EP: 401 The Earth Before Adam: Satan's Fall, the Ancient Earth, and the End Game with Ryan Pitterson

Job chapter 38, where we know definitively when God is speaking to Job and saying, where were you? He's literally talking about the physical creation of the earth. And he says that the morning stars sang for joy. The morning stars sang and the sons of God shouted for joy. So we know the angels, the B'nai Ha Elohim, witnessed the creation of the earth. So that means without a doubt, they predate the earth. So right there, we have a basis to know that angels have to precede us if they were created before the earth. And if we have passages is telling us that Lucifer was in Eden, in the garden of God, in a righteous role. That has to also be before we get to Adam and Eve because he's already evil. He's already fallen. The history of our earth is so different from what we can imagine. Joy to join. The Smithsonian, if they found out about a large skeleton somewhere, was to go get it. I'm going to assume at least one person is right, because if one person's right, it busts the paradigm. It all goes back to the fallen sheriff. And the problem with the modern-day church, they have a very truncated view of the supernatural. This backdrop is just pregnant with all kinds of meaning associated with this Mount Hermon event. And this guy defects from the kingdom. That's a big deal. All right, welcome back to Blurry Creatures. It's February, but we're going to go back to the beginning. We're going to go back to before Genesis, Genesis and beyond, and talk about the world before, maybe, right? But, you know, Blurry Creatures started with an unlikely combination, Luke. Theology and Bigfoot. That doesn't make sense. That doesn't go together. But you can do that. We've got Ryan Peterson in the house, who's attorney by day, Nephilim researcher by night. Two things you wouldn't think go together, but we've made it work. You can too out there. So welcome to Blurry Creatures. Thanks for coming to our basement and hanging out with us and going back to the 80s. We're going to go back even further than that today. But we're excited that you're an author of Judgment of the Nephilim. We've had you on the show many times, the audio version, the Zoom version, the old school version. But here we are, updated to an older version, but live in studio. Yes. Thankful to have you here. Thanks for coming back on. You've got a new book in the works, right? Yes, I do. I do. It's called the Earth Before Adam. So I'm publicly dropping the name on Blurred Future. Oh, before Adam. Yes. So it is. Is that considered pre-Genesis? Yeah, absolutely. So it deals with what's commonly known as the gap theory. Literally, the civilization before the creation of Adam and Eve, which, of course, involves the angelic realm, the fall of Lucifer, and all those things. That might be a dumb question, but it's like, you know, I think sometimes people pull from Genesis to say that there is even, there's more of a pre-story even happening in the Genesis account. But we're excited because we're going to do a couple rounds with you and get into all these details. So I don't even know where you begin. Well, I'll just say this is also pretty special, Ryan, because, you know, Nate and I started this podcast, and we talk about this often, but we, you know, it was started in our basements, if you will. and we didn't have a website until 30-something episodes in. But we reached out to you because you wrote a book on the Nephilim. You've got two books, Judgment of the Nephilim, Return of the Nephilim, as you said. But it's been more than 200 episodes since we've had. And I felt like we're so overdue here in the studio. So it's really fun. Someone that took a chance on a couple of guys years ago, four or five years ago. It's just great to have you back. It's great to be back. I appreciate it. And I'm just so blown away by what God has done with this podcast. and you guys are doing amazing work and to see how much it's growing. I love the set, by the way. The set is phenomenal. It's crazy. So the only thing we need here is a little linoleum so I can get down and start doing some back spins. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Ben, let's get some. Let's lay it down out here in the front. Let's do it. Break dancing at the commercial break with Ryan. Yeah. I mean, so when did the last, your last book is what, three, four years old? Yeah. It's about, yeah. It's been about four years almost. Yeah. So the new book is, as you said, is about the time before time. This is your third book? This is my third book. I scout the trilogy. Exactly. This is the trilogy. And I really wanted to just, again, you know, I just go back to Genesis so often in my study, and I really wanted to unpack everything I think is happening in the original Luciferian rebellion. And so just to get started on it, you know, I want to just kind of set the table for how I'm approaching this in the book is I really want to deal with how God handles time. So in my second book, I spoke about that a little bit, how time for God is not linear. You know, time for God, I call it the scroll of time, that God is repeating and recycling events over and over again to foreshadow prophecy. In Isaiah 46, God said, the way you know that I am God, El Elyon, the most high God, is because I'm the only one who can declare the end from the beginning and ancient things, things that come from ancient times. And so that's God's signature. And so how does that fit into this? I think that, again, we can see that we can truly find in Scripture what happened. How did Satan fall? How does he think he's going to win? How did this ancient rebellion before humanity was created? I think we can actually find the clues to that in Scripture. I do love this, Ryan, because we just recently had an episode on time travel. The last two episodes, time travel and Satan. I know. So this is like, you're just like, you're going to mix all these things together, and we're going to get it going. Which is great, because we're on that journey as a host. We're trying to take our listeners on the journey, and this is about learning. Absolutely. And movie quotes. And movie quotes, and we're not the smartest guys. You bring the brains, so keep going. All right, all right. So, yes, Ecclesiastes, chapter 1, 9 to 11, Speaking of brains written by Solomon, the smartest man to live before Jesus came to earth. Supernaturally blessed with intelligence. This is what he said. The thing that has been is that which shall be. And that which is done is that which shall be done. And there is no new thing under the sun. Is there anything where it may be said, see, this is new? It has already been of old time, which was before us. So right here we see a principle that's being expressed by Solomon, that God is telling us that everything we think that's coming, that's new. It's all happened before. But the interesting thing about that verse, we're familiar with it. If you continue to verse 11, we get another revelation. It says, the very next verse says, there is no remembrance of former things. Neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come, which will come thereafter. So not only do things repeat, we forget. The current civilization forgets what happened in the old civilization. I think that's what happened with the pre-Adamic civilization and us, that we don't have that knowledge, but it's in the Bible to be revealed. And how can I say that? So I think, again, I'll go to another passage here. And again, we're just setting the table before we really dive into this. And this is Romans 16, where Paul writes, Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commands of the everlasting God, made known to all nations. So God is telling us that there was a secret, there's a mystery that God has hidden since the beginning of the world that is just now being revealed. And so what is this mystery about? It's about the fact that when God started creation in Genesis 1, 1-1, the original creation, He anticipated the rebellion of Lucifer, the fall of one-third of the angels, and was already putting a plan in place to not only judge Satan and the fallen angels, but to bring in a new creation, a new race that would replace them, namely us, humanity, and reconcile everything and show that his word and his way was true over Satan's. But he's kept this secret from the angelic realm until now, because obviously it's all through Jesus Christ and through the gospel. and so what does that take is it takes us to say okay well what happened in the beginning and we talk about this idea of time and things repeating in time travel and i which i think again god being existing outside of time of course you're seeing he sees all things are happening at once from the divine eternal uh perspective would you say most christians think that like that wasn't part of the plan like humans falling and the serpent in the garden And I was all like, God just got, you know, blindsided by this event. Right. Some people think that. And I think we even in our own prideful way think that when we think we can get away from something that we're surprising. But no, God can't be surprised. God can't be ambushed. And he's always obviously multiple, multiple steps ahead of everyone because God controls the entire future. And so he's guiding everything. He's weaving his will and his plan through human decision and volition and through angelic decisions. We have free will, but God is going to work around our decisions to bring about his will. And so, of course, he anticipates and knows everything, which is why, again, you have this mystery. And I think when we get to Genesis 1-1 and we can go there, I think right there, when you study it carefully, you'll see that basically what I'm stating is that there is a whole history of millions of years, if not more, In between Genesis 1, 1 and 1, 2, when the angels under Lucifer's leadership were the first original inhabitants of Earth ruling on a kingdom here and likely other planets as well. And then he instituted a rebellion against God, was punished. And that's why we see when we get to verse 2, as we're going to look at in a moment, what people think of as this kind of formless and void Earth is a judged, ruined, devastated Earth that was judged by God's divine judgment. All right, we spend a lot of time on blurry creatures asking big questions, ancient texts, missing history, creatures in the woods. But every night around 6 p.m., there's another mystery. What are we eating? And that's where Home Chef steps in. Home Chef sends real ingredients to your door. No lab experiments, no sad freezer meals, real food, real instructions that don't require you to disappear in the kitchen for hours to make. Home Chef is rated number one by users of other meal kits for quality, convenience, value, taste, and recipe. It makes it super simple, as you said, fresh food delivered, easy recipes to follow, and meals that actually take great. No mysteries here, Nate. And they also partnered with Gordon Ramsay to make some exquisite meals at home. 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Go to homechef.com slash blurry. That's homechef.com slash blurry for 50% off your first box and free dessert for life. Homechef.com slash blurry must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. So how do we find that story between the verses? Yeah, sure. Let's get right to it. Let's do it. Let's do it. So we're going to go right to the first verse of the Bible. Genesis 1-1. In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth, and the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. So that's verses 1 and 2. And so a few clues stand out right away. The first thing is the first sentence. The Bible gives no age of the earth. It just says, in the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. It's indeterminate. There's no time frame put on that. Human beings is different. The creation of humans, but the earth, there's no time put on it. And then we look here, this gets into the Hebrew. It says the earth was without form and void. And that verb there, hayah, in Hebrew, is a very different verb from the verb to be in English, the way we use it in America. So we can say it's very static. You can say, I am a lawyer. I am a Christian. Whereas there isn't really a verb to be like that in Hebrew. When you hear the word is or was in Hebrew, it implies an action, a transition. It's a dynamic verb. And so just to give some examples, you can just look in Genesis chapter 2 when God creates Adam. It says he breathed the breath of life into his nostrils and he became a living soul. That's Hayah. Sodom and Gomorrah, when the angels were rescuing Lot's family out of Sodom and Gomorrah before God destroyed it. And he said, you just don't look back at the city. And, of course, Lot's wife chose to look back. And he says she became a pillar of salt. That's haya. And so that's that same verb. So it's implying an action to place something happened there. So right off the bat, really, the real – and this is when you go back to more ancient texts and certainly ancient commentaries. They render the passage and the earth became without form and void. And then we have the next clue, those terms without form and void, tohu vabohu. In Hebrew, that term is used repeatedly to refer to a destructive judgment of God. So there's a whole part of the story we don't get, I mean, just from the beginning, right? Exactly. Ryan, you say the ancients. Do you think that this was, you know, because we are, we talk about this often on the show, we are so far disconnected from the context, if you will, the ancients had to this. So do you think that this was just like they understood by the Hebrew? Like, yeah, there was something, there's a story before the story. Our story starts and the earth is in ruin. And they were like, yeah, that's how it went. And they kind of had some, that understanding as opposed to a lot of folks probably now look at it. I mean, as humans, we look at things linearly, right? And we're like, oh, just everything happened in this order. And there's no pre-story. But oftentimes we feel like we are missing. as you're writing about it, missing the sort of context to why and how. And it's sort of we arrive on the scene and there's in the middle of a story. Exactly. And that was the ancient understanding that basically Genesis 1 is Star Wars and New Hope, right? It's episode four. We are arriving in the middle of the saga. And you can look at some translations of the ancient Hebrew Targums actually translate to the earth became a ruin and a waste, which is why in the 1800s, a lot of theologians actually called the gap theory the ruin reconstruction theory, taking it from the Targums. Then you have church fathers like Origen, for example, John Chrysostom, who openly, very explicitly wrote of pre-Adamic civilizations, of Lucifer inhabiting Earth before Adam in ancient times, obviously. So you have that. There's certainly lots of documented evidence of this in the ancient church. Old school blurry episodes. I'm surprised how many of those guys got real weird in some of their thinking. I probably had a lot of time to think about stuff. And then if you wanted to meme people, you had to send them by the mail. You sent them memes in the mail. It was like the Amish do. Between rock throwing contests, they had to have some really great discussions. We did one of those in Peru, and I won. As a reminder, but Timothy Albarino, I won. How long do you think? You're saying millions of years of... Let me get on the gas, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think so. And again, if we operate under the premise that everything is repeating, everything to come prophetically has happened in some form or fashion before, we're going to live in an era where, you know, the veil between the human realm and the heavenly realm is open. Right. Whether you talk about the millennium reign or certainly the new Jerusalem. Right. Heaven is coming down to earth. And so I believe at this time there was no need for that veil of separation before the sin of Lucifer. So when you have that type of heaven on earth existence, the passive time is so different. And so even one of the passages I talk about, I think a principal passage that talks about this is 2 Peter 3, where Peter says that the earth that then was perished, being overflowed with water, and the heavens and earth which are now are reserved as a fire and judgment. And so he's there. Peter is right there saying that there was an ancient earth that was overflow. But he's not talking about the days of Noah. He's talking about the Luciferian flood. It's interesting, too, that like that point of there being this like no veil is also how God begins Eden. And I'm not going to read that in the story, but if God's walking with Adam in the garden and the serpent's there and we know the serpent is is Satan. and he was also in that place, then it was the same thing, right? And I don't know, maybe there's not time yet then either, because it isn't until the fall of man that death enters the world, really, right? So you have this whole, I'm reading ahead, but I'm just thinking in the same way that God's like, okay, we'll do this again, and he creates the earth, and then you have a similar thing until we introduce sin into our own. And to that point, Peter, in 2 Peter 3, right after he just discusses the world being overflowed, he says, but be mindful that a day with the Lord is a thousand years, is a thousand years is a day. So right in the reference to this ancient, what I call the Luciferian flood, he gives the reminder that time is traveling much differently. And he says, be mindful of that when you think about this ancient era. When kind of going back into the research and like thinking about the megalithic dynasties, it seems like there's a long time there where they're able to build some of this stuff there and there's actual dynasties. And then those cultures all hold on to their own narrative of a deluge. So you would think that there could be like almost like their civilization wiped out. Then we start again. Then we go. You know what I'm saying? It always felt older. There's not enough time for all the megalithic stuff to make sense. And we've been there. You know, we've got to see it like the basis. Well, that would be even after this pre-civilization. Well, some of it could have been. It seems like some of it might have been before. Oh, absolutely. And that's the thing. And that's, you know, there's, in the new book, I have a whole chapter on the ancient evidence that the amount of findings that predate, you know, the common understanding of humanity starting 7,000 years ago in Mesopotamia. Obviously, Gobekli Tepe, which is about 13,000 years old. But even going beyond that, they found in Tel Aviv, Israeli archaeologists found a hearth, an actual furnace to cook food that they think is 30,000 years old. I saw this recently. So, I mean, in the Philippines, they discovered ancient fish hooks for deep water fishing. That's 46,000 years old. So we're not talking about, you know, ooga booga cavemen. We're talking about advanced humanoid civilizations. Well, this is a lot of the ancient alien theory. This is why they don't embrace the gospel. Sure, sure. Because they think Christians are like not, their timeline's all messed up. But this fits into the gods. And then Graham Hancock, even with the discoveries in Indonesia, which is like 40,000 year old, like construction, megalithic construction. It sounds like we need to readjust our timelines in a lot of ways. And we just talked through this with, I forget who we were, this conversation, maybe it was with Troy, about the idea of why there is the genealogy. And the genealogy isn't so we create a timeline back to Adam. It's so we trace Christ back to Adam, right? And you're not hitting, it's more like a, it's not a complete family tree. it's more of a highlight reel is what it seems to be. And the timing isn't the point at all. But we're obviously dovetailing out of the game. This isn't the first time we've gone here. So we've talked about the exploded like Tim Alvarino talks about the exploded planet Rahab. That's the asteroid belt. There's like this war before. Yeah, sure. We've dove into this before. But I'm trying to think, okay, so you're seeing a lot more between these two verses than the average Christian. And I think that's great. I think that's good because it feels loaded. Genesis feels very loaded. Yeah, it is. And again, and there's more to it. I mean, just again, just to pick up in verse two, even how you see the conditions, right? There's darkness over the earth, right? You can see a sign of God. That's a sign of God's judgment. If you look at prophetic passages about the great tribulation or the day of the Lord, as it's called in the Old Testament, it's a day of darkness, of gloominess. You look in Revelation and it says the stars will not give light. The sun will be darkened. So we see a darkened earth in verse 2. Again, we see a sign of God's judgment. And of course, the earth is flooded, which you go seven chapters later. It's exactly what you see after the judgment of the Nephilim, the fallen angels in the days of Noah. So just in that verse alone, you're seeing clear evidence of what I call the ancient tribulation, the first great tribulation. And what we see in Revelation is just the second in the cycle before God brings this plan together. And I think one passage that's really if we're just a little bit of time traveling is in Jeremiah 4. You know, in the age of subscriptions, you get caught in all those things. Bigfoot enthusiasts, maybe you got a subscription to onlybigfootfeet.com. How do you cancel? You don't even know. You go to the websites of Rigmaru and how to get out of that subscription. What do you do, Luke? Well, it's more elusive than finding the big guy and his feet. That's right. What you do is rocket money. We've talked about rocket money for months now. They're a partner of the show. I just love their service. They make canceling unwanted subscriptions, forgotten subscriptions, super easy. You can do it right from the dashboard. 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And listen, I can see all the subscriptions I have in one place, including the ones I forgot. If I see something I don't want, Rocket Money can help me cancel it. There's a dashboard that gives me a clear view of expenses across all my accounts with automatic transaction categorization and tags that show my spending patterns and create a personalized budget to keep spending on track and get alerts if my bills increase or if there's unusual spending activity. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join rocketmoney.com slash blurry. That's rocketmoney.com slash blurry. Rocketmoney.com slash blurry. There's a passage that people often say, this is a prophetic passage, but I actually think Jeremiah is seeing into the past and actually seeing the destruction of Lucifer's kingdom. And so I can go there. Read that verse. And so, yeah. So this is in Jeremiah 4. This is verse 20 to 23. And it says, Destruction upon destruction is cried, for the whole land is spoiled. Suddenly are my tents spoiled and my curtains in a moment. How long shall I see the standard and hear the sound of the trumpet? For my people are foolish. They have not known me. They are Siddish children, and they have no understanding. So this is Jesus proclaiming judgment upon Israel for their wickedness. They are wise to do evil, but they to do good have no knowledge. And then Jeremiah says, I beheld the earth and low is without form and void and the heavens and they had no light. And he says the cities were broke down and there was no man to be found. And so I think what happens here and then God says right afterwards he said but I will but I will not make a full end of Israel So I think what God was doing was he rebuking Israel in the entire chapter for their rebellion for their idolatry And then he shows Jeremiah, he says, this is the last time I was this upset. This is what I did. Because he's seeing a destroyed earth with no humanity left, right? In the Great Tribulation, people survive. People will live. They will be flesh and blood human beings in the millennial kingdom who are a judgment of the nation. So there'll be many living people after Armageddon, but here no one is left. And I think that what he's seeing is into the past. And God says, but in this time, in Israel's case, I'm not going to do this. But I just want you to know, I could do this. Okay, so break it down for the slow kids. We have God creates the world. It's dark. And before humans enter the scene, there's like a sort of a history, like who's there and what's happening. Sure. So I think the earth was created as a beautiful earth, the beautiful, pristine earth with trees and flowers and all those things. And then he placed the angels there. Okay. And we see this, of course, in evidence of this in Ezekiel chapter 28, where addressing the king of Tyre, but in an esoteric sense, speaking to Satan, Lucifer, God says, you were in Eden, the garden of God. So he's specifically placing Lucifer in the garden of God. is clearly not referring to the king of Tyre. And he says, every precious stone was I covering, the sardius, the topaz. And he lists all the stones that you find on the breastplate of the high priest that Aaron was instructed to wear to go into the tabernacle. In the Nazoretic, exactly, they have nine. In the Septuagint, they have all 12 listed. In the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, all 12 stones are listed there. So you see here that Lucifer was in Eden on the holy mountain of God, serving in a priestly role. It says that he was, and I prefer the Septuagint translation of this chapter. I think it's the most accurate one. It says you were with the cherub. So he was around the cherubim, which means he's at the throne of God. It says among the stones of fire. And so I think, again, it's placing him in Eden in a priestly role. And if you look, I would show that I think those stones of fire, those are the coals that you see around God's throne in the book of Isaiah. Isaiah chapter 6, where he sees God on his throne. and Isaiah says, I'm a man of unclean lips. They take a stone that's right by the cherubim and put it on his mouth to atone, essentially clean him from his sins. And so I think that's exactly where Lucifer was, this highest ranking, beautiful archangel serving God. And then obviously it says you were perfect in your ways until iniquity was found in you. He then had a plan of jealousy to say, I'm gonna, in pride to say, I'm gonna take the throne. And so, yeah, so it was the angels ruling on earth But then the corresponding passage to that that talks about, obviously, the history of Lucifer very explicitly, I think, is also in Isaiah 14, where we know this passage where the five I wills. But the key thing, again, for your question was, it says that Satan said he would exalt his throne above the stars of God. So now he's in Eden. He has a priestly role, and he has a throne. Because he says if he's exalting his throne, he has one. And he says above. He's looking up to the clouds. He's ruling on earth, I believe, leading the angelic realm in a good way, in a godly, righteous way, and then plans this rebellion and incites one third of the angels to join in with him. So the earth, again, I believe was occupied by the angels initially. And then I think also, too, that you also have other humanoid beings on earth as well. Because you look in Isaiah 14, it talks about things like Satan not opening the house of his prisoners. And who were his prisoners? Who were the people that he was keeping imprisoned? And so that's where I think we see on the ancient earth. And then what happens is, of course, then God judges Satan. He tries it. He launches his insurrection. He loses. He's cast down to earth. He's punished. Of course, it now becomes evil, and the other, his angels become the fallen angels. And then God brings the original tribulation on earth, and that's when he judges it with earthquakes and darkness and floods the earth and destroys it. And then leaves it like that until we get to Genesis 1, verse 2, where now he's getting ready to turn the lights back on. It says, let there be light in verse 3. And now he's going to regenerate the earth. This question I think is that maybe think of something that's really interesting is that we've talked with Hugh Ross is the one about the – we talk about prophecy being cyclical, right? So the end, he talks about how the city of God descends and there's no night and no day. So he, as a scientist goes, well, then there's no laws of thermodynamics. There's no. So you have this complete changing of the physics we understand. And as you're saying this, I'm wondering if perhaps that was the way before, if everything is cyclical. Then when God says, let's there be light and separates the light from the darkness again, that he is maybe reinstating or he's beginning a new creation with that includes the laws of thermodynamics and the laws of. I agree. Which is really an interesting thought because if you read it literally in Revelation, he says that the city is so large, that kind of mass would end up having to be a sphere. That's how things work. And if there's no light and no day, then you lose the second law of thermodynamics. There's all these things that are sort of now gone. So we have a new physics. And then I think about how you read the creation story. You go, it feels like God is now creating sort of Newtonian physics, as you know, and he's maybe, he's just wondering if he changes the game in the creation after the, it's just, I don't know. It's a fun thing to think about based upon the end. So continue, Ryan. Because I don't think a lot of people will see that in the first two verses. It's hard to see it. Yeah, you can't see it all there. I mean, you can't. I mean, and again, of course, you know, we know like, you know, going back again to Solomon, right, Proverbs 25, that God is concealing things. And we have to really unravel it in scripture. And so, again, just putting the clues together, if Satan shows up in Genesis chapter 3 evil as a villain and he was once righteous, there has to be a history behind there. So what is the typical explanation throughout church history? Is it that God creates the earth, but it's formless and empty, right? Like it's just a shell? No, it's created pristine, whole. with beautiful. Verse 1. So in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Earth is good. Earth is good. It's beautiful. It's pristine. And then verse 2 doesn't make sense then a lot if you don't, you know, now the earth was formless and why is it dark and empty again? Because of the judgment in between. Exactly. Is that what we call it? Is that what it's called? Gap theory, right? It's called the gap theory. Exactly. So in that gap is where the rebellion of Lucifer took place and we have the judgment that renders the earth formless and void. That's what's happening. So it's the intervening period that leads to the Earth becoming judged, ruined, and a waste. And so the gap theory is explaining the Luciferian rebellion that took place in between those two verses, hence it being called the gap theory. There's actually a gap of immense time between verses 1 and 2. I mean, I recently just watched Interstellar. Can gravity play a part with how time is moving on Earth at that point? I know it affects time. Yeah, it definitely affects time. But like, and obviously in the film, for those of them seeing it too late. But, you know, when they're trying to recolonize, like going to other certain planets, like an hour on this planet is years back home. So a day with the Lord is like a thousand years, right? Right. So I think it's very similar. Could there be some sort of like how it's created that Earth is getting old. but for us now it would be very short or long depending on how that equation works. Anyway, just thinking out loud. It's kind of like a year on Uranus. It's 84 years long. It's the most beautiful time. No place better. Yeah, sure. Nothing like just derailing. I just don't think the average Christian sees a gap no no they don't but we used to because of other verses that allude to exactly so again we all agree that chapter 3 Satan is already evil and then we can look to Job chapter 38 where we know definitively when God is speaking to Job and saying where were you when he's literally talking about the physical creation of the earth and he says that the morning stars sang for joy. The morning stars sang and the sons of God shouted for joy. So we know the angels, the B'nai Ha Elohim, witnessed the creation of the earth. So that means, without a doubt, they predate the earth. So right there, we have a basis to know that angels have to precede us if they were created before the earth. And if we have passages telling us that Lucifer was in Eden, in the garden of God, in a righteous role. That has to also be before we get to Adam and Eve because he's already evil. He's already fallen. He's already a serpent. He's already tempting in the edemic Eden, right? Exactly. You know, it's been debated heavily over the years. If Bigfoot likes dogs, we don't know. But you love your dogs. And if you want to take care of those pups, man's best friend, you've got to remember, they need their nutritional supplements too. As they've gotten older, you wonder, where that puppy spark went, Nate. Where'd it go? They're slower, picker at mealtime. 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He's a 40-year survivor of kidney cancer. He basically healed his body by feeding himself the right thing. And in doing that, he thought, yeah, we can do the same thing with our dogs. And he has. That's right. My kids' dogs came over the other day and they were doing circles because I was giving them the chews, Luke, and they were just excited and ready. Yeah. And you've got Pete and Finn at home. And this sounds like a couple old Norwegian guys playing cards. Those are our dogs. And they look forward to it every day. They're excited about the bag coming out of the pantry and they scarf that food. That's right. My dogs love it. Your dogs will too. Get a free Jumpstart trial bag for your dog today. You just cover the shipping. Go to roughgreens.com. Use discount code blurry. That's roughgreens, R-U-F-F, greens.com. Discount code blurry. Roughgreens. We make any dog food better. So some would push back and be like, well, there wasn't light yet. So where does the light come from? And then some would say in heaven. They say God is the source of light in heaven. So I don't know if there's, there's a problem there for some people probably. Yeah. So again, I would say to those who say that, who hold to the fact that, no, God created the earth and it was dark and covered in water. That was the original creation. Again, if you look at the Hebrew, the tohu vabohu, you can go to Isaiah chapter 45, verse 18, where God's talking about the creation of the earth. And he says, he did not create it in vain. He created it to be inhabited. And again, that's Isaiah 45, 18. And the word in Hebrew there is tohu vabohu. So Isaiah is telling you explicitly God did not create the world in this wrecked, formless, covered in water state. He created it to be inhabited. So, again, this is why I think you have to really put together the different parts of Scripture that to really get this picture, you have to search the Scriptures. You're never going to get it just from Genesis chapter 1. You've got to do some digging, which is what I love to do. Because most people don't see a couple movies in two verses, but that's kind of what you're saying. this is yeah yeah there's a whole is this is not not much different than like you've written two books on the nephilums we look at genesis 6 and everybody goes it's just four verses like and but there's this massive story there that was just moses if we attribute moses to writing genesis he knew that everyone knew the story he didn't have to repeat it right we've said this ad nauseum on the show like the reason we don't get a whole nephilim and this is angels and what does say that but i mean like we don't get the whole story of what's going on here and how this all works, sort of the Enochian tale is that everybody knew that. So are we saying the same thing here? Not enough time. You've got to get to it, right? The angels understood that there's this prehistory? Exactly. Yeah, they understood it, and again, even up until the 1800s, you have theologians commonly writing about Lucifer having the earth, that it was his fall that caused the destruction of verse 2 in Genesis, and that there were other angels involved, there were other planets involved, and so So, again, this was a very, very common understanding, but you really have to, and that's a great comparison. It is very similar to Genesis 6, where you're not going to really, in those, yes, it's just four verses, but there is a lot more context. Okay. When you take the scriptures for it. So, get back on this track. In the beginning, God creates the heavens and the earth. Yes. Lots going on. Take a breath, and we're reading that verse. And then, now, something happens. The word now. Now the earth was formless and empty. Wait, what happened? Is that what you're saying? Yes. There's just this big breath between the first verse and the second verse, but there's a lot that goes on. That's exactly what I'm saying. I know we're kicking a dead horse here, but I think a lot of people just, we've been so conditioned to read it fast. Boom. This thing happens and that thing happens. And I'm just like, okay, now I'm tracking, tracking with you. Hopefully your listeners are too. And then we see other verses to support that gap theory. Between those two, there's a lot that goes on. What about pre-Adamic people? Could creatures like the Bigfoot be a pre-Adamic? Why are you throwing that in there? Let's talk to the people. We're talking about the time, the gap. What's going on in this gap? Yeah, I think so. There's creatures. I think Bigfoot could definitely be a pre-Adamic being who occasionally can enter our realm and be seen. And so, again, looking at Genesis 1, if you look at what the details are saying, when God makes, this is another Hebrew difference, right? He's making animals. He's making plants, which is different from Barak to create. He creates the heavens and the earth. He makes plants. He makes animals. He tells the land to bring forth animals. He tells the water to bring forth marine life. He says, after their own kind. so if again this is again going back, this is Genesis 6 type language, so why if this is the original creation of animals why would there be a kind if they were brand new, so I think again there were pre-Adamic beings that greatly, of all different species and probably hybridized species as well into the dinosaurs or into Bigfoot and why you have all of a sudden these gigantic reptilian beings in the ancient era, and I believe it was because of the fallen angels doing their hybrid program, leading to these giant beings. And then now when God's resetting the earth and bringing animals in, he says, after their own kinds. So I don't, so yes, I think that there were different creatures created in the pre-edonic world that didn't make it through to the regenerated earth. So there could have been humanoid beings with dinosaurs at the same time, which is, it's kind of funny because like evolutionists get maybe a piece of that right. The age may be right. Oh yeah. but that's more geologist than evolutionist i feel like that's more of like trying to understand the ages of things this is this is always the problem for a lot of new earth christians right is that as you just said if you find a hearth that's 13 000 years old and in ancient israel well the dating has to be wrong then right it it and that it becomes a a slippery slope trying to make everything work but if you look at the everything as being ancient which well there are like tracks of dinosaurs and man together, right? So some people will say, yeah, dinosaurs aren't that old, but it could be both. Yeah. They could, there could be some old ones and there could be some that lingered. Yeah, and I don't think it gives any ground to evolution at all, to have an ancient earth, to have ancient humanoids. And I think, in fact, again, going back to the language, what God is doing, if we remember, God said clearly that at some point he said, I'm going to make a mystery that people aren't going to realize what's going on for a long time, right? That story from Romans. Even with the creation of Adam, which was Barak creation, so he was a new thing being created, I think even the proclamation of let us make man in our image, after our likeness, that was God saying, this time we're making a race that's in our image, that's spiritually connected to us, that reflects our image. And that's what set Adam and humanity, the Adamic race, apart from any pre-Adamic race, that we have God's spirit. And of course, obviously, he breathed the breath of life into him, so he literally has the spirit of God. We carry the image. We are his image bearers, which of course raised the ire of the fallen angels who realized at that point that not only do we have a right to standing with God before Adam sinned, but that Adam can replace them, which is what this is all about. So in the beginning, a million years, maybe, time, existence, pre-anemic things, it gets destroyed, and Luke's favorite movie, Waterworld, comes true. and then darkness is over the surface and then the Spirit of God is hovering over the water. So underrated though, let's be real. The Spirit of God is hovering over the waters a second time? Or, you know, this is a new thing. The Spirit of God is hovering over the waters and then God is now regenerating the earth. And again, when you talk about the repetition, think about, again, think about the days of Noah. The earth gets flooded and now what does Noah do? signal it's time to return, to leave the ark. He lets out a dove, symbolic of the Holy Spirit hovering over the waters, and that's what lets him know now the new earth can begin. So that's what we're seeing. We're seeing a judged earth in verse 2, and God's Spirit is now that dove saying, now it's time to regenerate the earth. And God says, let there be light. And now the water's receding, and everything's being created again. Remember, it says the dry land. The dry land's already there. God does not create the land in Genesis chapter 1. the water just recedes and the dry land is revealed. So there's already a creation there, just like you have animals coming out of the ground. Because I believe, again, their genetics is already in the soil because they were pre-Adamic creatures. And so God is just simply regenerating the surface of the earth. And if you think about it again... Do you think anything survived? I think it's possible. I think it's possible that things survived, yeah. And I think Jesus makes a reference to the future regeneration in the Gospels when he says that he tells the disciples, he says, in the regeneration, when the Son of Man returns, you will sit on thrones judging the tribes of Israel. I believe that regeneration he's talking about is that when he returns in Armageddon for the millennium, what happens? He regenerates the earth again. The conditions return to an Eden-like state. The topography changes. Lifespan suddenly return, right? It says that a man, if you die at 100, you're cursed. You know, animals are at peace with each other because that's what's taking place in Genesis chapter 1. It's a regeneration of a destroyed earth that was judged in an ancient tribulation by Yahweh. So what do we do with the pre-Adamic people, right? Because I think this is an interesting idea and controversial, of course, like in a lot of circles. But as I was telling you pre-Roll, we talked to Ali about the idea of two creations. Genesis 1 is a creation, the first chapter, and the second chapter begins in the garden. It was so mind-blowing. But you have this sort of special place. And then, of course, the question is always like, Cain kills Abel, and he gets marked, no one kills him. And he goes out of the garden, and there's cities and all these things. And people will just say, well, it's just time. We don't really have an idea of what the time is there. And so they were having kids and all these different things. And so it was just a bunch of his kids or cousins want to kill him. I mean, so are we seeing, again, like a pre-Adamic people there in this second? Also, if we have perhaps people in this angelic pre-earth, if we look at chapter one and chapter two, are we seeing a creation of man, of humans, and then a special creation of Adam in the line of Adam there? What are we seeing there? So I'm seeing kind of both. So I see the creation of Adam, I think I read it in chapter one and two, But at the same time, I do think there were pre-Adamic humanoids. I do believe that. And I think, again, I'm getting that more from the other passages. Well, if Satan had merchandising and trafficking, all these things that Ezekiel 28 talks about, he had sanctuaries. Sanctuaries are places of worship. He had cities. So he casted cities down. So who is inhabiting? These are things that people inhabit. Jeremiah 4 says there was no man left in this destroyed vision of the judgment he saw from God, I believe, looking into the past. I think that there was civilization. And the interesting thing, too, is if you think about it, that a lot of times people will think it's kind of strange that this is so much about Satan merchandising. He has merchandise and traffic. He's a big merchant, a businessman. But that's exactly what he's trying to do in the end times. He's trying to control the economy through the mark of the beast. So he's going to control merchandising again So in his agenda To overthrow God And develop that power to overthrow God Actually controlling commerce Of society is a big part of it That's stated very clearly in Revelation 13 Alright so the end is the beginning The beginning is the end You start with an empire And then you end with an empire And then God's like let's take this empire out Let's make a garden Let's start there And then Satan's like I'm going to turn it back into the empire right exactly okay exactly yeah tracking with you and so that empire and we might still see some of the foundations of that empire all over the world oh of course yeah so there's like two flood stories almost there are yeah yeah and maybe that's how this gets burned into the cultural because everywhere every culture in the world kind of has this understanding there was a flood exactly okay exactly yeah could have been one of the two floods exactly okay i'm tracking yeah Yeah. Not the brightest, but I'm trying. Keep us rolling, Ryan. Speaking of brightest, here comes the light, right? Where are we at in this story? We already got that part down. Here's another question. Are there any texts outside of the Bible that talk about the gap theory? There are some. Like I said, the Targum, I think, is the clearest, because it actually just says that the earth became ruined. That's the clearest, closest. I mean, that's a version of the Old Testament. The Apocryphal texts make references to Lucifer's rebellion. Not so much the judgment, but there are some that reference his rebellion. But really, a lot of what I look at from ancient times are really from the church fathers. They're the ones who are talking about this. And another interesting aspect we can talk about, I think, is I think the Bible provides kind of a vision into how Satan got the fallen angels to rebel. And I think it's in the account of Absalom. Let's go there. Yeah. Yeah. And so, of course, Absalom is the son of David. And I think when you look at him there are lots of interesting parallels between Absalom and Lucifer based on what we told in Scripture And so of course obviously again just for greater context right God says in Hosea chapter 12 that he uses types and similitudes God tells us that he is intentionally giving foreshadows and symbolism. David is a clear foreshadow of Jesus. Jesus is even referred to as David prophetically in Zechariah. He's the son of David. So David battles a Nephilim for the fate of Israel, foreshadowing Armageddon. So he is a foreshadow of Jesus Christ. And so Absalom, of course, is his actual son. And just look at some of the perils. The first, when we're introduced to Absalom, his sister is assaulted by his brother Amnon, forces he violates her, and Absalom murders his brother. Which, of course, he wasn't supposed to murder him for that. He's not supposed to see justice, but very similar to how Jesus describes Satan. He's a murderer from the beginning. So that's his introduction. He's a murderer. And then after two years go by, or David doesn't speak to him after he murders his brother, Absalom decides he's going to take the throne of David. And so we get to some more descriptions of him, and there's something really peculiar about him. So in 2 Samuel 14, here's the description of Absalom in verses 25 to 26. It says, but in all Israel, there was none to be so much praise as Absalom for his beauty. From the sole of his foot, even to the crown of his head, there was no blemish in him. And when he pulled his head, he cut his hair every year at the end of the year because his hair was heavy. It weighed 200 shekels after the king's weight, which is five pounds. This guy, he had a lot of hair. A lot of lettuce. You had a lot of hair, but also... Nate's working on that right now. Yes. I get it. Out the back. It's a long time ago for me, man. Yeah. My soul retreated a long time ago. But notice the power loss, right? In Ezekiel 28, what does it say about what gave the devil his pride? It says that he was corrupted by his beauty. It says he was perfect in beauty. In Ezekiel 28, your heart was lifted up because of your beauty. You have corrupted your wisdom by your brightness. Therefore, I will cast you to the ground. So just like Lucifer, Absalom was known for this unbelievable head-to-toe beauty, hair that's so long, it's five pounds, it's to be cut every year. So we see this. And then what happens also is that his agenda is to take the throne of David. Lucifer, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God. And then he enacts this whole plan to rebel. and even in the description of his rebellion, he comes into Jerusalem with 50 horses pulling him. This is right out of 2 Samuel. And all this pomp and circumstance, that's what we see in Ezekiel 28. When you look in the Septuagint version of Ezekiel 28, a lot of people read that verse and says, oh, you know, Lucifer had instruments in him, that he had musical instruments inside him. In the Septuagint, it says the instruments were played at your creation. So it's almost like a king. Like he had a procession of music. And when he was judged, it says you were cast down with your violins as well. And so you see that the same idea of this pomp and circumstance and deception. So Absalom basically tells David, I'm going to go worship God in Hebron, which is where David was anointed king. And as he leaves, he makes a coalition with 200 men and says, when you hear the trumpets, you announce that Absalom is now king. And so, again, we see this conspiracy and this number 200. So his hair weighed 200 shekels. He conspires to 200. This is a number that's very connected to rebellion in scripture, even in the book of Enop. 200 watchers who conspire to corrupt the genetic bloodline. And so we're seeing lots of these parallels. And then even his name, his name means the son of peace. His name is a deceptive name. Lucifer was the morning star, the bright one. So all these things give the appearance of a beautiful, righteous prince who's actually an evil usurper. And David kind of gave him the rope-a-dope, you know, because David flees. He flees Jerusalem after Absalom announces himself king because he doesn't want to fight his son. he sends one of his men Hushai to go to Absalom and say I've given up on David I pledge my allegiance to you and so now Absalom he has two right hand men to listen to he has Ahithophel and Hushai, David's on the run Ahithophel says we got David if we send our armies now we wipe them out, we kill him, the throne is ours Hushai says no, don't attack him yet he's strong right now we should wait, we should wait and then launch attack later on, which of course gives David time to get his forces together, Absalom listens to Hushai. So just when he thought he was victorious, he was actually falling for David's plot all along, just like Satan thought he was beating Jesus Christ at the crucifixion, but he was actually ensuring his own defeat. He was ensuring the very plan he'd been trying to undo for 6,000 years in crucifying Christ to the point that it says in the New Testament that had they known, they would have never crucified the Lord of glory had they known the secret, what the plan really was. And it's exactly how Absalom gets set up. He thinks he's about to defeat David, and he's walking right into a trap. And then the last thing I'll just point out about him is – oh, I'm sorry, I can't forget if I've got one thing, is that when he's launching his rebellion, he sits in the gate of Jerusalem. And as people come in, he kisses them and says, wouldn't if I was king, you'd have so much more justice. You'd be judged fairly. You'd have more. And it says he stole the hearts of the people. And so I think we're seeing a picture of Lucifer seducing the fallen angels to say, if I was in charge, if I was ruling on the throne, you would have more. And it even says that even that kiss, too, even that I connect that to when Satan in Luke 22 at the Last Supper, it says that Satan indwells Judas. He goes into Judas. He's now possessing him. And then Judas runs out to get the Pharisees and the Roman authorities to arrest Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane. And how does he greet him? With a kiss. That was his signal. So even that we've seen all these parallels. I think this is what God does. he gives us these foreshadows all throughout scripture. And so then when Absalom... Forwards and backwards. Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So you can say that the human story plays out like the angelic rebellion. You can see a human version of that and you can go backwards and say this is a shadow of what happened in the gap theory, maybe. Exactly. And that's why I call it the scroll of time. Because the shadows and dust. They're all cycling over each other. There's no beginning, there's no end. The end is the beginning, the beginning. So we can know what happened in the past based on, you know, like digging up some of the better documented stories that we have. Exactly. And when Absalom dies in the battles, they go into the battle now too late because David has a full army now and all his mighty men and they lose horribly. Absalom gets caught by his hair on a tree. By his pride. Exactly. By his pride. Yeah. And one, curse it is he who hangs from a tree. Right. But also, in 2 Samuel, it says that he hung between earth and heaven. Again, that's how it describes him. It's very unique. It's almost as if he's like an angelic being, right? And so I connect that to when Jesus tells his disciples, I beheld Satan falling as lightning. So when Satan was finally punished in the ancient rebellion, he was between heaven and earth, falling like lightning down to earth. And so when Absalom is defeated, and then he dies shortly after because Joab comes and stabs him, he's suspended between heaven and earth. So I think God is giving us a preview into the past or a look into the past through Absalom's rebellion against David. Yeah, I like that. That's cool. This reminds me, though, too, of like when we talked to Doug Van Dorn. He wrote the book of The Rings of Revelation. And what you're talking about, Ryan, is what Doug was talking about is the idea. He's talking about reading Revelation as prophecies is like a ring where it does repeat. You have this repetition. So his contention is that you read Revelation and it cycles. It cycles in 70 AD. And it's going to continue to cycle. You're going to have it cycle until the final cycle, right? And I think that's a lot of what we're talking about here is the way the prophecy works. I think we think about it, and this is how we started the conversation, what I like, is we think about it so linearly because we live in a linear timeline, right? So our perception of time is that it proceeds on in this linear fashion where God is not constrained. He is outside of that. And so the ideas of repetition and process, it's just really interesting considering a conversation we've had. Well, I love that, yeah. Because also you see the repetition of the stories then. As you said, it's God showing us both past and future. but then we're getting we can find insights into into the very distant past with with the stories of that happen in in in that linear real time right yeah and you would think that a a hebrew writer would know that and so filling in the gap theory wouldn't be as as important exactly because they're like well that's going to get explained in the future right and that's their understanding of time. That's the ancient Hebraic understanding of time is that it is cyclical. We're working as a circle. It's not linear. Linear time was God's accommodation to us because I'm going to give you guys some time to work this out before I come and judge everything. But he's existing outside of time. So what world do you see on this story then? What kind of things do you see going on in the gap if you apply this story to that time? What are you kind of filling in the holes there? How was Satan able to get one third of the angels while he's working every day and handling the stones of fire and on the mountains of God, how did he actually get this done? I think it was by appealing that you could have more, you could have a higher rank because there's a hierarchy, obviously in the angelic realm. You could have a better life, more justice, more power. If I'm in, if I'm in charge. And so I think that's what this, this passive Absalom is showing us. This is how it happened. It was just by persuasion. I can offer you more justice, more power. If I'm in, unironically it's the same temptation we see in the garden with the tree of good it's like god's holding out on you don't you want to understand like we do don't you want to know these things and then but even the temptation of christ right exactly like don't you want all these things like you don't have to do all this i can give it to you right now but nobody ever explained to us growing up in the church like it's pretty loaded that satan rolls on the scene so fast like where did he come from and why is he able to just roll in there must have been some other story that we haven't been told going on. He's coming back to do it again. Exactly. Because now the lights get turned back on on the regenerated earth and now we have this new creation that is made in God's image and I believe bearing light themselves actually. For a purpose. Yeah, I think they were to replace him. And so now he's making his move to corrupt humanity to disrupt God and show So when I talk about, I call this the cosmic trial in the new book, that basically God is allowing Satan, obviously, linear time to make his case. And Satan, of course, is going to try and show over and over again that he that God's word can fail, that his way is better, that God is fallible. And God is allowing this, obviously, to play out before Armageddon. And so that's where Adam comes into play as Satan says, OK, I'm going to I'm going to show you that he he'll disobey you. It's like, Job, I'm going to show you that there's a new creation. He's going to disobey you. If all I have to do is do one temptation, he's gone. And so, but of course, little as you know, that's bringing about the seed of the woman. I love that. As a lawyer, I love that. Because you being a lawyer, because this is, it is legal. Job is this like, can I sift him? God gives permission. And then this is trial, right? And then if you look at the Enochian tale too, right? What we know is that Enoch is, you know, in that portion of the Apocrypha, Enoch is tapped to represent the fallen angels in their case. Asking for leniency from God, like for what they've done. And you have these legalities. And it does feel like, you know, as Troy says, that demons are like sniveling lawyers. It's like this idea that everything operates in this legality. And you're saying God's letting it. Yes. Letting it play out. Even our term fallen angels, right, is loaded for a lot of Christians. We think they fell from this other realm. They weren't already here. They were just disloyal angels. Exactly. Right? So we think fallen, we think they were just, yeah, they never occupied earth. They never were here. Right, yeah. But no, no, they were here. They were here. And yes, yes. So they're evil. They're apostate, rebel angels. But yes, they were here. They were here before. And just to, you know, on the point of the trial, I think, you know, the New Testament even alludes to this. When it talks about salvation, it says these are things that angels look into, our salvation. so there's something being played out in our personal salvation of humanity on earth that angels are paying very close attention to and I think again it's we are exhibit A for God's case for why his way is true and right and Lucifer is trying to make his case and this is what Adam obviously was central to all this because he's trying to again show that this new race they're no better than we are than the fallen angels they're going to sin just like we do but obviously we are at a significant disadvantage. Do you think there's any jealousy there like with if we take a look at this at the theory and the gap here and that angels occupied earth and in this in this theoretical understanding that then god destroys it and gives it to humanity even the impulses will judge angels it's like the deed was taken and given to humanity and then there's got to be like from the disgruntled they got to be like you would give it to this lesser being and you know god gives and then he gives you know he gives us in adam a seat at the at the table and the divine council at the family right like we're given this seat and so all of a sudden there has to be this like you know because the bible says things about angels too about how you know they marvel at at our faith like that that that people we believe and don't see yeah but the flip side of that has to be they they're envious they they just reek of envy and jealousy that we would be given this place that used to be theirs. 100%. And again, God, I think, shows us this throughout. This is the sibling rivalries throughout the Old Testament, right? It's Can and Abel. Can and Abel. Jacob and Esau. It's always the younger sibling comes and usurps the older sibling. It's also the prodigal son. Exactly. Right? It's like, I've been faithful. Right? And you're going to go out and run this guy who's going to have a robe and a ring and welcome him back. And it's like... And these are some of the things that take us back in time, right? How the fallen angels feel about us. And even with the Nephilim, you know, where God tells the Israelites, I'm bringing you into a land with cities you did not build, with vineyards you did not plant. I'm giving it to you because it belonged to the Canaanites before. So he's taking the usurpers out and giving what they had. And that's exactly what happened to us. It was the earth. He took the whole planet and gave it to us from the fallen angels. And how do heavens play into the gap theory? Like what's going on in the heavens, you think? A couple of things. One, I think that what we see in Genesis 1 with the firmaments and the waters above the heaven, I believe this is when God is now setting up outer space and separating, putting up this sea of separation between the second heaven and the third heaven to separate his realm. So I think that's one thing. And that was set up. And then also, I think in terms of what's happening in the heavens, I think they're seeing much more of the actual trial take place. They're really seeing the court. Because, again, if you think about it, the few glimpses we get, whether it's in Job, whether it's with Joshua, the high priest, where it says he's standing before God and Satan's at his right hand, basically saying this, you know, he should be, you should punish him. And God makes him clean, gives him clean clothes. Prosecutor. Yeah. So this is the battle in Jude, the archangel Michael and Satan contending for the body of Moses. When you read the intertestamental, the assumption of Moses, that book that Jude's quoting, you actually get the dialogue between the archangel Michael and Satan. Satan saying, I should get Moses' body because he murdered somebody. He's going all the way back to the Egyptian that he murdered. And he says, that's why. He said, he shed blood. Therefore, I should get his body. And then Michael counters him by saying no, because God created all bodies, all people, all matter was created by Yahweh. And therefore, if he forgives him, he's accepted. He's forgiven. Therefore, God, I should have his body to dispose of secretly because obviously Moses is kind of a supernatural burial. So I think that's what the angelic realm is seeing. They're actually seeing Satan up there. And this is why Jesus is called our advocate because he's literally serving as our attorney to testifies to why God shouldn't just turn us into dust right now because we're covered in his blood. And so I think that's what they're actually witnessing. I like thinking about that. I like that imagery because the Bible does call Satan the accuser. Absolutely. So he's like he's casting the accuser. He said, legally, this is happening. Legally, that. And Jesus is saying, I paid. Okay, so then the Genesis 6 rebellion would be the second angelic. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. It's hard. There's two Genesis 6s now. A lot of people have time accepting the first one. Right, yeah. So then when we talk about the ancient times and like the gods on the earth, the gods of the nations, these are angelic beings literally sitting on thrones. Yeah. and then their sons and daughters also are like the men of renown but these are like physical empires on earth but it seems like it's hard for christians modern day because where'd they go why aren't they still physically in our realm at this point so yeah so interesting so clarence larkin um who wrote about this a lot about this in the early 20th century he comments he he He theorizes that a lot of the original, there may have been after the millennium, Revelation 20, when Satan makes his final assault on the holy city, right? And then God sends fire from heaven to wipe out the final army of rebellion. He speculates that that may have happened in ancient times, that there may have been a fire from heaven. That's why you don't see a lot more of the civilizations and bones and skeletal remains of all this pre-Adamic civilization. That may or may not be true. I'm not dogmatic on that. But one thing he says that's really interesting to me is that in Revelation, when it says the books are opened, the second resurrection, everyone is resurrected, good and bad. Now, everyone's standing before God's throne. It says that Hades and hell gave up their dead. So now everyone's getting resurrected. Everyone's getting vomited up from the ground. But it says also the sea gave up its dead. You know, everyone in our time, linear timeline, is going to hell. You're going into hell, the full angels in the abyss. We think of hell as Sheol, Abraham's bosom, torment, and then the abyss. But it says specifically in Revelation that there's a population of the dead that are in the sea. And Larkin thinks that's where the pre-Adamic dead went. So why else would they – who would be there? Because it's not a human being. A lot of pirates maybe. Some other guys. Exactly. Yeah, there needed to be a prison for these. Yeah, so that's something I do. That part I do kind of expound on in the book because I think that's a really interesting theory that he had. Because when I read that, I was like, you know, why is the sea casting out dead? If hell has the dead and says hell casts out dead, who's coming out of the sea? That's a great point. Yeah. Who's that? So there had to have been some remnant of the first round when Eden's created, right? because there seems to be some bustling going on outside of Eden. Exactly, and I think that's very plausible, that there are still remnants of the pre-Adamic civilization at the time Adam was created, or beings who can actually maybe have just, are somehow passing out of the dimension into the dimension from the pre-Adamic time. And do you believe Eden is kind of between heaven and earth? Yeah, absolutely. Eden to me is, in our human timeline, was the first temple, right, because God is manifesting his presence in Eden. So it's clearly, there's a supernatural intersection going on there. The veil is removed in the Garden of Eden, clearly, at least until sin, right? Yeah. Until Adam and Eve sin. We're semi-protected in this space and kind of restarting, and then that's obviously when Satan. Oh, and by the way, now that you mentioned that, it just brought nothing to my mind. Just to go back to the Ezekiel 28 and the Septuagint version. Yeah. So you have Adam and Eve. Of course, they succumb to sin. they're cast out, obviously, and God puts the cherubim and a flaming sword to guard the past. They can't go back into Eden. And obviously, he doesn't want them to go back, because should they live forever, they'll be forever corrupted. They can't be redeemed. In the Septuagint verse of Ezekiel 28, it says that I've cast you out of the holy mountain of God, and it says the cherubim has cast you out. So it's almost the same thing. Where Luther was cast out of the holy mountain, out of Eden, and who was there? Keeping them out, the cherubim again. So again, we see parallels that Lucifer experienced this casting out before Adam and Eve ever did. On a mountain. On a cosmic mountain. Yeah. Where are we at now in the story? Where it feels like you've taken us on this wild journey here. Where are we at now? Yeah. I can tell you where we're at now. Okay. And this is a little something that we mentioned pre-roll. But I can so so what is, again, because the end is the beginning. Yeah. The beginning is the end. What is Satan's ultimate end game? And so, again, when I think of. I'm approaching this from this book is probably my most lawyerly book. I feel like my wife probably disagree because she's like, you're always trying to make a case and everything. Yeah. Tons of evidence. But I'm really approaching this from a lawyerly perspective. Right. So we have motive, obviously, by Lucifer. Right. I will be like the most high. I will exalt my throne. Pride. envy, jealousy, the desire for power, obviously. What are the means? How is it? Okay, I tell the third of angels, your life would be better if I was in charge. Okay, that could be true. But how are you going to beat him? Right. How's that going to happen? You know, and not to mention the fact that we're outnumbered. And so I think that's where we are now in terms of what is Satan trying to do? his end game to get power to defeat God inextricably involves human civilization. And let's unpack that. So I think that what I talk about is there's a power that exists, a spiritual power that can be unleashed when a population is completely unified. Yeah. And where am I getting this from? I'm getting this from the Tower of Babel. Nimrod. You go to the Tower of Babel and they're constructing the tower. The whole earth is unified. And God says to me, the probably top three most chilling verses in the Bible, when God says he looks down at the tower and says, if they complete this, there's nothing that will be restrained from them which they imagine to do. They can do anything if they actually finish this tower. And, of course, I believe that was – the tower is obviously – I believe was trying to open up the supernatural port. They were trying to literally open up the – rip through the veil to get to heaven. Ziggurat. To usurp God. Ziggurat, exactly. And so I think that's a real statement. And, you know, of course, God has to physically come down to earth to scatter them. And he knows that all it took was he didn't even have to hurt them. He just had to separate them. And the threat was gone. Right. He doesn't kill them. He just separates them And so there a power there that Satan has been trying to harness in unifying a people And this is something that scientists now they call it noetic science And if you ever read any Dan Brown in The Lost Symbol, this is what he talks about in The Lost Symbol. And in his newest book, he talks about this extensively, this idea of noetic science. And there's an institute for noetic science. I've spent a lot of time on their website. but they talk about the fact that if you look at things like rock concerts, music concerts, stadiums, big gatherings, that there's a spiritual energy. And, of course, there are lots of videos where artists talk about that they're having out-of-body experiences on stage when they are leading, you know, when there's 70,000 people screaming. Or people like weird stuff like Taylor Swift concerts, the one I remember most recently where people like lose time. They're like, I blacked out. Exactly. Or the Travis Scott one, which is obviously like a weird portal thing that happened there. I experienced that a little bit just in my music career. You know, we would have smaller crowds, but even just four or five hundred people in a room singing back to you. There were multiple times when it felt like you were kind of floating. And then you just go to a crappy town, crappy show, and you have to just know. It's just not here. Right. And we have to pretend that we're into this. It's such a weird thing, but I've experienced it. It's a weird thing. Yeah, and there's real research around it. Yeah. So revelation, not to derail you, it's telling the future and the past at the same time. Exactly. Which is why I think we debate it so much because we're like, this can tell the past and the future. It is. It's not a final revelation. It's like many revelations constantly and maybe what happened in the beginning. And so I think we debate what's going to happen in the end times. And so it's like, there's a lot of Christians who hate the end times and say, no, Revelation's already been, it already happened. I'm like, well, yeah, but it's going to happen again. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And so, and that's what it's telling us, right? It's telling us the past and future. So what is Satan doing in Revelation? Exactly what he tried to do in the ancient pre-Adamic earth, which is to do what? Unlock this power by unifying a population, the population of the world. Yes. With the Antichrist. Obviously, with the mark of the beast, that is his means of achieving that power, unlocking that babble conspiracy of power again by unifying the people. And the interesting thing I look to is obviously we know about controlling buying and selling, just like I said, I did Ezekiel 28. He's controlling the merchandise and the traffic, but also the image of the beast. So they create this image. It's a manufactured, the false prophet lures humanity into creating this image. And it's given life. So it's the fulfillment of the ultimate AI. It is artificial intelligence. It's manufactured, but it's alive and has consciousness. And it says that the image knows who is worshiping and who's not and enforce that under penalty of death. So how can that happen? How can it know globally who's worshiping or not? Well, if you're tapped in to a hive mind neural network through the mark, it's going to know. It's going to know. just like my watch knows if I'm standing right now or not, or if I'm sitting. It says, oh, it's time. It's time to stand. And so that's where I think Satan's going to get that power. And I talk about some of the technologies now. Obviously, we have Neuralink from Elon Musk, but there are technologies way beyond that now. They have a new technology. They call it BISC. It's B-I-S-C. It's an acronym, but it's just like a thin wafer. They can go under the skull, and not only they're saying they can already do two-way communication to the mind through it. And so if you have two-way, they say to the point that soon they think that – and these are like scientists from like four different universities. And they're saying that soon they believe that they'll be able to even implant images in someone's mind who has this. So that type of two-way communication, now you're in a situation you can return to Babel where you can say, okay, we're all of one mind, one purpose, one worshiping, one being. and that's where Satan is that's the end game is now Satan preparing with technology because Satan needs technology he's not omnipotent he's preparing to once again unlock that power because that's how he can fight God he's not more powerful than God on his own but he's trying to unlock this power when you look at this in scripture once the Antichrist is in power and is full control it's go time now all of a sudden Satan the antichrist the false prophets they release these demons that go out recruit the kings of the world now it's time to fight yeah so he gets control of the world he unifies them in worshiping his son his hybrid nephilim son by the way and now he's ready to try and fight yahweh because he feels like i have this power again i have i've unlocked the babel power again which he used in the ancient times in the pre-damic world so this will be his third time the trilogy will be complete it's wild though because like what is it elon musk just said as of this recording like this week i think that we've hit singularity it was supposed to be five years out there was something that came out oh wow which is like if you know what that is just means that ai has surpassed our human abilities and knowledges which is a one of those things where all of a sudden the you know it's terminator all the machines are now smarter than we are yeah which is the You know, you talk about stepping stones to that. It just makes sense. I was thinking as you're talking, I'm thinking, of course. It's like we need a one world language. We need everyone to speak the same language because, you know, how else do you get, you know, like Chechens and, you know, Russians to side with each other or whatever, right? I mean, these enemies of ages pass. I think that was funny to think about, too. you think all of a sudden you've got someone speaking German and someone speaking Swahili, and one guy's clicking, the other guy's spitting all over him, and they're like, this didn't happen a second ago. What's happening here? Well, the telepathic communication is a big thing that comes back and forth on our show. People being communicated to by entities, beings, and blurry creatures communicating directly into their minds. So we know it happens. We just can't send, but we can receive. So maybe this AI technology will allow us to send and receive. Suddenly we go from the Nokia to the iPhone. Definitely. And then you combine that with the supernatural, miraculous power that the Antichrist is going to have. He's going to be resurrected. And so we see stories like Egypt and the Israelites in Egypt during the judgment, right? And is that a story of the end times, you think? Like that plays out. because I think that a lot of Christians don't have hope when they want to rewrite Revelation because they're afraid of, wow, this dynasty is coming back? No, we can't believe that. So I'm going to spend my whole life trying to say that the story doesn't end the way you think it is. It's not going to get that dark, right? I think that's a big motivator to read Revelation differently. It is. It's a big motivator. But at the end of the day, we have to remember that God is just. He is a God of justice. He's also a man of war. And so the only way we can ever reach the eternal kingdom that God is for us, where there's no more hurt, pain, sorrow, no more tears, no more struggle, evil has to be dealt with. And so, yes, of course, there's nothing wrong with saying, wow, this is scary. This is really frightening seeing all these beings. But that's what has to happen for God to reconcile everything. And when you talk about the Exodus and the Israelites, I mean, that's a complete type in shadow, right? Because God's always providing for them in the midst of all this chaos. No, he's protecting them 100%. And there's hope in that story, even though it's freaky and scary. Absolutely, and I believe we'll be protected. I believe that born-again believers will not experience all the plagues and punishments of Revelation. So I think that God will protect us, whether it's in heaven or if you're on earth, I believe Christians will be protected as well. And I guess that's the flip side of the coin, right? Is that for all of the doom and gloom and the way the trajectories are, we're just speeding at that. Like the hope is the gospel, right? And if that's where we find our hope, then as we said on the show before, the biggest act of spiritual warfare is to share the gospel. It's to give people that hope. Because it does seem hopeless. All of a sudden we're going to lose our, you know, the world economic forms. You're going to live in a pod and eat bugs. You own nothing and be happy, right? And it's like, you know, we all are fathers here. You know, what kind of world is forming up for our kids? But, yeah, that's a great reminder that, like, man, like, the hope is in the gospel. Amen. And that we have a good, good dad that's going to put down this rebellion once and for all. And I love your approach, too, because I feel like what it does is it gives value to every single story. And those stories build in a crescendo towards it. And modern Christians can cherry-pick stories and say, well, I don't like this one. This one doesn't fit in, but it's like everything is a foreshadowing of the next, the next, the next. And it's like, regardless of what you think about the end times, based on the case, as a lawyer, it's building through these previous stories. It's coming. It would make no sense if it wasn't. Yeah. Train left the station, basically. You got to just, you got to get on the ride, right? Yeah, 100%. And the beauty of it, too, is in terms of what we can say comforting. I actually told this story on the way here to the studio. To your Uber driver? To the Uber driver, yeah. Shout out Marjorie. Ms. Marjorie. I love that how much ministry happens to Uber drivers. All the way to the studio, yeah. We hear it every time. What do you do? Well, let's talk about something weird. Where are you going? You wouldn't believe it if I told you. Yeah, pretty much how it happened. And so I was telling her the value, because she was questioning me about the value of revelation, believe it or not. And I said, you know, well, I'll tell you the value. I said, I was on a podcast where I would say, I would call it a new age. It was two new age women that were very into just lots of just different non-Christian beliefs, which is fine. I was happy to be a guest on there. And I was on virtually so I could see their live chat. And their fans were just bringing the heat to me. Who's this clown, this Bible thumber? Get this guy out of here. I don't believe anything he's saying. And then we got into a discussion about the mark of the beast and transhumanism. And we talked about the two witnesses that everyone could see their bodies. And I'm like, you know, they're in the street. I'm like, that could only happen in the last 10 years. I'm like, because now you can go as deep as you want to go to in Uganda. They got Starlink out there. Everyone's got a phone. I'm like, so these things, the technologies are in place now to make these things happen. And I said, you know, I just want to give a PSA. I said, I want to ask anyone in the chat here, name a book that has this level of accurate prophecies of the future. We can say all this stuff. Because they were all excited to talk about these things. He's like, yeah, it's happening right now. I'm like, yeah, but it's only in the Bible. So the comfort we can take in these prophecies is that it's showing that God's word is true. It's literally in the headlines every day. So we know that if that's true, then so is God's promise to redeem us, to save us, make us immortal. And that's the trust. So it boosts to me. It's like the best testimony is that we're seeing prophecy. We're blessed to live in this era. We're seeing God's word coming to life right before our eyes. So we know that our Savior is real, his sacrifice and atonement is real, his resurrection is real, and our eternal life is real. Let's go. And how – it's incredible. I love that. Every episode, it's more and more of that, like realizing this is beyond – the stories interweave in a way that could not be – 66 books that coherently, coherently interpret, reinterpret each other too, which is like the numbers are crazy on that. Go ahead, Nate. And what would you say to some of the ancient alien theories that kind of derail off of this? Like, why do you think this message is important for people who are down the rabbit holes and think the Earth is older and there is more going on? And there's aliens showing up and they seeded life here because it's based on what you've told us the last hour and a half. It would be easy to come to a lot of those conclusions based on like cherry picking some of these facts, right? Definitely. And they're so close. Yeah. They're so close. I tell myself all the time, like, follow through. Put the ark on it, and you'll get in the hoop. You'll get in the hoop. You just got to follow through. I'm like, you're walking down such a similar path. You're looking at some of the same things, the same megaliths, the same tools from thousands of years ago and putting it together in these signs of ancient civilization and advanced technology. But again, we find that coherent. There's a coherent story in the Bible that can bring this together. And also, too, if these beings exist, if there's another realm out there, there's going to be a reconciliation. And the Bible explains it so clearly. The Bible explains it so clearly. So I would just say, yeah, you're close. But just give the chance of understanding that you were put here for a purpose, that we have a spirit. We have consciousness. And it comes from God. And so I just point again to where else are you going to find more information that coincides with exactly what you believe? And really, and honestly, one of my longtime friends of mine who I had went to college with had many, many religious debates with and he was an atheist. You know, we started talking about the Bible for years. And but then he became a big alien, ancient aliens, devocating down that rabbit hole. And then lo and behold, he sends me a text message of the screenshot of a blurry creatures episode with my name on it says, were you on the show? I listen to this show all the time. What were you doing on there? So now he's actually opened up to the Bible because of this podcast. Shout out my man Adam. No, that's funny. AKA Johnny Glees. It's incredible because I think that a Christian who doesn't have what you just described in this last episode will hit an alien announcement and they'll lose their faith because they're like, aliens don't fit into the gospel. Beings in the heavens, there can't be beings in the heavens. And we see this visceral reaction a lot on our channels. I was like, no, they're just something that I understand. They're nothing else. But I think that the ancient alien guys are walking away from the faith because Christians don't know how to explain aliens in their theology. They don't understand. Aliens can fit. Bigfoot can fit. Galactic wars can fit. Well, that's why Heiser would go to the UFO. I mean, he's famous when he was still alive. We talked to him about it. He said, I would go to the UFO conventions. They invite me to speak. And he's like, the reason I went there is these people were the most ready to receive the gospel. But the argument for Christians is they don't exist. That's not true. No, they exist. There are so many things there in the heavens. And you're outlying in these two verses between this gap theory that who knows what went on, what craziness happened. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. It's all real, including heavenly realm, physical vehicles, creatures that are not in our common zoology. They're all real. And so, yeah, absolutely. And so we have to really, again, God says in Daniel 12, knowledge will increase. As Christians, it's our duty to learn and understand these things because it bolsters our witness. That's the mission here. Our mission while we're here is to get souls on the ark. We're trying to get people on before the flood starts. And we have to be willing to engage in the supernatural as being real. The third flood. It won't be by water, though. Not by water, though, right? That's right. Because we've got rainbows. It's not by water. Ryan, I love this. Metaphorical. Remind us what the book's going to be called because this episode will come out before your book comes out. Yeah, yeah. So the book will be called The Earth Before Adam. Okay. And then I just want to encourage you because your other two books, you can talk about these as well, but this is a crazy time, man, because all of a sudden the biggest microphones in the world are talking about Nephilim. And you're a Nephilim guy. You've written two books about the Nephilim and this story. but it's everyone up to Joe Rogan and back down is now talking about this topic. All three. You've got Candace Owens. You've got Tucker Carlson. You've got Joe Rogan. You've got Sean Ryan. You've got these two. It's becoming, you know, I think Chuck Missler, if he's still alive, would be like, I told you. I was doing this in the 90s, you know. But it's coming into popular culture and to discourse in pop culture. But a lot of bad explanations of these things. Sure, yeah. That's where you come in. That's where you come in. So the two books? Yeah, so Judgment of the Nephilim. Yeah, my first book, that's the deep dive into the entire tracing of Genesis 3, right from the start, the pronouncement of the seed of the woman all the way through the Old Testament, explaining how this is not a Genesis story. The Nephilim is not a Genesis story. It's a Bible story. It's the story of our salvation because it goes to the heart of Satan trying to stop the Redeemer, the Messiah. And it weaves its way through the Old Testament. and then my second book, The Final Nephilim, deals with Revelation, the Antichrist, and how he is the last Nephilim. He is the literal offspring of Satan. Basically, why did Jesus say the end times will be like the days of Noah? Because if you want to understand the end times, look to the days of Noah. Why do you say that? Because again, it's all repeating. And so it's going to be the return of Satan's final attempt to once again introduce fallen angelic DNA into earth via the antichrist and the mark of the beast who gets into all that explains revelation the judgments armageddon and of course finishes with our our savior yeshua i love it because i think we're victorious i mean it's the most most of christendom would say that that just means that people are going to be bad and wicked but there's that's just the very small sliver of the story is that people are bad and wicked and you know i and i i love that we're we're teasing out and you're teasing out you've written two books on it we're just trying to talk about okay that there's much more to the days of Noah than people were real bad, you know? Exactly. Exactly. And it shows also not only was it more to it, it's that the flood judgment was a rescue by God. It was saving the last remnant of humanity so we could still be redeemed. So the Redeemer could be born as an act of love to save us. And same thing with the wars we see in the book of Joshua. Why did they happen? And, you know, I was explaining this again in the Uber to Miss Marjorie. I was telling her, I said, you know, I've had so many debates and I'm thankful for them. You know, when I used to do some street preaching on the streets in New York City and people would bring up, well, if your God is so loving and so wonderful, how could he say, go kill the women, the children, the animals, just kill it, wipe everybody out, genocide. And I said, well, you have to understand Genesis 6 and understand that physical fallen angels came into our realm and physically married women and physically procreated with them and created hybrids, and God is literally saving us from the last remnants of that so we don't become contaminated and disqualified from salvation. Amen. Your work is so important because a lot of people will comment, the Nephilim story is not that important. It's not that important. And I'm like, are you kidding? Like a lot of people defunct into the New Age because they don't put that in their story. Or, like you said, they walk away from their faith because God's just this – He's genocidal. Yeah, exactly. You need to understand it. You do. And again, for believers, you have to understand these things and explain it. And I praise God for the good emails and DMs I've gotten from people who said, I was so mad at God. People are literally saying that. I was mad at God because I could not understand the wars in Canaan. I could not justify the flood. I was one of them. I was one of them. Oh, there you go. But understanding this obviously changes your whole perspective and shows how much God actually loves us. He's just pulling us back. We're just running to touch the stove. you know our little kids want to put us in the hot stuff he's just pulling us back every time and so yeah might hurt a little bit but it's better than when the consequence of our own choices and so that's what god's doing and so understanding the nephilim just opens all that up it's like it's like we think the uh the story of humanity and the gospel in heaven it's like a three vhs movie and it's like remember the north and south when it was like 30 oh yeah tapes yeah all right Lonesome Dove. How many of those are there? 30 VHS. You pulled some old ones out of the old trunk. That's right. Hey, have you seen this movie? You're like, oh, no, we haven't. What a treat, bro. Episode 122 was the last time we did it, and we're into the almost 400s here. Wow. Way too long without having you grace our show. But what an honor, man. What's the book called again? The new book is The Earth Before Adam. The Earth Before Adam. All right. We're excited. Yeah. Thanks, Ryan. Thanks for having me on, fellas. Appreciate it. And then your other two books, they're on Amazon. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, of course, yeah. So, yeah, Judgment of Nephilim, the final Nephilim, they're available on Amazon, e-book, Audible. I'll have study guides. I put a lot of information in there. So, there are companion study guides as well and documentaries. You can find them also on my website. How do you find time, Ryan? I have no idea, but. This is a wild ride. Good on you, man. It takes me several episodes to figure out what the heck the person's trying to tell me. I'm like, okay, now I'm getting to a little bit. So if you're slow out there, thanks for taking us on that ride. Hopefully you know what we were talking about, but I loved it. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm