Campbell’s in Hot Water: Simmering the Brand Back Down

Welcome to We Fixed It. You're welcome. The show where we take over companies, you come along for the ride, and we try to put them back better than we found them. So recently, a senior executive at Campbell's found himself in hot water by saying some really unsavory things. He trashed his company's products, made fun of their customers, tossed out racist remarks, bragged about coming to work while he's high. It was all the things. And unlucky for him, he was being recorded, legally, saying what he said, and the recording made it out into the public. Not surprisingly, he was fired, but this story is just getting started. Campbell's stock just hit a 52-week low. The company's been on the defensive about their product ingredients, but pretty quiet about the trash-talking of their customers. Huh. Now, we don't know all the remaining senior executives at Campbell's personally. Let's assume everyone still employed there has the best of intentions, but this situation could keep getting worse. It could be a blip. It could be a short-term PR nightmare that goes away. Or it could be a permanent dent in the brand's image. As we've seen many times, companies are notorious for mishandling these types of incidents. Fortunately, we fix things. That's what we do. Let's see if we can help camels out and give them some damage control strategies. If we do this right, we might even be able to help them get out of defensive mode and into an even better position than before this happened. And to do that, we're going to add one more cook to this kitchen. We're thrilled to have Javier Farfan with us. Javier is a veteran brand strategist, a consultant who's definitely helped companies we all know navigate crises, and a professor at Syracuse. Over the course of his career, he's been with the NFL, Verizon, PepsiCo, Microsoft. Javier, is there anything you haven't done? Welcome to our show. Please tell us a little bit about yourself. Thank you. I'm excited to be part of this journey with you guys. You know, it's been a long journey over 20 years in some type of marketing role within Fortune 500 companies. Currently, I have my own advisory practice with folks like NFL still. This is my sixth season with them, but also doing some work with Walmart and some other smaller brands. So just excited to be here and just kind of try to figure it out with you guys. Thanks, Javier. It's really wonderful to have you here. And thanks for coming and playing along. Melissa, what's cooking over at Campbell's? Tell us more about why they're in the situation they are in. Aaron, this story at Campbell's is really a powder keg of corporate scandal because it hits on so many different levels. First, the betrayal of a beloved American icon. Second, the shocking power of a secret recording. And third, this really perplexing question of why leaders still think they can act in this way without consequence. Campbell's isn't just a soup company. Since 1869, it's woven itself into the literal fabric of American culture. Its real innovation was condensed soup, taking the water out of it to make it affordable and a pantry stable for every family. This wasn't just a product. It was a promise of accessibility. and then it cemented itself in our collective memory. The mmm-mmm good jingle, Andy Warhol put the soup can on a gallery wall as a symbol of American life. So for generations, it's been the reliable lunch, the easy dinner, the comfort food of chicken noodle soup for when you're sick. Its brand is built on trust, nostalgia, and wholesomeness. So when an executive like Martin Valley is heard on tape calling this very product for FN4 people, It's not just trashing a can of soup. He's spitting on the company's 150-year legacy and, more importantly, on the relationship with the people who built it. So how do we get there? Yes, this has become public because of a lawsuit filed by a former employee, Robert Garza. But the lawsuit alone could have led to a quiet settlement, which happens more frequently in the large corporate world than most people know about. What did them in was that secret audio recording. Without that tape, it's messy. And it's a he said, he said case, right? About wrongful termination, hostile work environment, et cetera, et cetera. With it, now we're all witnesses. We hear the vulgarity, the racism, the contempt firsthand, and you really can't fight that. And so it really transformed this legal issue into a real public scandal. And there was this backfiring, right? Garza reported this behavior internally and then was fired 20 days later. So retaliation comes to play. I know, Kadir, you probably have a lot of thoughts on all of this. And so it shifts the narrative from one bad apple to actually potential systematic failure in Campbell's culture, which we've seen in lots of different companies. So why do executives still think this is OK? I think it's because they're in sometimes in an ivory tower. Senior leaders can become very insulated, surrounded by people who agree with them. We've talked about that a lot on this podcast. A culture of fear reinforces that. So if no one feels safe to speak up because you're retaliated against, then you're not going to speak up. And there's a dangerous lag, I think, in understanding of digital reality world we live in today, right? So many still operate in this behind closed doors mantra, which is not the case anymore. Everything can be recorded on your phone. Every Slack can be posted online. Every message can have a screenshot. The risk is very big. And I think that this is something that corporations and companies, small and large alike, need to really respect and think about. So we're left with this beloved brand in crisis mode, crisis of technology as well, right? Undeniably. And deep-rooted leadership failure. So it's a perfect storm for a modern corporate scandal. What's Campbell's got to do now that they fired this VP? I'd love to hear, Javier, your perspective on, you know, you've worked with some of the big brands out there and continue to do so. What do you think? Where should we start here? Where should we start? It's a tough one. But, you know, I think the biggest thing is from a Campbell's perspective, isolate the incident. Right. And I think they started doing a bit of that. But how do you isolate the incident so that it's not reflective of the company itself? Right. And it's really connected to who made that statement. Second piece of that puzzle I'm thinking is start, continue to kind of move the company on where it needs to go, right? Let's not fall back on what the objectives of the business are. What are kind of the communication and marketing strategies that were deployed? Of course, they're trying to rectify the situation, but let's not lose track of what we need to do as a company from a Campbell's perspective. This reminds me, unfortunately, of a situation I had when I was at PepsiCo. I worked on an ad that was considered like the most racist ad ever. And it actually had an impact on the business when it went out because the public discourse of what the commercial was. And this is pre-social media. Social media just started at that time. Kind of did wildfire and the press took it on and it impacted our stock price. So a lot of people were upset about that. And what I learned from that experience and being in that crisis mode was how did we get here? Like stop the conversation from happening or just try to manage that conversation inside the building. How did we get here? And then create parameters and guidelines so that won't happen again. But also let's focus on what are the values that that marketing organization needs to have to continue to move the business forward. What we created there was, you know, we worked with a rapper, a singer that actually was extremely controversial at the time. But we took that approach because we knew where Mountain Dew, the brand that we were making a commercial, was aligned to. And we only did this on his platform on a specific channel. But social media grabbed it and took it, you know, further than where it needed to go. So we couldn't control the narrative. Yeah, so it just reminds me of that time and just being in crisis management mode. And those were kind of the pieces that we kind of focused on. I'll stop there. No, it's interesting what you're saying, Javier. And I think it's interesting that there's the same type of ripple effect happening here. The distinction there is that it was company sanctioned and it was the official image of the company and it was misconstrued or misrepresented when it got out to the public and it had the opposite intended effect. This is something that was never intended for public consumption. And it got out anyway. And now the company has to deal with it and say, wait, this doesn't reflect us and whatever they're saying. I was going to say, I think, Javier, I really appreciate and respect the example you gave about your previous experience and like the correction. And, you know, Aaron, I think that the point that you're making here about like the executive behavior, right, and the bad behavior conversation, it just makes me think about, you know, now we're talking about systems and we're talking about norms and we're talking about stakeholders as they should be, whether it's employees or customers or investors. investors asking like, who are you and no one's watching? I think someone here just used the term values. And it's like, you know, most companies have values written on the wall or on their website. Sorry, I might be dating myself walking through company hallways with the values written on the wall. But like, regardless of that, the values typically are positive, right? We value respect, collaboration, inclusion, so forth. But I think in this situation, you know, when we're talking about specifically an executive behaving badly, what we now are faced with is the highest folks in your organization, their actions don't align with the values of who you say you are as a company. And I think in this case, whether it's Campbell's or we're talking about another company, like the response can't be, I don't know, for the lack of a better word, like cosmetic, right? Like we kind of expect the apology. We expect a firing somewhere, you know, by the head Apple. But I think we have to go deeper than that because, again, we are talking about systems that are put into place. And Melissa you did a great job touching on like companies again say retaliation isn okay But we all know it happens You can go on LinkedIn any day of the week and read about folks talking about how anything from their careers were impacted to just kind of those subtle behavior changes after they did attempt to report something So I think, you know, when we talk about the fix here, and I'm obviously not jumping ahead, we're now talking about something that has to go down to culture. We're now talking about something that has to permeate to leadership expectations, to accountability mechanisms that have to be put into place, doable, but big, big undertaking. And as Javier pointed out earlier, does impact overall outcomes and results, as well as the internal operations. So I think culture here, even though we have expectations of public firing, you know, they're going to do all of these, they've already done that. That's fine. But what it's created is this really weird environment internally. So from an operational perspective, for example, you could even call this incident as kind of a tipping point for kind of like I would call it the silent killer of quality. And what I mean by that is employees and middle managers and leaders hold the company accountable for people in those situations and they stop caring and then they just do the bare minimum. Right. So do they care about the quality? You know, so then all of a sudden you're kind of creating an environment where you're actually going down that path that actually wasn't really what maybe, I don't know what his intent was when he said that, but it quietly fills kind of that internal accountability and pride in your work. And also, I think more importantly, Kadir, we've seen this so much in cultures and when we talk about, you know, diversity and inclusion and things like that is, you know what that's going to happen here is this trickle down meanness in operation. This attitude doesn't just stay in the boardroom or at the C-suite level, right? A manager who hears an executive mocking other employees or employee groups and calling them idiots suddenly empowers people to just say whatever they want to say with less patience or less support to the diversity of their team, erode psychological safety. it's a problem internally. And so, you know, I'm a customer experience person, but even handling customer complaints, and I will say I've been guilty of times when a customer has made a complaint or escalated a complaint to me about something and thinking, oh my gosh, you know, this person, but like, I'm not going to go to my team and say that about the customer, right? We're going to have to resolve this issue. And so when they hear that, all of a sudden, respectful communication, all of these things that are really important to building a team of Campbell's is massive in size. So, you know, I think that there are definitely consequences that are beyond just maybe selling as much soup or now this VP of IT that's looking for a new job. You know, I think it goes way beyond that. Well, yeah, it's definitely a problem internally. But now that it got public, it's a problem externally. Javier, is this like a trial by jury type of situation where the public can decide, is it a big deal? And maybe the public says, okay, it's taken care of, let's go on with our lives. And maybe the stock market rallies and the stock comes back, you know, it was just a dip and comes back. Like, is this a reckoning or is this a business as usual type of situation? Unfortunately, I think it's business as usual. I think there's more of an internal impact than an external one because of just the massive amounts of information young people get, you know, and everybody gets that, you know, this is just another blimp of a corporation not behaving the way they need to be. It's just an example of the challenges that I think a lot of people tie to these big, massive organizations. So but internally, there is to Melissa, your point, there is an impact. Right. And it depends on the leadership and on how they behave and how they deal with it. That's going to cause a lasting effect on that. Right. So if the leadership there does not keep people accountable or does not try to counteract that behavior in some capacity, then they think that's acceptable. And then, you know, I think it does affect the product and the behavior and the people's feelings about working there. So I do agree with that. I'm going to go back to my example. I had some amazing leaders at PepsiCo and one of the big challenges were like, do we make the folks that came up with this creative idea accountable for this and accountable for the stock price going down? And there was a third party coming in to assess that. So we had lawyers to come in and talk to everybody to assess that challenge. And in all of that, you know, due diligence, they realized it wasn't done out of malice. It was done out of creativity. And then now the decision is, do you punish that creativity? How will that impact the marketing organization in the future and the young people that have to come back with creative ideas? Right. Because some of them will not work and some of them will. And they decided, hey, look, you know, it wasn't done in Malice. We learned from it. We were able to contain it. And RCMO was like, we support the decisions that were made at that time because we know that it was for the business and it wasn't malice. So, you know, that took a lot of courage to do because the quick thing is like, you messed up, you're fired and let's move on. But that would have had to your point, Melissa, the ripple effect of all these young people being like, I don't know if I should do something with an artist or go down that path. So I thought like it's one of my biggest learning moments of my career, and I use it as a learning moment for young people when I'm in the classroom. I love that example. I think that's a great example of how companies can create that psychological safety, whether it is something like what we're talking about here in terms of like, hey, if something's happening, you actually should be safe to report it. But I also love, and we've talked about this many times on the podcast before, that psychological safety to try to fail, to have those ideas that, okay, that didn't go the way that we wanted it to. And guess what? We're going to allow you to fail up and keep moving forward, and it's not going to impact your career with us. I love that example. But Javier, I would completely agree with you. I think the impact here internally with arguably, I know we get customers as the single greatest stakeholder, but I think we cannot ignore employees as a key stakeholder and the impact that something like in this particular instance is going to have. So I just wanted to double down and shout out the examples that you just gave here. You know, the funny thing about this is that this is a perfect example that the customer is not the only stakeholder, right? Yep. could. That person is the one that caught in. And that's the world we live in now. You know what I mean? If we don't, as an organization or as business people, we need to understand that we're always on. You know what I mean? And we live and breathe what we do. We can't just leave it at the door because everybody's connected and can amplify whatever things that happen. So personally, professionally, I think that is the mantra that I think us as a new business leader needs to think through on a consistent basis, right? I think the challenge for an organization like Campbell is, you know, how do you make sure that you bring in the people with the right values all the way through? And that's the bigger challenge, right? And sometimes these businesses, I'm not saying this is the example of Campbell, but they could be just going for the bottom line and don't think about the values of the business, right? I'm not sure who hones Campbell's right now, but those things change, especially when these massive companies get sold to other companies and they just kind of move in these big mergers acquisitions, you know, the soul of what the Campbell's thing gets diluted in that constant change of increasing that margin, the bottom line. Yeah. And I think when you talk about that Campbell's needs to look internally, I think, you know, most companies have a lot of different employee trainings and, you know, things that you have to do annually, you know, you have to do security, IT security, all these different kinds of things. I remember, you know, in my roles as running very small teams of less than 20 to larger teams over a thousand and offshore, we had to go through a lot of training and people were told about communication, right? Like they were told, do not write anything down anywhere that you wouldn't be okay published on a big screen in court somewhere, right? Like, so you might be thinking that you're slacking your buddy, you know, and yeah, usually you're talking about like, hey, is it time for you to take a lunch break? Can we meet up? You know, whatever. But if you start talking crap about people or customers or other people on the team, it can come out, right? And I think that this is one of those things where, unlike your situation at Pepsi, which was truly a risk that needed to be taken in terms of creativity. This was a leader behaving poorly, right? And saying some things that just, you know, they need to own up and they did, well, they're fired now. But again, how do you, you know, how do you recover from that? And especially thinking about the internal after, you know, ripple effects, I think is really one of the bigger things for Campbell's is how do they, you know, their secret ingredient is then trust, right? With built on a promise of wholesomeness and reliable nourishment. And, you know, that, that like chicken noodle soup. And I, I still think about that. Like when I was a child, like if you were stayed home from school, that's what you knew you were going to get chicken soup from Campbell's, right? And, and saltine crackers, you know, that was what you were going to have for lunch. So that is like a promise, right? And so like now, what are they going to do to create rebuild that trust, build that emotional connection with that comfort, nostalgia. And I do think that in today's world, you know, Javier, you brought this up as well, but customers especially in this day and age this generation really votes with their wallets on values And so there might be a silent quiet boycott on the shelves Erin, you asked about this, what the outcome might be. It might not be as big of a flash in social media like the American Eagle situation was. But in the grocery store aisle, when you're going down and you're getting some soup, someone might pause and be like, oh, wait, I'm going to get Progresso or, you know, I'm going to get a different brand. because I just, that was not right. What happened there? You think it's just a category trending downward? Or do you think that consumers are going to keep this as like a indelible brand impression where they're standing at the shelf and Campbell's is on sale and they have a manufacturer rebate or some type of win them back promotion? Are consumers really that moral to their values where they're going to say, no, I'm going to buy not Campbell's? That's how far I question. I think it all depends on the consumer and who you're talking to, right? But what I can say is consumer behavior is changing, especially when it comes to packaged goods and especially when it comes to how they think about consumption of nutrition. And the values and the product attributes that Campbell's was portraying at a certain point may not resonate like they used to now, especially for a different audience. So I think this could be a good time if I was the marketer there to if they were thinking about repositioning the product or thinking about innovating the product, it might be a great time to do that at the backs of something like this. Right. And kind of signaling to the marketplace, hey, you know, I don't care what this guy says. Here's the way we're thinking about our our consumer and how we're thinking about what they would like. It's coming out in a couple of months or in a year or so. look out for it. Also lean into certain things and be honest and transparent, I don't think is a bad thing either. For sure. And it's a great time to do that because market consumers are getting priced out of premium and ready to return to staple goods and simplification. So Campbell's should be thinking, how do we set ourselves up for an increase in mass adoption? Not how do we keep defending our position in a shrinking category with a PR nightmare, battling a PR nightmare at the same time. Exactly. Well, and I think it's an opportunity, like you said, a rebrand would be wonderful. It would also be great to be able to kind of delve back into some of that nostalgia, like a get back to the kitchen table initiative or something like that, where you're actually, you know, bringing ambassadors that work the front line, for example, and share, having them sit around the kitchen table and share their favorite recipes or that, you know, put their pride and accountability back into the product. And also talk about, you're right, the evolution of food in general and what people actively are looking for and requirements has changed. I mean, people are very concerned about the different nutrient levels, the sodium levels, you know, all these kinds of things. And, you know, thinking that like one soup over another is better may not necessarily be true. It's just how they've been branded, right? One's like, oh, you know, like, what's the difference between tomato bisque and tomato soup, right? But there's a feeling, an elevated feeling of, oh, if I get tomato bisque, this is something different, right? And so I think that there's a way in which they can engage the customers as well as their own team in order to kind of push what they're known for back to the forefront and in a way that is transformative. Well, they've been on the defensive about the products and say, well, no, we don't have 3D printed meat. I don't know where that came from. We have quality ingredients and it's all farm fresh and it's, you know, farm to table, whatever, you know, whatever position they're taking. But the focus has been on the integrity of the products, but not so much about our audience is everybody. Everyone eats soup. And how could he, you know, they try to isolate and say that's one individual he doesn't even work with, you know, in the product section. And I don't know what he's trying to say by defining, putting stigmas on our audience, you know, they haven't really figured that out from a PR perspective or an optics perspective. So do you think we'll see that? Do you think maybe, again, maybe by the time this comes out, I'll take a stance on that, but do you think we'll be seeing that in the coming days, weeks, months? I hope so. I mean, I think this is such an opportunity as, you know, just listening to you all to like, come out with this plan. Like you said, internally, talk about what you're going to do again, how you're going to live into your values. Again, HR, mandatory HR training, table stakes, right? But like, here's what's happening internally. Here's what we're doing at the leadership level. We brought in this, you know, external auditor. We're going to do some, like all the things internally that we're going to do to make sure that folks have psychological safety. And like, we're going to, we're going to take our culture to the next level. And then at the same time, while we're at it. We're also going to tell you about how we are doing X, Y, and Z with our product. I know we love how the Campbell's soup can looks, but maybe it's revitalized. Maybe they get a spokesperson. Maybe, you know, again, I'm not a marketer, so don't hold me to this if this is not the way it should be going. But the point remains that like they have an opportunity here actually to do something really amazing. The thing that I would strongly encourage them not to do is to be quiet, especially in this day and age. I think being quiet or kind of coming out with that standard statement, again, a firing here or there, that has worked, right? We have to acknowledge that has worked in the past. But today, the consumer, just the general public on social media alone is not having it. And so when we can go down and kind of list the companies that have tried to stay quiet, it hasn't worked for them when things have happened. So again, I would strike while this iron is hot. Take something that happened negative here and actually make it work for you because there is an opportunity here to do that. Love that. And I also think that this is the right time of year too. So with the holidays and everybody making green bean casserole, I mean, that is a staple of Campbell soup, right? Cream and mushroom soup. So they should be like going full force in on the timing of this. They should be doing a viral good campaign. Send us all your TikToks of good, you know, and like that, that would be so cute, funny, you know, whatever. They probably need to like lean into it, right. And say, you know, this is what we're about. And then they can look to a more longer term strategy of, is this a time for them to transform the brand, suit the taste. We've seen how like changing the labels and things like Cracker Barrel, like that doesn't always go over very well. So you may want to think about that, but you may want to think about like, they have the data, like what soups are doing well, what soups continue to do well and what soups don't, right? You know, and what things are out there that you're seeing that are different in the art, you know, the tastes are different in today's world, right? So. Yeah, I would say that I agree with everything you guys are saying. The challenge is what's the sentiment inside that building? You know what I mean? Like that's what's really holding it up, right? And from seeing what Campbell has done in the past few years, have they really done campaigns that lean in? Probably not as much as we would like. Are they nimble enough to move at the pace that you're saying? You haven't really seen that. So the likelihood that they do that is going to be tough, especially with the crisis on top of them, you know? So I would love what you're saying. And they need to be a strong leader to push that agenda, but, you know, we can only hope. Yeah. In a situation like this, you don't know if the conversation internally is, oh no, one of us got caught, be more careful. Or if it's, you know, I can't believe this person was among us this whole time. We are so different from the values and perspectives of that individual. So we don't know that they're probably having some tough conversations right now, maybe some self-evaluation. In a market like this, where, With mass layoffs, it's hard to even get into a company. The fact that the company's put up with this type of stuff at the top is baffling. It sounds like this was kind of a known incident, known person, probably. Well, the recording is the first one that made it out, but we could guess there's a pattern of behavior behind that to the point where it was recorded by another individual at the company to say, look, hold this up to the light. Look at what's happening here. And that got fired. And that person got fired. He made the audio come to light. Stuff like, you know, they thought that they handled it by firing him, not firing the other guy. That's right. So it truly, I think Javier brings up a good point, is that like that culture has been embedded for a long time. And so they don't necessarily think they did anything wrong. They did what, you know, they were forced to let that person get the VP go. But like they weren't going to. They thought they handled the situation. And they paid off that guy. Well, I don't even know if they paid him off, but he was gone. And they were like, OK. And I think that Campbell's is just one of many companies that, you know, like there are other companies right now that are like, oh, God, you know, going through the same thing because they've done the same thing. And they're like thinking, what would we do if this gets out there? Right. You know, so they're trying to make sure everything is cleaned up. But Campbell's was the one that got kind of caught. And it's a very unfortunate situation. But I think, Javier, you bring up a very good point that if there's no impetus to change around the table, then, you know, it's still a billion dollar soup company or whatever, you know. Melissa you touched on this you know even in your intro I mean look we're talking about the conditions that are ripe and that like have been what's the word like almost encouraged right like and I feel like it's two things right that you touched on just to bring those back up it's like one it's on the leadership side it's like yes I rise through hierarchy that the accountability and the consequences feel theoretical to me right like you see this erosion of like self-awareness small behaviors go unchecked, egos grow, right? And that person who you know become as they ascend higher becomes toxic the rules don really apply to them And then on top of that like the other side is you know the culture or the people around them and especially the more junior employees kind of understand like we don't speak up because the system has taught us not to. Right. So we have created this culture internally, even if it's just a couple of executives that like, look, this person is going to behave how they're going to behave. They're untouchable. And let's be clear during calibrations and all those things, they're going to impact my ability to move up. So I'm not saying anything. It's not even worth it. And I think that's why, like when we talk about, okay, so what is the fix? Like I said, those HR trainings and things like that, table stakes. But I think we do have to expect to hold these executives in companies to a higher standard, right? Like you make the big bucks for a reason. It's not just because you're making decisions. It's because you have a disproportionate level of influence. People are watching you. The character bar has to be higher. It's not equal to, you know, we all want folks in the company. Everybody needs to be operating and living into the values. But let's be real. People are looking up, so to speak, to the executives to see if they are actually, you know, doing what they should be doing in terms of living out those values first. And if they're not, everybody else kind of follows suit because why should I? Well, I also think that one of the things that like Kadira has mentioned oftentimes is when we think about those owners and the leadership level, holding them accountable looks like different things. And I think that, you know, character and integrity can't be overstated enough. I have been at plenty of companies where that has come into question at the highest levels of leadership, because tough decisions have to be made, right? And you need to showcase that you're willing to make those tough decisions, and that you're not going to allow behavior that, you know, it's just not the right type of behavior. And it's not conducive to a collaborative work environment. You've got to be strong about that. And I think that to her point, I think a lot of times it's easier to just say, that's not my lane. So I'm not even going to worry about it. That's his problem or her problem. That's not my problem. But it is because ultimately all the leaders in the room get like some of that crap back washed onto them. Right. So like, even though he got fired, the entire IT department looks like is probably internally in shambles from a morale perspective, right? Because they're like, our highest leader just got let go for saying all these things that are crazy and are not values that we live by or by this company. Yet he was only let go because it came to light and there was a recording. Like if there was no recording, he probably, they would fight it. I bet you. Yeah. And there are probably other potential whistleblowers watching this very situation saying, do I dare speak out? Look what happens. I'm just going to keep my head down and let it get worse and worse. Well, Javier, this situation could keep getting worse. If we wanted to do, let's get B creatives. And if we want to give Campbell's the get to know the real us reintroduction, here's who we are. Let's give them a campaign, the win back campaign. What's that going to look like? You know, I do think there's some charm to the taglines that they had before and playing off of that Because you want to play off of the times when it had more of a, it meant something to this country, right? So what I would do is, you know, I think Melissa is a great marketer because all her ideas I loved. So I would go down that path, really leaning in and engaging the community that actually eats Campbell and really enjoys it and showcase that and let them be the community that uplifts the brand as opposed to the corporation doing that in some capacity. It's all good. That would be my primary focus. My second focus would be kind of reshifting the conversation on this is the food for poor people is how do you support communities that need? So it's not about poor. It's about saying like this company cares about the community that's in need and not talk about folks in that context. Because there's always going to be a time, poor or rich, that you're going to need somebody else. How do you lean into that and provide services to those communities? I would go down that path. And then the last piece I would do is really talk about the product, you know, and really talk about the product is made and really kind of lean into the doubling down on what it is or how to improve it. You know what I mean? Like I think those three things focus on the community, focus on giving back in some capacity and then product innovation or product opposition on that will be a good one. Because then it kind of dilutes that conversation that it's not good food, right? It's just for those folks you want to get into the space of we care about what we create and this is what it is, you know, and this is why it's important. Sounds like a fix to me. So if we focus on the community, focus on give back initiatives and make sure that the communities we support are nourished and flourishing. Lean into product innovation, embrace some of our long term taglines and things at the core that the brand is known for. Corporate retraining is a non-negotiable. make sure that anyone sees bad behavior going on is listened to and respected and actionable. Repercussions happen and creating a safe space. I think that all sounds pretty transformative. I might have missed something in there, but are these the right building blocks for our fix? And we're going to hand it back to Campbell's. What do you say, Melissa? I think this is a great start. I do think that the one thing that like Kedira was mentioning, I think we have to hold their leadership to character integrity. And I think that there should be some sort of KPIs that are not just the fiscal outcomes of the business, but how they actually do the work. Right. So it's not just what you do, it's how you do it. And I think that's really important. And that needs to trickle down all the way to all levels of employees. I love this idea of community Javier I think that's wonderful and I love the idea of like bringing them to the table everyone deserves a seat at the kitchen table to share a meal and then like having it be like some really fun campaign and whether that's on TikTok or you know whether that's an actual commercial but I think that when you think about the things that kind of draw people toward that is when it gets to that emotional soul of yours where you're like well this reminds me of like when i was sick as a child or this reminds me of my neighbor next door and he would make this amazing tuna fish casserole right so i think those are the kinds of things that they need to get back to but i do think if they choose not to do anything that's a problem definitely yeah so reconnect with the sense memory reconnect with when you first discovered camels reconnect with the sick day and you know and make make that part of inherently why you would reach for it in the store. Kadira, did we fix it? I think we are on the right track. I think we gave them some great ideas here. I love, love, love what Javier, y'all know how I feel about social responsibility and the fact that you called that out. I mean, it creates the reputational halo. Hopefully they, you know, they should have all of this stuff in place anyway, but game changer. Look, this, what happened exposed systems that have failed, that either have been put into place that we've turned our heads, the system has failed. Okay, if they make some structural changes, if they make the appropriate investment, they have an opportunity to actually take this and a year, five years, whatever from now, when they're looking back, say this actually helped propel our company to took it to the next level. But I completely agree with you, Melissa, to sit quietly or to just do what they have done so far, it's probably not going to be enough. So take this bad thing and make it work for you. okay great javier last word did we fix campbells are they good to go from this point on if they do everything we just told them to do if they listen to us they will be fine they just need courage and courage yeah yeah yeah and i'll reiterate you know it has to play out but i think the economy is going to swing back into campbell's favor and they just gave everyone a reason not to buy from them so they've got a little time to get their act together refocus and uh give everyone a reason to trust camels again and they they should be you know i think we'll see a reverse trend next year but uh we'll we'll have to see how it plays out yeah well that's gonna put a lid on this episode of we fixed it you're welcome and that became a spicy spicy topic Before we go, I want to give one more thanks to our guest, Javier Farfan. Javier, tell our listeners, how do they connect with you or keep tabs on what you're doing? Look for Javier Farfan on LinkedIn. I try to keep it low key on the social media side just because I think I'm trying to stay away from it. So LinkedIn is the best way for me. Fantastic. Well, again, really great having you here. Thank you, Kadira. Thank you, Melissa. To our listeners, we've gotten some really fun submissions for our season finale episode. which comes out next week. There's still time to get yours in. We'll get to as many as we can, we promise. If you want to play along, here's what you do. Give us a company that's been on your mind. Tell us what's going on with them and what you would fix if you were in charge. Here's an example. So Starbucks makes a double espresso, but they don't make a corenta, which would be twice as big as a venti. And that's what I need to wake me up in the morning. What do you think about my fix? So you tell us something like that. That's my example. You need to think up your own. So when you do record a voice note, should be about a minute long. send it into myfix at wefixeditpod.com. That's myfix at wefixeditpod.com. Even if we don't get to yours, we will keep it on hand and you might make it to a future episode. So play along at home. We can't wait to hear what you come up with and we will see you next time.