Knicks Historic Comeback Reaction + How Can OKC Recover vs. Spurs? & Kidd Out In Dallas

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When the Cavs were up by 22 in the fourth quarter Danny Green while I was watching the game with, turned to me and Dominique Collins of our producers and said, it's time for me to go home. This game is over. We shook our hands and he left. Good analysis. Joining us from Oklahoma City where he's covering the Western Conference Finals which are currently being led by the San Antonio Spurs in case you hadn't heard is Ben McMahon. Howdy partners. There's stuff going on on the home front as well but it's hanging out in Bricktown. On the home front you mean the Dallas Mavericks I assume and we'll be speaking about that a little later. Okay so here in New York City the streets are still alive because the Knick fans are still pouring out of the garden following their overtime winning game one. And I will just say that the Cavs were playing for three-ish and three plus quarters one of their best games of the year that I think was characterized by great floor game from Donovan Mitchell for what looked like the second straight game. Terrific ball movement, drive and kick, drive and kick, moving bodies in the basketball, playing with confidence, playing with poise the way they played in Detroit when they won game seven on Sunday. And the Knicks looked very much like a rusty team that was playing a little flat and playing against a team that was in better rhythm. And then with 20, up by 22 with about nine minutes left to go in regulation everything changed and I will just say that I got the following text from my wife with this from my son. Now my son Dane had two doubles and pitched three innings in a baseball victory. He's eight years old but it wasn't the most proud I was of him tonight. I was more proud of what he sent me here at the beginning of overtime. The Knicks were down by like 28 and now it's on OT. I guess what you said is true. There's always time. The Bond temps would listen to me like my son. Seriously. He would learn so much about the NBA. I just enjoyed the great day and are just giving you some stick with the Cavs going down in flames. He was being mildly condescending there. Mildly? That runs in the family. Oh man. So I have to say that Jalen Brunson obviously was absolutely the definition of captain clutch. He had 15 points in the fourth quarter. He was able to really deliver some excellent execution. Some of the shots he made were hard. Some of them were easy but he got the Knicks over the hump. They collectively played pretty good defense down the stretch. I don't want to take anything away from the Knicks who had a real high energy quality performance. Obviously the Garden loved every second of it. It completely energized them and puts them in a really good position in this series when I expect them to play a cleaner game starting going forward. But Bond temps, I have to say the Cavs had what I could only refer to as collective cognitive freeze for the last 45 minutes they were out on the court. Absolutely completely stopped. I have to assume the fatigue played a role with them playing their eighth game in 15 days or whatever. I cannot believe how the Cavs completely stopped making any sort of coherent decisions on the sideline in the game collectively. That was a wretched result for the Cavs and their hopes of pulling some sort of upset in this series. Yeah, I mean it was literally incomprehensible watching the game. All the awful decisions they were making as a group. To me this starts with Kenny Atkinson. The Cavs had two user lose-it timeouts which means when you get to the three-minute mark of the fourth quarter everybody goes down to two timeouts. They had four timeouts left in the fourth quarter. As you just said they're coming off playing a best of seven series that went the distance. By the way it was their second consecutive best of seven series that went the distance. They played every other day essentially for a month and they're coming down the fourth quarter of the game. Jaylen Brunson gets hot. The crowd is going. Kenny Atkinson never calls a single timeout. Not only does he not call the user a lose-it timeout, he doesn't call a timeout all the way until the end of regulation at all at any point. Meanwhile Jaylen Brunson starts making shots. Yes, the Knicks start to get back in the game. Yes, he then sends as aggressive a double team as I've ever seen anybody do at Jaylen Brunson every single possession which Jaylen Brunson then just very casually tossed the ball usually O.J. Annobey at the top of the key who either had a wide open lane for a dunk or another pass for a wide open three and they just kept giving up one wide open shot after another and they didn't change anything. It was unbelievable to watch them just completely melt down and Donovan Mitchell had 29 points when he hit a three with 8.13 to go in the fourth quarter. It was 0 for five the rest of the game. Had one turnover. It was pretty much invisible. James Harden's defense was reprehensible and even by James Harden's standards. It was a collective meltdown but I really just was flabbergasted by what Kenny Axe was doing. I couldn't believe he didn't call timeout at any point. It was crazy to me. And his explanation was he likes to hold on to his timeouts. You literally lose two of them. He's just crazy. Invest him in your 401K. I mean you're literally just called timeout four minutes to go in the fourth quarter. Just let your team to a break. I couldn't believe it. It was crazy. First off let me just say that Sam Merrill you know it was relevant this week the double bang that Mike Breen made famous with the Steph Curry shot 10 years ago in Oklahoma City. Tonight there was actually was a half bang. When Sam Merrill took the shot near the end of regulation. I thought it was in. It was game tied. I thought it was in. Breen I'm pretty sure said bet he like actually got the first half syllable out. He was prepared to bang it and then the ball rimmed out. Rimmed out. Honestly that should have counted for at least two and a half points. It was in. I don't know how it didn't go in. Rattled around the bottom of the net and out. For basketball karma that ball shouldn't have gone in. Well Kenny Atkinson said they got unlucky. Kenny Atkinson said they got unlucky and that he was proud of the way his team played. I guess he can be proud of the way they played for three quarters. But so basically taking a step back Mike Brown, Nick's coach desperate down 20 with less than 10 minutes to go put out basically an all shooting lineup. Richard Robinson had been playing earlier in the game. The Cavs were purposely fouling him. I think they put him on the line four times. He went two of eight and he had a good stretch in the first half but he was being ineffective. So he went to Josh Hart. The Cavs were totally helping off of. Josh Hart was the minus 23 in this game. Yeah. He took Jared Allen was guarding him and he was helping off of him. So Mike Brown made a sort of a I mean I don't want to say you're desperate in game one but sort of for the moment. I mean he really just subbed out Josh Hart for Landry Shamet. I mean it wasn't like he I mean he had his other starters in the game. He just went to all shooting. Sure he just went all offense. Yeah. Read the floor out put the ball in the hands and like let's just try to outgore him down 22. See what you can do. So I want to say about seven possessions in a row. They just went to a very basic pick and roll where they forced James Harden into a switch and put Harden on Brunson and Brunson got past him every single time. Well the Cavs weren't even trying to stop that. They were doing the most casual rub switches ever just like letting James Harden get isolated on Jalen Brunson. This is what I'm talking about when I basically said you know cognitive functions ceased because there was the timeouts it's a good point. But I would have accepted any sort of adjustment. Brunson made I want to say five or six baskets. He finally called timeout and in the timeout they made an adjustment and they decided to double team as you mentioned. And Kenny was asked after the game right? Bond Tempsley was like you know how come he didn't adjust. He's like well we did adjust but it was they only adjusted after the lead had gone from 20 down to like six. And then offensively and this is what happens when you have a collapse it's never one thing. It's always multiple things. And so the Cavs missed some free throws. They had some possessions that were lost due to free throws and they also stopped driving the ball. Everything that they did for the first three quarters they started Mitchell and Harden started foul hunting and the referees didn't give it to them because they didn't deserve it at that point. And so it was their offense you know arresting basically in addition to the fact that they were just being plucked apart on defense. And there was just no there was no attempts. There was no you know active attempts to stem the tide. And so this this is you know this is absolutely going to go down as a game that the Cavs lost I think maybe the Knicks fans wouldn't agree with that. Oh of course. Like listen Brunson going for 38 and Brunson catching fire in the fourth quarter and Landers Shamut coming in and giving them a spark like okay that's all that's awesome. And Knicks fans will remember that they can celebrate that. This is a collapse by the Cavaliers of epic proportions and the kind that just can kind of like how do you bounce back from this? How does how do you get that taste out of your mouth? You were up 22 with eight minutes left. How do you lose that game? It would have been better off if they got beat by 20 and the game was over in the fourth quarter and they just said well we didn't have any energy from you know it would have been a much better situation because then you're like well we can we can play better in game two. I mean it's crazy all the way around. I mean you are right they called the one time out with 3.30 to go but I mean I it was just crazy to watch this that I'm just implode. And this was another Harden dud and Harden he'll have two or three good games in series and then there will be duds. This was another more turnover than bucket performance I think that's up to like 32 of them in his playoff career. The Jazz by the way are 0 and 6 this postseason when he has more turnovers than buckets. Like Cavs I think you said the Jazz. The Cavs. Sounded like. They are 0 and 6. That's 6? That's a lot in one playoff run. And then they just hunted them. Brunson was 7 of 11 when Harden was the primary defender on them and there was just like bring him into the switch boom attack. And the Knicks spent almost none of the game doing that either. It was like I mean Mike Brown is sort of out to lunch for a lot of the game like they were they didn't really go at Harden for most of it. The Knicks game plan wasn't super effective. The Knicks were double teaming Harden and Mitchell and the Cavs were really smartly passing and then just really moving the ball and you know once you double team you make the pass it's 4 on 3 and the Cavs were attacking that 4 on 3 like going downhill and attacking it. They played a very smart effective game for three quarters and then just played a very very brain dead game from then on. And honestly like in the fourth quarter when the game went to overtime like the Cavs had no chance in that spot. The other thing I'll say. Sam Merrill shot didn't go in and I thought it was in it looked great and obviously it rimmed out. I was like there's no there's no way the Cavs are winning this overtime not with this place going insane and with the streak they were on. I mean 44 I don't know if we ever said it was 44-11 to end the game 44-11 in 13 minutes. It took a couple of really clutch shots for them to get the 11. It was 39-8. I mean it was just crazy. Landry Shama and Jaylen Brunson are not good defenders okay and Jaylen Brunson had five fouls for at least eight or nine minutes of game time and the Cavs as far as I remember maybe I can be shown video that proves this is not right. I don't think the Cavs ever went after them. They also were getting the ball over at like 16 or 17 every possession they were getting into stuff late. I mean they had a shot clock violation I think to start overtime in their first possession. I mean they were just they were they were just a mess. I mean just a complete and total mess. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. So let's talk about where the Cavs go from here Bontems. The Knicks I think very possibly could have played their worst game already and are up 1-0. My rule about never overreacting to game one I wouldn't have overreacted had the Cavs close this out and even 1-by-22 because I didn't think the Knicks played very smoothly or savilly. I thought O.G. had a nobie coming back from the hamstring definitely looked rusty and not 100% and this was you know he was playing the best basketball career when he had that injury against the Sixers. The Knicks couldn't make a 3 for you know 2 plus quarters. So you have to assume you know like I don't know what grade you would assign the Knicks in this game but it was through three quarters it was a D minus or D plus whatever. I mean it was probably an F. I mean they couldn't hit a shot. They were I mean they were down 20. I mean it wasn't very competitive and look I think for as much as we've banged on the Cavs for the way they ended this game and they deserve it obviously with the way the game ended. I do think if you're look if you can pull back to 10,000 feet and get away from the fact that they just gave away this game on the road which you don't want to do in a playoff series. Coming into the series talking to people with the Cavs for the game I think they were excited to get away from the Rockham Sockham Robot series that they got out of in each of the first two rounds where they're playing Toronto which was going to mix it up and be super physical and then obviously Detroit was going to mix it up and be super physical right and the Knicks like yes they have Mitchell Robinson you know they've got Josh Hart and O'Jane and Oby they've got some physical players but they the Knicks don't play like that like they're going to get out and run and they want to they're an offensive team they're going to play that way they're going to play at a faster pace like it all sort of leans into the stuff the Cavs want to do and I thought the Cavs like you said for 40 minutes the Cavs played great like the Knicks came out and got a little bit of a hot start early Mitchell Robinson made some plays early they got a early lead but then the Knicks couldn't hit a shot and the Cavs just methodically walked them down and third corner was great like it looked like they're going on their way to an awesome win that was going to really set things up going forward so I think if you're the Cavs I do agree to some extent with Kenny Axe and being happy with the way his team played for how they looked in the first 40 minutes of the game now I probably wouldn't have said I was super proud of how they played when you gave up 44 to 11 to end it but I do think if you're the Cavs you can come back on Thursday and feel confident that you can get a win here in New York and that you have the ability to win games in this series and win this series like they look like a team that came in the season as co-favorites with the Knicks but it's just very hard to give away a game like this in a series and still win it we talked about with Detroit giving away you know game 5 last round at home and if the Cavs do lose this series they're going to think back on it like I'm sure they still think about game 2 against the Pacers last year. I typically do not believe in momentum from game to game in a playoff series this might be an exception that was just such a horrific collapse like how do you wash that stench off you and play again in 48 hours and be mentally ready to play again in 48 hours and especially like this is a team they finally like Donovan finally got over the hump of never been in you know having made it to a conference finals but like you know Donovan's got playoff demons. Horton has like I mean he needs Ghostbusters with all the playoff demons that he has like and I don't know ma'am I just that one's going to linger I think. Yeah you know in talking to the Cavs folks before the game there was a real collective you know they felt a great relief there was you know getting to the conference finals getting through that series there was sort of you could tell I felt they were not they did not feel pressure it felt good about what they had accomplished and they played like that they played completely free I mean right from the start they looked completely at ease and you could see you know that they had this confidence about them that they had built up from getting those two road wins in Detroit and I was like wow I mean like this is really something that you know could carry over I mean that's what was going on and so you go from that to utter abject being gutted and so you know. Like an all time meltdown. Yeah there's a whole bunch of stats out there about like you know some three and eight hundred like seriously like three and eight hundred. What one in five ninety four when a team had a twenty two point lead with eight minutes left that thinks the stat that our folks had. The only stat that matters is forty four to eleven like that that is a hard one to stomach if you're a Cavs fan if you're a Cav member of the Cavs and like you said Brian the Cavs came into this game with absolutely no pressure because I mean you're in New York the band you follow what's going on. Everybody here for the last week and a half has been throwing a party about going to the finals and like talking about the ways the Dicks can beat the Thunder or the Spurs in the finals like it's just this is like they're going to beat the Cavs it's going to be great this is no problem everything is awesome. And the Cavs came in they escaped from this Detroit series they're the underdogs in this series they like you said big man James Harden has had all these you know losses in the second round in recent years he gets through Donovan Mitchell Evan Mowley these guys break through Kenny Atkinson gets to the conflict for all these guys like man this is a big accomplishment to get to the conference finals. They're the underdogs in the series they could play free and easy and that's how it looked like for even then though they were down double figures in the second quarter. And then they just dominated the next 20 minutes two quarters of basketball had the game completely in control and somehow some way just let Jalen Brunson say hey James Harden come here your guys screening I'm going to torch you and then they couldn't like from there it just completely unraveled on him from completely Mike Brown just said in the post game press conference it's no secret we were attacking hard and guess what our game plan is going to be in game two and three and four and we'll see if there's any more. They just was looking they targeted Harden nine times in the fourth quarter with you know forced him into the one on one isolation with Brunson and they scored 17 possessions there are 17 points in those nine possessions. Yeah I can't do that math but it's almost two. Yeah. What was the stat stat Williams sent me a stat about Harden Brunson. What is it here in the fourth quarter over time which James Harden is primary defender Jalen Brunson was seven for eight. It's pretty good. Have a good to beat what happened on the next low lead. I don't know. I don't know. The one play James Harden made was he hit that shot with about 30 seconds ago to put him up to and heart and Brunson just came back down with the ball went right around him and scored off the glass like I mean he might as well not have been there. Well and then Kenny said after the game that Harden was one of their better defenders which. I mean that's just not. Like he wasn't there was no part. I understand. I understand not wanting to go out there and roast somebody but like come on man like he's already rusted buddy. He can't have Brunson took care of the roasting. Yeah. That's what I mean. Like come on. Just just say we got to be better in game two like come on. We got to figure out ways to help them. Say sure whatever something something something else. Don't get it's not bad. Don't tell us something. That's just we just know is not true. Exactly. Come on. That's crazy. Yeah. I mean man. Yeah there's a there's a there's a bunch of a bunch of numbers. I keep seeing different versions but it's hundreds and hundreds of situations like this where there hadn't been a loss that I'm talking like it's just crazy. I mean it was it was one of the wilder swings is this place was dead. I mean the garden. I mean the garden was even in the second quarter. Like there was no energy. Again I think everybody was just expecting a party and the calves showed up and played well and got up and like the Knicks were two for 19 from three in the first half. At one point they were four for 23 from three. They couldn't hit a shot for the perimeter. Everybody in the garden was like oh yeah well the Knicks are going to lose the stinks and just completely flipped around. You also had to be filthy rich even to get a nosebleed seat. Well that is true but the crowd here and once the crowd had something to cheer for I mean the second the Knicks made any shot like when it got to like 19 the crowd was going crazy but they just didn't have anything to cheer for for the longest time. And then all of a sudden it was like an avalanche and it just kept the snowball just kept going down the hill and the calves like oh there goes the snowball. Watch her roll down the hill. Oh it's a beautiful snowball. It really is. It's just watching it grow. Look at it pick up speed. It's really going now. It's coming really fast. Do you think we should get out of the way. Nah. All right well. I'm probably going to go around him like Brunson did. Oh man. Oh all right I am pleased to move on from that showing by the calves to discussing what you witnessed first hand on Monday night McMahon and that was the incredible performance of Victor Wembenyama including the shot heard around the world with his 32 footer there in the first overtime. And you know I I didn't under I didn't completely understand when we were doing the pod last night because we're doing it right after the game. One of the reasons I think Wembenyama took that shot was because there was about 29 seconds left on the clock when he took it which ensured that it would create a two for one. Which I think is one of the reasons why I took it so even if he missed it the Spurs would have had a chance to defend and have another chance. And that to me sort of personifies Victor Wembenyama that he would number one have the guts to take that shot number two have the air against to believe he would make it. Number three have the ability to make the shot and number four do it in a way that was strategic. I think sort of sums up the way that whole game played out and I'm sure that the mood in Oklahoma City after not using a playoff game for weeks is a little bit tense right now. Yeah. And the Thunder are familiar with this territory. It's not a comfortable situation but they are confident they lost the opener to the Nuggets last year came back in one game to one of one of seven game series same thing in the finals against the pastures. Both of those were heartbreaking losses Aaron Gordon hit the game one in three for the Nuggets Tyrese Halliburton hitting you know his millionth game winner of last season in the finals game one. So you know they've been here you know as as Mark Dagonall said one thing he loves about this team is their ability to problem solve. That was a great quote. I you know let's just put it this way. I was a little bit more impressed with that that tactic Kenny Atkinson's after this game. Sure. And and you know he loves his team's ability to problem solve especially throughout the course of a playoff series. Having said that it's a different kind of calculus geometry whatever damn math you want to bring up when you put Victor Wimba Nyama in the equation and he probably geometry is probably the best thing to say there. Probably problems that we've never seen in the NBA before. And look as phenomenal as he was on the offensive end and we can get into that. This game for the Thunder was lost when they had the ball. They didn't score enough points. They're not going to win games with Shago and seven of twenty three. But why did Shago seven of twenty three. What was the primary factor in that. It was Victor Wimba Nyama and they've got great point of attack defenders Dylan Harper is a dog. Stefan Castles a dog like they're throwing an extra body. I'm Sean Sweeney by the way the last tactician to send the Thunder home in a playoff series was Sean Sweeney with the Mavericks. Sean Sweeney did a hell of a job orchestrating that defense from the bench. You know give Miss Johnson his coaching staff their due credit. But when you've got this seven and a half foot guy with awesome mobility and unbelievable instincts where he can zone. Up basically and he can cover elbow down on both sides of the floor from three point line to three point line. He's like he's not a rim protector. He is a large chunk of the floor protector. Look at the block shot that he had on Shay's baseline step back midrange jumper over another defender. Yes. It's insane. A fade away jumper over a guy guard to give a Victor just goes I'm just going to block it. I'm just going to go over you over you both and block it. There's another one where Shay has the ball is like right down on the block on the other side of the floor. And Wimby didn't block it but Shay short armed because Wimby was there and that and that's a miss. And so you have you have shots blocked you had three of those you have shots altered. He had a lot of those and then you have shots that aren't even thought about because we ain't going in there. How many times do guys just dribble all the way through on the baseline? Yeah. Or probe and you know hit the brakes a U turn. Wimby is the most dominant defensive player we've ever seen and he had 41 points and 24 rebounds in his first conference finals game. And oh by the way played 49 minutes and the 49th minute was maybe his best. So kind of answer that question. You. Yeah. I mean like you said the thing that was amazing watching it was all the times where the the Thunder are probably the best team in the league at getting to the rim or best team in the league at getting to the rim. And whether it was Shay or there's AJ Mitchell who's great at it like all these guys who get in the paint and just be like nope turn right nope I'm going to turn left I'm going to do anything but shoot the ball where they would always just get to the rim make a lay up or get to the rim and hit a three foot floater because you've got this guy who's just standing like somewhere in the vicinity. That he could be 12 feet away from you and he can block your shot and he could totally change things. And I do think you saw it to me at least you were there McMahon. So I'm curious what you thought. It felt like the Thunder started to figure stuff out as the game went along. And I think it felt like when they had their best stretches Shay in particular in the fourth quarter. Like and Jalen Williams I thought was pretty good about it too. It was like everything was really direct and fast and like I'm making a hard decision and I'm getting to a spot and I'm rising up and shooting because if you give Victor even like a second to react to what you're doing. It's over. If you got no you got no chance then because he's just going to come from wherever he's at and stop you. I've got a good spirited discussion slash argument today with Aman Shumpert and Danny Green doing some TV with them. Two guys who are NBA champions and you know we're known for their wing defense. Yeah elite defensive players both of them. Yeah. And I was arguing and I know that you'll tell me if you think that I'm wrong. I was arguing that I don't think that the Thunder game plan against Wemba and Yama was flawed. Because if you look at the regulation now in the second overtime he was absolutely you know awesome and ended the game put put him in the dirt. At which end are you talking about the game plan. The Thunder's defensive game plan against Wemba and Yama which is to employ mostly wings. Yeah. And then have their big man whether it was Holmgren or Hartenstein or Jalen Williams be the secondary defender. But mostly it was Alex Caruso and Lou Dort and see if anybody else. And some Jalen Williams. J.W. In the 27 plays that Alex Caruso was the final defender on Victor Wemba and Yama in game one. The Spurs were 6 for 17. They were 1 for 9 on 3s. They had six turnovers. They had 0.72 points per play. I'd say that strategy was pretty good. I thought where they, to McMahon's point I thought where they failed was at the other end of the game or the other end of the court. Well I'm just saying what Danny and Shump were arguing that Chet has to be, has to step up and take the assignment. Well Chet has to just be a thousand times better than he was in game one because he was terrible in game one. And he has to just be much better. I can understand their argument. Chet is the primary guy. I think Wemba was 3 of 9 against him and you know you do the math. I don't know how to write in front of me but he was. 33 percent. There you go. Not that math. He was about 11 for, I'll look up his numbers right now. He was very efficient against everybody else. In regulation he was 9 of 19. Yeah. Well but some of those were more alone buckets where he's got three rebounds and a possession of finishing. Well I understand you're going to have to, if you're going to guard him with a wing you're going to have to accept he's going to get some offensive rebounds. You don't want him to get 9. Caruso is great at making it tough to get the ball, to catch the ball, to catch it where you want it. If Wemba catches it where he wants it against Caruso there's no hope or Jaylen Williams or Lutord. The whole thing they've got to do is push him off his spot. You know front him, deny him, there's help coming, all that kind of stuff. I didn't think it was a terrible defensive performance against Wemba despite the fact that he had 41 points. Despite the fact that starting with that 30 footer he outscored the Thunder 12 to 7 to close the game. I didn't think it was a terrible defensive performance against him. Again I think this game and the Thunder think this game was lost because they weren't able to generate offense and that gets back to they weren't able to get Wemba moving around. You have to make him move directions multiple times. Maybe you can catch him. If you're going to be driving you've got to be able to catch him in a gore-tot screen. You can't have him just able to roam and challenge at the rim. You've got to be able to catch him a split second late on a rotation like Shay did on that dunk in overtime. Which by the way he had that dunk in overtime and that was his only points in the last two overtimes. That's why you say Bontemps you think they figured something out in the fourth quarter. It didn't carry over. I'm sure there was some good feeling for him to watch but it didn't carry over in the other times. I mean I thought it carried over in the first overtime. I mean they had a chance to win the game and then didn't close it. But I mean I'm with you though. I thought they came in the game and they were in my opinion just way too passive going at Victor inside. And it was a lot of like we're going to zoom through the paint and not look at the rim. And so Victor could just stand there and look I understand like he's different than anybody we've ever seen. But like Victor was just standing there like this and like well we're not going to try that. And they just would go through and then they would like zoom in and then try to kick passes out. And because the Spurs defenders know Victor's there like Stefan Castle and Dylan Harper and these guys and Devavis Cell can all just stay with their guy and they don't have to collapse on anybody. And then it's just oh we're going to throw the ball right to somebody on the perimeter where a guy would typically be open for a three. That's what I mean. Like it felt like as the game went on they started to figure some of that stuff out. But I mean again you're like you said I mean he's the most dominant defensive force we've ever seen. He's like he's breaking the game like he's just breaking things that every like the whole history of the sport basically. There's all these things that if you typically do it's going to lead to success. And because he's just standing there on the court it's there's stuff that just isn't going to work against him. And it's it's going to be fascinating to see how they adjust and how they evolve because they will come up with new stuff. They'll try new they'll have different things they can do. They're a phenomenal team with great coaching and a ton of versatile talent. But this is as big a challenge as anybody has ever seen trying to score against this guy. And quite literally certainly yeah quite literally. And you know that that was I agree. I thought I was you. And I thought their defensive game plan against Victor largely was good. I guess that's good news and bad news because because he had 41. Yeah. Because like I said it was juiced by the last overtime. I'm not arguing that in the last overtime in the last overtime. Victor outlasted everybody and he had nine points in that overtime and he threw in the most minutes of his maybe of his career. Certainly of the speed. That is the other thing that I do really think is something to watch is playing every other day. And like we'll see if the Aaron Fox is back. But those five starters all played at least 44 minutes. Hey youngest starting lineup at a conference finals that we can track. They got wrestling and they well they do. But it's going to play in every other day for two weeks is going to be a challenge. And Luke Cornette really struggled in his minutes. I'm not sure how effective he's going to be in the series. Kelton Johnson I thought. And by the way, holding Hartenstein as early as they did was about getting him matched up with the Cornette minutes. Clearly they don't think Hartenstein's a great fit to match up against Wimby or they wouldn't have done that. Yep. But that was not like a reaction to the first two and a half minutes. That was you know game plan going in just to address that. So they were going to take him out two and a half minutes into the game. That's what Doug Dagonalt said. It's how they're going to start game two. Honestly, we'll probably find out 30 minutes before tip off. That's a good question. Do we think they're going to start two bigs in game two? We'll see. That's a good question. Well, I'm asking you, do you think they're going to start two bigs in game two? I don't. I'm not sure. Honestly, I wasn't sure they were going to start two bigs for game one. I thought they might leave AJ Mitchell in the starting lineup with. You did say that to me before the game. Dub at the four and kind of have just like this like super playmaking start in lineup. And that gets back to the Wimby dynamic when the Spurs are on defense of like you. To me, you have to have multiple playmakers on the floor against him because it's not going to be like this, this thing of Shay initiates at the top of the floor and just goes and creates it. No, dude, it's going to have to be drive and kick, drive and kick, multiple actions, all that kind of stuff. And, you know, and, and, and Shay, like the intimidation factory, he didn't use the word intimidation, but he said, you have to be smart and patient with Wimby, but you also have to be aggressive. And his exact phrase was don't be timid. You know, he said when they play a timid for a lot of the game, when you get caught worrying about it, like worrying about just him rejecting everything, he said, that's when the Spurs can put a stranglehold on the game. And so they've got to find that balance. You got to make him actually block the shot. You know, you can't, you can't give him a block. I mean, obviously I'm not saying you drive right at him when you're giving up a foot, but you know, you got to make him block the shot. You can't make him mentally block the shot, which you got to make him move. You got to make, if he's just able to kind of play, you know, in and out, avoiding three seconds in the paint, you're not scoring in the paint. You're not. No, it's going to look like when Jaylen Williams drive to Wimby, pin the thing and grab the rebound and went over and posed in front of the bench and had his little, you know, Kodak moment. Yes. But it was amazing. You got to get him moving and look out. I would say that was a put it in the Louvre moment. Yeah. That wasn't, that wasn't a shot. It was an iconic shot. I'm curious to see how much, if any more attention they pay to Alex Caruso, because the game plan all season long was live with Alex Caruso getting wide open threes. I think they'll continue to live with it. Well, during the regular season, he was five of 21 against his first, including two or 12 on Christmas when I think he missed the first 10. Yeah. He went eight of 14. I haven't updated since then, but going into that game in a thunder uniform, he was a 40.3 percent three point shooter in the playoffs. And he's not an awful shooter. I mean, he's not great, but he's not awful. And those were practice shots. Like they're like, if he, his flaw is a shooter, he's got a slow release. But, but if you have 20 feet, you'll get it off. Right. I mean, if they just give him those kind of shots and he's taken 14, I mean, he's, you should probably expect him to make four or five. I mean, I mean, you know, I make it eight is a lot. But like those were like practice in practice shots, not like game shots. Shay's seven to 23. And whatever fallout as a result that led to Shay being seven to 23, that's a trade off that San Antonio will probably accept. If Shay and Chet aren't better in game two and beyond in the series, then San Antonio is going to the finals. Like those two guys have to be a lot better. Nobody the first to say that. It's real simple. Shay got the MVP trophy, presented him pregame and Wimby sat right there on the bench and see. And Shay did not play up to that MVP standard and Wimby sent a message and he's got to, you know, this message has to be repeated. It's, you can't send it one time. You got to send it at least four in a series. Wimby sent a message that said, I told you this and a minute, I'm going to prove it to you. I'm the best to paraphrase or to quotes to Fonkassel, FN player in the world. And Shay's got the crown on his head. He's got two MVPs with a finals MVP sandwich in between. He's been the best player in the league for two years running. But Wimby is reaching down and trying to rip that crown off of Shay's head. And he's one fourth of the way there. We talked about Elijah on Robinson on Sunday. I had a game one that was Elijah on Robinson 2.0. And look, whether the Thunder win the series or not, Victor Wominjama is the best player on the planet. Now he showed that yesterday. I listen, the Thunder might win the series. Shay deserved to win MVP, but Victor is the best player. You saw that in game one. He's the most dominant force in the league right now. I know that about that. I think he's just the best player. And if, you know, if Shay can win the series, they go on to win the title. Doesn't mean that there's a, you know, Shay's incredible. But that performance was the beginning officially to me of the Victor era. And it started in game one. Now it was at least a seven or eight LOL game where I just started cracking up when he did something. I mean, it was all, yeah. Wait, he hits a 30 footer with a game in line. I crack up. I had some LOLs tonight watching Cavs play. I don't know if it's the same LOL. No, these are, these are pleasant LOL. All right. Well, more hoop collective podcast after this. Hey man, I heard you were distracted from your pickup game on Tuesday night. Ah, gotta be honest. Wasn't playing well. Didn't mind getting, you know, getting, getting to put it in Cavs, Parle and Spongebob. He was getting a little unlucky. It was a very unlucky pickup performance. We're going to go five. Hey, Jacob play. Yeah. He has a little, he got a little something. We're getting a rematch in San Antonio. I'm working on a, on a gym right now. Anyways, I'm still my, my record during these playoffs is five and three. Jay kids record with the Madriks is 205 and 205. And it's going to stick right there because, oh, he didn't get fired. It was the mutually agreed to part way. You know, that, that's the, the info way to announce these things, but look, let's just call it like it is. The Cavs didn't blow that lead tonight. They mutually agreed to part ways with it. They mutually agreed to lose the game. Both sides, both the Knicks and the Cavs agreed the Cavs would lose. So the Cavs said, sure, that'd be great. So as soon as Messiah, you jury got hired by the Madriks, you knew this was a distinct possibility because coming out of the draft combine in Chicago last week, it was a growing discussion. There was widespread anticipation. Good job. Well, I was unable to get enough confirmation to beat their press release, but this was not a shock. And all it really, all you had to do was watch Messiah's year. He's press conference. He was asked straight up if Jake Kidd was going to be the coach. And he said, we're going to evaluate everything from head to toe. Also, Jason Kidd was not aware of Messiah's year. He was being hired. That was a bad sign. After Jake Kidd, by the way, tried to move up to the front office and become the president of basketball operations. Now bad sign one. Yeah. Jake Kidd knew months in advance that wasn't going to happen. It's not like he was surprised. He didn't get the job. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, McMahon. Bad sign part one. Ready? Jake, Jason Kidd was not aware that Messiah's year he was being hired to be the team president. Pretty, pretty bad sign. Bad sign number two. Maybe not at all of them, but I heard that when the Mavericks had meetings with potential draft picks last week in Chicago, that Jason Kidd wasn't always in the room. I would say that's not a great sign. Considering they have a lottery pick and it's, you know, pretty important. To me, this all goes back to not the head-to-toe comment from Messiah at his press conference, but when Messiah talked about the Luka Dodgers trade, what did he say about the Luka Dodgers trade? That is now in the past. We are done talking about the Luka Dodgers trade and we are looking forward as an organization and we're moving past it. And I would say what they're trying to do is clean house of anybody who had any level of involvement in that. That's what I was getting to. Like this is Messiah Geary is in charge. He is there. He is a huge personality. He's a fresh face. And he is completely starting over with the maps. Clean slate is the messaging from the Mavericks. 100%. And that's what this is. We've got Cooper Flag. We're going to have another, you got the ninth pick in this draft. They're going to get another really interesting young player in the draft. See what they do with Kyrie Irving, whether they trade him or not. So you think Derek Lively healthy, you know, they're, they're moving forward, build around Cooper Flag and it's forward looking and forward facing. And we're not thinking about the Luka trade anymore. And I associate with, I mean, they are, but I, but I'm seeing that's what this is about is trying to move past the Luka. That's right. We're getting past all this stuff. And like if Jason Kidd was still coaching the team, you'd still be thinking about the Luka trade like that. It's just, it'd be part of the whole thing. And it's now it's all about what's going on with Cooper, where are the Mavs going from here? And, you know, it will be interesting to see what Messiah, Jerry does in terms of hiring a coach to me. I know he was there the past few years before this year, but I'll be going down I 35 and I'll be getting Sean Sweeney and I'll be having to come back up by 35 to Dallas and that'd be the end of my swing. He is lead associate head coach. Associate head coach of the Spurs. Yeah. And I did check. Listen, the Messiah is definitely trying to be very buttoned up and tight lipped. I did inquire with a source who familiar with his thinking. And I said, Hey, would Sean Sweeney's connection with J Kidd eliminate him as a candidate? Cause Sean Sweeney was J kids, right hand man in Brooklyn, in Milwaukee, and then in Dallas. And, and I was told, no, that, that wouldn't eliminate him as a candidate. Like they would consider him as an individual and not a, you know, not as J kids, uh, right hand man. If it comes to that, I, I don't have at this point a list of candidates. I would say a couple of things. There is like, there's, there's rumors flying around and I'm not going to say there's like a big name college coach is being rumored. Messiah's track record is not necessarily swinging for big names. It's trying to find the next great coach. You know, he likes discoveries. Well, that's what, you know, when he hired Nick, he's hired two coaches. He's hired Nick Nurse and he's hired Darko Ryakovich. Those are the two coaches he's hired. Right. And with Darko, the other guys, like some other candidates there were Charles Lee, who is now a first time head coach at Charlotte. It's doing a really good job. Miss Johnson is now a first time head coach at San Antonio is doing a really good job trying to think who else were the, the final, but you know, there were, there wasn't a bunch of like big name coaches is my point. Now, I don't know which direction Messiah is going to go. Patrick Dumont, his M.O. is the exact opposite. Let me get the biggest, most proven name with the best resume possible. Rick Welts as a CEO, Messiah Ujiri. Uh, but this is going to be Messiah's search. Uh, Mike Schmitz, our former colleague who's now the Magics GM will, will, you know, be part of that process. Uh, you know, and then, you know, Dumont will be kind of kept the breast of things, but really not directly involved until they get it down to the last, you know, batch of finalists. Well, like I said, to me, this should be a very easy search. Like John Sweeney is the top assistant in the league. He's familiar with the franchise. I, you'd look at what he's doing with the Spurs. Like he's exactly what they need. So, you know, I, we'll see what they do. I mean, Messiah knows what he's doing, but to me, but Swinney would also fit. Yes. You know, he would fit that track record from Messiah. Let me go find a, a really sharp assistant coach who's the next great coach, not necessarily a guy who's got, you know, some long track record as a head coach. So, so we'll see. I do think, you know, the, the Sweeney's, those types of guys will be part of the search, but where exactly it lands, you know, that I couldn't tell you. And by the way, this was like, J. Kid obviously was the headliner. There were a lot of people who mutually agreed to part ways with the Madvix today. You know, Matt Ricardi, who's an interim GM is, is out. Michael Finley is a TBD, just as a, by the way, but a bunch of scouts, assistant coaches, you know, analytics guys, like Messiah's Uri inherited the situation when there's Donnie Nelson leftovers, there's Nico Harrison leftovers. And he's going to run his own basketball operations department. And he's in the process of, uh, he's in the tear down process before he puts it together. Well, the Mavericks mutually agreed to continue with Cooper Flag. Oh, that's good. That's a good idea. I would do that too. That's a key factor in the Mavericks situation. I think that's a key factor. Typically when you fire a coach who's had success and I, you know, these last two seasons, I don't know how much you assign it to kid because after Luca and then you had the injuries to AD and Kyrie, they tanked. And then this year they tanked. So, you know, I don't know how much of those 205 wins and losses were fair. Um, but typically when you fire a coach who's had success and kid took them to the finals, you have a pretty good idea of who you're going to hire because you don't want egg on your face. In this scenario, uh, because there's a new GM, the standard is different. So I would expect that there would be a very desirable job because of the presence of Cooper Flag. Absolutely. So it's not like they're going to have trouble hiring somebody. And by the way, I give credit to Patrick Jumat because that as the band has reported, Jason kid had a contract, I believe through 2030 and was owed north of $40 million. And that's a lot of money to eat on it, especially when you extended him a year ago to keep him from going to the Knicks and earned after turning him down from being able to go to the Knicks. And you got two extensions from Patrick Jumat. One during the finals run and then again, last year. So for Messiah Jerry to go to Patrick Jumat and say, Hey, listen, I want to make a coaching change. There are not many owners that would say I'm going to eat $40 plus million. They would say, Hey, give this a year and see how it goes first because I don't want to pay that much money. So full credit to them for hiring Messiah Jerry and saying, Hey, you're going to run the team and we're going to let you do it how you'd want to do it. And if that means we've got to spend a lot of money, then so be it. And what I would say is Messiah didn't necessarily go to Demont and say, Hey, I want to make a change. Patrick Jumat hired Messiah Jerry and said, Listen, don't worry about the money with J kid. If you want to move on from him, you're fully authorized to make that decision. Right. Well, the Adelson family owns the Mavericks has it. They do have it. So round of hair. All right. So for the first time, guys, in history, both conference finals, game ones went over time. So hopefully this is the beginning of two excellent playoff series that provide high level basketball, although not about that's court quarter for the Cavs, but high level basketball and high level entertainment. But you couldn't have asked for anything more over the last two nights. It's pretty good. Pretty good stuff. I was waiting for McMahon to say something, but he didn't. You never waited for me to say something in your life. No, relax. All right. Thank you so much to our producers. Mark Miles and Jackson. Thank you to McMahon and Bontem. Thank you for listening and watching the Hoop Collective. We'll be talking to you later this week after Cavs, Knicks, Game 2. Adios amigos.