Confronting a Gay Historian

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Not a flyer. How you doing? I'm doing okay. How are you doing? I'm okay. I'm a little mad at you because you haven't invited me to see your garden yet this season. And I haven't. It's an open invitation. Oh. See. That's where I fucked up. Bass. That's where I messed up. Well, and you, you were here and gone and here and gone. So. Yeah. As you can. Yeah. You're welcome. This is the, you're, you're kind of launching the classic criticism of me, which is you're not here. What are you talking about? Precisely. Yeah. Yeah. I think the last time I saw you, you told me that you had gone, you had gone on a road trip to Southern Missouri and you had avoided the interstates. Yes. I went to Cape Girardeau, which is of course on the other side of the street, the state. And I'll do anything to avoid I 70 especially. And it took, it was eight hours one way and nine hours back. Yeah. Cause you basically took local streets. Right. It took the 40 mile an hour curvy, windy, hilly roads, but it was beautiful. Yeah. For the first three hours. And then by that point you're like, I really want to get home. Yeah. But not bad enough to go over to I 70. No. And I love that about you. Get out of here. You see this fly. I love that about you. You, you also, well, we should tell people how we met. Yes. We met cause I was Holmes and I were researching a TV show that we were writing for Hulu. They didn't make it. Shout out to Hulu. But we were making a show for Hulu and we were writing these two characters that were older lesbians in Kansas City and we were like, Oh man, we really want to like get this right. Like I wonder what kind of places they would have hung out at. We were thinking about doing like some flashback like bottle episodes of their life or whatever. So I cold emailed you and was like, Hey, could we come down to the university? Cause you run the queer archive of, is it gay and lesbian archive of Mid America? Yes. Did I get it? Very good. Yes. Let's go. And you founded it. Yeah. And run it. Co-founded it. Yeah. At UMKC. Yeah. And I cold emailed you and was like, Hey, you don't know me, but I'm writing this TV show and I live in town and could we come and get a tour of the archive? And could you tell us some stuff? And did you, did you like that or were you annoyed by that? Oh no, that's that was, it was fine. It's like, okay, I wonder what this is about and if it's going to go anywhere. And cause I get emails with some frequency and you just never know what they're going to turn into. And, and then you all showed up. It was you and Holmes and one of our producers and our showrunners. So Deirdre and Lady J. Lady J. Yeah. And four hours later, we were still talking. Yeah. Well, I think you didn't like us when we first showed up. Well, I didn't know what to expect. I think you didn't like us because when, when I feel like when we came in and you can tell me if I'm wrong, but I feel like when we came in, there was a little bit of a wall. Well, again, you never know. Yeah. Especially with a cold, with a cold email or a cold contact. You just never know how serious people are and what they're, what their work is going to evolve into. And so I'm always a little formal at the beginning and then. As you guys were talking and, and, and exploring, I could see, it's like, okay, this is the real deal. These guys are serious about it. They really want to know stuff and they really are doing what they say they're going to do. So yeah. Yeah. When we came in, it was more like you were, you were giving us like work, Stuart. You were like, always. You were like, hello and welcome. Yeah. And then an hour and a half later, you were like, girl. I was like, all right, we got it. We got it. And then we became friends and now we pretty much have coffee or something every time I'm in town. Yeah. Yeah. That's, am I the, am I, okay. How many friends are you making through the archive? Like where do I rank in, in the rankings? Uh, it's very atypical for me to maintain a sort of longer term relationship with somebody who comes in simply because their projects are finite and they're not that interested. And so yeah, I mean, we have coffee or whatever every time you're in town. And I always look forward to it. It was very diplomatic. You didn't say I was number one, but I felt it. I felt it. I felt it in your heart. Way up there. There we go. So, okay, you have like a billion stories that I think are so interesting. Will you, you, I'm trying to give, I usually we don't like introduce our guests because they're, you know, a comedian or something. Am I boring? We know what a comedian is, but you have such an interesting job because you run the archive and you also teach what do you, what classes are you teaching? Um, I teach a queer American history class and I've been teaching it for about 10 years. And the last two or three years I taught it over at the Kansas City Art Institute. And this year with our different political environment, I haven't been able to get any traction at my school. And so I can't get anybody to pay me to teach it. And the paying is not a big deal, but I can't get them to offer it for credit. Right. I guess I should say. And so this fall I'm going to teach it for free. I'm just going to teach it on Sunday afternoons, open it up to the public and let the students who I've kind of been promising for the past couple of years that this class is coming, let them know so that they can, so that they can participate as well. What is the, what is the hesitation? What's changed? Cause you used to teach it for credit there, didn't you? Yes. Um, but as a, it was, it was kind of buried because it was a Gen Ed class. Um, everybody's paranoid. Everybody's paranoid about the DEI and the language that the AI is looking for. So, um, they're not really interested in offering a queer American history class. Yeah. Um, so it's, it's a weird time. And so I just, I just, I, cause these kids are so hungry for it. And I want to give them what they're hungry for. And it's, it's, it's a way to perpetuate the history they're trying to erase. Come learn the history they're trying to erase. Yeah. Well, I think that's, you and I have talked a little bit about this privately, but I think, you know, there's not much good that comes out of times like this where like, you know, authoritarian like fascism is surging globally, by the way, not just us. Um, but one of the maybe silver linings that comes out of it is I do think people with marginalized identities, um, particularly, not particularly, but the, as we know more intimately queer people, uh, do get really involved and passionate and start to look at the past and start to connect more. I think we're, we almost have like an oppositional when things are good. It felt like right after gay marriage got legalized, a bunch of queer people went, all right, we're done. I'm tapping out. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And as things turn more oppressive and you see this repeated over and over in the history of this community, as things get more oppressive, then you start to see every surgeon's pushback against that oppression. And one of the important things about teaching the history is that you need to learn, you need to learn from people's successes and people's mistakes, activists, uh, successes and activists mistakes. And so you can look back and see what worked when times were even worse and what didn't work and what you can adapt to your current situation. Yeah. Yeah. What do you, I mean, I assume you probably, because you're talking to college students, uh, I assume there's a certain level of like, tumorism or nihilism about the moment that we're in. I mean, what do you think about the, the moment that we're in and political hope? And, you know, it has been really, really surprising to me, um, because I engage with a lot of queer students on, on different levels. And I just thought after the beginning of this year that, uh, our trans kids, especially with just spiral and just, you know, and, and, and I've anticipated being able to see it in their, in their behavior and their demeanor. It has been the exact opposite. Really? They're just chugging along. They're just doing their thing. They're just moving forward. It was, it's been really, really surprising to me. And, uh, I, I'm really kind of astounded. Yeah. Because they have that fortitude to just kind of shrug it off and say to themselves, I'm presuming that I'm just going to be who I am. You know, at this point, um, existence is resistance. And so just exist and continue and things will change. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you, you have talked to me a little bit about like, you've seen it be really bad for us and then pretty good for us and then really bad for us. And it's kind of this, can you talk a little bit about that? Like roller coaster ride? It's, it's, it's a pendulum, you know? And the pendulum swings in the wrong direction and things get really bad. And in part because of the resistance to that oppression, the pendulum starts to move back in the other direction and things get really good. And looking at the, looking at the history, you, you, you can tell, you can see it. Um, and you can see the, the searches of the activism that we've been talking about. Um, bubble up as, as things get, uh, get challenging. Yeah. When did, when did you come out? Oh, Lord. Um, was it? Well, in my head, in my head, it was third grade. I knew when I was in third grade and then. Now, how'd you know in third grade? Cause same, I, that was about the time that I figured out. I just knew that I preferred the company of boys. Yeah. Shout out by the way. I know that's right. You know, yeah. Pete, for me, I'll mention right around that time, they, I don't know if, I don't know why kids do this and what is wrong with kids. I don't know if you guys were doing this, but we would like, they would have like marriages on the playground and people would like get married. They'd be like, we're going to the tree for like Caitlin and Derek are going to get married today. It's not like the school was doing it. It's like the kids themselves, like a sort of a heteronormative Lord of the flies situation where they're like, we're doing, did y'all have this? We were doing this. And I remember that I was meant to get married to a girl and I was like, I was like, I don't see it. I was like, I'm kind of rocking with Tyler in a bigger way than that. And I just remember being like that. There's something off about that. Everyone else seems very keen on this and I'm not rocking with it at all. Yeah. But third grade, you know, you were just kind of, yeah. And then, uh, came out to some close friends in high school and that would have been God, 1978. Yeah, let's go. Yeah. And how did that go? Uh, it went fine. Um, though the one date I ever went on with a girl, uh, was she was a very good friend and of course then, um, and it wasn't because of me, but she, uh, eventually, um, came out as lesbian. I know that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How was the date? Uh, I imagine she had a great time. It was fine. I would get guys. Um, I think we went to a movie and then we might have gone to dinner and I took her home. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I honestly don't remember. A gentleman. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. So then, okay, so you come out to some friends and then we, you weren't in Kansas City yet at this time, right? You were. No, I was in Springfield, Missouri. Yeah. You were down in, uh, in Southern Missouri where I went to college. Um, so then when did you move to Kansas City? I moved to Kansas City to go to school at UMKC in 1980. 1980. And then bounce back and forth a little bit. I went to SMS or now Missouri state for a year and then came back up here and I've been here since the mid 80s since 85. Yeah. Yeah. What was, what was your entry into the, what was your entry into the queer scene? Like, like how did you get involved with? So in Springfield down on the square, there was a gay bar called the galaxy. Come on. And Lord, uh, I was 19 and I went, I was terrified, but I was, I really wanted to go to a bar. And so I went on like a Tuesday night. And of course no one was there. So I walk in and I sit, it's a long bar on the left at the end of which was the dance floor. And there were rows of tables. A row of tables, the opposite of the bar. And so I just sat at a table, just sat there and kind of looked around. And this young man came up and said, do you always come to bars and not drink? And so he bought me a drink and we sat at a. Okay, let's go. Yeah. Game. I love that. So that was my introduction to, um, to the, the world of bars. But, um, prior to that, the. The sort of public cruising area was, um, was Phelps Grove Park. And of course you didn't have to be of age to drive around Phelps Grove Park. Right. And. Was I was much younger than 19. Yeah. Let's just, I was, I was about 16. Um. When I, when I put two and two together and had access to a car. Yeah. This is your big entry at that point. This is the big entry point into the queer scene. Yeah. Is such as it was in Springfield, Missouri in 1978. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wasn't that, it feels like that was kind of the norm, right? It was like, I don't think you were meeting friends at the cruising park. Were you, was there anyone, did you feel like there was a culture at the cruising spots of like, yeah, you weren't like staying in touch with anybody. Uh, no, it was a very short term. Okay. What I thought. Yeah. Yeah. But the good, the gay bars, I mean, the gay bars had to have been way different back then because there were no, it wasn't like now where it's like, I feel like they're so almost phased out. Well, and, uh, the bars in Springfield, I mean, there was the one bar, right? And then moved up here and, um, just, it was a different kind of experience because the crowd was, it was, it was a much bigger community and there were just more opportunities. There were, there were more than one bar. Yeah. And I mean, there were niche bars and so it was, it was a different kind of experience. Yeah. But it was the only, the only place to potentially meet longer term kinds of, uh, potentially longer term relationships. Of course, there were cruising spots up here, uh, as well, the Liberty Memorial and the Plaza and some other places, but, um, the, the bars were where you were, you know, trolling for a husband, essentially. Yeah. Yeah. Well, when I was 17, 16, 17, we were on, uh, Craigslist and Grindr. That's where we were. That's where we were cruising. Interesting. So it was all digital by then. Right. We weren't, I would never in a million years when I was a teenager, if you told me to show up to a park to meet men, I'd put up in my, okay. Well, and quite honestly, you didn't necessarily even have to go to a park. I mean, if you, if you were walking down the street and you happen to catch someone's eye in the right way, um, you find yourself 10, 15 minutes later, uh, at their home. Come on, come on, brother. Come on, brother. It was a long time ago and it was a very different era. Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, that, that's just how easy it was. And of course there was, there was a sense of, of danger about it all. Cause you, I mean, you were, you were making yourself very vulnerable. Yeah. And a sense of danger, but also a sense of, uh, a certain level of trust with the other person. Yeah. Yeah. Were there, okay. So you're, you're hoping to catch the eye in the right way. I mean, that's classic. I know that, but like, was there any other, were there any other tells like, how did you know a gay guy? How would you spot a gay guy? Just the way they walk into alcohol is, yeah. There is gay dark, right? Yeah. Just checking, just checking. I didn't know. Well, and, and back in the day for certain proclivities, there was a whole coding system. I mean, there was the whole hanky system. What's that? Oh, you've never heard of this? I, so, okay. So, um, so for, uh, certain, uh, sexual behaviors that you were interested in, yeah, um, there was a, there was a code, uh, of hankies. Um, you know, the Kurchis, like the red kerchief, um, you would put it in your back pocket. And so a red one meant something. A yellow one meant you were into golden showers. A black one meant you were into something else. And a blue one meant you were into something else. And, uh, if you wore your keys on, let's see, keys on the left LA keys on the left, you were active keys on the right, you were passive. So you were top or bottom to use today's terminology. Right. Activo Pasevo, if you're in Mexico, right? There were little cards that were printed up, uh, uh, with the hanky code. No. Yeah. They're handing out cards being like, here's your hanky. I remember where they handed them out, but yeah, I've seen, I, we may have some in the collection. Yeah. Oh, I need to see that. Yeah. I need to get back to the collection. I need to see some of this stuff. That is so funny. Yeah. Not the keys, not the keys on the left being on the top. Right. That is so funny. That's the kind of shit I'm talking about. We're not doing that anymore. No. What you don't need to. We don't need to, but also there's a, people aren't even meeting up without seeing like people are sharing albums on Grindr before they even talk of like every nude photo that they've taken of their body. Right. I'm like, I actually don't need that. I'd rather be kind of surprised by, I don't know, I think it's just more fun. Well, it, it, it, yeah, you, you don't know what you're going to get. Yeah. Which is great. That's the whole point. I don't know. I just feel like this, I have a real bent against not just in gay sex and dating, just kind of in cultural gen, culture generally lately of like the crusade of certainty. We all, we want certainty about everything. And we're in the pursuit of certainty. We're like really, we're squelching out a lot of surprise and excitement in our lives by even just simple things that we all do, myself included, like, you know, looking up at every, every restaurant in a two mile radius before you pick somewhere for dinner and looking at the chairs and the vibe and the menu. Right. And, you know, looking at the artist Instagram story before you go to the concert because they're going to say when they're going on the stage, so you can miss the opener on purpose and. Really? Oh yeah. Wow. Yeah. And it, you know, I've talked about this before, but I think like that kind of certainty and that like pursuit of only doing the exact thing you want to do, it is like a real problem. And you're missing out on so much. I'm just this, just the idea of chance. You're, you're, you're eliminating all of that. Yeah. And that's the thing about chance. It can go in either direction and it can be really, really great or it can be really, really not. Yeah. And either way, you have a good story. Yeah. That's the thing. That's what I love about being a comedian is I, I think every experience is worthwhile. Yeah. Every experience worthwhile. If I have a really bad night, then I have something funny to talk about. Exactly. That's like that, but that applying that to your life more generally and being like, oh, bad experiences are worthwhile. It has value to have a night that I didn't plan on having and didn't necessarily enjoy, right? You know, right? But I think we're losing that a little bit with, you know, the, obviously the phones haven't helped, but you don't have a phone. Right. You're crazy for that one. I really want to be you so bad. You can, you can just let your phone go. Stuart, yes, you can. I tried, brother. I tried and it didn't, I tried to have a dumb phone, not even have no phone. I tried to have a dumb phone with no, you know, social media and stuff on it. I was cast aside. I was cast aside. Well, yeah, I mean, you're left out of everything. You're left out of a whole world of different kind of experience, mediated experience, but you're, you're still left out of it. Yeah. And you are disconnected. Yeah. But there's some liberation in that too. Have you ever had a cell phone? Yes. Well, how'd it go? Not well. Okay. When was it? Oh, it's been a while. 10 years ago. Yeah. I mean, I had, I had a flip phone and then I had a smartphone for a little while and I just hated it. Yeah. So yeah, all you really have is vibes and your little notebook. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a my pocket. Yeah. Yeah. I had my favorite thing about you is when we hang out and I say something that you want to remember and you pull out the notebook and start scribbling. Well, yeah, I had not that I put your new address in my notebook so I can go look it up. And help me figure out what happened. And help you figure out who lived there. Yeah. I love that I really do. I think that's, I have to email you to hang out with you. I think that's beautiful. Yeah. Well, I remember when email was introduced. Yeah. So and I'm old enough that any sort of computer interaction is really work. It has always been and in my mind will always be connected to work. And so when I'm not at work or when I don't want to feel like I'm at work, I'm not going to be connected to something that that just mimics that. Yeah. Yeah. It's not my relationship with it is very different than folks of your generation. Yeah, we grew up on it for, for a play. It was a good record creation. Yeah. Like from a very early age. Yeah, I got a Facebook and MySpace were happening when we were in, I wasn't actually on MySpace. I was somehow kind of shielded from social media a little more than a lot of people that grew up at the same time as me. Why is that? Was that because you were in Missouri and Central Missouri? Yeah, our internet was slow. Yeah. And also we were poor. Yeah. And so our computer sucked. Yeah. You know, it was like it just wasn't as like I wasn't on, I wasn't on MySpace the way that some of my friends were. I was on Facebook for sure. Yeah. But I was even a little slow to that I felt. And then I got really into it. I got really on Facebook in a big way in middle school. It was like posting full albums after every single event. Like we, I was doing the whole Facebook thing. We would take digital cameras out with us. Yeah. And we would take 120 photos of a nothing event. And then we would go home and post an entire album of it right as soon as we got home. And it would be like a picture I accidentally took of your shoe. It's going to be a problem. Right. Because you just had to do the, you plugged your camera in and did the blanket upload. Yeah. You know. Yeah. But anyway, that's not interesting. So you moved here in the mid permanently in the mid 80s. Yeah. You come here originally in 1980. Yeah. Move here permanently in the mid 80s. And then what is queer activism like in the midwest around that time? Like what is it? How do you get involved? At that point, we're just starting to see the introduction of AIDS in Kansas City in a meaningful way. And so there's no real coordinated response on the part of the community in terms of activism, really, for a couple of years, sort of 8788 with the formation of the local chapter of Act Up. And as more and more people get sick, the first community AIDS service organization was started in 85, the Good Samaritan Project. But as far as sort of visible activism, it wasn't until much later in the decade, and in particular after the March on Washington in 87, because a bunch of Kansas Cityans went. And there was a lot of, a lot of energy to do community fundraising to pay for folks to go. And then when they came back, they started a number of different groups. When you say that the AIDS kind of showed up in Kansas City, when was that and what did that look like? I mean, like what community wise, how did that come to your knowledge? Community wise. Well, the first time I ever read about AIDS was in 1982 in a gay porn magazine. I worked at a, I worked, this was in Springfield. I worked at a bookstore out on South Campbell out by Kikapu High School. And we had, we were next door to, it was a shopping center, still there, Park Rush shopping center. There was a, the only adult theater in town was right next door to us. And so we had a big collection of porn. And anyway, I had to do quality control on the gay porn. Of course. So you're just doing your job. Right. Exactly. And so the headline read gay cancer question mark. And then here, as the decade went on, I came up here, really the only reliable place to get information about new symptoms and treatment protocols and just what was going on was in the little magazine, the alternate news that they gave out at the bars every week. It was a, I call it a bar rag. It was just published for the community in it because it was distributed in bars. You know, most of the content was reporting on dark tournaments or drag shows or softball tournaments or just the kind of things that folks who went to bars were engaged in. But it was as, as things got worse, it was, like I said, the only source of up to date information, because of course you had three network news stations at that point, all of which like they, like they still are, were designed to scare people. So you weren't getting the information that you needed as a 25 year old person who was sexually active. And so, so that was, that was my reason for, for going out to bars every week, ostensibly, was to get the, was to get the alternate news. I'm here for the news. Thank you. Don't for it with me, boys. Nice try, fellas, but I'm here to read the news. Right. Right. So what was the, what was the gap between the, like the network, the traditional media news coverage of the situation and the news that the community was spreading itself? Like, what did that difference look like? The, the news that was community generated was, was really the news you needed. I mean, it was, okay, I can remember, God, I can remember this, this friend of mine and I that I would go out with because I didn't have a car. So he drove and we had read in the alternate news about the symptoms of Thresh, which is a, a condition that shows up on your tongue, like fuzzy, fuzzy on your tongue. And so we had compared notes about checking our tongues in the mirror, just to see, because this is, this is in a period when they still hadn't identified HIV. So nobody knew, nobody knew what was causing this. Yeah. And so, so it was that kind of nuts and bolts information that you found in those publications, whereas everything on TV was just reporting on the ugliness of the response on the parts of people like Jesse Helms and of course, President Reagan and just the fear and the mystery around all of it. Yeah. Yeah. It really is like every, I mean, you and I have talked about a lot of this stuff in private, but it really is always so shocking to me that gay bars were so crucial that like gay bars were really like community centers and where you actually found friends and lovers and potential partners and people were flaring and pamphleting. And that is not at all the feeling of gay bars that I get now. They're, they're crucial, of course, like they're fun and exciting and you can like find a great hookup for the night. But the way that you talk about gay bars then it just feels so much more vital. It was vital because it was, it was one of the few safe spaces as we would call them now that existed. And you could just go in and let your shoulders down and not have to be on guard. Right. And you didn't have to worry about covering anything up. And it was also a way to sort of keep tabs on the community because if you went regularly, you would get to know people by sight. And then when those people stopped showing up for a few weeks, there was concern that maybe they're sick. And that was, of course, the euphemism of just being sick. And that's how people talk about AIDS. Yeah. Yeah. And then they'd show up again. So you could read a little easier and it's like, okay, maybe they were just on a trip or something, but they're, they're okay. And I, and you're right. It was, it was a quasi kind of community center because at the same time you had, as time went on, you had activists standing there, handing out condoms and explaining why you needed to wear them and how to wear them appropriately and just the importance of safe sex practices. And that's where a lot of the fundraising was happening was in the bars, fundraising for organizations like Good Samaritan Project. Because the community tended to turn to drag queens to raise money because they're very good at visibly raising money. They're walking around with dollar bills in their hands, right? Yeah. So, so that was, that was one of the places that these, these orgs went to, to, to raise money regularly. And the, and the queens responded, of course, positively and did a lot to, in the early years to fund, to fund these organizations. And where are the lesbians in all this? The lesbians, well, you know, in a city like this, there were enough bars that there were lesbian bars. So on, on, over on Main Street between 50th and 51st, that was one of the primary bars was, it was the cabaret. And then two doors down was Billie Jean's, which was a lesbian bar. I'm sure it was. It, it absolutely was. Hey, I believe you. But they were, they were around. They were also participating in the fundraising. They were, they were helping to take care of folks who were sick, either formally or informally, they were volunteering at the orgs like Good Samaritan Project. So they stepped up. They stepped up and, and did what needed to be done. Yeah. Yeah. And when I have so many questions, I want to ask you. Woman Town is something that a lot of people might not know about. It's very Kansas City specific. Don't tune out, even if you don't care about Kansas City, this is interesting, I promise. Will you talk a little bit about Woman Town? Sure. Woman Town was, was an initiative that started in the very early 1990s to create as they build it an intentional urban women's community, woman with a why. Basically what it was, was an effort to create a safe neighborhood. As they, as, as the founders described it as a place where they fell safe, walking hand in hand down the street. And it was in a neighborhood, if you know Kansas City, from 25th to 31st, Gillum to Troust. And it was a neighborhood at that point that was just on the cusp of decline. And so these two women came in and started buying property and then encouraged other women to come either by property or rent property in the neighborhood. And if they bought property that needed some rehab, the members of Woman Town would collectively work together to, to rehab the property. And along the way, they established opportunities for social engagement. They did trips and they participated in things like marches and pride and all that kind of stuff. And it turned out to be really quite successful and really, really resonates with the women who lived there. Yeah. Yeah. So they, these lesbians were going to like women's fairs and stuff, right? Like women's festivals and fliering and being like moved to Kansas City. We're making. And they were advertising. They were advertising internationally and they got, they got correspondence from all across the world because they, you know, it was, it's an interesting take on promotion of the city. Yeah. Because they're promoting it to a very specific audience. And so in the, in the materials that we have about Woman Town, you see a lot of these letters from, from women all across the country, just inquiring about the scene and, and what it took to, to be here. Yeah. Yeah. But the founders are these two amazing women. They're now down in Georgia. And I guess it was last year, we put up a historic marker commemorating Woman Town because it's a, it's a very interesting and unique take on the whole idea of lesbian separatism, which really gained ground in the years immediately after Stonewall in the early seventies. Yeah. What's interesting to me about it is that the Woman Town was 20 years later and it was in the middle of a city. Cause the post-Domewall efforts were very rural. Get off the grid, get out of the patriarchy. And they were out in the woods, basically remaking their world. Whereas here in, in Kansas City, it was, it was just adapting. And we thought it was important enough to commemorate by installing this historic marker and we wanted to do it while a lot of the women were still around. And so we had a really great event last summer and unveiling and a number of the residents were, were in attendance and it was just a really, it was a really fun blowout. Yeah. Yeah. I can't believe that's already been last year. Yeah. Feels like yesterday. Startups to scale ups online in person and on the go. Shopify is made for entrepreneurs like you. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify.com slash setup. Yeah. But you, y'all were also having, what was it? The, the queer community in Kansas City was thrown like a big picnic in, in the country every year. What was that thing? That was in the seventies. Yeah. So there was a group that was called the 10 400 club. And we don't have a lot of reliable information about it, but from my understanding, the name comes from the address of one of the members, which at that point would have been a hundred and fourth and something. And then the seventies, that was all country because that was, that was south of, of, of the highway. And so it was a, it was a social club and it was a philanthropic club that raised money for different kinds of community, broader community things like twice for tots, that kind of thing. And they would regularly have what they call pasture parties out at a couple of farms of the members. And we have some footage in the collection of a big giant party. Like it looks like about 200 people. And, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a party out in a pasture. And so everybody sitting around their lawn chairs or on their blankets, but they, there's also footage of them doing these really quintessential kind of Midwestern things. There are sack races. There's a big giant egg toss. And then, and then the film cuts to this sort of weird makeshift stage with this lesbian rock band playing. And then it cuts to an even smaller platform where this well known black drag queen performs out there in the middle of, of them in the middle of the farm. It's really, really kind of astounding and it's a really cool. Example of what it was like for Midwestern queers in, and these, these films are from about 1976 in the seventies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we've always been here. Yeah. I think that's the stuff that I love learning about that stuff. Cause it just like growing up in, you know, small town, northern Missouri, I didn't know an openly gay person until I was in my twenties. Right. That I, you know, openly, I didn't know anyone that I, that I proclaimed as gay. I have my suspicions, but they're probably right. Yeah. I, yeah, there's at least one science teacher that I'm like the haircut told a story. You know? Yeah. But yeah, I just think it's, it's feels so good to me to hear about how long we've been here and, and to think about the fact that for so long, I think a lot of rural queer people experience this feeling of like, I am, I don't belong here. This place is not for me. Right. And then to get evidence that it's like, well, that's just not true. Right. That's just not true. Because the thing about coming, about growing up and coming of age in the Midwest is that you're really tied to the landscape. I mean, that's one of the reasons we like living in the Midwest is, is because of the ties that we have here and that aren't necessarily queer ties, but there is that tension between that and the fact that there are many, many people who don't want you here. Well, there are many, many people who don't want you anywhere. So, so that's just going somewhere else is going to make that any different or go away. And it is nice to have the validation that we've always been around and always been in these spaces. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I don't want to get, yeah, that's why I've, I, I've, home is so important to me because I don't want to give it to the people who want us to leave. Right. I don't want to give it to the, I don't want to, I don't want to seed that to them. The homophobes and racists and misogynists don't get to have them at West. Right. To me, I'm like, we can't leave and abandon and just all of us go away because they don't, they don't get to own Missouri. I'm also from here. Right. And the kids, the queer kids who are coming of age now need to see queer people in Missouri, in Kansas, and know that they are here. And then it's okay to be queer and be here. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'm backtracking a little bit. You're, you're here in the mid eighties. And when do you meet your husband? We met in December of 1988 at a bar. Which bar? Cabaret, of course. Cabaret, of course. The lesbian bar. No, that was Billie Jean's. Oh, sorry. Oh, I get you were telling me in reference to, got you, got you, got you. Right. Yes. I thought they were both lesbian bars, but no. No, no, Cabaret was a men's bar. Um, so you guys met at the bar in 1988. Yes. And just come on, give me the good stuff. How did that, what happened? So he was there with his partner at the time. Boo. And a friend of theirs. And I had had enough libations that I had, I hated going to bars because I just stood there by myself and so I'd get drunk enough to then just go dance by myself. Um, and so I was dancing by myself and, and their friend sort of approached me on the dance floor and gestured if he could dance and I said, sure. Uh, so we ended up connecting. And then his name was Craig. The four of us, uh, started running around together as, as two couples as friends. And then my husband Christopher and I, after about a year of that, realized. Separately that, um, we were not with people we should be with. And so drama, it was drama. It was total drama. And they, they exited the picture and Christopher and I connected just sort of kind of begrudgingly on the rebound. And we're like, okay, let's just see what this is going to be like. And then 34 years later, here we are. That's so sweet. I love that. So how long were you guys friends before you, the breakups happened in you officially? Uh, about two years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was two years of drama. I was going to say, I'm like, that's excruciating. Yeah. It was a lot because each of the partners had their own issues, um, mostly from their families actually know that I think about it. Um, cause his partner was a Syrian who had lots of challenges and my partner had, had lots of challenges from his family. So yeah. Yeah. And then you guys linked up and it's been 34 years. Yeah. That's crazy. Does that feel crazy to you? Yeah. It does feel crazy. Um, you know, and it's just like any relationship you, you, it's work and you work through stuff and then you reach a point where, as we say, it's, it's, it's too much work to train a new one. So. Oh, he just ride with it. What's your favorite thing about him? Hmm. He's so smart and he makes me laugh. Yeah. Yeah. He is so smart. He is really, really smart. It's crazy. Yeah. I mean, you are too. It makes sense. But when I met him, I was like, this guy's brilliant. Yeah, he really is. Yeah. Yeah. What is, is there another quality? Smart and makes you laugh are two great ones. Is there a quality that, cause you know, you guys, how old are you in 1988? 27? In 89. Yeah. I'm 27. Yeah. So you're young. You've got options. You're in Kansas City. It's a, there's a few gay bars, things are going on. There's gay guys here. Right. You could have also moved somewhere else and been single if you wanted to. Right. Is there a quality about Christopher that made you think, this is what I should be doing. This is the person I should be with. Not immediately. Yeah. You learn that, you kind of learn that as you go along in the early years. Um, cause he's an artist. He's a visual artist. And I had always had a thing about our boys. Yeah. And I really liked that idea of being with an artist and helping to support an artist and the work that they do. And cause the kids I ran around with in college were all artists and I am not, I'm not, I'm not, and I just admire it. And you, you, I think you realize as time goes on, it's like, oh, okay. So this, this is, this is where it can work and this is where it fits. And this is why we should continue. And, and we, we both came from similar backgrounds, which I think helped. We both came from small towns. He and Oklahoma and me in Southwest Missouri. Cause I grew up in a smaller town, uh, South of Springfield. And, um, just that shorthand of that experience of that life experience also contributed to our understanding of each other and why we do things the way we do. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's beautiful. I love that. And he's also a very good artist. Yeah. By the way, yeah, I can see why I can see what you were picking up on. Yeah. I see it all. Yeah. See what both of you were picking up on. You emailed me a picture recently of, uh, you from back in the day and I said, I know that's right. I said, I said, damn right, Christopher, come on. Cause she told me that you got hired at some restaurant job cause the owner wanted to Oh yeah. He wanted to do my pants. Yeah. That's the only reason he hired me. I had no experience whatsoever. And he hired me as a cook. Yeah. I know that's right. He said, you'll figure the stove out. Get in here. I don't know to turn it off. Yeah. Well, God, I left my stove on all night last night. I don't even know if we've said that on here yet. I didn't, I didn't even use it. I just bumped into it and turned the gas on and then woke up this morning. I was like, my house smells funny. We'll see what happens. I don't know. I'm having a good time. I hope I live longer, but if the stove takes me, well, yeah, stay away from the stove then. Okay. What else do I want to ask you? Well, God, there's so many things. You, uh, work with college students a lot as a teacher, professor. What, what is going on with the AI shit? What are we, what are we thinking about this? I'm scared. I, I honestly don't know. Okay. Um, because in our little niche, uh, because we're dealing with old books and we're dealing with archival materials, um, we're pretty removed from the AI and it's, it's not going to take over our work. So none of us are worried about it. And then in terms of the classroom, I'm a very casual and laid back teacher. You're a cool professor. Yeah. And I, because I'm an adjunct and I get paid no money. Yeah. And so I'm not going to be as intense as like a full time teaching faculty member. And so I give them very simple assignments. All they have to do is two film reviews. And the semester, especially I could tell, I could tell that they either copied and pasted it or they had some computer. Some of them had some computer spit it out for them. Yeah. You know, as I tell them the first, the first class we have, I'm not there to grade their writing skills or to meet this, the student learning outcomes or any of that crap. I'm there as their Gelder to share these stories with them. And if they choose to go down a path that isn't as challenging as it could be for them, that's their choice. They get less out of the class. But I'm not going to track it down because one semester I did call a girl out on her plagiarism and it ended up being a crap time, more work for me as the instructor. And it's like, I don't have time for that. So, so I just got shift the burden of responsibility back to them. And, you know, it's, it's, however much they want to get out of the class, they'll put into it. Yeah. Yeah. It makes me sad, though, for a million reasons. I mean, the AI stuff, I'm at my fucking wit's end already with it. I'm so mad about it. I, we just got another offer yesterday. I didn't even tell you guys this. We just got another offer yesterday to do a huge ad campaign for an AI. Really? Oh, they're offering their, well, they're consent manufacturing right now. Right. That's what I want a lot of people platforms to understand is they are, they're in the process right now of manufacturing consent for this technology. And when they come and offer people with, you know, cool platforms or audiences or whatever, whatever that means, and they offer you an outsized amount of money, which they are all of them. They offer you hundreds of thousands of dollars to do an ad deal for them. They are doing that because they need your help to manufacture consent for this. Right. So that when they use this to take everybody's jobs, when they use this to destroy, it's already ruining our brains. We've already, we already have the shit just got here and we already have research about what it's doing to the human brain. It's making us, it's going to make us dumber. It's going to steal jobs from people that we already don't have to give away. Right. And I just feel insane about it, but I, it makes me even more sad in a class like queer history, which is presumably a lot of queer kids, right? That I'm like, why take it? Why take it if you don't want to, this is important stuff. And this is actually like the, the privilege and the benefit and the joy of being a student is that there's this time in your life where you get to dedicate many hours a day to just thinking, right? That will never happen for you again. Right. That's so exciting. Right. And I know that I totally, I totally slacked off in parts of undergrad and there are totally things that I didn't, you know, care for. I didn't appreciate the way that I should have. Right. That's just part of being 20. But there's something more happening now, I think. And maybe that's just because I'm 30 and maybe I'm just becoming one of those guys who's like, it's different. But I, I do think there's a difference between phoning in a 12 page essay, but still writing it yourself and just completely turning it over to a computer. Yeah. I do feel that there's a difference in that. Yeah. And, you know, if I had my druthers, I wouldn't even sign them the, the two film reviews and there are only three pages, three to five pages. That's like, come on, guys. This is, and I tell them what to do. Yeah. But, but I have to just to, just to meet the, the needs of, of the, of the school. And yeah, to your point about it being the only time in your life where you are going to be able to do this, where you and a group of other people are going to read the same thing at the same time and then come together and learn more about it. Take advantage of that and dive in and be a student. The whole, the whole point of being a student is that you don't know. You're not, I don't expect you to know this. That's why you're taking a class like this or any class and it's okay to not know. That's why you're here and then spend the time learning it and then you walk away knowing it. Yeah. Yeah. What would you, what would you tell, what do you wish that younger queer people knew? Like, what do you wish that younger queer people knew or understood that you think they might not? I wish that they knew more about their history and quite honestly, I wish the community as a whole had better infrastructures for making intergenerational connections, which we don't. We're really, really bad about that. And we just, we just didn't know what to do. We just didn't know what to do. We just didn't know what to do. We're really, really bad about that. And we just, we just don't have the, any systems for connecting older queers with younger ones to help them along and to guide them and help them through, you know, most, most cultures have rituals around specific ages or rituals around specific points in life. And we don't have that. And I'm trying to figure out a way as, again, a Gelder to, to put that into place where, where we can. I'm actually meeting with a group next month that deals with queer seniors. Because I did a series of talks in May at the Artists Coalition, Ken City Arts Coalition. And the audience was really diverse in terms of age from senior seniors to very, very young people. And in our conversations over the course of the series, the young people were really, really interested in how can we replicate this kind of makeup of an audience for our own organizations. And so we were all kind of brainstorming ways to do that. And, and I think there's just like, there's a hunger for the history. I think there's a hunger for making those connections. Why I think one of the big barriers is, is the technology divide. Because just as you said, you're on this thing all the time. You're on immersed in digital all the time. And many people my age and older are not. And so, so there's, there's a real true disconnect there. And it's just kind of figuring out ways to overcome that. I think people are starving for community in general. Right now, in connection in general. But I do think I can't speak for older queer folks. But I know that younger queer folks would be excited at the prospect of having an intergenerational queer friendship. I make a lot of new friends and you're one of my favorite people I've met in years. We have such great conversations. I just love hanging out with you. You have probably the best advice on boys. I feel so bad for you. Every time we get together, I've got a new boy problem for you to solve. That's all right. Take advantage. Yeah, I'm like, it's, yeah, I just think it's beautiful to have those kind of friendships. And I think, yeah, I'm, I'm also interested in figuring out how we can do that. Um, and I also want to like, you've taught me so much about like queer people in Kansas City even that did so much for our community and like made Kansas City a viable place for an openly gay person to live, period, that are now struggling or now have this or that. And I'm like, I want to help. I'll do anything, you know, that you were helping that person, that older lesbian move out of her house. And she was such a, you know, there's just things like that where I'm like, I would show up in move boxes for a day or whatever, you know. Yeah, I think that's, I think knowing our history is really important. And I would like to help make more intergenerational connections. There's just a lot of hope in that also. Yeah. I think it's a real source of hope. On both sides, yeah, quite honestly, because, uh, for the older generation, it, you know, Grindr is a mystery and... Grindr is a mystery. Back in the day, Grindr is a mystery, by the way. And so I just think it, it, it, it helps us to understand what you all are having to contend with, that we never would have, that we never did. Yeah. And what we don't have to contend with because you did. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's a good point. That was a good point. Good job, Caleb. Okay. Question for you. And I, you know, this might be annoying and you don't have to answer it, because I know sometimes, I, wait a minute. You're in a beautiful long marriage. We talked about Christopher, who we love. Shout out Christopher in his garden that he's obsessed with. What do you, what do you think is the secret? What is the secret to a good, long, maybe not even secret. What is your advice for a good, long, healthy relationship? We have always said that we were lucky in that, we each married someone who likes to be by themselves. And I think just making room for the other person in those kinds of ways, whatever it is, whether it's an outgoing personality, then you just make room for that. Or whether it's a little more sedate and introspective kind of personality. And just again, in the early, in the early phases, just kind of figuring out what you're dealing with and what's in front of you. And if you want to make it work, then you, then you try to find ways to, to accommodate that and make room for that. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense to me. Yeah. What's so true to you, Stuart? What's so true to me is that, I don't know, to be honest, your phones are crack. And crack is whack. Yeah. Okay, say more. What do you think? It's, it's bad for us, the phones? But fun, you have to admit. I presume they're fun. There's got to be some draw. No, they're horrible. I hate them. Yeah. I mean, because Christopher has one and I, people are on them all the time. And when they're forced to be off of them, like in a classroom, you can see them getting itchy. Yeah. It's, it's just like my opium, I need my crack. And it's astounding to me. It's astounding to me. Just how much people give over to their devices, especially in terms of time. Yeah. Yeah. The crazy thing is, everyone knows it. That's the thing is, it's not hidden. Everyone that you would, my friends who spend the most time on their phone, and I am not innocent of this, I spend a lot of time on the phone. I think I have a pretty balanced relationship with it, all things considered. But even still, it's bad and I am bad at it. But everyone, my friends who are on the phone the most will go like, oh, I know I'm wasting so much of my life on this thing. And we can't, we can't stop. It's nuts. Yeah. It's really nuts. Yeah. Doom scrolling, put it, shut up, put it down. Yeah. I've had it with this. My friends be like, oh, I was up till 4 a.m. Doom scrolling, shut it off. Are you 12? Right. Stop it. That, that I can't understand. I'm like, when, when I start to feel bad, I do at least put it down. No T, no shade. But it just, it's, it is insane to me that we all know how bad it is, and we're all still doing it all the time. Right. I am with you on that. Because you can just put it away. You should really only be on your phone for like an hour and a half a week. And it's Thursdays when my show comes out. Other than that, I think read a book, get out there. Go for a walk. Go for a walk. Maybe listen to So True. And then I think as long as you listen to all my ads and don't click through them, and maybe use the discount code, then you should log off a little bit. Right. Yeah. Right. That'd be good for the culture. Priorities. It is, I've talked about this a lot, but it is funny. I do think we should all get off the phones. I'm actively trying to. I hate the internet. I don't like it. I don't put God Bless Virginia. She does all my posting. It is not me that you're interacting with on there. I've been very open about that. And yet it is my job. And so I'm like, don't, don't shut it off entirely. Oh no. It's a weird conundrum because that's how you, that's how you do promotion. That's how you have to do promotion now. Yeah. And that's something that we have faced with the archive because I'm not on anything. So as a result, it's really hard to promote stuff because the primary tools I don't use. We don't use. You're not at. Yeah. So. What do you need in your work? What do you, do you need donations to the archive? Do you, what do you need most? You've got a captive audience here. We have launched a campaign to endow a position that is dedicated to Glamma. Because our thinking, because I've got about four years left before I retire. And the thinking being that if we have a position that is funded with money that doesn't come from the state that gives that removes the threat of the state getting involved with what it is we're trying to do that gives the, that gives a buffer to the, to the collection. AKA if they were funding it, they could just cut it all together and the way things are going, they likely would. It, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's, it's not out of the realm of possibility. And so that's, that's, that's our focus right now. My Dean's focus and by extension, my focus is to sort of generate awareness about that, about that campaign and try and raise that money. Yeah. She wants to, she wants to try to do it before I retire. I'm not sure that will happen. Because it would be helpful for a new person to overlap and this job is all about relationships and it will, it would benefit them to take advantage of me being still around so I can introduce them to people, to donors and other people just to help them get their footing. Yeah. But we'll see. We'll see. Yeah. Well, we'll put the link for the donation you'll have to send it to us and I will. I'll make a donation for sure. And well, anybody else who wants to make a donation can, can do that. But guess what? I have one more segment for you. Uh-oh. This is a game. Okay. Speaking of donations, I'm going to read you 15 statements. Okay. Okay. You're going to tell me as quickly as you can after each one if you think what I just said is true or false. Okay. If you get 10 or more correct, Stuart, I'm going to give you 50 US dollars. It's a game show. You ready? I want Canadian dollars. No. I'm an American, god damn it. Actually, let me check the conversion rate on that. You might be able to get your way. Okay. You ready? Mm-hmm. Okay. Keanu Reeves has a twin brother. False. That is false. But oh, you were quick too. Penis Owen is an anti-histamine. False. False. It's an antibiotic. Burger King was originally called Insta Burger King. True. That is true. The band Kiss had four original members. False. It's true. Chase Banks headquarters is in Atlanta. False. False. New York City. Miller Light came out in 1973. True. That is true. Pistol dueling used to be an Olympic sport. True. That is true. Abdominal pain is the number one thing people visit the ER for. True. True. Andy Reed, head coach of the Kansas City Chiefs, was born and raised in Madison, Wisconsin. False. False. Do you know what it was? No. Los Angeles. The largest indoor theme park in Europe is in Moscow. True. True. Penguin Bay is the capital of Antarctica. True. False. It has no capital. Julia Roberts has been nominated for 10 Golden Globes. True. True. Game of Thrones ran for eight seasons. True. True. Blue Whales made for life. True. False. The Kansas City women's soccer team is called the Fountain Years. False. False. It's the current. How do you do? Eleven. Eleven. Oh, twelve. Yeah. Oh, nice. Twelve is really good. Wow. Twelve is really good. You'd be shocked. A lot of our guests are not very smart. Stuart, it was a pleasure to have you. Is there anything you want to tell the people before you go? Anything you feel we left out? No, I think we covered a lot. I could have done more. I could have done two or three hours more. And it was a pleasure. We'll have to all be back. It was a pleasure. I just love you. Thank you for doing it. Same here. Thanks for being here. You're welcome. Thank you. Anytime.