Escaping Polygamy and Starting Over ft. Ashley Sandmire

Things that I wish that I knew when my husband and I left the polygamous religion we were born and raised in. I thought that I was going to have to share him and have sister wives. We were told to lie about it. I've had the most bizarre crazy shit happen. My brother took his life a little over eight years ago. This has got to stop. Your story is so fascinating. You have gone through so much. Tell me about your childhood. My dad had 46 kids. He was abusive in every way. It was always taught, you do what the man says and you will obey. The brainwashing and the toll that it takes, that's scary. I got married at 18. Who the hell let me do that? He was like, I don't know if I want multiple wives. I would be like, am I enough? When I gave birth to my daughter, me and my husband were like, she can't live like that. Is your story going to be something you're going to be just very honest about? What is even appropriate to tell a seven-year-old? Do you ever get scared that you left the church? There's a lot of fear. I know that there are people living that way that don't want to, and they don't know how to get out. What do you want people to take away? I felt bitter and angry because of the way that I grew up, but you can't live life like that. Get up, get the fuck out, and leave. So Ashley, thank you for being here on Chloe in Wonderland. You did, I think it was a podcast for someone else, and I saw it on TikTok. and you were talking about your story and all that you've been through. And your story is so fascinating, but something that really drew me to you is you have so much grace and compassion for all the players in your life. And from what I saw, you didn't come from this place of this victim stance. You came from a place of really wanting to educate and inform and talk about your journey. It's really a beautiful way to position life and to position all that you've gone through. And I really was so enamored by you and your energy and all that. And so I really wanted you to come on. And I'm so grateful that you did. Thank you. I appreciate that. I feel so honored to share my story with you. I'm like such a vibey person and I just feel like just like a calm vibe. Yeah. So good. I've shared it before, but I feel like it's always nerve wracking the first time. And so I feel like I feel more comfortable to just share more and be more vulnerable. So, oh, well, I feel so honored that you're on. I really do. And I know you flew in from Utah today. So thank you for doing that. So first, I wanted you to tell me, tell the viewers, the listeners about your childhood and who you are, the type of family that you were born into, because I don't know if a lot of people know about your history. I grew up in a very broken version of polygamy growing up so my dad had six wives at one point but my family split up when I was two years old and I like to say that I grew up in like a divorced home like to the next level because yeah there's just so many adults involved and my mom chose to stay with my dad whereas the other wives left and I feel like that also like added a lot into my life and maybe more trauma because my mom chose to stay. So what was your living situation like? So your dad had six wives were the six wives you guys all have different like one wife like your mom and your siblings would be in one home and then every wife in their So before my family split up, they actually all lived in trailers and like a trailer court and no AC, like they were just scraping by. And that's, it's just like for every family so different, but that's how it was for mine. Like everybody had their own trailer. But then when my family split up, we moved to like a little town called Lehigh in Utah until I was about five. and then um my dad wanted to start like his own like community of the religion down a little bit south in utah in a little town called mayfield um it never ended up really happening like a few people moved down there but i lived there like up until i moved out at 17 you guys were raised is it flds so i think that's like the most common one that people know is flds and that's like Warren Jeffs. So I grew up in the AUB. I don't know if you've heard of the show Sister Wives. Yes. So the Browns, I grew up in the same religion as them. And in that religion, AUB, is polygamy taught? Yeah. It's very like you need to live this way. That's like the main purpose of living that religion is to have multiple wives or live plural marriage is what they call it. because that gets you to eternal heaven. I was watching the documentary that you suggested. Keep Sweet, Pray, Obey. Keep Sweet. So that's the Warren Jeffs one, yes. So I watched that. Man, that was hard to watch. I actually didn't finish the end, because I was like, this is gross. I can't handle this. Especially when you have kids. Oh, I know. Like, everything hits different when you're a mom. Everything. Everything hits different. So it was hard. And then, of course, then I'm like, I'm very empathetic. I was like, oh, then I'm thinking about you and like what any of this is something that correlated with your life. It was a lot. So in the documentary, it's saying about the more wives you have, the more you're going to get into heaven, but it's all about the male perspective. And then someone's interviewed another gentleman and they're like, so the producer was like, okay, you keep talking about the men. Where do the women go when they go to heaven? And it's just like constant laughter. And they're like, oh, we don't really know. Like it's the women are not held in any high regard from what I gathered. Yeah. Is that how you felt when you were in that religion? Yeah, I feel like everybody's experience can be different. But for me personally, growing up, I do feel like it was very much like you do what the man says. He's the head of the house and you will obey. And so I guess growing up, I was exposed to a lot of things. Like I would say Warren Jeff's polygamy was like the FLDS is a lot like more intense than the one that I grew up in. I would say mine is one of the quote unquote better ones to grow up in for sure. but I feel like it also depends on like the family that you were raised in and for me we were like maybe we didn't have Warren Jeffs but we still had pedophiles that were always allowed to be at our house and they know that they're creeps why are they always at our house every day hitting on us all these inappropriate things and it was always just taught like it doesn't matter like you don't really get a choice and as a woman and that always like bugged me but it was like hard in that sense of like finding your voice and also being told you don't really have one right and it sounds like your mom I imagine she got married young very young and it sounds and I have no idea but a little bit of your story. I would imagine maybe your mom was sort of groomed or put into this position herself. Yeah. I think that she was. She was 17. Yeah. And my dad is 24 years older than her. So she was 17 and he was like 40 years old. And I think as I've become a mom, it's just like making me realize even more how messed up some things are. And she didn't really get a say. Like it was just like, well, this guy's interested in me and what they do is courting. And so he asked about her to her dad and then her dad said, yeah, you can date her. And some dads are like awesome and they're like, nope, she's not interested. You can't date. Some are like, no, you have to give it a shot. And that's how my mom's dad was. That's how my dad was. and so your dad would say yes on your behalf yeah and just like tell my sisters like well you have to give him a shot my sister had to date this like way older man and she was like so creeped out by him and was just like no I don't want to but my dad made her and he like came to our house we had dinner with him that's kind of like how the courting starts is like you get to know them you and start dating them and sometimes they have multiple wives so then you get to know the other wives and this guy didn't have other wives yet but my sister was young she's probably 17 18 and I just remember it being so uncomfortable and I was younger because I'm like five years younger than her and I was just like what is going on yeah and that's traumatizing in and of itself just being a witness to that. You have such compassion and grace for people, especially the ones that maybe put you in the line of fire at times. And it says so much about your integrity and character of a person. But I would fight if it were me like, okay, I love and respect my mom. And I also have empathy because her parents didn't protect her. So she knows no better. Yeah. But then you're also like, but you should know better. But that's not okay. Yes. Because I feel that exactly what you're saying. I would be torn into two ways. And so when I was researching your story, I was like, oh, like you want to be like, why did you do that to me? But then you're like, but someone did that to you. So I get it. Yeah. And then I'm sure, you know, at this point or when she was 17 for until she had all 12 of you guys, probably the brainwashing that was happening to her young mind. Like it's. 17 is so little. So little. I know we feel so grown at 17, but we're not. I know you feel grown at 17. I got married at 18 and I'm like, who the hell let me do that? Totally. I got married at 24 and I question all this. I'm always like 24. I mean, I, it was amazing, but I'm like, that is a baby. A baby. Yes. But I can't understand maybe the two angels you have on your shoulder, like, because you also want to be entitled to your feelings about like, why did like to be that little girl, like mommy, I want help protect me. But then you're also sort of wanting to be a mother. I still go through this right now because being a mother myself, I'm like, but how could you? Because I grew up the same way and I was like, no, this isn't okay. And I was able to like work through that and be like, no, find my voice. I don't like this. This isn't okay. And it was becoming a mom that made me leave, that helped me leave. Because when I gave birth to my daughter, me and my, I'm going to get emotional. That was just like the change for me because me and my husband were like, she can't live like that. That's not the life that we want for her. And we don't, we want her to be loved and protected and cared for because that's what she deserves. And so then like, I have that dug and pull with my mom. Cause I'm like, why didn't you the second I became a mother I was like no this isn't okay but then I still have that compassion where I'm like well crap you didn't even get a chance right you were so young got married so young just kept popping babies out every two years and also having that many kids too the postpartum the way that we feel about ourselves and sometimes messes with yeah it does and we do become sometimes weaker emotionally or like what we're like we don't feel like we have the strength to do certain things sometimes I feel bad because your mom is still a person too like sometimes we put our parents on these pedestals first time living too yeah yeah and that many kids it does affect you and not only that but like I had other siblings coming to our house all the time she was having to mother them too and anytime some of my older siblings were like lashing out, having struggles. They would send them to our house and then we would deal with the repercussions of my brothers in these crazy phases of their life on top of like, just my mom not being able to emotionally be there. Have you ever left a doctor's appointment with results in hand, but still no real understanding of what they actually mean? Or what are you supposed to do next? Or maybe you felt like something in your body was off, but the answers kept coming back as fine. That loop of uncertainty is exhausting. Hers understands. As women, we're often told to listen to our bodies, but too often we're left without the information to actually understand them. And when reassurance alone isn't enough, Knowing what's really going on inside your body matters. HERS is rethinking the outdated healthcare system to finally give women what they deserve. Care that's convenient, supportive, built around real needs, and backed by experts in women's health. This is about clarity, not guesswork. 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Not everybody does, but I did. We live far away from any of the other communities. Like I said, my dad tried to start one, didn't happen. And so I went to the public school that was just 10 minutes away from me. And I'm grateful for that in ways because I feel like at first it was hard because in elementary school, it's fun. Middle school, kids get mean. And I grew up in a small town. So everybody knows everything about everybody. and I would get made fun of for being a polygamist. And I didn't really feel like I had anywhere to turn to because anytime I would come to my parents, they wouldn't hear me. And so that was a tough time in my life. But then high school got better and I was on the soccer team and I loved it. And that's kind of what kept me in school because I was not like, I did not love school. I didn't love to do homework or learn or do any of those things but I loved sports and I loved making friends it's probably a good outlet for you yeah for sure do you think going to a regular school because I know some of the I wasn't Mormon is the religions Mormon no kind of people get it's so confusing because so like the LDS church they don't really like being called Mormons anymore because I think like years and years ago, they used to practice polygamy. And then one day there was this thing called the Mormon Manifesto. And the president of the church, Wilford Woodruff, was like, we're no longer practicing polygamy. So they haven't done that for a very long time. But then when that happened, there were tons of breakoffs of different polygamist religions. And the one that I grew up in, the AUB, is just one of those many breakoffs. Understood. The FLDS, Warren Jeffs, one of the many breakoffs. And they all believe just slightly different things. And some of them are just a lot more crazy than the others. A lot of the ones that have their own like compounds, if you will, it seems like they funnel in specific education. So a lot of kids aren't even exposed to what could be happening in their lives. Like they think this is so normal. So I wonder if, like you were saying, but I knew this was wrong. I knew I didn't like this. I also wonder if that's because you went to a public school and maybe got a little exposure to what was really happening. Yeah. Well, I'm like just an observer. I feel like I learned from observing other people. And I would notice my friends' lives and their families and be like, this is kind of weird. Yeah. Like, it's different. And like I would go and hang out at my best friend's house for months and my parents wouldn't even like ask where I was. And I'm like, this is kind of weird. Like my friends' parents are always like calling them and texting them like all the time. Right. My parents don't even care where I am. So that's interesting because I always felt like in those religions it was, and maybe this is just my ignorance, like it was a little more cult-like where like they wanted to keep eyes on you guys more. because no one wanted to be exposed, right? I really think that it depends on the family that you're in. I really think my mom was just so checked out with so many kids. And my dad was just doing whatever the crap he was doing. And I was just doing whatever I was doing. But do you maybe in hindsight appreciate that, that you had a little more freedom? Because maybe you didn't have to go through, because you're part of the youngest. Yes. Right. Out of the 12 because my dad had 46 kids give or take Merry Christmas Merry Christmas to us no like sometimes we didn't even know if we'd get Christmas that's crazy yeah I think I was like number 38 I'm like one of the youngest of them because I was two in my family split up my mom was pregnant with my brother just below me and then my mom stayed with my dad and had a few more kids with them. So yeah. A lot of kids. Yeah. Are you close with all your 12 siblings? No, it's like hard. Yeah. I'm close with a few of them, probably about half, but I think it's hard because some of them are still in that religion. And I don't, I don't care if you're like, I know so many people that still live that way and they're like really good people and they're just trying their best and they truly believe that they're doing what is right. But sometimes it does cause that divide like if you choose to leave then people are kind of like well you're a bad example I don't really want to hang around you no I get but a good portion of my mom's kids have left and your mom is still she's stayed in the religion so she just recently left wow like within this last year wow so she like started going to therapy and that's also major I know because growing up like therapy, mental health, all of that was so stigmatized. You just sweep it under the rug. I think that my mom probably dealt with postpartum depression, mental health issues, and she never even knew that she did. Right. Because you don't talk about it and you just pretend like you're okay. Your mother leaving, has that made you want to have a stronger relationship with her? I think I've always had that want kind of because she's my mom and like I long for that mother bond that I've never really had since I was like little little. I see growth happening with her and like she's leaving my dad. He's abusive and very toxic and she's finally leaving him and she's been going to therapy and that's been helping her. She did recently realize like oh I have like I was groomed and I never really did get to have a voice or find out who I was before I had a million kids and I once again I have so much grace and compassion with her but she still has a lot more to go oh this is so heartbreaking that's actually really no I it's hard but I'm like so thankful for my kids because even though I don't have a close relationship with my mom. At least I get to be the mom that I always wish that I had and not saying that I'm a perfect mom, but I do think that I do a really good job. And I just spend so much time with my kids making sure that they feel heard and seen and loved. And I just feel like that's something that I never got as a kid. Speaking of that, what was your emotional support as a kid? Like who would you turn to if you needed what the normal parental would do for you. I feel like sometimes I would turn to friends when your friends are so young too. It's kind of like, yeah, they don't realize the depth of maybe what you're going through. And then also like siblings, but then like, they're going through their own shit, you know? And I have my mom's oldest daughter, Camilla. I to this day call her mama cam because I would go to her for a lot of stuff. Kind of having some type of mother figure because she would like, let me sleep over there whenever I needed and vent to her if I needed to or buy me underwear if I needed it. For your dad, was he prominent in your life or was he sort of just doing his own thing and it was more the mom's? He was kind of back and forth because he ended up getting a job that was two hours up north away from us. So he'd be gone all week and then come home on the weekends. And sometimes we'd see him, like we'd go and visit him, but he didn't parent us at all. It was more of like the religious stuff. Like, I want you to do this. I expect you to be like this, but it was never like parenting, I guess. It's so interesting that even if your dad was gone so much that your mom still felt like such a need to stay. I know. And that's what's like so hard. When you are born and raised into something, you're brainwashed into believing that this is the way. And there's a lot of fear, right? If you don't live this way, you won't be with your loved ones when you die. And you won't have that eternal family. And you won't get to be with your kids and your husband when you die that's scary yeah that's a terrifying feeling and that's why I almost lived that way because I was like so scared yeah about not being able to be with my loved ones when I die how did you meet your husband he grew up in the same polygamous religion he did so when I was 16 my 14 year old brother took his life I'm so sorry and yeah that was so crazy and such a hard time in my life and my husband Paul 12 days after my brother took his life my husband Paul's brother died in a tragic construction accident oh my gosh and so Paul and I like knew each other because we grew up in the same religion but after we lost our brother so close to each other right we like started reaching out to each other, started confiding in each other. And we were both close to our brothers. So it was just nice to be able to talk to someone who understood it, even though they died in different ways, they were both very tragic. So when Paul and I met each other, we were going to church together. We were going to live polygamy. We would talk about getting sister wives. And it always made me feel a little like, I don't want to share you. I don't want to share you. When I started like feeling love for him, I was like, I have to share you with other women like this sucks. Right. But we were just going to do it because of the pressure. And I think that we wanted to leave for a while after having my daughter that gave us the like strength to be like, I'm not going to let this control me anymore and hover over me anymore. I need to do this for my daughter. She deserves a better life. And sometimes it just takes something like that to help you make the step that you need in life. So you guys got married, had your baby, and then together were just honest and brave enough to say, I want to leave this religion. Yeah. And is that something you do like in the darkness of night? Or do you leave like you're honest with everyone? or do you sort of have to run away for paul and i specifically we didn't have to escape or like we weren't shut out by our families because we chose not to live that way like they're still in our lives just this slow gradual process of like not going anymore and then they're like why aren't you going to church anymore what are you doing and then we finally had to be like honest about it but that was hard for me it was like i'm not super close with my parents so kind of like whatever I'm gonna do my thing it almost made it easier but for Paul like he didn't want to disappoint his loved ones too and so it was like this process of I think that's the hardest thing about like sometimes when you make decisions for yourself it might disappoint people that you love and care about but that doesn't mean that it's the wrong decision no it doesn't and you're so strong for breaking that generational cycle and for doing that and doing it for your children. I mean, the way they're going to feel when they're older and you get to tell them your story. Is your story going to be something that you're going to be just very honest about with your kids? Yeah. I'm just an honest person. I feel like that causes more issues with your relationships with your children than anything if you're not honest with them. And I think that honesty comes at different levels on their age. Yes. Like my oldest is seven. She doesn't even understand the life that I grew up in. And it hasn't even clicked to her how crazy it is because. Well, they don't know. Well, and also like anytime we are around family that still lives that way, the husband isn't ever present. Right. Like they just see their aunties or whatever. And so she doesn't realize he's married to five women, six women. But with my brother taking his life she's already asked questions about that and I'm like how do you tell a seven-year-old yeah what do you say in that situation so because did she meet him so right she never met him because I was 16 when he passed so my brother was 14 I was 16 and then I had her I was pregnant with her at 19 had her at 20 years old and so I was a baby having a baby and it's crazy because I feel like my kids have just been growing up with me and my husband has just been we're just like growing up together maybe he comes to her yeah oh he has that's the craziest thing okay i believe in all that so no i'm telling you he has because one time i because i'll like post about my brother and try and like spread mental health awareness and suicide awareness because it's not talked about enough especially in children my brother was a child right and I had this post that I was posting and she was three years old and she was like oh mom I was playing with him outside oh and I was like are you sure like I thought maybe she's confusing him with my other brother that's six years younger than me okay but my brother the past was only two years younger than me and I was like oh you mean like uncle Caleb and I like show her a picture of him she's like no it was him and she was like we were playing catch outside and he kept sticking his tongue out at me like this and that is what like rung true to me because that's what my brother Ammon would do all the time and he has so many selfies of him sticking his tongue out like that so the second she told me that I had chills through my body I was like okay I believe you what the heck oh I believe that and you know spirits and angels they come to children because they're the most innocent and like their guard is down and I think sometimes adults get freaked out but I believe that you have to hold on to that story forever oh I know I have to it was so special and it's crazy because like I still will feel my brother sometimes but I actually haven felt him in a while but when I was at the airport I like felt him oh I like got these chills and I was like he with me he is with you and the more you talk to him and all that he show up for you and all of that yeah do you think your religion had anything to do with him having such mental health I don't know I've I've been asked that before and it's hard to say because he never specifically told me that but he did he would tell me like I don't feel like this is right like do you really want to have like multiple sister wives like he would ask me that and I'd be like I don't know right so he would question it like a lot and be like this just doesn't feel right I don't think that this is right I don't want to live that way and I don't think that that was necessarily why but I do think that we grew up with a lot of oh my the trauma goes so deep it's like that's just like a whole so much so much story to tell so I'm sure that there was so much going on his life that even I didn't know about because him and I were close and when he took his life I seriously was so clueless I was like what like how did this even happen but when something like that happens who do you go to because that is beyond the word trauma seems so empty for something like that. Like I could never, I couldn't imagine that happening in my life. And then I couldn't imagine that. And then not having a mom or a dad to turn to and be consoled and loved through that time. Like, what do you, what do you do? Who do you go to? I think I just, I clung to my siblings, my husband and TikTok. Yeah, no, but it's like. Sharing my story on TikTok, finding other people that have been through it too, you know? through other situations and also like I just feel like losing him was probably if not the most painful thing I've ever gone through in my life and after he passed I truly believed that it was my fault and that's something that can be super common when you lose someone to suicide is believing that it's your fault and that really messed with me for a while. May I ask why you think that or why you thought that? I think that I just was like I should have known like I should have saw the signs I should have known and I should have stopped this from happening and also this weird thing happened that I like will always remember for some reason but like a month before he had passed we were me him and my dad were driving in the car and I had this like super like strong thought in my brain like Ammon's gonna kill himself and I was like ew like I like pushed it out of my head because I was like that is a gross thought like why would I think that And we grew up like dreams, thoughts that we have, like all of those have meaning to them and they carry a lot of meaning. And so then I feel like I really took that to heart and was like, this was God trying to tell me and I didn't listen and now he's gone. and I was 16 like I did not realize even how young I was when I was going through such a loss in my life but I was able to work through it and I you know I was pretty suicidal and my husband when I was dating him he one night when we were together just randomly decided to tell me how much I meant to him how much my life meant and how I brighten people's lives around me and something with what he said clicked to me and I was like you know like I do matter people do care about me and I do need to hang on and I think that people forget how much little things like that really do matter like reaching out to people when they're struggling doing acts of kindness when someone is struggling and that's something that's helped me with the grief of losing my brother is doing acts of kindness for people and I'll do like his blue was his favorite color and so I'll do random acts of blue and I'll just give them to strangers or I'll give them to someone that I know is struggling and things like that help me feel close to him and like he's with me. Well you'll always keep his memory alive when you do anything in thought of him. I would think if I, because I have trust issues, having, I'm just wondering, like, do you, like, do you question, like, is your husband, like, I would be like, am I enough? Because you, all these men saw, were like, I need to have five wives. I need to have seven wives, whatever it is, would you yourself question like, is this like entertaining enough? Is this fulfilling enough? Just I totally see where you're coming from. I think something that helped me not ever feel that way with him was even when we were dating, I think the reason why I felt comfort and even staying with him was because like part of me didn't really want to live that way. But I didn't really know, like maybe didn't have the strength to just be like, I don't want to live this way now where do I go who's gonna want me you know but he we had a conversation and he was like I don't know how I feel about the plural marriage like I don't know if I want multiple wives and we both were just like well we kind of have to like this is what we have to do so sad and so we would have those conversations and looking back I'm like we were so young to be having those conversations but I think him being on the same page as me and him vocalizing that to me before I vocalized it to him I was like okay this like made me have some trust in him because I was like okay you're not just wanting to get like a million wives you're just wanting to get them because we have to right not because you like want all these wives so I think that that helped for sure I think it's so special that you guys came from similar upbringings because I think you guys can relate and obviously you guys have your trauma bonding from all the stuff you've been through but you guys are on such parallel journeys. I think it's so much easier to get out together and how you said you and your husband are growing together. I mean, that's really what marriage is. You're going to have your ups and your downs, but as long as you both don't stay stagnant, like you guys want to be. We change together. Yes. Because we're all going to change, especially being so young. We are completely different people than we were when we first got married. It's like jump scare. Yeah. It's truly a jump scare. The beauty is it's together. you have three kids what what kids do you have boys girls i have a daughter brooklyn and then a son cashton and then another son chapman and they're all like three years apart so cute yeah i have a seven-year-old daughter and a three-year-old son so like the same best it's the best do you want to have more kids i would only have one more if i were to have more kids because i just want to be able to mentally financially all the things be able to be there for my kids. So I don't know. Like my, my daughter's like, I need a sister. And I'm like, I can't guarantee that. And I'm sorry. And it's like, I know what it was like to grow up with having sisters and I have sisters that I am close to. And so I'm like, I'm sorry that you might not get that. But she has cousins, right? I have four sisters and one brother. And I wish I could give my daughter true a sister because I love my relationship yeah I love it relationship is it's so special so special like it's the best but I'm also I don't know if I have the bandwidth for a third and I'm also not married and I want to be married to have more kids but yeah so I don't know but we have cousins and they're close like sisters that's how I feel she has a cousin that she's so close to and they see each other every week and they're the same age and I'm like, you have her. Yeah, we have to tell ourselves that's enough. When you had kids, do you think it gave, I know it gave you strength to leave your religion, but do you think it gave you understanding or more compassion for your mother? I think at first I was just very angry at her, honestly, if I'm being real. I had my kids and I was like, what the hell? Do you even love me sometimes I still question it I'm like I know what a mother's love feels like and so it's hard for me to see it any other way it's just like you love your kid this is what you do have you ever had these conversations with her she can't handle it so I think going to therapy this is like something my mom has always done and I think she's becoming aware that she does it and now she's learning how to not do it. But anytime, anytime when we were kids, we would tell her the most bizarre thing that happened to us. And she'd be like, oh, and not say a word. That was it. Zone it out. Block it out. Not talk about it. Never bring it up again. And she just shuts down. Completely shuts down when she's uncomfortable. And I honestly think that's part of what has made us not have the greatest relationship because I'm such an honest, upfront person. And I will tell you how it is. I'll tell you in a nice way. Maybe when I was younger, I wasn't nice. But as I've grown up and matured a little bit, I'll tell you in a nice way, but I'm going to be real with you. And I just don't think that she has been able to handle that. But I do see her getting there. Maybe if she continues to go to therapy and she has started to become aware that she shuts down I just think that it is going to be the longest process and maybe like we would have to go to therapy together honestly that might be smart I don't know if she could handle it right away that's what I'm saying I don't think she's oh I don't think she's there yet I mean it sounds or maybe never will be and I don't know and I have that expectation that it just might not ever happen I think we have to realize how hard it is to change ourselves yeah and how much effort and work it takes to change something about ourselves. And you normally only change it if you find there to be a problem with it. If other people say it, you're like, whatever, that's your problem. You almost become defensive or like, whatever. I'm going to be me. I'm going to be more like that because you're telling me not to be. Yeah. So I think I just have to not have expectations because that is what causes the hurt. I used to have expectations and I would be hurt all the time. So now it's just like, if she ends up healing more going to therapy more and she wants to have those conversations I'm so ready yeah it's so weird because like she hasn't really been there in my life my kids barely know who she is and recently because she's been going to therapy like they've seen her a couple of times this last year and it was so sad because they're like who is that I'm like it's your grandma yes that's my mom yeah and I think she's kind of expressed that maybe she wants to be more in our lives that's but it's like and I I think it is sweet I just think that it's very complex right and it's not like I don't know well I also like have that mother in me that's like are you gonna stay are you gonna continue to grow because like I can't have close relationships I my kids can't have close relationships with people like that you know. Well I was going to say when you see her does she activate or trigger something in you that I'm imagining she reminds you of a lot of dark times in your life. Yeah for sure. So maybe it's healthier for you that sadly she's not. And I think it's just like I don't feel that like mother bond with her because I haven't for a long time. So when I am with her it just feels weird. Right. It doesn't. I can see that. Because like I know what it feels like when I'm with my kids and how my kids feel when they're with me. And I just don't feel like that's there's like some sort of like disconnect, I guess. I honestly feel like your mom, especially with how you're saying if you told her something crazy and she just like ignores it. Yeah. It sounds like your mom had probably a really fucked up childhood. Yeah. And she was probably, for lack of a better word, like trained or conditioned. You can't have an opinion. You can't have a voice. And I don't want you to really even comment on anything that you're seeing. And then she married a man that continued to treat her that way. So sad. I know. I truly have so much compassion for her. I really do. No, and I love you for that too. But I also have so much respect for you that you're taking care of you, yes, but it's mainly for your kids. It just shows that I love them. That's what I'm saying. I'm like, isn't this just what moms do? But if she never felt that or had that herself, she doesn't know that's what moms do. do. I know, but that's what's so crazy. I didn't have that either. You're right. And that's the tug and pull. Do you have any communication with your dad? No. None. For how long? I think the last time I talked to him was a year or so ago, but no, I do not have a relationship with him, nor do I care to honestly. Like he was abusive in every way to his kids, to his wife, and he fought in Vietnam and got terrible PTSD from it but he wanted to do it like that's that's what's actually crazy and maybe I just talk about this I guess but one of the last times I talked to him he I asked him like I had read this book about Vietnam and I was like wow I didn't realize the stuff that you went through and I'm trying to like you know I was trying to have compassion for him even though he's just not a good person and I was you know trying to talk with him about it and just like see his perspective of it. And it just left me feeling more icky. I was like, oh, okay. I really don't want a relationship with you. I read a book. It was called The Women. And I told him, I'm like, yeah, I read this book called The Women. And he's like, you want to know how many women I was with in Nam? You want to know if you have Nam siblings? I'm like, so are you telling me I have Nam siblings? Right. That's how he tells you things? Yeah, I have 45 siblings. Maybe. Maybe. How many more could you have? I don't know. he's a very fertile man yeah yeah yeah that's crazy and he just i don't know the whole conversation i felt so icky and i realized i don't have any more i don't feel compassion for you you're just not a good person well he doesn't seem like he has compassion for you either no like how he's telling you these things he's just like yeah here no so i get why you wouldn't yeah whereas with my mom, it's like, I don't think she's, I don't think she's a terrible person. I don't, I think that she just like like we talked about all the things of the way that she grew up and things like that Whereas with him I like you just a bad person Yeah And that just is what it is Yeah Did you get to have traditions as a kid Like did you guys celebrate holidays or Yeah, we did. So there was still that like family aspect. Yeah. Okay. I think that was honestly, like probably my best times as a childhood was the holidays because a lot of times some of my siblings would come and visit and I'd always be so happy if I got to see my siblings. That in itself was magical. It was like already like, oh, this is special because I get to be with my other siblings. Right. And I don't know, there's just something magical about holidays. There is, yes. Yeah, we did celebrate Christmas and Easter, but I mean, we were never taught about the Easter bunny or anything. It was just like, we're going to go hide eggs and whatever. social media is sort of therapy for you yeah do you get any heat for talking about the church i mean yeah i've gotten a little bit of heat for it i think the main thing is is i think it's just so uncomfortable for people because growing up we were told that you don't talk about this got it and when my siblings would come to my school like sometimes a sibling would come live with us for a little bit if they were having issues or whatever or my friends would come over and I had siblings over it was always these are my cousins we had to call our siblings our cousins and kind of be hush hush about it why is that just because I think because it wasn't because it's not like legal got it so I think that was part of it it was because it wasn't legal and because of like the hate that would come with it too I think I know that they don't want you to like it's not like me talking about it definitely makes people uncomfortable but at the same it makes that community uncomfortable yeah for sure and then wouldn't you think it helps and who knows maybe there's someone that was in your position that gets to hear your voice and hear your story and maybe you give them the strength and the hope to know like wow okay this isn't normal that's all i could hope for because like is although it can be hard sometimes because it's like when people are like bugged about me talking about it at the same time I'm like I know that there are people living that way that don't want to and they don't know how to get out yeah because even though you don't have to escape like maybe physically mentally the escape is insane the brainwashing and the toll that it takes on you to leave something like that it messes with you and it messed with me for a while even after I left like even what you said about feeling like you're not going to go to heaven with your or is that what you consider it yeah heaven with your family and your siblings and your kids like that alone would make anyone sit still in fear I used to like I realized that I started struggling with some like religious OCD and I never realized until I had kids that I like struggled with it but I literally after we left I would pray every night for God to not take my daughter from me I literally thought she was going to die because we didn't we chose to not live that way she didn't get a special baby blessing that they do all these things and I didn't even realize that it was like messing with me and when I realized that I was like whoa this is crazy like I should not be having to pray every night for my daughter to not die. Like that is taxing. Yeah. To say the least. As a mother, you're like, no. Oh my gosh, that's horrible. I'm sure you get it. You're like, no. Oh no. When I have dark thoughts, I'm like, cancel, cancel, and this isn't happening. Yeah. What do you want people to take away from this? I think if I could use my voice in any way for good, it's that there is nothing more powerful than being authentic to who you are, even if it makes other people uncomfortable, even if it makes you uncomfortable at first because you're a people pleaser, even if people don't want to be in your life anymore because you're being authentic to who you are. For me, that was leaving a very high demand religion where it disappointed a lot of people when I chose to leave and it hurt them. But in the end, it was the best thing that I could have done for me and for my family. And I just hope through sharing my story that if anybody's going through anything in life, whether it's leaving a high demand religion or a cult or, and maybe they need the strength to leave that this gives them hope that like it gets better and you will find your community and your people that love you and even if you're living a toxic marriage or a toxic relationship that it's worth it to leave get up get the fuck out and leave because you deserve to live the life that you want to live. And I truly believe that authenticity and mental health are so deeply connected. And I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about that. But if you're not being authentic to who you are, you're not going to be happy. And that is going to put a toll on you mentally. And also in that, from losing my brother, who was 14, to suicide, we need to be having these conversations with our children. Our children need to know that they are loved the way that they are, that they can be authentically themselves. And they also need to know that they can come to you if they're struggling and that it's okay to not be okay. And I think that honestly, that's the leading cause of suicide is not talking about it. And the biggest reason why there's a stigma to mental health is not talking about it. Because everybody has struggles in their life and if our children know that anytime they are having a struggle oh I'm having a struggle but it's okay and it will get better and I can tell my mom and dad I can tell people that I trust that I'm struggling and I don't have to keep this bottled up inside and I just think that I don't know authenticity mental health come hand in hand and I don't know you need to live your life the way that you want to. And if that's leaving a high demand religion, if that's leaving a toxic relationship, do it. It's hard at first, but then it's easier. It's harder to stay. Yeah. Honestly. You're so right. And it's so beautifully said. And I think that could happen at any age. Like your mom just left the church herself. I'm sure it was terrifying for her. Yeah. And you're never too old. It's never too late to start over. Exactly. Very good point. And get the life you want. yeah even if it's a little bit because that little bit might be the best time of your life and better than it will still be worth it it will be it's never too late do you have any faith now like do you have a different faith or any faith I think that I'm still maybe on my journey like I wouldn't say that I'm like religious like I'm not tied to a certain religion but I am very spiritual and I also just believe in being a good person and doing good. And I think that, like, I still struggle a little bit with religion at all in general because of where I came from. So I just really cling to being a good person and teaching my kids to be good people. And I think that's matters more than anything, honestly. For someone in polygamy, I would think a lot of that has its own identity in a way. Because you were young and you left the church, do you think you had to get rid of the identity of polygamy? Because growing up in a small town, I imagine a lot of people knew that you came from a polygamous family. Did that bother you that that was an identity that followed you places? Oh, yeah. I hated it. Which is so funny because now I talk about it and I have no shame about it. And maybe that's why I talk about it and don't have shame about it because my mindset has shifted. I used to be so embarrassed that I came from a polygamous family and I hated that people would say stuff. And now I'm like, yeah, I grew up in a polygamous family. So what? I didn't choose that. And you know what? It's a good story to tell. Do you ever get scared that you left the church? I think I used to. What do you mean by scared? I don't know. And I don't know what's really real or fiction, like from what people say, but you hear like, oh, it's dangerous to leave. Yeah, you just hear stories. I think because FLDS, I do think it's more dangerous to leave FLDS. And that's the Warren Jeffs. Got it. Keep sweet, pray and obey. Even though we didn't grow up in that specific polygamy, I was always taught to just keep sweet, pray and obey. Do what you're told. Crazy. But I always had that little bit of fire in me, you know? Yeah, thank God. what do you feel you're the most proud of of accomplishing in your life at this moment? I don't know. I guess maybe it sounds dumb because we're already talking about this, but just like being the mom that I am to my babies. Yeah. Like it'll get me emotional every time. No, you're such a good mom. Because, yeah, sorry. No, don't be sorry. You're such a good mom. You really are. I try my best. And you know, anytime that I do something wrong, I'm always like, whether I yell at them I lose my temper I'm like that is not your fault I was having a hard time with my emotions and that's not on you that's on me and even like just little things like that that I was never told as a kid like that I don't have to carry other people's emotions and that that's on them if they lose their shit or they have their issues it's not on you to carry and I feel like I always had to carry so much as a kid and always walking on eggshells. And I am just thankful that despite everything that I've been through and not having a good parent role to look at, I have been able to just be a mom that I always dreamed of. And I just, I love being a mom. And that's probably the most, the thing that I'm most passionate about is motherhood and giving my kids the best life that they can ever have. Well, I think it's really, really beautiful that exactly what you said, you didn't have a good role model to look towards, but you do a really damn good job, it seems. And even things like that, the way that you're able to communicate with your kids, like if you know, I've done that to mine, I've like snapped. I'm like, I'm so sorry. And I'll explain. And then my kids are like, okay. I think that goes a long ways though, because I don't believe that our kids need perfect parents. I didn't need perfect parents. I just needed the repair, the repair of this shouldn't have happened. And I'm sorry, the conversations, conversations with your kids and helping them understand things, I just think goes a very, very long ways. And I hope that it does for my kids. I can hope that, you know, and I'm sure that they'll have their issues, whatever, when they get older, but I just hope that they just never have to question my love for them. No, I don't. I don't think they could. I really don't. Last question. How do you think you maintain so much grace and forgiveness for the ones that maybe weren't so great to you? I don't know. At first, I didn't know if I could. I feel like in a way it's like a grief. And the older I got, the more of the grief of it that I felt the realization of what the love that I lacked and the parent bonds that I lacked and all those things I don't know I guess I just do not want to live my life bitter and maybe that's what it is yeah I came to a realization one day maybe maybe it was slowly that I don't want to live a bitter life and bad things happen all the time. And at the end of the day, we get to choose, is this going to destroy me or is this going to make me a better person? Is this going to make me into who I want to be? I think you're so self-aware and so aware like, yes, I wish my mom did certain things, but you also understand how she was raised and it's a domino effect that way. and even your dad you're like no I don't want the relationship but that's you're not trashing anyone you're like yeah no it's just and that's the thing about me like I'll be honest yeah yeah I'll be I'll be honest but I try to be you know respectful about it you are and so if anyone has something to say I think that's their own and I mean I guess like you saying like I share my story to help people and that's exactly it is I I learned after losing my brother that your story matters your story is your life and it matters and you get to choose to keep on going you get to choose how to write your story and sometimes things will pop up in your story that are harder that you didn't choose but at the end of the day you still get to choose your story because you get to choose if you are going to grow from it or let it destroy you. And it's your story. You get to choose your story. 100%. Well, I'm so proud of you. I don't want that to sound condescending. I really, really am. No, it doesn't. Thank you. I appreciate that. Because I can't imagine how much personal work it's taken. And you just seem still so full of light. And what a beautiful thing that no one else can take that from you. Thank you. Yeah. thank you for coming here thank you for having me