"There's A UFO Under the Ranch!" - Skinwalker Owner Breaks Silence

You're stepping into the unknown when you come out to Skinwalker Ranch. My wife and I will never allow any of our children to set foot on the property. Brandon Fugle is the owner of Skinwalker Ranch. It is the epicenter of all sorts of paranormal activity, UFO-related activity. Oh, right there! It came right out of the mesa! Whatever we're dealing with has the ability to manipulate equipment. My camera just went out. Reprogrammed, very sophisticated systems. Oh, I live in, that's creepy. And also caused an acute medical episode. He couldn't walk. He was immobilized. Is it aliens or is it spiritual? Are we dealing with angels and demons or a portal? Think of an interstellar, a Stargate, an interstellar highway potentially that provides transit between dimensions or worlds. It's raining drones over here. Well, am I wrong that the subplot to all of this is that there is a UFO under the mesa at Skinwalker Ranch? We'll see. You brought in a rabbi who did like a Kabbalistic prayer. He had a rabbinical chant that would open portals. Shalom. You guys find a direwolf, what is it, like a jawbone? That's a whole carcass. Direwolves are from 125,000 B.C. Did it time travel there? The fact that you have helicopters escorting some of these UFOs and UAP into the mountains, that blows my mind because then it's like not just no it's a coordinated effort yes between humans and the being has anybody showed up to the ranch where they feel one step ahead of you and you're you kind of just you feel a little resonance you see it in the eyes and you're like this person knows a whole lot and we're kind of piecing it together absolutely here's the reality just yeah we're being monitored how is this possible The existence cannot longer be denied. Brandon Fugel, this is an honor. It's a long time coming, and it's a full circle moment for me, having visited the ranch, what was it, four years ago? About four years ago. Indeed, it was right when we were in the middle. of our public disclosure and building momentum with the documentary series and bringing a diversity of individuals to the property to be briefed on the reality of the phenomena and what we were seeing at that time. And so much has happened since your visit. So much has happened. It's my privilege and it's an honor. And, you know, I want to present you properly because most people in your position with your sort of, you know, with your money, with your resources, they're trying to make more money. They're maybe comparing yachts at Saint-Tropez. They're on a treadmill. You know, maybe they're trying to shape the world politically. You're in a very rare category of person who is really trying to discover the nature of reality and spending his resources, his hard-earned money in commercial real estate towards kind of, you know, figuring out the secrets of the universe. And so I think that is amazing, and it's a really beautiful thing. And I think you're a role model to a lot of people at home who are both industrious but also curious. I think it is part of my stewardship. And as I've mentioned in other forums, I consider myself the steward, not necessarily just the owner of Skinwalker Ranch. And as being a steward of this place and these topics to a degree, I've tried to address them with the right, hopefully, level of humility and reverence and personal investment. I don't think there is another private individual on the planet that has invested more into these topics than I have over the last decade. And it's all in service to the truth and hopefully sharing that truth with the public. I don't believe I have a corner on that truth or that IP. I believe it is a public right and benefit to hopefully learn right alongside us. And we've used a documentary series as a primary vehicle, but also our web portal that allows people a 24-hour, seven-day-per-week look into the ranch. A lot of people don't realize they can actually go online and be part of the investigation 365 days a year. and we have crowdsourced for the first time frontier science efforts like no other group, no other effort. And I'm quite proud of that effort. We call them the insiders. Our insider program is one of the most exciting parts of our endeavor because it's allowed other private individuals to participate and to monitor what is happening at the ranch. That's amazing. And, you know, a testament to the transparency that you're trying to kind of imbue this whole effort with. To those that don't know, if you're living under a rock out there, Brandon is the owner of Skinwalker Ranch. And Skinwalker Ranch is a fascinating location. It is the epicenter of all sorts of paranormal activity, UFO-related activity. You see orbs and spheres often around the mesa, sometimes going through the mesa, going through rock. Right, transmedium phenomena. I mean, what we see at Skinwalker Ranch is the highest frequency of UFO or UAP sightings matched with electromagnetic anomalies and a host of high strangeness that continues to baffle, I think some of the most skilled researchers, scientists, and experts that we've brought on to help us document and study the phenomena. It's a great privilege. I mean, it's a private laboratory. You look at this 512-acre piece of property that is in northeastern Utah, sequestered in the middle of thousands of tribal acres. I mean, it's right in the middle of the Ute Ore Reservation and has been not only the subject and focus of frontier science investigation for now over 30 years, but it has been under armed, guarded surveillance since 1996. I don't know another place on the planet that is truly a secure living laboratory. We call it sometimes the private area 51 for studying these topics and being able to hopefully understand the nature of our universe, our role in the universe and what that plays and what is really happening. It's almost like if you put the phenomenon in like a lab environment, in like a closed environment, it would be Skinwalker Ranch. It's like a little Petri dish or something. It really is. Or others say it's Mecca for the paranormal. Mecca for the paranormal. I love it. We have people show up all day every day. I paid my tribute. Yeah. It's funny. People come to the gates and they'll try to touch the gates so they'll get their photos. A little pilgrimage. And there are some really good people all over the world that are asking the same questions. The same questions that have been asked for thousands of years. You know, are we alone in the universe? You know, what is the nature of reality? Do we live in a divinely constructed, intelligently designed reality? And are there other beings or influences that are helping to shape, for better or for worse, that reality? I want to get into that. But before, I want to back up and talk about a pact that you made in, I think, fifth or sixth grade. Okay. Behind the school. Yeah. Do you know what I'm talking about? I believe what you're referring to is me and my best friend, Chris Lee. He's a prominent doctor. I think he's the leading radiation oncologist in the country. He's up in the Pacific Northwest and is a partner in several clinics. Well, Dr. Lee, or Chris Lee, who was my best friend in fifth grade, playing Dungeons and Dragons with me and taking karate, he and I one day heard that there was a pack of cigarettes that was found on the playground. and everyone was in a huff about it and everyone was whispering about who was out smoking on the playground. And we ended up being late to class and talking about it in the boys' restroom and we made a pact and we shook on it. We made a pact that we would never smoke or drink or what we call in Mormonism or as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints break the word of wisdom. and that we would hold each other to that pact. And we both remind each other almost on a monthly basis of our promise, and we've kept it all these years. So we shook on it in fifth grade, and now at age 53, we still check in with each other relative to whether we've kept our promise. And so to this day, I've never drank. I've never tried alcohol. I've never smoked. I don't even know what coffee tastes like for that matter. That's incredible. we've adhered to that. And I think it's kept me out of trouble. I don't judge anyone. I want to be clear about that, that I don't judge anyone for feeling differently or practicing differently, but that's a promise that we made. It was very personal, and it's helped me in my life. I've seen great blessing come from adhering to that health protocol. Well, you definitely have the Mormon glow. in our spaceship here. So that was what you're referring to. Yeah, that was what I was referring to. Yeah, a little inside info that I got. Oh, that's awesome. But I remember specifically when I visited Skinwalker Ranch, you drank a big thing of Diet Mountain Dew every day, and you didn't get sick. I found that fascinating. I drink like 200 to 300 ounces of Diet Mountain Dew for the most part. When I don't have Diet Mountain Dew, I switch to the hard stuff, which is Diet Coke. So I was glad that you had that here in the studio. But I kid, but it's true. The first two ingredients in Diet Mountain Dew, if you check the ingredient label, are orange juice and carbonated water. And I know there's a whole bunch of stuff that isn't healthy, that isn't good for you, but I always turn to those ingredients. And I'm like the only one in my family who hasn't had kidney stones, knock on wood. I've been very fortunate. But it's my jet fuel because I run hard. I work typically 18, 20 hours a day, Monday through Friday, and the rest of the weekend. That's incredible. I don't know how you run the real estate business simultaneous to doing all you do at Skinwalker Ranch. I mean, that must be a lot to juggle. It's a balancing act. I currently represent, I think, 200 different properties available across five counties, over 30 cities. some of the biggest commercial real estate projects, but at the same time, I'm trying to be a good steward over what I believe to be the most important frontier science endeavor and trying to keep my team focused and intact. But also, it's a dangerous place. We've had so many members of our team and visitors that have ended up in the hospital with mysterious illnesses, injuries. Bad things happen out there. So there's a real liability issue. And then you have the sensitivity of the ongoing scientific investigation. Every time you introduce people into that space, into that environment, it can have impact. It has both positive and negative effects. and where I think we're observing phenomena that could be defined as malevolent at times, as negative or adversarial, as well as benign or even positive. Yeah. You have to be careful. You're stepping into the unknown when you come out to Skinwalker Ranch. It's at your own risk. Yeah. You probably remember we had everyone sign a liability. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And we can get into some interesting experiences I had after the fact, which I know is not uncommon. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Like possibly a little hitchhiker. Yeah, you're kidding. Yeah. The hitchhiker effect, which I didn't believe in and I thought was just mythology to a degree or people kind of just imagining things. I has come home to roost in my life. It took a lot of years, but it just in the Last two years, I've witnessed the hitchhiker effect, unfortunately, in my own life. A hitchhiker effect should probably be plural, not just a singular form of the term, because there are many effects. People would go to this property, encounter unusual phenomena, UFOs, whatever, and then they would go home and they were visited at their home by orbs, by craft, by crypto-type beings, poltergeist-type activity broke out in their homes. Before that time, before a couple of years ago. Because I remember four years ago when I visited, you were like, nothing's ever happened to me. I was like, this is remarkable. He's going back and forth, helicoptering in. Here I'm the owner of the ranch and I'm stimulating this. I'm to some degree aggressively trying to document this for the first time. Yeah. And I fully expected that if there's any validity, the hitchhiker effect, it would be witnessed and it would come to my home. both literally and figuratively. So that ended up happening? It's happened. And it was unfortunate. We had an experiment that we were running that was really aggressive, and everything went wrong. What did it involve? It was a couple years ago, and it involved the helicopters, my helicopter and another helicopter, and we had an army of experts and equipment. and something that day was not happy with the work we were doing. Something wanted, something or someone was active in the space and everything went wrong and haywire. And all of the instrumentation across the ranch was acting strangely, was behaving strangely, and then we had some unfortunate things occur. I mean, we were very lucky that people didn't die on that day. you never want to put people in harm's way, but this is unknown. This is an effort that deals with the unknown. And when I returned that night to my home, flew back, for the next several weeks, starting that night, everything felt different at home. We have a little shih tzu. My wife and I, Kristen, have a little shih tzu. I swear he runs the place. His name is Arthur. I don't know if you have any, Pat. But Arthur the dog, and he's very docile, sleeps all night, is very quiet. But that night I got home, he got up on the edge of the bed and wouldn't stop growling, like just Cujo-like, just growling harshly into the corner of the room, into just kind of a dark corner of the room, and wouldn't stop. And that proceeded about every night, right around 3 a.m. or so, he would get up and start growling and barking at something that wasn't there, that was unseen, which is uncharacteristic. I mean, this is a dog that's been with Kristen for, I don't know, eight plus years. And so there are a couple of other things that happened, objects that moved, that were moved. by unseen forces, and it was undeniable, and it was trickster-like activity. It was not nice. Do you remember an object that moved? Her wedding ring. Wow. So her wedding ring was actually moved. It's not something you don't remember moving. No. And, in fact, I wish she was here to tell the story, but she got up in the morning. And she has a little dish, a little dish that she always keeps her jewelry in there on her dresser. And every night takes off her jewelry and everything else. Well, she got up the next morning, got ready, and the ring was gone. And she searched everyone. Everything else was there. Didn't know what to make of it. No one had been in our home that we were aware of. and she ended up saying she's a very spiritual person. So she ended up praying the rosary. She's Catholic in her background, praying the rosary and saying prayer that she would find it was just frantic. And in her mind's eye, she saw that ring in the pocket of a robe that we had acquired at a hotel that was in her closet that she hadn't worn. For months. And she literally got up from prayer, walked into her closet, searched for that robe that she had not worn in months, dipped into that pocket, and it was there. Whoa. And I know everyone's going to, who knows how people react to this story. This is the first time I've ever told this. I've never, ever told this story in public. And it really isn't my story to tell, which is kind of my wife's mantra. But I don't think she'd mind me sharing it because it's real. It's true. But there were a number of other things that occurred that were a little bit unsettling and disturbing. So she ended up having the house blessed, had someone come, a spiritual person come and sage the house, and it went away. Whoa. It abruptly left. The dog went back to its normal routine, and we haven't had anything since. But it was that night and followed for weeks. Now, others on my team who've had the hitchhiker effect manifest have had much more unfortunate circumstances. I mean, they've had family members that have come to harm. They've had their security go crazy. I mean, and a lot of this, this isn't just tales. These aren't just anecdotal accounts. There's data. What are the most stark examples? Thomas Winderton. One day I decided to do some digging, and then three days after, I noticed that I had a goose egg on the back of my head. My scalp separated from my skull. The pain is so excruciating, I've never felt anything like it before in my life. And not only was he hospitalized with an illness, with injuries that threatened his life that remain unexplained. I mean, the only thing that could explain his injuries is some type of beam energy device that irradiated the back of his head. But beyond that, as he's continued to forcefully help us try to get the answers and manage that ranch for me, I mean, he's been with me for over 10 years since April of 2016. Shortly after I bought the ranch, I engaged him. Thomas has had things happen in his home upon returning from Skinwalker Ranch. I mean, we're talking about his automotive vehicles all of a sudden go haywire and crazy. Security breached. Fires started. Again, I'm now breaking my wife's rule. It's not my story to tell. But Thomas, I don't think would have a problem going on record in stating that he and so many others have actually documented. But we're talking about not just a witness, but they have documented with camera surveillance and other means the reality of the hitchhiker effect that is real. And that's why you have to be very cautious. You have to be humble and reverent when tackling these topics. Because we're dealing with forces that are unknown and, frankly, far beyond our capability. I mean, whatever we're dealing with has the ability to manipulate equipment, reprogram very, very sophisticated closed systems, and also even, I think, manipulate consciousness itself. We've even seen time-space. We've seen time act and behave differently on the ranch. It's almost that's really to say more about that. Yeah. Well, GPS, I'll give you one major highlight that has been repeatable. And we have an abundance of data supporting. GPS malfunctions and is manipulated on Skinwalker Ranch. It just does not operate. Imagine. And GPS is sort of based on, you know, relativity and time. And billions of dollars worth of space assets, satellites coordinated with our instrumentation on the ground. Just imagine, I mean, how much of our world today, even me coming here to this studio, was dependent on the accuracy and the reliability. It's also based on triangulating signals based on time. Correct. So that's why I'm like, yeah, I wonder if there's some time manipulation involved in the GPS failure. When Dr. Taylor and others speculate that there's a portal or portals or wormholes on Skinwalker Ranch, they're basing that on real-world data and observations that point to that being a potential reality. They're not just making that up. They're not just pulling that out of thin air. There are anomalies. So like a mini black hole or something? Or a portal, think of an interstellar, a stargate, an interstellar highway potentially that provides passage or transit between dimensions or worlds. So interesting because you have Hawking radiation coming out of black holes traditionally. Correct. Electromagnetic fallout. And then you have this concept John Wheeler proposed called Wheeler Tunnels named after him where maybe there are little wormholes all over the world. And all over the universe. And this would be a way to kind of transport yourself. Who knows if they're biologically traversable. Eric Davis wrote a whole paper about biologically traversable wormholes. But there would be electromagnetic fallout. And you guys measure all sorts of electromagnetic anomalies all over the ranch. Well, and those anomalies, those electromagnetic anomalies or fingerprints often correlate with the appearance of unidentified aerial phenomena, equipment malfunction, even acute medical episodes. And that's the thing. When you have these correlations, when you have simultaneous electromagnetic anomalies, acute medical episodes, unidentified aerial phenomena, all appearing and documented by instrumentation, We're talking high-speed cameras, all sorts of tracking. Tri-field meters. Surveillance. Yeah, you bet. A diversity of scientific platforms that all operate and function differently but are all indicating that something is changing within the space. It seems to occur often in the ultra-high frequency microwave range, and there's a specific signal that you guys keep receiving in the 1.6 gigahertz. It's intriguing. And we have yet to identify the source, the origin, and we've scanned that property. I mean, people all the time challenge me also on the environmental. They're like, well, there must be some radioactive material. Well, we've brought some of the leading environmental testing companies in the country. I mean, these people, these companies have worked on programs for the federal government, for the private sector and are truly the experts, and they can't find any origin associated with that. They can't locate it, yet it's there. It's transient. It comes and goes. Eric Bard, our principal investigator and chief scientist over the last 10 years, initially identified an electromagnetic signature or a fingerprint associated with much of the phenomena or the events. What is that signature? Well, it was first seen when he visited the ranch that day that I became an experiencer. I went from being a skeptic to an experiencer within a matter of minutes. He's pointing up ahead, and I looked exactly where he's pointing, straight ahead of us above the mesa, and there is literally a silver-grayish disc-like object about 100 feet above the mesa just sitting there suspended in the air. And on that day, the equipment started malfunctioning. Smartphones started behaving strangely, and he was able to later replicate those anomalies by focusing intense electromagnetic force using a large magnet, a neodymium magnet, in order to actually repeat the effect, the experiment, which is both exciting and troubling. That was covered in our first season of our docuseries in real time. In fact, he brought out the case with this dangerous magnet. Yeah, those are super dangerous. Those will rip through your body if they're on either side. Yeah, and he demonstrated the effect. And a lot of people, it went over everyone. I would say it went over 99% of people's heads. They were like, oh, that's dumb or that isn't a flying saucer dropping down the middle of a field right behind the command center. But it was so profound. It helps us understand. When Bob Lazar was given this craft to work on, it was like how do you parallel engineer? Not how do you reverse engineer. How do you figure out through prosaic conventional human technology how to recreate the effect? And obviously that will give you insight into how these things are flying and what's working. So it totally makes sense. You conduct experiments and you repeat the experiments. Yes. And that's what we have been doing for years is conducting experiments. And there's no off-the-shelf platform or solution. And clearly something here is at play. Like, if you were to bring, you know, I just debated Michael Shermer on the show. I loved it. Great episode. And it was great to see Michael Shermer address these questions directly. Yeah. And these topics. Because there's nothing you could say. Well, don't hold this against me, but every month I read cover to cover Skeptic Magazine. You do do that. I think that's really cool. So I have for the last, probably longer than owning Skinwalker Ranch, long before owning Skinwalker Ranch, I made it a point with my visits to Barnes & Noble on the weekend to pick up the latest skeptical journals, Skeptical Inquirer and Skeptic Magazine, because I appreciated a lot of the content there. I appreciated that it challenged some of my beliefs or some of the grand claims that are made on a regular basis in our culture. And I welcome critical thinking. In fact, I enjoy critical thinking as a necessary part of progression. And as I mentioned, I was a skeptic. By the time I acquired the ranch, I was convinced personally that there was no validity to the paranormal, the UFO claims. I had lost my faith in organized religion at the time and had grown greatly discouraged. And I was consuming a lot of skeptical material and feeding that part of my curiosity and doing my due diligence. But I was wrong. To be honest, it's been humbling because I've come full circle. I've had to admit that I was wrong. I had to admit that there are things that I misjudged. I mean, if you watch the show, there's just an overwhelming amount of evidence that you provide. Now, I think what some skeptic could come in and say is like, is this all perfectly repeatable? Maybe not, because there seems like there's an intelligence on the other side. Sure, we're not in control. It's a game of cat and mouse, exactly. But there's certain, I mean, one example is you find this cow, you know, it's been totally mutilated. I believe the blood has been, you know, sucked out of it. I think you bring in Linda Moulton Howe. Yeah, actually, the calf had died under mysterious circumstances. Perfectly healthy calf. Hey, y'all, I'd recommend not to touch it until we see if it's radioactive or not. It was unusual. It had been in great health and then had just killed over. And upon investigating the CAF, the equipment, in fact, Thomas Winterton's smartphone started completely going haywire. And then Caleb Benches, our security, who is actually active law enforcement, his smartphone started completely malfunctioning upon entering that field and that space. Well, one thing that is an important side note that may or may not have relevance, but I think it's interesting. They had different types. One had a Samsung device and one had an iPhone. So different operating systems, both behaving strangely at the same time. And then upon testing the calf, it was really interesting. We couldn't find any known reason for what had happened, But we pulled up the surveillance footage to find out what happened. At what time did it collapse? Did it go down? And was there anyone there? Was there any person that was involved or another animal? What may have led to it? And we captured on camera an object. I can't help but also notice that there's something happening here. Oh, there was that there. The moment that that object appeared above the cow, the cow was reacting. Yes. And I'm telling you, it was right, right at the time that this calf went down just south, just footsteps from Homestead 1, from the command center. That's a good example where it's like that object isn't one of your drones. You know what I mean? No. And it's moving. I mean, we had several frames of it. It's not a bug. I mean, we had several high-speed camera experts take a look at it. It's honestly an unidentified flying object. And radiation is coming off of the cow even after it's dead. Correct. Now, going back to the earlier accounts during the Bigelow era, My predecessor, they did have many cattle mutilation events where on the property, on Skinwalker Ranch, what was a perfectly healthy animal ended up being dissected and drained of its blood. And no trace evidence. No evidence, no blood surrounding or underneath. No evidence of anyone coming or going. being done in broad daylight, right there in the middle of the field, right under everyone's noses, right under their noses. And I've seen the reports. One thing I appreciate about Robert Bigelow's investigation is he brought in experts as well. He had a veterinarian or he was an expert, a doctor, Dr. Ronette, who actually was brought in immediately to conduct their necropsy on the animals and was on call and provided an extensive analysis. And the animals seem inedible. They're obviously scavenger animals that generally would eat the carcass of a dead animal. And some of these animals seem just untouched and they don't decay in normal ways. You have a biologist, Ben Woodruff, who documents a lot of this stuff. Oh, yeah. That's the thing. The rate of decay and decomposition on Skinwalker Ranch is dramatically different than anything that has been observed in nature, typically. What do you attribute that to? That's so strange. We don't know. But it is strange. And that very calf that died under mysterious circumstances with the UFO and all of the equipment malfunctions that we documented, nothing no scavenger activity nothing nothing touched that animal that carcass and even a year later it remained untouched where other animals that die from time to time you know you do see coyotes show up and you you have you know in fact it's it's not uncommon within hours to see every trace of a carcass removed by scavenger activity. But on this ranch, it's unpredictable. I want to talk about the history of the ranch because it is fascinating. Yeah. So let's go back to, you went to Basin. It's on the eastern side of Utah, right? Yeah, northeastern Utah. Northeastern Utah. Let's go back to this conflict between the Navajo and the Utes. Can you describe this and why it's so kind of essential to the story here? Well, the Navajo and the Utes had conflict, and the Utes were siding with the government, with the United States government. The Utes were even selling the Navajo into slavery at that point. And as we've been told, the Navajo ended up being driven away and cursed the property. There was a curse placed on this property. In fact, for generations, the ridge, the Mesa Plateau that runs the expanse of the property from east-west that has been a large focus of our investigation the last few years, surprisingly, was historically called Skinwalker Ridge. And that Skinwalker Ridge moniker, which was conveyed to the Bigelow team and to others, ended up being really the catalyst for referring to the ranch as Skinwalker Ranch. So Skinwalker Ranch derives its name not only from the Native American curse, but the ridge that runs across the property and the lore surrounding it stating that this property was cursed to be forever in the path of the Skinwalker, that this is where these demonic shape-shifting figures would be essentially sequestered, that this would be their dwelling place. And it was funny, the first day I saw this ranch, when I came out to inspect it in tandem with closing on the acquisition back in 2016, you know, I dropped down on the helicopter, and the first time I saw it was coming in from the air, and I was awestruck. at the beauty. I mean, just the beauty of this huge, expansive Red Rock Mesa plateau and waterways that cut through the property, these old homesteads that are kind of hidden in clusters of trees. And as we drop down in the meadow, which is now where we have our heliport, and I've constructed a sophisticated helicopter landing point along with other structures that are part of the monitoring effort there. Bigelow security walks out, greets us, you know, sidearm right there at the ready and proceeds to give us an initial tour of the perimeter of the property. Well, Jesse, one of the most ominous indications that there was something different about this property was the fact that there were these carcasses, there were these animal parts hanging from the fence line. Whoa. And it was kind of gross. To be honest with you, I was like, what? And I asked Bigelow Security, I said, what is the nature of this stuff that's hanging from the fence line? It looks like body parts. It looks like the animal carcasses. And he says, yeah, the Native Americans have been hanging these and blessing these animal bladders to keep the demonic activity on this property and off their property. Whoa. Because three of four sides of this property, they're bounded by Native American tribal. It was like these were like offerings. Yeah. They're hanging and blessed to actually form a spiritual perimeter. And to this day, if you meet anybody from the Navajo tribe and you bring up skinwalkers, they'll often say, don't go there. Well, they don't even want to utter the word. They don't want to speak about skinwalkers. I mean, when I purchased the property, I was told by several local leaders that their people have been told not even to look the direction of this property for generations. For fear that phenomena would follow them. For fear that it would attach. And follow them. So to see mythology or lore turn into reality and actual data points, documented data points today, really indicating there is a reality to the hitchhiker effect. There is a reality to the fact that the phenomena does follow. It does attach itself to those at times who visit the property that are involved with this effort. It's sobering. So did you experience the Hitchhiker Effect? I did. So you came out. We flew you out to Skinwalker in the helicopter. It was fun. Great to give you a briefing. We've had some of your associates in your professional life that came out for a briefing as well, and it was fun to actually brief them and have their eyes on the data. What happened? 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Yeah, so, okay. Had a great time on the ranch. Had a great time with you. I was blown away at all of the cool sensors, instruments, experiments you guys had done. And I was sort of, you know, early in my UFO investigation, you know, world. And I, you know, honestly was coming in somewhat skeptical. I had, you know, just met Lou Elizondo, who was like, you need to pray before you go. And I've heard that from a couple other people. You know, you need to go in with reverence. And I was like, I'll be fine. You know, I still went through the motions, but it was probably, you know, to be a little more vulnerable and introspective. It was at a time in my life where I was probably getting a little ahead of my skis. I was, you know, very interested in investing and making money. And I had these two sides of myself, the nature of reality side. And then this like, you know, just wanting to, you know, climb the ladder. I was very ambitious. And they were very kind of compartmentalized. and I think I was probably kind of, you know, shoving this in the trunk and I wasn't probably giving it its proper due and they weren't fully integrated. And so I'm sure there was some part of me that was, you know, had a little ego, you know. I know. Well, and it's hard not to be enthusiastic and to get – I have to check myself every day. Yes. Because I'm a driven person. Sorry to interject. No, it's – I totally understand. It's the classic kind of, you know, plight of man as you're so curious and you want to know as you know. You know, all this stuff that we're describing here is traditionally thought of as forbidden knowledge. And there are all these myths around these. There's a great book by Roger Shattuck called Forbidden Knowledge. Usually the myths don't end well, but there's a straight and narrow path that you can walk where you can end, you know, can end very well. You know, and so it's a very hard thing to discuss, but I came in probably with not enough reverence. So that would be my take on myself. And, you know, we went. It was an amazing experience. It was so fun to learn about the history and to meet you and to meet the whole team. But nothing crazy happened, right, which is like 90% of cases. Which I tell everyone that comes out to the ranch, don't expect anything unusual to happen. I owned the ranch for six months and had been visiting pretty constantly to get briefed on how the survey work was going before I ever personally saw or experienced anything. And I fully expected that there wasn't anything to it. So you never know. I mean, a tri-field meter did go off. There were a couple things that happened with our phones. So, like, there's definitely some anomalous electromagnetic activity. At the end of our time, we're standing around, you know, about to board the helicopter to go back. And I say, I smell sulfur. I smelled like sulfur or whatever. Oh, really? And I think Dragon, you know, your security guy, he's like, oh, we have this way of testing whether it's real sulfur or if it's, like, kind of more in your mind. so i wear this so that if someone says that they smell something like that we know the whether it's really gas or if it's something happening up here because people that have had instances is anything coming out no okay no so and he was like it doesn't look like there was a gas leak it's not real sulfur i think it's like something that you're tuning into and i was like what and I like forgot about it right right get back to LA where I'm living at the time and I had the worst month of my life I just a string of bad things happening I give you like you know maybe a couple of highlights but um uh I ended up in a in a building actually I went to work early um and I was there like 6 a.m no one was there uh and I was there alone and I'm in the building we work at and an armed gunman runs into the building and so I'm basically alone in this kind of commercial building in LA and uh and there's this armed gunman there and I'm getting calls you know from the company I used to work with being like there's an armed gunman like you know protect yourself you know I'm like wow there's not much we can do for you you know he's in the building and um i ripped the sign off the bathroom door so it looked like this like cabinet and i like locked myself in the bathroom and i think i took a knife in there yeah and i just started praying for my life and that was like a tuesday of this month that was a not that was probably anomalously bad sure but i had a lot of bad days you just had a sequence of events that happened oh it was uh have you ever seen the movie after hours by martin scorsese yeah it was like a you know, that. It was like Dante's Inferno. You know, it was like, whoo, you know, like, okay, another thing, another thing. And I was like, I remember by the end of it, I was just praying to God. I was like, whatever I've done to deserve this, please, I'll change my ways, you know, and then that really helped, and it went away. And, you know, I still probably have, I don't know, I I describe myself as, you know, somewhat agnostic, but I want to experience God. And I would say that that reinforced my belief because, you know, the fact that, you know, praying caused the thing to go away. I was like, whoa. Which speaks to the power of prayer consciousness and a divine, that there is a divine source or a higher power. I think that there good reason to be cautious when approaching these topics My wife and I will never allow any of our children We now all adults to set foot on the property simply because I seen the harm that has come to several people that I love that have been on this property that are part of this investigation or have visited. We're dealing with forces that we don't quite understand, And I think that there is an effort to try to thwart, to try to deceive or halt the investigation. Because I think what we're tapping into, what we're discovering and disclosing to the world, could very well usher in, I think, a new understanding of really our place in it. It's interesting. You know, in a lot of different traditions, if you're trying to get to the sacred knowledge or kind of the holiest of holies, there are demigod beings guarding that knowledge. And there's a resistance to you getting there. And so do you sometimes think about that or this and that context? You know, we have people that approach us, very respected leaders, people that have different perspectives on what is happening. I mean, we've had people that come from various traditions that claim that the data shows that it's a djinn, that what we're dealing with is a djinn or similar phenomena. I mean, every culture has its traditions, has its mythology. But almost all of those cultures have consciousness between man and God. Correct. Correct. Often that mess with our perceptions or as you were talking earlier, I almost was thinking, is this like Descartes' demon? You know, because it's like 360 control of your perception. If you're talking about manipulating time, you know, all things are possible at that point. Yeah. And we're so fragile. I mean, mortality is so fragile. This human experience that we're all part of is, it's delicate. And it's not something to be taken lightly. No, not to be trifled with. And it's interesting that, you know, it really cuts to the kind of meek shell and hair at the earth thing where I remember, you know, when I went, I was speaking to you and Eric and, you know, a lot of the investigators. And they were like, people with bigger egos seem to get hit or tagged more. And so the example you guys brought up was this Hell's Angels chicken. Is it a coincidence he was Hell's Angels? You're asking right. Who was frozen in a catatonic state? Yeah, for 10 minutes. For 10 minutes on a mesa? Yeah, this individual, it was actually at Homestead 3. It was behind Homestead 3. We were out exploring the property, and we all exited this open-air UTV Polaris Ranger. It's still out there. We have to keep it running. It's falling apart. but we had all kind of jumped out of this vehicle to go walk around the other side of Homestead 3, which is the oldest structure on the property. And it's a structure that some people refuse to enter. I mean, my wife will not enter that property. She just does not feel comfortable entering Homestead 3 for whatever reason. We've had other visitors. Trent Reznor, who I love. One of the most... Yeah, he's one of the most intelligent people I know and one of the most talented came out. And we were anxious to have him look at the audio, the anomalous audio data that we had collected and some of the other. You should make a song with the anomalous audio. No kidding. Wouldn't that be amazing? That would be pretty good. And I think even he hesitated, and for good reason. I mean, I think people are very wise to follow their intuition, their promptings. Yes. Yeah, well, maybe I ended up there before. But the Hells Angels. So he was the former president of a large chapter of the Hells Angels who was there as attending security. We all jumped out. After about 10 minutes, we'd realized that he was gone, that he hadn't accompanied us. So I went to go seek him out. As I walked around the back of Homestead 3, and it's kind of high grass. This is October. This is fall. And all of a sudden I had this auditory sensation, like I'd entered either a soundproof room or I'd gone underwater. You know, this same sensation when you cup your ears. And it was very, very strange. And then he came in within sight. I see him out in the distance standing fully upright in the back of this UTV that we had all traveled in out there. And as I continued to walk toward him, I yelled his name, and it was that weird sensation, I remember. It was very similar to yelling underwater. And by the time I came up to him, after shouting his name a couple of times, all of a sudden, instantaneously, right getting within feet of him, all of the sound came, all the ambient noise, everything returned and his eyes fluttered open and he looks down at me and he says, whoa, that was weird. And I, I, I'm like, what was weird? What's happened? What have you been doing? And he says, well, how long have I been, how long have I been here? And I said, well, we all got out. We haven't seen you for the last 10 minutes. and he proceeds to relate that when we all got out of the vehicle, he stood up and was frozen, was unable to move, couldn't open his mouth, couldn't move his head, and everything went black. And the next thing he knew, I was standing before him asking him what was wrong, what was up. And he was shaking his head saying, well, that was weird. And I said, has this ever happened to you? Is this something that you've experienced before in your life? He said, no. Well, the funny thing is, after he returned home, my principal investigator, Eric Bard, followed up with him independently just to check on things and to get his testimony relative to what he had witnessed that day, including the dramatic UFO sightings right in front of us that lasted for about 20 seconds. And he had checked himself into the hospital for weeks upon returning from Skinwalker Ranch. He had been rendered completely immobilized, couldn't get out of bed. Doctors didn't know what hit him, whether it was some powerful, strange virus, but he couldn't move and was hospitalized for weeks immediately following his visit. And to this day, I mean, it's one of those profound data points, experiences. And that day was one of those days where we had those correlations, you know, smartphones malfunctioning, rapid battery depletion, all of our smartphones going from really almost a full charge to zero to this gentleman being rendered catatonic and really out for 10 minutes. We don't know what happened. during that missing time. And just recently you had another cardiac arrest episode. Who is Tom Lewis and what happened to him? Yeah, well, Tom was one of our caretakers. And when we were, you know, simultaneous with actual drilling activity, you know, there below the mesa, right as they were commencing drilling and that signal, that 1.6 gigahertz signal appeared, all of a sudden our caretaker ends up being brought to his knees, has to be run to the doctor, to the hospital. Are you okay? No, I just blacked out. And took him off the property to go get medical attention, and it ended up in the hospital, and they didn't know what caused it. They have a cardiac episode in tandem with the digging activity that was happening and the potential correlation with the signal that appeared. Who knows? I mean, correlation is not causation. That's something we always have to remind ourselves of. Correlation does not mean causation. But when you have enough correlations, you have to start looking at the data through a different lens. Well, you have enough people who work there getting hospitalized in sort of inexplicable ways. Like the Thomas Winterton case, it was like fluid in the back of his head, right? Yeah, his scalp had been separated from his skull. Yeah, like what is that, you know? We've got hundreds of pages of medical data, of research. We actually had a medical expert come in from outside to analyze the material. And it's still unexplained. It's still baffling. And, you know, some of these episodes, you know, we have to be very, very careful. That's why we carry the trifield meters. That's why we monitor the environment. I mean, it's imperative that we're taking data from a multitude of different platforms because we don't know what kind of patterns may emerge that may help us understand what is happening. And it's almost like the ranch itself has an intelligence and has an allergic reaction to the investigators doing certain things. For a while, you couldn't dig. Is that right? And if you did dig, bad things would happen? Yeah, that was what we were told. When I bought the ranch, I was told, you know, when you disturb the earth, negative things happen. That was something that had been passed on. And I, given what I had witnessed personally, I felt like it was necessary to follow that guidance to try to avoid any harm coming to people or anything negative happening. But science investigation requires risk. I'll tell you, Thomas Winterson, who probably has the greatest motivation to be off the ranch. I mean, he has total justification to walk away from this effort over the course of the last 10 years, is insistent on being there and being a constant presence and running the experiments to find out what we're dealing with. Who or what are we dealing with? What is the origin and the agenda associated with the phenomena? And hopefully we're going to get some answers here. And we have. I think we have unveiled discoveries year after year. I think you can state relative to the docuseries, episode after episode, we're showing hard data. We're showing third-party experts going on record with scientific instrumentation and hard data relative to the reality that there is truly strange phenomena occurring on this property. in the medical field there is something called a Herxheimer's reaction and it is curing the body of something but you feel the malady as it's coming out of your body so say you have like a fungal disease you take an antifungal you have this die off effect and your immune response is triggered because you kind of experience the disease over again before it comes out do you think that what some of these people are experiencing because it's fascinating that you know thomas winard and a lot of these people they experience things and then they want to come back you know and i think about like psychedelic experiences and it's often described as like impurities within oneself get excavated and come out yeah do you think there's something to that with this portal You enter the portal and anything ill-intended about you or, you know, maybe a part of yourself that's not fully integrated with the rest, that gets tagged with the bad stuff and then you feel it or something. You know, that may be a valid explanation. I think one thing we have been observing is that the ranch appears to amplify consciousness. Right. Amplify. What does that mean? Heighten your senses. I think it amplifies intent. I mean, those who bring positive have at times said that they felt very positive things happen. Those who bring negative activity or a negative adversarial attitude end up having that visited upon them or that amplified on the property. That's what they call psychedelics, nonspecific amplifiers. So what's an example of a positive thing? Oh, we've had some. I mean, you know, one of our most controversial figures on the ranch is, of course, my head of security for years, Dragon. Yes. Bryant Dragon Arnold. And he's my old mission companion. We served Mormon mission together. He was my trainer for months, my first companion in the field. And we've been good friends for over 30 years as a result of that bonding experience. experience. But he, Dragon, who lost his father and missed his dad, who was his mentor, I think he's had experiences on the property where he's felt his father's presence, where he's felt that in a positive way. It was funny, Dragon was one of those, for years, that didn't see anything, experience anything. He felt like he was repellent to the phenomena, which was interesting. We all would joke about it. And of course, everything comes. Ultimately, you spend enough time there and things happen in the environment that shift you from being a skeptic to an experiencer. I think Most people who have spent time, devoted time on the ranch, have seen that shift from being skeptics or open-minded even skeptics to full-on experiencers. The crew who are dedicated every year to documenting what is happening with the documentary series effort, which is only about 14 weeks out of the year. I mean, we're running the investigation year-round, and a lot of these experts like Pete Kelsey, Chris Roberts, our archaeologist, our ground-penetrating radar experts, they're there. They come back periodically, whether they're our cameras or not, under my guidance and my pocketbook to continue getting data. But it's funny, those individuals have come back, and most of those third-party credentialed experts all leave with data and with firsthand witness that there is something strange going on on that property. Has anybody come in fully skeptical and left completely kind of converted that there's something there? Yeah, many. Many. Numerous. Numerous. I think many people come to the ranch, these experts, actually wanting to debunk it. In fact, it's in their professional interest to bring their science and their technology, their expertise, to find a prosaic natural explanation. It's not in their interest to have their equipment end up being destroyed and them sitting there scratching their heads on camera. These people are coming at great risk. They're putting themselves not only in harm's way physically relative to the phenomena, but they're also putting their reputations on the line. And people don't register that. They all think that it's television that these people are making big bucks. They're not making a bunch of money. I mean, they're being paid a modest stipend or consulting contract to be able to come and share their expertise and perform their work. But most of these people, they're not looking to get famous. They're just performing a function. And they are coming onto the ranch many times as absolute skeptics, bound and determined to show that their approach, that their equipment, that their expertise is going to help us understand that there's a natural prosaic explanation. And they leave, like us, with more questions than answers. I mean, the drone, you look at Sky Elements. You've got one of the biggest drone operators in the planet. They have two Guinness Book of World Records. They put hundreds of drones in the air. They've performed some of the most well-choreographed precision drone exercises, and they've sustained so much damage. We're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage to their equipment, and they've seen it completely outright manipulated on that property. What the heck's going on? It's raining drones over here. Raining drones. Hundreds of drones all tested in the minutes beforehand. Batteries fully charged. All of their operating systems verified to be fully functioning and in sync. And within minutes of launching above the triangle, above the east field, all of them start behaving mysteriously and start dropping like bricks from the sky. I mean, we had one of the most terrifying incidents and experiments with that exercise, where people could have died. I mean, we're talking about these things dropping from hundreds of feet in the sky. It's raining drones. It was something I'll never forget. Has anybody come a skeptic, spent a substantial amount of time at the ranch, and left a skeptic? No one who's spent a substantial amount of time. Okay. To my knowledge, anyone who's spent a dedicated amount of time has left at least acknowledging that their equipment doesn't function, that there's something in the space that is manipulating things and not explained. There is one reporter turned internet troll, Stephen Green. He spent one night on the ranch, and he came in, obviously, with confirmation bias. Yes. And the problem is if you come in with confirmation bias and you are only cherry-picking the data points that are shared with you or those things that you're documenting that support your narrative. Totally. Then you're going to veer that direction. I mean, he completely ignored the testimony of the deputy sheriff, Chris Porritt, who went on record that long before the Shermans, I mean, back to the Myers in the 1980s, he was responding to cattle mutilation events, UFO activity, other high strangeness on the property. This was the original owners of the Myers. Yeah, that owned it for decades. And the Shermans? Jennifer and Edith Myers. The Shermans, and I think, yeah, we don't have to spend too much time on it. But back on reporters, on that journalist in particular, I mean, there are so many data points that were completely ignored because they didn't fit a negative, skeptical narrative. And I don't have a problem with critical thinking or skepticism. I don't. But I do have a problem with cherry-picking the data. I mean, we can do the same thing. Well, it's also like you can, yeah, you can cherry pick and then you can also describe things in a way that makes them seem funny or silly. But I guarantee you he wouldn't want to spend a month on the ranch probably because I think it wouldn't seem so funny or silly then, you know. No. And everyone has a different journey. I, you know, I'm very open and transparent and hopeful that those who look at the data, those who look at the facts, will hopefully learn something from them that will be part of that journey. You mentioned the Myers and the Shermans. The Shermans owned the ranch before Bigelow. And I believe they report seeing this sort of werewolf creature. Yeah, a large direwolf that actually attacked their prized cattle. I mean, they were terrorized by UFOs. They had all sorts of poltergeist-like activity. They had these huge wolf-like creatures that attacked their cattle. They shot it with a shotgun at close range and it survived. Yeah, a 12-gauge shotgun and survived, just walked off casually. We have all of these reports that were actually ultimately documented by the Deseret News, by a journalist, Zach Van Eyck is his name. He's still active. and his story actually was brought to the attention of Robert Bigelow and led to Mr. Bigelow flying in and acquiring the ranch, meeting with the Sherman family, being convinced that it's absolutely real, that what they were experiencing was real. I believe they showed him a lot of evidence. They had VHS tapes as well, from what I've been told, and we're talking within a rapid, rapid period of time. And the Bigelow team lifted up three observation towers. We call them bait pens or observation towers. You've got these three observation towers that still sit ominously across the landscape of the property. He brought in a security trailer, a four-bedroom, double-wide, for the security and scientists to reside in that were cycling through. And they started taking data. I mean, I'd mentioned the veterinarian, the gentleman that was brought in to investigate the cattle mutilations and conduct the necropsies and provide those reports. I mean, it was a very serious effort, the first of his kind under NIDS. And I meant not a courageous. We stand on the shoulders of giants. I have to give credit where credit is due. Robert Bigelow had the courage to come out and spend his own money, time, and put his reputation on the line with his resource and his people to lock down this piece of property, this ranch, and really study it. So fascinating. Yeah, you have NIDS, National Institute of Discovery Sciences, in the 90s, early 2000s, and then that kind of morphs into this officially funded program called OSAP, which is funded by Harry Reid, where you have Bigelow Aerospace officially studying the phenomenon at Skinwalker Ranch. This is written about in the book, in which book? The Secrets of Skinwalker Ranch? No, it's actually in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. Sorry, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. There's a book that was written just a few years ago by Colm Kelleher, George Knapp, and another individual who'd actually been part of the military. The James Likatsky, maybe? Yeah, and they go on record relative to the Pentagon-funded black budget program that spanned years with tens of millions of dollars focused on documenting the reality of the phenomena and really the national security implications. Because let's face it, I mean, any place on the planet, especially here on the United States soil that is seeing this frequency of activity, that defies any explanation. Apparently there's still stuff that might be classified about it. Peter Levendo is a past guest on the show, and he described a meeting with Chris Mellon and Hal Puthoff where Skinwalker Ranch comes up, and he has to leave the meeting because he doesn't have the proper clearances. We asked about something concerning Skinwalker Ranch and an appearance at Skinwalker Ranch and the equipment that was there. They all got silent. they suddenly all stopped talking. And that was all he had to say. Skinwalker. For Skinwalker. Why? So clearly, things were learned and gleaned, I imagine, in that time frame that were sensitive. And that book is fascinating because they have this guy, I think his name is Axelrod. He's a pseudonym, and he sort of studies the phenomena. But he was the chief office of naval intelligence investigator on the Nimitz case in 2004. and he's showing up at Skinwalker Ranch and studying this stuff. Some people online have speculated that that might be Jay Stratton who went on to run the UAP Task Force, which was the official investigation program that provided all the data that David Grush ended up looking into, and he took it further than anybody else on that UAPTF and blew the whistle that he thinks there's been this multi-decade-long, multi-generational reverse engineering and crash retrieval program of UFOs. So it's such an interesting history, and Skinwalker Ranch is at the center of UFO history. It's not some ancillary, just civil side thing. It's really kind of the epicenter. It's the center of gravity, whether we like it or not. And it's not because we're trying to sensationalize it. It's just a fact. If there isn't another property, there's no other location like this where you have dozens of government, scientists, military researchers, all brought together over years to study the reality of the phenomena. And even though that program ceased in 2013, just a few years before the transfer to me, those individuals that were part of that program have been forever changed. There are individuals that visited the ranch under that program that refused to ever set foot on the property ever again, that have refused to come out. I mean, even Mr. Bigelow has refused to come out. Really? Never wants to set foot on the property. In fact, he doesn't even want to be asked. Why? You'll have to ask him. Okay. It's not my story to tell. Sure. George Knapp and others that are closer to Mr. Bigelow have discussed some of his potential motivations. It's a fact. It's in the public domain. I got very disturbed toward the end, and I realized, holy crap. Hitchhikers. Well, yeah. So hitchhikers being that you take things home with you. Does that give you pause, hearing that? Hearing that a guy with a lot of resources like you have investigated this over decades, and he came out being like, I don't want to go back. Well, he had such negative experiences. Yeah. It impacted his family. You talk about the hitchhiker effect made manifest in such a negative way, and his story may be one of the most profound. Does that make you think twice? Sure. Yeah. especially the last couple of years, the last two years, every time I fly out there with my brother for a briefing, anytime I'm on that property, I look at it differently because of the experiences that I've had and how much it has been brought home to roost. But investigation at Skinwalker Ranch is not for the faint of heart. And I've found that it's had a very real physical impact on people's lives, including mine. What did Bigelow say to you when he gave you the keys to the ranch? Did he say, good luck? Well, he knew I was a skeptic. I mean, I thought I was truly going to debunk the property. I didn't think there was any validity to the claims, and I actually intended to donate it to the Boy Scouts of America for scouting programs. I loved scouting growing up, was an Eagle Scout, along with my best friend, Chris Lee. We both got our Eagle Scouts together, and I thought, what an incredible place. I mean, it'd be great to have a piece of property in the basin to donate to that effort. I was on the board of the National Parks Council at the time. And I really just wanted to be satisfied that there wasn't anything unusual or negative going on there and intended to donate it for that use. And, of course, after six months of owning it, I went from being a skeptic to an experiencer. And I know that this is real. We have hard data demonstrating that. and it's not for the faint of heart. This is not a place that you let the public in casually. There's a reason why we have a military-grade gated entrance and a guard post there that actually people have to check in with. And there's a reason why we have over 80 surveillance cameras and multi-physics boxes with edge processing, and we have a data center on site that is processing terabytes of data. It's not for a television docuseries. It's not just for some sensational bullshit, ghost hunters-esque effort. This is a real-world frontier science investigation that is documenting the reality of the phenomena, I think, better than anything else. And from the Bigelow days, you have all these real scientific papers, these dirts coming out about biologically traversable wormholes and quantum teleportation from really top scientists. I mean, you had Jim Lekatsky, who we mentioned earlier, who was a DIA rocket scientist. You have Eric Davis, who's as deep as anyone on kind of frontier propulsion modalities. He's written a book called Frontiers of Propulsion Science, where he basically goes through, you know, the gamut, like every single, you know, exotic propulsion modality. And so these are serious guys. Did Bigelow, you know, note your skepticism and say, oh, you'll see? Yeah, he said, good luck with that. I remember him saying something like, good luck with that. And I loved all of our interactions. In fact, he's quite an interesting figure. I really enjoyed visiting him down in his element in North Las Vegas. He has a world-class aerospace compound and great success in the commercial real estate industry, in the hospitality industry that I respect. And I mentioned this earlier. I mean, we stand on the shoulders of giants. If not for his courage and his own curiosity and being willing to fund frontier efforts, I wouldn't have the privilege of being the steward of this property. It would have never been brought to my attention. And frankly, there wouldn't be an effort, a disclosure effort like this going on in the public eye. And even though our efforts are vastly different, it's apples and oranges. My investigation in the last 10 years is on a completely different scale and level. Those initial efforts, those foundational investigative efforts still inspire and guide. I find his trajectory very interesting as well, where he, I think, probably starts off a little more nuts and bolts interested, you know. And now you have George Knapp testifying before Congress and others, you know, saying this publicly, that Lockheed Martin was trying to divest itself of UFO material in 2008 to Bigelow Aerospace. And they're even naming a guy, Jim Ryder, who is a VP of Lockheed Martin Space Systems, who is in charge of this. And there's a speech that Jim Ryder gives that's available online where he's talking about devas and fairies and jinn. And he's talking about extrasensory perception and the veil thinning. And is that veil between what we call devas and fairies and mankind separating and being more clear? And so it's this very spiritual guy working at Lockheed Martin where clearly he's privy to knowledge beyond what we think of as the scientific frontier. And then you have people naming him as the guy in charge of the UFO program, which is trying to divest itself of material to Bigelow Aerospace. So you think of Bigelow in the context of nuts and bolts. And then now he's funding essays about life after death. Right. He seems to have kind of walked a more mystical path at the end of his life. Right. And I'm curious about that trajectory. That's interesting to me. Yeah, it's consciousness studies. I mean, he's shifted his focus to consciousness-related studies. I love some of the work that has been done and the insights drawn from that. I find it really interesting. It's funny. There's a book, Dan Brown book, who wrote The Da Vinci Code. It's called The Secret of Secrets. Have you read it? No, I haven't. It's a fantastic book. Okay. It takes place in Prague and deals with these topics. Really? what happens when we die, the nature of consciousness, which ties into what is the nature of reality itself. Yes. And I love so much of the new thought and effort in these areas. Yeah. I think it's all interconnected. So when people ask me, is it aliens? Do you think it's aliens, beings from other worlds, We're interdimensional, multidimensional. Is it time travel? Are we seeing time travelers, people coming back, our future selves watching us? Or is it spiritual? Are we dealing with angels and demons or some type of advanced consciousness? I think it's all the above. I think what we're seeing here, just as much as I've witnessed the nuts and bolts, I mean, what took me from being a skeptic to an experiencer was actually seeing what can only be described as a physical craft. I mean, a flying saucer 100 feet above the mesa in broad daylight right in front of us that perform maneuvers and operated in a way that just defies any conventional explanation. And it, I mean, you could see, it was late in the afternoon, you could see the sun kind of reflecting, glinting off of, you know, the side of it. And it was very real and it was witnessed by all of us. I mean, we were sitting there, multiple witnesses. And this was immediately following, of course, all of the electromagnetic anomalies, the rapid battery depletion, the acute medical episode. and it was game-changing. It's funny how something that only spanned 20 seconds' time changed my entire worldview and prompted me to question these things and frankly start pouring millions of dollars at the time into the infrastructure and the investigative tools to be able to document a day. So I think there is definitely a physical aspect of the phenomena that is very real, but there's also a metaphysical. There is another aspect to it, and there's good reason behind calling it unidentified aerial phenomena as far as UFO because UAP almost conjures up a little bit broader spectrum. Don't you think of? For sure. what is being documented and observed. Yeah, it's not just a craft. It's just a phenomenal art. It's a light. There is a diversity. It was so funny. A couple of months after I bought the ranch, so I bought the ranch on April Fool's Day 2016, and then by June, funny side note, By June, I was seeing photo images of craft of objects above the property that were highly unusual. You know, when checking the flight data for the Uinta Basin during those time stamps, during those periods of time, there was no commercial or private air traffic that was even remotely close. and the first image looked almost like a Millennium Falcon, was a disc-like object that was glowing. The second object that came a few weeks later was different structure, completely silent, observed by three witnesses, my ranch security and surveyor along with my caretakers at the time. So there's a diversity of objects, of craft, if you want to call them craft. There's a diversity of those things that are appearing, which speaks to there being potentially different propulsion systems at play, completely different origins and agendas. The idea that we're living in a cosmic zoo, that this planet is, for whatever reason, being monitored, is being closely watched, even manipulated by a diversity of beings, of intelligences with different origins and agendas, some malevolent, some not so. Do you ever flirt with the idea that the Navajo had it right? Have you looked into their sort of witchcraft tradition? I think there's validity to every tradition. I mean, I am not going to dismiss any respected cultural tradition. Because I was doing a little Googling, and it was like talking about luminous objects, these beings, skinwalkers specifically going after animals. And it was like all these things that you're observing on the ranch. So I found that fascinating. Yeah, the ancients were on to something. I mean, they weren't speaking ignorantly. I think they were very advanced. I mean, we've seen the evidence that society thousands of years ago before Christ, I mean, they were developing computing devices. I recently went to Athens, Greece, to see the Antithecera mechanism. Have you ever seen that in the Athens Museum? I've seen it on my computer. I mean, this is hundreds of years before Christ, and the technology that went into developing this device that was recovered from this ancient shipwreck, you just think, oh, how many years of engineering expertise went into that, and who's to say that that was even the most advanced of its time? It could have been one of the more rudimentary, one of the more basic computing artifacts that actually could track the lunar phases of very sophisticated devices. That's incredible. I think we're still trying to understand our history. Yes. And the history of the world, I think, so much has been buried. I agree. I mean, like, look at the pyramids and the fact that you need, you know, I think one of the leading, you know, researchers on how it was built is a guy, John Pierre Houdin. And it's like the fact that you have to go to some sort of internal ramp and, you know, it's like external. and then the incline is too steep at a certain point and then it has to go internal and then you have to put the capstone on. It's like we are contorting ourselves into all sorts of crazy gymnastic positions just to explain something that was supposedly built in 2500 BC. Maybe it was built older than that. You see these Italian scientists that have advanced new evidence? I've had them on, yeah. We have measured approximately over one kilometer of depth. So the base of the pyramid to something that is located at the bottom. So eight pillars, you know, in this shape of an energy grid. Yeah, beyond, yeah, they've used synthetic aperture radar, Doppler tomography, and this kind of specific inversion method that he's, you know, the software. We're quite familiar with it. Oh, there you go. Interesting. Okay. Maybe they'll come out to Skinwalker Ranch. Wouldn't it be funny if they were involved with our effort in applying their technology to help us understand the nature of the landscape? I love it. Wouldn't that be interesting? Wouldn't that be interesting? All right. Well, stay tuned. That's exciting. Yeah. No, we're not screwing around. We really are bringing in the leading experts. Well, you need that technology because there's something under the mesa. Yeah, there definitely is. There's something under the mesa. I mean, to be extracting material that is manufactured, that's engineered from hundreds of feet within the mesa. Yeah, heat-resistant ceramic tiles. Yeah, with electromagnetic signatures. With electromagnetic signatures that seem to be self-repairing at times, that look like maybe tiles that you would see on like a space shuttle or something. So that is under the mesa, and you have these two boreholes, and you keep hitting metal, and you have exotic elements. You have europium and tellurium down there. So what is down there? Well, it's frustrating people all over the world right now. So we have millions of viewers, millions of enthusiasts that are quite frustrated because they want to see us blow up the mason, just get to it. And the reality is we can't do that. We have to conduct this effort like you would a medical biopsy, a very sensitive, delicate medical biopsy, because you don't want to destroy the very material that you hope to extract and be able to study. So imagine if there's a stargate within the Mesa, if there's some advanced technology that is behind or involved with the phenomena that we're seeing manifest above and below the property, as above, so below, as the Masonic symbol on the property from ancient times seems to denote. you don't want to damage the very thing that you hope to unearth. Even if it's something as simple as a garage door opener equivalent to another dimension. Right. Why would you want to, if that's ultimately what lies within the mesa that we're studying there on the ranch, we want to be very careful. And so we've used the most advanced ground penetrating radar. And what have you found? There is material. One of my biggest takeaways from doing this show over the last few years is that the biggest revelations sometimes come from the smallest specific details. UK hacker Gary McKinnon describing a spreadsheet of non-terrestrial officers on a US government database. 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It was because there were rumors going back to the Bigelow era and even before going back to the Myers that there was a cave system, that there were tunnels, that there was something covered up, that there had been a cover-up relative to some type of underground structure. And so we thought, well, let's debunk it. I mean, because part of our scientific effort is to chase down these claims and to either validate them, see if there's any truth to them, or be able to dismiss it and move on to the next experiment, the next effort within our investigation. Well, we end up bringing in the experts in ground penetrating radar, and they're like, yeah, there's something strange here. In this region of the Mesa, there's this unusual material in these voids. So what do we do? Well, we start boring. We start drilling. Well, every drilling expert, and I'm talking every one of them that we brought out, has had dramatic equipment malfunction. They've had their drill bits. I mean, these are some of the most impervious drill bits. Tungsten carbide steel that have been rendered completely damaged and unusable. These gentlemen that are performing these drilling exercises, they do this all over the world. They go through solid granite. They go through mountains. And you found a nickel. It has been one of the most baffling parts of our research. And then, yeah, not only are we extracting engineered material from hundreds of feet within the mesa, but we recently brought out a 1964-aged nickel that has patina on it that was somehow deposited there, which the archaeologists that we've had involved, who is a credentialed archaeologist, his name is Chris Roberts, reminded us that it's not uncommon at surveys or archaeological dig sites that those professionals, upon concluding that work or in the midst of it, they'll drop a coin with the current date in there just to kind of mark their territory, if you will. So we have the territory seemingly marked, and then we pull up the aerial survey record of the ranch. to try to see what was happening. Was there something going on? Was there someone disturbing the earth at that time? Is there any evidence? And do you probably, do you remember what Dr. Taylor and Eric Barth found? So here's all three of them beside each other. And you can see that there's a significant spot that it thinks has been dithered or smoothed with some sort of filter in the 1969 image that's not in the other images. The photos were doctored, but specifically in this kind of teardrop shape, which is where the material seems to be from the ground penetrating radar. Well, and the aerial record is largely void. It's been deleted from, strangely, 1964 to 1969. So the mystery deepens. I will say every time we get answers, we get more questions. Well, am I wrong that the subplot to all of this is that there is a UFO under the mesa at Skinwalker Ranch? We'll see. I think definitionally, you know, UFO involves flying, but it's kind of a UFO. You got material of a different density spotted by ground penetrating radar. You have Europium tellurium metals found. And Europium, I believed, was mentioned by David Grush as well in his own investigations. I talked to people who really did analyze this stuff from the real deal stuff, and it's super weird. It's like heavy element, you know, Europium, Californium stuff. It's like in these atomic arrangements that make like no sense. You know, this is through X-ray diffraction. So you have that data point, and then you have the fact that it's like as above, so below. you have like the blob and the, you know, this like almost like field above the thing. Well, we have what we call the bubble. The bubble, yeah. We have this field over the blob. I mean, we did capture from multiple cameras an unexplained mass that was actually documented in tandem with the rockets being destroyed and some of those launches above the triangle. but you also have this field or what many of my people have been referring to as the bubble that has been mapped using LIDAR and other platforms to actually maybe explain that there's something going on. It actually encompasses a big part of the property. You can call it a force field. You can call it a region of the property that has a sustained... It's an invisible, roughly spherical energy anomaly formally identified and named in Seasons Mix, believed to extend both above and below ground and treated by the team as the likely unifying explanation for many previously separate phenomena, GPS failures, signal interference, instrument malfunction. Correct. You launch rockets at it and it'll bounce off the boundary of this sort of thing. Repeatedly. And that's the thing. With scientific investigation, you repeat the experiments to get repeated data and all of those collective data points to help us map this region and this field effect. It's really baffling. And it does cause one to question whether what is within, you know, whatever is within the MESA, you know, it could be the cause or it could be involved with it. It's like you have a force field around this UFO object or something. Well, it seems to be a defense mechanism potentially because we've seen equipment destroyed. We've seen equipment malfunction. And when we're probing the bubble in this region, we see UAP. We see unidentified aerial phenomena appear. Almost as if on call. Almost like we're being monitored or warned. and then you have the covert military surveillance I mean when you have Black Hawk helicopters unmarked Black Hawk helicopters showing up in the middle of the night in the middle of an experiment during a time when you have a NOTAM you have a notice to airmen that people shouldn't be flying within the airspace that we're conducting experimental activity and we have unknown craft that descend upon the property that are not transponding, that appear to be menacing, and not even the Attorney General or the Governor can get answers. That just compounds the mystery, in my mind. What do you think these unmarked helicopters are doing, and who are they acting on behalf of? I don't know. I think it's somehow being tasked, I believe, by some faction of the military-industrial complex, some entity or entities that are involved with these topics. And I think that there's a greater concern that has emerged. Even within months of us pulling this material out of our drill site on the Mesa, all of a sudden an oil and gas company appears, ramrods, permits through, So even with us filing notice, filing notice that we are not in agreement with it, that it compromises our investigation, the county goes ahead in spite of our notice and our filing and grants them a permit right above our drill site, right on the border of my property. And they descend on the property with millions of dollars worth of equipment and personnel. And it is just the most reckless, aggressive effort ever. Do you think there's some cutout? I don't think it's coincidence. Do you think there's some cutout shell company or extension of some? Or they're being used as a front for some diabolical effort to extract the same material that we are probing for or to compromise the nature of our investigation. And that's what pisses me off. I'll tell you what pisses me off the most over the course of the last year is after a decade of pouring the resources into this effort and having some of the leading scientists and engineers on the planet involved with documenting the reality, all of a sudden, right when we're actually extracting hard evidence of engineered material that is out of place, out of time, all of a sudden, here comes some other third-party enterprise right on top of us. that proceeds to aggressively drill. And we have a legal action currently. I don't know if that will prevail. I mean, I just, not only has it disrupted, especially the investigation and our quiet enjoyment, but I think it is highly suspicious. It's not coincidental. The adjacent property owner that leased this property to the north owns over 1,000 acres. Why would they situate this operation on roughly the postage stamp, the 10 acres that is literally closest right on my border and right there closest proximity to our drill site? So there's a lot of things that are going to come out in the weeks and months to come, I hope. that will help us get some answers. But I'll tell you, the plot thickens. And it's real. This is not bullshit. We're not making this up. We're not sensationalizing anything. You just have to sit back and watch. And there are too many disturbing things that are happening around our investigation. I still can't get over the fact that there's this force field around this object underground. And then so that's like kind of blocking interference from, you know, rockets to signals. To drones. We've even had fixed-wing aircraft that actually document that there's something, that their instruments go haywire. Even the helicopter. I mean, we've tasked the helicopter with performing some of these, I think, pretty advanced surveys. And right there at the edge of the bubble, at the edge of this region, there is this field. There is this effect. And so there's a defense in the air and then there's a defense on the ground where if you dig, things seem to happen as well. So it's like this object. I don't know. This is like – reality is crazier than fiction. Yeah, it's right out of some Stephen King novel. It's a Stephen King novel, and you know how this novel ends? It's like some pure-of-heart kid or something unlocks it. It's like you have all these military guys, and then somebody who's just hapless and walks in and unlocks the treasure. Who knows? It's like the end of E.T. when they discover E.T. They finally find E.T., and all of the shadowy operatives come in, and descend on the property and, you know, you hope that there's always going to be some positive outcome. I'm, right now, I'm more determined. I'm more inspired by the reality and the data that we have collected, that we've presented transparently to the public. I mean, we've allowed the public a peek behind the curtain like no other effort. But it's interesting to me, the show is so good and it's so transparent. And then it's interesting to me that, you know, I had Bob Lazar in here earlier and I was, I think this didn't make it into the cut because we talked for a long time and it was, you know, less relevant to his story. But we talked about the show. We were talking about you because I'm sure, and didn't he get, he bought Skinwalker Ranch right around that time too, right? Bought Skinwalker Ranch right around that time. Yeah, I think he was convinced that they're all kind of connected. And I was like, the subplot, the whole show is amazing. And the subplot to it is that there is a UFO under the mesa. And I was like, why don't people make that explicit connection? And you guys don't necessarily do that. You lead people maybe to that. We're led by the data, not an inherited narrative. Yeah, well, that's cool. That's something that Eric Bard has been. You can be more sensationalist than you are. Oh, ten times more. If this wasn't grounded in absolute truth, which is my deal with the History Channel, which they have honored. I mean, I was only willing to do this series, to come out of the shadows and go public, if it was all grounded in facts, in truth. Nothing can be manipulated, contrived. Nothing can be fabricated relative to the docuseries. Or not only my reputation, but the reputation of all of the incredible people that are involved would be compromised. And it's not worth it. No amount of money, no amount of whatever notoriety or fame is ever worth compromising your reputation or your integrity. No, and it's like when you have people going to the hospital and, you know, serious health adverse events. It's like you're not faking any of this stuff. No, that's not for television. No. When Dragon is immediately evacuating our caretaker from the site in the middle of an experiment because of a cardiac episode, and that whole sequence of events plays out on camera because that's my deal. We're transparently allowing our investigation to be documented for months of the year and to be televised. And some of it's awkward. I mean, some of it isn't perfect. Some of our experiments are inconclusive. This is a human effort. But to see very real disturbing things play out on camera, it's sobering. And when you mention this oil and gas, you know, maybe front, clearly they have ulterior motives. I think of this former director of NSA research, Eric Hazeltine, who I had on my show. He wrote a quote unquote fiction book. I think it was called Out of Time. And my belief, this is me saying this, I think he hid some truths in it. You know that gritty texture of reality is how weird it is. There's a lot of the intelligence world in this because, you know, they say right about what you know. I'm a neuroscientist and I was a spy. And so it's really an espionage novel, too. And it's all about this forbidden archaeological artifact that is very anachronistic in that it doesn't make sense for its time that it was found. And it's sort of advanced, but it's ancient. And you have essentially these modern mafia gang wars. It is the wild, wild west as far as finding the thing, selling it on the black market. And that's what this feels like. It's like you're reporting on this stuff transparently and in the kind of open source world. And then I'm sure, I mean, you've got to think that, like, CIA and stuff is tracking what you're finding. I mean, someone, when you've got the National Science Foundation's $50 million Gulfstream V jet being caught multiple times conducting very sophisticated survey work at over 40,000 feet directly above the triangle. Yeah. Come on. And you've got the governor, that it happens to be occurring on the day that you have the former governor of the state of Utah there for a briefing to be involved in an experiment. I mean, at what point do we show some respect to the fact that there's something going on and that there is definitely a cast of characters involved with monitoring what is happening at the ranch? You're probably being tracked by the government and by random private interests. So you're like 360 surrounded. Or a special compartmentalized. Or a special compartmentalized interest, you know, and waved and bigoted special access programs, subject matter experts. Yeah, beyond any accountability. I'm sure. You have access to resources that we can only dream of. And did you first heard about the ranch through Hal Put Off and Kit Green? I did. Yeah, they were my senior science advisors with a former endeavor that we had shut down, that we had terminated. We should talk about that because I think it shows your skeptical inclination going into Skinwalker Ranch was come about in an honest way. Yeah, in 2010, Dr. Puthoff and Dr. Green were part of the science advisory board for an effort called Motion Sciences, where I had basically raised millions of dollars of our own money and a closely held group to test and validate certain claims involving gravitational physics and over unity energy. What some might proverbially call anti-gravity. Correct. The figure that was involved in that was an early Internet pioneer that I had worked with and represented as a young commercial real estate broker. And there seemed to be great validity in a lot of the approaches or at least the theory behind it. And so we ended up converting a portion of my private hangar facility at the Provo Airport into kind of a mini Stark Industries, kind of a mini advanced engineering laboratory for testing and validating these claims and really developing the devices and the scientific platforms to test the theories out. That's wild. With empiricism. And we had a world-class science advisory board involved with that. Long story short, we ended up debunking it. We ended up proving that the core claims did not hold weight. We could not repeat any effects. And the approach that we were taking to what was referred to as the rectification of co-moving angular momentum using force-processed gyroscopic mechanisms was not working out. We weren't getting the results. But Al and Kit were aware of this and also interested in investigating it. They were monitoring the effort, and they were our trusted science advisors, or two of our most trusted science advisors. Joe Furmage is the tech guy. He was my partner at the time. He has an interesting history. Yeah, it was unfortunate. I ended up having to terminate him in that first year. I know things went south with him, but he seemed earnestly interested in making progress on the phenomenon. I believe he started this group called InterNASA, which was based on the Academy of Arts and Sciences. Sure. And he tried to reinvent himself a number of times. And he's, it's an unfortunate chapter, and he's a tragic figure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Was very smart in his day. Maybe there'll be a redemption arc, you know. Not holding your breath. Never. No, I actually ended up shutting down the whole operation and was frankly so... disappointed and convinced that all of the topics that were inspiring this research, that it was all bunk. I felt like if people applied more critical thinking and the scientific method, they'd be able to prove that there are no mysteries, that there's a natural prosaic explanation for all that we see, that we think, may be unusual in this world. And I completely turned skeptic for good reason. And I'd done my homework. I thought, you know, all these people, including these scientists, that actually claimed that there was validity to these topics, I thought they were nice people, but probably nothing more than the product of groupthink and an adult scientific snipe hunt. In fact, that's what I thought when the ranch was first brought to me. I thought, you know, Skinwalker Ranch just looks like a scientific snipe hunt mixed with groupthink where everyone basically psychs themselves out into thinking that there's something going on unusual that really isn't happening. And Hal and Kit have such an interesting history as well. Hal is sort of, I would say, if you had to pick like a godfather of heterodox UFO science, it would be Hal. Yeah, he's incredible. He's an incredibly bright figure in physics circles. Both Dr. Puthoff and Dr. Green I hold in high regard, and those that they surround themselves with. I mean, Dr. Gary Nolan I have great respect for. I mean, incredible people who put their personal lives and professional reputations on the line. And I'm thankful that they trusted me, that they reached out to me with the opportunity to meet with Mr. Bigelow. They knew I had grown skeptical, that I was not a believer, that I was in a different phase of my life. but they knew I could be trusted, and they knew that I would have integrity. They also knew that I was a collector of artifacts, of cultural artifacts. I don't think they ever really believed that I was going to bring resources. Thank you. You rock. I don't think. That man did. Bless you. Of course. You're a good man. I don't think that those science advisors or even Bigelow believed that I was going to bring the resources and expertise to the problem. Because I expressed my skepticism right out of the gates. And I was holding it all in secret. I had no intention of ever going public with this. In fact, I had great motivation to have everyone under confidentiality agreements. I did not want my ownership of this property and any potential association with these topics to compromise my day job, my professional. I think you're doing the right thing. I also think you're doing the right thing from the vantage point of you have all these interests, some not so savory likely, who are really curious about what you're doing. And if you were doing all of this not in public, that could kind of be bad. And I think the fact that it's fully transparent and that you have these 24-7 Panopticon live feeds going is kind of immunity for you in some ways. Well, we have nothing to hide. And if anyone tries to intercede to disrupt the investigation, it's going to be caught on camera. Like this mysterious oil and drilling effort that descends on the – I'm like, are you kidding? You're going to really completely ignore all of my public filings against this effort and not respond intelligently to them? And you're going to just ramrod through the permits? There's going to have to be some accountability. This is wrong. It's completely wrong. especially given the decades of diligence and work that has been focused on this effort in the public eye. And if there is an intelligence within this object, it's definitely not going to take a liking to whatever their ramrodding activity. You would think, but they've been able to get away with it. Who knows what is really at play and how the intelligence that we're dealing with is operating operating and how they perceive it or it perceives it. Again, we're just scratching the surface, I think, of understanding the nature of what is happening. I think we have more now than ever before. I mean, the way that we've advanced the investigation and the point that we're at right now is so far beyond what I think anyone else has been able to accomplish. I think now we just have to remain diligent and brace ourselves. You mentioned Kit Green earlier. He's a fascinating character. For me, he's like, I would guess, somebody who knows as much about the phenomenon as anyone who's kind of public facing. He ran the CIA's quote unquote weird desk for a long period of time. do you think he knows a lot about the phenomenon more than you know maybe maybe a little more than meets the eye and as kind of an extension of that question has anybody showed up to the ranch where they feel one step ahead of you and you're you kind of just you feel a little resonance you see it in the eyes and you're like this person knows a whole lot and we're kind of piecing it together but they might have a little bit more of a top of the pyramid view already absolutely Okay. Yes. I have great respect for Dr. Green. He's a good man. A good man. I have great respect for Dr. Puthoff and all those that have joined our effort over the years. Dr. Taylor has been an incredible resource and confidant. I mean, and an unlikely advocate. and team member. I mean, when Dr. Taylor flew out to the ranch with me for the first time, he was an absolute skeptic. I don't know if people remember that, but he didn't think that there was any validity to these claims. He was brought in by the History Channel at their request to challenge all of the claims, and I was open to it. I felt like he's a credentialed physicist. I'd seen some of his work publicly, and he was the one exception I made. I was not interested in having any Hollywood casting call or bringing anyone else in other than my core team that I have decades of friendship, of trust built with. I didn't want that circle of trust, that integrity compromised. But I felt bringing in an outside party, a credentialed physicist to help challenge and help drive the discussion and the investigation was valid, was a valid ask. And wow, to see Dr. Taylor's transformation, all you have to do is go back to season one and watch it all the way up to season seven, present day. And it's a mind-blowing progression. In fact, if you go back, we look like just kids. We look like, and we were. We have learned so much in just seven years. I would have never, if we went back in a time machine and you were to say, and you were to list the top 20 things that we've discovered, that we've documented on the ranch, I'd be sitting here with my jaw on the floor because I didn't expect, as much as I knew the phenomena was real and I was an experiencer, you can't schedule this. You can't conjure it up. You can't, we're not in control. Yeah. And you can't predict what will happen or what won't happen. One of the most fascinating things that you guys often see or sometimes see are orbs accompanied by these unmarked black helicopters. And it's almost like there's some coordination going on between humans and the beings or the non-human intelligence. Like they're kind of moving in conjunction with each other. Maybe. It's fascinating. I know we're being monitored. Here's the reality, Jesse. We're being monitored. Right. We are, our nuclear installations are being monitored, are being meddled with by craft, by objects of unknown origin. We've had numerous people go on record, incredible people within those circles that have gone on record. We've seen it on Skinwalker Ranch. craft objects of unknown origin that are violating the airspace indiscriminately, that have no explanation, no conventional explanation. And attending these events, you see electromagnetic anomalies. You see other strange things emerge. Ross Coltart, who I know you have a great interview with, He does all sorts of investigating of this secret mountain at Bradshaw Ranch in Sedona, Arizona. I've been there. Oh, you've been there. There you go. So you probably know more than me, but you see. We did an investigation by Beyond Skinwalker Ranch, Terry. So we, for three seasons, had Beyond Skinwalker that took our investigation to other locations across the country. We added two investigators that were coordinating with both Dr. Taylor and Eric Bard and Bradshaw Ranch. Sedona was a key part of the investigative effort, and at least one of those episodes was really exclusively focused on that effort. I went there myself, and there were some strange things that came up on the cameras. It seems like UFOs, similar to the Mesa Skinwalker Ranch, you have transmedium UFOs going in and out of the mountain. It's restricted space, presumably for this university, but you never see anybody from the university there. Instead, you see nondescript, you know, armed gunmen randomly walking around. You can't walk in. Camera surveillance. Camera surveillance. And it's almost like... In the middle of nowhere. That's right. It's almost like the implication of all of this is because you have a few of these sorts of places all around the world. You have Mount Zale. You have Mount – that's in Australia. You have Mount Hayes in Alaska. You have Mount Perdido in Spain. Shasta. Mount Yangani. Mount Shasta in California. And it feels like you almost have like – alien might be the wrong term, but alien bases on Earth. We'll see. we will see but then what's strange this is the age of disclosure there are too many of us now funding research efforts we are going to bring this forward the fact that you have helicopters escorting some of these UFOs and UAP into the mountains that blows my mind because then it's not just no it's a coordinated effort yes between humans and the beings well and it speaks to the reality of these special access programs There is a part of the military-industrial complex that has been involved with these topics for a long time. And I think that we've seen that manifest at Skinwalker Ranch with respect to some of the monitoring efforts that we have documented. So it's almost like the Legacy UFO program are the beings and humans working in coordination, possibly. Potentially. It's strange, but it's undeniable. There are too many data points to just ignore or dismiss. Am I going to make a definitive claim? No, but are we going to chase down that rabbit hole? Absolutely. Yeah. Speaking about beyond Skinwalker, tell me about Mount Wilson. Interesting things down there. I mean, it was also owned by Mr. Bigelow in tandem with his early years of owning Skinwalker Ranch. They were bought at the same time. Yep, they were acquired. 1996. About the same time, and we uncovered evidence that there was activity. There was a cover-up. I mean, we're talking about fried computers, computer servers that were completely fried and buried deep under the property. There was a rail system of some sort that we unearthed down there. clear evidence that there was a program, that there was a dedicated program and research being conducted, and a lot covered up physically and figuratively. We'd love to return. I've had my hands full, frankly, with my own property. I don't own that property, but it's more a question of bandwidth. I'd love to, but I'm right now continuing to focus the majority of my efforts on conventional business. I'm leading colliers in the Intermountain region, and we have a lot of responsibility to our clients right now, and I take that seriously, just as seriously as I take this investigation, which has an entirely different trajectory and cast of characters, partners involved. You've got a lot on your plate. Speaking of that cast of characters, you mentioned Dr. Travis Taylor. Do you think he has any experience with UFOs in his past? I don't know that I it'd be fun to have Dr. Taylor here to answer that question I will say before Skinwalker Ranch before he was brought out to the ranch to be part of this investigation I don't think he had any experience in fact he was a vocal skeptic and then at one point he briefs the UAPT he briefs the Pentagon on stuff he finds and there's this awkward moment where you kind of call him out Well, here's the thing. After that first year or so of investigative work at Skinwalker Ranch and Dr. Taylor becoming an experiencer himself, unbeknownst to us, he gets called into meetings in Washington, D.C. and is called in to be the chief scientist of the UAP task force. He was... Oh, you didn't even know about that. That's right. It comes up in the show. We had no idea. We had some interesting surprises over the last weeks with Dr. Taylor, the former chief scientist for the Pentagon's UAP task force. It would be great to hear you shed some light on how that has impacted our investigation and how that may influence things. And I've got to give Dr. Taylor credit as much as it's irritating that we weren't informed of this and that he was wearing that hat and fulfilling that role at the same time that he was coming back seasonally to work on our effort. The truth is Dr. Taylor had entered into certain national security oaths. He was under confidentiality. It was a highly sensitive role and position. And to his credit, he didn't breach that, not even once. We had no idea until he had authorization and it was going to come out at some point anyways. When he disclosed his role, you probably remember, I mean, there were people, Dragon was pissed. My head of security was angry because it felt like betrayal. So there were members of my team who felt initially like they'd been betrayed. Like, how could you be wearing these hats, working on this effort? That is the direct result of your research here at Skinwalker Ranch. The reason why he was called in and called to that position in large part was really because of the work at Skinwalker. I mean, that was the catalyst behind it all. But I actually have great respect for Dr. Taylor, and I understand the really difficult position that he was placed in. I respect the way he handled it. When it was time and appropriate, he put it on the table. He disclosed it. He's been very honest about it. I love Dr. Taylor. He's been a great member of the effort and the team of consulting physicists that is, he's one of the brightest thinkers on the planet when it comes to these topics these days. But I think he came into it just like I did as a skeptic. And he came out of it here the last years as an experiencer and as someone who, he is hell-bent on getting to the truth. You can see it. I mean, anyone who's watching this effort, this televised effort, can see this isn't an act. He's not hamming it up as an actor. He's being captured real time in some of his most frustrated moments, experiencing phenomena that defies any natural explanation. And he has been injured because of it. He's sustained injuries. He had to go to the doctor. He had to go to the hospital. Because of injuries, and he's had things happen that have followed him. Talk to him about the hitchhiker effect. I'd love to. Yeah. He's a good man. I'm very fortunate to have all of these people that support me, that support this effort. It is a team effort. and even going back to those science advisors, Dr. Puthoff, Dr. Green, Dr. Sagala, who joined us for a period of time. I mean, Dr. Sagala was there years before. Who is Dr. Sagala? Jim Sagala. He's in season one of the docuseries, but he was there before there was any History Channel effort. I was brought in as a confidant, as a member of Dr. Puthoff's team. and that's one thing that people forget is I was funding this investigation and keeping it completely secret and confidential for four years before being persuaded by the History Channel to allow the production team to come in and to make this public, to make it part of a true reality docuseries effort. and I have to say to have those resources, to have some of the finest documentary filmmakers in the world, they're stationed physically at the ranch for months of the year. It's a blessing and it's nice to not have to write all the checks. It's nice to have at least a big portion of the effort. Well, every bit of it goes back into it. I have yet to buy myself a hamburger with the proceeds of the effort. I imagine you're in the red. Well, I donate it. So what I do is I assign, I donate the proceeds. It would be due to me to either philanthropic efforts, supporting everything from scholarships. My wife is very passionate about financial aid for single mothers. We're very involved with Utah Valley University. We're involved with cancer research and supporting efforts associated with that community that Dr. Lee, my dear friend, is involved in. And we love supporting that effort. And I love pouring every penny back into the infrastructure and the experimentation, the effort there. I have yet to open a bank account for the ranch. Wow. That's amazing. So I haven't taken anyone who claims, and they're ignorant if they claim it, anyone who calls me a grifter. I didn't even know the term grift or grifter ignorantly before this effort. But all of a sudden when I went public and I see all this social media, all these people come out of the woodwork. Oh, you're a grifter. And all of this criticism that, oh, you're a PT Barnum and you're sensationalizing this and this is all just to become, you know, you just want the attention and this is all just trying to monetize these topics and take advantage of people. I'm like, what? Anyone who does their due diligence on me understands that it couldn't be further from the truth. No. And your opportunity cost is so high. I mean, what you could be making in that amount of time on real estate, it's just like, you know, how much more would you be making? It's a liability. It's crazy. It's a liability, but guess what? It's worth it. Yeah. And these frontier efforts, I wish more people were involved in it. That's the one thing that shocks me. Maybe you can help me, Jesse. Understand, where are all of the other high net worth accomplished business leaders that have resources and are curious about these topics? Where the hell is everyone? Because I feel like I'm still 10 years later on an island to a degree. And these things are real. And we have the opportunity to actually bring forth, I think, some of the greatest discoveries in the history of the world. And yet our effort is just this ragtag privately funded effort. One of my favorite essays is this guy, Abraham Flexner. He wrote an essay called The Usefulness of Useless Things. And it became the charter for the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton. and Flexner did some other stuff I wasn't so happy about with the medical system. But in this context, it was all super evergreen research that was long time horizon that was seen as sort of useless but would eventually become useful. And it was all about, you know, actually the root of the word school is the Greek skola, which means leisure. That's the double meaning. And so just sitting and contemplating the world and thinking about, you know, reality itself begets so much progress. If you think about quantum mechanics, which is responsible for a third of our economy, that was a bunch of dudes in Copenhagen philosophically inquiring into, you know, microscopic reality, but in a really philosophical kind of peripatetic, almost in the vein of Plato sort of sort of way. Yeah. And that is really missing. And so that's why I started with that preamble in my introduction of you, because I think what you do is so needed and it's such an externality. you have capitalists getting really rich and then all they want to do is get richer and you can increase the amount of goods with new modalities, new ways of thinking or you can make your money in extractive ways and I think what you're doing is just so positive sum and people really need to be thinking more about that I'm just shocked, I mean you're interviewing personalities people all the time but how many of those where are all the people that are funding like to great expense that are funding frontier science efforts to get to the bottom of this in the private sector at least why why is that do you know the answer after a decade other than I don't know whether they're just afraid because there's no return on investment and at the end of the day people care most about what their return on investment may be with something and this is not one of those efforts? Is it too much liability professionally? Have these topics understandably become so taboo in decades, in the last 70 years, that successful people in the private sector are not willing to touch them, to get involved, both with their reputations and their means, because it may compromise. I don't know. I don't know either. I should know, but I am baffled by it. You've met probably more of these guys than me, but my basic take when I meet a lot of them is like curiosity and open-mindedness doesn't necessarily scale with net worth. And so you have a lot of these guys and they made their money. And you'd think that highly successful, inquisitive people that are entrepreneurial would. You fulfilled a certain level of Maslow's hierarchy, and then it's like, okay, what's going on here? Yeah, what's next? You can only buy so many Ferraris. That's right. You have so many yachts or estates. Let's move the needle. Let's figure out the nature of our world. Let's figure out what is really happening. I think they're so used to, does this involve a clear local trade expression? You know, and, you know, they have these filters and heuristics for decision making that serve them so well in getting to a certain point. And then when it comes to you know getting past that point and really you know looking into this sort of stuff which I think is so fundamental to everything and so important I think it tough to deprogram yourself and to take a step back and to think in a more abstract way And I don know It tough And then there's the taboo. And then there's the fact that you're getting more risk averse as you become more successful. And you're an exception to this, which is amazing. We need more of that. We need more high net worth risk takers. But, you know, given all the real scientific suppression that occurs in areas like that, I mean, the fact that you even invested initially in anti-gravity or gravity manipulation in 2010, that's rare. Like, people are scared of things like that. It was bold, and we lost millions. I lost so much time. It was emotionally draining, debilitating. There was betrayal involved. there was disappointment on a level that I hadn't experienced before in business or life. I'm glad you bring that up because it underscores the fact that these topics are not for the faint of heart. No. They're fun to speculate on. They're fun to discuss. It's fun to go to the movies and see Disclosure Day. Great. I love the movie. I thought Steven Spielberg did a fantastic job with it. It's quite another to delve into it, to actually devote time and resource to these topics on another level, professionally, monetarily. And it's funny, with Spielberg, you look at him as a filmmaker, what an incredible talent and what a voice for asking the big questions. Did you see when he was asked recently in the interview, what inspired you, what motivated you to come forward and do Disclosure Day and produce this effort? And he says, yeah, well, it's the congressional hearings and the government acknowledgement of the reality. And I just finished binge-watching 72 episodes of The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch. Did you see that? That's incredible. No, I didn't see that. That's amazing. Oh, I'll send you the link. I'll show you the link. To have the great Steven Spielberg watching our work and being inspired by our work in a way that helps motivate broader discussion regarding these topics, that's a pinch me. That's one of those moments where I find great reward. Yeah. And it's not financial. It's validation, and it's also inspirational. It's incredible. I know that we're touching on topics and hopefully bringing forward discoveries and insight that people have been starving for for thousands of years. And I think we're just getting started, Jesse. Given how much money, time, resources, personal reputation you've spent on all of this stuff, does any part of you look at some of these initiatives for congressional oversight a la the Schumer Amendment, part of which involves possible eminent domain, you know, taking of private materials? and are you like, hey, look, I'm doing this transparently and for the public. I'm not Raytheon that collected this. When did we start trusting the government to take over our stuff? Are you guys stupid? Did you just start taking stupid pills? I'm all for protecting whistleblowers, and I am the biggest proponent. In fact, show me someone else who has put more of their professional career and their personal financial resources on the line relative to these topics. Bring it on. Show me someone. But giving the government carte blanche rights to literally come in and take my property and for the public to think that they know best that they're going to be able, that they're going to disclose to the public for the public's interests and write the reality of these things, that's crazy. And that's the problem is I fully support these bills. I fully support these efforts more than anyone. But I feel like we still have to protect and preserve private property rights, and we have to preserve the right for entrepreneurs to be able to conduct this effort without being thwarted, without being shut down. Will you commit publicly to some form of disclosure with whatever you find underneath the maze? Oh, yeah. I've demonstrated it for seven going on eight years. Yeah. It'd be kind of weird if, like, you went silent one day. Jesse, I demonstrate it 24-7. You can get on our insider site and you can pull up the live feed of the cameras. I don't know. There's nothing more I can do to demonstrate my commitment to transparency and that we're all in this together. What I'd like to see is more support. Now, I'm not asking for any financial support, but more support and, frankly, cooperative efforts to help bring forward the truth. I celebrate the whistleblowers. I celebrate those who have the courage to come forward. What I'm hoping they'll be able to do is come forward with data and evidence. The problem is people coming forward with their experiences or knowledge, especially second-hand knowledge, second-hand accounts, it's not helpful. Do you believe we have saucers and hangers in the U.S.? It wouldn't surprise me. I've seen them myself in the air. Right. Right. I know they exist. Is the government in possession of these things? Wouldn't surprise me. But on the other hand, whatever we're observing is so far advanced, I think to some degree it's arrogant to think that we would have the ability to bring it down. Right. But let's say I think it's a good question. I absolutely am open-minded to the fact that there are some factions, and I don't know, there may be privately held channels now that hold this material. Yeah. There are rumors that there's actually a Mormon connection with the UFO legacy program and that BYU could be a feeder. They say the CIA is Mormons, Marines, and MBAs. There's Dugway Proving Grounds, obviously, on the other side of Utah. Utah Test and Training Range. I mean, and that's why I was a skeptic at the very beginning is I felt like there's going to be a natural explanation for all of this. It's all conventional. We have the Utah Test and Training Range, which is west of Hill Air Force Base. It's the largest inland test and training range in the United States. You have the base. You have, you know, Doug Way. And we have great resource. I mean, we have within one hour, we have some really world-class institutions, UVU, who has a degreed cybersecurity program, BYU, the University of Utah, Utah State with Space Dynamics Lab that has worked on the Mars rover program and countless others. I thought there's enough evidence, there's enough going on here that there's nothing truly unusual to see. We know in the cafeteria at Dugway Proving Grounds, there's a little gray alien being. I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. But now nothing surprises me. Right. The phenomena is real without question, and we have data demonstrating the reality of it. Now, understanding the origin and the agenda is our goal. Speaking of it being real, there are still people who've served officially in Pentagon position studying this stuff, namely the former head of the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, Sean Kirkpatrick, who denies the reality of any of this stuff. He sort of professionally gaslights the public on it. He was probably the sole source for this sloppily written Wall Street Journal article that poorly explained away a bunch of UFO incidents around Malmstrom Nuclear Base in 1967, calling it the product of a non-nuclear EMP, which hadn't even been invented at the time. There were all sorts of errors in this piece. He also said that before being head of Arrow, he was not privy to any information or briefings on this subject, and you had a very interesting response for him. Yeah, he claimed that before 2022, he had no interest in these topics, that he'd never attended a briefing on Skinwalker Ranch, that he'd never met me. when, interestingly, he was right across from me, seated just like you are across from me for two and a half hours in a confidential briefing in 2018, in April 2018, specifically and exclusively focused on reviewing and briefing people in the government. relative to the reality of the ongoing investigation and findings at Skinwalker Ranch. I don't know how someone in his position sits across from me for two and a half hours watching a very sophisticated keynote presentation with video and other assets, and then years later denies ever meeting me, denies ever having any interest in these topics, ever attending a briefing. And I wasn't even going to give voice to this. I wasn't even going to respond to the criticism until I was being made out to be the liar by Stephen Greenstreet at the New York Post. He was essentially calling my account of doing this briefing, this confidential briefing, years before any History Channel docuseries. And it's unfortunate, but I came with the receipts. Yes, you posted a photo. Yeah. But, yeah, I posted on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook. Yeah. I did a drop and showed clearly that Dr. Kirkpatrick was right across from me, that he was in attendance of this briefing. And what it demonstrates is that there's unfortunately a disinformation campaign and a very active effort to discredit individuals like me and these very topics. Why? I don't know. I don't know where it's coming from. I don't have any bone to pick. I certainly, I warned Green Street with the New York Post. I warned him. I said, why are you doing this? Why are you, do you want to embarrass Dr. Kirkpatrick? Why are you continuing down this line of questioning? I don't know why, but I know it's real. I know that he was involved. Yeah, pure, pure, bold-faced lie. Yeah, I don't know who his puppet masters are. But I would not be surprised if they're somehow related to the covert military surveillance of our effort at Skinwalker Ranch and beyond. Yeah. It really does underscore the effort to discredit these topics. And, I mean, that was Blue Book 2.0 or Condon Report 2.0 essentially to discredit, to basically tell the entire public in Congress, oh, there's nothing to see here. Move along. To somehow Jedi mind trick everyone into thinking that we're crazy, that there's no validity of these topics. And that's insanity. And it's dishonest. It's dishonest. It's just, in this day and age, I'm shocked. Was he open-minded back then? Yeah, absolutely. It was a great exchange. Yeah, like I said, I have no bone to pick. There was nothing adversarial and nothing negative. In fact, I appreciate it. So it's like he's playing a role now. Yeah. It's like he's sort of serving orders. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't presume to understand the motivation behind it. All I can do is give voice and evidence to the reality of what happened. Very strange. Well, also very strange. We mentioned the Shermans who owned the ranch before Bigelow. Sure. This werewolf showing up. You called it a direwolf, which I found fascinating. You guys then find a direwolf, what is it, like a jawbone? It's a whole carcass. A whole carcass. It's a decomposing carcass. Yeah, Jesse. And direwolves don't are, on Time Magazine, you have colossal bioscientists bringing back a direwolf. Direwolves are from 125,000 B.C. And so you found a direwolf carcass on the ranch? So interestingly. Did it time travel there? Well, there are portions of Skinwalker Ranch that had never been subjected to any scientific investigation or close study. One of those regions was what we call Dry Gulch Creek. There is this waterway that cuts through the property that warranted some investigation. There had been accounts, in fact, going back to the Shermans, accounts of orbs of light traveling that direction. and even these giant wolves, wolf-like creatures that proceeded to head out toward that part of the ranch and disappeared. Well, we didn't know that we'd find anything other than at least be able to map that region of the property. and upon investigating Dry Gulch Creek, right there on camera, the team happens upon this carcass of this decomposing large wolf-like creature, and thank goodness, I mean, it stunk. It was, what doesn't translate through the television is how disgusting it was. There were maggots everywhere, flies, it reeked. The guys, I mean, they weren't really excited to cut its jaw off to actually bag pieces of that animal. But they did, thank goodness. They had the presence of mind to take samples while it was falling apart, decomposing there right in the Dry Gulch Creek, and proceeded to study it. In fact, we sent it immediately off to biologist Ben Woodruff, who has been our expert biologist. And Mr. Woodruff shockingly finds that the direct match to that jawbone, the direct match is a direwolf species that's long extinct. That's wild. And he puts it to the test. I mean, we show on the series. Are there wolves in the region? No. No wolves. No, they're anomalies. You pull up all of the public data, and it's not only uncommon, it just isn't no one's seen anything like this. Did they sequence the DNA? Yes. So we sent the DNA off to Colossal, and it comes back. The majority of it they can't identify. It's a mystery. Parts of the DNA, no surprise, are associated with the gray wolf species, but the majority of it is inconclusive. So you take the physical evidence, you take the DNA, and then you look back on the accounts. Was this before or after Colossal resuscitated the dire wolf? They haven't yet. Oh, well, no, excuse me. They have. They had the two pups. Yeah. This is before. Interesting. So do you think that this is somehow connected with their resuscitation? Absolutely. Zero. No, there's absolutely no correlation or connection. Okay. They just happen to be the leading genetics testing lab. For ancient DNA. And they're trusted. I'm an angel investor. Oh, that's done really well. So I'm one of the early angels with that group you're familiar with that invested. and the CEO is a dear friend. Ben Lamb is one of the great visionaries out there. But you look at how much this evidence helps support the accounts that were easily dismissed by so many people. People in the past that questioned the Shermans and the account of this large wolf-like creature, And they're like, well, number one, there are no wolves in Utah, no large wolf-like species. There are no packs. Number two, it just defies any explanation. I mean, it just seems so fantastical. Yet we find actual physical evidence through our investigation, and it's deepened the mystery that much more. Anyone who's watched those episodes has got to be just as baffled as we are. I don't know how you explain that. That's so wild. You don't. And the biology on that ranch, I mean, maybe there are portals to other places and times that allow transit. Because we don't know where they go, where they've come from. Well, the Sherman story is something you would see Stephen Greenstreet be like, of course. He shot a shotgun at close range at the wolf that was oversized, and no one ever saw it again or whatever. Well, he thought they were all full of crap. And then decades later, you find a dire wolf carcass right there. And the jaw is a direct match. The teeth are a direct match to an extinct species that has no place. There's no population out there. There's nothing. And then you have a sophisticated DNA test conducted that shows that it's inconclusive. It's a mystery. I mean, the majority of the material you can't assign to anything. So go figure. You've brought. I thought there would be 100 million people tune in. Yeah. Instead of a couple million. It's not bad. But, yeah, it should be Super Bowl. I am shocked. I don't know why people aren't more captivated by what we are presenting transparently to the public. It's really wild. It is really. When you think about all of the things, they're so wild. This isn't staged. These aren't reenactments like on Ancient Aliens or some other clip show where they're just simply asking why and this happened. Experts say that this happened or it has been reported. No, we're showing the public what is playing out live without manipulation. It's so loud. And it's almost like the intelligence that you're studying, it's like this game of cat and mouse, and it's toying with you. And you have, you know, Eric Bard, I guess the censors in the main, you know, kind of, what do we call it? The command center. You know, we're malfunctioning. The lights were turning on and off. And then at one point he gets super frustrated and he goes, if you're out there, just show yourself to me. And then you see the screens kind of freeze up and then it goes, I living. So strange. He was registering what ended up being thousands of intrusion events captured on the video surveillance of the command center. In the command center. and at the height of frustration, Eric Bard vocally says, if you have something to tell me, tell me. If you have something to show me, show me. And in that moment, the screen morphs and thank goodness Bard has the presence of mind to screen capture, to literally save what happened on that screen. And then it goes back and is restored. And upon examination, you see that that screen, something had manipulated that image to pull letters together, completely out of sequence, no explanation, pull them together in a millisecond to form the words I living. And then I said, all right, if you got something you want to show me, show me. If you got something you want to tell me, tell me. Then this is the immediate first screenshot. Oh, God. If that isn't evidence that we're dealing with communication, that we're dealing with intelligence and volition, I don't know what else yeah what are the statistical odds that happens by chance it's one in a trillion and the technology to enable that to happen to trigger that simultaneously it's not around these data points just keep adding up I have a data point there my editor when he was making our original Skinwalker Ranch vlog when we came four years ago, his screen froze up. And it never did that, and it got all staticky and weird. And we put that in our original video. It's so crazy. So he's not, you know, especially at the time, now he's more into these topics because it works with me. But at the time, you know, he wasn't super into any of this stuff. It seems like there are a number of, quote, unquote, sacred objects out in the world that intelligently communicate with anyone around them. I don't know if you're familiar with the Baltic Sea anomaly. Do you know about this? Yeah. This is in the Baltic Sea between Sweden and Finland. It's smack dab in the middle. I actually went with Dennis Asperg, who is part of OceanX. He's a treasure hunter. And the weirdest things happen when you're around this object. You have all sorts of GPS failures, electromagnetic anomalies, you know, the whole electricity on the entire boat just goes out. The, you know, remote controlled underwater drone, you know, immediately goes out. It's really wild. It sounds familiar. It's the same thing. Yeah. And so and then this is really weird. And I didn't even put this in my Baltic Sea Anomaly documentary because I thought it would discredit me. It's so weird. But I'll just say it here because it's in the context. Sure. it's it there's a pattern here i have a friend who built an app called sync text s-y-n-c-t-x-t it's basically a random event generator so ones and zeros tied to something you know provably random in quantum mechanics or thought of as random like you know radioactive isotope decay or double slit experiment whatever and but but in this case instead of being tied to one or zero it's tied to, I think, probably tokens or sentences. So it's a random, like, sentence generator. Right. So you can get all sorts of messages. And often they happen to be kind of synchronistic beyond chance, but that's kind of the whole thing, right? So, we are out here monitoring this object and, you know, again, like Skinwalker, it's like, you know, strange things are happening, the power went out on the boat, but, you know, nothing, like, insane, right? Because, like, this is just one time we're out there. But a ton of strange things have happened around the object. Lightning has struck the object. Smoke has been seen coming out. NATO ships are circling it. Super strange. So this is over years, just like you guys have years of data. And the drone goes out all of a sudden, the power on it, as we're kind of surveying the thing. Like, the thing doesn't want to be surveyed. And nobody has reception. Not only does nobody have reception, I think the transponder was off on the chip. So there were no local comms being made. We were out at sea and I get a text on my phone and you can ask anybody there with me about this happening and they'll all corroborate this story. And it's a text on SyncText and it says, how long will you be down here for? Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. That's awesome. It's awesome. And that's similar. Similar. Again, you're talking about the same patterns. Yes. The same type of phenomena. Yes. Around a place, an object. Yes. It's the same thing. And so it just felt too relevant to not say. I love it. Thank you for sharing. Of course. And no, and look, I'm pretty sure it's time stamped, you know, as far as the text. Yeah. So you've got all the metadata. I've got all the metadata. That's the thing. And then I was there then, you know, and I have all these witnesses. So, like, you know. See, that's so important. Everything we have, even the earliest UFO images that were captured above Skinwalker Ranch under my stewardship, I have the metadata. I have all of the metadata and the other evidence regarding the air traffic during the day, witness, testimony, all of what you would want to have access to from a data-driven approach. Yeah, it's incredible. I love that. It's such an important data set that hopefully open source scientists, civilian scientists can continue to come to the ranch and continue to sort of investigate this stuff. Some of the most interesting investigations I've seen you do involve bringing humans to the ranch who are doing kind of ancient tradition practices. You brought in a rabbi who did like a Kabbalistic prayer. Rabbi Ariel Zadok's experiment where he claimed that he had a rabbinical chant that would open portals to other realms. And we thought, why not? We invite experts from various spiritual traditions. You brought Native American shamans. Exactly. And I thought, absolutely. I welcome Rabbi Zadok. This will be an interesting exercise. Do I expect anything to come of it? No. But I think it will be interesting and it will be great to have his perspective. Well, we have this FLIR camera, this $35,000 FLIR camera system set up to monitor the environment during the course of his chant, his experiment. And, of course, what plays out is all in the public domain. It's all been made public. The temperature drops dramatically around Homestead 2 and right in the doorway, right in the entry of Homestead 2, it goes to freezing black, freezing cold temperatures. So Ariel starts his ceremony and while he's doing the chant, I happen to notice that there's some kind of anomaly in front of the doorway of Homestead 2. Eric, come here a minute. Look at the difference in the FLIR imagery now. It's completely changed. I've not seen this do this before. They stop the exercise. The men walk over to see if there is this an equipment malfunction or is it really is is can we really feel physically feel a change in the environment that would that would match up. And, of course, they all witness what they described as walking into a deep freeze. The environment in seconds, in the middle of July in Utah, changed in the midst of that ceremony. and we even caught an object moving about, probably conducting some type of surveillance activity that came, that appeared. What was, I think, just as interesting is after the rabbi left, we decided to repeat the experiment. We had the audio, so we played the audio back, and we had the reverse happen. Temperature elevated and in that exercise an orb of light appeared in the homestead and the men ended up seeing some object through their night vision goggles that they ended up tracing and following through the field behind homestead too. That whole exercise was incredible confirmation that what we are dealing with is not only real, but there is a spiritual element to this. Why did Rabbi Zadok's chant his prayer, open this portal, or change the environment? What would cause that? it's a fascinating part of what happens on the ranch and only at Skinwalker Ranch. And we've brought back Native American shaman with other strange things that have occurred. In fact, on the current season, we've done that with some interesting results. We even just conducted a brain experiment back at Homestead 2 involving a scientist that is an expert in EEG and really monitoring brain function. And, whoa, the results were shocking. I think he walked into the homestead and the EEG shut down. And then he walked out and it was back online and it was super strange. And Chris Bledsoe as well, super experiencer who, you know, has had all sorts of fascinating experiences with the lady, but also UFOs showing up at his house in Fayetteville, North Carolina. He went to Skinwalker Ranch as well? He did. We didn't end up airing that content. It was really kind of inconclusive. A nice guy. Yeah. Really enjoyed my interaction with Chris and his team, but we're pretty particular about what we reveal, what we present. And I think it's important to note that 95% of what we film and document doesn't end up making it on the series. And I'm sure sometimes you think you detect a thing, and then you are able to prosaically explain it. Well, and we show that, and sometimes it's difficult to know whether it's appropriate to air certain experiments or certain things, not because we want to hide anything or that we want to omit anything. In fact, I'm completely the opposite. I want to reveal everything, but we only have certain times, And that's one of the challenges associated with the framework of a documentary series is you have to carefully edit thousands of hours of video and audio content. You can probably empathize. Oh, yeah. It's a freaking nightmare for my partners, my team. It's a miracle that we have what we do have because it's just amassing all that material and then being able to organize it such that we can present it months later. It's a huge effort. Do you feel like there are people that are just like Skinwalker Ranch is a kind of hotspot of this stuff geographically? Do you feel like there are people that the phenomenon team seems to kind of show up more around? Absolutely. Yeah. Generationally. Hmm. Yeah. I would agree with that. Absolutely. Is that does that run at all in your family or? No. OK. Absolutely not. OK. No. We have no evidence of anything like that. Do you have any theories, you know, having done this for, what is this now, 10 years that you've owned it? That's amazing. So do you have any theories as to what, because obviously you have all this data. You have an incredible amount of data. And then are there any theories as to what's happening and what this means about reality itself? Well, we know there's something above the ranch. We've caught it from multiple camera points. We've documented it. We've documented, in effect, that there is something within the space above the ranch that defies rockets, that manipulates drones, that is very real. And we've documented that there are anomalies below the ranch, as above, so below. There's something there, whether it is an interstellar highway, stargate, gateway to other dimensions, other worlds. The combined evidence and the anomalies speak to the reality of that. It's no longer just a question or just theory. I think we're now dealing with hard data. I think the darker elements, the malevolence, the consciousness-related aspects of this warrant some very serious and humble investigation, and that's going to be a key part of my effort moving forward. Where are these UFOs coming from? why do unidentified aerial phenomena seem to appear when we are when we are testing the environment when we're poking the hornet's nest as Dr. Taylor would say are they defending something are they hiding something or are they being revealed as observers we'll see it's real and it's It's really sobering to look back on just the documentary record of what we've experienced. It seems like there are patterns as far as other geographical hotspots, sacred Native American lands and nuclear sites. and I know Skinwalker isn't a nuclear site per se, but it's in proximity to some past testing? No. Okay. That was a stretch by people to say that some of the testing in Nevada could have, the winds could have blown material up here. Got it. That somehow that's created some of the elevated microwave and radio. Okay, so that's a stretch. Well, not only a stretch. is just making it up. It's just as silly as swamp gas. Well, I would say there's a third thing, which is mineral-rich areas seem to attract this. There is, and I think that may be a key part of what is, why. The Uinta Basin is a mysterious place. It's not just us. You look back on Junior Hicks, who is the historian. He was with us for that first season or two. He passed away, sadly, when we were entering our second season of filming the docuseries. But he'd been with us. Within weeks of me acquiring the property, he became a fast friend, a confidant, worked closely with Thomas Winterton and Jim Morse, who we refer to him as Uncle Jim. And Junior Hicks had detailed files going back to 1950 documenting hundreds of UFO sightings and bizarre incidents in that area. And it's found in the book, the Utah UFO display. He came on as a consultant, gave testimony to the reality of what had been going on there long before Bigelow or Sherman. That's what people don't understand. Our investigation has unearthed the fact that there are accounts that go back to the 1930s with the early homesteaders of bizarre cattle mutilation and other strange activity on this property. We're talking almost 100 years of documented incidents, history, accounts, even accounts of people coming on the ranch during the 60s, the 70s, and the 80s and having encounters. And these are credible people. Law enforcement even. Wow. Do you think it's a coincidence that the Buffalo Soldiers were Freemasons? Obviously, you have that inscription, you know, as above, so below. Do you think that that is somehow part and parcel of what's going on? I think it's all part of the overall very intriguing history, and it's a key element potentially in why this property. And our archaeologist, Chris Roberts, is now documented going back over 8,000 years. of artifacts, of evidence, of habitation on this property, not as a main dwelling site, but as a ceremonial site, as a site of interest, of gathering, a gathering place. That is rare, very, very rare, to find artifacts that date back that far, that show that for whatever reason the ancients were drawn to this site, I think we could learn a lot by studying that. Do you want to be able to not only see but scientifically study a UFO? Absolutely. Maybe we will. Maybe we will. Do you think that Bigelow has done that? No. Okay. Are you ever afraid for your life, given that you're... Yes. And how do you sort of, do you just put the blinders on and ignore it? Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's right. I'm going to try to not be motivated or governed by fear. I just have to keep focus. does studying all this stuff reaffirm your belief in God or does it make you kind of more existentially anxious and unsure of God or how does it kind of change your relationship with God and your faith I believe what we are seeing is confirmation that we live in a divinely constructed intelligently designed reality I think there is a higher power I think we have data to show that that is the case. I find the fact that we're not alone in the universe, that reality is much more complex than people would lead us to believe in certain positions, is evidence that there is more than meets the eye. I found that my faith has been strengthened. I bought the ranch as not only a scientific skeptic, someone very skeptical of any paranormal or extraordinary claims, but I also was questioning faith at that time. I had deep, deep concerns about organized religion, even my own faith tradition. and I've honestly come full circle. My faith is stronger today than ever and is my investigation driven by trying to prove the existence of God or my faith tradition? Absolutely not. Never has been, never will. But it is an interesting coincidence that at the same time I'm having these profound experiences that actually shift me from being a skeptic to an experiencer, I'm also coming face-to-face with my own faith traditions and actually looking at them through a different lens. Looking at, I would tell you, to be really transparent, I love my faith, my Latter-day Saint faith more now and appreciate it more now than ever before. I find that Mormonism and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only religion that really full-on speaks about and teaches that we are not alone in the universe. And it has a more of a cosmic worldview. I think that's a fun coincidence to a degree relative to this investigation. And it's validating. Is it a driving force? Absolutely not. It just happens to be. Yeah. And I feel more humbled right now because I feel like I know less than I've ever known in my life. I feel like the further we go into our research, the further I go in life, the less I know. Yeah, the more you know, the less you know. But at the same time, I find more inspiration and I find more peace and validation in those things that I was taught from a very young age. And we're all in this together. That's one thing that is also an inspiring part of this whole effort, to bring a group of people from different faith traditions. Some of them are completely agnostic. I have some friends that are vocal atheists, and they're great people and people that I deeply love and respect, and they bring perspective that has been helpful, and we all find common ground together through this investigation. And that's the thing. These questions that have been asked at the beginning of time that we are trying to answer, and I believe answering, on Skinwalker Ranch are unifying. I think they show that, you know, the human family should be working together. Absolutely. Well, that was a beautiful bookend sort of, you know, speech to what was an amazing interview. I appreciate you coming on so much, Brandon. And, yeah, I think, you know, in many ways bringing it back with, you know, I think, you know, Mormonism would probably be the least ontologically shocked religion if we get disclosure. It is. And I do think it would be a poetic culmination of all your disparate, you know, interests if we were to find something very concrete under that mesa, which I believe there is something very, very concrete. I mean, clearly there is because of what's coming out. There's something unusual, and it defies any conventional explanation. So let's bring it on. And also, whatever we are documenting above the Mesa in the skies, why? Why are we seeing UFOs and other activity? I want to have those answers, and I want to document where they're coming from and why. I love it. Well, I hope you get the answers, and it's such a fascinating thing to watch in public. This is an unprecedented time where if there is an object under that mesa, it's like this is the Super Bowl. And it's like, and, you know, watching all of the characters, all of your amazing investigators grapple with some of the, you know, psychological stuff, but the scientific stuff as well, and having to introspect about their orientation towards the whole subject and the phenomenon as they continue to move forward is really a kind of a microcosm of, you know, any sort of meaning seeker's life. As you move towards sort of a big T truth, you're having to constantly question yourself and your intentions, and it's amazing to watch live on The Secrets of Skinwalker. I'll see it all play out. I mean, there are two statements from one of my favorite shows of all time that are relevant coming from the X-Files. Trust no one. The truth is out there. and both can be applied in this realm of inquiry and this investigation. Exactly. And, hey, it's not a coincidence that Chris Carter had a security clearance. Indeed. There you go. Well, Brandon, thank you so much for this. I appreciate it. It was an honor, and this is going to be a hell of an episode. Good to be with you. Onward. Onward. Cool. Thank you.