all the kind of drip campaigns. Yeah, yeah, good. We'll go to outreach. I wanted to abstract, cause I know some people on insurance, I'd be like, oh, this is cool. I'm gonna play with this. And I want to abstract this out for everyone else into some principles here. There's two things that happen there. And this has to do with platform sales and bundle sales, where I have a company right now that's crushing, that's completely messing this up. They have a platform with five features. And the reps are just like getting these customers on the call and being like, rushing to tell them about all the features. And I know the close rate is one third of what it could be. And it's like, there's tons of data that shows what you've done is correct in a bundle platform offering that that's your unique advantage. You have to do deep discovery to understand the module or two modules that are most applicable and spend 80% of the call on that. And then it's like a before they leave, oh, by the way, just want to make sure you're aware of this, this and this. We're not going to talk about that now. Don't focus on that route. Just want to make sure you're aware of it. And then to your point, you're kind of qualifying some of the other stuff. So it's just this like, don't try to get through it all, lean toward the, that's an abstract point. The other one that's coming out here to Ryan is aligning the sales, the point of a sales process is not to get your product out there and pitch your product is to help the buyer buy. And one of the fundamentals of any strong, I talk about this in the science of scaling book, one of the key foundations of every good sales process, designing a buyer journey. People have their pitch deck, objection handling, discovery guide, qualifying matrix. No one has a buyer journey. And that's the framework. And like it's coming to life here on what Ryan's saying, where if you did a buyer insurity of a policy buyer, in the beginning, they're just like, trying to figure out what workers comp to get. And Ryan's crush that was his content marketing. Now they bought his working cop. Guess what's next? They need to understand the advantages of bundling and why like the cost savings. So his marketing is totally different. Now he's doing drip campaigns. Right? So just like some abstract principles on this mini case we're teaching right now, that like applies to no matter if you're selling software, pharmaceuticals or tractors. Yes. And I completely agree. I, so I tested, so I had built a sales script for them, literally tested every word in a script and every word. And I'd have different reps, work in different versions and all this kind of stuff. You know what the ultimate, the biggest jump in close ratio was the very first question that we asked, which was quite simply, hey Mark, thank you for choosing Rogue Risk. My name's Ryan Hanley. What's going on? How can I help? Beautiful. And then you shut. Yes. Up. Yes. Like teaching silence to salespeople. It's like a superpower and it's the hardest thing in the world to do. And I would literally say to them, shut up like in a nice way. But like, no one cares that we have 50 carriers. No one cares that you've been in the business for 17 years. Right. Like nobody cares. Exactly. Guys standing outside of a job site and he needs a workers comp policy to get fucking paid. Like just shut up and listen to him. He'll literally tell you. And that's, and this is my question, for having run so many sales teams and work with so many founders, right? I get a lot of questions, because in my past about like, what do you do when you have a process that works and you have a talented salesperson who seemingly wants to make the process their own and you know they're not maximizing because of it, right? I get that tension between, do I just go hardcore, like, you're not doing it, you're out? Or is it, do I coach them? Like, how do we coach up that talented but underperforming salesperson? Like, what's the best way to maximize their performance? That was a beautiful question. In my first book, elaborated on a statistical study I did where after hiring 200 sales people, I had quantified all the interview assessments and scored everyone on a one to 10 on eight different attributes. And then over time was able to correlate that to success. It took me two years to figure this one out, but it became the number one attribute that I interviewed for. And it's rare for me to find a sales context where it isn't a top three if not number one. Coachability. So the answer to your question, dude, is like, there are some hiring attributes that you have to be super precise on because if you hire them and they have the negative of it, it takes a psychology degree to unwind it. And you just gotta like suss those out. A classic one is like people that are new to sales. Like some people have call reluctance, you know, they get anxiety. And that does take kind of, it's something in your wiring of a childhood, you have to go to a psychologist to like fix it. Versus like product knowledge learning, like, okay, we can get there. You know what I mean? But coachability, the biggest answer to your question, Ryan, is make sure that's a huge part of your interview. And like, I just say, hey, listen, hey, Ryan, love your resume, love the 15 minute screen. I'm gonna have you come in the office. I think you're great. Part of the interview that we're gonna do is I'm gonna send you our training manual and we're gonna do a role play. I'm gonna send you a LinkedIn profile as well for a prospect and we're gonna do a role play and just be prepared for that. And so we'll do the role play in the interview and then there's a bunch of things I'm testing in there. But after the role play, I'm like, okay, Ryan, great job. Like how do you think you did? I'm letting himself assess because their ability to self assess is a attribute of their coachability. Like low coachability people think they did great. High coachability people are very analytical about their self assessment. And then I coach them and I say, hey, here's, in every interview I give one piece of positive feedback on the role play and one piece of negative. Cause I don't want them to think that they're bombing and they have an anxiety attack. So the positive thing was great rapport. The negative thing was you could have had deeper discovery on the problem set. And I coach them and I watch how they pay attention. And then I either repeat it in the moment or I'll say, listen, I'm putting you through to round two. We're gonna do another role play as part of that interview. And I'm getting a real good view on coachability. Now that's the biggest thing because it's really hard to take an uncoachable person and make them coachable. If I do, if someone sneaks through and like, you know, there's God, there's so much to this dude. First off, like there's instilling a coaching culture in your organization. So many people on the hamster wheel and they're reactive and they're on calls and they never get to it. First day of every month is coaching setup day. As manager, as director of all my managers, I'm like, all right, we're going through each reps, diagnosis, coaching plan, and how we're gonna measure how we did with that coaching and involvement. And we're looking at data, everyone to get, and the manager's with the rep working on that. Like, hey, Ryan, like let's look at your data after all this and like your reflections. What do you want to work on this month? Like urgency development, great. How should we do it? Great, I'm gonna jump into three calls. Let's book those three calls right now for the month. So my whole coaching booked in the month. So that's like proactively driving a coaching culture. And the final wrinkle to your question, Ryan, is like, God forbid someone's like, dude, thanks for the coaching, but I'm good. I have my process. Then you just need a culture where it's like, performance plans are factual. First day of the job, welcome to the company. Here's the CEO, here's the commission plan, here's the product, here's the way you get fired. Is if you are, miss your quota, two quarters in a row, if you're below 80%, you're on a performance plan. And if in that next quarter, you're not above 90%, you're fired. No hard feelings, it's just how it works. So then the system's there to catch it. And if I got a non-coacher, then it's like, okay, dude, you do your thing. And that person watches me sitting with Julie, sitting with Bob, sitting with whatever, 90% of the time they come back crawling on me a week later with their tail between their legs. So there's a couple of nuggets for you. Yeah, no, I love how, establishing how we break up at the beginning. That was a big unlock for me in my hiring process because you'd have people, when you outlined, because when you outlined, okay, here's all the best case scenarios, blah, blah, blah, and everyone loves that, right? Triggers on how much you do, and you got your scaled retention numbers that we talked about, and that's all great. Oh, there's an equity plan if you hit stage three. When I implemented the, and here's what happens if you don't hit your numbers, you'd get people who self-select out at that point because they know they can't coast, right? Like just having that in there will get people to self-select out. That was a, I mean, I completely agree with that part. I know a lot of people don't do that, and it was a huge unlock because the coasters will go, oh wait, they're actually gonna track my progress, and I'm gonna have real hurdles if I don't hit my numbers. Like I don't wanna work here, I wanna go. Keep that at the competition. What a great way to build your culture. Yeah, the other thing we did, which I think I've talked about very briefly on the show, but I'm interested in how you would do this in tech as well. I created monthly profitability scorecards for every sales rep. So one of the things I realized was that I felt a disconnect between our reps and their contribution to the overall growth of the company. And on both sides, right? If they're not doing their job, the negative impact, and on the top side, their positive impact. Perfect. We created these little PDFs, and every month we'd send one out to every, and it would be basically their salary, their benefits, their commission split on new and renewal. So the total cost for the company versus how much actual top line revenue they were bringing in. And we gave them this net profitability score, and then pulled it out month over month. And I'll tell you, our high performers saw that, and it was like we put Elon Musk level rocket fuel up their ass. So good. They just took off, cause they were like, wait, I'm contributing five grand, 10 grand. They saw their profitability number go up, and those accumulators, those people that are driven just by progress, they wanna see that up into the right, they couldn't freaking handle it. Cause now they had like, it was almost like, there was like this sense of pride of like, look how much profit I put back for the company. It was really cool. So good man. Yeah, that came from a mentor of mine, but that was a huge unlock for us as well. I think it's brilliant, and I'll abstract it for everyone on here, which is like, it's totally incorrect in the way we all measure our salespeople, which is just like, you put it up on the board, how many new sales did you generate this quarter? That's a part of the story. What you're saying, Ryan, is like the end picture in your business profitability, which is pretty much everyone, but like, for a high-blitz scaling business, like it's really like the way we talk about it is in unit economics contribution, right? And like, which is a big part of it, like the LTV getting back to that. How much you sold in a quarter gives zero visibility into the lifetime value of what your customers, and that needs to be more of the end game, which is what you're getting at. So like, where I see it translate into other business, like, yeah, fine, measure the quarterly revenue, new revenue from these reps, but also measure their LIR of their install base. Measure the LTV, the retention of their install base, right? So I think that's the key point there, is like the microscope we put on and classically measuring sales teams is like, incomplete. I wanna pivot away from this sales thought experiment as we kind of come into the close of our conversation. You went from private to public to academic to investor, and have seen this incredibly broad swath and an incredible number of companies. What are some of the biggest differences in mindset, and they can either be positive or negative between those different places, right? Because I know most people tend to sit in one of those buckets, right? They just live in private, or they get into public, they just live in public. And like, what can they be learning from each other? You know, very freeform, but... Wow, man, yeah, there's a lot in there. Thank you. That's a cool question, because like, you're right, there's not a lot of people that sit deeply in all those places. I guess I'll try to give like the general, and I hope I don't offend people through this, but I'm just gonna try to generalize the average of those that are sitting in each of those. Private, it's a hustle. You work your ass off. There's really amazing people. It's a little more athletes than specialists. You don't see as much of like, I did this one little job for 25 years, and on the expert, it's a little bit of like, my job could change next month, and I love that. Big upside. Can I just clarify something? You called that athletes versus specialists. I've never heard that type of person referred to as an athlete before. Is there something there? Yeah, for sure. We talk about that a lot in broad spectrums. It's like, think of your first salesperson to start up with five engineers, what they have to do, and compare that to the hundredth salesperson hire into a 10,000 person company. Like their job is like, they have the Midwest territory for the SMBs with a coach in the pitch deck. The first rep at the, they have nothing. I mean, it's like, that's an athlete. I mean, they're doing everything from like, setting meetings, building scripts, like setting up the CRM, like doing the first demo, like talking to the engineers on what to build. That's an athlete versus the hundredth hire who's like, dude, you're gonna run the San Francisco healthcare territory for us in mid-market. That's a specialist, right? And you could translate that into R&D, finance, whatever. So yeah, that's what you have in there. I like that stuff. Personally, that's where I'm most attracted to. Once you approach public and go public, very polished, very buttoned up. The politics comes in quite a bit. A little less risky. People who wanna hit doubles consistently through their career rather than like massive home runs, which is fine. I mean, I'm not offending anyone. It's just like, this is what you start to see. Little more nine to five. Just a lot of like, more about like, it's a lot about setting up systems and people movement stuff as opposed to like writing code and selling deals. Cause you're just so far from it. You're setting up the strategy. And also like, in the beginning, I would say 10% strategy, 90% execution. Once you get to public, it's 90% strategy, 10% execution. Cause these like, when you're like six people, you're like, okay, like, I have an idea. Good, let's try it. Two days later, we've tried it and we know the answer. When you're in like running a 7,000 person company, you're like, I have an idea, let's try it. It takes you 18 months to try it. Cause you're like mobile, you know what I mean? So, and that's why McKinsey and BCG make a lot of money cause the strategy is so important. Okay, so you get in an academia, I mean, again, it's just a lot slower paced. I mean, and in rightly so, like the people who are like tenure tracked, dude, like you're gonna take any question that we asked today, like the optimal way to like specialize your reps. That's a five year research study for a professor to make tenure. You're spending five years researching every single angle of that to come up with new law. Which is like, you know, for me, I'm like, I just can't, I have ADHD, like career age, I can't do that. There are some people, but it's important. Cause that's where breakthroughs in medicine and economics and all this stuff came from was that rigor. So that, I mean, this is really important today where it's like, you know, like we didn't talk much about this, but like, I think there's a ton of energy being put into building and driving the new AI technology and next to zero energy and understanding the implications. And I think academia can play a massive role in that because of just the way they're set up, right? So, so like that, that's what it's like there. It's all about truth. It's very abstract. It helps you a lot of operators think they know the truth, but it's only the truth in their context, whether it's tech or insurance or SM or US versus Asia, you know, North America versus Asia in academia, you know, truth abstract. Cause you have to look at it from every, you know, get what I'm saying? Like when I talk about like, this is how sales works. Here's a first principle of sales. I've pressure tested that in North America, Africa and Asia. I've pressure tested that in a 10 billion dollar business and a 10, 10 dollar business. And I've pressure tested that in healthcare and tech, right? And that's where academia like shines. And then the last part is, before you ask the following is like VC, pattern recognition. You know, dude, like we look at 500 companies for every investment we make. So it's about founder picking. It's about validating that's a big enough market. And I would say one of the big surprises is, there's two things. Just because we have money to invest and you're looking for money, that's not a fit. You have to remember that like the MIT endowments, my main anchor, they look at a thousand VCs, they pick 30 to do business with. They pick those 30 to fill a hole. Like there's, they need consumer B2B life sciences. They need growth, they need pre-seed. So when I walk in and say, I'm a B2B software investor at the seed stage and you come to me with a life sciences business at the growth phase, you might have a sick business. I can't do that deal. So it's like, so just you have to, there's a qualification there. And I think the other thing, yeah, and there's like fund math associated with it. And I would also say there's like a little bit of a capitalization fit. Like I said at the beginning, like there's a lot of people that show up with a great idea, but I'm like, don't raise venture capital. Yeah. Because there's certain ideas that should be bootstrapped. There's certain ideas that should be private equity. And that's kind of a surprise too. That was one of the biggest things that I had to learn in the hard way in my career. So I was telling you, I scaled my business and I ended up selling it. Coming out of COVID, a whole bunch of stuff happening. Just over 24 months, we spend the business and sell it, which is great. Except I sold it to the wrong people. And I didn't, if you've never been through selling a business like that before, and I didn't have anyone, I didn't have anyone in my corner who had enough experience to kind of tell me, look, like these guys are saying the right things, but structurally what they're going to want out of your company just doesn't align with, you know, going back to incentives, what they were trying to do. And it was friction, you know, from three months in till I hit my first exit trigger, it was just friction, friction, friction. How, you know, this was a huge eye-opener to me because in my mind, like I was selling my business to these people who were going to inject it with all this capital and I was rolling equity into this, you know, P-back company and, you know, we're going to the moon. And then come to find the reality hits of, you know, P-economics and their obligations to their LPs and all this kind of stuff. And it becomes this major issue. How, what are just some reverse vetting metrics? I'm a founder, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm going out, I either need money or I've built this business for seven years and now I'm looking to actually, you know, maybe be acquired or merge with someone. Like I know this is a very deep question. I get it. You probably do hours and hours. Yeah. But what are just some of those, the things commonly missed that lead to friction post sale? What are some of those little pieces that people commonly miss? Yeah, I mean, we can talk about the exit path for a moment. And like, obviously if like this is just a transaction with nothing after you don't have to think too much about it. If like you're selling this thing for 500 million, you're getting it cash on the day it closes, then you're, you don't have to think too much about it. Other than like, yeah, you want to take care of employees, you want to take care of your customers. So like you go on and know a little bit there, but personally it's not as much. But people get burned a lot here because they just think that like, okay, I've been growing this business 20% for the last 10 years. Like as long as I keep growing it for 20% for the next three, I'm going to hit each of my exit triggers. But they don't realize that like, they're no longer solely in charge. Like this gets embedded into the system. So like, you got to first off just appreciate that. And then like dig into those questions. Like what are we doing here? Like once this deal closes, are you leaving us alone here in Albany and let us do our thing? Like how are we, what is the integration path? Can we just run? Or do I now have a boss? Am I, is my sales team gone and I'm selling through this team? How do these products work together? What's the fact? Like so many of those questions need to be walked through if you're being dependent on exit triggers to diligence your personal situation. And like that same narrative can carry to through like a fundraise. Like dude, like, okay, cool. Like, okay, I want to invest 30 million at a 500 million evaluation. Okay, great. Like, like, like, is there, is there any like, is there any preference stack on that? Like is it clean, blah, blah, blah? Is you taking a board seat, blah, blah? Dude, that's like not the whole conversation. Like once the deal's done, what is the plan for next year revenue wise? How many sales people do we need to hire? Like I want to make sure we have that discussion to make sure philosophically we're in sync so that we don't have that boardroom eruption. Cause I would say like boardroom eruption is a top five killer in these like growth journeys. Yeah. The experience for me was, and I think part of it is I'm probably a little too trusting as a human in general. And what I found very interesting was they bought me because we were lean, mean selling machine. We just sold. We were fucking good at it. And I thought when they bought us that why wouldn't you just want to keep pulling that lever? We had a cash machine, right? It's the insurance industry. We had figured out how to sell with a CAC that was like near zero. It was literally like just my time. So like we're talking like near zero CAC. I mean, we were crushing. And what I found very interesting is all of a sudden I started getting calls about the professional nature of my tech stack and the human resources guidebook and hasn't been properly delivered to the employees. And all of a sudden I got a $8,000 enterprise IT cost associated to my budget line. Cause if I wanted to call tech support to help them with my Mac, you know what I mean? Like it was, I started looking at that going, wow, like I'm 42 years old and I feel like a baby. I feel like I'm 18 again learning these lessons like right on the nose. And I just couldn't wrap my head around a 17 person board meeting in which I was told my CRM wasn't professional enough. I was like, I don't even understand what that means. And I'm also hardcore ADHD, Irish Catholic, I'm a sailor like, you know, so I'm struggling just to deal with these people who I don't think have the brain capacity to keep up with what I'm doing to begin with. And now they're telling me that I need to go from, you know, a $15 a month user seat CRM to Salesforce, which is $275 a user seat. And I got to eat that, that cost on my balance sheet. Can I just go back? Like you bought me to make money. Can I just go back to doing that thing? Like that's all. I had no idea what founder life would look like post sale. And it is my, one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made in business is not spending more time on like, what does my day to day look like when I put my signature on that piece of paper? And I say that only because we've hit this point and it's just a cautionary tale of founders. Like that is such, like having someone else who's buying you describe what they think your world looks like, that is like question number one now. I'm helping a couple other businesses raise money. And I'm like, guys, what do they think? Now what do you think your life is gonna look like? What do they think your life is gonna look like? I didn't ask that question and I, you know, it was brutal. I think that's the abstract takeaway for everyone here. On that point is like, during an investment or an acquisition, 90% of that work is done to like transact that thing. And you have to do way more work like 50-50 on post transaction, post investment, post transaction life. That needs to be done. And it's key because like most people go through these things one, two or three times in their life. This isn't like a sales call that you just like skim your knees for the first 10 and then you eventually get it. So yeah, that's a great takeaway. All right. I mean, I wanna ask you about AI but we don't have a lot of time left and it's such a big question. Yeah. I almost just want a table. Yeah, yeah, I think you do. We have a lot. It's a huge bubble. It's a huge bubble. Lean as an, oh, a huge bubble right now. Yeah. Just like it's gonna define the whole world. You have to start playing with it. It's gonna slow you down at first. You have to be patient, become an AI enabled leader, seller, whatever. I think like a lot of what you read about in the right now is like more pets.com and web then than it is Google. Like you just do the read, just go into chat GPD and ask, do first movers usually win or do fast followers? Just ask them that and read all the studies and then you'll find out. With that little treasure hunt in mind, Mark, this has been an incredible conversation. I appreciate the hell out of you, man. I mean, I could pepper you with questions and have this back and forth for not for hours, dude. I love the way you think about the business. The book is the science of scaling. I'm just gonna advocate that we can't go off gut anymore. There are gut decisions we have to make, but to do this, right, you need math. You need to work in the numbers and have a real plan. I love the way that you've outlined this. Besides going to Amazon, picking up the book, where's the best place to go deeper into your world? Yeah, LinkedIn, I'm very active and thank you for the plug, Ryan, and just wanna remind everyone that I'm donating 100% of the proceeds to mental health. So I hope that the reason you buy it is for the scaling curiosity, but just know you're doing good as well. I appreciate you, man. Wish you nothing but the best. Thanks for coming on the show. We're outta here. Peace. ["The Last Song of the Year"] At AJ Bell, we believe investing is for everyone. And when we say everyone, we mean your dad, Dan, Danielle, Dean, Dave, Del, Del's delivery driver, Denise, Denise's dentist, Dinesh, and Devon's strongest man, Donathan. Donathan? Donathan, that can't be right. Donathan? Well, whatever your name is, if you're a real person, investing is for you too. AJ Bell, feel good investing. The value of your investments can go up or down.