Lucy Guo’s Billionaire Playbook: Startup Secrets, Hidden Money Rules, and the Power of FOMO

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0:58

I recently snuck off to Cabo with my husband for a quick beach reset. We sat in the sun, drank margaritas and did absolutely nothing. For the first time in almost a year, my shoulders dropp jaw unclenched.

1:18

I'd love to do it again.

1:30

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1:32

You think some of this changed? Obviously. Youngest female self made billionaire headlines everywhere.

3:11

I would actually say no. I think it really changed when I learned to become very confident in myself.

3:19

You've heard the Wall street lore. The college dropout made a big intact. The founder who left attack unicorn and built. But Lucy Guo has lived the lore. She's a college dropout who co founded the Unicorn scale AI. Now she's running passes. Today she tells me about the wildest, scrappiest money stories you will ever hear.

3:24

He took my laptop. I sprinted outdoor.

3:44

Damn girl.

3:46

Yeah. And I caught him like, I would say like a mile, mile and a half in.

3:47

And then what happened?

3:50

I just like lunged myself at his backpack and tackled him.

3:51

Money tips she learned after becoming a billionaire.

3:55

So what a lot of people do. I could then take out a loan against my shares and then I'll be able to take out a loan at a very cheap price and then be able to make money off of that and never pay taxes. And then as those assets grow, continue to take out loans and what it's.

3:58

Really like to work hard and play hard. I have an ex who closed a lot of deals at strip clubs and I always wondered like if there was an equivalent for women closing deals.

4:12

I have like done diligence on companies at Constance and Raves.

4:23

You are going to love this episode with Lucy Quill. I'm Nicole Lapvin, the only financial expert. You don't need a dictionary to understand it's time for some Money rehab. Lucy grow. Welcome to Money Rehab.

4:28

Thank you for having me.

4:48

Oh my God. You look incredible.

4:49

This is My DJ outfit.

4:51

So I think that hanging out with you now is going to give me some cool points. I don't know.

4:52

I. I mean, you seem very cool to me.

4:56

Thank you. Thank you so much. It's nerd cool, but I'll take it for sure. And you said that right after this, you're going to Barry's.

4:58

What?

5:06

You're.

5:06

Oh, no, no. I do Barry's at 6 and 7am I just.

5:06

And 7.

5:09

Yes, I do 6 and 7am Every day. But I was just like, you know, I Woke up at 5:55. I was a little groggy. I was like, I'm just going to pull the first thing I see DJ outfit. So here we are.

5:09

I love it. We haven't had this much sparkles on the show, but never forget your first. I did Barry's yesterday morning in your honor, by the way. I'm not like the. The number one Berries champion of the world, but, you know, when I show up, like, I do feel better.

5:19

Yeah, I think it's all about the effort you put in, right? Like, as long as you put an effort, you're gonna get that serotonin release and you're gonna feel good because you tackle the challenge that day.

5:36

I mean, I had a baby last year, so, like, thinking about vulnerability that Brene Brown talks about, it's not like live streaming your bikini wax. It's like showing up postpartum to Barry's is, like, was a very vulnerable thing.

5:43

Like, most badass people at Barry's are always the preg in. Like, I stare at them and I'm like, oh, my God, you're, like, pregnant, and you're literally kicking ass.

5:55

I love it. Okay, so you are all over the place, from double hitters at Barry's to all the podcasts to all the conferences to all the things. Do you feel like you still work as hard as you did, hustled as hard as you did from before you were successful?

6:02

I would say so. My routine hasn't changed at all. Like, I think I've always believed in the power of routine and, like, you know, waking up early in the morning to work out, to get your day started. And I think that, like, there was at some point in time where I let go of that routine and I felt like I wasn't working as hard because I wasn't getting as many hours in a day. But I'm back on that routine. Right? And that was how I lived when I was first trying to build companies. And that's how I live right now. Where Every single day I'll wake up between like 5:30 and 5:50 and then I'll get up, go to Barry's, do two double workouts, and then just go straight to the office and work.

6:19

I mean, even take me back to childhood, right? You grew up in an immigrant family like I did. I feel like there's a different mentality around needing to make money or the strive to make money. So you've always talked about the idea that making money was a goal for you, even back to like neopets days. Where did that come from? From your parents?

6:51

I had Chinese immigrant parents, so they always emphasized the importance of education and money. But education was to make money, which is why in Asian culture everyone jokes that like, oh, like my parents want me to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or else I'm a failure at life because those are three well known jobs to make money. I think where I like wanted to make money really young though was the fact that like I was bull in school. I never had like the coolest clothes or like the cool toys, et cetera. And these are things that I wanted to get that I, my parents wouldn't get for me. So I figured out how to make money on the Internet so I could get these things myself.

7:09

It's crazy because I have a very, very similar story. I've actually never heard anyone else talk about it, but when I was growing up, I was also bullied for like wearing fake Doc Martens and they were called like Nurse Martens because, you know, like, I couldn't afford it.

7:40

I remember like on the playground someone told me like, hey, like if you wore Abercrombie and you'd be considered cool, but like, and like maybe we'd be friends with you, but you're wearing like Aeropostale. In my head. Aeropostal is this like expensive brand, right? So I was just like, wow, I splurged on this and you don't like this.

7:55

That hurts.

8:10

I mean, and look at you now.

8:12

Well, I mean, this is actually really cheap. This I got in Mexico. Yeah, also true.

8:13

So how do you feel like that has stuck with you? Because even like today I've done, you know, a lot of things that people would find impressive. You have done all the things that people find impressive. But like somehow the bullies from high school like still get to me. Like I can talk to anybody. Except sometimes when I hear like these girls names from middle school come up, I'm like viscerally upset by it in a way that.

8:19

Oh wow, that actually surprises me because I think I'm the exact opposite. Where now I'm just, like, so happy and so confident and so grateful. Right. Like, every single day, I just, like, I'm thankful that my life is how it is. And I also think, like, my mentality has shifted a lot to where when, like, bad things happen to me, I just think it's a lesson that I need to learn. I'm like, okay, like, this sucks, but I am just going to take this as a lesson, look at the warning signs, and I almost, like, postmortem everything in my life, I guess. So I'm like, okay. And then, like, this isn't going to happen the next time, because these are going to be the preventative measures.

8:45

I need to adopt that. How did you get this really healthy mentality?

9:18

I think, like, at some point, I just became really happy, and I was like, okay. Like, I have this, like, support system around me. Like, I have the best friends in the world who I would do anything for, and they would do anything for me. And I think that hatefulness really does stem from jealousy at the end of the day. Like, there's no other real reason to think about someone and just be, like, so angry at them. It could be someone with, like, a nasty personality, but, like, you might still be jealous about, like, what they have. Right? So, yeah, I'm just like, whatever. Like, haters are always gonna be haters. And, like, you're doing something right if you have haters.

9:22

Yeah. I mean, comparison is the thief of joy. And it's also the idea of, like, taking poison and hoping the other person will die, because really, it's like, poison yourself. Some of this changed, obviously. Youngest female self made billionaire headlines everywhere.

9:53

I would actually say no. I think it really changed when I learned to become very confident in myself. And this actually happened back in. When I. During COVID I moved to Miami. And I guess I was always, like, a little bit bullied within friend groups before Miami. And Miami was the first place where I received, like, this extreme, like, selfless love. I can't really explain it. I think it, like, started a new era for me. And I think also, like, as my. Yeah. As, like, my confidence grew and, like, the energy around me was more positive, I was able to just start blocking out all, like, negative energy.

10:09

Why Miami? Oh, I got bored during COVID No. So not a tax situation.

10:43

Not a tax situation. I actually. I am paying, like, I obviously have my liquidation event, like, last year. Right. And I'm paying, like, all my California taxes. Yeah. I had the opportunity to escape but at the end day, I'm like, I think it's worth paying the taxes to be somewhere that, like, you need to be. Whether it's because it makes you happiest or, like, whether it's professionally.

10:47

Right, The Sunshine Tax.

11:04

Yeah, yeah, it's a sunshine tax when.

11:05

You surpass a certain net worth. Did you feel like that added confidence or had nothing to do with it?

11:07

No, it didn't have anything to do with it. I was not really liquid until like quite literally last year, like a few months ago. But I feel like, felt this, like, I would say I turned much happier, literally in Miami, which is 2020.

11:13

Love that. Yeah. You guys, like, field trip to Miami. Let's go. Was it weird, like, when that headline became public?

11:26

I wouldn't say it was weird. I would say I expected it, but it didn't mean anything to me because for me, I'm like, okay, like, this title is going to be taken over. Like, it's whatever. It's not liquid. At least it wasn't at the moment. I believe that, like, with anything illiquid, things can go to zero. Right? So I was like, it's all paper money. But I would say, like, it opened doors, like, new opportunities. I suddenly had a lot of dms from famous people.

11:33

Like who? I can't say, but, like, in a sexy way or, like, in a business way, Because I get. I don't get any sexy dms. I'm sure you're not shocked, but, like, I get business type DMs. You want to invest or that stuff.

11:58

I would say, obviously, mix of both. The ones I was obviously excited about were probably just like old celebrity crushes. Yeah.

12:10

Okay. Okay. I might. My imagination is running wild. And with these superlatives that we hear around, like, youngest billionaire on all of this. How do you feel about the youngest component of it? Because I had that early in my career, I was like the youngest anchor on CNN or cnbc. And then I wasn't. It felt like a weird shift for me. Like that moniker. How do you think about that?

12:17

I think about it is just. It gives people hope maybe that they will achieve it one day. But like, in reality, like, you're gonna have to title for like a few months and then someone else gonna stake it. Right. I think someone el Take it. The Couchy co founder. She's like, so cool.

12:40

Yes.

12:52

Won't let me invest in a round because it's close. But so cool.

12:52

But you tried.

12:56

Oh, I totally DM'd her. And I was like, hey, like, is the round closed. The answer was us. But in the moment, right? Because I think every single person is different. So when they see someone that like, looks like them, grew up in the same, like, lifestyle as them, etc, they get hope. Like the Kelsey co founder is very different than me. Like she was, I think, an immigrant. Yeah, yeah. And like, that's just so different. But like, other people will like, relate more to her than they relate to me and get that hope. And I think that like, as new people get this title every few months, it just gives more of the world hope. And then like, hope drives a lot of like, people right. Like, they work harder. Because if you don't have hope, like, why are you on this planet doing anything?

12:57

It's really interesting that you say that because I know that you've talked about not being a role model or not considering yourself a role model, but it sounds like you do know that you give other people hope.

13:35

I know I give other people hope. Like, I'm not sure if I'm a role model, but like, I give other people hope. And I always try to like, give my advice in the blunt way possible and like, I like giving back that way. Yeah.

13:44

I think when people, you know, see those types of headlines, they assume that you have like billion dollars in your bank account. So for people that don't understand, like the liquid, not liquid thing, can you explain? Because, you know, we talk about the idea don't mourn paper losses or don't rejoice paper gains, but you really live by that, which is.

13:55

Yeah, so I, I guess the best way to explain it for people is if you start a company, right, and it becomes worth, let's say like $2 billion and you own 50% of it. That $2 billion is dictated by like whoever invested in it. But it's not really actually like $2 billion. Like one person could decide, oh, it's $2 billion, I'm going to give you this valuation when it could really in reality be worth zero. And there's actually a lot of investors are just, you know, stupid, and they'll invest, let's call it 200,000, at like multibillion dollar valuation. The founder could literally say, like, oh, now my company is worth $1 billion, even though there's like 200,000 in the bank. I think another, like, maybe easier to understand example is let's say your family gifted you a bunch of Picassos and suddenly you have like billions of dollars in art, but, like you still have $0 in your bank account. And like, are you going to be able to sell this Picasso's like, you don't know how much you're going to sell it, when you're going to be sell it, etc. So there's a very different, like, it's very different when you have like money and things versus actual cash.

14:13

Were people hitting you up for money after that? Because they didn't realize?

15:10

I mean, I would say people have been hitting me up for money even before I had like a dollar.

15:15

Really?

15:20

But yes, a lot of people hit me up for money constantly.

15:20

And do you, do you lend people money?

15:23

I don't lend people money. No. That's like a big no no for me.

15:26

Oh, interesting.

15:29

Yeah.

15:29

Or like friends or sometimes when friends ask me for money, I give it to them and I just think of it as a gift. Like I write it off.

15:30

Yeah. I would say like if a friend was like homeless. Right. Like, what I prefer to do, which actually just recently happened, is I'm like, oh, here's like a room, my house. You can stay here however long you want. Right. But. But if someone asks for, I guess, money, I usually ask for something in return just because I think it's principle whether it's like, oh, will you like be my PA for a week, then exchange for, let's call this $5,000.

15:36

I've actually done that too with a friend. I gave her sort of like a token job. And I think that gives people a sense of worth too.

16:03

Exactly.

16:10

Around it versus just charity.

16:11

Because you never really want people expecting free things from you. And I do think that like you for the most part can expect the money is never paid off. I've only loaned one friend money ever. And it's because, I mean, he comes from a very wealthy family and he makes a lot of money. Just like in his line of business, it's, you know, you, you need to reinvest it. All Right. So he's always pay me back early and gives me a large percentage on top of the money that I loan him.

16:12

Okay, so you're like a bang.

16:40

Yeah.

16:41

He just needed like cash flow, it sounds like.

16:42

Yeah, exactly.

16:44

It was more of like a business transaction. But yeah. People say decide you want more the friend or the money if you loan.

16:44

Yes, money.

16:51

So did you have a bad experience? Just you're just really cautious.

16:51

I would say I have gotten scammed by a friend. It was more of an acquaintance friend. But it was like almost structured like an investment, but the investment was in a document as a loan. But he pretended to run this like meme coin crypto fund and showed returns. He showed me a cold wallet with, like, millions of dollars saying that, like, if he lost the money, meme points, he would back it with that. Turns out he stole someone's cold wallet, so. Yeah.

16:54

What?

17:22

Yeah.

17:23

So did you give him money?

17:23

I did give him money. Yeah. No, it's a whole FBI case now.

17:24

Oh, damn.

17:27

Yeah.

17:28

I'm so sorry.

17:28

Oh, it's all good.

17:29

It makes total sense.

17:30

Yeah. I feel lucky because I didn't give him my net worth. Right. But there are a lot of people, like, childhood friends. I've known him since they were like three years old, five years old, that gave him, like, their net worth. And like. Like, that's much worse.

17:31

Like, they gave him all their.

17:43

Yes.

17:45

Dude. Do you think you have a lot more people hitting you up for investments?

17:46

I do have a lot of people hitting me up for investments. I think I need to stay disciplined, obviously, to make good investments. And my thesis with investing has always been invest in the best engineers when I go early stage. So, like, my hypothesis, just, like, they can live off of ramen until they give up essentially, because otherwise, like, engineers don't need to hire other people. You can continue pivoting different ideas when like, I actually just had Investment Exit where he tried ideas for a decade. It failed after failed, after failed, never gave up. Just like, you know, lived inside or apartment in Oakland on a couch, like, eating junk food. And he just sold his company to anthropic. So decent return for me. I'm pretty happy. Yeah. And I'm very happy for him. And I think that's just like, I've had so many investments go that way where it looks like a dead company and then the founder never gives up, Strikes gold old.

17:51

But you see that because you know what that's like.

18:39

Exactly.

18:41

Like a scrappy engineer.

18:42

Exactly. Yeah.

18:43

Do you have an idea of an amount like a fund, or you're just sort of ad hoc?

18:44

So I have been doing it with personal money. That being said, happened like a week ago, but I had NLP interested. Slash, it's just moving along. So it's probably gonna be closed by next week. So I'm starting a new fund, knowing you. 250 million dollar fund. Yeah. Let's go.

18:49

Hell yeah, Lucy, let's go. And proven founders, too. Get a lot more cred and get a lot more money. Like, it sounds like you were raising for your next company and just sent a bunch of texts, which you probably couldn't have done before you. Exactly successful.

19:05

Yes. So that was just. I mean, that was just a blessing. I was like, okay, great. Because I was a little bit nervous. I was running a fund and I was like, oh my God, all right. Like my LP is going to be mad that I'm starting a new company. So the first thing I did was allow my LPs to invest before letting other investors in. And I. It was a whole mess. It was way over subscribed. I think it was raising like 2 million, ended up being 9 million.

19:21

Very high cost problems.

19:42

Yeah, yeah.

19:43

If someone's watching and they have an idea that fits this thesis, how can they pitch you?

19:45

They could just email me at like Lucy passes.com or actually I have a new one. Lucy Critical Mass VC?

19:51

Is that what it's called?

19:56

Yeah, we're calling a VC as of now. I mean we came up with that name like, like when I say literally this all happened within the span of a week, I was like, well I.

19:57

Mean what can she not do? One or two LPs. Can they slip into your DMs?

20:06

Yeah, they slip into my DMs. I actually read them and like just send me like a doc send. I like reading about the founder too. So like a LinkedIn and then a doc send is nice.

20:11

Good to know. And AI doesn't have to be AI.

20:19

It doesn't have to be AI. But like I like seeing how a founder like uses AI in their daily lives to make like running their company more efficient.

20:23

And what do you think is the thing that's going to gain most traction within AI? Because like five years ago if you had AI anything, I mean you were doing AI before, it was cool, but people would invest more because it was like the buzzy thing. I think now potentially prediction markets is like, you know, the buzzword for investors. But where do you think there's like specific residents, agentic AI or what?

20:31

Yeah. So I think at the moment boring industries that are implementing AI to be more efficient are going to be the like big killers. AI is extremely good at like repe tasks and like analyzing like long form documents, for example. So I think that like Harvey AI legal, it's a huge, huge market. I think that AI is better at like doctors or radiologists at like you know, looking at images and detecting cancer, et cetera. These tasks that like require like extreme memory, extreme computer vision, like just analysis. The more data, like if you enter an industry where there's tons of data you can just pour into the software or into a model to learn from, you can 10x efficiency. Right. I think that that where it's going to improve is probably industries I'm not even thinking of because I'm unaware of, like, how the industry works, but, like, very old industry.

20:54

Yeah, the boring.

21:41

Yeah, the boring.

21:42

Boring. Yeah.

21:43

Better. Yeah.

21:44

And when you worked on the other side by taking money from investors, did you ever have, like, a weird experience that you want to do differently now that you are an investor?

21:45

Honestly, my fundraising strategy has always been the same as, like, you know, a founder, which is cause fomo, and then through that fomo, like, jack up the price of the valuation.

21:56

I see.

22:09

So. Cause from, like, make them want, like, be like, this is a rocket ship. Like, if you're not on this rocket ship, you're missing out, kind of.

22:09

But, like, also just plant seeds without telling who you're talking to. So say like, oh, yeah. Like, I would rather be like, oh, yeah, I'm going to Sand Hill Road, I have a few meetings. So, like, this day at this time works. Because then they're like, oh, crap. Like, who is she talking to? Sand Hill Road has all the best VCs. Like, this is going to be a killer deal. I need to move fast. Right. Like, that causes fomo, even if you're not going. So I try to time, like all my meetings around the same time. So then I get multiple term sheets at the same time and then make those term sheets bid against each other.

22:17

How did you learn that? Because it's an art. Like, there are some people that are really good at fundraising and then there are people that are really good at the sort of this 3D chess of, like, playing people off each other.

22:45

I think it's a lot of psychology. So, you know, there's like a Kickstarter method where when, like 80% of like, the Kickstarter is filled, like, it's going to get oversubscribed. People have, like a fear of missing out. So I like the best advice I always give founders is start at a lower valuation. Say you're raising less than you want to raise. So if you're trying to raise 2 million, so you're raising 1 to 1.5. Right. Because then you could say, oh, like, there's barely any left, it's oversubscribed. And then for like the next, like, call it 500K to, like, let's say you bump it to 3 million. So 1.5 million that you try to raise, you can jack up the valuation, which a lot of people do.

22:55

Like, it's better to beat low expectations.

23:30

Yep. Because, like, if you, like, tell, like, like, if I tell you like, hey, I'm raising 1.5 million. Like, a whole million is taken already. You're like, oh, shit. Like, I don't have much allocation left, but if I'm telling you I'm raising 2 million, I have 1 million raised. It's like, oh, you're. I'm not even at like, 50. I'm at 50. Right. It's not that great.

23:32

Totally. This is like what happened in real estate a few years ago, especially in la. People would put their homes on the market for like, one lower.

23:49

Yeah, exactly.

23:57

Something, and it becomes a bit more. Yeah, exactly.

23:57

Yeah. But I think that's why you want to give like a facade of like, I don't need the money. Right. That makes people more confident that you will make them a lot of money. I know. Yeah.

24:00

It's so hard, though.

24:08

That's Kickstarter method, because you don't need the money when you. But you do need the money.

24:09

Yeah. I mean, are there any other psychology tricks that you would give founders?

24:12

I would say psychology group. So, like, I always try to pitch VCs that I'm not interested in first before I move on to VCs I am interested in just to, like, get all the questions out of the way. So, like, I can give, like a much more complete, like, data room, for example, towards the end. And then they're impressed because they're like, oh, wow, like, you've really been diligent about creating this. And, like, you have all the data I need. I don't have to ask you for more data. So you just want to polish up your presentation for, I would say, like, tier one VCs. So do that. And then another thing, I guess if I were a founder raising like a seed round or even maybe a series A, the Kickstarter works especially well when you're going after micro funds or angel investors, because angel investors and microfunds do a lot less diligence, like, a lot of times, like, microfunds. So I would call this like a fund size of any thing below. Let's call like $50 million. They don't really due diligence. Like, they'll make a decision, write a check in one day versus these, like, more institutional VCs. Like, it's their job to do a bunch of diligence. Right. So they are like, they may take two weeks before they wire you the money because they're making sure everything is, like, crisscrossed.

24:18

Yeah. So it sounds like get your wiggles out. Kind of like comedians do at smaller clubs. And they Sort of test out their material before hitting like. Yep, the Comedy Store.

25:23

Yeah.

25:32

Or whatever. Now that you're in, I don't know, is it like billionaires club or like successful people club or I don't know how you would call it, but like now that you're. You're there, are there any financial truths that have been gate kept by the rich?

25:32

I mean, I wouldn't call it gate kept. I feel like this is just like something people like, know. Right. But like, obviously if you take loans out against your assets, you never really have to pay taxes. So what a lot of people do. And I would just like to clarify, I was not able to do this because my, like my company got bought, right. So then I got a cash payout. And with that cash payout I actually have to pay taxes on. But let's say it never got bought and it just entered the stock market, Right. Like it went public. I could then take out a loan against my shares and then I would be able to take out a loan at a very cheap price. Probably just like sofr, which on average.

25:49

Overnight lending.

26:24

Yeah, overnight lending, super cheap price. Probably like on average, like, I don't know, like 3 to 5%. And then be able to make money off of that and never pay taxes. And then as those assets grow, continue to take out loans. So that's what a lot of people do. I mean, like, it's kind of brilliant.

26:25

But yeah, we've done a lot of videos and shows about this idea. I found out about it, you know, the more successful I became because I used to think, you know, when I had credit card debt when I was growing up and like being immigrant's daughter, like, I didn't understand sort of this space. It was like, you don't have cash to buy the house, you don't buy the house. Like you don't buy the car, you don't buy the thing. And I always thought debt was a bad word. But then the more successful I became, I realized that rich people use debt as leverage. So let's explain this. So you have a portfolio, let's say $1 million. Instead of pulling out, you know, 200K to put a down payment on a house, you know, rich people will like borrow against that portfolio so they don't sell, they don't realize capital gains. And then they use that debt and they pay the.

26:40

We could do it that way. I would say with real estate, almost everyone does it with like an actual mortgage. But yeah, like, if you like had. This is actually a really good example so like, let's say you had a bunch in the stock market right now and then you were able to take out against all your assets. Like let's call your home assets, your art assets, etc. Like take out out. Let's call like 50 million safely. Because like you, you won't get margin called on 50 million with like how much you own. You can put that 50 million into a private stock company, like Anthropic, where you know, within like a five year time span is probably gonna like 3x. And then you're paying very, very little interest on a city meal. And then when it 3x's you not only get to like write off the interest, but you get yay the profits. Yeah. And then you can pay back the loan and call it a day.

27:29

I heard that somebody tried to, to rob you, right? Or break into your house. What happened?

28:14

Oh, yeah.

28:20

Target on your back.

28:21

Yeah, so now I have a lot of armed security, but back then I didn't. And what had happened was I was in Vegas and I just posted real time, like, oh, I'm on my way to Vegas. So someone knew I wasn't home and then they came to my house and they broke the glass window and then tried to rob me. But my friend was home and. And yeah, he scared him off.

28:22

Oh my God.

28:43

Yeah.

28:44

And I mean, you, you have an amazing person here with you today. But, like, you're not rolling super deep with like armed guards right now. Do you, do you have like, bodyguards?

28:44

Yeah, so actually I had an A list actress ask me this the other day and I was just like, I think the difference between me and you is that, like, you get paparazzi and followed and like, recognized. Right. No one cares about tech billionaires. Like, I don't think Mark Zuckerberg's getting paparazzi. And if he is, I'm sorry, Mark, like Rya Chesky. I'm pretty sure he lives in la. No one's following him around. You never see him on the news. And these people are like, much, much wealthier than me. And I do think it's just like a. Oh. Like we're tech people or tech nerds. Like, no one cares about us. Which is great because I don't feel the need to like, walk around with a bodyguard. I actually think that makes you more noticeable. The best bodyguards are ones that are like, more incognito. Like, I look like a friend or like short, tiny. They dress in like normal clothes situation.

28:57

Scare you? Like, are you worried about safety? And I'm not Worried about safety because.

29:38

Like, at that day, if I get robbed, like, what's going to. I don't really have that many nice things. You could rob me and, like, you're gonna be sorely disappointed. I don't have expensive art. Like, all my really nice stuff is, like, locked up in, like, a bank vault. Like, you just. I have nothing. Your computer do have my computer. Yes. I have had my computer stolen once at Starbucks. That sucks.

29:43

But now I'm assuming. I mean, you're. You forget more than I will ever know. But sharing, it's all backed up and everything.

30:01

Yeah, well, I mean, I got my laptop back. I chased a guy.

30:08

Stop.

30:11

Yeah.

30:11

Like, you ran after them.

30:12

Yeah, it was a really stupid decision. Like, thinking, like, looking back, I was like, oh, he could have had a second guy. And, like, they could have punched me or whatever. But, like, I just had like. Like it wasn't the laptop itself. It was just like, everything on my laptop that I needed. Like, all my work. So I'd actually just done two Barry's classes that day, and I was at Starbucks just working. And then, like, I. He took my laptop. I sprinted out the door.

30:13

Damn, girl.

30:33

Yeah. And I caught him, like, I would say like a mile, mile and a half in.

30:34

So he was sprinting and you were sprinting after him?

30:37

Yeah.

30:40

And then what happened?

30:40

I just, like, lunged myself at his backpack and tackled him.

30:41

God, Lucy.

30:44

That'S insane. I mean, let's go back to some of those days. The scrappy, wild days of Vegas. You've done some pretty unhinged things to get by. Tell me about eating for free.

30:47

Well, there's a few things I did to eat for free. So I would say, like, yes, I lived in Vegas and I would just go to the lounge, you know, I would book a Southwest ticket and then. Then, you know, check in, get in, cancel a ticket because it's fully refundable, and then go eat. But like, I've also done other things. Like, you know, they're like. It was a running joke that tech company, like, you could get free food through, like, VC funded tech apps. So I find like, all the, like, you know, new food apps that VCs were funding, and I would just post my referral code on different, like, coupon websites, and then people would use it because everyone's looking for a discount, right? And then I would just rack up like, literally thousands of dollars in. In free referral coupon, like free credits, and then just eat for free.

31:01

I mean, you've talked about being a really big believer of the fire movement. Do you still want to retire early?

31:38

Oh no, not at all. I tried retiring. It's so boring.

31:45

You're never retiring.

31:48

I don't think I'm ever retiring. Like I can see myself doing different things. Like maybe I like stop building startups and like I think VC is actually a more relaxing life. So like maybe I end up doing full time vc. I do a family office, I go into like foundation work. Right. But I think I always need to work because. Because I get happiness off of like my brain running and solving problems. Like that excites me and gives me like this serotonin adrenaline rush. And I remember I was like traveling around the world. I was so happy because I love meeting new people, making new friends, learning about new cultures, like seeing how beautiful the world is. Like I like still have like great memories of just like being on top of a mountain by myself and just be like, wow, this is really pretty. But I just like I was lacking that like serotonin, like high I would get from solving problems and I think I need that for the rest of my life. So here we are.

31:50

Here we are.

32:35

Are.

32:36

I mean that's priceless. That's something you can't buy.

32:36

Yeah.

32:38

And so you tried to take a little break after a big liquidity event and you just thought it's not.

32:39

Well, this is actually not after liquidity event. I was like, okay, I think I have enough to like do. I was like a mix between fat fire, lean fire. Like I was like, I could be comfortable, right?

32:45

Tell me the difference. Fat fire, lean fire.

32:53

Lean fire is like retiring off of like very little money and fat fire is retiring off of like more money, I guess, and like living a more grand lifestyle. But I also like little hacks to live grand lifestyles. Right. So I was like, okay, like, like let me just. I don't care about where I live. So I bought this like $70,000 apartment in the airport. Yeah, it's actually airport. It's two bedrooms, two baths. Yeah, I don't know like 2,500 square feet. It was next to a bunch of homeless people and like there is a hole on the roof now because I think someone broke in and like was living there cuz they started getting utility bills again.

32:55

Wait, this is your hack to live a luxury lifestyle? No, no, no.

33:26

That was how I was able to reduce my like your main nut, everything else on my luxurious lifestyle.

33:32

So live in a hole and then.

33:40

And then like, yeah, you could do like let it churn, but then also charter your yeah, like, I mean, like, let's say, like, you wanted to, like, fly for free first class everywhere, right? Just go to the airport lounge and, like, start being really friendly to every airline employee and someone could list you as a buddy and then you get to fly for free everywhere.

33:43

Has that happened to you?

34:01

Every time I talk to a flight attendant, I always make a joke like, oh, yeah, do you want to list me as, like, your buddy? I'm still trying to get JetBlue right now, but, yes, I have been airline buddies.

34:02

So they can just list you and you'll get upgraded.

34:12

Oh, so then they can list you and then you could basically fly first class for free. Yeah, because you fly on standby, but then you get upgraded to, like, you book, like, business. Right. And then you go fly business for many buddies.

34:15

Can they have usually a few?

34:26

Yeah, you can list, like, your parents, buddies, siblings are into getting dark deals. I love.

34:28

No matter what's in your bank account.

34:36

Or what you're running joke in the office that, like, I love buy one, get one free because bogos the best. Yeah. And like, I was telling my friend was asking me, like, how do you discover good restaurants? I'm like, oh. So I literally go on UberEats. I click on, like, the deals, I find a Bogo, and then I go on Yelp and match the restaurant and dish to see if it looks good and it has good reviews. And if so, then I try it, and if it's good, then I go to the restaurant and try other items. But I find all my new food through, like, Bogo deals.

34:37

And do you think that's always going to be the case?

35:04

I think so. And the reason I think so is I think that, like, people that make their money really understand the value of every dollar, and then from that, they really value when they can save money.

35:07

I agree. I had, like, a small negotiating win with, like, a vendor that I was so, so excited about. It was like 20 or $30, but, like, for me, it just felt like a win or something that, you know, like, I was getting for less.

35:16

Fiverr.

35:31

Yeah, like a few million. I was still riding Uber pools and I was using a McDonald's app to save, like a dollar or whatever. And my friends thought I was batshit crazy. They're like, dude, your time is more valuable. I can't believe you're still run Uber pools. And I'm like, well, I don't feel like I'm really wasting time. Like, I work on my laptop. I'm a great conversation with drivers, and the Riders. So, yeah, I think I've always just been someone where I'm like, okay, like, I still, like, ride. What? Well, I try to optimize for whatever is fastest, but I also look at, like, the price difference on Uber. I'm like, okay, cool, if it's like $30 versus $60, I'm gonna take the $30 ride. Even have to wait longer. But if it's like 30 versus, like, 40 and the wait time is same, like, I'm gonna take the Uber X over the comfort.

35:31

Yeah, I mean, look, there's like, the saying that rich people stay rich by acting like they're poor, and poor people stay poor by acting like they're rich. And I think that, like, if you want sustainability, you know, you can't ball out on everything.

36:12

Exactly.

36:24

Maybe you can get anything. You can't get everything.

36:25

Yeah, like, when I spend money, it's, like, usually for comfortability or like, if I, like, don't want to, like, do a bunch of layovers and sit, you know, not. Not a lie flat. I will, like, consider getting a jet. But otherwise, like, I prefer just. Or, like, if I don't want to be around, like, because, like, I'm a girl and I know, like, you know, I'm in a scene, so I can always get free tables. Right. But I'm like, oh, if I'm at a promoter table where I have to talk to a bunch of dudes I don't want to talk to, I'd rather rather just get my own table.

36:28

You go out a lot, as you mentioned. Have you ever closed a deal at a concert or a rave?

36:54

I have, like, done diligence on companies at concerts and raves. Not to my knowledge that I can remember in my head have I closed.

37:00

The deal, Because I have an ex who closed a lot of deals at strip clubs, and I always wondered, like, if there was an equivalent for women closing deals.

37:09

Deals. No, that actually, like, fascinates me, too, because I hear this too, like, where, like, business men specifically will go to, like, strip clubs or just, like, clubs in general and close deals, and it's just, like, so icky to me. Like, what?

37:18

Yeah, I mean, there's also sweat working, which I'm sure is up your alley too. Or people are taking, like, runs or walks while they're having a meeting, so they're getting their.

37:31

That being said, I will say, I think that people. There are people that do close deals at music festivals, slash, raves, and I think it's usually, like, the DJ themselves. So, like, let's Say you're a DJ and you have a venture fund.

37:40

It's just crazy that that's not uncommon.

37:53

Yeah, it's not. It's so common. But there are DJs, adventure funds where like, you know, they'll be like, oh, like, let us in the deal and like, we'll let you backstage, like on stage and show you a good time. And that work. Oh, fully works, yeah. Because I think, like, you have these founders who, you know, they love EDM music. I think a lot of founders like Edmund music. My hypothesis is that, like, we were really nerdy growing up. We probably went through a depressed phase. And the BPM of em literally opens up to heart chakra and makes you all happy and like joyful. Right.

37:56

And your throat chakra too. Because you're screaming, like all the anger and all the whatever pent up stuff.

38:21

That you know you're screaming, but you're definitely singing. But yeah, I think that, like, then you get so struck and then that's how I see.

38:26

Yeah, is by screaming. But it's. But it's true. And also sports too, which is why, you know, a lot of deals get done for like courtside tickets or like getting into, you know, minority stakes of sports teams and stuff like that. Because I do think, yeah, it's like.

38:32

Yeah, I actually think sports is probably where, like, a lot of people do deals too. I can see that at games. Like, we take people out to games when we're like, trying to like, not close deals, but build relationships, like stronger relationships.

38:47

Do you think there's a stigma around people who work hard, play hard?

39:00

So I think the world is very sexist and I think the stigma only exists with women. And I say this because I'm biased. Like, like, am I salty that I have this stigma? Like, yes. I think that people are like, oh, she's a party girl, whatever, she doesn't work. And I'm like, I'm just awake more hours in the day than you. And I actually am in the office longer than you and on my laptop longer than you. I wake up earlier than you. I sleep later than you. I'm sorry that you did not get born with a gene where you can't, like, you need your full eight hours of sleep. Like, that's not.

39:04

You have that, like the gene that you don't require sleep because that's.

39:30

I would say according to my eight sleep, like, I have pretty high recovery. Even when I sleep like five hours. I would say I was a lot stronger younger, like, younger, I could do three hours and be fine. Now I was like five hours. I feel great. But if I'm on four, I'm like, I'm not happy. I'm really not happy on four. But all the like guys in tech I know, like they're party animals. Like I. They're crazy. I think they're like a bunch of public examples out there, you know, that like, you know, their tea has been spilled. But also privately, like ones that you don't hear about as much. Like they are doing everything possible imaginable. They're out at 4am on Tuesday nights slash mornings, I guess, and nothing. Nobody says a thing.

39:33

I was so surprised by this. When I lived in New York, I saw it more, you know, like guys would be out, guys, more four o', clock, whatever.

40:19

Yeah.

40:27

Then going running in the morning and then like to work. I mean, I feel like there are some people that are just superhuman.

40:28

Oh yeah.

40:34

In that way. Now that you're so deep with passes in the creator space, what have you learned about, about the fees or like, where do creators get tripped up by not earning what they, what other creators are potentially earning? You've talked about the idea that, you know, people shouldn't sign these 360 deals with managers.

40:35

Yeah. So 360 deals are terrible. I think I'm learning that like some people have extremely predatory contracts. I mean, I can just go through red flags where like, let's say a manager takes 20% of a deal, but then if the like brand doesn't pay the creator, they still owe the manager the money and the manager can collect from them. That's some of the more predatory things I've seen. I've seen like managers quite literally steal money from creators where the creator might be getting offered like $20,000, but the manager only gives like $5,000 out of that $20,000. Or like they keep all the upside in a deal. I think like my main problem with the industry though is that they think very short term and I think Hollywood is very like cash hungry. So they're not thinking about like the long term of. And they might even be like how agencies are structured, right. Like you have to get, let's call it $1 million a quarter in like brand deals for creators. So it's a quota. Yeah, yeah, the quota. So they're not thinking about the equity upside for creators, which I think really matters just for like both long term generational wealth, but also like when companies are giving creator. Like when companies are using creators. Right. Like they're betting that the creator is going to Be cheaper than, like, any other marketing spend they can do. And that's because creators don't have the typical customer acquisition costs when they promote a brand because they have followers that convert better than ads. So I really do wish that, like, this equity component were included. So creators can, like, certain creators might actually just, you know, bet on themselves and then, like, take equity in a company. Like Alex girl with, like, sip marks, right? Like, she, like, bet on herself with equity. And I think you're seeing a lot of creators do this both with, like, you know, incubating brands with other companies or, like, taking profits from, like, an entire.

40:54

I don't know why managers wouldn't just utilize the same percentage for the equity. Like, if you got, you know, a point or whatever. Like, couldn't they take 20 basis points?

42:35

Yeah, so they could. I think that it's not valued in Hollywood. The ones that really do value it got burned from it before. So I've met a few, you know, like, influencers, celebrities whose agents, like, turned down the equity deal for them, and then they lost, like, hundreds of millions. And then they're like, oh, like, we need to change this now. Those are actually the people that I've met that ended up creating their own companies, and then they're now worth hundreds of millions. Um, but I think, like, once you, like, realize the power of equity, you really value it, but because most people never really understand it because they didn't. Like, you never really understanding. So, like, you lose it, right? And then you're like, crap like that FOMO hits.

42:46

And to be clear, the 360 deals are basically where they're commissioning off stuff that they didn't book for you.

43:27

Oh, yeah. So, like, so many people are in these 360 deals where I. Even if, like, you started your own brand and you were making money from it and your agent had nothing to do with it, or your manager had nothing to do with it, they still take that 20%. Yeah. And I have friends that, like, have music managers, and all that manager does for them is music, and they take 20 from everything else they do, which is super unfair. And, like, their manager's argument is like, well, we're making you bigger through music, so we deserve 20 of everything you do. But I just, like, I don't think that's fair.

43:34

It's not.

44:01

Right.

44:02

There's this old south park skit that's like, I'm. I'm sure the. The writers were pissed at their agents are like, we have. If you have all the talent, do all the deals make all the connections. We'll be the best agents in the world if you. If you just handle everything. Yeah. I mean, I've gotten myself into bad situations with agents and managers. It. It's hard. And. And I think that I didn't realize early on, but I did later when I had some weird stuff happen for. With agents that tried to commission stuff that they didn't do do. Like, I fought back with them. And so I think sometimes creators think that just because they get a bill, like, they have to pay it or just because they got like a scary. Yeah.

44:02

And the better ones will, like, negotiate. But there are some that like, immediately jump into lawsuits, which is not great.

44:40

Not today.

44:47

Yeah, I had a friend that their agent was collecting their money for it on their behalf and like, sending it to them, but also handling their, like rent, their bills, etc, and then he found out his agent was stealing money when the landlord lord called and was like, you haven't paid rent in three months.

44:48

Yeah, I hate that.

45:00

Yeah, it's crazy.

45:01

With passes. I know you have said that there will be a unicorn creator. Will that happen in 2026?

45:01

I don't think it'll happen in 2026. I'm gonna be completely honest. Like, I think that, like, if I can make a unicorn creator in the lifespan of this company, I'd be very happy. So, like, let's call it like the next 10 years before it goes public or like, it gets acquired. But we are starting to like, incubate some brands, so I'm excited if somebody.

45:09

Wants to be a creator or join package classes. What's the process like? And if somebody is like now just waking up to the idea that maybe a creator, lifestyle or career is for them, do you think it's ever too late?

45:25

I never think it's too late. Especially now with like, Tick Tock and Instagram reels. Discovery has become a lot easier. So you can gain followers pretty quickly. And I think there's just like, certain scripts you can do to gain followers. I always tell people, like, the best way to gain followers is probably just do like a part 10 series and, you know, write a script script or copy one of the scripts on Tick Tock. The difference between followers and fans, though, like, it. There is a pretty key difference. And that's like, are they interested in you as a person? Right. Like, do they want to stalk you, talk about you outside of, like, your TikTok and Instagram comments? And that's actually what we evaluate when we see if someone will do well on passes or not like are you being talked about on Reddit, discord channels, telegram groups, forums, etc? Because that means that you have like real fans or like are like fan pages making videos and like collages of you versus like just interaction on your page because it's so easy to comment, like so hot, so pretty. Haha. That was funny. But like real fans go one step above, right? So I would do like a 10 part series and then like start doing live streams to showcase your personality, like throw in a random videos also that showcase your personality to like become an influencer and then to join passes. Really simple process. You just apply and we review your application, check you're a real human and. And then we accept you. And then depending on like how many followers you have or like what your earning potential is, we'll have someone in the company reach out and like really hold your hand while setting up your profile and like setting up launch day, et cetera.

45:38

So when, if you join you then get a lot of monetization tools.

47:02

Yeah.

47:06

Where did you see the system was broken around monetization for creators?

47:06

Yeah. So I would say it was probably around Covid. I was, at the same time I got really frustrated about like brand deals and equity cause I had a lot of creative friends and I was like like why are you guys not taking equity in these companies, guys? And over Covid I had a lot of friends where they're like brand deals kind of dried up. And then around the same time Patreon raised at a $4 billion valuation and I was like holy shit. Like there's probably something here. And I looked at monetization tools they had and it was pretty bare bones at the time. Sorry Patreon, you guys have done a really good job improving. So I was like okay, great. Like I genuinely, when I look at like what tech companies to build, I think that the best tech companies are when there's a stagnant product that's lacking innovation. Right. Like startups do better. These like large companies like Google, Facebook, etc. Like they're able to come in because they're able to move faster. So I saw an opportunity to like move faster and build more tools for creators to monetize. And I think we're also thinking of it very differently than Patreon where Patreon's entire motto is like brand deals aren't paying you enough. So monetize with your fans and like have consistent income. And ours is like have that but then build generational wealth. That's the approach of like how we've taken it and how we're thinking about the 360 of the company.

47:11

What do you think the future of the creator economy is?

48:19

I think the future of the creator economy is that it's going to grow for sure. When you talk to kids these days, like, they all want to become creators, I think that's a good sign that it is growing. I think that people are going to care a lot less about just like how many followers you have, what engagement you even have. And it's going to be more based off of, like, how can you convert, right? So people are going to like, start measuring like super fan communities because I think it is like a direct correlation to like, will this person be able to actually, actually influence product sales? And then I think AI is actually going to have a much larger influence than people think. I don't believe in AI creators because how, like, fans are emotionally attached to creators, right? And like, there is no like, emotional attachment when it comes to like an AI creator. Like, you can't really relate to their life. You don't get excited to see like, who they're dating, et cetera, because it's just not real. That being said, I can see for like certain brand deals, it might make more sense to license out your likeness to a brand brand versus having to like fly out for a week, set up a production studio and have to have makeup artists like video editors, etc. Like, AI is gonna be much cheaper at doing that. And as long as you don't dilute your brand so you don't work with like a hundred different brands, like, you're going to be able to get paid relatively the same. I think that like, yes, you'll make less, be able to work with more brands and expand your time, scale your time. But like, you'll have more time to now reinvest into your content and like interacting with your fans and growing an even larger fan base.

48:22

What would you just say to somebody asking for a friend who's nervous about showing more of their personal life? Like, do you think that that's a necessary ingredient to becoming successful now?

49:47

I think you either have to share a lot of knowledge and people will like, latch on to knowledge, right? Which is why all these like finance podcasts and like TikToks etc do so well because they're like, oh, I learned something. Let me follow and continue to learn things. I think you can be successful off of creating like, storylines and scripts. So like, you know Those like mini TV series on TikTok, those do well because that's entertainment and then you can be successful off of like being very personable. But I think being personable is one of the most important things if you want to build a brand. Because if you like do these like, for example, like there's a lot of like actors and actresses out there, right? But like not all of them are going to be able to build a killer brand because you might be a star in a movie, but like if you're not personable, like no one really cares about you. And I think like, I'm like trying.

50:00

To think of examples.

50:48

I don't really want to like, you know, throw anyone down. But like there's creators with like tens of millions or hundreds of millions of followers that like can't convert at all because like they might have that and they might have great engagement because they're hot or whatever, but like no one really cares about what they're saying. Versus like Taylor Swift, right. Like people are obsessed with her because her songs are so relatable. She's like made it a point to interact with their fans, express, etc.

50:49

Like people love her, myself included. Yes. I think that's like probably the north star of.

51:11

She's a north star of like fan.

51:18

What do you think the big trends are for this year? I know like Gary Vee talks a lot about live shopping being the next live streaming. Where do you see it going, a live shopping?

51:20

Yes, that's going to be trend. I think these other things, like I want to say like creators using more AI tools to create content or like selling their likeness or licensing not their likeness, etc. But at the end of the day I actually think AI tool adoption is going to be a lot slower than we expect amongst the creator community because everyone like we had that like new AI actress pop up, right. And everyone's freaking out. I think it's going to explode once creators realize and like everyone in the creative industry realizes like AI is not going to replace them. But at the moment, yeah, I'm curious, I guess like one like consumer trend I think is going to happen is. And I don't know if it's gonna be 2026 or 2027, but I think it will happen relatively soon. Is vertical. Movies and TV shows explain.

51:31

So awesome.

52:18

Yeah. So right now everything is horizontal, right? Like when you watch a movie, it's horizontal, et cetera, et cetera. I think we're gonna get like full length films and I think Netflix will adopt this too. Like broken up of like. Yeah, I think it'll be like part based. I Think that we're going to see like maybe interactive movies and TV shows and videos. But I fully think that it's gonna go from like a horizontal format to a vertical format.

52:19

You've been on a lot of shows. What do you wish somebody asked you but didn't?

52:42

I don't know, it'd probably have to be like more of like my crazy, like lifestyle, like things I do for fun, I guess. Like, I think that I'm like interesting the sense that like I have no sense, sense of fear at all. So I can have my skydiving license. I ride electric long boards. I have my scuba diving license. I like went nighttime diving without ever being trained. Apparently very dangerous. Yeah, I guess, like I just, I think I have a lot of outside interests, outside of like business. I think I'm like very multi hyphenate, like very different personality types because of that.

52:49

Yeah, I mean when we assess like in the finance world, risk, like you look at those factors too. So it's not just like risk tolerance within what you feel like the stock market is going to do. It's like, would you go skydiving? I mean you exude risk tolerance. So like 360 in all aspects of your life. And for, because of course we're at money rehab. Have you felt like you needed money rehab or made financial mistakes, mistakes that you can help advise others not to make?

53:26

I would say my main financial mistakes I have personally made are buying apartments because you don't own the land. So like it almost never goes up. Right. And then you have to pay a HOA fee. So I would say, and I say this because like, this is probably like, does relate to the audience. Like you always want to buy a single family home, so you own the land. Very rarely are you going to make money on an apartment after you like, you know, have property, property taxes and then when you resell it, you like, you know, have to pay a real estate agent fees, etc. Etc. Almost always like a house is going to be a better investment. I can't even think of an apartment. I looked at where it would have made me money actually. Maybe there's one in New York. But at the end of the day, like HOA fees are also uncontrollable. They can always rise. Like my HO fees, HOA fees literally over doubled after being promised they wouldn't. And then there's just so many rules. Like you, you don't want that. So single family homes only. But also when you buy a single family home, like you really have to hold it for a while, otherwise you're probably going to lose money on it. And I think that like above a certain price point, it's just not worth it. Like I think that like my LA house, I'm actually going to lose money on.

53:58

Why?

55:04

Maybe you look at like the historicals of like LA mansions over the last like decade. They don't really go up in price. It's like pretty flatlined, I'd say. Not to mention that like the larger the house, the more problems it has. Like it breaks every single day and so do my friends houses that are large. Like that's just a problem with large houses. And then like, then you need to get a house manager that you didn't like, you know, factor into the cost. It's just a mess. I think that like anything like 5 million and under, if the historicals look good, you can make money off of it. Amazing. But like when you start going higher and higher, like it the, you kind of buy the house knowing that you're going to lose money. Not to mention that like now you're locking up money because even if you do get a mortgage, you're still having to put a down payment on, right? That like that money could be reinvested elsewhere. Like renting from what I found is actually almost always cheaper. I always see all the articles going like homeownership, like key to freedom, et cetera. And then like, I think you really need to do more research on like what kind of apartment or house are you looking at? Like, like what's the area, what the historicals look at the last 10 years. And then factor in other costs like maintenance costs, property taxes, etc. Insurance. Because I would actually argue most of the time you're saving money renting.

55:05

I argue that all the time. We argue that on this show a lot because you know, if you look at actually just the numbers, it's not a good investment. Maybe you're getting the home because it's like an emotional thing or stability. Like I saw my house foreclosed on when I was a kid. So like maybe I want a home or you know, something like that, which is just as valuable and just as important. But it's a different conversation than a strictly financial investment conversation because there it's growing four and a half percent year over year, which is less than putting your money in vo.

56:21

Exactly.

56:51

Okay, so we talked about a mistake or a misconception in finance. We end our episodes by asking for a final tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. Is there something that you would suggest.

56:52

Financially I just have such like different risk tolerance where I like prefer going all in versus playing it slow and easy. So like for example, like if I had only 100,000, I'd probably just be like, okay, let's just put it in like Amazon and call it a day and like close my eyes blindly because like you're really like if you're gonna just go with that S and P, like yeah, it grows like you're never going to make a lot of fucking money versus if you go all in on something, you have the opportunity to make a lot of money.

57:04

I mean higher risk, higher reward, right?

57:34

Yeah, exactly.

57:36

Like it goes in parallel.

57:37

So I guess for me, my financial advice it would be really different between someone's risk tolerance. So I'm the type of person that really does go all in which is, you know, why did startups, right, Like I left the multimillion dollar job to be able to like to have the like 1% chance, like less than 1% chance of building a unicorn and like it worked. That being said, I think that like the smarter piece of advice would probably be like put maybe 70% of your money into S and P because it's always going to grow in return. It does beat like every hedge fund when you look at like it long term and then maybe put the other 30 in riskier investments. Whether it's bitcoin, whether it's like your friend's company that you really believe in. I think if you are very specifically if you are deciding to go all in on a start startup hoping that you'll succeed. What I would personally do is like, I hate to say it but like there's a reason why in VCS like people do follow like it's like we're considered cheap and like we follow Tier 1 VCS because they do make the best judgments and have like the best calls at the end of the day. So if you like see a company that like let's call it went through Y Combinator and Sequoia invested in them and like it's in the AI space and the founders like you know, went to mit, chances are like worst case scenario they'll get acqui hired and you're still going to make a return and a pretty good return. So just put the 100,000 in there. Like put your other 30,000 in there and call it a day. Close your eyes if you have your risk tolerance, if your risk tolerance is there.

57:38

And you mentioned you know like being in corporate, if somebody works at a snap type company, or if they're offered, you know, some equity package, where do you see mistakes made around that? Or like, knowing what that should be, like options, what are the questions that you should be asking?

59:04

So what I've seen is a lot of people just get a dollar amount of like, this is how many RSUs you're getting, but you're not understanding, like, okay, at what valuation? How many shares is this actually? Which isn't great. Other times you'll get like, you know, an offer saying, okay, you have like 2,000 shares, but you don't really know what the value of those shares are. And you should always ask these things that clarify so you know, like an exact amount of like, how much you're actually getting. And then outside of that, I think a big mistake I see is that, like, if you're at a startup that's not public yet, just take the lower salary. Like, I'm going to assume if you're at a startup and you probably are younger and you don't need the like safety net of a larger salary, like, you don't have kids to feed. And if you do have kids to feed and you're joining a startup, chances are you were already successful and have a savings and you decided to finally take some risk in your life. So I always say, like, as long as you're like below a series, like C, like series C below, take the larger equity package.

59:22

Well, one of our most popular episodes actually was understanding private company equity and like asking those questions about how many shares are outstanding or like liquidation preferences or stuff like that. Because I think, you know, to clarify, yes, equity can be better, but it's not always. And it's also never like always going to, you know, hit the moon or whatever, because I think they see.

1:00:21

And you'll know your strike price if you're getting shit shares, etc.

1:00:40

You mentioned putting it 30% potentially in riskier assets like bitcoin. What's your latest take on crypto? Like, how much crypto do you have?

1:00:43

I actually have no crypto. No crypto? Yeah. So I mean, I had some crypto and then I forgot I don't know where wallets pass codes are. So I now have no. And like, for the.

1:00:52

Didn't you get bitcoin at like 100 or something?

1:01:03

Yes, I got bitcoin at 100 when I was in high school.

1:01:05

Crazy.

1:01:07

But then I've had wallets and I don't even know where my wallets are anymore. It's funny because I always see people trying to hack my Coinbase, and, like, I have nothing in there. You don't have to go with my coinbase.

1:01:08

Yeah.

1:01:17

And then I.

1:01:17

You can't get it back.

1:01:18

No, no. I just, like, I made a bunch of different Metamask wallets, and I'm like, whatever. But I never really had that much, like. And I did recently, I was really stupid here, but, like, I downloaded this app called Moonshot and I was like, oh, like, Meme Coin investing. Let's try this. And I was making so much money on Meme Coins, and then I got a text going like, I was literally running on a treadmill. Just like, okay, put all your money in RIS right now. And I was like, whatever. Right? Like, it was gambling for me. And like I said, I was like, I was willing to go all in, so I put all my crypto in ris. Anyways, it tanked, went to zero.

1:01:20

So now you're out?

1:01:53

Yeah, I'm out. But who knows? Maybe Rismas will pop up this Christmas.

1:01:54