Stephen Fishbach: The Truth About Reality TV (It’s Real, But Not What You Think) | Ep. 320 with Stephen Fishbach Best Selling Author of Escape!

Stephen, I have to laugh, but I don't want to laugh, Stephen. So I'm excited to have you on today. One, because you're a very fun individual. And I think fun people make the best guess, because then I can be myself around you. But Stephen Fish back, I have so many questions, because my wife has gotten me addicted to watching reality TV. And every time I watch, I'm like, I need to bring on someone who can answer these questions. So I think it'd be great to have an understanding around reality TV. What type of person goes on a reality TV show? Yeah, that's a great question. And I think there's probably, you know, the reality TV that I've been on, which is jungle reality television, I feel like is its own kind of subgenre of reality TV. And I will say that I think people would be surprised at the type of people who go on those shows like Survivor or Naked and Afraid or Alone. My experience is that the people who go on these shows are not the kind of vapid fame whores. Can I say fame whores that society cast them on as? You know, the people who go on these shows are people who are sincerely looking to kind of have some kind of confrontation with the wilderness. They're looking to find themselves, you know, they're looking to step outside of their boring, normal lives, even if they're not boring. You know, I think we think of them as boring, just like, you know, at a desk, you know, in a routine and do something different where they're going to like get to the bottom of who they are. And the fact that that's happening in the context of a reality television show, which is sort of this ridiculous, you know, disposable cultural product, I think is really fascinating. And that's actually sort of what my book is about escape, you know, is that these people are going onto these shows looking for some kind of like transcendent confrontation with the jungle. And they're also, you know, doing the ridiculous obstacle course and they're in a hamster wheel, you know, running down the beach. So is it real or is it scripted? Oh, it's real. I mean, it's very real. And of course, you know, again, like the book talks about producers and the way sort of they nudge you in a certain direction. I mean, what I think is really interesting about reality producers is that they are taking people's real lives and turning them into a three act story. You know, I got a powerful three act story, a good three act story. Like it has to be good or these shows wouldn't be on the air. It has to be fulfilling or like they wouldn't be renewed season after season. Um, so like, that's kind of amazing, you know, like you're in this chaotic environment, the jungle, or I guess a real house for a real house person. Um, and you know, all this chaos is happening around you. And like, there are these people whose job it is to like distill that into like a structure story arc. That's kind of amazing. Wow. So they are really, I mean, they have to be storytellers to be able to create a story. what do you think goes into having or at least with your experience i know your working experience your experience on reality tv and talking to other people what makes an amazing producer yeah i think it is that sense of what is a good scene i mean i interview of course when i was on reality tv i interacted with a lot of producers but you know there it's sort of you know you're you're sitting across from them in an interview you're not like getting into their heads um they're asking they're getting into your head. But when I was writing this book, I interviewed a lot of producers and they would talk about like knowing where a scene starts or a scene ends. And that was kind of crazy to me because I was, I was thinking like, this is my life. Like I'm interacting with these people. I'm playing this game, but they're thinking of like, even just an interaction at the camp as like, here's the scene. Here's where the opening is. Here's the stinger, you know? So they're really viewing it all in the terms of how can I sort of digest this and turn it into, into story. It really is like people who are excellent storytellers and want to kind of craft a neat story out of the chaos of real life. Talk about a job I never even thought. Like, I want to be a producer of a reality TV show. But that is fascinating. It sounds like they are really curating things more than what we think. We think it's like just things just happenstance. Like, it's just reality. Like, we don't know what's going to happen. But they are really curating and thinking about what should happen or shouldn't. I'm fascinating with dating shows. I watched Love is Blind recently on Netflix, and I couldn't help think like, are these people really in it for this? But then I also see them on like 10 other dating shows. And I wonder how much of those are like chasing fame versus like the survivor people who really want to find themselves. Yeah, I do think you're right that there are a lot of people who go on some of the dating shows, especially, you know, and some competition reality shows looking for the next show, being very conscious of how can I make a big enough performance on this show to justify being on house of villains or the traitors, you know, and, and certainly I think that's happened in the last few years. I remember even watching people on survivor maybe five or six years ago. And I noticed that they were memeing, you know, they were doing little actions that were meant to be, you know, gift out and spread on X, you know, or Facebook. And I was just, you know, when I first went on, I was not aware of that at all. You know, the cliche that you sort of forget about the cameras was very true for me, but I feel like the contestants now are very aware of the cameras and there are many of them or some of them anyway are really performing. This reminds me of thinking back to like the first reality show that I remember, I think had to have been like the real world with MTV. Yeah. What was like the first reality show that you watched that even got you thinking about this could be something or maybe even something that you just stood out in your mind from before yeah i mean i certainly watched the real world but of course i along with fully half of america at the time watched that first season of survivor and was just blown away by it i was definitely part of those water cooler conversations back when there were water coolers in offices uh back when people went into offices you know before but um you know i was i thought Richard Hatch was incredible. This, you know, amazing villain, you know, I was rooting for, for him to win. And, you know, I, the culture was outraged at him because he was, you know, voting out the nice people. Uh, but I, I actually was recruited to be on survivor. I was not, I did not apply some, um, I knew someone in casting who messaged me on Facebook in 2008 and said, Hey, do you want to be on survivor? Let's make it happen. And I literally did not know the show is still on the air. You know they cast in terms of archetypes and they certainly did that more at the time You know they had the hot alpha male which obviously i was no they had you know either they cast their nerd character you know they cast their you know their beach beauty character and they had cast their season and they had already had a nerd character but they decided he wasn't nerdy enough and my friend said oh i know a real nerd if you want a real true nerd i've got the nerd for you and that's why she emailed me as though either like from Yale to survivor oh yeah I mean totally that was all you know part of the storyline um I you know I had glass my glasses were not as thick back then as they are now but I still did have glasses which really distinguished me at least you still got hair because you could be like I had hair back then I know that feeling so going back to survivor because I remember the last time I think I remember survivor was when they're in the Philippines yeah and great season I love that season I also just like the Philippines in general but what is so you go on to this show how weird is it like what's the feeling like you're on the you're on a show it's like life there's cameras everywhere but like things have to happen like what's that experience like yeah that's a great question i love games and i also kind of like immersive experiences you know you i remember i that's a really good question you know the first part of it is very kind of structured you know you you sit at the this camp they take you to to acclimate for a week while you do your pregame press. You're not allowed to talk. And then at some point they let you go. And, you know, they're like, okay, game's on. And it's incredible, this feeling of freedom. Like I could go anywhere. I could literally walk anywhere. I'm in the Brazilian highlands. It was the Serato. I was, but I mean, I mean like the Brazilian, you know, out outdoors, I could walk anywhere. I could do anything. I could talk to anyone. I could not talk to anyone, you know, who I decide to vote out is entirely based on my decisions and who I decide to vote for at the end is also just like I get to choose. I mean, just that freedom within the context of a game was mind boggling to me. It was truly so exciting, you know, just like literally the sense of like total, you can do anything and someone with a camera is going to follow you and it's going to be on television. I find a lot of reality, I mean, especially like these shows, which I love these shows. It's like a study of human behavior. You know, it's like, what would humans do? And it reminds me of like Lord of the Flies. Like if you put these people on this island and you know, there's no real leadership and this, and then you have something gold at the end, like what's going to happen to humans? What do you think, or what did you see at Survivor? And then just in general with reality TV, do you find this is like, really, are there like anthropologists like studying us or maybe aliens? I mean, they should be. It's, you know, I mean, I'm assuming the answer is yes. You know, yes, the aliens are studying us and probably watching reality TV. It's got to be a really easy way to study us because, you know, the signals are out there, the TV signals. So they can just kind of, you know, beam it up. That's got to be pretty straightforward. What's interesting is how each group does kind of create its own mores. You know, every group sort of creates its own kind of dynamic of what they value. You know, the other thing that was interesting, I thought, was the way that when you have to vote someone out, the group would always kind of like put all of the blame for the chaos around them on that one person. You know, they would always say like, oh, this person is playing too hard. This person is backstabbing. This person is lying. And then you vote them out and you get to feel good about yourself for a day. You know, like we got rid of the troublemaker. But then, of course, the game is what's forcing you to vote people out and lie and backstab. So suddenly you have to do it again. And it was a sense of we could maintain our own sense of moral integrity by putting all of our sins. It was literally like that sort of idea of a sacrificial goat where you're putting all the sins on this one person and voting them out and getting to feel good about yourself again. I imagine when something becomes your life, it could be devastating when it's taken away. What was the feeling when you got voted off? Yeah. I mean, well, I was really tired and hungry. So immediately I was like, oh, I get to sleep and eat. That's nice. Yeah, it is devastating. You're right. And, you know, you really are so immersed in this game and you're so focused on this prize, you know, for weeks, you know, and there's a long weeks because like literally you've got nothing to do to distract yourself. So they're very long weeks. So you're right. Like you are, there's like a real trauma that happens when you are voted out, you know, you kind of set your dreams and your goals on this, like one object, and then it's taken from you. And I have to also say, it's also really hard to vote somebody else out because you know that they, and in many ways I found that actually harder than voting myself out or that myself can be voted out because you know what their dreams are. You know, someone's out there, you know, competing to like give their money to their dad who's worked his whole life or like they're going to like set up their kids with a college education fund. And, you know, you're like, oh, I'm voting you out, taking all your dreams from you, you know, sending your family back to where they started from. You know, that's really hard. And like lying to someone to do that, you know, like betraying people. You know, most of us don't betray people in our day to day lives. And It's actually not a good feeling. I can't help but laugh because I'm thinking like if I was to go on a show, I just need to make up an outrageous story, whether it's true or not, maybe not true. So people will then feel bad to not. Maybe that's part of the strategy. Obviously, you were a fan favorite. You know, tens of millions and millions of people voted you to go back on the survivor. Did you hesitate? Like, why do I want to do this again? or what was your thought? Like, maybe this will have a positive impact on my life. Yeah, I did. I mean, honestly, I did not initially want to do it again because I, you know, for that reason that it was so emotionally challenging to betray people, lie to people. I was really affected by it my first time and I did not plan to do it again. The producers called me and said, basically, this is your last chance. Like, if you're going to go again, this is the one, this is your opportunity. and passing up something like that felt, you know, it felt reckless. Like, you know, this is something, this is a dream that so many thousands of people have, you know, thousands and thousands of people apply and it's being gifted to me. So, you know, why not go for that adventure one more time? And the fact that it was a fan vote made it cool. You know, I kind of thought like, okay, like that's cool to be voted in by the fans. So if that happens and I do get chosen, like that would be a cool thing to write on my resume, you know, maybe 15 years from now, someone will be, you know, calling me a fan favorite. I mean, here we are. That was literally yeah that was 15 years ago right Like you said that or 16 years ago well like first there was probably that one was probably like 10 years 10 or 11 years ago 2015 I think but and then you wrote the book so you obviously the great thing I love about your story too is not only were you like bachelor of the year that's I'm still fascinated by that yeah but you're also you leveraged it because I think what happens a lot of times from what I've seen just following media for many years and studying media stuff is a lot of times these people don't leverage it there on after. Maybe they just want to try and be an actor, but we know most people will not continue to be an actor. You have really capitalized and leveraged it to write multiple books, best-selling books, highly awarded. You've done many other things. How did you leverage it? in case someone here is going on to a show tomorrow and they need to know what happens afterwards. Yeah. I mean, truth be told, I always wanted to be a writer first. And in many ways, you know, my, my fear going on reality television the first time was that I would become reduced to being the reality TV guy. And like that would become the whole part of my identity, which it absolutely has. Um, but you know, so I, my choice to write a book about reality television and have that be sort of my debut novel was, I think, strategic, you know, and I think that maybe gets to your question. Initially, I was going to write a book of short stories to kind of prove my literary bona fides. But an agent said to me that that was a really stupid choice that, you know, I should really more think, you know, what you should write the book about the reality TV show first, because that's what your audience cares about. Like, that's what the people who know you care about. And that's kind of your opportunity to sort of bridge your existing audience into maybe a more literary audience, you know, and then kind of hopefully take some of those people with you, you know, hopefully when my next book comes out, and it's not about reality television, you know, I've established that I can write a good book. And hopefully, some of the people who were interested in my thoughts about reality TV will come with me to over there as well. But you know, I think a lot of it is just always observing, you know, and at least certainly for a writer, you know, it's always just kind of like paying attention to the unique world that only you have access to. And I like, for me, that was, that was this reality TV world for my time as a contestant, from my time working for the TV networks. I've worked for nonfiction producers trade group. So I've done a lot. I've like seen every aspect of this world. And I think for anyone kind of looking to find what their next step is, I think, you know, it would be just to like observe the thing that only you know about. Hey, I just, I just launched a book myself like a month and a a half ago. And I have to say, hats off to anyone who has written a book. It was like years and years. I thought it was going to come out in like a month after I started writing. But like two and a half years later, it finally came out. So people don't understand how not only how hard the process or how long it takes, but the process I wanted to quit and cancel. But the publisher's like, you signed an agreement. You have to continue writing this book. You can't stop. So hats off to you, I get just how challenging it is in your book, or maybe even that not in the book. Was there a really wow story after interviewing these people that you heard that's really stuck out from, Oh, that's interesting from, um, interviews. I mean, one story I, I heard, you know, that does sort of make its way in the book and it's not a spoiler, but it's sort of, it just kind of, cause it's sort of an aside as someone mentions in the book is from a wilderness this show not not survivor that where the producer um wanted to film two of their survivalists hunting a beaver because the its caster sack has like vanilla flavoring so they thought that would be kind of a cool twist on the survivalist genre but they couldn't find a live beaver to hunt anywhere so like a pa went and brought a frozen beaver that they then put into a stream so that you couldn't tell that it was frozen and you know and then shot from a distance the hunters kind of like make believe hunting this frozen beaver in the stream um that really stuck with me as sort of a very strange facet of this reality world and i think captures you know some of these shows are a little staged you know it's not all 100 as you may be as it may be displayed on television it reminds me of these uh real estate shows and i wonder if they're really like selling the real estate or someone really buying the right i always wonder like i'm like is this really any like potential commission i'm like i don't know are they really is this real like i can't i can't tell if some things are real or not real so i'm glad you said that so now if i see a beaver on a show specifically yeah well and there was a big lawsuit where a survivalist alleged that um their producer like brought in like a rattlesnake for them to encounter you know like basically the rattlesnake like you know there's a tense scene in the show a different show where there was you know they they come on a rattlesnake and like what do they do but like they brought the rattlesnake in a box you know and then presumably like shot the scene and then like you know ship the rattlesnake off off again to go to go home better than an anaconda i think i guess that's right i think although i don't know i'm not sure i'm you see an anaconda when you were there i did see an anaconda that's crazy that you asked that i did there was i mean from a long long distance i was um there was a time where i saw basically they i think they captured or or they released you know again like they they film like b-roll footage to include in the show b-roll is sort of the little like nature shots that the survivor will have um and they did in fact shoot one and i actually happened to like witness from a distance that it being um wrangled i guess i would not want to come in contact with that i was far away there's a guy who just a documentary about living in the amazon i forget his name and the stuff that he i've watched on his youtube channel around the things that he has to he likes lived there for 20 years trying to help i'm like i would never want to put myself was there a scary moment besides the anaconda from miles away was there a scary experience that you had? Yeah, there was, it was actually, it was very, it was also snake-based. A lot of the scary experiences were snake-related. But there was one time when I was, you know, one of the things I had to do was go to Exile Island, basically where I was all by myself on this sort of remote sand dune. You know, and there was a producer, but he was far away and I couldn't even really see him most of the time. And it truly felt like I was alone. And at some point, the producer and came down to inform me that one of the most dangerous snakes in the world where they just one nearby and I should stay close by the fire because the snake would probably not come by the fire And I said, you know, maybe we move me. Maybe we medevac or fly this person away so that he's not in the terrain of the most dangerous snake in the world. And they're like, no, you're probably fine. You're probably going to be fine. Just stay away from any snakes. I was like, okay, that's great. So if I make it through the night, I'll be all right. One time our son bought a snake and tried to like have a snake and like, we wouldn't find the snake, but I saw like this big box of the cage of a snake thing. I'm like, so we made him return the snake the next day. I'm like, wow, he went and like went rogue and bought us. He went rogue and bought a snake and like thought we wouldn't know that. Like, how would you not know we're going to find the snake? So next day he had to return the snake, but I was bit by a friend snake who had, he had a snake as a pet when I was younger and I had to watch him. Pythons. I had to watch him feed the snakes. and it was very disturbing watching him as it would grow and like the feeding then it had to be alive it was like frozen then it was alive and then it bit me and I was like I don't want to come in contact with snakes uh I oh I'm really wondering too about this reality like the ones you did how do you eat like do you have do they teach you survivor skills before you go like like what if you don't eat then what happened I mean I lost 35 pounds my first season so that's what happens. You know, they sort of provide, I mean, um, on my first season, we got sort of a sustenance level of rice and beans, but my group, my tribe did not even get like, you know, much of that. So we were literally having like a spoonful of rice a day. Um, and it was really tough on my body, which is one of the reasons I didn't want to go back, but you know, you do get a survivor school, but the day, you know, you get one, one day where they kind of show you what the various, uh you know plants are that are available you know that that kind of thing uh you know usually now that it's always on an island there's typically coconuts there's typically shellfish so there's there's like food that like you can exist on but not you know not fill your belly well i gotta say i stopped working out a couple years ago on a regular basis and i have also yet to get my muscle back so i can 42 years old i don't know what this is hard it's hard steven you know yeah it's hard i've got frail joints you know i'm always getting injured it's tough oh my god steven like i'm so afraid that's why i don't do anything because i'm like if i get injured i'm gonna be so upset like i don't want to go bungee jump it's not worth the risk in my that's why i'm not on reality TV unless it's like a chess playing reality TV or something, but I'm just too afraid. I don't think I can handle it, but I love escape exclamation mark. You got to say that you have two versions of the book behind you because I know it's out in different countries. Tell me about that. Yeah. About the book or about it being out in different countries? Both. Okay. So the book is about a has been mid forties reality TV contestant who goes back on a jungle reality show kind of looking to reclaim his past glory. You know, he was the winner. He was like the alpha guy, his first season out. And now he's kind of stuck in his numb real life and really wants to recapture that. And while there, he faces off against a reality TV producer, you know, one of these expert storytellers whose whole job is to turn real life into, you know, a neat, you know, a neat little bow. And, you know, there's this real struggle for who gets to control the story. So I do try to capture like all the texture of what reality TV is real like, really like, you know, hopefully, you know, for fans of the genre, showing them new aspects of it. But I think that hopefully this relates or, you know, is moving to people who are even not reality TV fans, because I think it deals with the subject that everyone is going through right now in our social media dominated age, where we are all kind of trying to project this image of ourselves. We are all trying to control our own story. And this question of like, what happens when you lose control of your own story, I think is really, you know, feels like very dear to all of us. What's the, what is it like when you, cause I've always wanted to write a fiction book, but about nonfiction experiences I've had or other people. What is that like when you're writing a fiction book? It's almost like a fiction, nonfiction. Yeah. I mean, this is fiction. I will say like, this is not based on survivor. You know, I really did interview producers and contestants from like dozens of other shows. But I think probably most fiction books have like a healthy, a healthy amount of like nonfiction, you know, animating them. You know, it's the real texture of your life. It's like the thoughts you've had, the experiences you've had. They kind of like bring, you know, whatever fictional plot to life. So I feel like it's probably true of all fiction. Well, Stephen Fishback, but it's spelled B-A-C-H. steven fish poser like fishbach but it's fishback.com where else can they get the book uh anywhere any online retailer you know um go into your local bookstore it should be there um you know if it's not asked for it because then maybe they'll order more copies that'd be great uh but yeah hopefully it's everywhere my last question you went into the bookstore and you saw your book what came over you that was awesome i mean it was truly it was cool because i too i was i was with my daughter and that was really awesome for her. Like, you know, we of course like read a lot, you know, as I read to her all the time. So for her to see that like I wrote a book and it was on the shelf in the bookstore where she buys her books, I think was kind of magical for both of us. Every time you go through a bookstore, because I do this, do you go in there and look for your book and take a picture? Oh yeah, of course. I mean, it's only been out for three weeks and it's still very new to me. So I 100% I'm looking for my book and yeah, it's been awesome. I do the same thing. I think my wife's, because my wife and I wrote the book together, but she's not like she wasn't that excited to write it. So for me, every time we walk to a bookstore and I do the same thing, I'm like, hey, do you have this book? And they're like, yes or no. I'm like, you don't have the book. I think you should order the book. Yeah. There's demand. Exactly. I'm like, you're really passionate about this book. Like, yeah, I'm like, I'm very passionate about this book. I think you should order it. But I love the escape with an exclamation mark, a not a fiction book with amazingly possibly nonfiction ish added in there. I love that. Uh, Steve, this has been great. You're, you're one of the, the, probably one of the most fun guests I've had. And it's something I can't stop thinking about reality TV. It's weird. And I've been so excited to have you on. So thank you. What a great compliment. Thank you. This has been the super fun interview. Thank you for having me. If you liked the show, please take a moment to rate review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.