252. La historia de los mapas

It's a summer summer in Mar-a-Lago, Florida, in 2021. The journalists Susan Glasser and Peter Baker are disposed to interview Donald Trump and during their interview they ask for one of the biggest excentricities of his first candidate. Why he suggested to go to Finlandia? The answer is Trump's no longer than the most elocuente. I love the maps. And he always said, look at the size of this. It's huge and should be part of the United States. surely Trump was aware of that that giant island, almost the size of Africa in the paper, was actually 14 times smaller than the African continent. During centuries, the map has served to explain the world in which we live. However, the example of Trump shows that the map is not only represented the reality, but also built the map. So today, in No is the Fin del Mundo, we talk about how the map are made. No es el fin del mundo, el podcast semanal del orden mundial. Hoy estamos hablando de mapas en un sitio que tiene mucha historia relacionada con ellos. Es muy bonito, ahora os contaremos más. Están conmigo, Eduardo Saldaña, ¿qué tal Eduardo? Pues muy bien, muy contento de venir aquí a Cádiz. Es una tierra que me encanta, así que muy feliz, muy contento, la verdad. Pues nada, y David Gómez, ¿qué tal David? I'm very happy to be here, it was my first time in Cádiz It's true, of the two, because you don't have a chance I've been a chance to be here It's true that the time has not been a lot of these days Well, on the topic of this, we have been a lot of people who have suffered the temporary season this last week in Cádiz But well, with the pleasure of being here, with all this people and talking a little bit about a topic that we like, which are the map Yes, yes, it's Cádiz, which is in the Highlands of Scotia Well, it's something unusual But well, it's also a good thing Because we're here in San Fernando A little bit in the south of Cádiz In the Navantia Training Center Basically And we're going to talk Precisely Of the map That is also a live episode There's a lot of public So, that's what we're going to do For coming and to come Mucho gente We've found out In the puerta We've been talking about Manuel It's the security That's what we've heard We've heard of him We've heard of him We've heard of him We've heard of him We've heard of him We've heard of him Manuel, when we listen to you. He mentioned the episode of the Oro, or that it was not a song. It's a song of Fiel, because it's been released a little bit ago. Today you don't forget of Nerea in Bilbao, but well. We have a series of directs this month. This is not what it will be. But the next week we will go to Santiago, we will go to the peninsula from extreme to extreme. But once we have the presentations, we will go to the episode, with the topic that we have today. Why we talk today about mapas, David? Well, in first place, it's a topic that we have very close in the world. the world. If something we have characterized in these years, it's precisely for the maps, and more now, after having published our Atlas, the Fuerzas that Move the World, which we presented yesterday in Cádiz. Thank you very much for the people who have been here. There is one here that has been... They are making a double check. It's true, those are the fields there. The guardia pretoriana. The guardia pretoriana, effectively. Siendo the maps a part so important in NEOM, we had to dedicate a chapter in this podcast and for this we have also talked with the indispensable collaboration of our team of Carto, of Jose, of Álvaro, of Celia, to whom we send a huge hug from here, because they have been also indispensable in this guide. Now, why are so relevant the maps, beyond the personal question that we concern ourselves? First, because they are in all parts. We have maps of any kind, in any place. And secondly, because they have an exceptional quality, and it is that they have reality what they represent. They even make visible the invisible, as we saw before. Also, as they support in a scientific base, they usually consider objectively infallible in many cases. However, as you mentioned in your introduction, the maps are not only represent the reality, but also the constructs. Let's say, for example, in the case of China. The official map of the popular China is the official map of the Republic of China. They include Taiwan within its national borders, that line of nine points also. And this allows us to naturalize and legitimize its territorial recommendations at the international level. And also here, with this that is saying David, this is not only shows what important is that that are the maps per se, to guide us a little bit in the world, but that in the end, they also define our vision of the world. You are able to project a space that control you through that representation. No is a casual thing that we have seen, and then we will see how, how we have been going to be varied throughout the history, there are things curious because maybe there is a period in which it is very geological and then you see the religion and religion passes to have a greater presence in the map. So this type of things show a lot of evolution, that international reality of every moment and it's curious. And that's the main aspect of this chapter, how they have done the map and what implications have had all these representations cartographic in our conception of the world and in every culture, because we'll see how it looks like the European world or how it looks like the Arab world, In the end, the maps tell us a lot about the world in which we live, the way we can imagine it, and our relationship with the environment, from the sea, that we saw before, the Earth, or the space. So, and this is a tradition, not the end of the world. What are we going to talk about in this episode? It is that, Mita. Yes, that was what we have asked. Well, it is so. We are going to go and we are going to go and we are going to go and we are going to go and we are going to go. In first place, we are going to enter the concept of the map. It's a very interesting book of geography, that there are people who are young here who will be quite close. We will explain what is a map, what elements have to be in mind when we make a map. Then we will analyze what has been the history of these maps, how they have been done throughout the time, how they have reflected that history. And finally, we will reflect a little bit about the future of the maps. It is to say, the importance that they have and how the changes internationally and technological are also reflected in the entire cartography. Yes, even here appears even the artificial intelligence. That is very, very, that ayer asked about the... This episode, of course, is a podcast talking about maps, which is obviously visual, in case of the arrow of the ball, no, there are maps. Eduardo has a pass. Here it is. It is like the only one, basically. It can be passed from everything. Of course, it's all. And then, who is watching us in direct, you're going to be able to... It's the maldiction. You're going to be able to see the maps that we're going to comment on the guion. I don't know if Eduardo can do it. I'm going to be able to do it. I've never done anything. I've left the passable in the table. But in any case, for those who listen to us later, in Spotify, YouTube, where you are, that we can also project there so that we can follow a little the chat and the conversation. They come to rescue for the map. But while we're in the rescue, you promised, and that you have to do, that is to explain basically what is a map. So, well, this is David. I'm going to take a picture. Of course, we're going to do a couple of things at the same time. So, we're going to explain with that of fourth grade, what is a map, basically. When Sadoo says technical, with two aspects of technical... When you take the engineering, Eduardo... Claro, me quito la chaqueta. Mientras se convalida en ingeniería, Eduardo, pues explicamos que es un mapa. Ya lo está arreglando Alicia, que es la técnica de aquí, y yo estoy aquí con un pasador. La magia del podcast. No pasa nada. Esto funciona así. Bueno, vamos con la pregunta que nos ocupa, que es un mapa. Y para ello, qué mejor que acudir a la Real Academia Española, que dice que un mapa es, y abro comillas, una representación geográfica de la Tierra o parte de ella en una superficie plana. Esta definición, que a priori parece tan simple, sintetiza el problema básico de la cartografía, which is how to represent a surface surface, which is curved, in a plane. Now we'll see how to do it. But this definition, by itself, is incomplete. What happens with the maps of utopics or imaginary? In the E.M.E.M. we have published maps of the Tierra Media, of the Tronos, or those that include, as we see, elements reales with fictitious elements. What happens also with the maps that we draw in our mind to situate in the space? or, do you only cartograph the earth and not the moon? We have maps of the moon and of Mars. That is. All these questions show up to what point is complex to define the term map. In fact, a researcher called John Andrews, he tried to try it in 1996. This man was asked to analyze the definition of the word map in the journals, the enciclopedias and the books from the beginning of the 17th century to 1996. It's a good period of time. Yes, yes. How many definitions found? A ver. Can I say a number, more or less? 200. Not a matter, eh? Yes, or 50, no lo I know. But, so many years, eh? Gana, Edu. 321. Well, the price is just. Yes, yes. So, elaboring a single definition of map is practically impossible. What is clear is that it is much more than a representation geográfica of the Earth in a plane surface. In fact, as we will see more later, the same notion of map has varied throughout the time. No has nothing to do with the modern maps, which look for the correct representation geográfica of the surface, with the medieval maps, which prioritizes the religious symbolism. Then we will see that it is very interesting. In definitiva, the maps have multiple definitions. They are photographs geográficas of the Earth, of course, but also are forms of project ideas and concepciones of the world, artistic expressions, instruments of power and propaganda. So, for that to understand that it's a map, Fer, and not to annoy us much, we need to focus on the elements that define a map. Yes, because we see that this of project or to pass from a 3D, that is to say, a 2D object, to a 2D, is a move. So, for a sum of it, we don't know. We don't know how we're técnicos, but then we have to apply it. It's a meloon. We know how we know how we're going to play it because we have a guion that we don't know. And we see a lot of people working on it, you know. We don't know how we're going to play it. Yes, of course, we are not going to put technicals with programs or with the process that the team of carto, first because we don't know, and second because I think it would be quite tedious. Right, between that is a move and that is a witchery, we have to take care of it. No, it's a point of understanding. So, what's the point of understanding a map? Well, a lot of the map, and that also we do with the team of cartography when we think about it, we have to take in mind different elements. There is one main thing, and it is that a map has to have a motive. It is to say, you have to represent a lot of people, you have to say what information... Yes, what is it? What information we want to transmit, what public we are going to be able to direct, what is the finality of this map. All these questions what they do is determine the type of map that we need. Because there are different types of maps in function of their content. The physical, the political, the demographic, we insist on it much. mapas digitales más interactivos, mapas problematizados que es algo que en el orden mundial hacemos mucho lo de meter en plan factores dinámicas, cosas que son más complejas mapas conceptuales todo esto al final determina un poco la tipología del mapa que vas a utilizar después debemos decidir qué elementos incluimos en un mapa y de qué manera distribuimos esos elementos visualmente y cuando hablo visualmente va desde el tipo de icono al tipo de color and the location, the size or space that they occupy within that map. It's to say, we select the information that will appear in the map. And from there, we go with the elements of the map, one of the most important, and here we start with the passers, is the projection cartographic. This, the team of our cartography is very freaky. Who has our Atlas, there is a chapter only dedicated to the beginning. I think it's the most important element. Yes, yes, yes. Why? Because depending on the projection that we use in the paper, our perception of the globe will be different. For example, you talked about Donald Trump at the beginning with Groenlandia. That's a theory that I buy. Yes, yes. Donald Trump has a lot of perception of that Groenlandia is bigger than the reality. In general, for the people that we have here, the projections are going to be grouped in three large categories. The cylindrical, the cónic and the acimutal. In fact, we are going to project it in the video. And here we have the cylindrical projection. This is the cylindrical. All the projections are going to be passed. It's true that we have another thing, but we will explain it. In the cylindrical is like if you involve all the Earth in a cylinder that is around the equator. Then we have the cunnical. Here we have the cunnical. That is basically, we have a cone of... This is not, this is the previous one. It's like the collar that you put to the dogs and the dogs for that. Exactly. For that, basically. It's a bit more so. You put it in the north of the Polo. You can put it in any place in the map. It's true that it's a bit more strange, represented in a paper, because it's not all the space. We're accustomed to the progestions of the cilindric. So that's a bit more like the maps. And then we have the CIMUTAL, which is the one that we had in the paper and in the library of the World of Mundial. That what they do is maintain the full plane while it's on the top of the sphere. This is also the of the Naciones Unidas. That's what I was going to say. That's what I was going to say. That's what I was going to say. To not discriminating a ningún país. Trump, with the Congress of the Paz, used a similar thing with the United States in the center. I was going to say, what respect to the fact that you have shown with the United States in the center. Yes, yes, yes. I used that. Yes. Well, at the end, it's what it has with the similar thing. You take a point of the superfixion terrestrial and you get it all. Well, then, let's say we're doing a map and we've chosen one of these three types of projections. but what is it? What happens? How do we continue to do a map? Once we have projected the Earth in our paper, those projections can be modified and adjusted in terms of what we are interested in representing. Because there is a thing that is fundamental, the main idea of the episode. The perfect map is not there. All projection means sacrifices and distorsions. And in terms of what you want to represent, what you are interested, we are looking for the right. adequate. It's a bit the meme that we have been engaing, basically. Yes, no vas a tener a representat... It's impossible. The globo terráqueo maybe would be the best represent of... But no one is not one. No, it's not a problem. It's not a problem. A part of a premise. A surface that is curved, you have to represent in a plane. It's a plane. It's a plane. So the result of these modifications that we are introducing are dozens of different projections different. The most famous and surely the one that consulted Donald Trump when interested in Groenlandia is the projection of Mercator, which is one that was designed originally for the maritime navigation, and that is the one that we use, for example, in Google Maps. It is a projection cylindrical that is characterized by increasing the size of the poles, we see there, for example, with Groenlandia and also with the Antartida, and the hemisphere north. Like the screen is so big, it seems to be a little pixelated. Well, of course, we don't expect to have a screen. For example, Mercator is the map that we have in the studio behind the... Yes, or the one that anyone has used in Geography and History in the Cold. The Google Maps is Mercator. Yes, yes, just. Contribuyendo to the eurocentric view of the world. Total. There is no one. What is it? What is it, David? Total. In the contrary, other projections, like the Winkle Triple, which we use a lot of in the world, allow a representation more proportional to the size of the territories. Here is the Winkle Triple. This is the one that uses, for example, National Geographic. Yes, just. That is. That is, and we have a lot of people. And the team of Kartola has applied because it's the most just. But imagine, for example, that we're talking about the seas. That we're talking about the seas. We're talking about the map of Mundi, but we're talking about the ocean. Well, you're talking about a projection that focuses on those ocean. Like the projection of Spielhaus. And this projection... This is a cool map. This is a cool map. This is the head of the head. Basically, we've said that we're going to put this projection. It's spectacular. This is one of the joyous. This is for the people who are watching it, it's a map of the waters that are explored and not explored from the water. Yes. So this is basically in putting, in order to the sea, not to the sea, in the sea, in the sea. So it changes completely the perspective or what we are used to, in a way a bit more normative, to see or understand the world. That is. In fact, if you look at this projection, it's in the center of the Antártida and what it does is place the continents in the margins. So, it's all the protagonism to the ocean and we can study better those mares. However, if the subject of our map is the geopolítica of the Arctic, for example, it's a possible way to use the called proxies estereographic polar, which is a proxies asimutal that is located in the center of the map the North Pole. And so we can see better, well, those dynamics, those Arctic routes, those geopolitics that there are in the Arctic. And here, a purpose of this, there is a piece of this, We have to mention an article from our colleague Álvaro Melino about how the map is distorsion in the world. He is centred, especially in explaining that projection of Mercator, the distorsion that it implies, and also offers the different projections that are used. It's an article extraordinary. Yes, and it's a bit about explaining, basically, how our perception of the world, in good shape, also, is modified, influenced, manipulated, sometimes, by different projections. that no necessarily has to be with maldict, but we are conditioned to be able to do it. So, to a little recapitulate, we have talked about the type of map, of that selection of information, also of the projection cartographic that we are going to use. There is a lot of information about how to make a map. We are talking about how to make a map like in Bricomania, but this is important, and now we are going to go a little bit to the implications. And they are things that the people who listen to us and who are here have to be clear, because in the end, you use it in your favor. It's to say, there are countries that use maps or maps or different projections to give more importance to their territory. We'll see probably how to justify actions imperialists, like the United States with Groenland, because Groenland is very big. A lot of things change the projections would be different. Here, related to this, for now to take the last few elements, there are three essential elements, which are the scale, which in the end, establish a little bit the relationship between the real dimensions of the Earth and the image that we put on the plane, that is, how much we approach to the reality, therefore, it is imprescindible to interpret a map to always put on what scale it is, so that the spectator... So, when you approach the audience, it is less distorsionable. In Google Maps when you reduce you can see the scale that for anyone who wants to use for example you have the orientation And the orientation defines how we observe the reality that we represent Here I have been a little bit This is a move. This is a move. I have put one of the maps, for me, favorite of the Atlas and of all the work that has been done in the world, which is this of Nilo, which is spectacular. Yes. So, if we, for example, study the Nilo, which normally we study from north to south, we can put it like this, or in this case, it's in the... in the... in the... in the... in the... Siguiente, norte a sur, pero en este caso izquierda a derecha. Exactamente, lo vemos al final. El norte está a la derecha en vez de arriba. Claro, el sur queda a la izquierda y el norte queda a la derecha. Cambiamos la forma de verlo y nos cambia por completo toda la forma y el análisis que pudiéramos hacer. En el plano, la ubicación también de los puntos cardinales, ya son convenciones que hemos creado y hemos establecido. Por eso, cambiar la orientación a la que estamos acostumbrados nos permite muchas veces ver dinámicas que son esas escaparían de otra manera. In this case, we see very well all that fight that there is over the Nilo. When you have the north to south, or from above, the end of Egypt is up and you lose a little bit of view what happens in the Ethiopia of the Great Lakes. In this map, for a hispanic, we call it right-wing, you see the image, the importance of the right and then how it is projected. It is that, as it is completely new, it is obligated to fix things that if you look at a perspective or a more traditional perspective, you pass it up because you are so used to fix certain things. Because it's the same thing you see. In the map of Nilo you look at the desembocadura. Right. Rapidly. No attention to the preses that there are here that cae in the center of the map the Great Presa of the Renacimiento of Etiopía. That is fundamental. However, if you orientate from above to the convention, you can't find much the Nilo. You can't appreciate the details. It's in the case of what you interest. And in this case, I think it's a pretty paradigmatic. Finally, the maps are also marked by their simbology, which is the language of a map. The title, the legend, the points and lines, the size, the colors, all this helps to understand the map and allows to identify what is every thing that appears in it. In reality, the data can be expressed in many ways in a map, through the color, the size, the density or the same symbols. No is the same a map of coropletas, where the color indicates the intensity of a phenomenon, that a map of symbols proportional, where the size of the points reflects the magnitude of that data. Every decision visual is not just aesthetic, although it is also relevant, but it is a way of telling a story and guiding the reading in the map, which is fundamental. A map has to be beautiful, that is very good, but has to be comprehensive, and has to be adequate to the public to be directed. Here even comes the toponym, which is how we call them This is also very important It's not the same to make a map where you put the Mexico or the Isles Malvinas that with the name of the America or the Island The meaning of the map varies completely What we do is what we do every time we have a map of the Malvinas that we have to go in the Argentina For example, in the Argentine if I remember correctly, also the part of the Antártida and other parts, that is, that is not only the Malvinas, but the other part of the Antártida. And it is very serious, when I say very serious, it is very serious, diplomatically, asking us on Twitter, in the way, that this is bad. But, well, that at the end, it is what there is. Yes, but more than that is what there is, that kind of things also have a political lecture, and you tell things, what you put in the map, what you call out, how you call it a thing, how you call it a thing, it also has its importance. Well, then, in general, we have seen a little bit cuáles son los elementos que definen un mapa. Claro, entiendo que un poco su forma de hacerlos, ¿no?, estos mapas también han ido cambiando a lo largo del tiempo. Al final hay una tecnología a la hora de hacerlos. Vamos un poco a los orígenes, David. ¿Desde cuándo podemos decir que existen los mapas? Pues mira, Fer, la elaboración de mapas te diría que es una cualidad innata de los seres humanos. Las personas han creado mapas incluso desde mucho antes de que se tuviera constancia de ellos. or that you were aware of that you were creating a map. Until now, one of the most ancient representations that we know in Europe occidental is found here in Spain. It was discovered in the Cueva of Abounds, in Navarra, since almost 14.000 years ago. Something like that. 13.660. The first monocartography, basically. Yes. It was a map that collected a series of photographs in stone that seem to represent the landscape that surrounds the cave, with the rivers, the mountains and the places of caza, maybe not in detail like here, but well, they were the ones that were not. They had no cookies, they were more rudimentary. These maps prehistoric, by calling them in some way, they limited to plasm in a graphic language the environment that they saw. However, they are a good example of that humanity already used representations cartographic with a practical use. Another paradigmatic case, which we mentioned in the episode 229 on the sea, are the maps of the Palos of the Binesios. That's a simple, but it's a very simple. I think it's a very complicated idea. Well, but they're going to get up. They're going to get up. No, they're going to get up. If you understand the map, because it's a way you're going to get up, perfect. Because for another reader, it's a way to move. And, again, better yet, because it's a simple map. So, you have to complex it too much to understand how to record and memorize these information obtained from the currents, the direction of the wind, the location of the island, which was the finalized of these maps. We can consider them as the preceding to the navigation cartes, which are not like the Institute of Hidrográfico of the Marine, but, well, it was an initial prototype. However, these bases of the modern cartography are already in Greece. The griegos were not the first in elaborating a mapamundi. That honor corresponds to the babilonians. However, their contributions were enormous. They admitted the Earth's esfericity, assigned the two poles, the equator and the tropics, calculated the size of the earth's sphere, more or less, with their difficulties, introduced the longitudes and latitudes, and ideated the first projections. These are the griegos. The griegos, yes. They left the sea voting for the rest. Well, those were the ones who sent us. They were the ones who sent us. But, a ver, I'll give you the merit. We're talking about Europe, but then we'll have to talk about what happened in Asia. No, we're the only ones. But it's true that the griegos made that the map were not only instruments to reflect the reality, but also to understand it. And, with the issue of the griegos, these maps can allow us to see how the world was. For example, Ecateo, the author of Periegesis, which is one of the first tratados of geography, he concebía the world of a geométric. We have brought a example that we are projecting now. At the end, his map was in form of disk, which was in two parts. Europe above and above, and around we had the ocean, which was that border of the desconoced, and in the center his city, Mileto, which we have there. It is to say, again, again, we understand how, what you put in the center of the map, or above, let's see, has also There's also much meaning now, but it already had it before. It's not always been. There was a miletocentrism. Yes, there was a lot of people. But well, later we have others like Eratóstenes, which was known for its own almost exactness of the Earth. This man designed a rectangular map in which he established the first system of coordinates on a map. We know that this is coming from very far. It was with seven meridian and seven parallels that he served to ubicate the main cities. And here we have brought, this is the map of Eratóstenes. Curiosamente, la línea paralela más céntrica atraviesa la isla de Rodas, que además de ser el centro comercial y naval clave para los griegos, se consideraba el nexo de Orión entre Oriente, en el mar Mediterráneo, con Oriente, perdón, con el mar Mediterráneo, que era el corazón del mundo conocido. Que ya hemos hablado en otros episodios, esa relación del otro, de Oriente, Occidente y demás, o sea, que ya se ve, o sea, de la geografía. En todos los mapas griegos, romanos, siempre se ve como Asia para allá, ese mundo desconocido. Claro, que al final Asia siempre va como a la derecha o hacia el este, Europa occidente hacia la parte del oeste, y luego siempre la idea de el centro es lo bueno, el centro es lo importante, lo menos importante es la pericia. Y eso lo vemos con la típica de Mercator, con Europa en el medio, ¿no? Eso es hace miles de años. Sí, que en relación con esto, para quien nos esté viendo más aquí que estamos en la ciudad de Cádiz, no es casualidad que la costa mediterránea estuviera tan bien cartografiada, and with more detail, we thought that the Greeks were good navigators and they were also able to map with that cabotage, based on the observations of the coast, and also they were able to feed all the experience and knowledge of other commerciants, military, navigators, they were collected and they were cartographed. Also, as a country very coastal, their knowledge of the mares was very superior. However, if there was a author that really influenced the modern cartography, like none, that is Ptolomeo, Claudio Ptolomeo. Ptolomeo, the good. Ptolomeo, Ptolomeo. Yes, the one that we studied all in history. And this gentleman, what was his contribution to the map? Well, well, it is also the geography. Yes, he has many opportunities because he was aastrónomo and, in fact, he was the one who was the one that was a bit of geocentric that would have to endure during centuries until he came to Copernicus with the model heliocentric. But in the context of the map, Ptolomeo was also very important because he compiled all that scientific scientific scientific information until that moment. He published a book that is Geography, which includes the first Atlas known, with a map mundi and 26 regional maps, and that became the guide to create maps terrestres until the 15th century. Through his geography, Ptolomeo standardised the representation of the known world, with systems of latitudes and longitudes, and also perfectionist the first projection of the earth's surface which had been obra of another grieger previously which was Hiparco de Nicea but curiously, two of the aspects that would be more influenced in the geography of Ptolemy were errors and this is very curious because at the end of the Indy and estimating the size of the surface of the Earth he made a follower of his many centuries called Cristobal Colón that he could reach the India to travel to the oeste. So, a few years later, the European Union would be able to meet America. To give us a little bit the importance and the power that comes to the cartography in that. If the Colombian had not been wrong, Colón... A moon directly. A lot of people would have thought that by there could be a chance. Of course. We have said many times that the errors or the errors are a little casual. They have had a lot of importance to the history. That precisely, between the works of Ptolomeo and those expeditions of Cristóbal Colón over the 13th century, to see the importance of the work of Ptolomeo. Here I understand that the occidental cartography, later we will talk about cartography in other places in the world, in these 13th century, I understand that it had to evolve quite, although Ptolomeo, I don't know, it had to be done in high, the Lord. Well, it had to be done in high, until the point of that it didn't evolve too much, without taking the illusion, Fer. The truth is that until the Middle Ages, the cartography has not experienced a great development, at least in the West. Rome, for example, did not take advantage of the griegos in the elaboration of maps, because the Romanes, whose land and marine activity was more important than maritime, were interested in the representation of the paths and the forestry and the parages, much more than the coast. The Romanes only needed two types of maps, one that represents the territorial grandeza of their empire, of course, and another that served for its military, administrative and commercial purposes. For the first, the Romanians recovered that map of the world that allowed to represent the earth, that Orbis Terrarum, which was occupied practically in total by the Roman Empire, at a level of territorial. It's what his, of course. Of course. And for the second, they designed what was known as the Tabula Peutingeriana, which was a cartogram that represents the routes of the Empire. after the crash of the... Well, no I know if... Yes, it's what I see in the Cogote. Yes. The table, do you have it there? No, no I have it. Además, this proyección romana... No, no, no, I have met it. Well, that's for looking at the... No, I have time. This proyección romana would have the north to the left. It's to say, that Hispania is in the lower part of the map, which is what's interesting. It's to say that the Romanians like that they give a turn and Africa is at the right. For that we see also how they change the map when the road is, for example, 90 degrees. It's a traditional map. And we'll see how this then influences a lot in what comes after. There he is. In fact, after the collapse of the Roman Empire, the year 476 BC, the classical heritage is in second plane. The end of the Roman Empire, the barbarians and the decline of the maritime trade will give origin to that feudal system, to that Christian Europe. And in their place, that Christian Europe was the Christian Europe that was the meaning of the map. The Orbis Terrarum of the Romanes is not a representation of the imperial imperial of Rome, but a reason of religious expression. It is also a very interesting thing when we prepared the chapter and read the work that David did with the investigation, and it is how in the maps medieval, they abandon the geographical representation as a matter of the earth to abra the symbolism religious in the maps. That is something that I have not conceived. And I don't know how to paint gatos. You have seen the gatos of the medieval and the tapices? You have seen a gatos? Well, for example, Velázquez was a very good painter of the gatos. Well, only the gatos. No, but at a certain age are difficult, they are difficult to paint. It's a terroristic. With the theme of representation that I don't know. Here, I don't know if... It's more than these things that you give me of, but more than that, This is not in the guion. No, it's not in the guion. The Fernando is on other things. But, well, at the end, what interesting is this historical recourse, apart from the gatos, here we are very very gatos, is how change the importance of what includes in the map. It's to say, we're not talking about geography, we're talking about the religion as a vertebrate of the social life and also cartography of that moment. Además, no has any scientific data, but it's represented as well. And in this way, here is a interesting map that we have brought and we're going to project now, Here we have the map of T and O. In them we see that the world habitable was represented in a form of a disk. This map is from there in the middle. The circle of the O represents a circular ocean that contained in its interior a water in form of T, giving form the three continents known in that time. Asia, Europe and Africa, which is very much of what we saw in the Romanes earlier. These maps are not thought of any half. No, pero aquí, de nuevo, evoca también a la Santísima Trinidad. Sí, sí, claro. Y esto tiene muchísimo que ver. Mira, ya está, ya la han sacado. Claro, los mapas religiosos de la Edad Media aceptaron esa orientación que veíamos en los romanos, de los Rubi Sterrarum. ¿Por qué? Pues porque en la parte superior se encontraba el Este, lo que les permitía situar en un lugar preferente todas las representaciones bíblicas más importantes. Claro. Y eso, al final, tiene mucha importancia. Pensemos que en el cristianismo el Este simbolizaba la resurrección de Cristo, the new place, that is there that occupy a place predominantly visually and also a level of jerárquical in the map. That's it, as you can imagine, there is no convention of placing the north above, the south above and the east. There is another logic applied to the place of the territory. Well, but what important is above. If the important is above, if the important is above, where the Reyes Magos is above. But, as you can see, here in this, because this is much more general, there are others more specific of those maps of Eno, we saw that the majority of these maps, they were not in the center cities like Mileto, Roda, Roma or Constantinople, but they were trying to place Jerusalem in the center of the map. And there were others, like the Mapa Mosaic of Madaba, that, although not put Jerusalem in the center, but they represented much greater than the others. In the Middle East, the religion has a fundamental weight in the entire cartography. But in any case, beyond the artistic and narrative and cultural or historical that they can have, these maps have no value cartographic. They have no value. It's not for where to go, basically. Their function is not diferenciating from the images that you could have been in a church and it's a way to represent the world with a strong influence of religious. Of course, it's like one of the... I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, there's a clear sense of power, although it's religious. Of course, yes, this could be a clear sense of a map. Of course, yes. I'm going to say, yes, yes. Yes, of course. Here I ask what we said before, not if this is the same thing in other parts, because we have talked a little bit about the Greek, the Roman and tal, but the Chinese had time existent there with their imperies. Do you do these maps in China? Or, for example, is a period of expansion of the Arabian Arabian Arabian, maps of the Arabian Arabian, what did these people do? How did they do it? How did they represent them? Because I think they would have a map. Well, it's a great question, Fer, because, as you say, these differences political, economic and cultural the vision of the world that these peoples have and put their maps because they were doing maps and in many cases, quite better than this. For example, in China, the beginning of the cartography is to the 3rd century BC, when the griegos are already doing maps, the Chinese also. Concretely, Al Shujin, which is one of the five classics of the China Antigua, and that I'm sure you've read, I don't have any doubt. From the beginning of the description. One of the chapters of this work the characteristics geográficas of the nine provinces of that time and the hierarchical organization that had the territory. Here we see this territory that divided into five dominions that are represented by circles concentric. In the center is the imperial dominion, where directly governs the sovereign. Then there is the dominion of the soldiers. And the last circle, which is the most far away, was the of the salvages, where they were not civilized people, according to the Chinese, those who were not integrated. This map to me seems very curious because it is like It helps to understand very well that idea of the weight that has the power in the mentality of the psique China along the history. Like that irradia power but If the name of China is Imperium of the Middle it has a sense that in the periphery the one is around it is a little less than Chusma B And of course how they represent it is a living image of how they describe the projection of power in the territory. Just. And in fact, they show the characteristics of the map of China and of that vision of the world. Because the cartography of China no had that global vocation that had the griegos. No buscaba represent the world known, but cartography of their own territory. Además, those maps had a practical meaning, not so much. They were maps that were used to plan routes, control territories, administrate impuestos and move tropes. However, at the same time of the world's vision, the Chinese cartography introduced very important to the technical level. Especially thanks to Pei Xiu, who is called the Ptolemy Chino, who is the father of the Chinese cartography. He lived in the III century BC, more or less. The postcard has already been done. Yes, could be also Ptolomeo, the page 2, griegos. Or that there is a... Yes, well, a ver, each one with the referents that we have. But yes, could be the reverse. Each one that has chosen what you want. For the collection of his map, Page 2 implant a series of principles cartographic principles like the scale, the orientation, the distance and the representation of the relief. That is, elements that today we have in mind. This is a good thing, eh? The page 2. No, no, it was a bestiality. This is the legend. This is the legend. This is the legend. This is the legend. This is... We see that here it is the basis of the method cartographic chino, which is based, above all, as it is, in the use of proportional structures to represent the terrain, the distance and the coordinates. In fact, it is going to use even the dynasty Qing. We are talking about the mid-19th century, the beginning of the century XX. So basically, it is a scale. Yes, yes, yes, what it is applied was a scale to the cartography. And it is true that, as we see in China, or as we mentioned in the chapter of the Mark, also in Oceanía had their maps, but it's true that who influenced in a way of determining the modern cartography was all that in the Arabian world Islamic and without them we would not have the cartography that we have today. Why? Because in the 7th century the apparition of the Arabian in the Mediterranean Mediterranean blocked the maritime trade between the Byzantine Empire and the European Occidental. What happens? The Arabian control all those routes terrestres of Africa and Asia, so that throughout the years they were able to find a huge amount of information cartography. For commercial, I suppose. We have talked about the Arabian, also Barro para Casa, sometimes the Empire Otomano also influenced their way in all this. Yes, the Arabian islámico. Exactly. So, what we saw, what we saw a long story, is that the Arabian developed their own cartography based on that Greek knowledge that they also absorbed. And curiously, the Arabian, the Arabian, the Arabian, the Arabian, the Arabian, the Arabian, the Arabian, the Arabian, was born in Ceuta. It was not a feud like that, but it was in the area of Ceuta. It was Alamuhamad al-Idrisi. And this man, on a Muslim, worked for the king of the king of Rogelio II of Sicilia. I was going to say the name of Rogelio. This is now. Yes, yes, for that. In fact, I'll put it. The king of the Normandos of Sicilia. Of course. In plan, Rogel II of Sicilia, he encouraged to direct a new center cartographic with a mission. Create the best map of the time. Of all the history of his time. And the result was this, which is the tabula rogerina, that was published in the 1154. This map has the north, located in the lower part, from the European Europe, and Scandinavia, to China and India. And also the Sahara. What happens? That the influence of this map was tremendous. Why? Because it concentrates the most part of the cartography that existed at the time. And it's a great map. This map is 180 degrees. It's been turned completely. The llamative of the Rogerian is that you see completely the opposite. You see the south, above. The Mediterranean, the Negro, the Caspian, there we have China. It's completely given the turn. But, above all, in the end, the Arabian influenced decisively in the cartography for two reasons. First, because thanks to the translation of the Arabian geologists, which was made by the monks, Europe Occidental discovered, or rather, the work of Ptolomeo, which was created. A little bit with the philosophy. Yes, exactly. And second, because also the Arabian Arabian introduced the brújula that they brought from China. And that changed completely, re-impulsed. With all the maritime trade, it was re-impulsed and gave birth to something very important, which are the portulans. That's what I think I think will sound like to the people who... Ayer we were watching a few portulans, in this case of Spain, but it's very interesting. The portulans, also, are one part of this story. Maybe there is people who don't know it because it's a canon, because it's a problem, so let's explain what the portulans are and then, above all, why are they so important in the cartography medieval. Yes, and also, it affects particularly our history here in Spain. The portulans were maps of maritime maritime that emerged at the end of the XIII century. They were responsible for precisely the contours of the coast, to show the lines of route to trazar the direction to follow, of introducing scales to calculate distances and to provide information about the wind and the wind. The goal of these nauticals were practical. They were looking to facilitate the navigation of the marineros, no more or less. Why are they in the portulans? Because in the south of Europe begins to flow that maritime commerce in the Mediterranean. The portals like Génova, Venecia, Valencia or Mallorca cobran enormous relevance. And This explains that the first portulano known in the Mediterranean will be found in Italy. And above all, that the school most destacable in the development of the portulanos is the Escuela Cartográfica Mallorquina. By the way, this Escuela Cartográfica Mallorquina came out in 1375 one of the most important works in our history, which is the Atlas Catalán. It was a map that was looking for the most possible information about the world known to that time. In fact, it was a place like the Canary Islands, reals, with elements imaginative like Gog and Magog, which shows that the real and the fictitious can live in a map. I think that here is this, and I don't want to know much. There are parts that are not known. In fact, this map, who is a fan of the No. It's the Fin of the Mundo, we use it to show the importance of the king of Mali in the gold, because just behind Fernando... Ah, here is Mansa Musa. Manza Musa is at the bottom with the Ola of Oro. Also, it was visualized to those kingdoms, those kingdoms that there were, that they were asociated to the history. And we can't forget that we are still in that Europe very cristian. This map here in the proxies we have cut because it's much longer. It's much longer. It's even more long. If it's in high definition internet, who can see it. And it's super curious to see how it's represented. between the A.T., and this one, there is a lot of important. Yes, of course. But in any case, what they did the portulans was to break with what we said before, that tradition religious in the cartography, in Europe. There were interests of commercial and other things. Here they began to represent again the world, recogiendo data, based on a little more on the geography, and the scientific side of the subject, and they came to occupy a central place in the entire discipline. The same way, the portulans helped to set up asent a one of the conventions most interiorized in the modern modern actual, which is the location of the points cardinales. To facilitate all that navigation, and here the people of the Armada will explain it later with more detail, basically, the north began to be located in the upper of the map, following the direction of the aguja imantada of the brújula, which was aimed towards the north magnetic. Therefore, the south already left, the east to the right and the west to the left. But, above all, the portulans, along with the discovery of the work of Ptolomeo, set the bases of modern cartography. Why? Because the technological advances, the entry of the brújula, the astrolabio, the quadrante, plus the cartography advances, contributed to a whole irruption of the era of the discovery. Here are the Ottoman Empire, to all the European power in that period. No, que al final toda esta tecnología permitía planificar rutas más largas y seguras y además fomentaba la expedición marítima, porque de la mano de esto se desarrollaron naves mucho más capaces. Que esto yo creo que lo tocamos en un capítulo, hablamos en el comercio. Sí, esto le hemos tocado en un capítulo, como conector global y demás. Claro, ahí es cuando justo coincide todo eso, coincidencias de la historia, que desarrollos tecnológicos distintos acaban potenciándose unos a otros. Bueno, y la necesidad de unificar criterios para que todo el mundo, pues yo qué sé, que te cambias cartas con un mercader de otro país, pues... They were having imperios more large, so it was easier to homogeneize things in those territories. Yes. I want to sound that, for example, Acantilado has a book about the invention of the North, which is from not much time. Yes, that is super cool. Of course. I have to tell you this story. Acantilado has a bad book. But, well, it's true. But, at the end, it's important and it's a process histórico that we have. And here, for a little bit, why have you come to see people young to see us, when we see a map in the text books, we don't think that it's represented like because it's already written, but there's a story behind, there's a projection of power, of where you can go, of who is above, who is above, all that influence. And that if you look at the turn, it's not bad. In fact, it was a bit of a problem. It was a debate, if we had to reformulate the form of the map, and there was also, I remember that in the red, it was moved a lot, and it was like, maybe it's important, and all this, we're in a phase in which, well, the north to the river, etc. What is that is translated into the era of the discoveries that comes in immediately after? How is this historical process in the way of making maps? Well, the era of the discoveries, we can say that is the great cartographic revolution until that time, because fusion the development of navigation with the cartography. The maritime expeditions expanded the limits of the known world, at least in Europe at that time, and the knowledge of the surface of the terrestrial. In fact, during those years, they carried out those expeditions of Cristóbal Colón-América, also the expedition of Magallanes and Elcano, and thanks to the expeditions of Colón, we found in the year 1500 the first representation cartographic of America, of Juan de la Cosa. That is a special and ilusion. Yes, because we have a article in the world of our colleagues of the carto that went to the Museum Naval. The Museum Naval of Madrid and they represent it like this. And they could photograph it, study it. And adapt it to a digital version so that people could see how it was represented. And appear the three reyes magos. Gatos, no, reyes magos. I'm going to project it in the version. Ah, the version, right. Well, it's a real fan. It's a real joy of the Spanish cartography. And from there, the representation of America will be constant in the cartography renacentist. In fact, the first one that uses that name to refer to the American continent in a map will be the German cartographer Martin Waldseemuller in 1507 in honor to Meryl Kowesputz. Menos mal que no lo bautizo como él, because if not, I'm going to be flipando todavía. No te haces una idea de lo que he sufrido antes de llegar a decir el nombre. Yo cuando vi todo el guion dije, madre mía, qué cantidad de nombres, menos mal... Vaya, vale, esquivamos ahí con el bueno de Martínez. Sí, sí, sí, menos mal que fue un poco honrado con las generaciones que vivieron después. La cuestión es que aquí, para que veamos un poco todas esas casualidades de la historia, all these needs of navigation and the profusion of this era of the discoveries that he had, and here is the people from the Institute of Geographic National, it also has a little bit of a connection with this, that the maps were much more precise, because the marineros needed to have better localised where they were those points. So, at the end, if they were not changing, recalculating constantly, and the solution to that problem the found in 1569 a flamenco, called Gerard Kremer, which we know as Gerardus Mercator. And that's why we have that proyección. If you look at a neerlandese here, you can see it. Yes, well, in this time... Let's talk about it. But let's go there. Mercator, at the end, what he did was create a rectangular map with which the navigators could be able to draw their maritime routes as rectas and for that he used what we saw at the beginning, that's a cylindrical projection around the Earth in which the meridian and parallel appear as lines, parallel and rectas. And to preserve that form of continents, it increased progressively the distance between the parallel conforme they were away from the equator, that intermediate line. What, in the end, is very much the size of the region north. What happened? The projection Mercator... That was the less explored, it was to say, that probably what they were distorsioning was the nada. It was what we were more comfortable. But at the end, we see that that projection Mercator is very inspired by the portulans, and also marked a point of inflection in the cartography, because we see that that projection standardised the world to our days. And here there is something beautiful, and it's a bit of a bit of the consuetudinary, and how in that time, that, of course, that projection was useful and was, and it was, slowly, adopted by different imperies, and it ended up normalizing the projection. It is useful, super useful, because it is for a great time to navigate with a great precision. Another thing is that for understanding other things it is not useful, but it is used to it. What happens? That we have Mercator, but it is true that there were other cartographers, in particular flamencos, that were highlighted in that moment. Just a year after Mercator, that launched this projection, Abra Mortelius publicou, here we have published, the Teatrum Norbisterratum, which is the first modern atlas of history. and uses also this type of projicciones. It is quite illustrative of how it works very well for everything. It's much more complete. It's the first Atlas modern in the history. And here we can say... That were flamencos, it's not casual. No, of course not. What is clear is that from here, 1569, is the moment in which we can say that all these conventions that we have reflect, they're consolidating. We have North and Sur, we have the people's agrandados, and that has practically practically left today. Of course, that influence of the Mercator tells us totally about what was well adapted to the world in that moment, that is a world of imperial, expansion colonial, mercantilism... And that were the European people who set the base of the cartography. There it is. Although it is true that it was conceived with a practical fact, we are not going to culpar to Mercator of what was supposed to be after his projection, this projection of Mercator symbolizes the European European Union of that moment. Projected a European view of the world and occidental, because it was a size of Europe and North America in detriment of other regions, like Africa or America. Think about that in the era of the discovery, the maps left to be only a tool to orient themselves and became also an instrument to dominate territories and people. The arrival of Europe to America obligated to use the maps to distribute that territory and legitimize its colonization. That, also, having maps was also a tool to be able to be able to. Here you have the Casa de Contratación in Sevilla, like that map of Portulano with America. But also in the Escorial Universality there are many maps in the bibliothèque. The Vatican has a gallery of maps. To make a map is not easy. Who had that capability. That technology, that access showed a power. And therefore, to make a map was super prestigious. And in fact, a key example of this process is the Tratado of Tordesillas, 1494, in which Spain and Portugal were repented from the territories from Europe through a line that delimitaba the sovereignty of each one. From then, the maps are going to be fundamental to legitimize the reivindications territoriales of European powers and delimitize, as in this case, the spheres of influence of the new colonial imperies. And that will change completely the map of the cartography, because from there in advance, the study cartographic became a matter of state. What could be mapeated, could be dominated. So the maps also transformed into a indicator of those balance of power between powers. And here we are projecting, for those who are watching, a map of the Tratado of Tordesillas, with a different projection to the Mercator, which we are used to because the team of carto played a bit with that. In the end, what said David is fundamental, how the powers were given the power that had the maps, and it is no surprise that the main cartographers belonged to those main powers. flamencos, españoles, británicos como un artista, como pintores, como músicos, filósofos claro, o sea, al final la Edad Dorada de la cartografía neerlandesa de Mercator a Ortelius pues coincidió con la época de Esplendor de Países Bajos a nivel comercial o sea, lo mismo sucedería con Francia e Inglaterra la cartografía francesa, por ejemplo experimentó un desarrollo tremendo durante el siglo XVII, que era ese momento en el que Francia se convertía en la gran potencia de Europa, las zapas de in 1648. The cartographs franceses, además, created maps, one of the maps of the world more precise, with actualizations of new territories, dimensions correct of Asia, also influenced a lot of the potential that had been in the Asian continent. They also found a new method to determine the length with more precision. They were able to help with new technical advances like the pendulum and the sextant were applied. But, as said, David, the most important is that geography is a field of scientific study. And this happens from the 16th century. In the field of illustration, they start to create, later, societies scientific that end up giving impulse to the geography and also promoting expeditions scientific. It is not just a matter of military, but also to the fact of the military. The fact that we have been explored in that episode of the science and the sea, as such as expeditions scientific also focused on the oceanography, the study of the seas, the ocean, the different disciplines. You have other things that you have to be suming, like other disciplines, the geodesia, which is the way, the dimensions, the size of the Earth. Also, oceanography, all this type of expeditions. And we see that during the 18th century, that the theory of Isaac Newton, that the Earth was not a perfect sphere, but a sphere of oblato, It's to say that it's achatado in the poles and then ensanchado in the Ecuador. And in fact, thanks to the geodesia, we were introducing new methods of medicine, like for example, the triangulation. With this, it facilitates a lot, because it's made a lot more precise and much more coherent. It to say little by little we were discovering the world in which we live And this also allowed to create more detailed maps scale and with this to develop other ramifications of the cartography like for example map regionales map topographic cartography military, and before we would have maps very general, but little by little, those scientific developments allowed us to be much more precise also to all the scales and levels. Yes, yes, at the end they have new utilities, new functions, and they are producing maps that also also and the change of the bestial. That, at the end, those maps will gain much more relevance when, at the end of the 18th century, the illustration, that spirit illustrated, will pass precisely to the nationalism. There will be a map of a strong ally in the nationalism. What change does this new political context and of the efervescencia for the map? Yes, we are getting a little closer to our current moment. And it's a change also very relevant, because as happened with almost everything, the maps were transformed into a crucial instrument for the national construction of the states. The national maps, the maps are topographic, which allow them to know better the territory. It's the moment in which they start to proliferate. And here is the map of Cassini, which is the first map of Cassini's topographic in France, made with the technique of the triangulation geodaysic, and that took more than half a century in completing. In the map, you see all the triangles that you did. The difficulty that this is spectacular, but the map is incredible. In the middle of the century it has to be done. Like to give a churro. Yes, but for that we can see the importance that this type of work had, because at the end they sent the precedent and the base of everything that comes after. And they dedicated 50 years to cartograph the country. Of course, it is a spectacular advance. And at the same time, the map also served to emphasize the national borders, the territorial conquests and those historic reclamations. In the beginning of the imperialism, we are already in the 19th century, these representations cartographic became more relevant as a tool of ideological and political domination. The maps reflected the knowledge that European explorers were transmitting from those territories until then, they were known for them in Africa, with all these explorations and other things. In the same way, they also helped identify natural resources, planify infrastructure for future colonies, But, above all, the maps allowed to define the colonial borders, because through them they legitimated the colonial reparting of Africa in the famous conference of Berlin of 1884-1885, in which they were drawn the limits of those territories without having in mind the ethnicities, cultural, etc. Well, according to the chapter of the history of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, we talked about when the reparting of Africa was produced, there was a hole in the center and nobody knew the size they had and they said, well, for the Belgas, well, for Leopoldo. And of course they thought they would give a little bit of territory to Leopoldo and they said, well, no is cartographed, and it's not how many times Spain is the Congo, but it was a bestiality. So it's also a fruit of that knowledge. They said, well, they said, well, you're done. For the Belgas, that's what they're going to say. Here, what's interesting is that from the first map we see, for example, the North of Africa, if it's cartographed, like Libya, Egypt and so on, But then, for example, the origin of Nilo No is not to be compared to the 19th century So, in the end, the African continent In the center, there was a huge interrogation Of, I don't know what there is I don't know where there is It's true that the coast of the coast Is that very cartographed But it was not known because there were no expeditions There were no interés And there was no interés And there was no interés There was no interés It's the century in which the military It's the century in which the military The military Because there is a professionalization of the map the increase of the size of the army and the spread of the aircraft, which proposes that the development of the map is more, that recoge the essential routes for the war, the fortifications and the positions of enemy. And, as I have another curious thing, and it is that, as I have happened with the military map, also began to emerge maps, and other things, there are maps geological, political, climatological... At the end, the 19th century is a specialization in the discipline of the cartography and also of the geography. And even the maps would be very useful in other fields, like for example, the organization of time. And this has to do with the technology technology. Think about the end of the 19th century, every locality fixed the hour, at least a little when the sun came, when the sun came, when the sun came. When the campanadas took the church, basically. Yes, it was a little bit of that. However, what happened? And this to me seems fascinating. The eruption of the ferrocarril forced us to design a new system that allowed people to know the horrors of different territories. Because if you had to take the train in Albacete, you had to know what hour was there, and not depending on when the mayor had told the sun that was above. So, in 1884, the current system of horrors, which we also have another map of this, in the International Conference of Meridian in Washington. the Earth in 24 hours and the Meridiano of Greenwich as the Meridiano Zero. So, the details of the map allowed us to divide the Earth in 15 degrees with exactitude and know what Meridiano corresponds to each place. So, with this, at the end, the technology made that we developed maps and divisions within the cartography to be able to know the time. No, we're going to go to the fight. No. We're going to go to Spain, but then there were a half a hour. Well, ayer we told them that, in plan, There were also fights, if you had to be Cádiz and others. Yes, because of the new, the zero, the center, the important thing. Exactly. There was a tension. With all that, what happens? That as soon as the map acquires that political and ideological, they also expand their use more than what strictly scientific is. And here we go back a little bit to the religion of the Middle East, because we have examples like this. That no only serves to represent geographically the territory, but also to become the map in elements of propaganda and also political political, especially with the irruption of the press. I think we have this map... ...I'm not sure, but here... This map I think would be French... ...is in English... ...is in English... ...is in English... ...I was thinking about the ferrocarril of Rhodes... ...you know, that's also that imperial... ...and these trends, also the maps using the satsir, They keep in the beginning of the 20th century, especially during the two World War II. We have seen that maps are a clear tool of propaganda and also of national vindication for that surge of the nationalism. And without maps, for example, we could not imagine the theory of the Red Levers Round of the Nazis, of how they were able to reach that space vital. Or the doctrine of Monroe, which we did in another chapter the other day. In the same way, we don't understand the disputes territoriales that were in Europe during that territory, or in the Orient próximo, the reclamation of the sionism in that period, how to divide the region, etc. We see that the cartography plays a fundamental role in the geopolitical disputes and in the reclamation nationalists of that moment. Totally. For example, to put in context this map propagandistic, it is 1877, a little after that started the Russian-Rusian war, so that Russia is represented, the Russian Empire, the goal of the map is to leave a Russia, basically. Yes, no engaña a nadie, it is very subtle, precisely representing the Russian-Rusian war with the tentacles, trying to grab everything that he has, and in that part of the bottom, also, Turkey, the Ottoman Empire. And the Iranian-Rusian Empire, all this. Yes, the era of the Gran Juego with the British Empire, with Afghanistan and all that. Evidentemente, aquí podríamos estar hasta pasado mañana citando ejemplos de usos políticos de los mapas, sobre todo en el siglo XIX y XX, pero más allá del margen, bueno, al margen de ese componente político que todavía perdura, y esto pasa cada día, si algo caracteriza al siglo XX es que, básicamente, aquí también hay una cosa interesante, es que introduce una serie de avances tecnológicos, de cuestiones técnicas, que hasta ese momento eran completamente impensables y que, de hecho, son lo que nos explica, no facilitan los mapas actuales. There you are, we have found that connection with the actuality, because the 20th century is a new revolution cartographic due to the technical innovations that you mentioned. The first one is the development of photography and aviation in a way almost simultaneous at the beginning of the 20th century, because the photography aérea will revolve completely the work cartographic. Before, to create maps, the cartographers had to go to the terrain physically to measure and draw those maps, which was slow, costoso and in occasions limited. Incluso para trazar fronteras era un jaleo. Claro, piensa que las imágenes desde el aire te permiten cubrir lugares kilométricos en minutos y acceder a terrenos mucho más peligrosos a los cuales no podrías acceder si fueras, por ejemplo, en otro medio de transporte. Al mismo tiempo, en el campo de la oceanografía también aparecen otras técnicas revolucionarias, lo hablamos en ese episodio de la ciencia y el mar, como el sonar, que además de esos fines militares, pues sirvió para el estudio de los fondos marinos. And in the same way, that photography aérea also served as a base for other technologies more advanced, like the satellites. In those years 60, 70, Guerra Fría, we have the satellite Peayos, the satellites Landsat by the United States, which allowed to do a whole field of the earth's surface surface in time real, which was impensable until then, and make it with images of high resolution. It was tremendous to a level of strategic, to know all the positions of your enemy. The crisis of the missiles of Cuba came in part... With photography, with photography. Yes, but it had that technology to be able to... And sum to the 20th, photography, aviation, satellites and computing. It is to say, you pass from the analogical to the digital. And with that, emerge the information geological, or GIS, that combine maps, images and data and that allows you to interact with visualizations. Also, all these innovations are not neutral. It is not happening by accident and it is developed and that is, and that is, all of a multilateralism, that is not so. There are also, they also explain and condition our vision of the world in terms of who the dominates. For example, when we ask our mobile phone to give us the exact location in Google Maps, the system that we use is the WGS84, which is the standard worldwide. What happens? That this system developed the Department of Defense of the United States during the Guerra Fría. And who is the charge of public and actualization it is the National Intelligence Agency, the estadounidense. That is, the digital maps and the navigation systems that we use follow the coordinates and standards established by the United States. Well, and not happens. Yes, it is also like the Internet. It is a little like the market, if it is useful for everyone at the moment, it is adopted. If it is a little, the GPS navigation system is also unedited. And it's true that there are other alternatives, like the GLONASS in Russia, Galileo in Europe, Beidou in China, but GPS is still the technology of reference to a global level, and many countries depend on it. A that adds that the companies that have invested in technology, Google Maps, Apple, Microsoft, are unedited. It's a different representation cartography actual It's a lot of power In the space digital And that's a hegemonia It also determines the projections cartographic That's what we're using at the digital Especially what we said before The Mercator In the second half of the 20th We popularized, as we said before New ways of projecting the Earth This is a result of all these Coloniales Critics All these international relations and universitaries that acabaron trasladándose también a la cartografía, de cambiar la forma en la que tenemos de ver el mundo para, de una forma, despertarnos un poco de, oye, de no cuenta, a lo mejor esto no es lo estándar. Por ejemplo, en el 73, Arno Peters, este hombre, presentó la proyección de Gal Peters que distorsiona la forma de los continentes para representar su tamaño de manera real. Y la idea de ese señor... Es muy fea, pero... Sí, yo no, esta no la hemos metido en... Pero es más realista en ciertos aspectos. Claro, al final buscaba eso, pues, So, correct that, to do more importance to the third world, to the south global... In Galpeters Africa, it's a very large. It's a very small. And Groenlandia is small, but it's a very small. And it's much more difficult... With respect to Galpeters, it's a very useful thing. If you have to represent everything in a equitativa or a little bit. The question here is that Mercator, what he does is sacrifice the size for the size, and what does Galpeters do is sacrifice the shapes to preserve the size, or at least a more representation. And then a little bit of explaining how they have done the maps, what has been done their history, would you also want to end this episode with the future of the maps, to see if it has reached the end of the map, in the sense that we have done tope. Or, I don't know if you think new technologies can give a new impulse to the maps, What changes you can have? I don't know if they're gaining importance with a world that has to be a geografia, as a method a little imperialist, to return to influence the territory, if the map has a new weight. I think the maps, we've seen, have been important, but probably now they're more important than ever. And I explain. We're in the era of data, the era of an enormous exposure to infinite quantities of information. The maps, precisely, serve to democratize that information and also to avoid an infoxication, an excess of information that we have to do. Or to order ideas. If we have more technology, it means that we have more capacity to cartograph, to know what we still don't know. Those marine fonds, that now we know in detail only the 25%. Just what we said before the Institute of Hidrográfico of the Marine. Well, all that, thanks to the maps, we can know or represent them. And with all the strategic resources, with that geopolitical struggle that we have, for example, for the lands, for the primates, critical mass, the map are fundamental to know the environment and to know the places in which those resources are found. So I think that now even the map, as it has been important always, can continue being it more than ever. And I think we're in another point, as we talked about with the era of discoveries and the development of the cartography, I think we are, and it happened with Internet and the discovery of the GPS, in its moment I think we are in another moment in which the development of the artificial intelligence and new technologies will cross with the development of cartographic and will give new realities and new ways of understanding how we see the map. Ayer, with the glasses of virtual reality, we saw here in Avantia, how you can see in 3D a map and manipulate it with your hands and close and close. That is probably a lot of, in 60, 70 years... It's like a lot of interaction. It's much more normal. The artificial intelligence will help much more to develop the cartography, the new parts of the planet that we don't know, because that is something very significant, what said David. We don't know the 75% of the surface marine of the Earth. The surface of the B, that is, there are... The surface of the marine. But it's a crazy if you think. Entonces, el desarrollo tecnológico probablemente facilite que la cartografía tenga esa profundidad del 3D en la representación. Y probablemente veamos como poco a poco vamos descubriendo mucho más de nuestro planeta. O se centre en el espacio o incluso, algo que en el orden mundial hemos intentado alguna vez, cartografiarlo digital. Vamos a tener que de alguna forma empezar a tener mapas, no sé cómo serán, pero de conceptos digitales. and maybe we find out with how Internet works, and that happens to be a representation of data in a way different way, or if you discover new ways to do it. So, probably the development of the cartography will go there, but what we have to do with it, and who listen to us is that the cartography will continue to be central, is very important for all the launches of these irredentisms that we see, in the case of China we're going to see, in the case of the United States, so it will continue to be very important at the international level, because, as you have said David at the beginning, it's always been a long history and it's not going to stop being. So, to understand the map, to see how they work and how they go, I think it's important. And, above all, to see who is the one that marks the line in the future. What type of projections are used. In EOM we have talked about it once, of until I think it will happen. Mapes made with artificial intelligence and yet still is being fundamental the human hand. But maybe in 5 or 10 years... That probably will happen. If you ask a map to the AI, maybe it's a simple thing. But a map of Spain, where you represent this, this, this, and this, and this, and this, and this. Because we see, of course, that there are projections or ways of placing the world different in function of the applications that you use. And I don't think that if you have applications in China, we start to get used to that in one application you have one with the Atlantic in the center and in another with China in the middle. Or that Donald Trump tells you to Google, hey, that you change and America in the middle, or you enter Google Earth. All that can happen. And it would be weird to see again a mix of the nationalism and politics with the character. Yes, we have not focused much on that symbiosis or relationship between nationalism and maps. We could have talked about, I don't know, of the tropic like 6-Pico, which are the frontier of Africa, which is a lot of lines in a map. But well, all that exists. Today has been a bit of a repasal of the history of the maps, the applications. Good chapital. Yes, yes, it has been with the sun as hot as the people. Basically, it's a bit of a recopilar the history of how they do the maps, and I think it's interesting and the typical element that is super common in our lives and that we never have finished studying or to get into depth, even to talk about it critically. So, that's what, much more than David for telling us all this. It's a pleasure. And much more than you, Eduardo. A you always, and to the audience. Of course, thank you also to Navantia for bringing us here to San Fernando and for collaborating with them in this episode. and of course, thank you all for coming to us and listening to us. It's a pleasure and we'll see you next episode. you