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These injuries, both physical, psychological, physiological, that are measurable, documented by medical professionals, they're not caused by clouds or weather balloons or swamp gas or planets or any other bullshit explanations that we get for UAP. They're caused by physical effects generated by some kind of a crap. The health of populations at scale and particularly how we can build more resilience around possible disclosure where arguably millions if not hundreds of millions of people may be affected and we'll need to prepare for that perhaps like a pandemic. One of the most curious about us reading in your report was the cash lander case, really powerful case. We have what appears to be radiation poisoning. I was given a video tape by John Lear back in the day that I've never found online and it seems like just after the incident. I can say it wasn't completely fine. You know mommy? It was personally funny. That's the best way to describe it is the time. This is Weaponized. Hope everyone had a pleasant and relaxing Labor Day holiday here in the U.S. I am George Knapp, a journalist in Las Vegas, joined by my friend and colleague Jeremy Corbel beaming to us from parts unknown. Jeremy, how's it going? Pretty good man. Labor Day, just relaxing. You know, it's here in the desert. It almost felt like autumn today. I mean, that is from about 7 a.m. until 9-ish and then the heat kicked in and we're back to normal. You can hear the air conditioning making noise in the background. How about you? Yeah, man. It's scorching, man. It's scorched earth right now, but that's okay. Today we have the pleasure of helping to spread the word about a new, highly credible, hugely important paper put together by an organization named Unhidden. But based on decades of very solid work by people we know, data collected by names we know, addressing the question, are UFOs bad for human health? And if that question sounds familiar, it might be because it's one that we have raised on this program, Jeremy many times before, and in other venues and platforms in the past, based largely on the excellent work that was done by OSAP, the Advanced Aerospace Weapon Systems Application Program, which was hosted by the DEA. It's the largest acknowledged UAP-related investigation ever funded by the U.S. government. They may have bigger ones, but they haven't admitted to those. OSAP is the biggest that we know of, and most of that work was done for the DEA. A lot of it was done by an organization called Bass, a company based here in Las Vegas, and we have talked to the principal program managers, Dr. Jim Likatsky, Dr. Colin Kellacher in the past, and they've shared some of that information with us. And most of the work that was done by OSAP for the DEA has never seen a light of day. It's still bottled up somewhere. There have been leaks or two here and there, and Jeremy, you and I both helped release some of these dirts, these defense intelligence reference documents that were meant to be distributed, at least within the JWICS and intelligence community, but the public had never seen them until we made a public. One of the focuses of that study, the OSAP program, was health effects of UAP UFOs on humans, correct? Yeah, and it was really interesting when the DIA report was finally put out to the public and everybody's looking at it and they're seeing that close proximity to UAP causes all of these electromagnetic effects, radiation effects. I think it really hit home. People were most interested in that. What is that that causes all of those injuries that have been well documented and being that it was a DIA document and then released to the public? It really captured the imagination of the public. Also, this new report that was done, it also touches on the 2021 ODNI report confirming UAP as physical object posing aviation risk. So, what was cool was that this new report really pulled from all the literature and information that was out there and historical context and brought it into focus about these kind of negative health effects caused by close proximity to UAP. And if we can't get people's attention on UAP because of stigma, certainly we can get their attention on the documented negative biological effects of close proximity to UAP. So, I thought this was really foundational. I thought it was really good that an outside group went and did this. Yeah, and obviously, these injuries, both physical, psychological, physiological, that are measurable, documented by medical professionals, they're not caused by clouds or weather balloons or swamp gas or planets or any other bullshit explanations that we get for UAP. They're caused by physical effects generated by some kind of a craft. And the guy who put this all together that founded this organization, his name John Priestland, he's our guest today. He's a physicist and management consultant, began his career as a civil servant working for a UK cabinet office before moving into senior roles in engineering consultancy. He's a fellow of both the Institute of Physics and the Institution of Civil Aged Ears. In 2023, he created the Unhidden Foundation to promote better care for people affected by UAP with a particular focus on mental and physical health. And John Priestland joins us now. Hey, John. Thanks for having me on. It's great to be here. Jeremy, you want to start it off? Yeah, look, I was just fascinated in little circles. This paper got out a few days earlier, at least a couple of days early, and I received it and I was reading through it and I could see a lot of primary sourcing coming from the DIA document that was released, but also just the way you thought about it was very unique and you brought in a few other things that were not kind of correlated into this topic. So I just wanted to know kind of first off is, you know, why did you start this process, this organization, and how did you come about? Is this the first thing you've put out as an organization? So we, our focus last year was on mental health and well-being. So we put out a report entitled The Impact of Exceptional Experiences on Mental Health and Well-Being, focusing on the stigma, focusing on the fact that people have frightened to go to their doctors and tell them what they've seen, which I think is a terrible thing. And this year we focused on the second pillar of the health triple, if you like, for UAPs, which is physical health, and that came out last Monday. And the third pillar will be public health, that is the health of populations at scale, and particularly how we can build more resilience around possible disclosure, where arguably millions, if not hundreds of millions of people may be affected. And we'll need to prepare for that, perhaps like a pandemic, and certainly to be prepared is a good thing. And that's where public health comes in. So mental health, physical health, and public health. And the organization Unhidden is trying to bring a robust medical and clinical approach to the UAP topic. So we have a medical advisory board made up of some really very eminent practicing clinical medical professionals. We have a neurophysiologist and a psychiatrist, a pathologist. We have two general practitioners, which is the everyday medicine in the UK. So the somebody reporting having seen a UAP incident would typically go to their GP. And we have two clinical psychologists, including the head of a major European psychology department at a university. And so they've taken the editorial decisions on our Health Effects report. I put the information together, along with a number of other people very well connected. And our methodology has been developed in conjunction with some of the you know well, Dr. Tim Lomas. Tim is wonderful in the way he weaves his different breadcrumbs together into papers like Crypto Terrestrials. And he helped us create a particular methodology for what this is. This is a literature review. It's not primary research. He calls it curated emergence, which is a lovely phrase. And effectively, it means unlike a traditional literature review where you give much, much more weight to peer reviewed academic sources. In this case, you cast the net wider because of the nature of the topic. And that's very clear in the methodology. It also shows the challenges and weakness of the report. And we argue that we need more research, more research from civilians, but also potentially more research from the military and intelligence side of the wire doctors on the other side of that brought into the civilian community, which you touched on in your introduction, George, with both the the all sat paper, anomalous acute and subacute field effects on human and biological tissue, which is the main source of the information for our report. But also the suggestion very much echoed in your book, Skin Walkers at the Pentagon, that there's more that all sat did and more that could potentially come out to help civilian doctors. That program ended 14 years ago. The dirt that you reference and reference in the study has been made public. And we'll talk about that more. But the other stuff that was done, the other studies, the other individual cases has not been seen. It must be frustrating in the sense that we know these things are real. They're not imaginary things in the sky, clouds and such. These these injuries are real. That was sort of the the brilliance and the courageousness of that study is that it followed the evidence wherever it led, no matter how silly it may be dismissed by the critics. You were not worried about pursuing these these subjects because the injuries are so real, correct? Well, that's right. And when one looks across the range of UAP cases, ones that we're all familiar with, many people will look at them as a set of technologies or a curiosity about what the craft or the causes doctors would look at them as a really unusual set of medical cases, the sort of things that would get written up in the British Medical Journal where a doctor says, I had a curious case the other day. I mean, there's enough if you look across some of the cases that we covered, you know, Val and Sol, Vulcan Lake, if you look at Rendlesham, you know, Vulcan Lake has this very curious burn pattern on Stefan Mitchellax's chest. Where did that come from? You know, the myth, mitral valves, mitral valve that failed with John Burroughs in 2012, long time after the the radiation exposure at Rendlesham. I mean, it's a fascinating case study for doctors. I mean, it would be a whole season on House MD. We need to get Hugh Laurie looking at some of this. But the doctors look at it a different way. And yet people and their health issues are in the background, you know, they're seen as maybe collateral damage. And we think people matter. And we think that it's another reason, a third reason why people in Congress and policymakers should take this topic seriously. Clearly, there's national security, clearly, there's safety of flight, but there's also health. And if Congress people are listening, then their citizens are being affected, their mental health and potentially their physical health is being affected. So come and have a look at what UAPs are all about. Hey, there weaponized listeners. When I put on the right clothing, it feels like armor. A thoughtfully built wardrobe comes down to pieces that mix well and last. That's where Quince shines premium fabrics, considered design and everyday essentials that feel effortless to wear and dependable, even as the seasons change or the skies fill with things we can't explain. Here's what I can tell you. And some of it is classified. Quince has the everyday essentials. I actually reach for lightweight cashmere sweaters, short sleeve mongolian cashmere polos, linen bottoms and shorts, teas in 100% Pima cotton and European Jersey linen. These are the versatile pieces that make a wardrobe actually work, season to season, mission to mission. 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One of the most curious about I was reading in your report was the cash landroom case. Really powerful case. We have what appears to be radiation poisoning. I was given a videotape by John Lear back in the day that I've never found online. And it's a it seems like just after the incident. It wasn't completely wrong. You know, mommy. One perfectly point. That's the best way you can describe it. It was tiny diamond shape. Daddy got all the men inside the car and I got him a gift. Freshman inside the car and so we lived and totally tried to run and I grabbed him in the head on payment, pushed him back to the car. He walked through the of the front of the car and I thought he was gonna get burned up. If I hadn't had causes with me, I probably would have got pictures where I had beds all over me and I was in the bed for two weeks. I was just sick. My man's still all completely. You know, right? My single pants. I mean, the whole thing peeled off. It's the legal piece. It's the size of my knee. I think we were just at the wrong place at the wrong time. It was something I believe that the girl was escorting something that got him to go all by the truck. I mean, they're supposed to protect the people, but it's a change that is painful of government officials in Washington, big cities can do anything they want and get by with it. Even commit murder and never be punished. But now they're useful of officials in Washington, these things that they can do in front of the police. And they're placed white clean. They don't have to answer or be respectful or nobody. I don't know their direct origin, but it was given to me by Lear and she's talking about the burns and talking about the hair falling out and all of these things out of all the cases you looked at for your report. Is there any that really sticks out to you and why? Well, I think that one is particularly concerning because as you say, the child was involved and it's just such a common everyday occurrence, people driving across the country and then whatever the cause was, it absolutely devastates their lives. I suppose I have a particular soft spot for Rendlesham and John Burroughs, partly because that's a British case. And you know, we get the commentary over here that, hey, if UAPs were real, they wouldn't all be in America, you know, some of that absolutely nonsense. And so where we point to cases like Rendlesham, that's very good. And I think John Burroughs has been such a stalwart campaigning for better care and support for veterans and others affected. What the heck was going on out there that would draw this much attention from the agencies involved to this day? What would still be classified? And if it is, what did we have or what were we dealing with that would still remain silent today? Almost every weapon we've ever developed back in that time frame has been exposed that we're aware of. And yet today, this is still classified and we can't even receive medical treatment for it. And he wrote a very persuasive article about two months ago in the Roswell Daily News about the importance of this topic. So I think Rendlesham stands out and also links with some of the research that was done in the UK by the Ministry of Defense in the 1990s. One of the great parts about this report is it starts off with a bang with the Jacques Belet, reviewing the literature, the work that he has done. I mean, he was an instrumental, a key figure in that whole OSAP program. And I think it's his part that notes how people are reluctant to report these entries. There's no way really to estimate how many other people out there have had them because they're embarrassed to report it. Or when they do report it, they don't describe the actual circumstances, right? Absolutely. So Jack wrote the forward. He's an ambassador to Anne Hiddon and he spent quite a lot of time with our Medical Advisory Board because he's had so many first hand experiences, not of the craft or the objects themselves, but first hand interviews with people who've had those experiences. And he writes, as you say, in the forward, he says, witnesses have sometimes told me that they did not dare tell doctors what had happened to them. So they made up a story to account for their complaint. And that also echoes the account of somebody else we feature in the report, a man called Paul Sinclair. Paul is an experienced surf based in Yorkshire. He's the author of a book called Night People, which is very moving. And he talks about the evening in 1997 and the morning after where he wakes up remembering some vague sense of there being gray figures clustered around his bed. And there are three deep puncture wounds, ash filled puncture wounds in his back. There's a picture, he took a polaroid of it, there's a picture in the Unhidden Report, and also a record from his case notes when he went to the hospital. And the case officer, the casualty officer obviously asked him, well, what happened? And Paul recalls that he would prefer to be regarded as a liar than to be thought of as mentally ill. So instead of explaining what happened, he said, I don't know. Isn't that terrible? We're supposed to be able to go to our doctors because it's a pillar of our relationship with our medical system. We're supposed to be able to go and tell our doctors everything, intimate, embarrassing, they need to know to call in a phrase. But not with this topic, the stigma around UAPs is so great. People would prefer to be regarded as a liar than to run the risk of a diagnosis of mental health. And one more point on this, which is there's a professor in France, a professor Thomas Rabayron from the University of Lorraine, has done some wonderful work setting up a counselling service for people who've had exceptional experiences. It's called Cersei. And he wrote a paper in 2023 where he came up with a word for this pathologisation. And he says that there's this double whammy of the experiences, seeing something frightening, something in the sky that they can't explain. And then the the impact when they try and talk to their friends and families are ridiculed. And when they try and access the medical system, they're pathologised and potentially go down the road of a mental illness diagnosis. They're no more mentally ill than you, me and the gatepost. They've just seen something frightening. And the medical system can't digest that. So a key reason for putting this report together is to be able to engage with the medical community, the professional bodies, the government departments, we're going to send a copy to Robert Kennedy Jr. at NIH and the Surgeon General to engage with them and say, this is real. The information needs to flow down the chain so that if somebody comes in and says, I've seen something strange or I saw a blue orb in my bedroom to coin the what happened to the Axelrod family in Skinwalker at the Pentagon, George, then they're taken seriously. And it is not a diagnosis of mental illness that would naturally follow. Some people have delusions. That's part of the challenge of this topic. But most people have just seen something strange and frightening, and they need care and compassion, not ridicule and shame. In general, can you say whether these injuries are intentional? I know it's hard to make that generalization given all the breadth of what you cover in this report. But the only case I ever had was familiar with that where it seemed intentional was Calaris, which you do reference to this report. I was there in the recent past. We've tracked down many of the people who were there. Many of the public perceptions about Calaris and what happened are way off off base, according to the witnesses who had these injuries. They said, these things weren't laser beams. They seem to be some sort of a sampling operation. They get stuck with some kind of a filament and a ball of light, and blood is taken out of them. Can you talk about Calaris and whether or not that is the only injury mass injury case where it seemed intentional? We wanted to include Calaris because of the wounds. So just in terms of the structure of the report, section two is around UAP cases and drawing out the medical aspects of them. Section three is a more detailed review of the different mechanisms. So electromagnetic radiation, wounds, autoimmune infections, and section four is on the psychology and the mental health aspect. So we wanted to include Calaris, but mainly because of the suck-suck, the wounds that people have. But I think one of the things that is important from a medical perspective of UAPs, George, is that the doctors are much less interested in the cause than the treatment. And that is the case in medicine generally, is what does this patient need and what can I do for them, rather than back up the chain in terms of what caused that wound or what caused that injury. That's for others, for investigators, for the police, in civilian matters. And in this case, it's for ufologists. And Jack Valle came and talked to our medical advisory board and he said that the ufologist interviewing an experiencer will ask a series of questions to try and understand more about the experience, what they've seen, and the nature of UFOs and reality, up to the point where was the alien wearing a hat? Was there a badge on the hat? What colour was it? But a medical person will only ask those questions that are helpful and relevant to the person and the patient. And there have been cases Jack was talking about where a doctor starts to put a patient into some sort of regression or some sort of hypnosis. They find out a little bit about what the experiencers are and then they stop because they realise it's not to the advantage of the patient. Now, both of those approaches, the ufologist going one way and the doctor going the other way are legitimate. Unhidden is on the second of those. We're here to try and help raise the profile of care and to help that care when it's needed. It's for others for ufologists to judge what's happening and the reasons for it. There was a case you brought up in your report that I was less familiar with. It's Valençol, France 1965, the French farmer Maurice. Yes. Yeah. So what was interesting to me about that was that he, like a lot of people that don't want to go public, he talked about seeing a being and like a little child-sized being. There's even a drawing of it that I found online. And essentially the being walked up to him and used this like kind of pointed rod to paralyse him. And it's something that we've heard a lot about in UFO lore. Can you tell me anything about that case or what you found interesting about that? Yes. So Maurice Mass was a lavender farmer and he was out early in the morning and he encountered a craft and a small sort of four foot high being who pointed as you say some sort of rod at him. And his symptoms were exhaustion. He had a change in sleep patterns and behavioural changes and he largely refused to talk about some of the key aspects of it. He wanted to keep it to himself. And there is a film that's been made, a movie that's been made of that, that will be out in the autumn, which I think will bring a lot of it to life. Maurice Mass had been a distinguished member of the resistance as I recall. So was very well regarded and his testimony was seen with a huge amount of credibility of people in the village. But more than that, I can't say. But some of those symptoms start to overlap and we don't have a cause and effect here with some of the symptoms connected with seizures. And there are different parts of the brain connected with different seizures. And so one of the things that's interesting is that Gary Nolan talks a lot about the chordate putamen as the region of the brain that may be affected. I think there are other aspects, the temporal lobe, the parietal lobe that may also be affected. And it's possible that some of the symptoms that Maurice Mass had at least overlap with seizures, which may suggest certain aspects of the brain were affected. The report looks at physiological and psychological effects. And I don't know which category this falls into. But as you mentioned, Axelrod, who had encounters at Skinwalker Ranch, goes home and things start happening to he and his family in their home on the other side of the United States and continued to happen for a number of years. You know, people who had those experiences, intelligence officers, scientists who go to Skinwalker Ranch are there to investigate whatever is going on have had what has been called the hitchhiker effect. Is that psychological? Could it be, do you have any theories on whether it is a side effect of technology? You know, they see creatures that don't exist and which leave physical marks. And what they face is not just skepticism, but absolute scorn and ridicule. And I'm amazed that any of these stories ever surfaced to begin with. But can you elaborate on whether you think that falls into a psychological or physiological side effect of encountering some strange technology, or do you even have a theory? It's very hard to say, isn't it? And the stigma around it and the initial approach to it. I mean, when one hears a story about the hitchhiker effect, when one is relatively new to the topic, it goes into that, I can't compute, that cannot be right bucket. And it's only when you really understand the integrity and the reputation of the people who are experiencing this, extremely distinguished, very, very brave, courageous, battle-hardened intelligence community and military figures that you go, oh, this must be a must be a real thing. So we really don't know. There are an interesting set and a broad range of symptoms and health issues around Skinwalker, aren't there? And I say again, George, draw attention to your excellent book and make the point that arguably yours is the definitive book on UAP medicine, because there is no other and there is more about UAP medicine in that book than anything else. We've got Orbs, we've got autoimmune conditions, there's a whole series of things. And I think people should want to know Skinwalker is a great case study of a whole series of symptoms, which is our report shows are echoed to some extent in many other cases. And I think we want to know and we need to know because it could be somebody close to you, somebody close to me who's affected or a first responder at Virginia. It was a first responder in terms of Marco Ely Cheresey, who was affected. It's not only military and intelligence community people, civilians are affected. And I think we want to know what happens. I want to jump into a couple cases just because I think our audience, I was unfamiliar with some of the details. So I want to just kind of go through a reporting in your paper on Falcon Lake 1965. I just want our audience to know kind of what we're talking about. So a few lines here on 20th of May 1967, there was an industrial mechanic, Stefan Michalak, and he was prospecting in Canada. And he looked up and saw two cigar shaped UFOs with like a reddish glow hovering about 45 meters away. And then one descended landing in close proximity, taking on more of like a disc shape, which is really interesting goes from the cigar shape in the sky, all the way down when it's landing to more of a disc shape, the morphology, the changing of shape is interesting. So the other craft remained up in the air for a few minutes and then flew off. And he went closer to this like smooth metal ship had no seams. There was a bright doorway he saw in the craft, but he reached out and he touched the craft, which then later it melted the fingertips of his prospecting gloves. And shortly after that moment, he was struck in the chest by a blast of like, I guess, hot air or gas that pushed him backward. And I hear he was really in disarray after that and had burns as these famous pictures of him in the hospital with this grid like pattern of burns. So this is a different kind of interaction or negative health effect that I'm hearing. He got so close and there was heat involved. I'm glad you I'm glad that you you put that into your report. It's one of those iconic UAP encounters where someone had like physically been harmed by getting close to one of these machines. I don't know, what do you make of that? On December 12th, Disney Plus invites you to go behind the scenes with Taylor Swift in an exclusive six episode documentary series. I wanted to give something to the fans that they didn't expect. The only thing left is to close the book. The end of an era. And don't miss Taylor Swift, the era's tour, the final show featuring for the first time the tortured poets department streaming December 12th only on Disney Plus. CRM was supposed to improve customer relationships. Instead, it's shorthand for customer rage machine. Your CRM can't explain why a customer's package took five detours, reboot your inter-pes, and scream into a pillow. It's okay. On the ServiceNow AI platform, CRM stands for something better. AI agents don't just track issues, they resolve them, transforming the entire customer experience. So breathe in, and breathe out. Bad CRM was then. This is ServiceNow. Well, you've described that very well. I think one would write it very differently as a medical case report. One would focus less on the shape of the craft, and more one would talk about the symptoms, those being nausea, burns, obviously the grid-like pattern which resolved to the grid-like position over a few days. So it wasn't initially like that. Mitchell Ack had diarrhea, headaches, blackouts. So a doctor would look at that side of things and go, well, what can this be? And there is a paper referred to in the AUSAP report by a man called Muck Campbell from 1973, which goes a little bit further into some of the mechanisms. It's also even more definitive than the AUSAP report about the proportion of UAP-related injuries that can be attributed to radiofrequency electromagnetic radiation. And it even comes up with a rather bizarre mechanism for how the grid-like pattern could be formed from electromagnetic radiation. So all roads lead back in Muck Campbell's view to electromagnetic radiation. We go, there must be other things, wounds, infections, and the like, but the dominant mechanism of injury does seem to be between 400 MHz and 2 GHz, which is in the ultra-high frequency in the microwave range. That photo, Jeremy, it looks like a checkerboard, chessboard on the guy's chest. It's pretty famous all over the place. There was a case that AUSAP, you can continue asking them about the other ones you had on your list if you want. Go ahead. Yeah, so I mean, just because I'm not sure how familiar, you know, we all learn these cases over time, we've seen images of them, but Randall Shim, you said was close to your heart. That was 1980s. That was Airman 1st Class John Burroughs, and he was stationed at RF Woodridge. And so it was December of 1980. And that case was really kind of interesting because that is a documented UAP case by our own military. There's multiple witnesses from audio recordings on. And I think with John Burroughs, the thing was that he had what appeared to be a heart issue that was caused by that close encounter. And we actually had him in 2013 at the Citizen Hearing on Disclosure put on by Ruben Langdon, the unsung hero of the Citizen Hearing. And it was a big event. It was like 40 witnesses over almost a week. And we had him testify. And when Burroughs testified, there's great footage of that. The five Congress people and one senator that were up there were saying, this is ridiculous. How can you not get medical benefits when they've admitted that these events happened? Well, they wouldn't admit that he was there. I think that was the problem with his service. So we got everybody there to write up to John McCain and say, Hey, this is a veteran. He needs surgery. This is because of a UAP exposure. And sure enough, I remember the day it happened where he got authorized for full medical benefits and could get a life saving surgery. That was the one good physical practical thing that came out of the Citizen Hearing, which is a mock congressional hearing. And here we are after 50 years of a dry spell. We're probably on our third or fourth UFO hearing. We got one coming up. It's pretty exciting. But John Burroughs, from what I understand, he got his medical ability to get the surgery. And in fact, I believe this to be correct. I heard from his lawyer that during the surgery, right before the surgery, they got a call in the hospital, if I remember correctly, from a military doctor that knew exactly what they needed to do in this surgery, which signaled to us that there is a known problem with close proximity to UAP. And it seems to be electromagnetic effect based, but they told them exactly what to do to repair the heart injury. And I always found that fascinating. So is there anything I'm missing there on the the Randall Shim case? I just want our audience to understand what happened that day. I think the only thing I would add is that there were reports from here in the UK, including the Condine report, which acknowledged enhanced levels of radiation at Randall Shim in 1980, which supported John Burroughs case and led to the change of view and the fact that the Veterans Association would then support him. But I'd also add, and we include some academic research that supports the link between electromagnetic radiation effects and heart defects. And it's interesting to note too, isn't it that one of the various symptoms that Jake Barber talks about in his various interviews with Jesse Michaels and with Ross Coulthard is a heart valve defect. So it's going back to the methodology of the paper. It's a question of piecing together the little bits of evidence to find the major mechanisms of action. And then what follows on from that is is how you share that with doctors, including civilian doctors, so that they know what to do and that there are treatment pathways, including to specialists. I think your example, if needing to know how to treat the heart valve in surgery is a really good example. What if that was a civilian and a civilian doctor didn't know what to do? We're talking about various health effects from encounter cases where people get clued too close, not to beat a dead horse too much, cholera, back to cholera. It was widely believed by the public, including the UFO public, that deaths had been caused by these ships that came out of the river, came out of the sky, fired these beams of light and it killed people. That had been reported. I couldn't find any documentation that supported that during our trip to choleras and the NIDS or the Bass guys who went down. I think they didn't come to that conclusion either. Do you have any cases in this report or in future reports where you can attribute UFOs caused a death? The doctor in the cholera case suggests that two people died. That's in our report, but that's not what she said to the Brazilian authorities and one may wonder quite what reliance may be given to that. But that's the only example I think we can think of where there is a statement of death related to one of the UAP incidents. But there may well be others and that's too too many. So you have these different types of effects that people get. Some of them seem intentional. So you go to choleras and people are hit with like a fiber optic kind of thing that George investigated in his Netflix series and he heard the real story of that. So that's a real determined, like these objects are shooting things down onto people's chests and they're attaching. But there's the whole other thing which is just accidental. It seems like just people close to the triangles like Burroughs was where he had these negative effects. There are two separate things. It's like the cause is intentional and some and other ones they just seem like aftermath. One of the people who was generous with his time for the report was Whitley Streber. So we had an hour with him and he shared some private correspondence with his neurologist, particularly around the white matter around his chordate, Puterman, which was interesting and we've included that in the document. But I think he's a very thoughtful and balanced individual when it comes to the question of intent. He talks about some very intrusive procedures that he recalls from his experiences and he's very balanced as to whether they meant to do it or whether they didn't know what they were doing. And I think the question of intent is particularly difficult, isn't it, when we don't know who the entities or the organizations who may be carrying this out. Back to the point around the medical interpretation of this, which is whatever the patient needs, and that being the priority, it's not the cause, it's the effect and the consequence of that effect. Well, we're going to some detail around the neurological effects and the work of Dr. Gary Nolan, which is interesting, as you'll know, around the crossover between the patients and the cases who presented with Havana syndrome and the patients who presented with UAPs and of the hundred or so brain injuries that Dr. Nolan and his team looked at. Was it eight? Was it 12? Who were UAP encounters? It was a relatively small number and that white matter in the chordate putamen that Dr. Nolan studies produces is interesting too, isn't it, in terms of some of the wider work that's going on around things like to slightly use euphemism, intuition, human potential and the like. And we're very clear in the report the areas that we don't cover. So we explicitly exclude Havana syndrome. That's not an area we want to look into. We explicitly exclude issues around consciousness. And I think it's good to be clear about that. And we also exclude some of the aspects around human potential and the telepathy tapes. But we suspect that these issues will converge. And in a book on UAP medicine in 2040, who knows what will be in that? Hopefully there will be such a thing and UAP medicine will be taught at medical school. And as Jack Vallet says in his forward, at the moment, there is no job description as a UAP symptoms and complications specialist. We hope there will be specialist roles in the various health systems for people who are particularly knowledgeable about UAP injuries, UAP medicine and UAP treatment. This episode is brought to you by Focus Features. Would you let AI pilot your plane? Raise your child. Decide your future. On March 27th, Focus Features presents the AI doc or How I Became an Apocalypse. Critics and audience at the Sundance and Southwest Film Festival call it the most urgent movie of our time. The AI doc or How I Became an Apocalypse rated PG-13 only in theaters March 27th. This episode is brought to you by Indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed sponsor jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate to see. According to Indeed data, sponsor jobs have four times more applicants than non-sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a $75 Sponsored Job Credit at Indeed.com slash podcast. Terms and conditions apply. I have one more question for our guest, Jeremy, and then you could take it away wherever you want to go. But, you know, Jeremy asked you in the beginning, John, how you got started. We heard the win. It was 2023. But I want to go back to the why. I mean, you're a physicist. You do civil engineering projects. That doesn't normally lead to studying the health effects of people who encounter UFOs. Was there an event? Did you have a personal event or a series of articles? What got you down this road? So the personal dynamic is not being an experience there. I was very moved by the talk by Paul Sinclair, which I've already talked about. And I think it's a horrendous thing that the stigma exists around this topic so much. We people go and lie to their doctors. That is a real a real dynamic. My personal introduction was I do a certain amount of work in the nuclear industry. And I was intrigued as to how the objects knew where the nuclear facilities were. Because if, as conventional physicists are supposed to believe it's all swamp gas, ball lightning, to planet Venus, how do they know where the nuclear facilities are? Because that sounds like intelligent control. And what I found was not that that was the interesting thing. But when I tried to share that with friends, colleagues, other physicists, you get that look, John, you've gone all conspiracy theory on us. And this stigma and shame around the topic is horrendous. Yingling and Yingling, in a paper from last summer, August 2024, report that 69% of university academics are fearful of carrying out any research related to UABs because they're worried about ridicule and shame. So the research doesn't happen. And and hidden was set up initially to try and encourage better conversations, to roll back on the stigma and the shame. So you can have the conversation when you need it with your friends, with your family, and if you need to with your doctor. And our initial aspirations were quite low. And if we could help a few people, that would be great. I think we've done rather more than that. We're creating an impact. We're getting health in UAPs, right up the agenda. And unhidden's mission can be summarized in two simple words, which is people matter. And too often, that's neglected in and around the UAP topic. Thank you so much. I appreciated reading your paper. I really suggest that everybody get their hands on it. We'll put a link in the shows so people can read it. And I think reading the DIA version, and then reading kind of how you've moved the ball forward with your organization, I think that's a really nice comparison of people should read both. I also encourage people to read the the what is it the ODNI report from, you know, just basically about the preliminary summary on UAP and the importance of safety. Anyway, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I look forward to seeing your organization puts out as your third pillar. Thank you, John. Thank you very much. We'll be talking to you soon. Bye bye. That's a great report. You're right. We should share that with the public. People should read this. And I hope members of Congress read it before next week because there's a there's a big date on the on the calendar, right? That's right. And one week from today, there's going to be a new UFO hearing. And there's no formal announcement that has been made out of all the people that were brought to them. But I know that a number of people have gone through the process successfully, meaning we'll see if there's an announcement made prior. But yeah, I'm looking forward to it. We should probably be there. Oh, we'll definitely be there. All right, Jeremy. Talk to you soon. All right. Thanks, George.
