Charli XCX

Hi, my name is Charlie XX and I feel nervous about being kind of no-brains friend. Hey there, welcome to Conor of Brian Needs A Friend. joined as always by Sona Mochessian. You didn't change your last name when you got married. I didn't change it. No, it's a lot of paperwork. Yeah, and a lot of consonants. What? What's taxed last name? Is it Ticacian? No, it's not Ticacian. It's not Ticacian. I always think it's his first name plus Ezean. I know, but that's not how Arbyn and Hayes work. Yeah, it's a lot of letters that really shouldn't be next to each other. Like the V in the S. Oh, I know. It's an explosion at a Campbell Soup factory. Okay, who has an apostrophe in his last name? How awful is that? I'm here in my glass house. I'm firing stones. I thought I was safe and apparently I'm not. And Matt Gurley joining us as well. There's a fine name. Matt Gurley, none of your O apostrophe Brian or Mochessian. Ezean used to be Matt Gurley long, long ago. What? Matt Gurley. You were Matt Gurley? No, I'm told the last name, the same name. Oh, you got rid of the Matt? Well, I didn't personally. I've just heard long ago that it was Matt Gurley. Oh. Matt Gurley. You guys are looking at me like I did this time. So your name would be Matt Gurley. Matt Gurley. So your name would be Matt, Matt Gurley. I don't think possible to say. I would have think I would be Matt. Matt, Matt Gurley. Matt Gurley. Matt Gurley. Matt Gurley. You know what? They dropped it. I think they was Matt Gurley until you were born and you were born Matt. So they knew that they had to lose the Mac. Yeah. He was born with a high, my name is Matt on his chest. I was. You know, it's interesting that we're talking about birth and related matters because you are going to be taking a leave of absence for a while. And this is big news. What's going on? Well, I'm having a baby. Yeah. Yeah. Not my wife. I am. Yeah, you're doing it all yourself. So when I won't say ask when specifically, but this is going to happen soon. It's soon. Yeah. I mean, God only knows it may already have happened the way this seems to be going. Who knows? I mean, it's just got this feeling that it's coming early. So yeah, this is a girl. We're having another little girl. I'm amazing. It's amazing. Over the moon. I'm excited about this. Well, you know, I'm think I'm the first one to make this analogy. But to me, it just feels like, you know, you're going from one on one defense to zone. Is that something I just thought of? It implies that I understand sports in any way. Also, it implies that I've never heard a thousand people say that. Yeah. Well, you've had two kids. You obviously have two kids, but they came at once. Yeah. So you kind of won the lottery and getting it over. I did. I know a lot of people think twins is hard, but I think having a little kid and a baby and doing that all over again, that's harder. Yeah, because blood type. And it's already anticipating it. I mean, to at the same time, I can't even imagine that. I know. And one punch the other out first is that what happened. There was a brawl inside the womb. Oh, probably. Yeah. And then Mikey punched Charlie and he went flying out like the way Cowboys would fly out of a bar room. Yeah. There's a lot of brawl. So happy. Did you have a little door down there that went, the loo doors? The loo doors? The loo doors. Yeah. And punch and then. Oh, gosh. This is hot. And then we probably. And did you hear piano music? Bam, bam, bam. And then it was a punch. And he went flying out. Mikey punched Charlie. Charlie goes flying out. And then, wow, Mikey comes out himself and to finish the job and they just punched each other down the hallway in the hospital. That's how my birth happened. Well, sorry. Just can't get that image of the loo doors. It's just a giant. Because when I think it, you're talking about my vagina. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Do you mean your saloon door? Yeah. That's horrible. Yeah. You're the giant. Is spring loaded? Yeah. Oh, my God. Anyway, I just like the idea of saloon music coming out. Listen. So I had a C section. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, stomach is a saloon door. Yeah. Oh, God. No, no, that's different. That's different. That's a seller door, you know. Come here. You leave. Head looks around. Caesar tornado coming. Not yet. Goes back in again. Oh, my God. Yeah. Get in here, total hurry. Hurry. So anyway, oh, my God. Vaginas are saloon doors. Yeah. She sections are, of course, Kansas. Wow. Kansas seller doors. So, well, this is, let's get back to the real story here. Yeah. Which is that you and Amanda are having a second child. This is very exciting. It's exciting. I'm old to be a dad. So it just. No, you're not. Yeah, I mean, I am. Just not how it's typically done, but that's how it's going to happen. And that's just not old to be a dad. Look at, I think, look at Michael Douglas, I think, was had children. Robert De Niro, Al Pacino. Al Pacino, they're having children at 80. Yeah. Doesn't it seem wrong? You're young compared to them. Compared to them. Yeah. They'll have the same bedtime. I got a bed before my children already. They had to see picture Al Pacino in the crib with the baby. I guess it's good night. What are you going to bring me some crackers? You're going to get a swine axe. The hell, it's only six. I can't believe we're in here. Give it one, Oak. Can't do it. Have you noticed that mama has no billions? Anyway, it's a lot of people are doing it and they're much younger than you. Yeah, I know. So it's going to be fun. I'm saying, you're right. You know what? I just revealed. This is what I'm saying. I just revealed that I'm too old to be a dad. I can't think properly. No, no. Yeah, that thing that Sonas said, that's what I meant. You're much younger than they are. Is that like, baby, everyone's having babies? Yeah. Yeah. You're like a studio head. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're going to be in a house full of girls. I know. Evening your cat. I know. I'm going to be the only man. You know what? I'm just pushing it. Yeah. I know. If, yeah. If you need to boost the testosterone around there, I'll stop by. Oh, dear. We don't need a deficit. Why did the estrogen levels just spike? I'll come. I'll get there. I'll do it. I'll stop by. You know what? Yes. So it is very exciting and how long are you going to be departing for? I'm going to be gone for about three months, but I'm just. What? That's way too long. I know. This is, hey man, it's modern times. Yeah, baby. Wow. You know, who would not like this conversation at all? My wife. Oh. Because I never got any maternity leave and she was like, what's going on? I'm a guy. I do another show, baby. Yeah. America demands it. Turns out they didn't. But don't worry. Amanda will be here in my place. That's very good. Oh, great. Well, Jenny, great actually. She would. I will be popping in and out just because we've recorded a head, someone's stuff like that. You know what I mean? Like the next episode, I think I'll be there for the interview and things like that. So it may seem like a question. And I don't want this to sound crass or bullying or an anyway intimidating. Do you get paid while you're gone? That's a question I have for you. Yeah, good question. Adam, how does this stuff work? You don't have to answer that. I don't want you to be on the spot. Wow, we're going to have this conversation. Well, I'm an independent contractor. I'm not salary. Perfect. I'm sorry. You also, you support paternity leave and a man with his new child. Listen, I want to make sure that everyone's taking care of it. I don't care if, and I believe in everyone having good child care. But of course, my hands are tied. I am, but a figure head on the SS Conan O'Brien. Is this going to be me and you? Yeah. Okay. No way. David's going to sit in. Yeah, we'll get some David. Yeah, we'll get David to sit in. Of course, Blay will be yelling and pitching a mile a minute. Oh, yes. Yep. Wow. Hey, that's what. With those kind of energy nuggets, we can't go wrong. Yeah, and I reserve the right if there's some stellar guest. I'm coming in. Oh, trust me. Yeah. Hey, the whole cast of Blivable Blur, they're cast men of the Sith. I don't know. What? Man of the Sith? Man of the Sith. Man of the Sith. Man of the Sith. That sounds like a Star Wars erotic calendar. I would watch that. That's when I watch Star Wars. Man of the Sith. Blivable Bladdle. And also men of the Sith. I said I like there was vomited my mouth. Man of the Sith. Man of the Sith. Well, this 2026 erotic men of the Sith calendar. Oh, man, check out Frebrewery. His dizzled dazzle goes on forever. Oh, boy. Listen, we should get into it. And listen, sincere congratulations to you. Thank you, Amanda. I joke I'm thrilled. You are thrilled. I know you. I'm anticipating it very much. So I'm nervous, but I'm excited. Okay, well, good, uh, good to be a Godfather. Here we go. Oh, today's guest. That was awkward. Today's guest. Oh, gosh. Uh, whoosh. That was good enough for sound as kids, but that was just weird. Hey, you want to, you want to hear real awkwardness? Just press rewind. Just a little bit. And you'll hear the sound of just nothing, nothing. Hey, today's guest is a Grammy award winning singer songwriter who now stars is a fictionalized version of herself in a terrific new mockumentary film, which I've seen and I loved it the moment. We're very excited to see her today. Charlie XCX. Welcome. I might be your polar opposite in every way. Although I'm, although I'm huge in the clubs, you should know that. Yeah. Huge in the clubs. I'm huge in the London club scene. I know. You just never saw me, but I was huge. But um, my daughter and I saw your movie two days ago and loved it, really loved it. And when the movie was over, my reaction was, well, I don't worry about her because you are so smart. It is such a smart movie. I think just the right thing for you to be doing at this moment. And we'll talk about that in a bit. We'll really get into it. But I just wanted to start by saying, A, my team gets to see a lot of cool people. They're, they're pretty excited today to the point where when your car pulled up, people ran up to the window. Oh my God. Everyone who works for me and they're all young. They run up to the window and they were like, it's a white explorer. It's a Ford. It's a Ford. Yeah. I threw away from the window. I threw myself on the hood. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. We hit him off with the white pills. Yeah. You turned on the wipers? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you're a very inspiring person because I love the arc of your career. It hasn't all come quickly for you. But it's been amazing. And what I wanted to start with was just kind of your origin story, your superhero origin story, which is you kind of lived dual lives growing up. Yes. Because your mom and your dad came from completely different worlds. Is that right? True. Yeah. Yeah. My, um, my mom grew up in Uganda. Mm-hmm. Her and her family had been there for years. She's Indian. Mm-hmm. And she was removed from the country by Idiomine in the 70s. Right. And then she came to the UK then and her and her family were kind of like, you know, rehoused. And I remember she told me it was like when, when they touched down in, in the UK, weirdly at the airport, that's kind of like opposite where my parents still live. Mm-hmm. Now she'd never experienced snow before. And this was like the first time she had ever been somewhere so cold. And they gave all of the kids these like huge fur coats. So she's kind of like stepping off the plane. Where are they handing her a pimp coat? Yeah. So she's like, it was kind of a cool welcome. When you go to Hawaii, you get a lay. Yeah. You get a giant fur coat. Welcome. So they were kind of like swagged out, I guess. And then my dad, um, he, he's adopted and um, his adoptive family is Scottish. So, you know, we say Scottish. But um, he grew up kind of like near where, um, they raised me and, yeah, they met in a club on New Year's Eve. No, so, uh, and am I right? You were born in Cambridge, which I, I was in Cambridge weeks ago. How is it that I haven't been back for a minute? It's Hogwarts. I was hanging around. Right. University and it was just, uh, oh my God, Hogwarts exists. Yeah, totally. And, um, and this is it. But it was lovely. It's, it's almost like a theme park because it's exactly what you think. The quintessential old British, you know, university should look like. Yes. But you then have this kind of, I wouldn't say schizophrenic, but dual world that you're living in, where if you're hanging out in your dad's world, in whether it's Essex or Cambridge, you feel like an outsider of imagining in some ways. And then if you're visiting with your mom's people, that's a whole different experience. Yeah. Totally. It's funny. It's like I grew up, yeah, in Essex and I went to school and a town called Bishop's Dortford and, um, it was like a lot of white kids, you know, predominantly. Mm-hmm. And then on the weekends, I would go and kind of visit my mom's side of the family who lived, uh, like in Crawley. And, um, that was a very much more like traditionally Indian setup. Like big family gatherings, so much food, Bollywood, playing the background, um, speaking good, you're off the, except I never really learned much apart from Jolly Jolly, which means quick, quick. Um, that's like all I know. That's really all you need to know. Yeah. And then, you know, like sometimes like doing prayer and like sometimes going to mosque and things like that. And then like, um, yeah, not really having any of that kind of experience, uh, when I was like going to school or, um, during the weeks, really, and it was kind of hard to really feel that I fit into either world. I suppose because most of my classmates sort of touch point for an Indian person was a poo on the Simpson's, you know, right? So it was like that was what an Indian person was. Yeah. Um, so, uh, it was very like, it was a bit jarring, but also it's, it was also, I must say like it was like, okay, you know, it was, it was like my mom had to struggle a lot more with dealing with kind of, um, racism and, uh, things like that when she was not only growing up, but even when she was living in our town, like I remember one day she, she came home because she'd kind of had like a milkshake thrown over her and been told to go home and things like that. And I've, you know, been very lucky that I haven't had to experience that probably because I'm a lot more passing than she is. Um, but yeah, it is interesting kind of being from both worlds and not particularly feeling like I belonged in either. And it's, and it's also funny because I think doing what I do now, I, I definitely feel that sometimes when I Google myself, which I do, um, I sometimes see that people are sort of like mad that I don't really talk about this side of my life that much. Um, but the reason that I don't, it's because no one asks me. So now that you have kind of sat here and asked me, I'm more than willing and happy to talk about it. I just feel very awkward about using like my culture as a USP, like I find it to be kind of a little bit grotesque. And it's not something that I feel like I really want to do because there are parts of me that feel just distant from both sides of my upbringing. But once I want to ask me about it, I'm so happy to talk about it. Well, I don't know what you think about this, but I've always had this notion or theory that it's good for an artist to be maybe slightly uncomfortable when they're younger. That may sound like, oh, that can't be true. But it is, I feel there's something to the idea that not feeling particularly cool when you're a kid or not being sure what your identity is. It's like the sand in the oyster that gives you the pearl. It may be something that you can access. Is that possible for you to think? I gosh, 100%. And I wouldn't say that that just comes from my heritage. It's like that, I think, for me, comes from feeling, I feel like I was a loser. I was like, it was like coming, which I feel like so many artists have that experience of like, they're just, they've just feel so isolated and alone and uncool and all the things or whatever. I don't know. And I definitely felt that way. I still do. And I think it's like, actually why I used the word nervous at the top of this is because often when I meet people at a party and it's nighttime and there are so many additional things that can help me feel relaxed. You know what I mean? We're talking about hot chocolate. Yes, yes. And I'm not drinking hot chocolate right now. You know what I mean? I mean, it's like, oh, you should try hard drugs. Yeah. What? She doesn't know what hard drugs are. I don't. Everyone thinks I do, but I just, I don't. But yeah, so it's like in the cold light of day, sometimes I do, I do get a little bit nervous and I kind of river back to that younger girl who I think sometimes would feel really out of her comfort zone when meeting people and feeling like, you know, you have to sort of like establish that you're like a functioning human with a brain and things like that. And sometimes it's like, oh, yeah. Yeah. So yeah. But I'm telling you, there's, I think a lot of people listening can relate to this. So a lot of people that would look at you and the stunning astounding success you've had in the career you've had and say, oh, she's just cool and she knows it. And that's who she is and they don't understand the chemistry behind it. There needs to be moments, big moments where you're insecure, where you think I don't have any ideas, sometimes imposter syndrome, everybody, all the people I admire have that in moments. Of course. And they can access it. I'm someone who can go up in front of a lot of people and take charge and be perfectly in control. But I can also in a second, after I'm done with my performance access, the me that's 16 years old, bad skin, doesn't know how to talk to girls, way too skinny, feels like a loser. That person is always lurking around and I can access that person, whether I want to or not in a second. That's just part of the formula. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And I think it's the sort of the kind of duality of both that makes a good artist. I can't be imagining if you're just like so chill and confident and happy with yourself all the time. You'd make terrible art. I know. That's why I think. Yeah, exactly. No, that's why nothing would enrage me more than if a really good looking guy that I knew in high school who was an incredible athlete went on to become the seminal artist. Right. That would be an array. Oh no, nightmare. I would say no. Whatever success I have is my consolation prize. Over years of celibacy. You don't need to know about that, Charlie. That's my problem, not your problem. Okay, I'm going to tell you a way that your parents are different than mine. There's many ways, but this is the biggest one that stands out to me. The way that my parents are different from Charlie XCX's parents. Your parents took you to perform at illegal raves. Never happened with me. And I heard that fact and I thought, this is really interesting because you were young at the time. They were taking you to illegal raves. These are parents who really, they were out of their comfort zone, especially your mom to go to a rave and to take you to this world is a level of support that to me feels phenomenal. Yeah, of course. Obviously at the time I was like, can you guys wait outside? You're cramping my style. I was so ungrateful in a way. Because who wants to go to the rave with their parents? So it's so embarrassing. Especially when you jump on stage. You're like, oh god. Also, I will say they were very, very respectful of my space and stuff when we went. And yes, now with hindsight, I'm like, wow, that is so cool of them. They didn't have to do that. They drove me up there and would hang out in the back. This is like late stuff. This is like, I would go on at 4am. You know what I mean? And they were so cool of them to do that. I will say when I said to them that I really had this big plan to move in with one of the rave promoters when I was 16 in a warehouse in Hackneywick, they drew the line there. And they were like, that sounds like a bad idea. And I was like, does it? I think that's amazing. And they were like, yeah, yeah, no. So they were supported. You know, I like them even more now. I know, you know. They did draw the line. Yeah, they're great. And I think it's cool. My dad was very much kind of like a self-made guy. You know, he works super hard, his whole life, working class background, really kind of like did his thing and did everything he could to kind of have more for himself. And I think he was very much like with the whole rave stuff, he was kind of like, oh, if you're really passionate about this, then you should go and perform because maybe then you can do that for real. And I think most parents would kind of be like, you shouldn't do that. That feels unreliable and stressful and why don't you pursue something else? But I think he was always a bit of a dreamer, which sounds like a horrid sort of cheesy thing to say, but he really was. And so I think for him, it was like, oh, if you're passionate about something, that's really cool. Like, let's try and like figure that out. And I feel very, very, very lucky for that. You know, it's very cool. You ever say to yourself, I could have been a really good tax attorney all the time. Yeah. Because when I was watching your movie, I was like, I'm sorry. I said she's amazing, but tax attorney. And we don't have a lot of them. I know, I know, I know. Yeah, my side hustle. It would be so great if that was your side. I'm fine. After a massive show, were you going, well, I've got to go over these. Yeah. I'm just, yeah. As a kid, you were listening to Spice Girls, No Doubt, Britney Spears. And then at some point, at a young age, you start thinking about writing yourself. And that is a leap. What is the early, early writing for you look like? Is it pen and paper and trying to write things out in a book or is it playing around with a musical instrument? There's a lot of keyboard playing the keyboard. And I had this Yamaha keyboard. And I was making a lot of beats on there and then like recording, like recording, kind of separately, all the different layers. So yeah, it was kind of like writing lyrics and then trying to figure out chords and very much like piano orientated. And I think it all began because I had this boyfriend who turned out to be gay and honestly all the signs were so there. He was like the coolest. And not many, like, you know what I mean? Not many like 15 year old boys are like that cool. And he was like so cool. He had great style, great taste. He made me a mixtape of stuff that I'd never heard before. And I think it was like that was kind of like the moment where I was like, oh, like he kind of like opened my eyes to all of these different artists that I hadn't really been listening to that much before, like some kind of indie bands and then like stuff like gang of four and like, I don't know, like a lot of stuff that I had not really, like it hadn't been on my radar. And at that point, I think I kind of had the hunger to try and write things myself a bit more. I mean, step number one is always you have to put stuff into the machine. You have to open up your head and a volume of not just a type of music, but every type of music. And they call it having big ears, but just the more stuff you're listening to at an early age, I swear to God, they're going to figure out that it happens almost on a neurological level. You can redirect. Your synapses can grow. You can, you can teach yourself that it's a big musical world out there and it becomes part of you. But a lot of it's just osmosis. It's just listening, listening, listening. Something that really interests me about your career, which is there's so many ways that I can't relate to what you do. I admire it, but I can't relate to it. And one thing I can relate to is that I started as a writer and I would write four other people. I know I'd write things for other voices and I listened and watched a lot of comedy, but then I would write for someone a known performer. And I did that for years before I sort of solidified my thing. And I think I know early on you're writing four, a lot of other people and that was your way in. And in some ways it's helpful because you can observe. You had, you're clearly, you know, crazy intelligent. You could observe other people, how they're living, what it's like to be a huge star. And you can stand to offer it for a little bit and participate, but not get the full blast right away. Does that sound right? Kind of. It's interesting. It's like, there is this misconception that I was writing for people first. I actually made a record first and it was really, really good. And it was like critically claimed, but it sold about honestly like 11 copies. It was like really like no one bought it. Basically no one bought it. No one really heard of it. Apart from like the five people who reviewed it, love them, you know, but like, and there was like a small fan base of people who were into it. It was called True Romance. And I was signed at that time to Atlantic Records and I'm pretty sure they would have dropped me like there and then after that album. And at this point in time, this is God what like 2012 I could, I could be so wrong 2013. And this was like a point in time where like record labels had so much more power over an artist and their career and whether they could even have a career. I mean, I think it's so different now, but back then it was like, especially being a woman making pop music, it was like if you didn't have a label, like forget about it, you know what I mean? But right right at the kind of end of that album campaign, which was, it wasn't even a campaign. It just came out whatever. Like I wrote this song called I Love It, which was sung by this Swedish band called Iconopop. And that became a big, a big song and I think that started my career of writing for others. Yes. And if I hadn't had that, then yeah, it probably would have been, you know, a accountant or whatever for me. For me. Tax. Listen. And Lee Point out there's still time. I know. And I know a guy who got all the people. And I know your team doesn't like what I'm taking you down. I love it. I mean, it's responsible. If you would take three years off, just stir me out. First law school, we'll do it later. Yeah. Good. Good. Well, that song too, I know you're singing on that song as well. I am. Yes. Yeah. And so, I mean, that experience of you getting your music across and working with another artist or through another artist, you have that period of time. You have this long arc of making very successful music. I mean, my daughter who I told you is a massive fan. It's been listening to you for years, long before Brad. And was a fan of yours. And then so when the moment comes that Brad comes out, Brad, summer, the whole cultural phenomenon of that, you're probably maybe a little better. I'm not sure if you're prepared. If you can be prepared for something like that. For sure. I mean, 100%. It's funny. I guess as an artist, I had already sort of like dabbled in commercial success through. Yeah. The songs I had written for other people and been a feature on. And you know, that had like literally taken me around the world and been allowed me to perform on different stages and things like that. So I kind of had this secondhand experience as you were saying of pop star success. Sure. I was sort of like the one like photo bombing the photo rather than like in the main center frame. But it was cool. You know, I was cool with that. But yeah. And then I sort of, I had my own song, this song called Boom Clap, which was in this film called Fault in Our Stars. And that was my sort of big like, oh, now she's going to do it. And I like, it didn't really happen. Like I don't think I was ready then. Like I didn't really, I didn't really like have my brain like fully dialed as like an artist brain in a way. Like I wasn't connecting all the pieces of the puzzle together in the way that I do now when I think about my work. And then after that, I kind of like went into this other world of, okay, now I'm going to kind of really like make underground stuff and work with like my freaky friends and things like that. And so when Brat happened and people were into that record, I was actually kind of at this point where I was kind of like, I'm just going to make this record for me. And I don't really care if anybody else likes it. This is for me. This is for my fans. I felt like I was at a point in my career where I could really like sustain like being able to do what I wanted. Even if the album wasn't like commercially successful, like I was like totally at peace with it. And I'd been so swinging on the pen, and back and forth between like what I wanted as a person, as an artist prior to that. But with this record, I was like down the line like, I am ready for it to flop. And I am going to stand by it. I love it. Like this is for me and my fans who like give a fuck about what I'm doing. And then obviously like the it didn't really happen like that. Like a lot more people than my hardcore fan base were into the record. And I think because I had had this prior journey before of like, you know, being in the background of the photos and like kind of like having this sort of like almost type moments, I felt yeah, like I kind of like seen so much. And I'd also like experienced so much of what the industry is and how people come and go and how people treat you when you're on top versus when you're not. And I think not to be not to sound jaded. It's not that I was jaded. I'm just quite realistic about fame and the industry and how serious or unseriously you need to take it. And yeah, I don't know. I feel like really thankful that I got to have the experience that I had prior to that because I think it I think I would have been a nightmare if I hadn't like a really honestly like really like I think it would have been like quite a dangerous like concoction of things all coming together. It makes you feel feel sorry or have empathy for people. There are people that have that when they're 19, 2021 and oftentimes I can lead to drug addiction, mental illness because I don't think people are meant to experience that. And it's not something biologically were meant to be able to handle. I'm just curious because there's a little bit of false modesty about Brad. It wasn't just successful. It's very few times can you say that an album is a cultural phenomenon. This really was. It was artistically a smash, but it took on a whole life. The color and font of the album became a thing. That's when you know you've done something interesting. You know, when you're whatever you're passing by a coffee shop and the color on the font is telling you buy a mocha chino and you're like, okay, this isn't doesn't even have anything to do with Brad. They're trying to use Brad to sell a mocha chino. This is weird. Was there a moment when you've had success before you'd been playing it before people for a long time? Was there a moment that crystallized for you where you thought, oh my god, this is weird. This is big. Or was it all kind of fluid in a way? You're in a flow state. I kind of flow state. And also I'm very bad at doing the thing where you look back and acknowledge success. I'm kind of like next thing. Let's go. I don't know. I can sit here and talk to you guys and say, actually, yeah, I was really cool. But in the moment, I wasn't really thinking like that. And I think I find the whole social experiment of the whole thing really fascinating. And I think the way that people interact with pop culture has always been like a huge inspiration to my work. And so for me, this was sort of like, oh my god, this was like the cherry on the cake of everything I had ever hoped for because it was so interesting to see how people, fans, leaders, brands, presidential campaigns were interacting with what I was doing. And I found it very, very fascinating the way that, yeah, like trend cycles happen. And yeah, it's like, that's always been such an interesting fuel for me and for my work. I'm fascinated with how people engage with stuff like that. This has all served you really well because the moment is your movie. And it is a mockumentary, which I don't think quite describes it because it's a, yes, it's a pretend documentary. It can be very funny at times. But the thing, and so now you saw it as well, the thing that struck me as I watched it and I thought, this is true. This is very, very true. I'm speaking as someone who has nothing, no connection to that world and that experience, but you can tell when something is authentic. And this is a very smart, honest, funny, rye look at what you went through. And no, it is not factual, but it's true. And I was really blown away by, I mean, just when you watch the movie, you get a really good sense of what it's like to be you. And I know it's your, it's a version of you, but it felt to me like a very honest, cool, innovative document. And I loved it. I really did. I don't know what your experience was. You know what? It reminded me of something you said, which is a lot of times people try to justify their paychecks. And it seemed like there was a lot of characters in here who were trying to justify their paychecks in a way. And it shows you, it shows you what it really is for people who are such a big part of the zeitgeist who have so many voices that are just coming at them. And I don't, I mean, it was so, it was really funny. Alexander Skarsgard is amazing in it. It was so incredible in this movie. But everybody is so funny. It's also very real. And it's such a great glimpse into what it's like to go through what you went through. They're big Rachel Senate fans and she was sitting in that chair weeks ago and we were talking about her new show. And I just adore her. I love that she's playing this version of herself, which isn't all that flattering. And it's really funny. The Kylie Jenner. Oh my god. Kylie, like, yes, she kills. But also I love that she comes in and encounters you at a weak moment and gives you this advice which is like, comically, she's telling you, you got to go for it. You got to do this. But in a way, you're thinking, no, don't listen to Kylie. Yeah. She looks ethereal. Yeah. Her lighting is insane. Yeah. And I love him saying. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, you know, the song about the fruit, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which, you know, there, there were so many moments that are, and, and yeah, Alexander Skarsgard's coming in and he's this very awkward, weird energy. But to your point, so, and it's a really good point. The thing I like the most about the movie is something that happens all the time in any kind of entertainment endeavor, which is you are you. You are a real person living in the world. You have these experiences. You're following your own North Star creatively, making your stuff. Then you hit this mother load of insane success and you're right, credit card companies, you know, Frappuccino companies, you know, sneaker companies, banks, presidential candidates, everybody moves in and then you have a team. And as we talked about earlier, a lot of your work is flow state work. But now people say, now hold on a second. It's not good for Arby's restaurant. If you, you know, say fuck in the song, could you instead say I enjoy Arby's? Yeah. And you're saying, what? Yeah. Why would, why would Charlie XCX be saying I like Arby's? It would really help. And that is depicted so well in this movie and it is funny, but it's also, it's not just a funny movie. It also felt like very much a snapshot of where we are right now. And I think people are always trying to depict a lot of movies about famous people and people going through fame. I thought this was the truest depiction I've seen in memory of what it's really like. Right. Because yeah, it's like thank you for saying all of that by the way. It's so kind of you. And you really got the film, which is great, great news, great news. You thought it was an idiot. And the car ride on the way over in your white Ford. Yeah. Who is this idiot? Yeah. It's where I wrote, I said, nervous. Yeah, it's nervous. Yeah, it's nervous. And then he showed you a picture of my hair and you went, what is that? Yeah. No, I mean, you know, you never know. You're so locked into the edit and you're like, we're insane. It feels clear to us. And then you're like, you know, whatever. Anyways, no, your smart. You're really so smart. So that's something. You know what I always say? Charlie, when someone likes my work, I say, you're smart. I know. I know. And when someone has any problem with it, I say, you're an idiot. That's how I'm going to do press for this film. You know, who hears an idiot? You can show yourself out. It's going to be really good. You know what's really nice too is you have proven yourself a million times over with your abilities in music and as a performer. You're very funny. Oh, thanks. And, no, no, but you really are. You're very funny and the way you play things because a lot of people think being funny is about saying a line in a funny way. And yeah, okay, that's true. There's so much of it, which is almost harder to do, which is reactions. And so much of the movie is watching your face watching what's happening to you. Right. And you are the avatar for the audience. So we're watching it thinking, Jesus, scar scar. It's a weird guy. And other people are listening to him saying, well, he's a big deal and he's got a next scarf. And yes, but you're taking it in and your face is, is, you're, you're, you're, you're you play the comedic moments really well. Thank you. It was very funny. Thank you. And then I, I, someone turned me on to your movie reviews that you do. And I was reading your movie reviews, which you do on what is it? Letterbox. Letterbox. Letterbox. Letterbox. What is it now? He said putting on his glasses. Just letterbox. Young lady. Go to your room. Um, you're like a complete unknown. You said there are a lot of songs in this. Money ball. This isn't for British people. I love this one. Because as you know, I did a thing once, parodying, we did a film parodying Mad Max Fury Road. And I was, his name is the do for you. He's the guy that hangs off the front of the truck in Mad Max Fury Road playing the, the playing the guitar that shoots flame. Yeah. Your review for that fantastic movie is the guitarist dead. Hope so. And I was just like, Oh, okay. You're also a comedy writer, which isn't fair because I've worked it that my whole life. And then you step out of the, a rave and do it and do it really well. But um, I would think your sense of humor would, it's so important to your, to everything. It's so important to music and to just staying sane. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, yeah, I think it's like, I have to take everything with a pinch of salt, but then at the same time, I'm also like an emotional wreck. And it's kind of like balancing the two things. And I think it's like, I try and approach everything I do with, with kind of acknowledgement of both sides of my personality, whether that be, you know, in making music or doing press or, you know, even the film itself. Um, and I think that's an important part about the film, you know, it's like, and to go back to, to your point about it being what you feel is an accurate depiction of, um, fame or success or whatever the phrasing was that you use. It's like, it, it's so ridiculous, really, isn't it? Like the world that we live in or encounter, it's, it's like amazing. And exciting, but it's also like pointless and ridiculous. And then also so rewarding sometimes and sometimes I am the complete total villain, you know, and I think, and I don't just mean like in the, in the film, I mean like actually, like in my life, in my world, like I can be a fucking nightmare. Sometimes, you know, what's your about that? Yeah. But it's, you know, it's like, and I think for me, it was really important that like, I, I wasn't sort of taking, I wasn't like landing in this kind of like, you know, like morally, like perfect place at the end of the film because that has not been my experience with working in the music industry. And it hasn't been my experience with fame. It's like, it's complex. Like you don't always land in this place where you're like, and now I've like tied up all the loose ends. I was a great person. Everybody loves me. And that's the end of the book. Like, no, it's like, you hurt people, you burn people, you, you like a really rude to your sweet manager on text one day and they're having probably the worst day ever, but they're professionals. So they don't like say anything back, you know, and you cancel a show. You like, whatever it is, I don't, I don't know, but it's like, it's all so heightened and crazy. Of course. And I hope that we showed that in the film and I hope that whilst I acknowledge I can be like that sometimes, I also hope that I try and be like a nice person. You know, I hope that I wouldn't be the real person to ask about that. Well, you know, we've talked to people and you're a monster. That's just the way it is. And I'm talking about the people right outside. So you can let them go. Okay. But yeah, they have to go. I won't tolerate that on your behalf. No, what I love is that you, in your work, you've made it kind of a mission to tell girls and you're very, you have a massive influence with young women to say, I'm scruffy. I say dumb shit. Sometimes I fall down because what's modeled for them often is perfection, is fairytale, is perfect lighting, is things that they can't possibly compete with. No one can compete with. And you have gone out of your way to, I think, be true to the you that's in a rave at four o'clock in the morning. And it's, you know what I mean? It's sweaty and it's chaotic. And you improvise some stuff and this went well, but I just knocked that light over and smashed it and someone's going to have to pay for that. But it's not me. Whatever. Yeah, yeah. I think you've been very good about, which I admire and you're not doing it to be a good person, you're doing it because that's the way you see the world. Absolutely. You're not saying, oh, I'm going to do this good person thing. You're doing it because that's how you see things and that's how you see yourself and you want these young women to see you that way so they can see themselves that way. Yeah, totally. I mean, and look, it's like, I would hope that as I said, I am a good person to those who meet me in, you know, in real life. But I didn't make, I didn't decide I wanted to make art to be a role model. Oh, yeah. Does that word comes from that? No, it's like I should not be putting that category at all. Like, I don't want that responsibility. I don't think it is an artist's responsibility to be a role model. Like, I think opinions on that have kind of changed as like the relationship between fan and artist gets sort of closer and closer and closer, but I don't really subscribe to that belief personally. And yeah, I think it's like, if I can show people that fucking up sometimes is actually fine because we're all human and we all probably do it, even if we claim to not on the internet where we're being like our best, most curated versions of ourselves. Like I think that's good because I would have loved to have seen that when I was younger. You know, but I also am probably going to like mess up at that at some point too. You know, it's like, that's just how it goes. You know, I don't want to give anything away, but the end of your movie, not to be careful here because I don't want to give it away, but it's the end of your movie is you having to make a choice, a big choice about how you're going to present yourself on stage. And I'm not going to say what happens, but people are pressuring you to put on these, the kind of outfits we're used to seeing when someone does a world tour or a massive, you know, arena show, something, and you're putting on these dresses and things that really aren't you, but people are saying, no, you got to wear this because this is the next step. And I was thinking, was there any point where you were looking at any of those dresses thinking, this is actually, I really like this. I think maybe you were. Well, okay. Okay. There's a green one you wear that I must have. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Because I've got a curious. Oh, my God. Well, come on, so now you've seen it. I'm happy. They can't find it. I show you that you can't find it. I have no ass famously. My ass was lost in a terrible accident a year ago. You know, I got to say, no, there wasn't, but there was actually like the opposite experience where I'm not sure if I am, this is something I can say or not, but you know, we can always take it out. We'll find out. But there is this moment actually where I'm sort of on the way to making the decision at the end of the film where I'm kind of trying to decide like which, what show am I doing? And I'm in a rehearsal for this more traditional kind of show. And on the day that we shot it, I'm wearing this outfit that is not something like I've ever worn before. It is green. I'm, you know, green hair, green eyeshadow. And I'm up on wires. And when we were shooting it, you know, I was up on wires up and down for like most of two days. But before I went up, my creative director in real life came over to me and she was like, are you okay? And I was like, yeah, I think so. And she was like, you, you know, you look really, really lame right now. And then, and I was like, really? I was like, really? And she was like, yeah. And then I cried. And then she cried. And she was like, you've never looked so uncool. And I was like, oh my god. And then the director, the director came over and was like, you ready to shoot? I was like, I'm fucking hate you. That's great. And he was like, this is the point, you know? But she was really funny. And I honestly don't think we're giving anything away. Because if I heard this, I'd be like, I have to see this movie. And it doesn't give anything away because we won't tell you what happens. But it's a moment in the movie where you're getting some pressure to do the more traditional thing. And we always see pop artists up on, you know, wires. It's just, they're, it's been more time up in the year than on the ground. And, but what really made me, there's a visual that people have to see, which is they hoist you up and you're in the middle air and you've got your, your outfit on and your boots and you're holding the microphone and you're just singing, but not doing any. So they just took, you're doing the exact same thing you would be doing. You know, you're not moving. No, no, no. It's not Cirque du Soleil. It's if they took a tax lawyer and hoisted them in the air and told them, now do your work. And you're just there saying, well, if I, and that really made me laugh. There's so much stuff like that in the film. Yeah, you know what I will say from shooting that scene, I, I gotta say I have so much respect for artists who do go up on wires because it is like really hard. It's really hard to look good and poised and effortless. Like it's so hard. Like I really was like at points and it's all got cut from the film. I was like really trying to look good and I kind of look like sugar plump fairy. It's like really, really hard to look like serene and gorgeous. It's so impossible. So respect to Pankan, whoever else is doing all the flips and stuff is very hardcore. No, no, it's amazing. Yeah, it's cool. That people can do it and sing and move. Yeah, impossible. We should do the podcast sometime when it's the three of us. Yeah, yeah. A fun wire. And then you can be our guest and we'll hoist you up. Yeah, and then we'll tell you you look lame. And you can wear the green dress. You'll tell us to fuck off. Yeah, yeah. It'll be a nice show. Charlie, I am delighted, absolutely delighted to meet you. And just it's so funny because the thing that keeps inspiring me is people that are much younger than me who are oftentimes in an art form that has that I maybe I don't understand that they're doing something completely different. But I see the same things over and over again, which is really hard working true to themselves, discipline, honest and brave. And I think and I look at all those qualities and time and time again in history, those people do really great things and I get inspired. And you know, so I'm this geezer who's like, that's cool. I'm really glad you're out there. I'm really glad that you're doing your work and doing it so beautifully. Love the film. And please come back sometime because it's been an absolute joy talking to you. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for having me at a great time. Oh, good. And we'll talk about this tax thing. Yes, perfect. I think you're wasting your time in music. No, come on. She's good with numbers. I know she is. Okay, it's time for review. The reviewers. I'm going to have a podcast. I pull out one of them just flowing sea of five star reviews. Beautiful spot. Beautiful. And we repeat it. And then we reviewed the review. I'm about to review you right now. You said review. Well, I the audience won't know. I'm talking about I will cut that out. I don't think so. I think you're going to keep it in because you're going to know what I'm going to keep this part in. Yeah, better comedy. I will keep it in. It's good. I'm going to cut all of this out. Okay. All right. Okay. Celebrate 86. Okay. Sibling rivalry, five stars. Love, love, love the podcast. Conan, you son of a mat have an infectious sibling rivalry. What do you think day-to-day life would have been like if you three were actually siblings and grew up together in the same house? Oh, wow. Well, I don't think we even have to suppose what this would be because we know. We know. I mean, pick any period of history, pick any situation anywhere in the world. Three of us living in a house day-to-day as siblings would be exactly what you think it is. Even as kids, would it be any worse or better? I think it would be less of just the ages. So you're like two years older than me and I'm two years older than Sonia. Okay. Yeah. So there's just a two year gap between each of us. Am I the oldest? Yeah. Yeah. Still the oldest. Okay. So, well, I mean, my brother Justin could speak to this very well. I would be 24, seven bits. I would recruit him in bits. So I'd be recruiting both of you into my bits and making you participate against your will. It would be tough. It would be tough. It would be tough. We ourselves in this scenario that I would pummel the two of you on a date. What did I do to you? Just because it's like you're an easy target. Yes. You're just going to be like, I'm painting my figurines or whatever you're doing. Yeah. He has his figurines. Yeah. Yeah. He has famous architects of the early 20th centuries. And he's doing his little paintings of the figurines. Yeah. He would. So yeah, I'm just, I'm just, you know, I'm going to like kick him and I'm going to beat you up because I think that happened to me a lot and it made me a much tougher person. Like my brother was bigger. Yeah. And he beat me up a lot. Yeah. And so I would be him up. I tried. I think if I had weaker people around me, I would beat them up. So I think I would just, Danny was, Danny was just stronger than you. And I think he was a real nerdy, carried a briefcase around as a kid. I did not. And I know that we just got to get the word out of that. I literally know that's you. No, no, no, no, no, this for a fact that she should have, I did not carry a brief case. He told me you had a briefcase when you were calling. You did have a briefcase or high school. You did. I told him on this podcast. I know, but I was probably bullshing. I did not have a briefcase. My brother really wanted to work in finance for a really long time. And he had a briefcase. Her brother had, Danny had a briefcase. You have said, right? He said on this podcast that he had a briefcase. I don't know. I can't remember. I don't know that I did have a brief. I forget every podcast where we record. We have to, because that's, I don't think that's true. I would, I know, I mean, the first to admit I had a briefcase. No, no, I think you know, I had, I had a, is that you really wanted a briefcase? You've talked about what I said is that I liked, I really loved office supplies. I love the ideas of having like a stamp. I love the ideas of having one of those pressy things that makes like a little medallion on the paper and emboss her and emboss her. That's cool. I liked, no, no, I'm saying I, I know this is terrible, but I really wanted an intercom where I could go like, hello, Louise, you know, put those, get those memos out. I love that. My, my dream when I was a little kid was to be a mid-level Soviet bureaucrat. So your brother had a briefcase. You show me a picture once when you're all little kids. And he's standing there. I think he's wearing one of your dad's suits. It's too big and he's holding a briefcase. Yeah, he does. He used to hold a briefcase. But then he got older and then he became a jock and he was a football player and he was like, huge. She'd have to work out all the time. And so, you know, he would like, we would fight over the remote or whatever and things like that. So I got really tough because of him. Yeah. And I feel like with you two as my siblings, you know, I just be you up all the time. Let's keep in mind in this scenario, I'm two years older than you. I'm your older brother. You still think. You're four years older than me. And I would still beat you up. You still beat me up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, you know what? That scans. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think you would beat me up. So I'm taking abuse from both sides. Yeah. You are, you're all yours. I don't, I think you die after a year. I'm being honest. I think I open my veins in a warm bathtub. You know, I want to be in living this life. No, no. You open your veins in a bathtub, but we find you, bind you, and then just, and then beat you. And then incapacitated. Yeah, that's too good a way for you to go. But no, you're misery. People are looking for you and then you're, you're found in a bog. What's left of you? They find your glasses floating on top of the water. They need me dead. Yeah. We'd kill you so fast. No, no, you'd be gone. Yeah. And then a son and I, I think you would quickly realize, this guy's going on to things. He's going to monetize these bits. And so you wouldn't want me dead because you know you can sponge off me the rest of your life as you do now. I wouldn't want either of you dead. You're my siblings, right? Yeah, you sure love us. Yeah, sure. But I want to, I'll fight you. That's how people show. You know what? Even if we don't kill Gourley, he dies of like the milk sickness. I know. He's very weak. He dies is something. I'm sorry. You are. Yeah, you'd get the rheumatism, you know? I want you to have braces. You'd have braces on your chest and your legs. I did have braces on my legs. I know I shouldn't laugh, but you know those braces you had? Big them out of a cruder material. And that's what you would have in this scenario. Wicker. Yeah. Okay. But, and then I do say after you're gone, we do feel badly and we go visit your grave for a little while. Just a little bit. Then we move on because I'm a big deal. Well, I have faith in my death just to get away from you guys. And I'm living here happily, you've happily anywhere, you know, anywhere but here. It's right now in this time that I'm not even joking. We're out of this role playing scenario. It's like the, it's like Tom Sawyer, Huck Finn, you're, you're up in a tree, you fake your death, you're up in a tree listening to your own eulogy. But then you fall out of the tree and you're killed. I fell right into the grave. We roll, you're right into the grave, we've already done. Yeah. We're like, yeah, that works. I think what happens is I'm a ghost, I've got, I'm a CIA thing, I had to fake my death, I got multiple passports. I'm doing my own thing. I think we all know that. I think you die. You become a ghost, but then you're sickly as a ghost. Which has never happened before. Other ghosts are like, that's not supposed to happen. And then, and then you're done as a ghost and become. And then you're done as a ghost and become. And become a more translucent ghost. And then you're still sick. And you can't, because the pathogen keeps getting spread. Oh my God. Yeah. And then you're just a ghost that's weezing and coughing and blowing your nose as you are now all the time. Oh my God. Other ghosts are bullying you. I think it would be fun. Do you think our parents would like constantly, like at dinners and stuff, they'd just, what are parents leave us? For good. Right, that's what I mean. I think the parents would move out. Yeah. But then again, they'd have that hint that not Conan guy seems like he's monetizing this bit thing. We better just keep in touch just to get some of that sweet scratch. Well, when you were a kid, no one was like, he's going to monetize this. They were like, Luke knew, Luke knew. Did he? Oh, that's cool. That's not what he did. I was thinking, he had an advocate. He was figuring out. I think what you do now, while you can monetize it now, back when you're a kid, it's like concerning. Yeah. Yeah. Oh no. They're going to monetize this and they're thinking, we need to institutionalize. Yes, that's right. Me. But some of our best artists have been institutionalized. You know? OK. I just made that up. I don't think that's true. I know. I don't know if that is either. OK, well, I think we answered that question. And that was review the reviewers. Conan O'Brien needs a friend with Conan O'Brien, Sonom of Sessian and Mack Goryley, produced by me, Mack Goryley, executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Nick Leo, theme song by The White Stripes. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Our supervising producer is Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples, engineering and mixing by Eduardo Perez and Brendan Burnts, additional production support by Mars Melnick, talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Britt Con. You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan? Call the team Coco Hotline at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It too could be featured on a future episode. You can also get three free months of serious XM when you sign up at seriousxm.com slash Conan. And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend, wherever fine podcasts are down below.