Is that on speaker? Yeah. Hey! Hey, Nate Hedgie! How are you? I'm good. I'm in the car with Taylor. He's driving. Hey! Back in December of 2023, producer Felix Poon called me on his way to upstate New York. I've been getting flashes of nervousness like over the past couple of weeks. And then a flash of excitement last night. I remember me wishing that we don't see any deer this weekend. I guess that means I've had that feeling before. I've had that feeling. At the time, Felix was 41. He had never killed an animal, never shot a gun. But here he was, headed upstate to go on his first ever hunting trip. But picking up hunting isn't like picking up jogging. It is a commitment. There's gear, licenses, safety courses. And there's a culture to hunting. 97% of people who hunt in America are white. That's according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. And that can be enough for Felix or really any person of color to see hunting and think, eh, no thanks. But this hunting trip that Felix was going on, it was put together by a non-profit called Hunters of Color to teach people of color who were new to hunting how to hunt. And it was no joke. Three full days in the Catskill Mountains, crammed into an Airbnb with dozens of strangers. Yeah, I kind of feel like I'm dropping you off at the weirdest summer camp ever. Well, guys drive safe. In that case, Felix, have fun, uh, have fun hunting. Yeah. Uh, is it fun? I don't know. Am I going to have fun? This is Outside In, a show where curiosity and the natural world collide. And today we are looking back at one of our favorite episodes from the past couple of years to see whether a weekend in the Catskills can convert a longtime city dweller. Why are you just holding that duck by its head? How do you feel? I'm like a baller. Ha ha ha ha. Into a dedicated deer hunter. Alright, who's going to bite into the heart when they get their first deer? They're all gone. That's coming up after a break. Just like new, British gas taking care of things and looking after you. T-Sensees apply excess options available per repair. This is Outside In, a show where curiosity and the natural world collide. I'm Felix Poon. 11309. It's supposed to be a big house, so I think you're, this looks like it. Like right here. So we roll up to the Airbnb and there's a bunch of guys on the back porch. They're all white dudes with big beards wearing camo and drinking beer. And we're in the middle of nowhere. Like it seems like we're in the right place, but it's not what I was expecting for a group called the Hunters of Color. Hello, hi. Hi, Felix. Yes, I'm Felix. Nice to meet you Brandon. Nice to meet you Brandon. Turns out the people of color are inside the house. There's Brandon Dale. He's the New York ambassador for the Hunters of Color organization. He's black from Louisiana and he's the head honcho for the weekend. So we'll figure it out. So should I just find a place and claim it? Basically is what you're saying? There are no beds to claim left, I suppose, but like find a space maybe that you like. Brandon seems like the kind of guy who's comfortable talking to anybody. He also talks like he's on a podcast that's set at like 1.5 speed. Okay. It's kind of free for all. Great. Yeah, we'll figure it all out. Yeah, thanks Brandon. Thanks for coming. Yeah. So the Airbnb is listed as eight bedrooms, but it's not like you can count them because this is a labyrinth of hallways and stairs. And I go off trying to look for a place to set up my air mattress. And then I head outside. Hey, hey, hey. I get the little one. I'm not lucky, really. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah! Okay, thank you Tim. Hello. Alright, so hello everyone. Welcome. Really, really pumped to meet everyone. So there's about 30 of us here now and we're outside on the back porch where there's a covered hot tub and laid across the top of it are about a dozen crossbows. Well, seriously, thank you all so much. Yeah, I really can't wait to hear more about all of you individually. And yeah, seriously, thanks for trusting us. I think that like there's a lot of trust involved and showing up to a random house in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, with strangers. Yeah, with strangers and lots and lots of... But I think that like, you know, that is like the thing we're trying to do is recreate the space where people can feel that trust and sort of feel that community and like, you know, grow in that hunting journey and it takes a family. With that, I think we'll jump right into it. And so maybe if you're interested in getting right on the crossbows... Oh yeah, go ahead. Oh yeah, go ahead. I can take him over there. Oh, sweet. Yeah, that'd be great. Go with Tim. Maybe we get three or four and then I... Before I got my hunting license, I had to take an online hunter safety course that was like six or seven hours total. It was with one of those like really friendly sounding corporate voices that reads out the text. I had videos of hunters, mostly white guys shooting guns, killing deer and ducks. It was the sort of thing you might see in an online like cyber security training video for work, except we weren't learning about fishing scans. We were learning about muzzle loaders. I'm pulling the trigger, fires the rifle. But watching videos about firearms is one thing. Actually holding and shooting one, that's a whole another thing. So this is a bolt. You can see it just looks like a short arrow. It's got this very, very sharp point on the front. The group is made up of mentors and mentees. Most of the bearded guys I saw on the porch when I first got here, they're mentors. Anytime you're using a weapon, you basically want to always kind of regard it as though it's loaded at all times. Don't point it at anybody or anything, again, that you don't want to shoot. So always try to just kind of... After the safety talk, we take turns shooting at these Styrofoam boxes the size of milk crates. One of the mentees steps up to the line and takes aim. Range is hot. Behind the crossbow is Dorothy Wren. Dorothy's Asian from New York City. And she's always got a pretty serious look on her face. But that changes when you talk to her. What was that like for you, by the way? It felt really good. Yeah? I was just thinking it's going to be very different shooting... An animal. An animal. And not a Styrofoam box. But yeah, that was cool. Yeah, it felt really nice. You know what I mean? There's this... Rabbit? Rabbit, like, there's so many different avenues, man. There's the big guys, there's the elf, you know? Okay, so dinner is ready. I think we're just going to form a line and have everybody grab. The sun sets and we're all gathered in the living room to eat a dinner of venison ragu pasta. The living room is huge with big lofted ceilings and it can't seem to make up its mind if it's a rustic log cabin or if it's a venue for a bachelorette party. There's even a couple of leftover balloon letters still taped to an accent wall. Here! Okay, have everyone had a great dinner? We all go around the circle and introduce ourselves, almost like a support group. I'm so excited to be here and I'm so nervous for tomorrow, but I'm very, very excited. Anyway, my name is Stephanie. There's about an even number of men and women among the mentees. Most are in their 20s and 30s, some are older, and some have hunted a few times before at other events. And so I'm glad to be here. My family says that I'm not an animal lover, you know? But I'm really enjoying it and really glad to be here. Good to meet everybody. And Eric, this is your first year on a beautiful buffet. You should ask him to see the picture. Oh, wow. Lucky shot. Lucky shot. Right. Everyone's reasons for learning how to hunt are different. I completely learned all about how hunters are true environmentalists. And I met all these people of color from all over the US. I was like, wait, POC, traveling with firearms? You did what? Yeah, you know, right? Maybe a little bit before COVID, nobody's asking me, do I want to go half for the deer? Now that's telling me, oh no, we keeping it in me for our family now, you know, just to make ends meet. And one guy said, if you want it so bad, you better get off there and get your arm. I was like, okay, all right, that's what I'm gonna have to do then. If I want to eat it, then that's what brought me here. There's a total of 14 mentees and 20 something mentors. One of them is Brant. I got into hunting because I was really into animals. I always wanted to study animals and history. I studied history of conservation, history of taxigermy, and studying all that through the lens of hunting. Brant started hunting as an adult, which makes him an outlier among the mentors because most of them learned as teenagers with their dads and uncles. Studies and I was like, well, I guess like maybe I'll start hunting. And that was six or seven years ago now. Colleen is the only mentor who's a woman. Only about 10% of hunters in the US are women. That's a good question. Why do I hunt? Why do I drag myself out of my nice warm bed at three o'clock in the morning to go sit in a tree in the dark? Well, I love watching the woods wake up. I love the smell of sun-warmed pine needles. I love hearing the ch-ch-ch. Is that a deer? No, it's a squirrel. And I love the excitement and the pounding of my heart. Here it comes. Oh, it's close enough. Can I shoot this? Am I going to shoot at this? What Colleen's describing is exactly what I imagine hunting will be. The calm of nature buried under nervous anticipation of a kill. And then the visceral connection to the death of the animal you're going to eat. And I love following the blood trail to the deer. And I love putting my hands on that deer that gave me its life so I can eat. This is why I'm here. This is what I want to experience. I just don't know how I'm going to feel when the moment comes. So that's kind of, you know, what I was... You know, I'm really contemplating some of the stuff I was saying before, like, how do you respectfully take a life and sustain your own? I think that's a really interesting question. So I'm, like, glad to be here with everyone to, like, see how people manage that and how they think about that for themselves. So I'm really glad to be here. And so I just wanted to give a huge round of applause to everyone for opening up, being honest, being vulnerable, and hopefully killing some deer this weekend. Alright, it's Friday night, 11.45 pm, just lying down to go to bed. And we have to be up in a little over four hours, so we're not going to get up to sleep, and I'm already exhausted from the day. So yeah, we'll see if I see any deer tomorrow morning, and if I can get any shots off. Parkers are calling it out in... Dashboard Confessions! My boss asked for results, so I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had. Impressions. Is your dog scratching, itching or rubbing? When they're suffering from an itchy skin condition, finding an at-home remedy that brings relief can seem impossible. That's where your vet comes in. They're the only one who can diagnose the cause and offer effective relief to bring your itchy dog a source of comfort. See your vet to find a source of comfort for your itchy dog. Learn more at itchydogcare.co.uk This is Outside In, I'm Felix Poon, and I'm back with the story of my first ever attempt at hunting, and the Catskills of New York with the mentorship group Hunters of Color. I think it might just be us. Jack, we're gonna have to do like a 12 point turn to get out of here if you want to wait for like two seconds for us to catch up. It's 5 a.m. in the morning, we get into a bunch of trucks and head off to hunt. The spot we're going to is 45 minutes away. And right away, we're already seeing deer everywhere. Yep, where there's one. Sometimes three. One's across the road. See they do exist. They're everywhere. At least he can't see it in deer. A guy named Jeff is driving the truck, and in the front passenger seat is Brant, my mentor. He's the one who said he got into hunting because he loves animals. I'm sitting in the back. Um, so I feel like this might be a little awkward, but what are the options for taking a dump if I need to? Use the woods. Here I am, this public radio reporter, and I'm either about to shit my pants like a little kid, or bar fall over the back seat. It's like writing, you were 81. I wonder if, uh, I'm just making a request for my motion sickness. If it's possible to drive a little slower and smoother. Ah, I'm trying. Sorry. I don't remember what memories we've been. I don't think God will take us down here and save. Some heathens from the flatlands to the lonely bitch and mull. I'm pretty relieved when we finally pull up to the edge of the woods. Thank God I've held it together. Oh, boy. Ugh. This place is dark, pitch black if it wasn't for our headlamps. All the Mentor-Mentee pairs fan out into the woods looking for their blinds, which are these little tents that the organizers came out a couple weeks ago and set up. Hello. Hi, are you recording? I got a laugh mic on right now. As a freelance producer, we hired for the day joins me and Brant so that I don't have to hold onto a mic and a crossbow at the same time. We put on our headlamps and grab a few small foldable chairs. Then we make our way into the woods to find our blind. We just have to follow the coordinates to find it. So I'm trying to follow the compass. Brant is using an app on his phone to try to navigate. We're off to a bad start. I took us to the wrong side of the ravine, so that's my plan. We're just gonna cross to the other side. I'll stay here and hold your stuff if you want to get across first. Ideally, we want to be in the blind before it gets light out, and now it's getting light out. Let's see. Let's just turn this around. I'll see now it lets us to cross the small ravine again. After we cross the ravine again, we finally see it. Except we're on the wrong side of the ravine. The blind is all camo colors, just a little bit bigger than a porto potty. Three of us set up our foldable chairs inside. Brant pulls a zipper to open a small window to the outside that I'll be shooting through, hopefully. Then I arm my bow. This will keep your safety on. And we wait. So, how likely do you think it is we'll see, dear? You truly, truly, truly never know, so they really appear out of nowhere. As much as you can understand, dear biology and dear movement, they really move through the forests like ghosts, and all of a sudden, they'll just be right there. And it's the most shocking thing. So, you really never know. My gut has settled down. I had, this may be TMI, but I had two issues going on. The motion sickness, and then I was like, I think I need to poop. Managing airbms in the woods is a legit thing. Like, I am normally like clockwork, but it's just too early. So, it's like, I can't be messing around with that. I think I made a mistake too this morning. I was like, I think I'll drink some coffee. They'll stimulate me. But then it didn't come in. Anyways, sometimes it's too early. It got coffee in my system. It's pretty quiet. It's like a ghost, you know, like it doesn't come, and then all of a sudden it comes, and it's like, really, it's invigorating and intense. Yeah, I'm talking about the ends. I've always imagined hunting from the perspective of a stalker, slowly stepping through the woods, crouched low like a tiger or a wolf, and then bam, kneeling over the kill, feeling a bittersweet sense of gratitude. This, though, is not that kind of hunting. It's more like those nature documentaries you see of trapdoor spiders or sea creatures that hide until the right time to ambush their prey, and the stillness feels like it has a static charge in the air. I turn my head at the slightest ch-ch-ch of the sound of leaves. It was just a squirrel. It always is. This is not what I thought hunting would be like. Hunting is slow. There's a lot of waiting around, doing nothing. Trying to stay in the present is like meditating with a crossbow in your hand. To pass the time, I pepper Brantz with questions about deer behavior, wildlife conservation, the ethics of trophy hunting, and Brantz's first kill. The first deer I ever shot is a trophy to me. He was just a scraggly button buck with a bunch of warts by his eyes. He was ugly as hell. But I will never forget him ever. Was that your first animal that you killed? Yeah, that was my first big game animal. Aside from fishing and stuff like that. What was that like for you? Oh man, I really thought that I was just gonna be bawling my eyes out, crying like a baby. I was very much prepared for that. But in the moment you become so laser focused, there was absolutely nothing else that I was thinking about. And I did give myself a few excuses not to take the shot. I said, oh, you know, I don't really like the angle where he's standing or maybe that branch is in the way. And then he just kept getting closer and closer and the angle kept getting better and better. And I said, okay, this is the opportunity. It is perfect. At that point, I wasn't thinking too much. I just knew that that was the right moment. And I squeezed the trigger. And then following the blood trail and then seeing him there in the grass. I mean, I was mostly in shock. And then it is sort of a bizarre feeling when you like kneel down and you get close to him and you put your hands on him. You know, you feel a soft body and still warm and he was young. And that was the tag that I had for him. So yeah, I definitely felt bad for him. You know, you sit there and you're like, sorry little guy. He felt bad, but he mostly felt proud and something deeper. You can't believe you're so connected to every human who's ever done it before. You know, we're here with hunters of color. And because we're so used to thinking of hunters as, you know, old white guys, you kind of forget that hunting is integral to absolutely every person on planet Earth. No matter where they came from, what background they have, like that's how we became us. We were feeding ourselves through hunting and foraging. Next it's Red Flare and his new band. Dropping hits every week. Find the new slots. We don't see anything in the morning, so we go back to the Airbnb for lunch and come back to try again in the afternoon. Rantzazzy is always more anxious hunting at the end of the day because the clock is ticking to sundown. Hunting essentially becomes illegal after dark, so it's a hard stop. We're not talking as much because we're just quietly waiting. And waiting. And waiting. I feel like I actually slept. What was that? What's that? What's that? Branches. Jesus Christ. Branches, like they just fall off. Hey, but we know that they make a sound. We were here to hear it. Yes. Until dusk is just minutes away and I think, how wild would it be if this was the moment a deer slowly crept into view? You can almost hear us trying to manifest a deer the way you stare at a red light trying to will it to be green. Now is the time they are moving. So, I mean, that's what happens often is you're just sitting here, nothing happens all day. And then it's really in like the last four minutes of legal light that a big group of deer starts moving through and you're like, ha ha ha. It all comes down to this. And then the sun sets. Legal light is over. No deer today. In fact, I wouldn't see a single deer for the whole weekend. Not in the woods anyway. Thank you. We'll spread that tarp out because it's clean. Can we talk about that's where it got shot? Yes. Okay. And then as I take the skin off, we'll be able to see even better. Yeah. Back at the Airbnb on the back porch, one of the mentors, Brian, he's about to give a butchering demo. The porch is covered with tarp and there's a dead deer lying on its side. Brian is a tank of a guy, probably six foot four, bald, long white beard. To be clear, nobody else saw a deer today either. This one was brought in for demonstration purposes. And just a warning, I'll be playing sounds of skinning and butchering a deer. If you don't want to hear this, you can skip forward one minute and 15 seconds. So I'm going to start with a little bit of a demo. This is just a normal meat saw. You can do it without a saw. I came here because I wanted to be more connected with the food I eat, but this is the closest I'm going to get this weekend. About a dozen of us, mostly mentees, gather around and lean in to get a good look. Now this was a doe. You can tell it's a little bit of a deer. Now this was a doe. You can tell. So here's what would be the other. If it was old enough, there might be some milk in here. And you want to avoid that because milk will taint the meat. As a matter of fact. Is that white stuff to milk? That's just the whole mammary gland. I don't think there's any. She seems a little young. I find this detail fascinating and sad at the same time. There goes the head. You just break it. I'm going to step on it. I'm going to get the carol practice. I want to be a adjustment here. I feel so much better now. I'm going to step on it. At the end of the weekend, Brandon, the lead organizer, pulls up a chair to talk to me. I'm trying to figure something out with him. If you don't see deer in the woods, did you really go hunting? I think someone has been hunting for over 20 years now. Most times I don't see deer. So this is actually a pretty common experience. And no one was here just because they wanted to kill a deer. That wasn't the end goal. I mean, it kind of was the goal. Of course that was the goal, but it wasn't the end all be all. It was part of the process. I think really everyone appreciated that process. Animals are incredible. They rule in this world and we too are becoming part of that natural system when we hunt, which I really appreciate because I think it puts people in perspective. As you said, you've hiked before. You've moved through nature, but moving through something and observing it versus being part of it are pretty distinct. So I really appreciate it. I think people got that experience. And for those who did see deer, it's like they're on cloud nine. As a producer, I feel pretty disappointed. Like, how am I going to leave this place without tape of even seeing a deer? But I do think the other mentees were pretty psyched about everything this weekend. And maybe that's the point. The weekend has been great. Like, I think the big piece of this is really like establishing community with people who can continue their hunting journey. And I think that that has been 100% done, which has been really great and always a highlight in my book. Before we all leave and go our separate ways, we gather one more time in the living room, the one with the big letter balloon still clinging to the wall. This is cell phone tape of our closing circle, so the audio quality isn't great. Um, okay, so I'll start with my horn because that's easy. I was just cold, you know, I thought I was prepared. We're doing an exercise that you might do at the end of a group retreat. It's called Rose Bud Thorn. Um, my rose... The rose is a highlight you want to share. The thorn is a challenge, and the bud is something you're looking forward to. And it's surprisingly emotional. Oh, okay. Hunters do cry. I never cry. There's lots of genuine gratitude going around for the program itself and for each other. We're all hunting, and I got to shoot a shotgun, and it was one of those things... This is Dorothy. She's the one I talked to at the shooting range who wondered what it'd be like to shoot animals instead of boxes. This whole weekend, Dorothy was really active. Like, she jumped at the chance to gut a duck. She was one of the few mentees who stuck around after the butchering demo to finish carving the rest of it. Her mentor was Brian, the guy who did the demo, aka the chiropractor. He's the kind of guy who looks really intimidating because he just towers above you. One of those things that she's like, I got to go on a walk with my mentor, who is my rose. She said he was her rose. Um... I was gonna cry. I just felt like all weekend, he really listened and responded to all of the ramblings, all of the questions. We're gonna grab tea in the city and talk weird plant shit after it. I just can't imagine having opportunities like this. It's not even a dream because I never thought that I would be having an experience like this. And then it's my turn. Right, so I think the roses were kind of like all those learnings. You know that felt like a private lesson delivered in ASMR in the blind, you know? On top of Rosebud Thorn, we're also doing watering cans, which is when you share an appreciation of someone else in the group. And I don't expect this. And then watering can, you know, I guess this relates to my rose, but like I learned a lot, I think, from Brent. And logistically, I just really wanted Brandon to... But I cry too. I don't expect it because I'm like, what is there to cry about? In fact, I've been mispronouncing Brent's name the whole time, calling him Brent, and he's never corrected me. How can I be crying for this man when I can't even get his name right? When I tell people about my experience, the number one thing they want to know is, will I go hunting again? I like the idea of hunting as a way of connecting to my distant ancestors who hunted, as a way of connecting to the natural world. I've felt that connection from foraging in the woods when I've stumbled on a flush of my take mushrooms, or picked wild pawpaws from the forest floor. But if I hunt again, it's not going to be because my ancestors pushed me to pick up a gun and go out into the woods. It'll be because of the people I meet at places like this. Because I don't have family that hunts. None of my friends in Boston are going crossbow hunting on the weekends. So, I'll have to make friends with hunters and build my own community. This crew here, we've already got a WhatsApp chat, people are posting memes, planning their next hunting trips, posting pictures of venison steaks. And I gotta say, it all looks pretty good. The End We first aired this story back in early 2024, and since then, Felix has almost made plans to go hunting again, but he hasn't actually gotten around to it yet, maybe next year. This episode was reported, produced, and mixed by Felix Poon. It was edited by Taylor Quimby with help from Rebecca Levoix, director of podcasts. I'm your host, Nate Hedgie. Our team also includes Justine Paradis and Marina Hanky. Special thanks to our freelance producer for this episode, Nina Pautuck, and to the mentors, mentees, and everyone else who was part of my first hunting experience. Music in this episode was by Bluedot Sessions, Hannah Lindgren, and Walt Adams. Outside In is a production of NHPR. Media by earth.org. It's hosted by Dave Chapman and me, Linley Dixon. Each week we feature eye-opening interviews with farmers, scientists, authors, and journalists to uncover the forces reshaping the food system from why corporate lobbying is redefining what organic means to how organic farmers are fighting back. So don't miss it. Follow and listen to the Real Organic podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Have you ever wondered what businesses are doing and should be doing to tackle climate change? Then check out the award-winning and chart-topping podcast, Climate Rising, produced by Harvard Business School and hosted by me, Professor Mike Toffle. Recently named one of the best environmental podcasts by earth.org, Climate Rising shares a behind-the-scenes look at how some of the world's top entrepreneurs and business leaders are addressing climate change from climate storytelling and marketing to AI or generative agriculture and beyond. Don't miss out. Follow and listen to Climate Rising wherever you get your podcasts.
