Jackie, Rickey, & the Death of the Black Baseball Player ft. Howard Bryant

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Skypop protein soda offers four delicious flavors with big taste and real benefits, light, refreshing and ready for wherever your day takes you. It's any time protein that helps you reach higher. Skypop protein soda reach for the sky. Get your Skypop protein soda now at Target or Harris Teeter. Welcome back to all the smoke baseball. Today we have a very special guest, someone that is actually a friend of mine and we're doing some cool work together behind the scenes that you guys will know about soon, but welcome to the show. Howard Bryant. What's up, man? How are you? Best selling author. You've done a lot of different things. Documentaries. But let's start with baseball used to be behind the scenes in that writing. Baseball season in full swing. Jackie Robinson day is right around the corner. When I say Jackie Robinson, what's the first thing that comes to mind for you? No, the first thing that comes to mind is, I mean, obviously legend. But really, I think the thing that gets me most about Jackie is just the timelessness of it, that he's so present and he played, well, only really two things hit me. One is that he retired in 1956 after the 56 season. But the other is that Rachel, his widow is still alive. She'll be 104 in July. And just that spirit of Robinson is still out there. All the players are wearing 42 on April 15th, which was a day, Jackie integrated the big leagues, April 15th, 1947. And it's just, I think the thing that hits me as we always talk about baseball and where, you know, where African-American players are, where everybody's at in the sport right now, just the fact that you can still, he's not old, dusty history, still present. Yeah. A lot of stuff you can tie to him to this day. Speaking of the black player, there's been a heavy decline in the game. And we've asked some greats like Bonds and Sheffield, the Mookie Betts, and more about why they feel that is, from your point of view, why is there such a lack of black baseball talent in the major leagues? Well, it's by design. I think that most importantly, we spend, I think the thing that has bothered me the most whenever we have these conversations, the default has been, well, black players, you know, black kids just don't want to play. They'd rather play basketball. They'd rather play football. It's nonsense. It's money. It's 100%. It's money. It's not just priced out. It's historically baseball. The black player became 10, 20%, 25% in the game because starting with the Negro League, starting with Jackie, black players were the cheapest commodity. You could get, you know, Jackie signed for $5,000. Willie May signed for $5,000. Hank Aaron signed for $6,000. And so for a time, those players were the cheapest commodity. You could get great players at a low price. Baseball as a sport, baseball is a white suburban game reinforced by foreign labor. That's the sport. It's not an American game, per se. It's a white suburban American game, but 35% of the game is Latino. And so when you look for players, where do you find them? Where does baseball look for players? They've got facilities in the Dominican, all the teams have academies down there. Right. And then the American players, where do they get those players? College. College is 1% black. So the black players in college are scholarship players, baseball is a non-revenue sport. So it's by design that if you're getting your players from college, they're going to be white. And if you're getting the rest of your talent from the Dominican or from Venezuela or from Mexico or Cuba, they're going to be Latino. So you're not developing black players the way you used to. No pipeline. No pipeline. And I remember talking to Dusty Baker about this, and when you really start looking at how the number has shifted, they replaced, essentially, black players with the Latino players. It's all money. If you put a ball in front of a kid, they're going to play with it. Right? I mean, that's always been my thing. If you look at the numbers, Latino players are not part of the draft. So a black American kid who's a first round pick. You got to pay him first round American dollars. You can buy 100 Dominican kids, 200 for the price of one American. That's the difference. And so whenever I hear, oh, well, we just don't want to play the game, everybody knows that the relationship between black Americans and baseball is the deepest of all the sports, and it goes back the longest. For our viewers and our fans, kind of tell them your background, and particularly the baseball space. Baseball. Well, I started. I started my career at the Oakland Tribune back in 1991. And it's funny because when I got there, I was covering perhaps like everybody else. And so back then, Jake Hidd was at St. Joe's, and he was a baseball player. And he was one of the guys that people, we knew he was going, everyone thought he could play in the NBA when he was coming out of high school. But there was also this piece of him that maybe he was going to play baseball too, because he was a great player. My first year on the beat was 1998 with the Oakland A's. I was at working at the San Jose Mercury News. And then I started covering the Yankees and then the Red Sox. And I've been doing baseball for a long time. Wrote my first book in 2002 about the history of integration in the Red Sox. Shout out. Wrote another book about steroids in baseball. Two biographies, one on Hank Aaron called The Last Hero 2006 and another in 2022 on Ricky Henderson. I got a quick story about Ricky and it's funny because we just sat down with CM Punk and he was telling me how this newer generation of wrestlers are more outspoken and kind of appreciative of greats. And they come up to him and talk and they take pictures and all this kind of thing. And Ricky Henderson was my favorite baseball player and I got a chance to meet him finally at Reggie Jackson had a softball game at the Coliseum, which was the last baseball. It was a softball game at the Coliseum and Ricky Henderson was there. And I was to the mind, I just, I come from the old schools. We don't really ask for pictures and that kind of thing. But I was just like, as a kid, 24 was everything. Lead off batter for the A. All I just recently like Oakland baseball is leaving. Ricky died like a month after that and it broke my heart that I didn't sit. But when I tell you, like there were so many big, it's a conceco there, LaRusso was there. There's so many guys there. But in the locker room, like Ricky was in his corner just telling stories and he had everyone lined up camp around them just listening. And I was kind of, it was Ricky's locker and then it was the bathroom to where the shower and shit were and then I was right there. I wasn't in the campfire standing up, but I was still kind of ear hustling over here. And he was just telling some of the dopest stories. People were just such and, oh, and I was just like, I was really sitting there like, when am I going to go ask him? When am I going to ask him? Go ask him. Stop being a bitch. Go ask for it. And I just didn't do it. And then he passes one month later. You wrote a book on him. Tell me about just Ricky. I hear a bunch of amazing stories. Harold Reynolds tells a story about how he won the stolen base. Yeah. The base crowd and Ricky hit him up and whatever his number was at the time, it was like Ricky gets that before I'll start breaking things up. It's true story. Yeah. The thing about Ricky, one of the reasons why I wanted to do Ricky was because one, you're dealing with just larger than life character, right? I mean, everybody wants to be Ricky. And I think about it. I thought about the post free agency athlete. That was really where Ricky started to hit me, where it was like, everybody in your in your profession spent a lot of years apologizing for your money. Like when the money got really big, especially baseball players, because there was so much labor strife, Ricky was really the first athlete in the modern era, the TV era. It's not newspaper anymore. Now it's TV. And now that money is real free agency money. I remember talking to Dusty Baker about it when Dusty and Hank Aaron were teammates in 74 when Henry broke the record. He was the highest paid player in the game at 240, 240,000 in April of 74. When Dusty hits free agency in 78 couple of years later, Dusty's making 595. Ricky's the first guy who's not afraid to say pay me. I'm not going to apologize. I'm I'm, you know, don't compare me to the electrician. Compare me to the guys in head of me making my money. And so I really thought he was like this, this great character who was who was indicative of this new era of the thing that love, hate relationship that the fans have with the players. They love you for what you give them, but they also hate you for all the money that you make and your talent. And also the stories about Ricky, were they true, were they not true? All the third person stuff and everything else. And also he was to me, he was one of those guys when he was playing. People couldn't stand him. And then that next generation, they started to love him. And then the next generation, they loved him even more. And so it was really this sort of this combination of Satchel Page and Yogi Berra are the first person, third person stories. Are they are they really true? And then how when he was playing, there were people who didn't think he was a Hall of Famer when he was playing. Wow, because they couldn't stand his brashness. They couldn't stand his blackness. They couldn't stand the fact that Ricky was so unafraid. To to be proud of his ability. And also you talk about load management, the way we talk about it today, the way they used to call Ricky a malingerer and Ricky was jaking it. Ricky didn't want to play. Ricky knew his body. Ricky knew his body and Ricky would tell you, you know, he and Tony LaRusse used to go at it and Ricky would say, you know, you know, I can go today. And Ricky was like, well, I mean, Tony would say. Yeah, but 75 percent of you is better than 100 percent of the other guys I got. And Tony had to admit that he was wrong about Ricky. And Tony was the one who said it in 1989. Now, Ricky's not a great player. And the reason why he said Ricky wasn't a great player was because great players play every single day. But when you go back and look at the record, nobody's breaking his records. Oh, no, no, no, no. You know, I mean, it's just it's I just thought I just thought it was fascinating how time shifts stuff. And now you add the analytics into it. He's better now than you thought he was when he was playing. Interesting. And he also brought that flair. I mean, I mean, he had the first neon gloves and the style and when he stole the bases, how you pop his collar, hitting the home run, coming out of the box, like doing a lot of different shit that that wasn't necessarily now it's not. I mean, we saw it a lot in the WBC, which I love just the energy of the game. But like popping your collar out the home run box back when he was doing it wasn't that's why they hated him. Because once again, baseball is all so steeped in tradition. Baseball doesn't know how to adapt. Like one of the biggest differences, especially in basketball, and we were talking about this before basketball adjusts to the people who play it. You watch basketball, you don't play music during basketball, like during the game, sometimes during the court, you can hear music, right? And so basketball adapts, you know, in the 20s and the 30s, it was a Jewish game, Jewish urban game in the 50s and becomes a more Midwestern white game. Pretty much since the 19 early 70s and absolutely after the merger in 76. It's a black urban game. It's a black game, right? It's a black game culturally. It's a black game, demographically. And basketball adapts to that, right? Baseball still plays. Baseball style is still Jim Crow segregation, 1900s game. They still play by those same rules, right? They don't play like that in Japan. They have fun in the Dominican. As we saw during the world baseball classic, they have. But American baseball, you hit a home run, I hit you in the back, right? I mean, they still have all those old school rules. You hit a home run, I'm not supposed to celebrate. I'm not supposed to be happy. I'm not supposed to look at all the grief they gave Ken Griffey, Jr. for having a hat on backwards, hitting that during batting practice. And so Ricky style is something that they would look at and go. But then the next generation loved him. And that is the thing that baseball has all that difficulty. Adapting to the new game, adapting to TV, you're supposed to have style. One quick thing about Ricky, everyone knows that Ricky snap catch, right? Ricky has a golf snap on it. The first Ricky snap catch. Was the final out of a no hitter. Was it really? 1983, and he would talk about how it was an optical illusion. Like, Ricky, what have you dropped that ball? He's like, that would have been my ass. But just shows you how much confidence he had that he was going to introduce the legendary snap catch and the Mike Warren 1983 no hitter, Carlton Fisk pop fly. Look it up. It's on YouTube. I remember a friend of mine, I'm not going to embarrass him. Tried to snap catch in high school and the shit didn't work and it broke his nose. It was up in the face for practice. Yeah, you know who you are. She was funny. New book, King of Ponds, Jackie Robinson and Paul Roverson. We got it right here. Explain to the audience what this book is about. The book is all about two gigantic black figures that one of them people don't don't even really remember. Paul Roverson is one of the greatest Americans his country's ever produced. He was one of the greatest football, college football players of all time. He was a lawyer. He was a concert singer. He's an opera singer. He was an actor. He played in this little startup called the National Football League. And because of his political views, because he was left wing, because he was a socialist, because he was he was not willing to disavow his friends in the Communist Party. This country went after him, went after his career, went after his money, took his passport away, wouldn't let him travel. And in 1949, the the Brooklyn Dodgers, Brooklyn, yeah, Brooklyn Dodgers president, Branch Rickey, had essentially encouraged or coerced Jackie Robinson to testify against him. In front of the House and American Activities Committee. And at the time, Jackie didn't want to do it. But there was a real conversation about whether African Americans were loyal to this country. And here's Jackie. Felt he had a responsibility. Reminds me a lot of what's happening today. There were a lot of people who were saying that black people need to sit this one out. We didn't elect Donald Trump. We didn't elect him once or twice. And so we need to sit this one out. Why this is in our fight. This is your fight. And there were a lot of people at that time in 1949 who said to Jackie, why would you testify against another black man as great as Robeson? Why would you testify in service of this committee that doesn't want you to have equal rights and wouldn't shake your hand? And Jackie's response was because this country's mine, too. And it's important to me that if people are questioning my loyalty, you're questioning our loyalty, that maybe the very people who support civil rights are going to abandon us. And he felt a responsibility. So in a lot of ways he was caught in between these two poles. And that's really what the book is about. It's about this idea of tuness, about, you know, is it possible to be patriotic and also fight segregation at the same time and how these two guys both ended up fairly disillusioned at the end of their lives? Would they get a chance to meet? And that's what's wild. You got these two guys at that fame level, both of them in Harlem as well. Never met. Really? They had never met each other, but these political forces put them in the same, put them in the same and pitted themselves against each other. And that was one of the things that also reminds me, as we know today, you know, Jackie being in that position that he didn't really want to be in. But as I've said before, from a more contemporary standpoint today, you know, the black person who was willing to publicly criticize other black people, they'll have a job for life. And so in a lot of ways, Jackie was used to to testify against against Robeson. What do you think around the momentum with the with baseball the last few years? I think the WBC was a big success. Obviously, the pitch clock, the attendance ratings are up. I feel like there's a new energy around baseball. I'm not just saying that because we're covering it now, but I kind of I really feel that there's kind of a different. Outtake, I want the breath, I want to breath a fresh air. Yeah. And I'm really glad that you all are doing baseball because I think you can you can help and and bring a different energy to baseball, especially as a former NBA player, because the one thing that the NBA has is partnership. Baseball hates each other and they've been hating each other for a really long time. And baseball is baseball has a moment going right now. Baseball, baseball is a thing. I mean, that World Series is one of the greatest World Series I've ever seen. Yes. Right. You've got a world superstar with Ohtani. You've got, you know, Toronto is back. You've got an international team that's back in the World Series for the first time in 30 plus years. And what are you going to do? Right. Now you're going to shut the game down next year over labor. Now you've got to there's a real possibility more than 50 50 that baseball is going to, you know, cancel the entire season unless they get a salary cap, unless they get some other relief that they want, which would be a colossal, colossal mistake. And I got to tell you, I was wrong about the WBC. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I thought it was sort of gimmicky when they first started it, you know, 20 years ago, and part of the reason was is that it's really, really difficult to ask athletes to go max effort game mode, batter Lee in the season. They're going to get guys. Timing is crazy. Yeah. But boy, it was fun this year. And it was fun. And it was in the Americans were the ones who didn't quite know how to have fun with it. And so baseball has a moment and you're really, really hoping. Don't blow this moment. You got a shot right now to, to, to be something that you haven't been in a really long time, you know, let labor mess it up. And their deal is up after 27. Yeah. Well, hopefully they did that. No, it's 26 after this season. After this season. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so we're going to find out about negotiation and about whether or not they understand the moment. And what's really fascinating about all of this is, is that baseball has spent so much time fighting. Um, and I get it from the owner's standpoint in some ways, the owners are upset that because baseball doesn't have a salary cap, the other sports, the, um, their valuations are going up. I mean, the Lakers went for 10 billion. Baseball franchises are not growing at the same clip. They're not growing at the same rate. And the reason why they're not is because they don't have the same cost controls that the other sports have. You know, if you buy a team, you know what the costs are going to be. Not with baseball. You're going to give one soda was 765 million. But on the other hand, parody does not come from salary caps. I mean, the fans, the players are the game and it's really interesting. It's going to be interesting to see what they do. It's going to be interesting to see how it's covered because everyone is talking about the players, what you have to get in line. Basketball has a salary cap. Football has a salary cap. Hockey has a salary cap. But people also don't look at it the other way, which is give these players some credit for standing together in labor solidarity that they understand that they do make the game and that the superstars aren't going to fold the way the NFL did back in 87, that these guys have an idea of their worth. You don't go to the games to watch the owners. And right now baseball is in a moment and let's hope they don't blow it. The Yankees did it. The Dodgers are doing it. Um, when they just open up these blank checkbooks and go out there and get this bad, I mean, obviously this is the reason why they're going to go into negotiations. Is this bad for baseball? Well, I mean, here's how I look at it. And basketball is in a way different position than, than baseball because basketball is a best player winsport. You've got to get one of them. You've got to get one of the great players in order to, you know, you can go from 29 wins to 61 wins of David Robinson's on your team, right? That can happen. But the thing that hits me is how hard are you trying to win? If you're the Pittsburgh Pirates, are you actually trying to win? Are you telling me that you're doing the very best you can do? Part of the narrative that bothers me is I'm not saying that the, the, the finances are out of control. I mean, if you're the Minnesota twins, you're not going to be able to get certain guys and it is true that the Dodgers are off the charts in terms of payroll. However, how much money do you actually need to win? You don't need the Dodgers payroll to win games. The Brewers last year, they beat the Dodgers during the regular season, lost to them during the playoffs. The Dodgers were back to back nights away from losing. They were one play away from losing. You don't have to match them salary for salary, dollar for dollar. And I feel like, yeah, do you need some sort of cost control? You probably do at some level, but do you actually need a salary cap for baseball to be good? No. And the reason why I say that is because go back and look at all the teams who have won over the past 20 years, more baseball teams. If you go back to the last to the Yankee dynasty back in 2000, the last time they had won back to back championships, more teams in baseball have won the World Series than any other sport. So what does that actually really tell you? I think what's really happening is, is that people, there's an anti-labor feeling in this country. There's an anti-player movement in this country. It's always been there. And they just want baseball players to get in line and the players won't do it. Good. The athletic world, a story about baseball has overtaken basketball as a second most popular sport in America. Thoughts based on what? I mean, I don't know, based on like, what's the, what's, what's, what's the measure? Yeah. Um, we all know that people love to argue and complain about basketball. We know that no matter what, if the, if the, if the sport is fun, people say, oh, well, the ratings are down, right? They always find a way to complain about basketball just as well as baseball. People always find a way to complain about baseball. So I don't know. Hard to tell. Hard to tell. I think especially too, because you've got to take in consideration how big basketball is on social media. And that's how a lot of people consume instead of like my kids love basketball, but they'll rarely watch a game, but they'll catch the highlights on social media. So you were born in 1980. Yep. Right. So I got you by a few years. So when I was a kid, Reggie Jackson was our guy, even though I'm a Bostonian, that baseball had national stars. It was a, you know, you, wherever you went, somebody knew when they saw Pete Rose or when they saw Reggie, you know, you knew who those guys were. The last time baseball really had a national guy, but no matter where you were, if you were in Iowa, LA, Miami, everybody knew. Very Ken Griffey Jr. Congratulate. Probably Ken Griffey Jr. Right. Right around 93, 94 when he was really, really cranking. Baseball made a conscious decision to be a regional sport. And that's a, that's a decision that, that they made. Are you really going to tell me that you don't believe that a baseball player can capture the country the way they used to? The argument in baseball is, is that, no, what we're a regional sport. So our guys have very, very high Q ratings in our individual cities, but we don't have a LeBron. We don't have a Kobe. We don't have a Tom Brady, but I don't really think that's the case. I think you've got, you've got, you've got Shoya Otani. Really going to tell me that you cannot have him be a national superstar. So you feel it's, it's the effort behind him or behind these players pushing it because I remember in my teenage years, I mean, there was a ton of guys you just met in my teenage years are in the, you know, mid nineties to late nineties and there was Griffey, McGuire, Bond. So you name them and these were all recognizable faces no matter where you were household in the country. No, base baseball decided it was regional. Hmm. And obviously you've got some language barrier stuff with, you know, Otani's not speaking English member Sammy Sosa when they were doing the Pepsi commercials back in the nineties, he would just smile, he would just smile at the camera. So you do have to have some sort of star power. You got to decide that you want to be a superstar. But I've just always rejected the idea that because it's baseball, you can't be national because we remember that that was, that that was not the case. What's up, everyone? This is Dr. J. Barnett and I am the host of Just Heel with Dr. J. It's hard to believe that the first phone call ever happened over 150 years ago. Just think about that. I also want you to think about what time is it? It's spring time. It's time to get outside and enjoy this beautiful weather, hang out with some family and friends. Listen, I tell you who I'm going to connect with. I'm going to connect with myself because it's my birthday month. Yes, I am a spring baby. I'm going to take me some runs. I'm going to take me some long walks. I'm probably going to get some brunch, too. You know, a little birthday brunch. And you know what? Over all of these years and phone calls, AT&T has been there connecting people in meaningful ways. This is more than just a story of technology and innovation. It's a story of human connection. And listen, with over 150 years of connecting, I just want to take this opportunity to remind you to call someone that you care about because that's what it's about, connecting. Connecting changes everything. AT&T. What if your soda actually did something for you? Introducing Skypop protein soda with 10 grams of complete protein, zero sugar and 45 calories. Skypop protein soda offers four delicious flavors with big taste and real benefits, light, refreshing and ready for wherever your day takes you. It's any time protein that helps you reach higher. Skypop protein soda, reach for the sky. Get your Skypop protein soda now at Target or Harris Teeter. People don't listen to radio ads while you're driving or making a sandwich. Your subconscious pays full attention. So relax, let it take over. Sunday makes yard care simple with a custom plan based on your soil, climate and yard size. No pesticides, no harsh stuff. Custom Sunday lawn plan. 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Visit Bahamar.com today and discover a vacation destination where memories are made for a lifetime. Bahamar, life spectacular. This is Jana Kramer from Windown with Jana Kramer. Instead of giving your mom something that fades, give her something that becomes part of her home this Mother's Day. The Lenox Spice Village is a set of 24 hand-painted little houses that are actually spice jars, perfect for anyone who loves to cook, entertain or enjoy the little details that make everyday life special. As a mom, I love gifts that help turn ordinary moments into memories. Charming, timeless and meant to be used. This is one of those pieces she'll treasure. And once you see it, you'll want it for your own home too. Find the full collection at Lenox.com slash Spice Village. The steroid era. You wrote a whole book on the beginning of it. I think steroids save baseball at a certain point. Am I am I am I crazy to do that? No, you're not crazy. These are again, that's the best time. I remember my teenage years. I'm reminiscing again. Forgive me, y'all. But this was the best time. I mean, obviously I'm a football, baseball, basketball player, football and basketball and my two favorite sports, but I couldn't wait to get home to watch that race. Yeah, it's true. And it can you make the argument that the steroid era saved the game 100 percent and the MLB played into it. I mean, chicks dig the long ball. They did commercials and all kinds of other shit that went along with it. And they did. They did. And as a Hall of Fame voter, they left it to us. And this is one of the reasons why I stopped voting for the Hall of Fame was because it was like, well, wait a minute, you didn't give us any rules on this. You gave us rules on Pete Rose. We couldn't vote for him. They gave us rules on Joe Jackson. He couldn't. He's not on the ballot. We couldn't vote for him. Right. But you profited off of steroids. Your managers are in the Hall of Fame who managed these guys. Tony LaRusse is in the Hall of Fame. He had he had McGuire. He had Konseco. You know, he had Ruben Sierra or the others, guys who were accused of using steroids. Right. Joe Torres in the Hall of Fame and Roger Clemens isn't in the Hall of Fame. Alex Rodriguez isn't in the Hall of Fame. So you're going to punt and leave that to me. You're going to make me the management stooge for not voting for these guys when you you put all your guys in. But Selig has a statue in front of Miller Park in Milwaukee. So you have you you erect a statue to yourself. But you leave it to us to keep these guys out. So I didn't think that was very fair. When you say leave it to us, is it kind of like a a consensus or what's understood doesn't need to be explained like everyone knows not to vote for the. I mean, because very. No, because what I used to do with my Hall of Fame vote was I was I would always call the Hall of Famers. I would call guys. I would call Jill Morgan. I would call Dennis Eckersley. I would call a lot of guys and say, what do you think? Because once again, like we cover the game. Right. But we see the game differently than the way you see the game. And so what I was always trying to do with my with my ballot was to try to make it a panorama. Try to get everybody. Here's what his peers thought about him. Here's what I saw. Here's here are all the different layers and ways here the way here's the way the fans saw it. And I would ask all those questions. The Hall of Famers didn't want us to vote for the steroid guys either. Really? In fact, there had always been a movement that of bonds and some of those guys got in. We're not coming as a protest. So, you know, try to blame the writers all the time. And it's a massive thing. I was just going to ask that. I was going to say what that could because I mean, I feel like as former players, like whether you get the recognition or not from the media or the fans or whatever, I think you really hang your hat on what your peers think about you. Those old school, those guys were old school. Very old school. And those old school guys are like no drugs, even though they were using drugs. They were using grays and they were using, you know, lead and whatever else they were using. And some of those guys would say, hey, would I use steroids if I had the chance? I don't know. But they were very, very clear. You cheated. And so my attitude has always been if Bonds gets into the Hall of Fame, he earned it. If he doesn't get into the Hall of Fame, he earned it. Diddo for Arrod, you know, did it did it for all those guys. You can't look at them and say there's no reason why you're not in. Right. We all know why they're not in. It's not like the writers or the now the veterans committees now that they don't they're making a decision, they're making a judgment and they're making a call. But here, Matt, here's the other thing. I think I've softened on this because I look at it this way. There is the death penalty or there's parole. That's kind of how I see it. You know, there's life without parole or life with parole or whatever. Right. And so from a parole standpoint, if we're going to do it from a legal, you know, use the legal jargon, if you put Barry Bonds in the Hall of Fame right now, 20 years after he retired and he's the greatest baseball player I've ever seen, right, we all know that he paid the price for that. We all know it's not like, oh, man, we don't know why Barry didn't get in, you know, in 2027. So to me, it sort of feels like even if you do put these guys in now, they've all paid a pretty, haven't they paid a pretty good price? My question enough to cut you off is I mean, you look at some of these guys that, you know, and my thing is, it was it was it against there was no rules on it at the time. Correct. It's against the law, but it wasn't a rule in MLB, right? Now, it wasn't a rule in MLB at the time. However, my counter to that had always been if there was no rule and we were all acting ignorantly because there was no rule. Why'd you hide it? What'd you lie for? I mean, everybody knew you're not supposed to be doing it. We all knew what everybody knew what was happening. So then my second question to that is you look at Mark Bawyer's rookie year where he hits 40 plus home runs and Barry Bonds had about two or three MVPs before he even was accused of. Yeah. So you know, these guys can play the game at the highest level. I don't believe that is part of the question. I don't think anybody is looking at Barry Bonds and go, I wonder if he was talented enough to be on. That's not the question. The conversation is the drugs. We're talking about drugs. And I remember when, when I did use in the game in 05 and I was on 60 minutes with Mike Wallace and had to run down to spring training the next day, Derek Jeter comes by and hits me in the leg with the bat and he goes, Hey, 60 minutes. We're not all doing this, you know. So they all had the same conversations. And and I felt and I do feel like when people say, oh, you can't have a Hall of Fame without Barry Bonds. Yeah. I mean, there's this is the price. When people talk about legacy, this is the price. Everybody lost. I mean, the players got to keep their money. You know, sure, there's that. But really this whole generation of players, Maguire, Palmero, A-Rod, Sosa, Clemens, Brogier. Exactly. I mean, you know, all of them, and you're looking at this and you're going, was it worth it? I remember talking to Jason Giambi about this and I and I covered G and he's one of my all time favorites. And if you ever heard of a great guy, you know, he, as I always say, there are guys who make the job easy, guys who make the job hard. Jason made the job very, very, very easy. I'm sure you had it on your side as a player. There are writers who walked in the room who made the shit easy. And there are guys who are like, come on now, I want to deal with you. And I remember Jason was the only guy and I remember this like it was yesterday. We were sitting there at Legends at Steinbrenner Field. When Jason had finally got cornered in this opinion and the Balco Grand Jury and it was all looked in the camera and somebody said, Jason, did you use steroids? Jason looked in the camera and he said, no. And everybody there who knew and who had covered Jason. Nobody was trying to get him. Nobody was out to get him. We all felt terrible because we knew what a good dude he was. And Jason, the next year, after all the grand jury stuff went down, he was the only guy who just walked over to me and he shook my hand and he said, I apologize for lying to you. Really? And he said, I was stuck. There was nothing I could do. They all the cameras were me. And I was like, gee, you didn't apologize to me. Like we all knew what was going down. And it was a very difficult situation for everybody. So this whole idea that everybody is like, yeah, fuck these guys. It's not really like that. I wish there was a way, obviously, but I wish there was a way that we could have seen if steroids didn't hit baseball. What happened to baseball? What would have happened to baseball is I think a huge question because it was trending downward when this. Because of the strike. No, I mean, they cancel the World Series. Yeah. I mean, what happens to basketball if you cancel the NBA funds? Right. I mean, the fans are like, we're not coming. You know, we don't have to come back to this. And so, yeah, so immediately you get Ripken and Ripken's out there shaking hands with everybody and really bringing that goodwill back. And then you get and you get so some Maguire in 98 and then you get all of it. And it does. It made you feel good about the sport. It made you want to watch the sport. And you're looking at the, you know, did so so hit one tonight. Did Maguire hit one? And all of a sudden you got a whole generation of people. The game is back. And there's no question about what that moment in time was like. But at the same time, very soon after that. When bonds hit 73 in 01, everybody in the game was like, you know what I mean? It was like, all right, enough. All right. But because Barry, Barry was so good that you looked at him and you're like, this isn't. Basically, I mean, he's too good. He's literally better. He's beating the averages of, you know, it's a video game now. And so that was when everybody was like, OK, you know, we got to do something, right? We got to do something. And so that's when sort of the jig was up. But I mean, I still look at that time period. And it was so uncomfortable. You would walk in a dugout. I remember I was in Seattle one day. We're in Seattle. The A's are playing the Mariners in the year. The Mariners won 116 games. And I'm sitting on the rail in the dugout. And the some of the A's coaches are watching Brett Boone take grounders. And Brett Boone, I think had like 141 RBIs that year, some crazy steroid error numbers. And they're all tapping their hip. The whole time. He's sticking the needle in his ass. Right. I mean, they're all just accusing each other of everything. And the reason why I wrote that book was oh, two were in. San Diego, the Yankees are playing the Padres interleague. And we're just hanging out, you know, three o'clock in the afternoon. Nothing happening, right? And here comes Reggie. And Reggie walks over to me and he walks over to our to the group, a bunch of beat writers, and he's all salty. And I'm like, well, you mad about gaming and started it. Like, you know, we should wake up on the wrong side of the bed. And he's like, no, because you motherfuckers aren't doing your jobs. I'm like, what did we do? And he's like steroids. He's like, you guys aren't writing about it. Everybody knows what's happening. And he said, he said, of course, because it's Reggie, it was personal. He's like, I'm six, I'm the home run list. I'm going to be 10th in 10 years. And he is. And so, you know, he was like, protect my legacy. Right. All right. You guys are protecting these guys. Protect me too. And so this was the climate in the sport. That's heavy, man. And I said to people, I was like, hey, and then, you know, you have a whole bunch of fans going, well, how come you didn't write about this? Because I don't want to get sued. That's why if you got it, you better have the goods on this. You can't just accuse people of stuff. Wait, this is a soda? Yeah. And it has protein? 10 grams. No sugar? Zero. And it actually tastes good. It's Skypop. Skypop protein soda delivers the refreshing taste you want from a real soda. Crisp and delicious with 10 grams of complete protein, zero sugar and just 45 calories. So you're not choosing between great taste and real benefits. You're getting both in every sip. Skypop protein soda. Reach for the sky. Get your Skypop protein soda now at Target or Harris Teeter. We've been duped, hoodwinked, conned for 50 years. The lawn care industry sold us toxins in a bag and made our yards more toxic than a bad relationship. Sunday helps you ditch the chemicals and feed your lawn the good stuff. Soybean proteins, iron, seaweed, molasses, ingredients that get your soil giggling like an over-served mom at the block party. 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Chill day, got you going out, got you. And every purchase gives back, which I love. Go to Diff Eyeware.com and define your style. That's Diff Eyeware.com. You're welcome. So this is the climate of the sport. Yeah, that's a heavy cloud. You know what I mean? And it's like people just like, oh, you know, you guys are writers and it's a witch hunt. No, this was an industry wide failure. Everybody failed. Interesting. Well, they bounce back and we love to see it. I want to ask you about a couple guys for we get out of here. Ken Griffey, Jr., one of my favorites, obviously was on trajectory to be one of the greatest players of all time. Injuries caught up with him. But what would stand out when I say Ken Griffey? For me personally, I don't know. He hates me for some reason. Does he? I don't know why. I never interviewed him. I don't get it. That's the first thing that sticks out to me. His talent. His talent. Oh, man, like let's put it this way. The national superstar thing we were talking about. That Nintendo video game, Ken Griffey baseball, once again, brings everybody into the sport. It was a fun game. It was like, you know, the Griffey for president commercials, the Nike commercials and the like superstar, superstar off the chart, superstar, joy to watch superstar, six, three, you know, 200 pounds runs runs like a deer in center field, superstar, all the things. Miss beautiful swing. And then the score, you know, and like you watch him and you go, oh, right. People who make you want to do this make you want to be part of it. And and, you know, Junior had his own demons about being a child star and the whole thing about being the son of a of a great player as well, you know, with Ken Griffey. But for the fans watching in the seats, he's one of those guys. You stop what you were doing when he was coming to bat. And if you had ten dollars in your pocket and a ticket to see him was nine, you would give you money to watch him play. Absolutely. Bo Jackson. Interesting character. Bo Jackson as a baseball player is one of the great what ifs. I mean, both he and Dion, one of the two of the great what ifs. Because either one of them, I think Bo was a better football player than baseball player and was probably going to be an infinitely better football player than baseball player. Dion is obviously Hall of Fame, but Dion could have been Hall of Fame in both. Oh, I mean, Dion was that good business as a baseball player. I mean, you watch him play and watch him round the you know, watch him round the bases, watch him run. I mean, all of it. And he he says it, you know, if he had just decided to like give to baseball, obviously you don't take away that football talent at a cornerback. If I were him, I would have made the same choice. But boy, as a baseball player, he could have been. I mean, everything. Wow. And I was going to say, and that is the other reason when people say, oh, yeah, you know, black, you know, black kids don't bullshit. Right. I remember sitting there when I was covering the politically incorrect Washington Redskins before they were the commanders. When I was at the Washington Post, I remember sitting there when A-Rod re-upped his deal and he had gotten 275 million. And I was sitting there. It was me, Sean Taylor, Philip Daniels, Ronaldo, Nguyen and Andre Carter. We're all just sitting there talking. Oh, that's the piece to Sean Taylor. And we're talking about A-Rod's contract. And we're going back and forth and they're nodding and Sean nods his head and goes, damn, he better not get hurt. Two hundred and seventy five million. And I was like, well, his contract's guaranteed. He's like, well, not if he gets hurt. I'm like, guaranteed. Now, you say that to a football player where you just get, you know, at any time. They were like this. I mean, they were so stunned. They didn't know that those contracts were one hundred percent guaranteed. And what was the reason why this was interesting was because Sean Taylor grew up Liberty City, right? All these guys, all the guy, all the Miami guys, because Santana Moss was on the other side of the club. I was saying the same thing. They all came up playing baseball. Ronaldo, Nguyen, Chicago came up playing baseball. They all played baseball. And then they made a business decision because college was either paid for if you played football or not paid for if you played baseball. So once again, when people say that that that baseball just doesn't appeal to black people is nonsense, it's the money. Right. If you look for players, you'll find them. Where does baseball look for its talent? Baseball looks for its talent in the Dominican, in Latin America and in suburban America. That's where you find your players. And that's why when you look at the number of black players, now a lot of those black players are the sons of former players. Money. Yeah, came from it. Well, Howard, thank you for your time. Good luck with your book. Look forward to continue to build with you and soaking up stories and in game from you, man. Right. No, my pleasure. Time to go. That's a wrap. You can catch this on all the smoke productions, you too, in the Draft Kings Network. See you guys. Wait, this is a soda? Yeah. And it has protein? 10 grams. No sugar? Zero. And it actually tastes good? It's Skypop. Skypop protein soda delivers the refreshing taste you want from a real soda. Crisp and delicious with 10 grams of complete protein, zero sugar and just 45 calories. So you're not choosing between great taste and real benefits. You're getting both in every sip. Skypop protein soda. Reach for the sky. Get your Skypop protein soda now at Target or Harris Teeter. Get ready for the wildest site your lawn has ever seen. 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