The Bodies Were Shaking

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I think she might be innocent. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Eckerd. In 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. But here's the thing. Bachelor fans hated him. If I could press a button and rewind it all, I would. That's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one-night stand would end in a courtroom. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Just start by telling me, like, back in the day in the 1980s, how did you know Vincent and Shelly? I knew Vincent from school, of course. Shelly's brother, she played on my baseball team. I knew her from there. I used to go to lunch with Vincent all the time. We had all campus lunch, so we would hop in his car. He got his car before I got mine, and we would go eat lunch. That is the voice of a man who knew Vincent and Shelly. He was also one of the kids from the group who, in 1983, cruised up and down the Strip, passing through Piss Hill on Friday and Saturday nights. What kind of car did Vincent have? 70 or 71 Monte Carlo, that generation. So, besides his father's Monte Carlo, he also had a Monte Carlo? Yes, sir. The one that they were found in was like a 78 to 80 model. It was that generation. His was the early generation. I see. And so what kind of kid was he? Oh, gosh. Quiet, nice. Probably do anything for anybody. Very quiet. New martial arts and stuff like that. So he'd pop you in the head if he had to, but I never saw him do that to anyone. but he always had a smile on his face. Did he talk about Shelly at all? He didn't really talk about her that much. I knew that they saw each other in the hall and stuff like that, but I didn't realize that she, I thought she was a little old, I didn't realize she was 14, but no, he never really said anything. Now when I say that, I mean like, he didn't say anything bad either. Like, you know, they don't like me dating her. They think she's too young. They never said anything. What about the high school itself? I mean, was there a lot of meth around the high school at the time? Okay, Howard's only a freshman. So I know that Harper County was pretty young. Back in the day, we called it Crank. Crank, ice, meth, same drug, different street name. I know that there was some around, but I found out about it later. And what about the law enforcement in the town? What kind of reputation did law enforcement have? Okay, the road for PV was pretty high up there. What about Parker County Sheriff's Department? All we ever heard was that's kind of sort of how I found out about the mess. We heard that, you know, there might be some shady things going on with the sheriff. You know what I mean? Not that anybody's ever proven a thing. You know how bad rumors go as opposed to good rumors about people, businesses, and things like that. We just always heard that he was always kind of shady or had shady days. No matter who I spoke to from that group, The conversation always came back around to the meth trade and how some in law enforcement were deeply intertwined with that world. The Parker County meth culture back then was so fixed in everyday life. Even if you weren't involved or a user, you undoubtedly heard about how certain members of law enforcement were so complicitly involved that, God forbid, if you were to somehow threaten their means of wealth in any way, you had better start planning your funeral. The frightening part of it all? Even after 40 plus years, no one, not a prosecutor, a fellow law enforcement officer, or federal authorities had done anything about it. Not even looked into the possibility that corrupt law enforcement officials had their hands in the drug trade cookie jar, or if they had hurt people. Quite frankly, nobody seemed to give a shit about the murder of two kids. And so it makes you wonder if justice even has a voice left in this world. And so the night of the murder. So tell me a little bit about that night. You go out, you know, you're cruising the strip, I guess. Is that how it works? Yeah. Yeah, South Man was our strip. I was on my first car date that night, and so I had to go and talk to the parents, of course. And then we went, and we were cruising, and we went and saw him, grabbed something to drink, and saw Vincent chilling there in Vincent's parents' Monte Carlo. And he just put some Craiger SS wheels on his Monte Carlo. I was surprised that he wasn't in it, but we just pulled up next to him and, you know, waved and whatever. And I would say, I want to say it wasn't dark yet. If it was March, it got dark here, you know, still kind of early. So it was probably right at that time, because I would have had to have been home by 9 o'clock. So it was before that. But, you know, like I said, just saw them, hey, you know, they waved, and we got our drink or whatever we did. That was it. You didn't say anything? You didn't talk to them? No, just your usual, hey, what are y'all up to? What are y'all doing? I may have asked him how come he was in his mom's car, not his. But as far as got out and spoke or got in each other's car, no. I don't remember if there was anybody else there talking to him, but it was just him in the car. And I think it was just a normal life to see somebody out on a Friday night or whatever. And how did he seem? Uh, normal. I mean, you know, I'm, um, I have a good memory. I have a real good memory, but I mean, I think I would have noticed if he would have seen apprehensive. And even though we weren't super buddies, lifetime buddies or nothing, I, I think he would have, I know he would have said something if he was uncomfortable or if they, if he thought somebody was following him. I'm just about guaranteed he would have said something. Because, you know, we knew pretty much everybody. So he would have said, you know, hey, you know someone that drives this type of vehicle or this type of vehicle or this kind of truck. If he was worried or apprehensive, I'm just about guaranteed he would have said something. He went on to say nothing seemed off. Shelly and Vincent were happy to be out together for the first time. This was about 9 p.m., a time which, as I developed new information from a new source you'll soon meet in this final episode, becomes vitally important. At some point that night, according to a source related to Shelly, she and Vincent actually left the strip and drove about 25 minutes northeast into the town of Azle, Texas, for a reason I will soon get to, which will surprise most everyone close to the kids. What was your first thought when you heard that there was a double murder like that? I guess my first thought would have been, they got the wrong people. And as time went on, what were people talking about? What were they saying happened? There's someone that lived on that road. Somebody says that maybe he had something to do with it. I don't know how. We heard that it had come up on a drug deal. I heard the thing about that license plate number, supposed to be looking for that other Monte Carlo, with another one number of different license plate numbers. Heard that those Crager SS's that he bought were stolen, and he bought them from someone else, but that person had supposedly stolen, and the person found out about his wheels. Those Crager tire rims my source mentions were expensive, a luxury item. As a kid of the late 80s myself, I recall every gearhead in town wanting Crager rims for their hot rod. So, to add to everything else, this source says he heard the vehicle Vincent was driving ultimately got the kids killed. The story was that the Monte Carlo Vincent was driving on that night had the same license plate number, with only one number different from a Monte Carlo up there cruising the strip at the same time. The theory being someone was looking for a guy in a Monte Carlo who owed money to drug dealers and thought it was Vincent. I know there was another Monte Carlo with the exact same color. We heard that the last number of the license plate was one-off. We heard, you know, one of the rumors was that that's actually who they were looking for. Who that car belonged to, I don't know. Just heard about there being another one, same color model, with one different on the license plate. When I hear theories like this, I chalk it up to active teenage imagination and high school hallway chatter. Another rumor to add to the list. The odds that the same car with the same license plate number with one number off being up there at the same time are astronomical. Come to find out, according to Shelley Cauliflower's uncle, Ernest Frosty Cauliflower, who you'll hear from in this episode, Vincent and Shelley did not stay on the strip long on that night. They took off somewhere near 9 p.m. and drove 25 minutes out of town and wound up inside a meth cookhouse where they saw something and someone they shouldn't have seen. Something and someone, in fact, that led directly to their deaths. Previously on Paper Ghosts. Hey, we know that they were killed with the car running. So that's already a huge question for me. As someone who's an M.E., why are you not documenting all the exterior injuries? Because you haven't documented any. You know how it works back in. You know, you see them guys, they all got the crude coat, they're tall, they all wear canned cowboy hair. They can go up. They saw something out there they weren't supposed to see. My name is M. William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist and the New York Times bestselling author of dozens of true crime books. This is Season 5 of Paper Ghosts, The Texas Teen Murders. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth. Until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was. no voicing of any skepticism or doubt it'll cause so much harm at every single level of the british establishment of this is wrong listen to doubt the case of lucy letby on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts hey i'm jay shetty host of the on purpose podcast i'm joined by luke combs award-winning country music artist and one of the most authentic voices in music today. Luke opens up about success, self-doubt, mental health, and what it really takes to stay true to who you are when your life changes overnight. I hate fame. I hate the word celebrity. I hate those words. They make me uncomfortable. But I think when you get to a certain point, the fame or the success or the influence, it just accentuates and exacerbates the inherent person that you are. The guy that says he's always going to be there and that will do anything to be there is the only guy that's not there. I'm in Australia when Bo was born. My whole identity is that no matter what, I'm going to prioritize my wife and my children over my job. I dread the conversation with my son. What do you think you'd say? Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Hi, my name is M. William Phelps. I'm a journalist. I'm working on a narrative podcast about a bunch of teen deaths around Texas during the 80s. And several people I've spoken to in and out of law enforcement have mentioned your name and that maybe you could help. I'm not sure in which way, but they just mentioned your name. I thought I'd give you a call. As I suspected, neither of the names I have been censoring throughout the podcast called me back after my attempt at contacting them. It's hard to ignore the fact that over a dozen sources have told me basically the same story, with both of these names dead center. And once again, I need to remind you that neither have been charged. These men are, as we speak, innocent. It does not matter what anybody says about them. There is still no direct evidence linking either of them to these murders. I cannot confirm whether they were interviewed recently by law enforcement. because law enforcement cut contact when they realized how close I was getting to Shelly and Vincent's case. In this podcast, you've heard from Lieutenant Johnny Qualls, the current Weatherford Police Department cold case detective investigating Shelly and Vincent's murders. He spoke to me. He agreed to be recorded for the podcast. After that conversation, I began emailing him about our next conversation and what I would like to talk about. Qualls and I made another day to speak. I then asked Lori Cates to post a message on the Justice for Shelley and Vincent Facebook page asking anyone with information about the case to contact me. It was, I have to admit, a litmus test. After that Facebook post, Qualls blew off our scheduled date. He said he was busy. We made another date. I sent him more questions, each email revealing some of the information I was hearing. He stopped communicating with me entirely after that. So I sent him an email on June 19th, 2025. Mr. Qualls, is there any chance we can speak again or no? If you could kindly let me know, I'd appreciate it so I can either move on or plan another time and day. With respect. He ghosted me. I have learned that silence in certain situations speaks so much louder and in volumes. Weatherford Police Chief Lance Arnold left the force several years ago, given the impression before his departure that he was interested in pursuing the case, with investigators making one more big push to solve it. Private investigator Mel Mitchell got in touch with Arnold after he retired. When I learned this, my first comment to Mel was, after you interview him, get him to agree to talk to me for the podcast. One of the things Arnold told Mel was that the Weatherford PD, quite recently, had reached out to the Texas Rangers once again for help. and so when I talked to Arnold Arnold told me he's like yeah they actually reached out to the same group of people and had sent them the entire files what they had to these individuals the same group that we reached out to and that they had been working the case like a year and a half and they were kind of the same position that Weatherford was in like they didn't have enough solid evidence to move forward on anybody we didn't really get into the evidence as much as I wanted to I mean Like I said, we only have about an hour to talk, but I was really surprised that he was very open in the fact that, you know, hey, I'm actually, you know, I totally get the podcast. You know, there needs to be a light shine on this. Maybe you'll kind of force things to kind of come forward and the right thing will be done. I did tell him, I'm like, I'm not out to get Weatherford, especially with the current PD. There's a lot of people out there that have no clue who these kids are. They're not from Weatherford. They're new officers. You know, we're not trying to do some kind of, you know, witch hunt on Weatherford PD. But now on the original law enforcement, you know, the original investigators, it's a little bit of a different story because I think a lot of them were corrupt in their own capacity. And he's like, well, if that's the case and that's on them, he's like, because I can turn out as cops, we hate dirty cops. So he's like, if y'all find some improprieties or corruption on their behalf on the original investigators and stuff like that, then have at it. You know, more power to you. I think based on everything I have been able to report in this series, improprieties would be the understatement of the entire podcast. Here is Justice for Vincent and Shelley Facebook Administrator Lori Cates once again. it's the DNA that I was told by a former Texas Ranger that there was DNA loaded in Dakotas and there hasn't been a hit yet and he said the next step would be to test somebody in Vincent's family to make sure because we've been told DNA profiles plural there were DNA profiles they were loaded in Dakotas hadn't been hit yet. So he was talking about eliminating, making sure that Vincent Jr.'s DNA was eliminated from those profiles. And then the next thing would be to collect trash, test that DNA against what's been loaded in Dakotas. And then if there was a match, they would issue a warrant for his DNA. On paper, or rather, on a podcast, all of that sounds great. Exactly how cold case work can unfold in the real world. But in this case, in this county, with these law enforcement agencies involved, I'm sorry, and I'm not one to bash law enforcement, But I have a growing fear that justice will never be served. And if I was to put all of the cold cases I've ever worked on on a board, and someone asked me to point to the one which was most solvable, this case would certainly be it. The answers are here. It just takes someone with enough balls and the willingness to set their career ambitions aside and go right at it. As I concluded what I could do for this case, there was one nagging question in the back of my mind I needed to answer. Within everything I'd found out, I had not seen any evidence of Shelly being raped. If she was, it could change the entire dynamic of the motive and offer the potential of DNA evidence being left behind. But these murders, to me, felt like an execution. A gruesome attempt to make two people unsee what they might have seen on that night. Mel Mitchell had a long conversation with a Weatherford Police Department investigator involved in reopening the case 20 years ago. Well, that's when that's when I made him very uncomfortable talking about the DNA. Like, man, he was he was scared. He was very he was very, very concerned speaking about the DNA. I mean, he couldn't look at me in the face and he's literally pawing at the ground like I mean, he was shaking. And so, because he was trying to deny the DNA at first. He's like, well, I don't know where it'd come from. And I'm like, that's funny because you had a front page newspaper article. And I was like, I explained the whole picture, what he looked like and everything. And that's when he started getting really, really nervous. I'm like, so where would that DNA have come from? One of the problems is that the department has been routinely caught going back on its word about the case. and, if we want to be frank about it, have perhaps even misled the community. Back in the early 2000s, in what looks to me to be a stunt to moderate public discourse turning against the department with regard to the case, the local newspaper ran a front-page story accompanied by a dramatic photo of detectives announcing they were reopening the investigation and making a determined effort to solve Shelley and Vincent's murders. Now that's good publicity. But if you recall, some of the most compelling witnesses with allegations pointing to certain suspects told me they were never interviewed during this supposed reinvestigation. Mel Mitchell, when she looked at what they were promising and what they actually did, found a very big difference. What would it mean to you to solve this case? Why are you so fired up about this case? I think for me, it's digging into it and talking to as many people as I have over this time period and including former law enforcement. you know there's a deep sense of a cover-up even though we don't know 100% what the cover-up is or entails it's pretty hard to deny that it was pretty much a cover-up I mean you can't be this stupid as a whole department to make this many mistakes and so the more I would start digging this the the more irritated I would get because you just have to look at this and think okay this has to be intentional like this has to be intentional to have this many mistakes all over the place and to have this kind of evidence lost and, oh, I can't find this or the whole scene was completely trampled. I mean, just it's kind of mind blowing. And to me, it would mean that, you know, whoever is behind all this or whoever was involved, you know, I think that they should they should have to pay the consequences for it. It's just, you know, because the fallout, getting to know these two families, the dynamics the fallout these two families have been through since these two kids murders is just horrendous. I mean, it's been devastation. And then on top of that, like we talked to the witnesses, they've been severely affected, horribly affected. I mean, some of them were threatened. Some of them have been harassed. I mean, some of them like left the state. And so this is almost a closure for them too, because they're still looking over their shoulders, you know, 42 years later, they're still afraid to this day. And so when I was talking to them, like, you know, it's not just about solving it for these two kids and their families, but it's also just kind of giving closure for you guys too and everything y'all went through and knowing you can finally like kind of lay your head down at night and not think, okay, do I still need to keep looking on my shoulder because I'm still afraid of something or someone? So it's a lot deeper than just the two kids because of course that's the primary, but it's got a massive ripple effect in this. That sentiment is a delicate aspect of every cold case, one we rarely consider. the effect the case has on witnesses who have had the nerve to stand up and talk about their experiences. They deserve justice as well. I need to go back now to a thread of the case we touched upon earlier, because as I got word that Frosty Cauliflower was willing to speak to me, a familiar name came back up. How would Weldon Kennedy in that whole scenario fit into the murder of two teens in Weatherford, Texas, when there's really no connection between the two? so in the late 1970s weldon kennedy had been caught for stealing a whole bunch of radio shack calculators like the really nice ones back in the day that everybody had to have you know like 65 a piece well he'd stolen a whole truckload of these calculators and he turned around sold them to people or like businesses in weatherford and they were turned around selling for like 10 15 dollars a piece and so that's kind of how they got caught where you know of course feds are looking into what happened to these calculators. Lo and behold, there's local businesses selling the calculators. He did a little bit of time, I believe, for that. And then afterwards, he got pretty heavy into bringing in some migrants from Central and South America to work in his factory. Then Mel locked on to another thread, which dovetails perfectly with what I learned next from Frosty Cauliflower. hour. I found out they were trying to get an indictment against another classmate of the teens at the time. And what was the motive surrounding that? That Shelly may have had a prior relationship with this individual before she started dating Vincent, but I haven't been able to find anyone that can verify that. In fact, we found a woman who claims that she was dating this individual at the time of the murders. I mean, not to say boyfriends don't cheat. We know that, but we haven't been able to find anybody else to really substantiate that claim. Within all of these different stories, the truth is there. And it's almost as if it's so close, you can reach out, touch it. I believe in this case that there are witnesses. And I do believe that there are people out there today alive that absolutely know what happened. And I'm hoping that by doing this podcast that they will maybe be willing to finally come forward and give the family members and even the witnesses just some closure to all this. Because if others are willing to come forward and are still very fearful to this day, why not more? because it's not just these few witnesses. I just hope that someone does the right thing and kind of, I mean, even if it's anonymously, I don't even care. Just someone that comes forward and gives us the actual rundown of what happened because we know enough that if we hear the right story, we're going to know, okay, that's it. Now we know. That fits into all the pieces we have. That's what happened. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict? A villain? A nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt It cause so much harm at every single level if the British establishment of this is wrong Listen to Doubt The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the On Purpose podcast I'm joined by Luke Combs, award-winning country music artist and one of the most authentic voices in music today Luke opens up about success, self-doubt, mental health and what it really takes to stay true to who you are when your life changes overnight. I hate fame. I hate the word celebrity. I hate those words. They make me uncomfortable. But I think when you get to a certain point, the fame or the success or the influence, it just accentuates and exacerbates the inherent person that you are. The guy that says he's always going to be there and that will do anything to be there is the only guy that's not there. I'm in Australia when Bo was born. My whole identity is that no matter what, I'm going to prioritize my wife and my children over my job. I dread the conversation with my son. What do you think you'd say? Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. As my investigation began to wind down, I was able to land an interview with someone we all believed would never speak. A few episodes back, I mentioned that Mel and I were searching for Frosty, trying to find and convince him to talk about what he knew. As it turned out, it was Lori Cates who tracked Frosty down and decided to make a cold call and visit him in person. And just as Mel and Lori had suspected, Frosty was not only full of new information, but he claimed to know what happened to Shelly and Vincent on the night they were murdered. I'm recording this call for my podcast, Paper Ghost Season 5. Is it okay, Ernest Cauliflower, if I use your voice for the podcast? Yes, but call me Frosty. Okay, I'll call you Frosty. We'll get to... Ernest was dead. Okay. So tell me about Shelly. You saw a lot of her while she was growing up. I did with her early years, because when she started getting a little bit, I guess, up in her teens, I didn't see as much of her because, I don't know, I'd moved away from home and I was starting to be in the life. I was doing my own thing. She was like, everybody loved her and it didn't matter where she's at, she wasn't going to shut up. She was going to chime in and say her two points and giggle and cut up. And so tell me a little bit about your brother. What kind of guy is Ronnie? He is. but uh the only reason I say this is because he's just uh me and him don't get along and it's not I love him and everything but he hates me he blames me for a lot of things and I was working on an oil rig when all this went down but because I lived out there in that life he acted like that that might have been part of it he's got a he's got a real real grouchy attitude I want to tell you something about Ronnie he loves me He loved her and did it. He'd tell me how, even after we didn't have a good rest, he'd tell me how him and her would wake up the next day and eat cold pizza together and how she called him. She didn't call him Ronnie, she called him Dad. Lori Cates tracked Frosty down. He said he would chat with me. I called him. I texted him, but he never responded. Then Mel Mitchell paid him a visit, and he agreed as long as Mel was there in the room with him. And based on what he told Lori and Mel, Frosty was going to clear several things up. He says he knows what happened and who was behind both murders. But there is a part of this the families are not going to want to hear. Tell me a little bit about this lifestyle. So, you know, how do you get into it? How do you become frosty? I started off being an addict. And as most addicts, everybody gets in trouble. And if you're going to use, you're either going to sell, or you're going to have to do something to steal, or you're going to have to do something. Well, I didn't believe in stealing. So I would try to find something cheap and turn it back on the market to get into the life. How did you learn how to start cooking meth? I wasn't eating for the money. I was in it just, man, everybody stayed high to my little crew and we had a good time. It made it hard for them to get us. Frosty said he kept his business small. He didn't want to draw much attention to himself, but everyone wanted that dope he was cooking. They just couldn't get enough of it. It's hard to deposit $50,000 cash in your bank and account for it, right? Yes. I never would get over about 20 or 30, and then I'd just stop selling, and we'd just party down until we'd run out of money. Frosty Cauliflower has this rugged look about him. White, wiry hair receding. Kind of a pockmarked face. busy eyes, and a cockiness that comes from the life he led and the information he harbors, along with the knowledge of the underworld he was once such a big part of in Parker County. As many who have seen the television series Breaking Bad understand, when you run the best product, you begin to develop the most power and control of the market, but also attract the biggest players in the game. And who did you sell to for the most part? A middleman and then the middleman spread it out around users or? I had some helpers. I had a helper named Dennis Frost. He gave me the names of his helpers, as he called them. One particular guy who Frosty became best friends with was his main connection to the bigger players. And this guy, whom Frosty trusted without question, would go out into that world and mix with everyone. One day, not long after the murders, the guy came back with some news. A narrative of what took place when Shelley and Vincent were murdered. And who would be your biggest competition at the time? Well, now, there's a lot of people worried about that, but there's so much money out there, I didn't even worry about it. I got the formula. See, some people that missed that didn't even know I knew their formula. Because it made a certain product that they just knew whose it was. And the feds had come to town and they'd stop cooking. And they couldn't understand why the feds wouldn't leave town. It's because I just kept throwing it out on the streets. And, yeah, then finally they figured out, because I figured it out, was pumping it out. But they didn't have the quality control like I did. When you do it, you don't want to do trash or a week. You want to do the best that you can make. So I'd always try to do the best I could with it. And where did you cook it? I mean, you can't just cook that shit anywhere, right? Yeah, you can't. I cooked it over off Barrier Street. I cooked it in the mellow effort. What you got to do is you got to run that. It goes out through a condenser, and you got to run that off until your pine soil and water discharge, and then you won't get nothing but a pine soil discharge smell. What he means is the chimney discharged the scent of pine soul, not the chemical smell of the dope. Do you ever have any run-ins with Kennedy, the sausage king there? street with this good lady and he kicked my door and I had I had stuff but it was he and all over the place and he said tell us right you got anything I told him well hell no we ain't got nothing he goes you know if we find anything it's gonna make me mad we're gonna do something to you and when he said do something to you it scared me but anyway later that night About two hours later, we're outside, and all they found was $7 in my pocket, and they found no drugs. And I said, it's just me and him, I said, pride and shame. You say I'm a drug dealer, I got $7, I'm down here at this apartment, ain't got no extra, it's the middle of July. And we're just sweating and everything else. During this raid, as they were outside, Frosty says he turned to the guy and began to talk about Shelly. And I says, whoever killed my niece is out there running loose and nobody cares. I got this blank look. You wouldn't believe what I mean. If you could see his face, you could tell he struck a nerve. He says, you know what? Talk to us, you're right. He says, this is bullshit. went there and told them guys, boys, there ain't nothing here, let's go to the house. They loaded up in five minutes, they was gone. The name I censored was a law enforcement official. The implication Frosty makes is that once he mentioned Shelly and Vincent's murders with a kind of knowing wink, they backed right off. I asked him if any of what I had heard about someone in law enforcement being a big-time dealer was true or just another one of those Texas stories that seem to grow like a healthy herd of cattle with each passing generation. Okay. This is probably the early 80s. There's a guy that's got a guy that took the sulfate dough. It takes more of a, I couldn't mess, but it takes more of a laboratory and chemicals to cook that way. He had got me to go to Houston to pick up the chemicals because you couldn't get them everywhere. And when you went and got them, it's like you had to sign a form, give them your license, and you come into this place, and the door's locked and beat on it, and they don't lock it and let you in. And when you come out, he said, don't mess around. He says, because they're watching that place, he says, get on down the road. And then I had to pull over on the side of the road and go through all the chemicals to make sure there wasn't a bug in it. But they told that if he was going to cook in Parker County, he had to give him $10,000 a month. And missed that first installment, and they busted that cook. He continues to explain that there were several dope houses all over the county where cooking took place. He said men in high positions hung around to pick up dope and collect money. and the entire doping community was, in one way or another, connected. Which was where the motivation and opportunity to kill his niece and Vincent, according to Frosty, entered the situation. And that order came directly from the top. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun. Tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity. The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth. Until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, a story gripped the UK, evoking horror and disbelief. The nurse who should have been in charge of caring for tiny babies is now the most prolific child killer in modern British history. Everyone thought they knew how it ended. A verdict, a villain, a nurse named Lucy Letby. Lucy Letby has been found guilty. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapses. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we follow the evidence and hear from the people that lived it to ask what really happened when the world decided who Lucy Letby was. No voicing of any skepticism or doubt. It'll cause so much harm at every single level if the British establishment of this is wrong. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the On Purpose podcast. I'm joined by Luke Combs, award-winning country music artist and one of the most authentic voices in music today. Luke opens up about success, self-doubt, mental health, and what it really takes to stay true to who you are when your life changes overnight. I hate fame. I hate the word celebrity. I hate those words. They make me uncomfortable. But I think when you get to a certain point, the fame or the success or the influence, it just accentuates and exacerbates the inherent person that you are. The guy that says he's always going to be there and that will do anything to be there is the only guy that's not there. I'm in Australia when Bo was born. My whole identity is that no matter what, I'm going to prioritize my wife and my children over my job. I dread the conversation with my son. What do you think you'd say? Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. China's Ministry of State Security is one of the most mysterious and powerful spy agencies in the world. But in 2017, the FBI got inside. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. This MSS officer has no idea the U.S. government is on to him. But the FBI has his chats, texts, emails, even his personal diary. Hear how they got it on the Sixth Bureau podcast. I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, no question, of his life. And that's a unicorn. No one had ever seen anything like that. It was unbelievable. This is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets Listen to the Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts I am not one to take conspiracy theories seriously, even when my better judgment tells me to take a closer look. I just think when you step into the ring of conspiracy, Your logic is tainted right away, and whatever you find seems to fit right into that conspiratorial mold. And even more dangerous, you begin to write off obvious evidence as part of the conspiracy and wind up in this sort of algorithmic echo chamber. A conspiracy is not what we have in this case. Corruption is a different animal entirely Part of it involves gaslighting the public to a very large extent And when you are in law enforcement It doesn't take a lot of people to make that happen You just need them in the right positions With the lack of movement in this case Along with the disappearing evidence I think it's safe to say at this point that corruption within the investigation into Shelley and Vincent's murders was actively going on. By whom and why? Well, those are different questions. And the answers need a federal probe coming in and taking over, which I hope will happen once word gets out. It's the only hope left for the families ever getting justice. Before we continue, I want to say up front, Some of what will be reported here is going to hurt the victim's families. There is no way around this information for me as a journalist searching for the truth. But if some modicum of hurt can lead them to closure, then I believe it's worth the pain. If you went toward Aisle, and before you got to Aisle, if you took a left at the store, he'd go back in their community, in his trailer house. Frosty is talking about where the murders took place. He then mentions two names. They got married, but anyway, they just live and not care. And I used to go out there and store. Well, come to find out, that was what was dope house. Supposedly, the kids, they came out there just wanted to score a little bit. And I didn't know if Shelly was involved in that or anything. But she wasn't in the dope world like what you think. I heard that she just wanted to buy a little bit. You know, for she was so, to me, she was so pretty and bubbly. It didn't shock me that she was going out. It shocked me that it shocked me the situation that it all happened. You know what I'm saying? More or less, I didn't know if she was even dating TV, too, you know what I'm saying? That boy, that Spanish boy, supposedly saw *** and *** out there at the same time. And they killed him. Because they scared the word to get out. And she had to start freaking out. And they came over. He told me that this girl said she had seen the bodies shaking after they'd been shot. And this guy's not alive. And I can only tell you what he said. He wasn't just somebody that stole from me. He was a friend of mine. I mean, I thought the world... this case for me is so entirely solvable. It's almost as if there is a lack of desire to seek closure. It's hard for this New Englander to fathom or even admit it exists, but there is a different form of justice in the Southwest and a strong sense of blue protecting blue. We have that up here in the Northeast to a certain extent, as well as across the country, but in the Southwest, and especially Texas, like most things, it seems to be on a much bigger scale. My daddy comes and says, I thought you had something to do with it. I wouldn't hurt that girl for all the money in the world. You know what I'm saying? I asked Frosty to go through everything one more time and add any additional information he could think of. He paused for several minutes. Then, this. Supposedly, you know, I used to run that dope circle, and that's totally, one of them was out there, it got happened out, supposedly it got happened out there like going to Azle. Before you got to Azle, if you took those little communities there that had a store turned up in there, that was a dope house. But supposedly those kids went out there to get a little bit of dope and saw a and they ended up killing that boy and Shelly freaked out and killed her. How hard this was, like I said, I was in that old dope circle for a while and was helping me get rid of some dope And he talked to them who said she was there and saw the checking body. Frosty names a source I had spoken to and said, this source witnessed the murders but had kept that knowledge from me. He also names two different men from those I have been censoring as the two individuals responsible for the murders. Names I had never heard. Adding how my source holds the key to it all. But you can use that name. You can say, saying that you told him you saw the shaking bodies after he was shot. If I knew for sure that supposedly the killer is between or one it was 22 I went back to my source the person Frosty names and I asked about witnessing any of this and if she knew the names Frosty had mentioned So, I heard about this dope house in Azel. Do you ever know about a dope house in Azel of b****s? No. I didn't mess with b****. I'm going to tell you right now, he was dangerous. And then another name came up. You know a guy named b****? Yeah, I remember. He was just another little white trash boy. Was he a doper or? I didn't, I remember his name, but I don't recall what he did. She went on to say she had no idea about the murders. She was not there, had never heard the names I was told. And then, as you can hear, she changes the subject abruptly and brings up the name of another meth cook and dealer. You know, just remember his name. I think he was darkheaded, maybe. But I don't remember. You know what somebody brought up to me the other day was ****. Yeah, I've heard that name. And that was run down by law enforcement, that lead. really hard. They really went after that pretty hard and they didn't find nothing. I asked her about Weldon Kennedy. Did she know him? What kind of guy was he? I stayed at the Kennedys. You know, if I told you, my mother had me when she was young, 16. So I kind of grew up on my own because my mother had to work. And so what I did was I stayed at the Kennedys. I was always welcome there. They was always good to me. I'm not going to say that Weldon wasn't underhanded, because he was. He hired Mexicans, you know, which was a big deal back then. Well, he was busted for that, right? I mean, he went to prison. Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was. Those people were good to me. You know, I was a lonely little kid. And I was allowed to stay at their house while my mother worked. This information I got is from a really, really, I mean, really great source. I mean, this source is so close and connected to everyone in that world. I never even seen ****, even close to Weldon. Never seen them in the same spot. It was a Kennedy sausage a lot. I can't say that Weldon was a part of anything. He was the nervous nanny that owned Kennedy Sausage. That's how I looked at him. He's being portrayed to me by a lot of people as, you know, a big player. I'm going to tell you this. I was standing right in the middle of all of the Kennedy, Kennedy Sausage. I remember the first year that Kennedy Sausage made a million dollars in part-time out there. I remember Thanksgiving and Weldon. I never saw any of the darkness that people want to portray him as. I'm not saying he wasn't up to no good. I'm saying I never saw not any of it. I mean, he was just a moneymaker. But now the opposite end of that, he was bad, bad stuff. Oh my God, he was a piece of shit. All that being said, here is the gut punch of what you've just heard. Frosty says that when investigators came to him, he told them the exact same story he gave to me. And they did nothing. Which leads me to, is Frosty the best source for information? A known admitted meth cook and dealer who spent time in prison for his deeds. Possibly not. But it's a lead that should be explored nonetheless. In a March 1983 article on the front page of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Tom Vick, the obviously young 28-year-old mayor of Weatherford, said he'd give the police department whatever it needed to solve the case. This kind of thing won't be permitted here, Vick is quoted. The people won't put up with it. Max Smith, the DA, doubled down in the same article, adding, we have a strong law abiding community here. As we know, nothing has happened since that time, over 42 years later, as I record this. And contrary to that political gibberish coming from the mouths of the powers that be in the county, the people have put up with it. And this kind of thing has been permitted. The answers are there, just waiting for someone with the moral fortitude and guts to step in, step up, and, as former Chief Arnold told Mel, do the right thing. This case epitomizes the failures of our justice system and the criminality of some to turn their head while holding out an open hand. It cannot be underscored enough that federal authorities need to be called in to clean this mess up. If they do, the victims' families and those with the courage to speak out can at least live the rest of their days knowing that Shelly and Vincent's lives, however short, mattered. I want to thank every source who spoke to me on and off the record. Your courage is admirable. Also, there is no possible way I could have produced this season and conducted the investigation I did without the boundless courage and help of Mel Mitchell and Lori Cates. They are two of the most determined, brave, and honest women I have ever had the honor of working with. This season would have never happened if Lori Cates, many years ago, had not sent me an unsolicited email asking if I could help. If you have any information about this case, please go to the Justice for Shelley and Vincent Facebook page and send a private direct message to the administrator. Your privacy will be held in the highest regard. You can also reach out to me personally at mwilliamphelps.com. Please check out my weekly podcast, Crossing the Line with M. William Phelps, where I delve into a new missing person and cold case murder each week, wherever you get your favorite shows. Paper Ghost Season 5 is written and executive produced by me, M. William Phelps Script consulting by iHeart Media executive producer, Catherine Law Production by Talk Boom Productions Audio mastering and mixing by Brandon Dicker The series theme, number 442, is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and Tom Moon I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The evidence has been made to fit. The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed. What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its vault of secrets. Listen to The Sixth Bureau on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton Eckerd. In 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. But here's the thing. Bachelor fans hated him. If I could press a button and rewind it all, I would. That's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one-night stand would end in a courtroom. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agree to date me, but I'm also suing you. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. Listen to Love Trapped on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.