Ghost World w. Lucé Tomlin-Brenner and Carolyn Kendrick

Hello, you. Welcome to You Are Good at Feelings podcast about movies. Today we're talking about Ghost World. We're talking about it with Lou Say, Tomlin Brenner. I am one of your hosts, Alex Steed. Today, special guest host Carolyn Kendrick will be here momentarily. You Are Good at Feelings podcast about movies is exactly what it sounds like. This is a show where we talk about how movies make us feel, what they make us think about, how they make us consider who and how we are in the world. We are not film critics. Sorry to people who want us to be more critical, although we do talk critically about this movie in particular. And that's kind of why I love this specific conversation. We do address it a bit critically. But no, the point is to talk with folks about their favorite movies and to go, how did this influence you? What does it mean? What does it mean to be a person? And that was a good jumping off point to consider exactly that. Ghost World is a 2001 black comedy film written and directed by Terry Zwigoff. It's based on the 1990s comic book Ghost World by Daniel Close, who also co-wrote this screenplay. The story focuses on the lives of teenage outsiders Enid and Rebecca who face a rift in their friendship as they both start going in separate directions after high school. It also stars Steve Buscemi as Seymour. Lusé Tomlin Brenner is a comedian and filmmaker who's from Ohio originally and lives in Los Angeles. She's an improviser with the U.S. Brigade and does all sorts of things, really just a fabulous person. And every time I see Lusé at a party, which is, you know, moderately often, I'm always like, yes, we get to talk about our hyper fixations, which we share many. Caroline Kendrick, of course, is a musician, one of the founding producers of You Are Good, if you only spoke house about movies. You've heard her here before, no doubt, unless this is your first time listening to the show. She has a new project coming out with our friend Tristan Scroggins, a new podcast mini series called Don't Call Me, Darling, which is about genre and feminism and essentially like a zine and like indie media within the bluegrass community. It's a fascinating one. It's kind of a monumental undertaking. They've traveled all over the country in order to make it. And that's coming out soon. So you can hear the trailer that's linked in the show notes and you can find a link to contribute to that production, if that is something that compels you. So be sure to check all that out. We ran the trailer in last week's episode so you can also hear it there. I really like this conversation because again, at the beginning, I say that we don't speak critically, but we do have different perspectives on this movie and this conversation. And I really enjoy that we get to do that. You know, like the whole point of the show ultimately is to say what media shaped you and how did it shape you and what did it make you think about? And, you know, this is a conversation where we really drill down into that. I really have a good time here. And it was interesting covering this with someone who loves the movie as much as I do. And like this movie is a snapshot of a very specific time for a very specific kind of person. And, you know, the characters as I am are the eldest in the millennial classification, you know, maybe technically in the blurry ex-convial era. And so, you know, to have this conversation with Luce, who sort of identifies around there and then to talk about the movie with someone like Carolyn who did not come up on the movie and who came a bit after that time in, let's say, pop culture or identity history was fascinating. And we go all sorts of places in this conversation. How are you doing? What's going on in your world? How are you feeling? You know, I've said it before. I'll say it again. It's a scary time, but I am heartened to see how everybody's showing up. It's a very cool thing. It's a very beautiful thing. People are showing up. And all that is important to me is that like, if you were going to show up X amount, show up X amount plus one. If you're going to show up zero amount, show up zero amount plus one. We're going to increase our showing up muscles. And I think that that's a beautiful, beautiful thing. I am heartened when I see that. And again, that sort of thing is what stays off the dread and gives us and makes possible hope. Very cool stuff. However, you end up contributing whatever you end up doing. However, you end up staving off that dread. Don't forget that you, my friend, are good. We appreciate you. You are good at feelings podcast about movies as made possible with and by your support. Thanks to everyone who supports us on Patreon and Apple podcast subscriptions. We appreciate you. You get bonus episodes. You get extended cuts. I also said this before, and this is going to happen very soon. I just need to carve out a little time. I'm going to start posting full episodes on Patreon so that if you don't want to support a streaming service totally understood, we're going to post episodes on Patreon full once it's going to be a couple of weeks. I just need to get my shit together. But I am going to start doing that. And I know that it's important to some of y'all to a lot of y'all to be able to listen without supporting some of these services. I get that we're going to make that possible. If you are free on February 4th and you live in Los Angeles, come see Eve Lindley and I do our movie Trivia Night at Kibbutz Room at 8pm to 10pm. We have a really good time. We have fun. You can win prizes. It's a grand time. We'd love to see you there. So that's tonight if you're listening when this episode first drops. And just keep an eye on my social media for when we do it the next time. We do it monthly. There's Trivia monthly when Eve is available. She joins and it's a lot of fun. Oh, speaking of Eve Lindley, we're going to have Eve on soon to talk about the Wizard of Oz. So buckle up. That's going to be a fun one. Please join me in supporting our friends in Gaza and in Palestine more broadly. Palestine Children is a really fun, it's a great place to start, though there are many campaigns and many opportunities for giving material if you're able to do so. But there's a link to that in the show notes. I think that's it for this week's intro of You Are Good at Feelings podcast about movies. All right, let's get into it, shall we? Hello, Carolyn Kendrick. Hello, Alex Steed. How are you doing on this crispy Los Angeles January afternoon? You know, winter hardly know her. It's a breezy 80 degrees here right now or something like that. And I'm really honest to God, truly enjoying it. This is exactly the kind of weather that I was built for. Anything colder than this is just simply not in my constitution. I need to incubate in order to have ideas. So I'm happy for it. It's so funny that that's the case because I think we're talking about a movie about two cold weather gals. So I'm really excited to talk about the psychological and sociological differences there. And then like indoor kids, generally, we're talking about a movie about indoor kids. Yes. Do you have Carolyn before we dive in any exposure prior to yesterday to the movie or the comic ghost world? You know what's so funny is that you brought up this movie a couple of weeks ago when you mentioned that you were going to be covering it on the show. And I was like, I've never heard of that movie before in my life. And you were describing it. And I was like, this sounds like a 30 rock movie. Like just only because it's like super famous people, but early on in their career. And then also because the plot is a little bit meandering. It's like, they do what? And they go where? And Steve Buscemi's there in the same room as Thora Birch? What? Like? Yeah, I'm really, I was excited to bring you in in particular. At least they were going to do this episode last week. And then I, everything did not work on my end. So I'm glad we got to push it up a week. Because specifically, I was interested in bringing you into this conversation because I feel like this movie was constructed for very specific people in a very specific time. And I am really interested to hear what you will have to say in response to what both Lu say and I have to say about this. And I was really interested about that. I was interested in that generally, but then I just listened to an old Becdel cast episode about this movie where it's on one end, it's the Jamie Loftus of it all, who I think you and Jamie are the same age. And on the other is Julie Klausner. And I'm much closer to Julie's age. And there was for sure a generational divide about this. Yeah. And it like, it has so many iconic people. And I just like every single second of this movie, I really, really, truly enjoyed it. But I did feel like there was like a generational gap in like me connecting with some of the sentiments of it. So anyways, I really enjoyed it. And I'm really excited to talk about it. Well, we are talking about this movie specifically, because our great friend, Lu say is here. Lu say, could you say hello and introduce yourself? Hi, everybody excited to be here talking about my all time favorite movie. And I am a cinephile. I'm a professional video store manager. I've been working at video stores since I was in high school when this movie came out. And it's a good video store culture movie as well has a great scene in it. Did you rent a lot of nine and a half weeks? Yes. You know, I have yet to work at a shop that has an erotic drama section. And finally, I made my dream come true recently. And we do have an erotic thriller section at my store video tech now finally, we like put that into motion over the last year. So a lifelong dream of having a specific erotic section has finally taken place. Thank God. Wow, so cool. Yeah, it took me like over 20 years to get that going somewhere. But as I was saying, I'm a comedian and I'm host a show at my video store called Video Visions once a month. And then I also hosted the same show at the Lyric Theater. Once in a while, we do one off special shows there. But we show surprise clips of movies to our comedians. They don't know what they're going to be. And then they have to improvise a stand upset off of that. So yeah, totally original comedy inspired by cinema. So a lot of my life, I'm just trying to like blend my lifelong obsession with film with comedy. That's so great. I love that. Thanks. It's fun. Yeah. I don't know when this will air, but we're always the last Thursday of every month. Nice. Hell yeah. And Lucy, what is your relationship with Ghostworld? Why is this a movie that you feel strongly about? This came out when I was in high school. I'm basically the same age as the characters. They're older than me, but very much like we would have been in high school at the same time. And so and these were me and my friends, like just for funsies, I decided to wear one of my high school thrifted t shirts. So this is like from this exact time period. This is a necklace I thrifted that's like porcelain and like very like Floridian like grandmother jewelry. And then this nice knitted grandmother sweater too. I was like, I got to put together my high school loose. Look, yeah, this is from your old lady phase to quote the movie. Yes, which is so funny because that was exactly like I have so many polyester dresses just like that because especially the 2000s, it's really interesting to see what the popular style of the 2000s is coming back and all this talk about like this is what the new millennium looked like. And that's what it looked like for the most popular kids. Like there's what sorority girls dressed like and cheerleaders dressed like. But the millennium for me looked exactly like this movie. Like this is when you know, thrifted t shirts and old lady outfits like for all the girls who were punk and feminist and like interested in like, I don't know, alt stuff, indie rock. Like we weren't dressing in low rise pants because we thought that it was like objectifying, you know, and like now it's fun to like kind of reclaim that a little bit. But like I loved dressing in like old lady stuff because I was against the like girls gone wildification of young women and I didn't want my body to be sexualized at that time. I didn't want men to look at me like that. And I was very much like an enid like sarcastic and mean and wanting to be off putting and like weaponizing like feminine sort of like looks in like a punk way. So I was so excited when this movie came out. I mean, you know, it's based on the comic by Daniel Close, who I discovered through this movie and then got really into his work. So I liked his work my whole life. This is how I became familiar with the filmmaker, Terry's Wagon, who then did bad Santa, but he did really amazing art, crumb documentary and the movie. What is it? The other one, Daniel Close. Art school confidential. Yeah. This is my favorite of his, but I really love his style a lot. And despite this being like helmed by two men, there really weren't a lot of movies about young women, like there was now and then, you know, but that was middle school girls and like high school girls of the like Y2K times, like there was nothing. And this was like, not only was this not about like, I don't know, the more girls gone wild popular shaburi girl stuff, like there were a lot of teen movies, but like there wasn't anything about like punk outcasts who like hated everybody in their class. And this was like me and my best friends in the theater program. Like this was and it was so thrilling to like watch a movie that was like, wait, this is actually what girls are like, like we're not all like this one. Like she's all that kind of subset. So I fell in love with it instantly and probably watched it every week of my life since then. Oh, that's so great. A very deep relationship with it. I had my original VHS copy that I bought when it came out still. So I have every format. I have VHS DVD and then I have my like criterion edition when that came out a couple years ago on Blu-ray. Big physical media handled. Yeah, you're prepared for any format. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've always I've been saying like you start off as E-Mid Enid and then you live long enough to see yourself become Seymour. So yeah. Fascinating watching this movie close to Seymour's age after this movie came out when I was the year I graduated. So I saw this movie in the theater. Oh, so you're exactly their age. Yeah. And it was like the first I think similarly, you know, like clerks was huge for me because it was about like a specific sort of disaffection. And I was I started working job jobs when I was 12. So like the idea of interfacing with people in that way and finding like just like these pieces of the general like apathy and loathing that came from doing that and from being sort of in a retail setting and being of a particular mindset was really resonant in a big way. And then like seeing and that movie like those characters are 22. And when that when that came out, I saw it when it was like 12 or 13. And so they were like men, you know, like those guys, like those guys were old. Yeah. So to then come to these girls who are exactly on screen at least my age and felt the same way that I did and struggled with the same tension I would end up struggling with, which is like, you know, you are critical of and maybe even loathe everything as sort of as it's presented in sort of like that this is like a status quo. But how do you live in it? Like you eventually have to figure out like how to live in it. And we see the tension between the two characters ultimately with one person who finds a lot more ease in trying to figure out how to live in the world and another person who is like through Enid who is very stunted in the face of it and finds, you know, a kindred spirit in this, you know, 40 something man who also has no idea still how to live in it. Yeah, I mean, he's sort of like the blend of Enid and Rebecca, like he takes the corporate job that he was skeptical of as a young person. But he's still like very much has all of these interests and he he's doing it, but he's still not fitting in with anybody. And I completely agree with you. I had the same experience. Clerks was like one of my favorite movies, like my friends and I loved Kevin Smith, we loved Clerks and Mauraatz. But like that was the thing we had to watch like a lot of guy movies. We saw ourselves in young men movies about slackers. Yeah, you know, SLC punk was like another movie that meant a lot to us. Trainspotting, you know, all of that. Yeah, but I mean, again, you don't really see women are always the like accessories, especially like the sexual accessories in those movies. And so it's not that we didn't question that, but we were just like, well, we're not those women were these guys. And I mean, that's a lot of film, right? Is like the expectation that any person watching can see themselves in the male characters, which you had to, and to get to finally have like these avatars that like, oh, wow, like their makeup and hair and dresses, like it's we don't just have to pretend for these people, like we actually are these people. But yeah, Clerks is getting another classic video store movie very influential on me. Yeah, yeah, the huge piece that this movie reminded me of that I had, I don't think about overtly, but just because it was like a part of my life. But I think when I say it's it's going to be obvious. It's like, I just didn't hang out with boys for them like in school, like I primarily hung out with girls, though they were more in the like, you know, 17 magazine camp of girls. And so like, we would kind of like hang and do that. And then there were like a couple of girls who were a couple years older than me at my school, who when I was younger took me under their wing. And they were like very like, you know, as we can sort of look back and categorize everyone in as like, they like alternate team model, like they they read, you know, like comics by Ivan Brunetti. And they read like, they were the ones who introduced me to like twin peaks on laser discs, like they were like very specific types. And to see it was shocking. And you know, Julie said this on the Bechtelkast episode, like it was shocking to see somebody like you or somebody who you admired or somebody who was in your sphere in a movie. Because again, like you often had to project yourself onto somebody else's avatar and not see yourself represented. And now Carolyn, I do want to ask you because I think that this like this is the reason why this stands out in a big way to like people of a particular age, because there wasn't anybody prior on film. I'm curious about like what your take was, because I think I think you were like often stressed out about the like general meanness of these characters. Yes, I was. I think that yeah, I was both constantly laughing through this movie because the tonal setups and deliveries were so good and so subtle and like the writing is just great and the character work is great and everybody's delivery is just hilarious and also quite poignant and meaningful. And my general feeling and perhaps this is because like I do possess some of some of this myself was I was just constantly like like having a full body stress reaction to feeling how mean they were to everybody. And I think that I also in high school possessed this like disaffection with the world and especially like, you know, the moments where Enid is like rolling her eyes in art class, like I certainly, certainly associated with that. And I could really like I can't even tell you how many times I've been in, you know, whatever orchestra and some teacher has said something and I've been like a brother, you know, but overall, it really stressed me out seeing how mean they were to everybody. And they're just like walking defense mechanisms. But all those people deserve it. I mean, they don't know they really don't they absolutely don't I completely disagree with you on that. Like I really don't think that do you think that Seymour deserved that being set up like that? I don't think Seymour was being bullied. Like he didn't exist to them. He that's the interesting thing about Seymour, right? He kind of acts as this like it's this pivotal moment in the movie. And it's sort of like where things start to change between Enid and Rebecca, because they go in they they're having their fun time looking through the personal ads, right? And they're doing their thing. You know, they have done this a thousand times. This is them being kids. This is something that kids do, right? Prank calling, harassing people, giving people a hard time. And so they see this guy, they think he's pathetic. And in this moment, this is when Enid starts to like have a little bit of a conscience that she's not used to, which is throwing her off. And she's like getting more and more curious about him. And Rebecca is also not really digging this. And she's getting less and less interested. So it's like both of them have realized that like this is not their thing anymore, but it was their thing. And it like means so much to hold on to that. So they're both trying. But neither of them want to do it anymore. Rebecca's bored by it. Enid's like growing in her maturity. So like, yeah, yeah, I mean, literally, he doesn't deserve it. But for the story, we need this to happen. I also think that like prank calling and like pranking people like that is just like avoiding normal kid thing to do. But Seymour is like, you know, a character that gets development. He's like I said, a blend of both of them. But I'm talking about like all of their stupid high school friends, like all the like lame guys that they interact with, like Enid knows that these people are full of shit. And that's kind of like her obsession with that and her ability to like see through people is what's going to keep her from being able to kind of blend in. Rebecca knows people are full of shit also, but she wants to blend in. So she's going to sort of like let it go. Yeah, it's so interesting. I meet you both exactly in the middle because like I don't think their actions are, I mean, I agree. I mean, what you said, Caroline, you said that their walking defense mechanisms is like that is what resonated with me as a person who saw myself in these people is that like the thing that I was responding to was an overall system, but like did not know that I was responding to an overall system. I was like, all of these people know that they're complicit and they don't. They're all stupid. Everyone in high school, stupid. Like everyone in high school has no frame of reference for like what's happening. Sometimes you have like a little bit more of a frame of reference than everybody else. And you think that it means you're a genius and it just means that you have more of a frame of reference and you're irritated to everybody and have no skill set yet or like awareness about how to deal with this stuff, especially like I was saying, we were talking about this earlier, like especially with, I think the internet has made everything like more nuanced and more blunt in some ways. And like we had no collective language in 2001 for like what people were experiencing when they were experiencing disaffection, like kind of in the way that we do now because they're like, you know, influencers who like mastered that territory or whatever. But I do see like, I do see them as mean. I was mean, like I was mean in response to a mean system. But they're low status. So like they might be being mean, but they don't really have any power. Yeah. But it doesn't stop it from being mean. But what does low status mean in this case? I don't know. They don't have any power. Like in the social structure of high school, they don't have any power. And in the social structure of the world, they're teen girls, you know, their group, they only really have Josh, who they get to bully a little bit because there's romantic tension and between the three of them. But the other guys that they kind of interact with at the incredibly named xenophobia, the scene comic book store, which is such a great roast from like Terry and Danny on like the kinds of guys who are like obsessed with comics at that time period, especially those guys, like they are, you know, anti-Semitic, racist, sexist. And like those are the only other people that they have things in common with. And like she sort of has a similar status to Seymour, right? Because of his he's low status socially as well. So like they just don't, they don't have any power. They're on the lowest totem pole in high school and in society as 18 year old girls, they don't have any power. They're just entering the workforce. They're not in college. There's absolutely nowhere. They're truly at the bottom everywhere. So like being mean to people who are higher social status or higher status in society, it just doesn't mean the same. Like they don't have the power over anyone's lives. Yeah, it's not, I mean, it's not to say that it's nefarious, but I think it is possible to identify the behavior as like, if you're still acting like that at 35, like you need help, you know what I mean? Like if you're still like, fuck everybody, but it's like, yeah, I know, we know, we know, but it's worth checking in on. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think you're totally right, especially about the, you know, like the anti-Semitic guy that was, I was like wondering where that was going to go or if that was eventually going to have like a callback or if he was going to have a come up. I have terrible news for you is there was one or two of those guys in like every group of weirdo people. Yeah, it's like this interesting thing that like when you're in the subculture, you sort of think everybody's thinking the same. And then you're like, oh, wow, you're like in the subculture because you can't be anywhere else in society because you're actually like abusive to people, not just like being kind of a young jerk. You're like, Pat Healy's character, you know, seems like mid early 20s, he should be out of that, you know, by now. But like, but what's interesting is that like, now we see those types of people everywhere around us, right? Like being anti-Semitic at a certain time was more underground. And now, because of the internet, these people have connected to each other and they're thriving. So I think there's something interesting in that as well, just culturally to examine. Well, yeah. And within subcultures, there were just like walking edgelords too, like who did not have who would eventually like find a home on the internet and then find communities. But like, yeah, at least to your point, like the subcultures were so broad, like things weren't atomized yet. And so you would like find yourself with someone who was like overtly genderqueer and like someone who was like the Pat Healy edgelord edgelord character. And then again, like a 45 year old farting man, like the Seymour roommate or neighbor guy, like you would have like, that is like who the crew would be. Yeah, no, that's such a great point, Alex. I like look back at photographs from like high school or college and I'm like, God, what a motley crew of people. Like it was just like this, because we know now we all live here, we can tell that it's filmed in LA, but it's supposed to be anywhere USA, right? So it's like, yeah, that I think that was the other thing where I was like, wow, I can really see myself in these like working class people. Because that was like another thing, right? It's like, you don't see a lot of like truly working class or truly middle class people, not middle class by means of like what TV writers are doing, modern family think middle class looks not LA middle class, like actual like people making $50,000 or under a year, you know. And so it was that was really interesting to me because I was like, Oh, this is like what it looks like in my part of Ohio. And like, yeah, you know, two other people that like the music and style you do and you have to start hanging out with like grownups and the weirdos at the comic shop and like, right? Or she has or she has like with the tape trading piece, like she gets from the Pat Healy character, a scene from a 60s Bollywood movie, like she doesn't even get the whole movie. She's like, I loved that video clip that you gave me. She doesn't even know what it is, the Indian dance routine. That's all she knows about it. And you just like got alternative culture in however it came to you, which is why she has to stay in contact with this guy, even though he treats her like shit. Right. Right. Yeah, which I do definitely understand like the disaffection from that vantage point where, you know, like the earnestness of like the 80s, let's say, or just like the monoculture earnestness of like, whatever would have been on TV at this time was like, I don't know, the step by steps and the family ties and the blah, blah, blah, like the overarching earnestness of what American culture would like everybody to be like, when I say walking defense mech isms, I don't necessarily mean without good reason, you know, because it's the people around them, even though I certainly wouldn't have the first impulses that they have. Like it's not just that they are different than them. It's that like there's a culture of expectation for them to be be homogenized, you know, in some way, shape or form into this other bigger culture. And yeah, so I definitely, I definitely understand that. But also, I think like the biggest like pressure point that I saw was not necessarily with any of the guys who are obviously just kind of like shitty, although Josh seemed fine, like he seemed fine to me. Yeah, Josh was like, don't fuck with this guy. Yeah, like Josh seemed nice. Yeah, Josh was also a representative of a guy of that time period that you didn't get to see in movies. Like he's like a soft boy. He's like a sweet, like gentle. He's the like the alt guy also who doesn't fit in anywhere, which I loved seeing that. Yeah, totally. The thing that like made my heart kind of just like feel super stressed was like this other girl that was trying to be friends with him. And obviously, Melora. Is that that's who it was? The one who the one who said this place is funky. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is it Marcy? Is Melora the name that she makes up when she's at the record party? Or does she just give that? Oh, I thought that that girl's name was Melora and they took her name to make up at the record party, which is either way that one, the enthusiastic girl. Yeah, the theater girl. I obviously, I probably wouldn't hang out with her either. But I think the fact that she was so earnestly like trying to be nice to them. Was she earnestly? I don't know. I think she's extremely fake. Like, because you see her do that to everybody. There's like a at the graduation party. She keeps doing that to other people. It's very like she has a mask on also and she's trying to figure out her thing. It's just in a friendly way where theirs is in like an off-putting way. But it's not, she's not being very genuine. Like that's not a natural way to interact with people. I think that's kind of how I interact with people, to be completely honest. Like I, I was not reading it as fake, but I also have less familiarity with this movie. I've only watched it once. And so maybe I was projecting my own self onto that. And I was like, I would be so hurt if I was trying to be nice to these girls and they were bitchy like that. Oh, of course. I mean, everybody, anybody would be if you're, of course, but that's not how you come across. Like you don't have, I mean, I'm meeting you for the first time and you don't have this like heightened, fawning enthusiasm. You have like a very neutrally, appropriately friendly demeanor. You have a very like normal approachability to you. You're not like, oh my God. Hi. Like, if people act like that to you, freaks me out. I'm, I am like, okay, this bitch, calm down. We don't know each other. This is, so Malora is the character's name. They do use her name at the party. It is just by Deborah Azar, which yeah, which makes it even funnier that they're using her name. But no, I, you know, I agree in that I think that their anger is like at the way people are. Like I don't think that their anger is individualized. I think that they are taking it individually, sort of in their interactions, because that's how they interface with this system. But I think like their eye rolling that the graduation opens with this like amazing cliche of this student who has obviously sort of gotten themselves into some trouble with drugs and alcohol and then is followed up by like this, whatever those three girls doing a synchronized dance routine. That horrible hip hop group. And you're just like, you're like, I fucking hate this. This is so fucking stupid. When you're in high school and feel that way, like no adult is legitimizing how you feel. No one is like, you were right to feel this way, unless you have like one or two good teachers. The other students aren't either. Everyone's acting like this is normal. One, it's clearly the dumbest thing in the world. And so you're just like, what every day, what the fuck is wrong with every day? Yes, that's so true. Well, because you're like, you feel like you're being gaslit. And like, you don't know where to put it. You're like, does no one else see what I can see? Yeah, totally. Totally. Well, I love how she's like, I liked her when he needs, like I liked her better when she was an alcoholic crack addict. Because yeah, it's like at least before she was being genuine like that. Right. Now she's being propped up by the school to like talk about specific sorts of behavior when then later she's having alcohol shoved into her mouth. At the party, she's still drinking. I love that. It's such an incredible moment because it's like, yep, everybody is full of shit. Let me, so let's, let's walk through the plot quickly, which is normally what we do. And then please feel free to jump in with any of the details. But we meet Enid and Rebecca at their high school graduation, as we just said. We begin with learning sort of how upset they are about being the face of this world. And sort of like what their overall disposition is. Like we know that they're friends and we know that they're tight and we know that up to this moment, they have only had each other. It's worth noting also in the actual graphic novel, it focuses much more on the length of their relationship and the depth of their relationship. Seymour becomes in the movie, at least a proxy for the screenwriters. One of whom is Daniel Klose, who, who wrote the book. And it's also worth noting that part of the reason why this decision was made to give Thoroburch more screen time as Thoroburch was actually 18 years old and Scarlett Johansson was 15. So just child acting laws made it not possible for her to be as present and they ended up pivoting a bit on the script. And we, again, we learned that they ultimately are hoping to find jobs and get apartments. They're not going to college, which again, this was so resonant with me was like, I realized it felt like the track of immediately going to college after seemed like a really stupid idea at the time. And like, I really relate to their idea of they're going to somehow circumvent the, this whole idea that like you come into later where you're like, I'm going to circumvent the system by like not doing the thing that you're supposed to do, which could end up hurting you in the long run, but you're still going to do it anyway. I relate to what their plan is. They're going to get jobs. They're going to get an apartment together. And Enid learns, unfortunately, that she does not have the credits to graduate. I find it very hard to believe this is the least believable part of the whole movie was that she was not, she needed an art class considering she is exuding art all the time out of her body. But I get it. I had trouble passing stuff in her teacher, Roberta initially, who's played by Alina Douglas in one of my favorite roles that she has ever been in, is like extremely sort of almost like a parody of a late second wave feminist art teacher, as you would imagine one to be. She introduces herself to the class by showing her short film, Mirror, Father, Mirror. So good. So perfect. And then if you, and then I noticed last night that you see the foundation names. Yes. To what are that? What are some of them? It's never too late. Why not Me Foundation? Which I was like, the Why Not Me Foundation needs to be real. Like such a good name for like an artistic plant. That's hilarious. Also, there's an acknowledgement to her parents in it, which is so funny. Yeah. Whereas like, I think her parents funded it. Yeah. It is just like the way that they're constantly roasting like art school and art as a commodity or something you can teach. There's just all these amazing satirical moments that are like multi-layered in the film, which I really love. And the film was actually made, what they commissioned a video artist to make it. So it was made for the film by an, you know, expressionist, experimental filmmaker, female filmmaker. So I think that that's really cool. So it's really layered, right? Like you actually have a video artist making sort of a parody of a video artist film. Yeah. So it's like this is like commingling of like satire and like genuine expression, which is so much what Enid is like wrestling with, like in art, which I think to your point, Alex, it's really interesting. I don't think that it's not believable. I actually think it's fascinating. There's more depth to her character in the art class, like push and pull. This is what is explored through this art class in the summer, right? Like she is talented. She could be going to art school. This is somebody who is so, she's pushing so hard against everything that she just keeps getting in her own way. And she's not wrong, but she doesn't, she has not figured out how to wield her displeasure with society, her great knowing of the structure. And she's pushing it away so hard that she's getting in her own way to actually free, liberate herself and do something with her skills, right? Because like she learns how to both sort of manipulate and interact with her teacher in a way that benefits her. But then she also does learn kind of how to explore society through art. And she also learns that she can just do her own thing, but she blows all of that up, right? So of course she failed art in high school. She's not locked in. She doesn't care. She's doing what she wants to do. And she doesn't want to be bullied, especially about the thing that she wants. And the only way to get back at those teachers is failing class. Right. Well, your approach too, before you know anything, and again, this is what I relate to, is often like full withdrawal and disaffection. It's not targeted, you know, criticism and disaffection. It's like usually just like, well, fuck this, fuck everyone, I'm out. Exactly. And what's resonant with my own sort of experiences at this time is that when she actually does the thing the teacher asks her to do, she gets institutionally in trouble, which I feel like it's also like a big, you know, highly resonant. That is such a great point. Yeah, that's a good point. I love that. And she's not, you know, I do love, she like tries to defend it, but because it's not there, she tries to like, let's let the artist speak on behalf. It's interesting because Eliana Douglas' character is corny, but she does also believe what she's saying. Yeah, totally. Because she doesn't respect the art unless it's like meaningful, right? So this is like the right, this is the filmmakers making fun of that like, all art has to mean something. And we're sort of stuck in that moralistic period right now of this idea that art can have a moral center. I think we're really struggling with that as a society. And it's interesting to see that kind of replayed because that was happening a lot in the 90s. So now it's citrical and being there again is really interesting. Anyways, that's a side, a side part. But as the movie goes on, we see that Eliana Douglas actually really is passionate about art. She does want these kids to be interested in it. And she sees something in Enid and wants to support her and wants to give her the platform to speak on it. But because Enid's not taking it seriously, she misses out on that opportunity. And you see the rest of the society, I don't know, we don't know this woman who's like, that's such a big word for you, you know, to the teacher, like we don't know who these other people, these other adults in Eliana's characters like world are, but they don't take her seriously either. Yeah. As an artist, which is very interesting. You have to wonder like what her background is, like who was she in high school, you know? So there's like this push and pull of like, again, here's another person trying to make it an adult who's like, I'm going to make it in society, but still try to stay true to myself. And how she ends up being kind of like corny and impotent in a way that Enid is like scared of and doesn't want to have that life. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll get there further because there are things to be said for sure about like what is happening by ways of the art tension. But in the meantime, the girls, as we had said earlier, they take up this personal ad, excuse me, they don't take out a personal ad, they respond to a personal ad, which is basically like a missed connections ad where ultimately they meet Seymour, who is looking to meet a blonde woman, I think he saw or experienced in some way at an airport, at a connection shuttle at an airport. And they go to a diner to see where he thinks he's meeting this woman who he had a misconnection with, and they were just fucking with him. And they go with the help of Josh, who's given them a ride there and observe. Again, Inderis doesn't want to be there, has tried to talk them out of it rightfully. So I get the impression that Josh is like a year or two older because he already has his four-time job at the 7-Eleven, which in the movie is the Sidewinder, which I just love all the details, all the ice cream at the Sidewinder is western-themed, very cute. But doesn't it feel like he was the cool kid one or two years older than them? So he has this little bit of insight and a little more humanity. His brain developed a little more. He's trying to stop this from happening, and he's in misery the entire time. Brad Renfrow, RIP, we miss you. Oh my god, the best. So cute. He has just always looks like that. I know, just must. He's like a baby kitten. Oh, so cute. I just love him. And he does so much with so little. This time I was really reflecting on how I wish we had more at Josh. But he is just wanting to disappear in this booth as they're watching Seymour arrive and get more and more down-trodden as the time goes by and this woman never shows up. This is where, and you noted this, Luce, earlier, this is where we begin to see the cracks in the relationship is that Rebecca doesn't care. She does not feel bad for this. And it's also worth noting, and I think that we begin to see this in Enid at the graduation party, where they're being ruthless kind of about everybody. But then I forget what the character's name is, but it's the boy who's eating cake. Dennis. Yeah, Dennis. I wrote about Dennis. Sorry, I don't want to interrupt you. Well, please go go go for it. Tell us about because that's like where we begin to see what it is. Struggle is. Okay, so that hit me this viewing harder than ever before. Obviously, that's a moment, but there was this like, there's this amazing push in on Enid's face. And Thorough Birch, you know, has not, she's done a few really serious movies. She's done a ton of credits, but like it's really just like this in American beauty, where she's had like the legitimacy to like act, you know, and she's doing like so much with so little micro expressions on her face, which are so fascinating. So they have been talking shit about everybody at the graduation party, I think, rightfully so. All these people seem like idiots. But then she, you're standing off, they're looking at people. She's like, wow, we're never going to get to see Dennis again. And Rebecca just goes good, which also like think about how great it is there. What is it? It's 2001. So they're like a year away from Friendster, maybe. So like, aim is happening. You know, they're going to see these people all the time. Aim is just chatting. I see you as just chatting Friendsters when you start putting photos up. So like they don't even, or seconds away from being connected forever. And they don't feel it. Anyways, I do think that's an interesting time capsule of 2001. Yeah. But then Enid's pleas with her. And she's like, no, really think about that. It's actually totally depressing. And that's when like the kid goes from a two shot to starting to zoom in on Enid. And Rebecca, as a two shot is changing to a extreme close up, Rebecca's not even looking at Enid. She's like glancing around the party. So it's like, they are being separated by the camera. They're being separated by their own. Visual, like their actual facial expressions. And then there's like really intense sadness, washes over Enid's face. And, you know, we don't know anything about Dennis. We just see him ungracefully eating cake. But you can tell by the way he's styled, bad haircut, out of style, glasses, clothes that don't fit him quite right. He's a little bit frumpy looking. He's a nerd, right? And they're nerds. They're outcasts. Dennis is an outcast. Clearly they still think they're like above other outcasts because they're like cool. But like there's a kindred spiritness there, right? That Enid is like, oh, we're one in the same. And like, what does this really mean? She's realizing that like she hates everybody, but she kind of likes this bubble that they've created, right? Us against everybody else. And she has no idea this future. They don't have college plans. Rebecca's obsessing about adulthood. We see that coming up. The future is wide open. And she's so scared that her future could be like corny, that she doesn't want to engage with it at all. And the movie becomes at this point, her trying to hang on to everything that they had so tightly that she ends up rupturing that childhood bubble that she's trying so hard to protect. And this is the moment that it's starting. This is the moment where Rebecca's like, she's looking away as if to be like, I'm looking towards the future. And Enid is looking in as if to be like, no, this is what we need to protect. And it's like a me, it's so subtle. And I just love that moment where like, even though you see them have fun for like five or six more scenes, if you start, look, there are these moments where their eye contact, they're looking away from each other and a lot of scenes, which I think is really interesting. Yeah, I think that a lot of like the staging like of all of their bodies, it's such great storytelling and like the show don't tell department where it's like really not over explaining to you these like very subtle emotional things where many things are true at the same time. And I, I don't know, it's really hard to get movies that do that well and make you feel like you know what's going on and also give you lots to think about and lots to latch on to and lots to be like, oh, I resonate with this, but then like, I maybe don't associate with that. And like, there's so much space in which to, you know, navigate your own depths. It's really, it's really well done in that way. Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I think when I listened to the, again, the Bechtel cast episode, and I know that, I mean, I think like Jamie and Caitlin, not to bring two people who haven't talked about this movie for six years since when this episode came out into it, but my takeaway was their frustration. The movie didn't tell you, didn't have a morality. Oh, I love that about it. And me too. And like, that's the like, I loved that. I love this about this movie. And like, even when it gets messy, because like, I would argue if they made this movie, if I made this movie, we would not have the Cook's Chicken be a thing because specifically because, unless the commentary in my mind is that like, you have white people and white people and you never have black people be able to talk to it, even though they are in all of the scenes, which feels like sort of like the whiteness of it all. But even so, I like that this movie doesn't tell us how to feel about Seymour and Enid eventually. Like, I love that. I love that. Like, they are stylistically heroes in their approach, but you don't leave this movie being like, those two girls know how to live. Like, you're kind of like, they're as confused as everybody else. That's, that's resonant to me. Yeah. Well, because art reflects life, right? And there's no, it's messy the way that, that life is messy. And there's no morality in a lot of things. Yeah, for sure. It's up to the viewer to like, kind of decide where they're at. And Caroline, I think you make such a great point. There's so few films these days that are this subtle. It's actually something that I really crave and I miss. And it just feels like there's this real, there's this huge gap, right? There's like amazing stuff being made in like a DIY hyper indie world that does still have this subtlety. But this like middle, like, you know, one $2 million indie movie is like barely being made anymore. And larger movies all have so much meddling in it. And they think we're all so stupid, everything has to be spelled out, or it does have to be moral. And it's obnoxious to watch morality play after morality play. It's refreshing to watch something where the filmmakers and artists respect the viewer enough that they can walk away with what they think, you know, it's something that people have been talking a lot about since David Lynch passed away. We just had his, you know, passing anniversary last week is like, that's something that you see other artists admire so much is his desire to let the viewer walk away with their impression and their reading of the film. And this is an aside, I just, I crave that. And I want to see more of that. And I do think that that's part of what makes this movie so special. For sure. Yeah, I really appreciated your framing of this as like, yeah, it's not a morality play. And that's like what's being shoved down our throats constantly. And yeah, like any type of like homogenized culture, like the things that they are pushing against is also like the status quo that they are being pushed towards or that like society would be pushing them towards is like a morality play of some way, shape or form, you know, like it's the right thing to go to college. It's the right thing to get a job. It's the right thing to do X, Y, and Z. And I think like rightfully so, because like we live in like generally speaking, like a pretty morally obtuse culture, you know, in the US, like I do understand why there is an impulse to have that all the time. But usually it's like not necessarily like the big media that we're getting that are all these morality plays all the time or not necessarily actually about like questionings about like what is right and what is wrong. It's like, we think that homogenized culture is moral. And so therefore we want you to be in step with the moralizing that we have decided is correct. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that. And whereas, I don't know, I would argue that what is most moral is teaching people how to think and act critically and like to really know how to like examine things and that we actually are going to have a more a better society if people know how to interact with art and form their own opinions that like giving anybody a message, whether it's a message I completely agree with. And yeah, it's like, of course, the stuff that's like very like queer friendly and like all about community and like smashing fascism, of course, those are all good things. Like a lot of them, the moral messaging stuff that I find annoying is actually stuff I agree with, like they're pushing points that I want. But I don't like art being like wielded in that way. And I don't think that that helps people form opinions that ultimately or helps teach people how to come up with their own ideas that actually could be helpful. It's like, it's just also propaganda. Even though it's propaganda, I agree with. I think that's like something that we don't talk about enough. Propaganda is bad, but some of it you could still agree with, you know. Yeah, for sure. So back to the plot, they, again, we have the split between the two of them. They decide to follow Seymour to his house for Josh still hostage in his own car. And they see, I think I can't remember if it's the same day or the next day they go and see that he's selling records and they go and engage him. Oh yeah, they make him follow him to his house to see where he lives. But then he made in Rebecca Go back on their own time to try to figure out where he lives in the apartment complex so they can keep an eye on. Yeah. And it's while they're walking over there, I think that they first experienced the man on the bench who's waiting for the bus that is never going to come. It's been out of service for two years. He looks extraordinarily disheveled. He looks like a Charles Bukowski character. And he's like just kind of sitting on a bench waiting. Yeah, like he's been fired from a job or something. Yeah. And has been sitting on that bench ever since. And they, I think that it's around here that they inform him that the bus is not coming. And he says that's what you think, which is the beginning of our relationship with this bus. So yeah, they engage Seymour for the first time. Rebecca can't roll her eyes hard enough in the situation. Enid is like genuinely, I think, charmed by him, charmed by the fact that he sells a record for $1.75. He knows people who have all the original recordings. He puts stuff in bags. They have a very cute interaction. And I think this is, I'd be curious to know what both of your takes are on why Enid is immediately drawn to him. But for me, knowing that she has no idea what is next and she's panicking in the face of the fact that she has no idea what's next, she has somehow miraculously found a moderately close proxy to the kind of person she wants to be, but she doesn't know. She doesn't know all that yet. She's just gotten a glimpse of it. I would agree with that. I also think that Seymour for all of his flaws is a very sincere grounded person. And like, and I don't see, yes, Enid is defensive often, but I mostly see Enid bristling at how insincere and disingenuous everybody around her is. And her defensiveness is more of like a, I don't want this. I don't even want it near me. These people are out of their fucking minds. And finally, she's letting her guard down a bit, because she's like, this is finally an adult that I can relate to who is literally just wanting to talk about the same things I find interesting and is so truly not acting anyway for anybody else except for himself. And I think, yeah, she, you know, later Seymour says something about how I, I didn't think you'd be more interested, interested in me and as anything other than like a quirky kind of curiosity, you know, and I think that that's part of it. But she lets her guard down in a way where she doesn't even do that when other people are curiosities, right? Like the Satanists are a curiosity to her and she's still sort of laughing at them. At no point is she like laughing at Seymour post discovering his humanity, you know, which, and yeah, and Rebecca is like, over this shit already. This is not the adult life that she's envisioning for herself. Yeah. Enid is getting closer to Seymour over time. She gets Rebecca to go to a party at his house. They see all the old record collectors. We get a jump scare appearance from David Cross, who plays a real classic kind of guy. Yeah. His, his, he delivered his land so well. He's so perfectly typecast for that with his stupid little sideburns. Yeah, this is truly perfect. And as they get closer, a couple of things are happening. One, Enid decides that she's going to set Seymour up with a date and find him a romantic interest. And the other is that she has found a poster of, he works at Cook Chicken. She's found a poster sort of revealing its racist background, which shows like a grotesque character of a black, not spokesperson, but what would that be called? Yeah, just a caricature. He's like their mascot. Yeah. And he reveals to her the racist history of the company, which sort of like through the processing of changing the name and then sort of changing the faces, which go from like that guy to like a non caricature black chef to a black guy to like a white woman is a really fascinating sort of trajectory of the logo, logo. That's what I was looking for. What's interesting about that too, just from a stylistic point is he's walking Enid through that evolution in a scrapbook. And all of those designs were drawn by Daniel Close, who's the original Ghost World artist. So it's interesting that he illustrated all of that. Yeah, a lot of his art shows up. Is it him or is it Crumb's daughter who is the sketchbook? It's Sophie Crumb. Sophie Crumb did the sketchbook, which I also love. It's like a fun connection to the art world. And then also, you know, Terry's first film, Crumb. Yeah, there's a lot of Crumb DNA in here, which is really great. And she, and this is like, this is fascinating for a lot of reasons. I mean, I think like for me, it was learning these bits again, like the internet existed in that you could talk to people on message boards, but there weren't like Wikipedia didn't exist. There wasn't like a comprehensive, you could get like an Encarta CD-ROM at your library. There was Encyclopedia Britannica that they taught us how to use in school. Totally. Nothing synthesized the kind of knowledge that you would learn from a fellow kindred weirdo who could give you an overview of the story of something like you first experiencing as a young white girl, structural racism for the first time, and then have nowhere to go with it. You're like, I don't know where I'll find more. Maybe I'll find a zine that talks about like, there was just fucking nowhere to learn information. And it is trying to like suss this out. It's like so shocking. And I think like, I think a lot of white people who care about shit can think back to like, what was their sentient moment where you realized everything was really fucked up? And it is like this moment where you're like, it's not that you think corporations are good. You just did not realize how every single corporation and political body has been rooted in racism and oppression. And like that's so much of like what waking up and getting connected to, you know, trying to not be the oppressor anymore, like is so much of that moment where you're like, wait, fuck, these people are also completely complicit in oppressive objectification of other people. And so she's trying to talk and but she also sees how much Seymour is interested in early and mid-century Americana. And she's grappling with that idea that I think I still see people connecting with and trying to figure out now is like really loving aspects of early American culture. But then knowing that this is like a time when people were horribly like oppressed and abused. And so she says, like, are you saying that things are better? They were better than even though they had stuff like this. And Seymour has to admit, no, I guess things are better now. It's complicated because people still hate each other, but they're just better at hiding it. And I think there's like this is the thing that Enid's been able to feel for a long time, right, the disingenuousness of people. And he is stating out loud what's been annoying her about people. Obviously, for her, it's not connected to oppression. It's just the general like apathy of people towards each other and things that matter. But I think that this is just a really interesting thesis of the film in general, is that like, yeah, we see this more now in our current society, because things are at such a boiling point. But for decades, I don't know, I think until like Trump got elected, it was like, yes, this racism and anti-Semitism and hatred has been here the whole time. This is not new. It's just that people didn't talk about it. It wasn't cooth. And that's something that she's, I don't know, interested in the first time, which I think is her trajectory into actual adulthood. Yeah, we just don't get to figure it out yet. Well, and she's, and she up to this moment, like we see these other interesting moments where like for her, it's as much, it's about being accepted for her outsider status, but there's not necessarily like information backing it. It is to your point, we say a feeling, but she doesn't know sort of like any of the history that is underneath it. Yes, exactly. Well put. You know, like right down to like poor Rebecca is just trying to get their apartment. And she's like, we need to pretend that we're yuppies and Enid dies her hair immediately. Is that the bright green? Green to tank it, but then gets called on her hair and nobody likes it. And she dies it back black. Like she is still, doesn't know what she is. Figuring it out. Green. Yeah, totally. And she, but in so like, this is kind of the first encounter of all that. And then to put this in context of the rest of the plot, we've had a couple of interactions in the art class where like her illustration, which is not sort of like tied to any greater meaning, sort of like greater like social meeting is, you know, I think like criticized here and there by the teacher, but there is this student who's like a more quote, like, you know, serious social issues artist who has just presented a found object. Found art object. Yeah, found our object. And so Enid brings in the poster to present as her found art object. Everyone in the class is put off by it. The teacher sees in her finally growth like within her artistry and decides to put her art in this sort of group show that's coming up while also offering her a really out of left field, a full right scholarship to at least a urban art program. Go get it. You know, she's such a kid still that she doesn't understand what an incredible opportunity that is. And she's still like, this is dumb. It's so painful to watch as a grownup now. Or you're like, fuck, this is your ticket out, you dumb dumb. Like I understand why you're so mad and you're right to be mad. It's so hard to watch as a former Enid where I'm just like, you are right. But also you will never escape if you don't take these little crumbs of opportunities that come at you. Stop getting your own fucking way, dumb, dumb. Right. Yeah, I that's this is what I find so painful about watching this movie now is I, you know, for a full decade after this came out, I was a full on like, yeah, goddamn right, burn it down. And like, I was often in the house, you know, like I was often burning down a structure I was in. Right. And so watching her like not know kind of what she's passing up. Yeah. And it literally being the answer to the fantasy that she discusses, which is just like getting the fuck out of town is a real bummer. All while this is happening, Seymour starts to the real person who who is trying to get in touch with through the misconnection gets in touch. Her name is Dana. She's just a real tragic, a real tragic real estate agent who loves that song solid as a rock and make some dance to it. It's so you know, it's amazing. I love this because this movie is so good. It's so well written. There's just a great video store scene we see earlier in the film. They're just like wandering around the video store, both so disaffected. They don't want to rent anything. And you see the video store customer ask for eight and a half by Fellini and the, you know, the guy from Mahal and Drive who has the dream about the dumpster creature is the video store clerk. A restaurant owner in Venice Beach, by the way. Oh no way. Oh my God. In real life. Yeah. His family, he's got a whole family legacy of his whole family ran like a restaurant there for like 50 years. Yeah. Oh wow. That's so cool. God, I love him as the Spokesman and Mad Men too. Say, oh yes, yes. Yeah, Dicky or something. It's so good. Phenomenal character actor. I just adore him. So yeah, he's so, he has this great little moment as a video store clerk who doesn't understand that eight and a half is a Fellini film and yes, nine and a half weeks is in the erotic drama section. I love this as like making fun of Block Buster because I had this like exact same experience in high school where I was like looking for a Clockwork Orange and the guy at the counter had never heard of it and I was like 17 and this person was older than me and it was very much like an Indian moment where I was like, everybody's too stupid and like couldn't believe that they didn't have this like very classic film. But that was on me for not going to the indie video store. Actually, no, I went to the indie video store and it had been stolen from them because that is one of the movies that is like a degenerate movie. So it always gets stolen just like gummo and like nowhere. I have a whole list of degenerate movies that you can never keep in stock at a video store because like art school weirdos take them from you. But yeah, Clockwork Orange wasn't at the indie video store. They didn't even have it at Block Buster. Yeah, so anyways, they're on the, you know, the speaker at the fake Block Buster. There is this voice talking about the flower that drank the moon, which is this like blockbuster like fake drama, you know, probably like award bait movie. And you just hear it in passing. But then when we get to this scene with Dana and Seymour on their first date, they're talking about going to the movies and she's like, I'm so excited. This director is a genius. Did you see his first film, the flower that drank the moon? And that's your like indication that this woman's a fucking idiot, you know? Yeah. Along with earlier meeting Enid's dad, who's obviously who's awesome. We played by Bob Bellaban. And before we even like go into their house, we hear the oil company ad where it's like, is it crazy to think that an oil company can care about the environment? We don't think so. So funny. Yeah, that's so good. Exactly. You know, like this is why she's angry all the time. Yeah, Bob Bellabans, we haven't talked about him a lot. He's an interesting character because she clearly like resents him for being a single dad and not having like a good female connection in her life, which she's clearly craving. But also he is a sweet guy. He doesn't have a spine. And I think that that is really hard for Enid. But like, it's a really interesting character. He's such a pushover when she resents, but he does seem to really love her and they can't connect, which it just makes me so sad every time you see him reaching for her. And she's like, no, I will not let my guard down around you. You're just another adult failure. And we just don't know where her mom is, too, which is like a fascinating thing to offer and give no information on, which I really love about it. Good point. And so Bellaban has been divorced, reconnects with this woman who maybe was her stepmom in a stepmom role for like a couple years at some point. Maxine. Maxine, she finds she finds that devastating. Played perfectly by Terry Gar. I mean, truly Maxine is perfect. You know, everything about Maxine in one minute, it's like just really perfect. And then at the same time, Seymour, who she's gotten close to, has now reconnected with this woman Dana. So like, these two men in her life are reconnecting or connecting with these women. Older blonde women. These older blonde women. More corny, right? And that's like the worst thing that Enid is like, where are the women that I can connect to? Right. And it's interesting because she like pushes Seymour towards going on this date with Dana. And I'm wondering if she doesn't think it's going to work out. Well, she says that to Rebecca. She's like, I want to be around for when he calls and it's clearly like it has failed. That's right. Yeah. Like I think she's counting on it not working. And being there to like pick up the pieces. But she underestimates how you know, the settling of middle age. Like she doesn't understand that like the suburban malaise of like getting to a point, not finding your person, holding out, being too picky. And then feeling panicked, which both clearly Dana and Seymour have were like, I'd rather be with someone than alone, even though they're not a good match for each other. Yeah. And that when when Enid catches whiff of the settling, it's just one more thing that like horrifies and disappoints her. Like why is everybody around her settling? Yeah. Right. So the school, the art show happens. Enid is not there for it because she has had a falling out with Rebecca that she's upset about. So over at the school, the show is happening where parents, again, important to know, largely parents of color, who I'm sure have some concerns about this thing that's being presented with no context because the artist is not there are responding accordingly. And then and then the art teacher, you know, says, as you said, Lucette earlier, let's let the artist speak to it. But Enid is not there. Enid upset about the fight is over at Seymour's house looking for somebody to be like, everything is fine. And someone to be interested in what she's doing, right? She's like, well, you'd be my date to the stupid art thing, right? It's not stupid. This is where she's truly being defensive. It's like, it's not dumb, but she cannot act like she cares about anything because she might get rejected. And then she, you know, does kind of get rejected. Yeah. And she, well, I love the scene where she pulls the champagne out. And she was like, what's he's like, do you she's like, do you have anything to drink? He's like, I got some root beer. And it's to celebrate. That's a different scene. Oh, so this is after this stuff happens with the school. Yeah, yeah, because then she comes back to see more upset and she wants to get drunk. Right. So it is. Yeah, it's important to note that she has, I think she is at this point learned that she did not receive the scholarship because the school was upset about the showing. Yeah, she comes in with her application to be like, okay, I'm ready. I am going to do this because she's realizing she doesn't fit in anywhere. You know, she doesn't know this whole hubbub happened. She didn't see the free paper. She didn't know the newspaper was there. And she realizes she has she failed the class again. So she's going to have to take it again. She's stuck, which is interesting because she's been wanting to preserve this time in her life, right? But not in this way. So she's sort of like monkey paw, like gets what she asks for. And then she goes and she really blows things up with Rebecca. She's sick of everybody. Why can't I just do what I want? Which is so interesting because it's like, this is exactly what you were making fun of Rebecca for. You said that you want your own apartment, you're living in some kind of seventh grade fantasy. Well, who's really living in the fantasy? You know, Rebecca's actually moving forward wanting an apartment is not a childish fantasy. We're in it stuck in the childish fantasy. Why can't I do what I want? Why can't I make the choices? Why can't I do anything? Why is everybody telling me what I need to do? It's just she's like really like projecting there. And she yeah, she gets in this horrible fight with Rebecca over the apartment. And so she's not getting her scholarship. Her friendship feels like it's ruined with Rebecca. And then she goes over to Seymour's to get drunk. And that's when she decides to steal the champagne that Dana is saving for there. What is it? Two month anniversary? Two month anniversary, which is so funny. Such a perfect detail. And they yeah, there's a lot of you know, when you drink a bottle of champagne and you're feeling bad and you're leaning into your 18, you're so young and you're leaning into your 45 year old friend. Oh my God, I know what happens. Yeah. Oh gosh, it's real. And it's interesting because she you know, to watch this movie as both a teenager who feels like she knows everything and then also and a grown up and an old grown up who has their life together. Like, it's like, oh my God, I can really see both sides of this where you're like, of course, me and Seymour are the same. Like, she's seeing them on the same level, which I think is what a lot of mature I'm doing quotes, I'm doing heavy air quotes, because that's what predators say mature for their age. I recognize that that's a predator phrase, but we all saw the air quotes. I don't think teenagers can be mature for their age. But you know, like this type of character who's world weary, you know, wise beyond her ears doesn't relate to other kids her age, right? Like she does see them as equals and it's up to adults to be like, we can be fun friends in public, but like we're not going to hang out at each other's houses, you know, and because Seymour actually is stunted, doesn't have his life together. You know, he's put up his hands many times. But like at this point, he's like, wow, I mean, to his credit, he doesn't go forward with anything until she's like really, really pushing it. But still, there was many points for him to be like, yeah, this relationship isn't appropriate. But he is emotionally stunted. He does have things in common with Enid. Enid is like, again, thinking like, we already know that Enid and Rebecca have had sex with people that they're not virgins, there's been many jokes about that throughout the series, right? Or throughout the movie. So like, we don't know what her other sexual relationships have been like. But because she hasn't had a serious, you know, other partner, it seems like she's probably just, you know, for the plot. Enid's a very for the plot person. And I think right now she needs validation that she's good and interesting. And I think she still is trying to do things for the plot. And she's drunk. And Seymour is not very drunk. And he is also lonely. And now is like this like young woman is aggressively saying, yes, I've always wanted you tell me that you love me, let's run away together. And he's not recognizing this as sort of like childish fantasy. Right. All the shit has hit the fan. Enid is slept with Seymour, Seymour is slept with Enid. Seymour, they wake up, he has real loving do eyes and has the arms around her. And she's nothing but regret. Right. She just has. Oh God, she's just like, oh, shit. And again, she doesn't have the language to be like, that was fun. I was drunk last night, you know what, I don't want anything serious right now. I don't know what we're going to do. She's just like, I'm going to ghost him because I'm a kid. And he's like, I'm going to play in a life together because I'm a grown up. Like it is such a mismatched situation. Right. I will say, I mean, the thing that's impossible to know about, right? Like the thing that's like impossible to internalize from like now to then is like, people didn't talk about sex. Like people didn't go, oh, that thing that just happened, like here's where I stand. There was not like a culture like conversation and communication that has since evolved. Like people were like, I'm just going to avoid this situation. Like this is bad. And like you could because there was no way to connect to people if they didn't answer the phone. You just got to never see them again. Like you could truly ghost. Yeah. You could as she does a little bit, she kind of like goes off while he gets in trouble at work, I believe is fired at work for the fact that the they see the free the picture and the paper of the old racist caricature. Yeah. He also is either right before right after this. He goes to Dana to let her know that the relationship is over. He is separate. What does he say? He's like, I stayed in relationships for years to avoid this moment, which is. Yes. And Dana leading up to this, he's like, I've never said this to anybody. And then it cuts to Dana's face smiling and she thinks he's going to say he loves her. Right. And he breaks. And I'm like, God, you don't, you don't see this part. But I'm like, does he say that he and Enid are going to be together? You know, because Dana's clocked that this relationship is doesn't make sense earlier on. Right. Yeah. I do wonder. He is upset. He needs to talk to Enid about what happened. He goes to the her house. Enid's not there, which is interesting because she's supposed to be at Rebecca's because she's like, begged Rebecca to be like, please, I'm sorry, we do need to live together. I will work at computer station because Maxine will get me this horrible job. And like, I do, I want to clock this moment I just wrote about on my letterboxed because it's like such an odd thing that this has happened. But I love this song that she puts on the record player that a ribbon and a smile, a smile and a ribbon by patients and prudence is like a 1956 like novelty song that she puts on her stereo while she is packing up to go move in with Rebecca. She just begged Rebecca to let her move in with her. And you could see that she's hating it. It's like this childish sort of song that feels very innocent and it's all about like getting people to like you and let's fake things so that people like you. And it's dawning on her while she's packing up this garish computer station t-shirt that this is not her. She cannot fake it. She's never been able to fake it. She has fucked with Rebecca all summer long. And now again, she said she's going to be over there at noon with all these boxes she's packing up and she just cannot do it. And it's interesting because this song, which I've never heard in any other piece of media, was chosen to be the credit sequence song for the new Welcome to Deery. It's spin-off series. And I was just like, amazed. They use the entire song, which Ghost World doesn't, but two and a half minute intro. And I was so fascinated by this. And I read a lot about like how they chose it. And the creator and director talked about how this is a song about innocence and how in, you know, the it world, these kids are their innocence being corrupted and they can't, they see that the adults around them are failing them. And they know that there's a dark undercurrent to society that they have to fight. And it like, it corrupts their innocence in like these two different ways. Like it violates them violently, but also it shows them the adult world and who's safe and who's not. And I'm reading this interview, and I'm just so deeply fascinated by two sets of directors and music supervisors in two different generations who hear this song from the 1950s that is so basic, means nothing. It's a novelty song. But they both are struck by the feeling of like falseness, you know, and how the song in both Welcome to Deery genre so different from Ghost World. And in Ghost World, they use it in the same way to have this like loss of innocence and this like realizing how much the world around them is fake. I'm very fascinated by this. I wrote a long essay about it. But I don't know, I think that's like a really interesting is like this turning point in the film where there's no going back. Enid has gone back and forth so many times and now she realizes that she can't go back. So she ghosts Seymour, she ghosts Rebecca, nobody knows where she is. And it causes Seymour to have a mental breakdown where he like goes into tax. Josh at the Sidewinder, he ends up in the hospital. He gets choked up by Will Forte, which is my favorite appearance in this whole movie as Will Forte is the guy with the mullet. The nunchucks. Yeah, Doug. Hungry enough to chew the crotch out of a rag doll. You also invented Homoes is my favorite line in any movie. Oh God. Yeah, the Greeks invented democracy. Yeah, the writing. The writing is so good. So fucking funny. Yes, as Steve Fischemme winds up in the hospital, Enid finally reappears to show him, you know, Rebecca sort of spoils. She hates, Rebecca sees Seymour as the reason their relationship fell apart. Like Enid never takes responsibility for it and Rebecca never forces her to, which almost seems like a final act of kindness in their friendship. And she blames it all on Seymour as being the catalyst, even though we the viewers see this happening as soon as that graduation party. So, you know, Rebecca lets it out that he was set up. They did not meet at the garage sale. They fucked with him and it sends him into this like nervous breakdown. And so Enid actually shows up again. We don't know where she was. She wasn't at home. She wasn't with Seymour. She wasn't with Rebecca. She might have just been walking around. We don't really know what she was up to during her little ghosting session. But yeah, she goes and she shows Seymour her whole sketchbook. It's not just that one page where they were fucking with him and it's filled with pictures of him. And she says, you're like my hero. And you sort of see that they have repaired their relationship and she repairs her relationship with Rebecca by saying she doesn't know what she's going to do, but she's going to be okay. They both sort of begrudgingly accept that their friendship as it was is over, which I think is really interesting. They're sweet to each other in that moment, but there's like a melancholy aspect to it. Yeah. And I remember at the end of the comic, like it's, well, it's because you have sort of more time with the characters because you're reading a comic, but like there is a real melancholy split where they both kind of know that they're not going to see each other. They're not going to see each other as much anymore. And then there's a, you know, Enid kind of acknowledges the beauty of Rebecca's coming of, you know, sort of coming into who she is. But I like, yeah, I like that we're handling that here is that they've just kind of, they've kind of acknowledged you're accepted where they're at right now. And it's been a bumpy road to get there, including Seymour, including everything that's happened to this book. You're holding hands. You know, it's a very sweet moment. There's a lot of tenderness between them. Yeah. It's really nice. It's the first time they can feel it. Yes. Yeah. You're right. There isn't tenderness between them. We don't get to see how much they love each other really until this moment. Yeah. One just like little subtle thing that is great about this writing in this scene also is when you're looking through her journal or when Seymour goes through the journal and sees the drawing of Josh with the hearts around it. I think that's such a well done way because we didn't really, or at least me as a viewer, I didn't know enough about Enid at the beginning of the movie when she was being mean to Josh. I was like, she's really being a bitch, but she's being like a bitch to everybody. So it's like, maybe this is just like democratic. But then it's fun to be able to see like, oh yeah, the whole time. Obviously, obviously this was like a crush and she didn't know how to like act on her feelings. And this is just one more evidence point of her having emotions that she does not know how to label. She does not know how to deal with and is just kind of like putting them out there into the world because she doesn't know how to do it. And I find that really endearing. And then also, you know, it goes into the rest of the scene, but I thought that that was well done and subtle also. And they don't like spell it out for you, you know? Totally. Yeah. I mean, so much of her arc is about, and they give me the arc in the class is about being like, these drawings are clever, but what do they mean? Like your art is clever, but what is it saying or what does it mean? And like part of the whole, her whole arc is being able to connect like the things that she observes in her feelings about those things, which is something I've only recently learned how to do. So, you know, she's got a 20 year start on me. Well, and it's interesting because like Elia Douglas's character is so focused on everything, having a political meeting, which, you know, Enid bristles at not because I mean, you know, they're teenagers, they're a little apolitical, their brains aren't formed yet. But I think what's interesting is that Elia, the art teacher is kind of missing the point. She's not fully connecting with Enid either because like, art doesn't have to be political to mean something. There's so many meanings to art, right? And I think if she was able to talk more about like emotion as being powerful and passion as being powerful, right? Because I think Enid's feeling defensive because her drawings, her sketchbook is so meaningful to her, right? Like Caroline said, she can't access those words. She doesn't know how to verbalize it yet. But like that is clearly the most important thing to her when she's taking stuff over to Rebecca's apartment, like she's pretending she's going to move in the one box, the first box she brings over the stuff that means the most to her, her sketchbook is in there. And the other stuff she's like, I'll bring the other stuff over eventually. Which is like all of her living stuff. Yes. Isn't that interesting, right? Very childish again. And I don't say that derisively. She's a kid. But like, she doesn't have the words to say the meaning is that like, I like Don Knott's like, I think Don Knott's is interesting. I like his contribution to society. You know, she's not able to say like, Oh, the way he looks fascinates me as such a face that I find like fun to draw. And like, she doesn't have any words to speak about anything, right? And it's like the art teacher is also not doing a good job talking about all the range of emotions that art can make you feel she is too centered on making stuff like have a political or social or personal like with that when she sees the guy who's drawing is the leader and she goes, yeah, so funny. God, there's that greatest side where she has that other piece of art that looks really violent. And she's like, I think this one's Philip. Oh my God, it's so funny. Her art was meaningful before it was political. But yes, she two year point, Carolyn, she doesn't know how to talk about any meaning at all in any way. Yeah. And neither do any of the adults around her, obviously. And yeah, the art teacher, I find the most disappointing out of all of the adults, because like she's the one person who probably could help her and even does offer to help her, but just like truly can't because she herself is, you know, yeah, it's just like everybody around her is stunted in a way that does reflect reality. Like there's nobody that really truly has their shit together fully all the time. But also, I found like the cooks chicken thing so interesting, because it's like that was a really interesting scene to me to see like, okay, Enid like brings in this piece of art that is like doing what the art teacher wants her to do, which is like have greater meaning and she is growing in these interesting ways. And like, obviously, we're not operating under like real rules, because we're operating under screenwriting rules, you know, and like we do need like the plot to further along. But like that to me was like, wow, what a great opportunity to like have an in class discussion and then be like, also, if you have to describe why it's not racist, maybe, maybe this is like not something that we put on display. And like that's also such a bad choice for the art teacher to be like, yeah, I'm just going to like willy nilly put this racist caricature up and just like trust that this 18 year old is going to show up and who has who has not been able to show up thus far in the class in other ways, at least to her to the art teacher's thing, even though she has been, you know, obviously present and everything. Right. And there's no it's not her art. That's what I'm like, she leans into the found art object of it all so hard that like, right, there is something interesting there and Enid is just learning about it, but she is not fully committed to it either. You know, it's like the thing she says in class sound good and and are grounded in like, that is what's interesting about it. But she doesn't even that hasn't hit her yet. She doesn't she doesn't actually passionate about that. She's like doing mimicry, you know, and so yeah, totally. And the fact that the art teacher can't see that it's interesting because Enid's pretty genuine throughout the movie. And this is a moment of her being a little disingenuous. And of course, that's what the art teacher likes and picks up on. Right. Yeah, totally. Good point. And that's what ultimately fails her, right, because she's not being true to herself and it fucks her. Yeah, totally. Yeah, that's yeah. I mean, this was the most again, the most resonant piece was just like remembering being a child who was like so earnestly just looking for for somebody to like acknowledge what your reality was like, or how confused you felt. And like everybody in this like this happens in this movie is like every adult in her life is so fucking blinded by their own baggage that they're like incapable of engaging her where she's at. They're like, come over to where I'm at. And she's like, I just want you to like validate my experience, please. And they're like, I will on my terms. Like that's kind of like every relationship she has with someone who's older, which is, you know, cooking her brain a little bit. So we're at the part where everything falls apart. Seymour loses the job. The girls have at least reconnected and sort of have these tender moments that we talked about. Seymour is now in therapy after his by his own words, his life has fallen apart. And Enid sort of has a very cute vintage suitcase that she takes down to the bus stop and gets on this bus that is supposed to not be real and then leaves town. Well, it's because the night before when she's like leaving, it's like the day that she doesn't know what she's going to do. She tells Seymour the truth. She tells Rebecca the truth. She's wandering around town. She doesn't go back home. She sees the bus arrive that is on that bus line that's supposedly no more bus and picks up Norman. And the guy who's been sitting there throughout the whole movie when she said, you're the only one I can rely on, he gets on the bus and he goes away. And when she goes up to the bus stop, it still says no service. So it's not like that changed. So we don't know this is like a mystery bus. And so then that's like the what happens the scene before this, which is integral, because then we see her dressed up with a suitcase ready to go to the bus stop. Right. And she takes this. And interestingly, I mean, I know that this has been interpreted by a lot as though she commits suicide, which both filmmakers say is not the case. But I do like this idea that she eventually gets her wish, but it is like rooted in some fantasy. And I do appreciate kind of whatever lifting that is doing. Like, why is this bus real? We know this bus is out of service. Why does the bus show up? I love that. Like we don't have any info on the bus. Yeah. And she has no reason to kill herself. Like, I don't I never resonated with me as suicide. I think that's like a weird, almost misogynist thing about like a young woman can't be. Well, Seymour was supposed to originally was supposed to kill himself in the script. Like Seymour was supposed to make sense that Seymour would kill himself, but it doesn't make sense that she would totally. And I think that there was probably a conflation. No, okay. She has she has options. She has a ton of options. I'm really glad nobody killed themselves. Yes. I'm with you. Yeah, she talks with Seymour on her drunken night with him about how don't you ever just want to run away where nobody knows you. And she's he's like, yeah, I probably did it at your age. And it is such like a classic, you know, underdogs kind of feeling of like, I just want to go where nobody knows me. And I want to get away from everybody. I had that fantasy all the time. My biggest dream was to move to Los Angeles and that I got to make that happen. So I've accomplished all of my teenage fantasies acting in LA. I'm doing it. Yeah, I kind of interpreted that last scene as, you know, it's a mystery bus, as you said. And it could be literally like she's just going to another place. But because we don't know that it's actually like a real bus, I kind of am interpreting it more so as like, she's been in this bubble, as you said, Lucie, like she's been in this bubble that she's been self protecting within and like the bubble of childhood, the bubble of like protecting herself. Like old culture. Yeah, yeah, like, like all of these things that have been serving her to this point have essentially destroyed all of her connections that she's held dear, even though, you know, some, some sweetness remains. And like her getting on this bus is really her accepting like, I need to move into the mystery of the future and I need to move into the mystery of like figuring out myself. I need to move into the mystery of figuring out how to be period, like how to be a person, how to be a new self, how to belong in the world, how to figure out how to not just be like a walking firecracker, you know, right? Well, because she's finally making a choice, right? The whole time we don't really see her fully leaning into her choices. And I think that that's what the bus represents, like that. Yeah, she's she's moving forward. And she's going and but also she's going her own way. She's going in this she's she's doing something that people said isn't possible. And I think that that's really important because this is a movie about navigating. It's a coming of age movie. And it's about how to navigate this horrible transition between childhood and adulthood. And adults, if you are interested in the arts at all or not having like an office job, right? She says that she'd kill herself if she had to have an office job. And she wouldn't be able to handle it. Like if you want to do anything that's not like that regular type of job, all the adults in your life are going to tell you it's not possible and like grow up and you need to get in and once you're playing and you know, people start asking you what you want to do when you turn 12, like it's crazy. And this I think that this represents Enid being like, you all told me that the life that I want to live is impossible and it is. And I am going in that direction. And so like she doesn't have it figured out like Rebecca maybe does. But like she is making a choice to move into adulthood. And not just like, yeah, like you said, Caroline be stagnant. She knows the bubbles ruptured. And she's at least making a choice to move forward, which the bus is moving for it's going over a bridge, right? Bridges are very symbolic. Like this is a transition that she's finally accepting and she's not fighting it anymore. Yeah, totally. It's also so stylized. I like to imagine that it's something that she's drawn. That's cute. Yeah, that's nice. I like that. The bus itself is like a 70s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even earlier. Yeah, absolutely. And like the way she's looks is like, I like to imagine that this is something that she's put in her sketchbook because it feels so stylized. Yeah, that's interesting to consider the era of that too, especially if we're considering it like a 50s bus because they're making so much fun of the 50s diner. Wow, Zillia. Well, in the racism of the 50s, right? Coons chicken. Right. That's also from the mid century. Totally. We haven't even mentioned my favorite gag in the movie that is aligned with the Cook's Chicken piece is when they go to see his favorite blues artist play. Oh my God. And then he's hitting blues hammer. Yeah. And then blues hammer comes out and the woman says, well, if you like authentic blues, you're going to love blues hammer. Oh my God. Yeah, totally. It's like the fucking singing about picking cotton. Yeah. It's so embarrassing and everyone starts dancing into him and spilling his drink. Yeah. My favorite line is when she's in his bedroom for the first time, admiring his like gorgeous collection of stuff. And she's like, Oh, kill for this stuff. And he goes, please go ahead and kill me. And I'm like, yeah, in this scene, I am both people so intensely that it is embarrassing. Like it hurts my body to relate to both of them so hard. Well, I'm going to ask this question that we close episodes with and Lucie, for your just to model it, both Carolyn and I will go first and then you will help us land it. Great. And the point there is no correct answer. The point is that it is a Rorschach test. So please interpret it however you want. Carolyn Kendrick. We know that Bob Bellaban plays Enid's father in the movie Ghost World. Who in your view is the daddy of the film? I have a fake answer and a real answer. My fake answer is Will Forte's abs. So good. Yes. Dude is shredded. What happened? He's so shredded. I can't believe it. I also did not fully clock that it was him. I had to, you told me at the beginning of the movie, you were like, Oh, also is it Will Forte or Will Forte? I don't know. Anyways, I always thought it was Will Forte. So I'll just say that. But like you told me that he was in this movie at the beginning and then we got to the end of the movie and I was like, when was Will Forte in it? And then it was, it was the guy with the nunchucks the entire time. And I was like, wow, that's insane. He looks, I've never seen anybody that shredded in my entire life. It's shocking. Almost disgusting, actually. But like in the kind of way where you're like, I'm impressed by how disgusted I am. And then maybe disgust is too hard for it. That's too hard for it. I'm just, I'm just, it's just wild. Okay. You're just working through it. And then my real answer is Norman at the bus stop. Because he's the only person who is, he knows what he wants and he's waiting for it. I love that. That's a great, great response. I love, I love Norman a whole lot. There's a way that he delivers all of his lines that I'm just like, Oh, this, this man. I'm going to say Brad Renfrow RIP, Miss seeing Brad Renfrow and things. I love Brad Renfrow and bully, which I feel like might be an unpopular opinion, but I just love his, just like, you just see that he's experiencing life real hard in his face all the time. And I really, there's like a real beauty there. And I had forgotten he was in this and I was so delighted to see him and to spend time with him again. Love Brad Renfrow. Luce, who is the daddy of ghost world? Who is the daddy of ghost world? Everyone is so incompetent in this film. It's really, it's so hard to say. You know what, I think I would lean towards Brad Renfrow because he is, he's really just trying to like get by and he's trying to keep his girls in line and they can't be, but they cannot be. But because you already said that I'm going to go ahead and say the owner of the Sidewinder is really trying to keep shit together. He is working hard. He owns his own business. Oh my God. He's trying so hard. He's trying to get, he's trying to sell the six gun strawberry ice cream. He's this great line of like, he's trying to get this woman to buy hair relaxer. You say you want your hair relaxed. You either are going to sell it a lullaby or you're going to use this product. He is trying to constantly like just get people in and out. He can't keep Doug out. Doug, who spends more time at the Sidewinder than Josh. Like I think that the owner of the Sidewinder is the real daddy. And because he's surrounded by incompetent morons, he just is the heel. He's the heel and he cannot win in this movie of idiots. I love it. I love it. It's a perfect answer. Luce, where can people find you in your work, etc? Yes. Well, you can always find me at videotech in Highland Park and then I'm online at LTB comedy. I put everything I'm doing up there. You can also follow my podcast. It's always Halloween on Instagram and everywhere you get podcasts. It's a year around Halloween history and storytelling podcast, research based. And we also have call in and emails in where our community shares interesting bits of history and their own experiences and urban legends. It's kind of like a fun patchwork quilt of stories from around the globe, user submitted. And so you can follow me there and come to my show, Video Visions, last Thursday of the month at Videotech or every quarter at the Lyric Hyperion. And if you're a comedian and you want to be a part of that show, let me know. Thank you so much for having me. I love Ghost World. It was so fun to talk to you about it, Alex, of my generation, old fan. And then Carolyn, so fun to hear your perspective as someone having just seen it. So this is such a varied and interesting conversation and I really enjoyed being a part of it. Yeah, totally. Well, thank you so much. Carolyn, anything that you want people to find on the internet? Yeah, you can follow me at Carolyn B Kendrick on social media. And then I also have a project called Don't Call Me, Darling. You can make a tax deductible donation if you care about women in music history. And there will be a podcast coming out in the spring called Don't Call Me, Darling. Check it out. Very cool. Love links to all of the above in the show notes. Thank you all so much. Thank you. Thank you guys. All right, that's it for this week's episode of You Are Good at Feeling Podcasts about movies. Thanks so much to Luce Tomlin Brenner. Thanks to Carolyn Kendrick for guest hosting, of course. You can find the link to Don't Call Me, Darling in the show notes. Thanks to Miranda Zickler for reducing and editing this episode. Thanks to y'all for being here. Thanks for supporting us on Patreon and Apple Podcast subscriptions where you get the extended cuts and the bonus episodes. However, you end up participating in the world in order to stave off that dread. Do not forget that you, my friend, are good. I'm so glad that you're here. I appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for doing this with us.