523 - I'm the Loudest, You're the Smartest

This is exactly right. Hester-Prince Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to the new season of Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Danielle Robay, host of Bookmarked, the podcast by Reese's Book Club. And this week, we are talking about a monster. Or maybe the woman who refused to be one. I'm sitting down with Maggie Gyllenhaal to unpack her new film, The Bride. And trust me, this isn't your grandmother's bride of Frankenstein. What I was more interested in was the monstrousness inside of each of us. You can spend your life running from those things, or you can turn around and shake hands with them. Listen to Bookmarked, the Reese's Book Club podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello. If you're the kind of person who wishes you could listen to podcasts and watch Netflix at the same time, we have got big news for you. You can now watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix. That's right. It's the same podcast, same conversations, same everything you already love, now on video and on Netflix, just like Bridgerton. So if you're scrolling for something to watch, you can now watch us on Netflix. Search My Favorite Murder for new weekly episodes. And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me buttons, because that's the best way you can support our show. Goodbye. 10-10 shots fired in City Hall building. How could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that. A shocking public murder. This is one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics. I screamed, get down, get down. Those are shots. A tragedy that's now forgotten and a mystery. That may or may not have been political. That may have been about sex. Listen to Rorschach, Murder at City Hall, starting on March 25th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My favorite murder Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hartstark. That's Karen Kilgarra. And it's St. Patrick's Day, everybody. Welcome to our St. Patrick's Day party. I noticed that whoever got these balloons, very Protestant-based. The orange represents Northern Ireland. I just want to say right now, there'd be a lot more green in here if I was the one. There was a green shamrock balloon situation. They didn't float. I'm sorry. Oh, is that true? Yeah. We had a balloon fiasco earlier. Oh, no. Did I just uncover it through politics? I'm highly political. Send us your hate email. at MyFavoriteMurder at Gmail. What side are you on of the Irish Civil War? Let us know. Let us know. Should we just get right into the network stuff? Let's do it. All right. So we have a podcast network, and here's some highlights and stuff that's going on there. This week on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul head to Long Island in 1955 to kick off part one of the shooting of the century. Some of America's wealthiest socialites gather for a glamorous party, but before morning arrives, a murder is committed. Also, the final episodes of our two newest series, Two-Face, John of God, dropped last week. You can binge the entire story in both English and Spanish. We expect you to listen to both. And on I Said No Gifts, Bridget graciously looks the other way when Stephanie Courtney from the Goldbergs Mad Men barges in with a gift, and then the two get into CD changers, evil crystals, and Claire Danes' stress level. Here's a fun fact. Stephanie Courtney is Flo from Progressive. Oh, amazing. And if you're preparing for the Oscars this Sunday, Dear Movies I Love You is here to help. Millie and Casey are breaking down the predictions, snubs, and the most baffling nominations from this year so you can walk into your Oscar pool feeling extremely confident. Plus, the hilarious Paul Rust joins them talking about his area of expertise, which is John Hughes movies. And in the merch corner, a limited number of MFM collegiate unisex crewnecks are available. I had mine on this morning. It's so cozy and comfy. Karen's holding it up now. It's like you didn't have to go to college, it turns out. All I have to do is buy this sweater. Grab yours while they last at exactlyrightstore.com. And that's what's going on in our network, Exactly Right Media. Hi, it's Alec Baldwin. this season on my podcast, here's the thing I'm speaking with more artists, policymakers, and performers, like composer Mark Shaman. Once you've established that you have the talent, it's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with. You know, Rob and I was always a great hang. We would sit in kibitz for hours and then eventually get around to the music. That's what I mostly think of when I think of him, the time together laughing. Lawyer Robbie Kaplan. The great gift of being a lawyer is the ability to actually change things in our society in a way that very few people can. I mean, you can really make a difference to causes in the United States if you bring the right case at the right time in the end. Marriage equality. Yeah, Windsor's the perfect example. And journalist Chris Whipple. Every White House staffer, they work in a bubble called the West Wing, and it's exponentially more so in the Trump White House. Listen to the new season of Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Danielle Robay, host of Bookmarked, the podcast by Reese's Book Club. And this week on Bookmarked, we're basically hosting the ultimate girls' night. Reese Witherspoon, Jennifer Garner, Judy Greer, Rita Wilson, and Gary Rice, and author Laura Dave. These are the women behind season two of the Apple TV series The Last Thing He Told Me. We're talking about turning a book into a hit show and what it really takes to bring a story to life. The most important metric for me is do I want to share this book with somebody? That's what creates community. And that's the main thesis of our book club and why we started it was just to connect people together. Listen to The Bookmarked by Risa's Book Club podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello. If you're the kind of person who wishes you could listen to podcasts and watch Netflix at the same time, we have got big news for you. You can now watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix. That's right. It's the same podcast, same conversations, same everything you already love, now on video and on Netflix just like Bridgerton. So if you're scrolling for something to watch, you can now watch us on Netflix. Search My Favorite Murder for new weekly episodes. And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me buttons because that's the best way you can support our show. Goodbye. Goodbye. Bye. Carrying concealed weapons. And in less than 30 minutes, both of them will be dead. Everybody in the chambers ducked. A shocking public murder. I scream, get down, get down. Those are shots. Those are shots. Get down. A charismatic politician. You know, he just bent the rules all the time. I still have a weapon. And I could shoot you. And an outsider with a secret. He alleged he was a victim of blackmail. That may or may not have been political. That may have been about sex. Listen to Rorschach, Murder at City Hall, starting on March 25th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And I go first today. So, Maren, I believe, suggested this after reading a book, and the book is Bad Bridget, Crime, Mayhem, and the Lives of Irish Immigrant Women by Drs. Elaine Farrell and Leanne McCormick. How fitting. So, of course, as we are heading into St. Patrick's Day, we do love to celebrate the holidays here on My Favorite Murder. It's what we do. But I'm going to zoom in on a very specific corner of the Irish diaspora, which is Irish girls and women who emigrated to North America in the late 1800s and the early 1900s. We remember them as tireless, resilient, selfless women who worked their fingers to the bone to build a better life for their families. It's very true, being very related to some Irish women of this era were distinct. They were diverse. They were complex. And regardless of whether history remembers them individually as saints or sinners, their stories are always filled with an incredible amount of humanity and, of course, humor. So here's a few of the cases unearthed by the Irish historians Elaine Farrell and Leanne McCormick for their book, Bad Bridgets. There's also a deep dive podcast that they made called Bad Bridget. So if you want to hear more of these stories, because they've got a bunch of them, because it's basically like the crime records of the day. So you can go and listen to that. So these women basically are referred to as Bad Bridgets because Bridget is a very common Irish name at the time. And in the 19th century, Bridget was a catch-all kind of shitty nickname for Irish women in general because there were so many domestic workers who had emigrated to America. So the Bridgets were everywhere. So this is roughly between the years of 1850 and the early 1900s where Irish immigrants have arrived at ports in these cities around the country in huge numbers. They are mostly poor. They're mostly Catholic, not Protestant. I said I was sorry. And they're deeply unwelcome by the white Protestant establishment. So the people that came over in the Mayflower, those are the Protestants. The Catholics were the ones that were being persecuted in many places. So that's why some Catholics came over. Many people, though, were starving from the Irish potato famine, which was, in fact, the British government withholding food from the Irish. We're just getting everything real clear here on St. Patrick's Day. Got it. So when these immigrants arrived, there were signs in shop windows that said no Irish need apply. There was a lot of what now seems kind of like really Irish racism, but it was part of the across the board racism that I think every immigrant probably dealt with coming into America at the time. So Irish immigrants are shut out of decent paying work. They're packed into tenements. They're over surveilled. They're over policed. And that means they're disproportionately represented in the prison systems. It sounds familiar because it is familiar. Early 1860s in New York City, Irish women account for four out of every five women in the jails or prisons that are there. Yeah. In turn of the century Boston, Irish women and girls make up nearly 40 percent of the prison population, despite the city's overall population being less than 20 percent Irish. And, of course, these numbers are used to justify ugly stereotypes that Irish women are inherently criminal or morally corrupt. But the second you dig into the actual stories behind these stats, of course, things are much more complex. So that brings us to our first Bridget that I'm going to be talking about, a woman named Bridget McCool. In 1804, she arrives in Massachusetts as a teenager. She finds work as a laundress and in a mill. Then she marries a guy named Thomas. But it's not a good relationship. He abandons her within two years and he leaves her penniless. And because she's a poor Irish Catholic woman, divorce is basically off the table. It's stigmatized by the church, like especially back then. It just never happened. But on top of that, it was expensive and it was time consuming. And yet a woman abandoned in like a major city who has no idea where her next meal is coming from needs a husband for a shot at financial stability. So Bridget gets remarried without first divorcing Thomas. So she's a bigamist. When Thomas catches wind of Bridget's illegal second marriage, he reports her to the police. Dude, just go away. I mean, how do you prove better that you should have been divorced than to be that kind of guy? Hey, I left her. Now she's remarried. I'm a douche and a narc. What a combination. More so, he's remarried at this point. Come on. So he basically shoots himself in the foot because they both wind up being arrested because they're both adulterers and bigamists. Bridget spends two years in prison. But when she gets out, her personal life doesn't improve over the next couple decades. When she serves out her sentence, she tries to pick up the pieces of her life. she gets married a third time, again, still hasn't gotten that initial first divorce. So she gets sent back to a reformatory. And once she completes this sentence, and after her relationship with husband number three ends, she goes ahead and illegally marries a fourth time. Okay, good God. She's just doubling, tripling, quadrupling down. This one's actually a remarriage to her second husband, who financially supported her after Thomas, husband number one, left. But then once she's in this marriage, the twist is that Bridget McCool finds out that her current husband, so number two and number four, one guy, he's been lying this whole time about being a widower. A woman he'd married years earlier who he's no longer with but hadn't divorced is in fact still alive. This is really romantic because yesterday was mine and Vince's 10-year anniversary. It just feels like a great story for this time. To show you how it could be and how it is not. Yeah, that's exactly. I would imagine a lot less lying from our man Vince. Less lying, less prison time. He is no fucking narc. I'll tell you that right now. He's certainly no narc. No. That is very true. And you know what? He wouldn't call himself a widower unless he really was a widower. Thank you. You're welcome. Of course, this betrayal is what finally pushes Bridget to seek and obtain a legal divorce on the grounds of cruelty. And finally, that story like wraps up. But it's that kind of thing where it's like thinking about the immigrant experience. You are left, you are sent away from your family, often alone or with maybe one or two other people, trying to make it in a place like New York City, Boston, wherever. And one thing goes wrong. And then it all goes wrong. Totally. As much as I want to be like why did you keep doing that It like because you never know how fucking difficult life was and is for other people So I not going to Right And this idea that especially back then women it was like you could be a laundress and touch everybody shit stained sheets Right. Or you could be a sex worker. Like, but that's the worst thing morally that the man in the sky thinks. Right. OK. So even though Bridget McCool is technically a criminal in the eyes of the law, she's clearly not a bad woman. It basically just drives home this truth that the law punishes the people who are just trying to survive the worst, usually. And that's a common theme for sex workers from this era. And there were a lot of them at the turn of the 20th century. In New York City in 1870, for example, the New York Times reports that there are more than 10,000 sex workers at the time when the city's population is just under one million people. And that means this is the new how much in today's money. That means one sex worker for every 100 New Yorkers. As Dr. Verrill and Dr. McCormick point out in their book, the past Irish women and girls take into sex work is not monolithic. Some are vulnerable. Some have no connections or legal protections in the U.S. Some are exploited by bad men right after they arrive. I think I've told you the story, but my grandmother came here when she was 17 with her two sisters. They land in New York City. They go through Ellis Island. And then they're supposed to meet a sponsor. And the sponsor is the person that set them up with work, which is the reason they were able to come. And sometimes they come on a loan and the sponsor's like, I fronted you this money. Now you're going to go work here. It's not great. So they landed and this man meets them at the docks or whatever. And he's like, you know, my grandmother described it to my aunt who described it to me that he was just kind of some blowhard with like, you know, in white linen. And he drives them into a tenement house on the Lower East Side and walks them up and puts them into this, like, apartment that's one room, basically. And he's like, and I'll be here in the morning. You better be ready and da-da-da. And the door shuts and he leaves. And my grandmother, who's 17 years old at the time, turns to her older sister and her younger sister and goes, I don't know about you guys, but I'm getting out of here. And they had a postcard that they used to have in their house in Longford, Ireland. And a relative sent them a postcard of San Francisco. So my grandma said, let's go to San Francisco. The streets are really clean there. Oh, my God. And that's how, like, our family came to be. Was like. Across the fucking entire country. I'm 17. 17. New to this place. And, like, basically, like. Fuck this shit. This ain't me. What would have happened? I want to go somewhere else. Yeah. It's wild. It's so crazy. So that idea that like the amount of money and trust people were putting into the hands of like basic strangers to say, please take care of my teenager. Please take care of my family member. Once you get here, obviously a whole different story. So many enter sex work because it's preferable to low pay, taxing labor, long hours of domestic or laundry work. I mean, there's some people who just make that choice, but oftentimes people are forced into it. And of course, there's all the risks that come with that decision, which is, of course, disease, infection, unwanted pregnancies, male violence, and then incarceration. So this brings us to our second bad, Bridget, a woman named Marion Canning, who arrives in New York City in 1890 when she's 18 years old. She moves into a tenement on Mulberry Street, a notorious Five Points neighborhood of lower Manhattan. So my grandma's story would be 25, 30 years later. Oh, wow. Okay. But not crazy far away, which is the weird thing. Yeah, that is very weird. Marion's building has a reputation. At the time that she lives there, multiple stabbings and murders are reported inside. It's also thought that a brothel is operating out of it, which is probably how she came to live there. So fast forward a year after her arriving in the city. It's July 1891. Marion's heading to her home one evening when a firefighter named Richard Bronkbank approaches her outside, propositions her for sex. She brings him inside. And then later on, he ends up accusing her of stealing his watch and some of his money. Someone calls the police. We're not sure which one of the two of them. Richard claims he calls the police to report the theft. Marion says she called the police because she wanted a cop's help because she was being falsely accused. Either way, Richard's watch and cash are not found on Marion, but she's charged with theft and carted off to jail anyway. We'll never know if she was innocent or if she did rob Richard and hide his possessions somewhere in her apartment. What we know is that many sex workers of this era do pick through their clients' pockets, knowing that the stigma of them hiring a sex worker is going to keep them from being reported. But even if Marianne is innocent of this crime, which she very well might be, she's guilty by her association with sex work in the eyes of the people that they're reporting to, and she pays the price for it. She's sentenced to seven years in prison for this unproven theft. Fortunately, her parents in Ireland find out that she's in prison. They don't know why, though. And her father ends up writing a letter to a judge, the judge from Marianne's trial. and to the governor of New York, begging to have his daughter back and promising to write her course and asking for clemency for her. And it actually works. The governor's sympathetic and Marion, who's now 21, gets a pardon. And after less than a year of serving her sentence, she's freed from jail. Marion's father sends money for her trip back to Ireland. So she goes back home and gets married not long after. and as Leanne McCormick writes, quote, it's unlikely that anyone in her hometown ever knew the exact details of what had happened to her in New York. The disgrace attached to being in prison would have been enough to prevent a marriage taking place, never mind the additional shame of having been involved in sex work. Right. So she's incredibly lucky because she has the kind of family that's like, wait, we can take her back and we can do something with this. But most people were like leaving and the end. And she lived a quiet life after that. So both Bridget McCool and Marion Canning are punished and criminalized for trying to make their way in a foreign land without money, connections or protection. And there, of course, are countless stories like this. But not every bad Bridget fits this mold. The next Bridget I'm going to tell you about seems to commit crimes because she's really good at it, not because she's desperate. It sounds fun. Right? So we're back in New York City, 19th century. The police are doing something revolutionary for the time, which is they're photographing criminals and compiling their images into big books that are basically our early mugshot databases. This is really helpful because so many criminals take on aliases and basically it's easy to evade the law because they're just kind of like, no, it's me, Jerry. Totally. Seinfeld. You know. No way. That's Jerry Garcia. and you know it. I know it and you know it. We can't prove it. Oh, so of course, mugshots are like such scientific advancement because now suddenly they can, it's not based on memory. It's like, it's this guy right here. They assemble one book in 1886 that features 204 criminals at large in New York City. And one of those criminals is old Mother Hubbard. Well, not the real one. Got it. Not the one who's trying to feed her dog. Got it. No, this was a nickname that this woman got because she just looked like an unassuming little old lady. Her name is actually Margaret Brown. But she's not the Margaret Brown from the Titanic, the unsinkable Molly Brown that I've talked to you about. Bridget's and Margaret's and Brown's and fucking green and orange. And green and orange. We've taken over. We've been under the skin of this country for such a long time, the Irish. So this Margaret Brown, which is, I think, like being named Jim Smith, probably. There's a lot of unknowns about her. And of course, she does have many other names besides Margaret Brown. We don't even know if that's her real name. It's just one of the names. She claims her legal name is Elizabeth Haskins. We don't know if that's true. She also goes by Eliza Burnham, Jane Hutchinson, and Mrs. Arthur Young, which I'm taking that one. We don't know how old she is. some of the best historical sources place her anywhere from her 60s to her 80s. Can we see that mugshot in here, Molly? That's another one of those. Is it an old hag or is it a young lady? Turned it upside down and it's a vase. For real. Yeah. Also, is it a wig and a hat? I feel like if I hadn't started getting Botox at 33, that's what I would look like right now. Yeah. I mean, it's dead on. It's so you. It's very me. You and your big hats and your downturn. I love it when people's expression is like literally fully downturned, where it looks like Margaret can't smile if she wants to. No, no. If only she knew she was surrounded by beautiful balloons. This is where you get to, Margaret. Okay, so I think in that picture, I think she was, if it's 1886, I bet you she was in her late 50s. Yeah. It's one of those. Yeah. What she is is a superstar street thief who's operated in a large number of cities like Boston, Philly, St. Louis, as far away as Texas. Local newspapers have described her as, quote, one of the most successful and notorious pickpockets and shoplifters in the country. I mean, can we just say how fun is your life? Sorry, don't fucking steal from people, but. But. Look. She's like, I stole that hat. I stole it right off the dummy's head. Okay, so here's what we can't piece together about Margaret's life. She's born in Ireland. She emigrates to the U.S. She takes on legitimate domestic work. And she eventually falls in with a woman named Frederica Mandelbaum or Marm or Mother Mandelbaum. And we've actually talked about Mother Mandelbaum on this show before. She's a legendary fence. So remember that lady that used to sell stuff? Like the criminals would come to her and she was like the middleman. No, but it sounds right. It's a... Mandelbaum. Mrs. Mandelbaum. And she's basically made her own way with the criminals and by the criminals. She moves stolen goods. Okay. And she becomes a maternal figure for the gang of burglars and thieves and con men and women. Yes. I remember her now, yeah. On the Lower East Side. Margaret Brown is one of those people. Okay. Maren very clearly said, no, to Karen, Mandelbaum is Jewish, not Irish. Yeah. And also you covered her. Right. That makes sense. All of it. The name of the episode you covered her in is called, is episode 414, Weather Influencers. Remember that hit? No, but I'm on so much Sudafed right now, so it's okay. Well, just focus. Is going fast helping or would it be better to go slow? No, I'll fall asleep if you go slow. Okay. Margaret's specialty is pickpocketing, which at the time is mostly left to children and sex workers. Those little grubby hands. Yeah, get in there. The best thing about, for me, the musical Annie is just the idea that it's like, well, there's orphans, but there's also children on the street, urchins that are out there just like making it work. But Margaret, who has a kind face and pretty hazel eyes, of course, has a real neck because she looks like a sad little old lady. Never expect an old lady to do anything. So she develops her own signature MO. It's complete with a costume. She always wears these long calico dresses like Little Bo Peep or Mother Goose. Picturing my cat for some calico. There's a lot of fur on the outside. Patches. Okay. Basically doing grandma drag. So it really looks like she's unassuming. Right? She targets busy shops and department stores where she uses her quick agile hands to lift things off of oblivious customers. So she's shoplifting off the shoppers. Got it. Which is kind of smart. Yeah. Because they're watching the goods, not the people's pockets, right? Sure. So one officer describes her as having, quote, a specialty of opening handbags, removing the pocketbook and closing them again. Whoa. That is a specialty. That is. That's like unnecessary. You're showing off at this point. You don't need to do that. You didn't notice. Also, I'm thinking back then, but I'm thinking of like 40s, 50s purses. those ones with the big ball clasp that go snap loud ass clasp yeah she stashes the stolen loot in a waste bag that she's wearing under her dress okay she's also known to use a long wire which she might stick out of her pocket or through a shopping basket and after identifying her mark the person she's going to steal from she'll position the wire so that it gets tangled in that person's clothing as margaret with all her grandmotherly sweetness apologetically works to untangle the wire, she does a sleight of hand move into the pockets of the mark and steals their value. Oh, I'm so sorry. Are you okay over here? Yeah, I love it. In one documented theft, Margaret steals $260 from a man's satchel. Okay. 1890. 1890, $260. I'm going to go $21,000. $20,000. It's $3,200. Sorry. Did I mean? I'm tired. I'm tired. Also, I won't stop playing this game. I know. I won't stop letting you play it and doing it. Sorry. Why would a guy be carrying? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She just basically makes bank off one man. Great. But she keeps going. And as skilled as she is said to be, she does get caught several times. After one of her arrests, police discover she's wearing an expensive silk dress under her cheap dress. Layers. You've got a layer. It's kind of awesome where she's like, I'm actually very stylish. This is merely a costume. In a criminal career that's said to span four or five decades, Margaret will serve time in Chicago, Boston, and New York, including a stint at Blackwell's Island just a few years before trailblazing journalist Nellie Bly goes undercover there. Wow. She's seen all the bad shit. If you want to know the story of trailblazing journalist Nellie Bly, which is it's pretty good. It's in episode 401. Keep a lid on it. You know that one. So during a different incarceration at Joliet in Illinois in the 1870s, this early work, per some sources, Margaret would be in her 70s. But she tries to escape, which I don't buy it because I think her. Yeah, she probably wanted to look older than she actually was, right? And was lying to people. It helped her. They wrote in the book that she was in her 70s. Right. But she probably wasn't. And here's maybe proof of this theory. Did you just call me baby? Hey, baby. I think I said here's maybe. Yeah. Did I? You did. What am I on? She reportedly tries to escape from jail by jumping out of a third story window. No, just hang out. She falls to the ground and almost dies from her injuries, but she doesn't die from those injuries. She recovers, she completes her prison sentence, and she continues creating a paper trail of arrests as she keeps it up into the 1880s. Her documented arrests stop somewhere around 1885. Whether this is when she dies, when she retires, or if she just stops getting caught altogether is a mysterious piece of her story. By the early 20th century, the number of Irish immigrants arriving in North America starts to slow down. Discrimination softens. Irish Americans begin seeing real upward mobility. As Lane Farrell and Leanne McCormick write in their book, Bad Bridget, quote, The dominant narrative of Irish immigration to North America became focused on those who came from humble beginnings in Ireland and made a better life for themselves They or their children went on to become pillars of society They became the Kennedys a political dynasty or the Eatons who established Canada largest department store chain But as the Irish became more upwardly mobile, establishing themselves within North American society, there was no appetite on either side of the Atlantic to face up to the reality that many Irish female immigrants did not succeed and that many ended up on the wrong side of the law. Telling the stories of these women is crucial to our understanding of the Irish past, end quote. And so today, as we celebrate St. Patrick's Day, we are honoring the Bridgets of all kinds and the Margarets and the Marians and the Annies and her two sisters, who as poor women belong to a demographic that is so often omitted from history books. But now, thanks to the tireless efforts of Farrell and McCormick and all of the historians that are keeping all of this history alive for all of us and the history of the Bad Bridge, it's alive specifically. The stories are finally being told. And, of course, there's a movie in the works starring Daisy Edgar Jones from Normal People. Nice. And it's going to be directed by the director Rich Pepiot. But I don't know if you ever saw the 2024 movie Kneecap about the Irish rappers and they're super political and it's amazing. Is it a documentary or is it? It's scripted. It seems like, what do they call that? It's like a pseudo doc where it's like scripted, but it's based on their real lives. Yeah. And how they basically busted out as these kind of like Irish, I guess, rappers. but they like their shit is about like freeing Palestine and stuff like they're hyper political global it's very very cool and the movie's great and got a lot of awards so the Bad Bridgets movie is going to be made by the kneecap guy which is nice very deserved very on theme and that's the story of the Bad Bridgets of early America wow I love that term Bad Bridgets like that just encapsulates so much do you have pictures the Lower East Side That's five points. There's a tenement house. Oh, look at that tenement house. Picture my grandma going, I don't know about you guys, but I'm not staying here. Absolutely not, she said. She said, no way. Too much clutter. Man, God. That's so crazy. There's the mugshot database. It wasn't a book. That's why Maren called it a database. It literally looks like mini x-rays. It does. Like an x-ray board. There it is. Oh, there we go. God, if I could find one of those in an estate sale, my life would be complete. In the basement of a Lower East Side old tenement house. That's in there. Just go in. Oh. Because the individual pictures in that thing are incredible, I bet you. I mean, there's like, there's her. Right. And then there's. That's like the find. Someone let us know. That's like, remember in the very beginning of the podcast and I was like, I've always wanted one of those D.A.R.E. drug suitcases. Yeah. That they would bring to D.A.R.E. and show you all the different kinds of drugs. And someone went in their dad's fucking ex-cop garage. Yep. And sent me that. He got it. So we're asking for this now. Ship it. Ship this. We wanted express ship. Ship this rare antique. We'll just hang it there. And then when we have pictures for our stories, we'll put them in that. I love it. And light them up. We'll use it for good. We promise. Well, great job. Yeah. Thank you. Bad Bridgetts. If that's not a fucking punk band yet, then. Come on. All lady punk band. Let's talk to the kneecap boys about it. That's right. Hi, it's Alec Baldwin. this season on my podcast, here's the thing I'm speaking with more artists, policymakers, and performers, like composer Mark Shaman. Once you've established that you have the talent, it's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with. You know, Rob and I was always a great hang. We would sit in kibitz for hours and then eventually get around to the music. That's what I mostly think of when I think of him, the time together laughing. Lawyer Robbie Kaplan. The great gift of being a lawyer is the ability to actually change things in our society in a way that very few people can. I mean, you can really make a difference to causes in the United States if you bring the right case at the right time. Marriage equality. Yeah, Windsor's the perfect example. And journalist Chris Whipple. Every White House staffer, they work in a bubble called the West Wing, and it's exponentially more so in the Trump White House. Listen to the new season of Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Danielle Robay, host of Bookmarked, the podcast by Reese's Book Club. And this week on Bookmarked, we're basically hosting the ultimate girls' night. Reese Witherspoon, Jennifer Garner, Judy Greer, Rita Wilson, and Gauri Rice, and author Laura Dave. These are the women behind season two of the Apple TV series The Last Thing He Told Me. We're talking about turning a book into a hit show and what it really takes to bring a story to life. The most important metric for me is do I want to share this book with somebody? That's what creates community. And that's the main thesis of our book club and why we started it was just to connect people together. Listen to The Bookmarked by Risa's Book Club podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 10-10 shots, five, city hall building. A silver .40 caliber handgun was recovered at the scene. From iHeart Podcasts and Best Case Studios, this is Rorschach, Murder at City Hall. How could this have happened at City Hall? Somebody tell me that! July 2003, Councilman James E. Davis arrives at New York City Hall with a guest. Both men are carrying concealed weapons. And in less than 30 minutes, both of them will be dead. Everybody in the chambers ducked. A shocking public murder. I screamed, get down, get down. Those are shots. Those are shots. Get down. A charismatic politician. You know, he just bent the rules all the time. I still have a weapon. And I could shoot you. And an outsider with a secret. He alleged he was a victim of blackmail. That may or may not have been political. That may have been about sex. Listen to Rorschach, Murder at City Hall, starting on March 25th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right. Well, mine's actually like a kind of scammy, similar in scam. Yes. You know, the scam world, although very different and a little more, not a little more, very more current day. So this story is about a bright teenager who got caught up in a tall tale and wound up telling an elaborate hoax that fooled half of the media industry in New York during a time when the media industry in New York was substantially bigger and, you know, more impressive, I think, than it is now. This is the story of Mohammed Islam. The main sources used for the story are reporting from The Guardian and The New York Observer, and the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. So it's the fall of 2013. Take us back. And we're in Stuyvesant High School in Lower Manhattan. Stuyvesant is one of New York City's nine specialized high schools. So they have these high schools. Admission to these schools is determined only by a single academic entrance exam, which is all eighth graders take. it's really difficult to get into these schools. It's an incredibly competitive environment and the pressure is very high. If you get in, you still fucking better perform. And actually... That's how school is. It's not that one test. No. Fame is one of those schools. Like the school where fame came from is one of the schools. It happens to just be performing arts. That one, all the other ones are based more on... Sorry. No, no. I just, when you said that about the schools, I thought of the fame high school, but then I was like, don't try to change the subject to what you like talking about. So that's kind of exciting that it is. Kate went to that high school. Stuyvesant? You bet. Am I saying it right? She says it's right. What the fuck? God damn it. Can you still walk out there? That's crazy. Wait, like hot lunch jam? You stood on the table in the cafeteria and stuff? Not the fame one. This one. Math and science. Oh, this one. Math and science school. Yeah. Not fame. Not fame. She could have done both. But the fame of math and science. Yeah, whatever that. Frilling musical. That musical is the musical we want to see. Yeah, these are some of the best high schools in the country. And it's generally agreed upon that among these schools, Stuyvesant is the best in the city. I know. These schools draw from all over the city. And Stuyvesant especially has a high proportion of students who are first generation Americans. Americans, often the children of immigrants who have made tremendous sacrifices for their children's education. So there's a lot of children of immigrants. However, there's just obviously, you know, a history of racism going on because it's a hard test to take. And a lot of students who don't go to these schools that are, you get it. Well, you know, what it makes me think of is the thing that happened where there was testing like that and they discovered, you know, like the systemic racism of that time where it would be word problems in math. And it'd be like, if so many people can sit on this length of sofa and so many people can sit in length of sofa, how long does the sofa have to be to fit this family? I totally made that up. Something like that. But the fact that they were using the word sofa instead of couch. So a bunch of kids who are culturally never heard the word before were like, I don't even know how to work on this problem. And they realized that certain and I think the study was being done about black students that were taking these tests. And it's like, why do none of them do well? And it's like, because no one's used the word sofa in their household ever. That's a systemic racism issue. Okay. So these kids who make it into these very difficult to get into schools often grow up with a huge amount of pressure to perform very well academically. So there's a lot of pressure going on. They're very smart, but they can't be like me and just not go to half of your high school period time. So the fall of 2013. A lot of pressure. If you're an immigrant child whose parents gave everything up to bring you to have. Can you imagine to go to high school? Yeah. Yeah. It's the fall of 2013. And Mohammed Islam is one of these such students. He is a soft-spoken 16-year-old whose parents immigrated from Bangladesh. Mohammed is a junior in high school. And he's known around school to be brilliant in a school where everyone is pretty much brilliant. So that's a high achievement. He runs the school's investing club. I was in that. That's right. I was the secretary. In which kids who are interested in the stock market make simulated trades with fake money. Just testing. Just for fun. The waters. Yeah. But then it starts to get around the school that on the side, Mohammed, Moe, as he's known, is actually making real investments with real money. Yeah. So it's not simulated. Turns out the rumor is that he's doing very well with these investments. I don't mean to press you, but is that legal for like a high school student to be day trading? I would assume you have to be 18. Yeah, right? Yeah, but I don't know. Maybe I'll learn something new as you tell me. In November 2013, Mo appears in a listicle, remember those? On Business Insider of Kid Investors. It's like a 20 under 20. So I guess you can do that. Yeah, I guess you can. Gambling, right? It does. Or like something that should be more official. but I guess it's like regulated. I guess under 20 can still be over 18 and under 20, but it doesn't seem likely. No. He tells Business Insider that he had gotten his start in penny stocks and then worked his way into higher stakes securities. He says, quote, my main markets now are crude oil futures and gold futures, and I trade small to mid-cap equities when the futures don't present a good trade. It just makes me think of trading places, which Vince and I watch every Christmas. The best movie. And that's all I know about stocks. Yeah. And that's what he knows about. So it's just stuff like that that I know nothing about. It's unclear how Mo first connects with the reporter of that business insider story. But at that point, he hasn't told anyone that he's made a serious amount of money with his trades. But somehow over the course of the next year, rumors begin to swirl around Stuyvesant that Mo has made a staggering amount of money. and people seem to believe somehow the number that gets thrown around, that gets tied to him is $72 million that he has made. In some casual day trades? Yeah, which is an outrageous and basically unheard of profit for anyone who's been trading for just a couple years, let alone a high school student. So it's wild. It's big. A whole year goes by. And then in December of 2014, New York Magazine includes an article about Mo and its annual Reasons to Love New York issue. Money. Because of money kids. Money kids. Money kids opening for Bad Bridget. And Newsies. And Zebulon this weekend. It sounds like what happened is a parent of another student at Stuyvesant heard about Moe, then passed the story along to his colleagues at the magazine. Just how rumors start and continue. And then a reporter named Jessica Pressler is assigned to cover the story. So Jessica's story unquestionably categorizes the 72 million figure as a rumor. She's like a journalist. She's not going to be like, it's true. Yeah. She writes, quote, rumors on Wall Street can be powerful. A whisper can turn into a current that moves markets, driving a stock price up or sending it tumbling. There may only be one other place where gossip holds such sway, and that is high school. High school. I was going to say that. It's so clear that it's like, I heard he made $72 million. $72 million. It sounds like a joke amount. Yeah, because it's absurd. She writes that Mo is shy about confirming that exact number, but says that his net worth is in the, quote, high eight figures. Okay. So he's kind of confirming it. Yeah. In the article, Jessica writes about sitting down with Mo and two of his friends who act as his spokesman. I think they're a lot more gregarious and outgoing and Mo's pretty shy. Mo smiles at the reporter and one of his friends, a boy named Patrick, says, quote, he's quiet today. And like they're almost just like talking for him. The other friend, a teen named Demir, adds, quote, this is our third meeting of the day. We saw a real estate agent, a lawyer and you, end quote. And Jessica writes that they have a meeting with a hedge fund guy next. So they're like acting like movers and shakers. But it's like you're young. You have your whole life to do boring shit like that. Like that idea where it's just like. Like make money? Make money but also just kind of like, hey, listen, we've got to go meet with a real estate agent. It's like, well, enjoy your meeting. It's almost like that's like 30-somethings we all do. And it's like annoying. Like it makes more sense for a teenager to do it. to like get into where it's like, we're going to spend money. We're going to do this and that. Yeah, it's a little less disgusting, but still. The three say that they plan to launch a hedge fund of their own when Mo turns 18 once he's old enough to get a broker-dealer license. So maybe he can deal, but he can't get a license. This whole interview takes place at a downtown cafe where the boys eat caviar and drink cold-pressed apple juice. No. They're babies. What a combo. That can't be a... That's really gross. That's disgusting. Mohan said he's shopping for a BMW and apartments, and even though his parents won't let him move out until he's 18. And at the end of the interview Demir says quote my father has a quote It really dope says the teenager You can rob a bank with a gun but you can rob the whole world with a bank Which I kind of fucking love Oh, shit. Yeah. I think we've really learned that here in 2026. That is absolutely not an exaggeration. Before the article is published, New York Magazine's fact checkers get in contact with Mo, asking for proof that his claims of an income in the high eight figures is true. The fact checker winds up going down to Stuyvesant so that Moe can provide a bank statement. And Moe gives the magazine what appears to be a Chase bank statement confirming an eight-figure balance. So they did do fair due diligence. You can't say that. Not on St. Patrick's Day. Yes. OK. So many drugs. The day the article is published, it completely blows up. Everyone who sits at a desk in 2014 who spends some of their workday scrolling on Twitter reads this article, let's say, goes viral. Yeah. It gets picked up by other outlets. The New York Post, of course, runs the story and puts that $72 million number in the headline kind of, you know, they're not the biggest fact checkers of all time. So they're just like. Because you said it was like the 20 teens, right? 14, yeah. So it's people are getting into clickbait. Exactly. People love a clickbait headline click. They sure do. Doesn't matter if it's true. And it's picked up by many other sites and like kind of then treated as fact in a way. Yes, I have a little experience with that, as do you. Sure do. But then pretty quickly, like a bunch of people stop and really think about the details. The return of $72 million in just a couple of years of investing is basically, basically impossible. Like not even just unheard of. It's not possible. Business reporters immediately start to have doubts, as Ken Kurson from the New York Observer will later write, quote, Even if this working class kid had somehow started with $100,000 as a high school freshman on day one at Stuy, he'd have needed to average a compounded annualized return of something like 796 percent over the three years since. Then he says, come on, man, end quote. So Mo and Demir are invited to appear on CNBC to talk about this, their investment strategy, because they're fucking whiz kids. Hey, man. Yeah. But while they're on their way to the studio, you know, as the story is blowing up, the Business Insider reporter who had featured Mo on the list of the kid investor story calls and starts asking them some follow up questions. A little late. At this point, Demir confirms to the reporter that that $72 million number is a rumor. But he says, quote, pretty sure Moe is a great trader and a genius, end quote. Like, what's it called? Dialing it back? Oh, yeah. Having to walk it back. The CNBC studios are across the Hudson River in New Jersey. So by the time the boys get there, they're pretty rattled because clearly people are onto them. Moe at first doesn't want to get out of the car even, which is like, God, I've been there. Eventually, some producers coax the boy into the building and they're brought to the office of CNBC's editor-in-chief. So now adults are asking them more questions and you might get in trouble now. Also, just the idea of coaxing them out of the car. It's just like, look, we've got Capri Suns and Atari or whatever. We have caviar and fresh pressed apple juice. What kind of video games do you like, boys? All the fresh press, cold press apple juice you could drink. And this man who's a CNBC's editor-in-chief used to be an editor at the Wall Street Journal. So he knows what questions to ask. He starts asking Mo to explain his strategy and say exactly how much money is involved. You know, like don't throw out rumor numbers. Mo tries his best to answer. And then the guy says, it isn't 72 million, is it? And Mo confirms that it is not and claims he's made a profit closer to 3 million. which is a lot less than 72 million. Still impressive for a teen. Some would say it's 69 million less. That's what I would say. But who are we to say? It is such a hilarious lie. And also I feel like I remember reading that story when it was the listicle story. We're just like, what are these kids doing? The kids know what's going on. Right. Maybe I could do it. No, you can't. And then the boys declined to go through with the on-air interview, which is smart, but CNBC reports what they have learned. So the fucking jig is up. That very evening, Demira and Mo, both 17 years old, mind you, hire a crisis PR firm and then head straight from CNBC to their offices, to the crisis PR's office because they're like, fuck. But like they never, like they were just kind of nudging this thing along that the adults were all offering them. They were 17 years old and they're like, let's just tell them we did this. Let's tell them we did that. Like, it's kind of funny. And let's pretend like we have, you know, this bravado that we don't have. Yeah, like we're exceptionally successful. Right. But like the second you go $72 million on penny stocks or whatever. I mean, that's the thing that sticks out to me of like, remember we were playing penny machines in the casino. Penny machines are like how you get to hang out and get free drinks all night. Yeah, that's right. But you probably wouldn't get the jackpot of 72 million off penny stocks. No, you wouldn't. So once they get this PR firm, they sit down with a reporter from the New York Observer and the whole truth comes out. They tell them we were lying that the three million dollar profit that Mo claimed later to have is also a lie and that Mohammed has only been placing simulated trades. There's no money at all. But I feel like they were just giving the adults what they were asking for. Yes. You know what I mean? We're extraordinary. We get good grades. We go to this rad school. We can do anything. We just lied about dumber shit when we were in high school. They lied about something that adults cared about, I guess. Yeah, they like, instead of being like, I'm going to be at Georgia's house. Right. And then you're like, I'm going to be at Karen's house. And then the big lie is we're drinking behind the grocery store. Those aren't my cigarettes. Those are Karen's cigarettes. She asked me to hold them for her. You know how Georgia loves clothes, Mom. She does it every time. I have to hold them. Yeah. So he hasn't made any money at all. And Mo does say that if he had been investing money, he would have done really well. But it doesn't. Me too. I know. Me too. Mo tells the reporter that his parents are furious with him about his lies. He says, quote, honestly, my dad wanted to disown me. My mom basically said she'd never talk to me. Their morals are that if I lie about it and don't own up to it, then they can no longer trust me. He's a fucking teenager. He adds that he's been sleeping over at a friend's house because his parents are so upset with him. He doesn't want to say who, but it seems like Demir is the one. And it seems like they're having a great time and just like being teenagers and kind of like reveling in this. It's like this thing that keeps moving forward, even though it shouldn't have a long time ago. Yeah, they made themselves a story. Right. And the adults fell for it. Totally. And there is a victory in that if you're a 17-year-old in high school. Totally. Like these fucking actual like business people believed you. Meanwhile, on Twitter, Jessica Pressler, the journalist who wrote that original story saying not saying it was true, but saying these are the rumors. She defends her story saying that she saw the bank statement and that the New York magazine isn't a financial publication anyways. So like it's not like a Wall Street Journal where the questions would have been asked about the actual earnings. But that's a misstep because Jessica had been hired to work on a new investigations team at Bloomberg, which is a financial publication. And Bloomberg winds up rescinding the job offer. I think she kind of gets some egg on her face from it. But Jessica does stay at New York Magazine and goes on to report some very juicy stories in the future. And she does have a redemption arc. She will later say that she had a funny feeling about the story and asked her editor to check it out before running it, which is what they're supposed to do. Yeah. And that that didn't happen. New York Magazine changes the headline on the story to take out that $72 million number and adds a note at the top explaining the situation. The note says, quote, we were duped. Yeah. And then Allie wrote a note to me saying I was a cub reporter at Bloomberg when all of this was happening. Whoa. Allie, my fucking incredible researcher. Yeah. There was a she said there was a commotion. Jessica Pressler does fine in the end. She writes the article that becomes the basis for the movie Hustlers. Yes. Right. Great movie. Yeah. And later winds up reporting the Anna Delvey story. Oh. So she does OK. She is fine. Yeah. She like proves herself. Well, and I think doesn't that kind of point back to that's the kind of journalism like you were saying. It's not finance journalism. It's grabby. Personality based. Yeah, it's very Internet-y, like, can you believe this is real? Whatever. Yeah. And that is like, it's almost like human interest of, did you even know there was a person like this? Right, right. So the New York Observer reporter Ken Kurson wraps up his article like this, quote, No one asked for my opinion, but I'm going to provide it anyway. Love that. Cool. Having sat with these kids for a good bit on a tough day, they got carried away. They're not children, but they're not quite adults either. and at least Mr. Islam was literally quaking as we spoke. So I feel like his boisterous friends were like, you know, say it, say it. And it just became bigger than it was supposed to and it just so happened that they were in fucking Manhattan and so it became huge. Also, don't you think that not, his name is Mo, Mo's friend, there's one guy in there and you know the type and he's Mr. Big Personality. He's a personality hire. He's so fun. Energy, energy, energy. Ideas, ideas. Good times. Yeah. He's the one. He spread that rumor, I bet. Hell yes. You know what my friend did? You know what my friend, like. You know what we're going to do? We're going to eat fucking caviar and apple juice all day. Do you want to come with us? Like, yeah. There's that where the guy that has the goods. Yeah. They're like, we're going to do a bunch of stuff because of you. You're our smartest friend. We're going to spread a rumor about you. I'm the loudest friend. I'm the loudest. You're the smartest. Let's do this thing. Yeah. Now there's a third guy because there's always a third guy. Always. So, yeah, they should have known better. But New York and the New York Post probably should have as well. This story smelled fishy the instant it appeared and a quick dance with a calculator probably would have saved these young men and a couple of reporters some embarrassment, end quote. Oh, that's his quote? A quick dance with a calculator is such a funny way to say it. Yeah, I know. That's part of Ken's quote. And that is the story of a rumor that swept the halls of Stuyvesant High School and briefly fooled the world, or at least some of the world, story of Mohammed Islam. As you were kind of like wrapping it down, it's like, these are kids at an incredibly competitive high school. Yeah. We're excelling. At anything. you have to do it and you're used to being top three in your class now you're bottom 20 it makes sense that you'd be well maybe this will make me special maybe this will make me stand out let me spread this rumor it goes a little too far we got money baby we're getting invited to parties my parents are mad at me oh shit I have to talk to a reporter and it's making me shake yeah but I'm bringing my friend so he's gonna do it he's gonna mouth off Jesus Christ. There's your podcast right there. There you go. There it is. Well, thank you for listening, everyone. And thank you for, you know, St. Patrick. Do you think maybe we thank St. Patrick for getting rid of all the snakes? Oh, that's what he did, right? I think so. Okay. Well, Vince will like that. He hates snakes. Yeah, he should go over there. Okay. I'm wearing green. Celebrate. Me too. I couldn't believe I found this. The green I had on was such a non-green color. And I was like, oh, I don't really have anything. And then all of a sudden I look over. You have to wear it. Have to. Represent. Definitely. Well, you did it. And thanks for representing here, everyone. We appreciate you guys listening. Hey, and just remember, you can do anything if you have two sisters along with you. Because that's really the magic of all of this. Am I right? You are. Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie? This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana Squalachi. Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Allie Elkin. Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com. And follow the show on Instagram at myfavoritemurder. Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix. And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me buttons. That's the best way you can support our show. Goodbye. When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on? Biggie. You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable? Because I want to get confident. This is DJ Hester Prince's Music is Therapy. A new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist. 12 months, 12 areas of your life. money, love, career, confidence. This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester-Prince's Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, Here's the Thing, I talk to composer Mark Shaman. It's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with. You know, Rob and I was always a great hang. And journalist Chris Whipple. Every White House staffer, they work in a bubble called the West Wing, and it's exponentially more so in the Trump White House. Listen to the new season of Here's the Thing on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Danielle Robay, host of Bookmarked, the podcast by Reese's Book Club. And this week on Bookmarked, we're basically hosting the ultimate girls' night. Reese Witherspoon, Jennifer Garner, Judy Greer, Rita Wilson, and Gauri Rice and author Laura Dave. These are the women behind season two of the Apple TV series, The Last Thing He Told Me. We're talking about turning a book into a hit show and what it really takes to bring a story to life. The most important metric for me is, do I want to share this book with somebody? That's what creates community. And that's the main thesis of our book club and why we started it was just to connect people together. Listen to The Bookmarked by Rees's Book Club podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. scrolling for something to watch, you can now watch us on Netflix. Search My Favorite Murder for new weekly episodes. And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me buttons because that's the best way you can support our show. Goodbye. 10-10 shots fired in City Hall building. How could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that. A shocking public murder. This is one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics. I screamed, get down, get down. Those are shots. A tragedy that's now forgotten. And a mystery. That may or may not have been political. That may have been about sex. Listen to Rorschach Murder at City Hall starting on March 25th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.