Presenting: Julia on IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson

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Try risk-free for 90 days right now and get $75 off with code HMDK. Visit mill.com slash HMDK. That is mill.com slash HMDK. Hey, it's me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. We are officially back with a brand new season of Wiser Than Me. To celebrate your out-of-this-world support for our show, we've been brewing up something special, a Wiser Than Me Mirror Traveler. It's a versatile, sustainable travel mug to keep your coffee hot and your tea cozy all year round. It's perfect for wise women on the go. Head over to wisethanmeshop.com to grab yours now. Okay, here's the show. Hi, Wiser Than Me listeners. It's Julia. I have a really exciting episode to share with you today. I recently had the honor of being a guest on IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Each week on the show, the former First Lady and her brother team up to share personal stories and offer heartfelt advice as they tackle life's big and sometimes messy questions. In the episode you're about to hear, we talk about some of the powerful lessons that I've learned from older women while making Wiser Than Me. We also dive into how friendships can evolve as we get older and why building community matters at every age. It was a thoughtful and honest and it was a really fun conversation and I'm so excited for you to hear it. This stage in life for me, for me personally, is the first time that I've been completely free. Yeah, there's a real release. Where every choice that I make in my life is not about my husband, not about his career, not about what my kids need or where they're going. It's totally about me. Hey, you. Hi Craig Robinson. How's it going? It's going well, Mish. How you doing? I'm doing pretty good. I'm digging that aqua. This is one of my favorite pieces. But listen, we've had a great conversation about friendship. Oh yeah, today. Today we're going to talk about. But today we're going to talk about friendships as we age. And I was finding it hard when I was sort of researching this topic and thinking about it. Being a guy in a committed relationship, I never thought that when you're in a committed relationship there's the potential of still being lonely. Yeah. Because of course I still have little kids at home, so I'm running around chasing them. But it's a phenomenon. Yeah, and I think it's particularly true with women. Maybe it's the nature of men and women and how they sort of maneuver in the world. But I have a number of female friends in relationships who, but for their outside friendships would perhaps feel lonely within their relationships. And I don't want to generalize, but their men's habits are different. Sometimes they don't want to chit chat. They don't want to catch up. So I have a lot of friends who, you know, they love their partners, but they, you know, find their friendships and relationships outside of that unit. But I don't know if you experience that among your friends. I think what I perceive and what's actually happening now is making me think there is a gap there because I'm like a guy. I'm the kind of guy who is assuming everything is going fine until somebody says, oh, you know what, my wife and I are getting divorced. Or, you know, my wife's telling me she's lonely and I don't know what to do. I haven't had that happen. But I can- People can be lonely inside of very healthy relationships. Yeah. I don't share the same hobbies in common. If you have different temperaments, even different life patterns and throughout my life, especially now that I'm getting older, I work very hard to maintain my relationships with my friends, whether we live in the same city or not. Living in the White House and being in a position that was pretty isolating, right? Not too many people can walk up to my door and knock on it and say, just drop and buy for a cup of tea, right? So as a result, people couldn't have our phone numbers. They couldn't for security reasons. So there was a wall between me and my friends that was real. And as a result, I got into the habit of making sure that I was continuously reaching out, finding ways to bring people in, planning events, planning trips with my friends because absent me doing that work, it was just really hard for a friend to call me over those eight years and say, hey, girl, want to go to the movies or you want to go on a trip with me. But I found that that habit has served me well now that I'm in my 60s and I can even foresee how beneficial that is as I get even older because my friends and I, we just have a routine of how we connect no matter where we are in the world. We have habits, routines, rituals that we do amongst ourselves and even with our daughters as they get older, with our kids as they get older that has helped us sustain our relationships. But a lot of people haven't invested that kind of time. Yeah. And I've all, I mean, you're so good at keeping your friendships close and inviting people in. Well, we're going to talk a lot about a relatable relationship, friendship questions today. And we've got a fantastic guest. We do. We have both been excited about this. Yes. I think anybody, I mean, with a brain would be excited about our next guest. And I'm talking about Julia Louis-Dreyfus and she's an Emmy Award winning actress and comedian known for her roles in Veep and Seinfeld, of course. But Julia is currently hosting a popular podcast called Wiser Than Me. And I'm excited to hear about that too. But I have so many, a varied number of questions that we might get off topic, but we'll have to bring it back in. Because you're really fan girl in here by the way. I'm really excited about that. So without any further ado, Julia, come join us. Oh, there she is. Hey. So happy you can be here. I'm so happy to be here. I am so delighted to be here. And I was, I'm sure you don't remember this, Michelle, but I went to a SoulCycle class with you. Oh my gosh. I did. I went through my deep SoulCycle phase. You did. You were kind of an addict. I was. Yes. I was. Yeah. Yeah. We went right around the White House. That's right. So how did you find your SoulCycle? And had you been doing SoulCycle? No, I had never done it before. I do other things to work out, but I hadn't done SoulCycle. Yeah. Didn't care for it. Hey. But I was happy to try it. It's an acquired taste. It is, in fact. Yeah, it is. Yeah. I think she's the only one in our family who liked doing it. Yeah, I went through. I'm like that with activities, you know? It's like potato chips. I can't just eat one. Once I, you know, link into something, I'm like all in. You'd like to hike? I do, but I don't hike as much as I did just like I don't do SoulCycle as much. I've had to vary as I've gotten older. My workouts because they mess up the body in certain ways. Yeah. So SoulCycle. You really have to differentiate it up. Yeah. You gotta diversify. So tell us about Wiser Than Me. Are you having fun? Yeah. It's really, you know, the genesis of it was that I saw this movie, this documentary, with Jane Fonda about her life. Yeah. You guys probably saw that. I saw that one. Yeah. And I was so struck by the breadth of her life, the fundity, if she'd been done so many different things. And I got me thinking about, wow, there's so many women out there that are older. Yeah. I mean, at the time she was 85, I believe, that are older, that have had these extraordinary lives and we're not hearing from them. That's right. So I wanted, so I was like, I need to, oh, I've got to find a podcast that talks to those women. Of course, there wasn't one. So then I just started to do it. And it's really taken off. So it's nice. And it's an opportunity for, talk about friendships. It's an opportunity. I've made some real friends doing this, including Jane, by the way. So we're doing a lot of sort of political environmental activism together now as a result of this, which is great. Yeah. Yeah. I think the concept is beautiful and it's necessary. We talk about this a lot. How women, as we age, we get pushed out of the picture. Yeah, it's incredible. Right when we're, you know, as you know, now that I'm 60. Yeah. This is really the first time in my life where I feel completely me and I can absolutely embrace my wisdom. Yes. I mean, because I think we as women, we spend most of our lives saying, well, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. We qualify everything. We apologize. We apologize. We don't want to put our opinions on the table because maybe we're wrong. We're always hedging, you know, because in the back of our minds, we weren't raised with the certainty of maleness that, you know, kind of the confidence that young men in their 30s have, which they haven't earned. They just have it. Mm hmm. Yeah, we don't start feeling that and owning that until our 50s and 60s at a time when we start to be treated as invisible in society. And the notion that you are capturing that wisdom in a systematic way is powerful. Yeah, I think it's critical for both for the culture generally. It's not just for women. It's for men. Frankly, we're just missing an opportunity. Yeah. I mean, these women are, I think of them as being on the front lines of life and they can report back to us what they've seen and what we should or should not be doing. And as people, not as just as female people, but as people. So I am thrilled to do it. It's a lot of work because I want to come to the table really well versed in what they've done and who they are. And we're talking to scientists and novelists and, you know, everybody. And I'm learning a lot as I go. Yeah. And this may be an unfair question. What's one of the most fascinating things you've learned in this process from one of these women or a couple of things that you would say have stuck with you? No, is a complete answer is something that stayed with me. I'm sure you've heard that before, but it sure is a meaningful sentence. And and particularly as women, we are sort of our culture indoctrinates us to to put a caveat onto a no. I know I should, but I can't, you know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Women, we have so many landmines and barriers and don'ts and limitations. It's, you know, I mean, Craig, you're the the guy at the table. But I think it's important for all guys listening, especially men raising daughters to realize that that difference, you know, and that that thing that inadvertently as you are loving and raising these beautiful girls. There are so many rules that make us small baked in without our knowing. Yeah. You know, and I wish I could. I mean, I well, I remember people saying, oh, well, she's a female doctor. Mm hmm. Yeah, as opposed to just she's a doctor. Yeah. You know, though, this is good. We have to remember this for the next time you're here to talk about that topic. Hey, Prime members, did you know you can listen to wiser than me ad free on Amazon music? Download the Amazon music app today to start listening ad free. If you're like the wise women on this podcast, you are really, really busy. That's why my idea makes appliances that handle things while you move on with your life. Like the one touch auto fill French door fridge with a water dispenser that fills your cup perfectly. So you don't have to sit there and supervise water. Every my idea appliance is made for people who already do a lot and especially for those who notice when things aren't working and quietly fix them anyway. You've learned to handle it all, but sometimes even the best multitasking can't cover for things that don't work. 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Seriously, you'll flip for hair that feels like new. Shop K18 mask at Sephora or get 10% off your first order at k18hair.com with Code Wiser. That's k18hair.com and use the code Wiser. We're here to talk about friendship and loneliness as older adults. As we get older and longer. As we get older in life. We have a really good question today talking about sort of being an adult and having this very vibrant friend life that all of a sudden is not there anymore. I found this topic really interesting. I think now's a good time to have Natalie, our producer, read the question. And then we can dive in. Yeah. Natalie. Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Andrea and I'm 40 years old. My mom, Sharon, is 68 years old and has always had a meaningful and wide circle of friends. Friends from high school and college and friend she made while she and my dad raised my sister and me. She also had an extensive social network through my dad's colleagues. He was a college professor at a university in Texas and the campus brought them many close friendships. Friends they'd shared dinner parties with, joined on weekend trips and seen nearly every morning for the Run Club on campus. My mom was also fortunate to be close with her own coworkers at her job in the college admissions office. But a little over a year ago, my dad retired and they moved back to North Carolina where they both grew up. My sister and I stayed in Texas and I think I saw this coming. But when I talked to my mom recently, she admitted she felt like she'd lost nearly every friend she'd ever made. I know she'd already experienced some strain on her friendships in Texas, whether due to retirements or illness or divorce. But this big move means all the social structures that once supported her friendships have vanished and with them her connection to her cherished communities. So my question is, how can my mom reframe her thinking around friendship during this pretty radically new chapter in her own life? Whether that be gaining enthusiasm for making new friends in North Carolina or maintaining connections to her old friends without the help of built-in community and networks. As her daughter, I am especially concerned with helping her to answer this question because of a fear she revealed to me that I really hadn't seen coming. She told me she's actually feeling a brand new resistance to connecting with people because she knows that eventually more life change will just lead to more friendship loss. How can I help my mom in her new feelings of loneliness and maybe reinvigorate her desire to make new friends in this brand new stage of life? Thanks for your thoughts, Andrea. There's a lot to unpack in that question. And can I dive in? I mean, there is so much going on there. She's obviously, this is a woman who wrote that, right? A daughter. Right. She is obviously a very devoted daughter. So to begin with, it brings up the idea of getting older and starting to parent your own parents. Oh, yes. Which I've certainly been through and going through and I know you guys have as well. So, and that's an amazing flipperoo that you never anticipate when you're younger. It doesn't even occur to you that all of a sudden, you know, she's worried about her mom making friends. Aren't, isn't it usually your mom's worried about you making friends? Exactly. Exactly. So that's an incredible thing. But I see it as very surmountable. You know, we, we, we recently lost our home in this horrible L.A. fire. And so our community is gone. Gone. Where we raised our children. And so I'm sort of wrestling with the same thing. And what I'm finding is that if the focus is not necessarily meeting a friend, which has kind of a, I'm not saying it's a bad focus, but it's a different stressor. It feels a different stressor, oppressive, right? Yeah, it's like, you're, yeah, it's you're putting pressure on yourself. And maybe if the focus is, and this is what I'm trying to do, getting involved in community where you are, you will find your people. That's what I think. Certainly that's what I'm trying to do as we kind of work our way through this moment. And my own parents recently went through the same thing that this woman's parents went through. That is to say they moved into a new community. And it was hard for them. But particularly my mom became involved in this garden community. And I mean, there's something about taking action that can open up doors, I think. You're absolutely right. One of the other things I hear in this question is, you know, that makes me kind of sad, but something to tie into is that the listener's mother has expressed a fear and a hesitation around the possibility of building new community because of the potential for loss. And I think that's worth her daughter, their family trying to unpack a little bit, right? I agree. It is completely right that building community is the focus. But if you're afraid of that, if the very thought of, you know, doing that work and taking that kind of action makes you afraid because you could lose something. Yes. Oh, it's like, well, then you're you could be stuck. Yeah. You know, it's part of friendship is taking that risk of loss. And it doesn't change because we're older. In fact, that's always the case with friendship. It's always the case with friendship. But I think specific to aging, you will lose folks. Exactly. You are going to lose them. Naturally. That's just. That's a part of it. That's the only way to go. I know. And I'm not quite there yet. But we're headed there. Yeah. God willing in a weird way. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe doing a deep dive into that fear is probably worth it for her mom. Yeah. To do. I had to probably in my position as First Lady, just as an object point for the listening mother. I mean, one could have argued that there was every reason in the world for me in that position, me and my husband to be afraid of making new friends. Right? Yeah. Very good point. Yeah. I mean, you sort of think about it. And in fact, I know one of the things that Craig said when Barak ran and won, you may want to share that was. No new friends. Right. You said don't make new friends. I said that to Misha and Barak. I was like, watch out. And I couldn't have been more wrong. Right. And. Oh, but that's fascinating. Yes. Yeah. Because of the automatic feeling, which would be natural, is you got to watch who you associate with in this position. I mean, we don't know what their intentions are. Precisely. You know, so I understood the sentiment of the warning and as my big brother, you know, and we, we came from a already big established community. Right. So it wasn't like we were going into this thing without a support. Right. But the difference for me was that I still had little kids. Right. I mean, our, my girls were 10 and seven moving into a new neighborhood, a new community. And my whole goal was to normalize their experience to not make them feel like these odd little kids with secret service that were outsiders, which meant that I couldn't. I didn't have the luxury of saying no new friends. Right. Because when you're raising your kids, you have to be a part of a bigger community that they're in. Yeah. Otherwise you're screwed. Otherwise you're screwed. Right. It was exactly the way it was. So that push, that necessity was the absolute best thing, you know, leaning into that fear, into that caution. It was the best thing that I did for myself and for my family. And my point to the listener that I learned is that it was absolutely worth it. And it was probably a very scary experience because it was not only we not only face the risk of loss, disappointment. But we could have met people who were meant us no good, who we couldn't trust, who, you know, gossiped about us, who, you know, sold stories. There were many things that could have gone wrong. Right. But the truth is that most people are really good folks. Yeah. You know, even when you're in a high powered position, most people are open to the new. And I would say too, in that circumstance, you're there, you're sort of looking at the community where your children are going to school. You need to get to know these parents as a parent. You must. Yeah. And so your goal is not necessarily going in to make friends. Your goal is to understand where they are. And then out of that comes relationships that you could count on. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty interesting, actually. It's really it's like fame on steroids. Exactly. It really is. Because I had a I've had that on a much smaller scale. Same kind. You know, when you're a famous person, it's weird getting out there sometimes. And you and people approach you and you're not sure what their intentions are about. So if there's a way to I don't know what through an action, through a community, through the where there's sort of common ground. Yeah. As there was at school, for example. I mean, I don't know how your husband did it. Well, he was dragged into it along with me because he also had the barrier of no time. Right. I mean, but in the face of that, because of my focus and determination and his interest, it was like, no, you got to go to parent teacher conference. And he wanted to go. Yeah. It's like, even if you don't have to go, you have to go. Right. You know, you have to get the school normal normalized to you being the type of engaged parent that you were before election night. That's right. And you were the father that went to parent teacher conference. Right. You were the father that would coach your girl's basketball game. Right. League. And he did. I know he did. But all of this is to say to our listener for her mother is it's worth the risk. People will be waiting out there with open arms. People are kinder, even though it doesn't feel that way these days. I've been in our country and I've been in every angle of it and it doesn't change overnight. And the vast majority of American people are good people. Yeah. And they want to connect. They want to connect. And connection is the answer. Yeah. Connection is the answer. I love that. I love that. Yeah. I also want to address a little bit because Andrea is trying to help Sharon navigate this. To your point, the daughter becoming the mother. Tell me about it. The husband is still there. And I totally lost him. I know. I know. Oopsie. Oopsie. It's like that's why I'm here. Sorry, sir. She's not a widow. She's not a widow. Although it sort of sounds like she is. But that's my point. I mean, this community shouldn't just be her community. Tell me about it. He should be trying to help out. We're going to bring the male voice. And I'm just saying this because when we were talking about this, this was such a foreign concept to me. As a man. As a man. Just the kind of guy that I am that I would want. First, I would want to know that my wife is suffering from this loneliness. Because if we up and moved to North Carolina, I'd be trying to find somebody to play hoops with or golf with or go to the cigar store with or whatever. I wouldn't be trying to help her get inserted in the community. But I think that should be a team effort as opposed to just an individual. It's good to have a partner. And she has a partner. So it's time for her partner to step up. So that's some advice that we could give Andrea is talk to your dad. Talk to your dad. Get your dad involved in this too. It's 100%. Where is dad? Is he sitting in the chair doing the same thing? Or an over and over again? Or is he trying to think of ways for them to creatively connect together and then in their community? Great, great point. Yeah. Craig. Well, I appreciate it. Robinson. So do you think that you in your marriage have you focused on? We're not at a point. But think ahead. Well, I'm thinking, all right, I'll think ahead because we're not at a point now. We're so busy. But around the corner there. But when the kids get old enough to go to college. How old are the youngest ones again? 15 and 13. So we've got six years, six years and six years. Those by like that. We'll be empty nesters. And our plan is to figure out the most optimal place to be where we can enjoy them the most. Yep, that's smart. But we're not going to. We're not planning on jessing our friends because we're empty nesters. And I've always thought you all do a great job of that with your friends because your girls are grown and you intentionally get together with your friends on a regular basis. Yeah, you have to be intentional. Yes. Yeah, I do the same thing. But I have advice for you when your kids, when the younger kids leave in five years, not six, by the way. Yeah, five and a half. Yeah, you're right. But anyway, what I want to tell you is you just make sure that after they leave all their bed, the sheets on their bed are high quality sheets. And that bed is the most comfortable bed they ever slept in in their life and they'll always come back. Oh, gosh. Yeah, we call this creating. I'm actually not kidding you. That's true. No, no, we, Barack and I, we are all about creating what we call the attractive nuisance. Thank you. We just, we want to make it so that you want to be back here. And we're starting, they're old enough now, right? Because there's that period when they just leave and they're in their early twenties and they're just like, bye. See ya. We're living our lives and we're so happy to be sleeping on a dirty mattress and in college. And they're just now getting to the point where they hang around just a little, a couple of days longer because the tub is clean, right? Yeah, that's right. And they're bath salts. They're bath salts. They smell good and appreciate. But they appreciate. There's a lot of stuff in their fridge. That's right. That's right. That's what they say. They're like, I can't actually eat. I like the sheets idea though. That's a tricky one because they wouldn't necessarily figure that out. They get used to the foulness. That's right. That's right. Spring invites a reset. Windows open, shelves cleared, only what's useful and well made kept in rotation. Closets can follow the same rule. Fewer pieces, better pieces, nothing wasteful. If it's not versatile, thoughtfully constructed and built to last, it doesn't deserve the hanger. That's where Quince stands out. Elevated fabrics, clean cuts and pricing that makes choosing quality over quantity feel both sustainable and smart. 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Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to qince.com slash wiser for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash wiser. Julia, I want to ask you a question. What are some of the strategies that you use to keep your friends who are your friends? Well, I've got friends from different sections of my life, right? We travel a lot together. And my group of friends from elementary school, we try to have a reunion once a year somewhere. We all get together and it's so funny you become, it's like you're 12 again. We start howling, laughing over the dumbest things you ever heard of in your life. And so I make, particularly nowadays, I'm making a real effort to have adventures with these people. Yeah, travel is a good thing. We do a lot of that stuff. Joining crafts, taking up hobbies with your friends, trying some, so you don't... What hobbies have you taken up? Well, we've had, I've had girlfriends who have organized some Zumba classes, some hip hop classes that we've said to do more of. So I'm saying to our listeners, Sharon, some of the ideas, it's like, you can get your girls together from around the country to try a new thing. They can come and visit you and you set up a cooking class or you learn how to knit or you take up tennis. Right now, several of my girlfriends have gotten into playing tennis and we don't always get to play together. But when we are together, now that there are many who have taken lessons and taken up the sport, we'll go find a court, we'll hit, and that has become a bonding opportunity for us. By the way, tennis I heard is supposed to be so good for aging. Did you hear that? Yeah, I've heard it. It has something to do with the, it's the mind-eye coordination. I'm not sure exactly. And also the lateral movement as well as the counting. Yep. But, and I can't say anything more than that, but anyway, do it. Yeah, yeah. Just do it. Well, the advice is that learning something new with your friends or with a new group of people, that's another, if we're talking about ideas that we have for building community, new community or sustaining old community, that's, you know, I mean, a lot of my friends, we just figure out something new we want to learn, we want to try and we do it together. It's more fun to do it together. But intentionality is, as you mentioned, Julia is a word for the day. And if Sharon goes to her new place and she sits in her fear and her loneliness and she bemoans what she lost and doesn't think about ways of viewing this as a new opportunity to stay open and to meet new people and not to focus on the possibility of loss, there are so many ways to break out and not be alone. That's right. I think we live in a culture nowadays and it's not just older people, but unfortunately, younger folks who have lived through COVID, they've gotten too attached to their phones, they live online. I mean, this is why studies are showing that we're seeing unprecedented levels of loneliness and anxiety because we've gotten out of the habit of building friends, building community, or the understanding that as humans, that's something that we need. We need each other. Yeah, it is not a luxury. Yeah, right, exactly. It's a necessity. Right, right. Our phones are not a necessity. Our phones are a luxury. And they cannot replace the thing that community and friendship provides to us regardless of the age, but especially as we get older. And because we know that we're going to experience loss, that that's the end of the story. And I would want Sharon to keep that muscle of community building active. Yes. Because it is a muscle. If you get out of the habit of starting a new, learning something new, that's what's ahead of me. I'm 61 and all I'm thinking about in the future is what new things am I going to learn? What are you going to learn? Right now, I'm focused on tennis. Yes. I don't know. Maybe I'll go back to the piano one day. It was an instrument that I started to play as a little girl. Haven't touched it since then. But maybe, maybe, I'll find the time to start taking lessons. I'm doing tennis too. My husband gave me tennis lessons for my birthday. So I'm going to do that. And I'm taking French lessons now. Okay. From scratch, had you ever studied? I know. I do know some French, but I'm trying to take it up a level now. That's my goal. I hope I can do it. But all these new activities for Sharon are an opportunity, especially if you do them in groups, if you sign up for a tennis clinic, you're going to meet somebody. Totally. I would just say don't do things in isolation. In solo. Yeah. Take some classes. Yes. Go into community. Join a gym. And as we get older, we should embrace the fact that we have more time. Yeah. I mean, we aren't parenting our kids anymore. They are parenting us. Yeah. We're not worrying about whether they're getting home on time or whether they did their homework. I mean, this stage in life for me, for me personally, is the first time that I've been completely free. Yeah. There's a real release. Where every choice that I make in my life is not about my husband, not about his career, not about what my kids need or where they're going. It's totally about me. And Sharon, if she thinks about it like that, wow, she's got a new freedom. She's starting over in a new city. Yes. There's so much to learn and to see and to do. It's like this is when we start living, ladies. Yeah. This is the age. When we're free. Yeah. Well, you both have talked about maintaining friendships. Have either of you, Julia, have you or Misha, have you lost any friends at the stage? Have you and if so, what are some strategies on how to bounce back from that? Well, it sort of depends on what the circumstances are. I mean, I've lost friends. I've had a couple of friends die and that has been devastating because it was just truly unfair of the universe. So I'd like to lodge a complaint. But so that's just a lot of grief to reconcile. And grief is sort of a separate, I mean, grief from actual loss of life. It's its own thing. But then I've also lost friends because we sort of moved on. And there's something kind of freeing about that. A couple of relationships that were a little bit toxic had me doubting myself too much and had games and stuff. And there was a moment in which it was like, oh, oh, yeah, right. I don't have to do this anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And how about you? Oh, for sure. For sure, both. Both and, you know, and I've experienced loss of friends throughout my life. I mean, one of my best friends from college died suddenly of lymphoma at the tender age of 20 in our 20s. And like you said, that's a different kind of loss than losing your grandmother or losing someone in their natural order. And I think for me, that loss woke me up at a time in life when I was just starting to define myself as a young adult and a young professional. That was the time in my life where I thought, well, what am I doing with my life? She lost hers. And there was no reason she was one of the sweetest, kindest people that I ever knew. So it made me think, well, do I really want to finish out this life on the 47th floor as an associate in a big corporate law firm? Sounds fabulous. Is that my fate? Is that why I'm left here and she, you know, and the answer to that was, nah, there's got to be something more. No. And what am I afraid of? And that decision as a result of that loss opened my eyes to not the nonprofit world, city government, public service, you know. So that loss turned out to be one of the things that provided me with the foundation of who I am. But there are definitely the friendships that, like you said, Julia just sort of ran their course, you know. That's OK. And I, as I age, I am more grateful every day of the friendships that I've invested in and maintained. Yeah, I get to. They are my lifeblood. And I love my husband and we are dear friends. But we don't do the same things all the time. We have different interests. And I think that's healthy. It is completely healthy, you know. And we have wonderful times apart and we travel differently and you go off with his friends in golf and I'll hike a mountain, which he's not going to do, you know. Definitely not. So I would hope that for Sharon and her husband that it becomes even more important with him alive that they continue to build together and separately. By the way, they're still young. She's 68. Yeah, really. Come on. Not even 70. Yeah. That's not the time to tap out. Do not tap out. Too much. This is just the beginning, you know. It only gets better. Well, just for clarity for Andrea. Yes, yes. Let's give Andrea some strategies to take back to Sharon. And the biggest one I'm hearing is your community, right? I actually think she should start by talking to her dad. Okay. That was on my list too, but that was down for her. Bring dad into the conversation. Bring dad into this situation. This is not her burden alone. Yeah. But community, community, community. Surely she has some interests that they can cultivate. She was a professor, correct? Do I get that right? I think her husband was. The husband is the professor. But she was a professional. She was a professional and she worked at the university. So she's got interest. The second thing I would say is intentionality. It's like friendship and community doesn't happen on its own. I don't care who you are or how wonderful a person you are, whether you're shy or outgoing. Friendship requires intentionality. That's right. Planning, scheduling, prioritizing, all of it has to be a part of it. It does take work. Say yes. Say yes. Say yes. Say yes. This has been really helpful for me and I hope it's helpful for Andrea and Shannon. Thank you Julia. It's a great spending time with you. It's so nice to spend time with you. You are a wise woman. Wise-ish. Wise-ish. Wiser than most. Thank you guys. All right. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.