This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. This is The New Yorker Radio Hour, I'm David Remnik. Demi Moore was one of the biggest stars of the 80s and 90s. And for a time, she was the highest paid actress in Hollywood. And since she re-emerges a lead in the 2024 film The Substance, Demi Moore has been very busy. She's got a major role in the new season of Taylor Sheridan's Landman. And she stars in two widely anticipated films that are coming out this year. First, there's a science fiction film directed by Goots Riley. And then there's Strange Arrivals, where she plays a role alongside Coleman Domingo. And it's about a couple who claim to have been abducted by aliens. Sounds pretty good. Demi Moore's memoir Inside Out came out a few years ago, and this fall at the New Yorker Festival. She sat down to talk with Staff Rider, Gia Tolentino. You had quite young parents, you moved around a ton. You were required to grow up very quickly. And you write in the memoir that all the adapting that you had to do, as you moved from place to place, was part of perhaps early training to become an actor. Can you just talk about that? Yeah, I mean, so I was in roughly never less than two schools a year. So we were always moving, and I became quite excellent at loading a U-Haul. But one of the things when you don't know any different is that you, there's two aspects to that. Yes, I became very adaptable to being in a new environment, new schools, new friends. And on the plus side, I also learned kind of the positive side of not clinging to attachment. And the downside of that is that it made it harder to know how to really nurture friendships. But that ability to be adaptable lends itself very much to what the nature of being an actor is, because that is entirely what we're asked and required to do. Not just in our roles, but with each project, it's kind of like many marriages, many families that you're stepping into, and each is slightly different. And you have to find a way of holding on to your own center as you are in entirely new settings, environments, and with different people. When you were, did you feel when you were little that you, did you have a sense of what that center was, or did it take longer to realize that you had to hold on to? I think the thing is, is when you're always trying to just, I became very quick at assessing what the situation is, who's who, who's popular, who's not. And the effort became how to fit in. But in doing so, sometimes I didn't always have a sense of myself at all. I think that that's something that evolved much more as I matured. And in truth, as I made a clearer decision about what I'd path I wanted to take, by the way, that was still at only 15 years old. But no, I don't, I think, I actually didn't know like, well, what do I like? What do I like? Because I was so always working towards just fitting in and belonging. And then, right, so you started acting as a teenager, and you were, you know, as they say, you were booked and busy. And you were also, you know, you were quite young when you had children too. You were kind of in the thick of it in terms of your career. I was, I don't think that any one of us watching a few good men could really have had any idea that you began rehearsing for that movie. I mean, mere weeks after having your second child, right? Yeah, she was a month old when we started rehearsing. And all I could think about is that I was going to be in a military uniform. Well, you're writing about this and or you started, you were in a lot of time. Oh, I had a audition, when I auditioned for a few good men, I was almost eight months pregnant, which was quite awkward reading those lines with Tom Cruise with this gigantic belly. I think Tom was quite embarrassed. I actually felt okay about it. I was moving around all right, but I could tell he felt that it was a bit awkward. Well, it's, I mean, it's kind of amazing. Like you, you really, you pushed yourself to, you know, like on, there was an unbelievable amount of discipline and play, an unbelievable amount of just like will and effort. There was another part of the memory you were writing about when you were filming a decent proposal shooting days were 4 a.m. to 4 p.m. So you'd get up at 1.30 a.m. start training by 2. Do a full day shoot. You'd get off. Your kids would still be up. Yep. Hang out with them. You know, it's, and I'm kind of wondering like, what is that time period feel like to you now? At that moment, none of my peers were having children. And I think that there was still a bit of a feeling that you had to choose, you had to choose a career or being a mother. And it's one of the many things for me that I just felt like that, that didn't make sense and so I challenged that to say, you know, why not? Why can't you have both? But with that, I think came a lot of pressure I put on myself to an asense prove that it was possible. And it was a lot. I look back at that time now and I go, what the fuck was I thinking? I mean, and what was I even trying to prove? But it wasn't as supported as it is today, you know, to be breastfeeding and then block it and then rehearsing a scene. Well, I was wondering, let's just go to the first clip from the movie that you were getting up at 1.30 to train for from a decent proposal. You helped me to lie, you want me to say he's awful. So you know what? I'm going to tell you he's awful and you won't believe me. How can I win? I'm just throwing the truth, David. It was sex, David. Just sex, not love, just sex. Almost a good sex. Don't do this, David. Can you just tell me that, David? Is he good? What are you hesitating for? Just tell me, was he good? Was he good? Was he good? Yes. Watching you watch it, the lines are still in your head. I mean, I haven't seen it in such a long time that they were coming. Your mouth was making the... Like, I mean, it's it's lodged, right? I mean, is it like that for a lot of stuff or just these really pivotal scenes in your movies? I don't know. I don't know. I think I was maybe wondering what was going to be coming out of my mouth. But it's sometimes what's nice at this point in my life is that I actually have the ability to look back and have more appreciation. Yeah. Versus credit. I was like, yeah, that was pretty damn good. Versus remembering being in it. How critical. I was. How much I just dissected and tore apart all that wasn't versus today where I can really appreciate all that is. And so it's really nice. And I appreciate being able to like see that. And I love Woody so much. He's so good. Although doing it, I have to say, you know, I met Woody because he was good friends with Bruce. And so doing the scenes with him, which obviously we have quite a few love scenes, was literally like having to do it with my brother, which was a little bit awkward. Well, I wondered, you know, I wonder if you can talk about filming it. This scene is probably the most vulnerable moment for Diana, your character in the whole movie, despite the fact that in decent proposal is engineered around what's ostensibly this other moment of vulnerability. This, you know, if you haven't seen it, the, you know, the billionaire played by Robert Redford, offers her a million dollars for a single night. And we don't see that moment like very wisely. It's, it's cut out. But tell it, like tell, tell us about filming that scene. I mean, the one particular with with Redford. No, sorry. This one. Yeah. I mean, I think you know, this was such an interesting film in terms of the provocative nature, the deep question that it was bringing forward, which is, is there a price for everything? Does everyone have a price? And also, like, what, what we will do to survive, like, and in this case, it's, you know, the, the, the pain of making a choice and having to live with the consequences is what that scene is really all about. And the unforeseen consequences of doing something that's for the higher good and not really knowing the depth of loss that could be at stake. Yeah, but you know, what's also it is, it is profoundly provocative movie, especially, you know, I went back and re-read all the coverage, but there was something about it that was, you know, just like you were saying, so much has changed in terms of what women who are in the middle of their careers and having young children, what they can sort of demand and expect and sort of, it's quite different watching, like, all of the reviews are like, you know, this scandalous, you know, this unspeakable, like, but it's like, you know, David and Diana, they talk about what happened in Vegas, like, it's this mortal sin, right? The sin that they committed together, but that also within kind of the sexual morality, the time kind of has to sit upon your character. Like, it's, it's made, it's, it's a thing they did together, but somehow she is shamed for it. Yeah. And I'm also like, I mean, if you built a contemporary movie around this choice, like, I mean, it is my sense that many more people, men and women would have offered a million dollars to spend a night with Robert Redford, which is, you know, like, it's a women, like does it feel less, like it carries the provocation that it really did at the time, but is it, is it funny to kind of think about it now? I mean, it is interesting, but I think at the core, at the core of our humaneness, like, while there are aspects of, you know, that the, what's a question may have changed in terms of our morality. I think in terms of the core of our humaneness, the idea that you break a certain bond of being chosen, which is what's really occurring is that we have two people who've chosen each other and by breaking that bond, by her going outside for them, it's, it's, it's, it's like a glass breaking that can never quite be put back together. And I don't know if that's any different today than it was then. Totally. This is, do you have a favorite character that I've played? Yeah. I have a partial attachment to GI Jane because there was something in that for me that really addressed so many bigger questions at play in women's roles and, and, and particularly, you know, just this idea of there, if, if there is someone who is skilled and has the desire, why wouldn't we want them in that? Why is gender even a question? But just on a personal level, it was really transformative for me. To me more, speaking with the New Yorkers, geotolentino, more in a moment. Ever open up your podcast apps, scroll forever, and still not know what to listen to? And there are millions of podcasts and most of them, they just don't grab you. That's why I created something you should know. Every episode is built around surprising, useful, and fascinating ideas. We're consistently ranked in Apple's top 200 with thousands of five star reviews. Try one episode of something you should know right here on the platform you're listening on right now. I'm interested in, you know, these commonalities. I've had such a fun time rewatching my way through your filmography and, you know, you are always playing tough, incredibly capable women who are in the middle of some battle between the complex reality that this woman lives in and the larger world's idea of how she should be. I mean, it's maybe not every single role, but it's, you know, it's G.I.J. and the substance, like, and the battles often center on the body, right? Like, high stakes have been placed on your character's bodies in many of your movies, whether it's the financial salvation of the household, like in decent proposal or properties, you know, or the entry of women into combat or, you know, in the substance, decades of box office, millions of dollars have been riding on Elizabeth Sparkle and, yeah, disclosure, like, there are many movies of yours that engage these ideas. And I was wondering if you ever remember a moment of sort of seeing these commonalities and trying to, like, at what point did you realize that you were playing these characters that were? I mean, I think so often, well, when I really feel like roles choose you as much as you choose them, and I do think you're 100% right that there is a thread that goes through, even if it's an unconscious one. And I think mine tend to also challenge the status quo. And there is a certain physicality, and I think that a lot of that was in an effort also for me to overcome some of my own issues around my body, and my own discomfort in my own body. And, you know, with particularly the ones that were so physical, like GI Jane, where I really knew that my body was a real pivotal part of the character, it pushed me to have to, in a sense, face myself and face that discomfort. And you wrote in the memoir that this was the film that you were most proud of, because it was the hardest for you to make, and every way, emotionally, physically, mentally. And I wonder if you can tell us about just, you know, playing this character, the training. I think, like, you did it all. You outlasted Sam Rockwell. Yeah. You dropped out because of the water shoots or whatever. And you wrote that they called you Jordan, your character's in the whole time. And by the end, you know, they were yelling at the guys, are you going to let yourself get beaten by some mother of three? Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, when I went down to do the training before we started filming, it was literally me and 40 guys. They like made it so that I really had to feel, like, in the movie. I had to feel, like, physically, emotionally, mentally, what the experience would be that you go through through the buds training. And I mean, even down to being freezing in the water and saying, oh, my God, I have to pee. And somebody's saying, well, let it go. And I hope it comes downstream. I'm like, wow, I am really in it. I am in in this. Well, I was rewatching the movie. I was struck by this other confrontation between you and Vigor Mortensen's character, this moment where he is haranging Jordan in the shower. He's really stride it. He's been in combat. Seems men couldn't get used to the sight of women blown open. They'd linger over the wounded females, often trying to save those wildies he couldn't be saved, often to the detriment of the mission. You're getting a Navy Cross, right? Can I ask what you got it for? Since it bears on this conversation, I got it for pulling a 240-pound man out of a burning tank. And the man tries to rescue another man. He's a hero, but when he tries to rescue a woman, he's just gone soft. Could you pull that man clear? Lieutenant, you couldn't even haul your own body weight out of the water today. Permission to get dressed, Master Chief? And it's an interesting decision that I love so much looking back. She's new. She's in the shower. It's this intimate and charged moment. The two of you are obviously incredibly hot, but it's not played like that. There's no, it's brusque, it's short. There's no charged. Like it's, there was, it's actual, it's not, it's brusque, it's quick. And I was, and I was, I was thinking about that and how, you know, kind of for even a movie of that time that's, that's unusual. It's an unusual decision to not have there be kind of a, like, a moment. And I was thinking about another bit of your memoir when you wrote, it's when you were writing about a few good men, you wrote, what I admired most about a few good men was the originality Aaron Sorkin and Rob Reiner showed by not having my character in Tom's get involved in anything romantic or even unprofessional. There was an expectation at that time on the part of studios and audience that if an attractive woman showed up on film, it was only a matter of time before you saw her in bed with a leading man or at least half naked. And then he said he wrote to an exec who had been lobbying hard for a sex scene. And he said, I'll never forget with the executive wrote back, which was, well, if Tom and Demi aren't going to sleep together, then why is Demi a woman? And in that time to be fair, like that, you know, it was really a big part of the dynamic that was at play. And so I really, I always really appreciated that they took us down for the integrity of the material because that, it wouldn't have ever been right. And it didn't need it. Yeah. It didn't need it. There's something different about the substance in that your characters have tended to be fearless more or less. I mean, they have their vulnerabilities, but they go through life like they do what needs to be done. Like they are just doing, like they are unbelievably competent. They don't, they don't have a breakdown and kind of, you know, the front they put on to the world basically. And your performances are all fearless. This film struck me a little different because Elizabeth is actually racked with fear and she, and she shows it. You said accepting your golden globe that a producer told you 30 years ago that you were a popcorn actress, meaning as you said, that I could make very successful films that make a lot of money, but I wasn't going to be recognized. You said, there came a moment where I thought that was it. Maybe I was complete and I had done what I was supposed to do. And, you know, and people, in the substance, you know, people reacted in a way that repudiated all of that so forcefully. Like people responding to your acting, your craft, like not your presence, not your star power, but really the particularity and the nuance of what you were doing. And I wondered if that changed the way that you, like, what does that do to your own process now? Like, if it changed the way either you look for and consider new roles, or if it made you think differently about the work that you had done in past decades. I mean, I think, you know, in my own growth, you know, what I've learned is how we relate to the issue is the issue. How I related to myself for a very long time was only that of what I wasn't. Everything that I hadn't done, what I, and I really didn't have a sense of my own value or appreciation. So if there's probably any thread of everything I've done, it's probably in finding that sense of value that I didn't get in the foundation of when I grew up that, and so I don't know. So how do I, so your question is, let me go back, is do I see myself differently now? The change the way you go after new roles now, I mean, no, it's still the same. For me, it's, you know, really looking to do stuff that still, you know, really pushes the envelope that pushes me to places. I need to do something enough that I'm willing to fail. So I think my only other thing I was going to share is that I realized today that, you know, there's a point in my early career where I had nothing to lose because I didn't have anything. And then I had a little bit of success where you then start to get afraid of losing that success. And sometimes that fear of losing creates a contraction and then you fear taking a risk. And so what I've always tried to do is keep pushing myself beyond that limit. Do you mean more spoke with the New Yorker Festival with Geo Tolentino? And she's starring in the new season of Taylor Sheridan's Landman. You can read Geo Tolentino at New Yorker.com, including her terrific profile of Jennifer Lawrence, which came out recently. You can also subscribe to The New Yorker There as well, New Yorker.com. I'm David Remnik, happy new year from all of us at The New Yorker Radio Hour. See you next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. 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