We Are Living in a ‘ChatGPT Flyer Pandemic’

This is lazy. If you are doing this, I'm not coming to your party. I'm not coming to your function. I'm not coming to your business. No matter what your event is, no matter what your business is, your poster looks the same. Hello, and welcome to the 404 Media Podcast, where we bring you unparalleled access to hidden worlds both online and IRL. 404 Media is adjourned this family company and needs your support. to subscribe, go to 404media.co. As well as bonus content every single week, subscribers also get access to additional episodes where we respond to their best comments. Getting access to that content at 404media.co. Also, do remember to subscribe to our YouTube channel where you can watch all of our episodes and video. Subscribe at youtube.com slash at 404media.co. I'm your host, Joseph. And with me are all of the 404 Media co-founders, the first being Sam Cole. Hello. Emmanuel Mayberg. Hello. And Jason Kepler. Hey, what's up? All right. Good to be back. We're going to jump straight into a story that I think everyone has seen in some sort of way. I was just on break and I saw examples myself and I was going to send them to you, but then I actually had my phone off. That was the entire point, but they were absolutely everywhere. Of course, I'm talking about chat GPT or AI generated posters of businesses being absolutely everywhere. The headline of this piece is, We are living in a chat GPT flyer pandemic. Jason, you wrote this. We'll get into what these posters are for those people who don't really know. But like, when did you actually start noticing this was a thing? Because surely you'd seen them a ton, but then something clicked. you really started noticing all of these AI generator posters? Yeah, I think shamefully, I didn't notice them for a while. But I was walking around my house and I saw one of these easels, like a sidewalk sign that businesses put out on the sidewalk in front of their restaurant. And it was for surf lessons. And I could tell that the ocean was AI generated and everything was really generic. And then I realized at the bottom of the poster, there were all these generic icons that were like, fun waves, fun times, family, hang 10. And for some reason, that just clicked for me. This wasn't even that egregious. We'll talk about some of the examples of ChatGPT posters that we've seen over the last few weeks that readers and listeners have sent us. But this one was quite inoffensive as far as these things go. But for some reason, I was just like, that's AI. I know that's AI. And that was in the morning of some day that I was walking around. And I feel like by lunchtime, I had seen similar AI generated posters everywhere, just in my own neighborhood. And I was like, oh, my eyes are open to this now. I see them everywhere. Yeah. Once it clicks, you're like, oh, God, I can't stop seeing them everywhere. Sam, are you the same? Are you seeing them everywhere as well? Yeah, I am now. I saw it's like a local ice cream shop posted on Instagram, an AI flyer. like this weekend. I was like, how are we still doing this? It is something that I started noticing about a year ago where people were using, like stores were using that cartoony, like comic strip sort of illustration style in their advertising. And I saw one, I think I texted you guys about it, like when I saw it a year ago in Brooklyn. And it was like a guy in a oven and it was in front of like an appliance store and it said, get AC and stop cooking yourself. But he has like no, it's just like shoulders up. He's in a tiny oven or he's huge. no legs, no anything he's just like sticking out of the oven like cooking I was like this is bizarre and freaky and I don't like it but you do have to keep seeing it over and over to clock it because you just see one instance of that and you're like that's a weird illustration and then you see the same exact style over and over and you're like oh that's AI yeah it was similar with the Studio Ghibli stuff when that was big for a bit and then businesses started doing that as well and that It didn't have as long a tail as this. It seems like everybody's doing these posters, but the comment strip stuff as well. Emanuel, are you seeing these flyers everywhere as well? Yeah, it's one of those things where I wasn't thinking about it at all. And as soon as Jason pitched the headline, I was like, Oh my God, he's so right. I have been seeing them everywhere. And I would say there's two places where you see them. One is actually online. like its businesses. I assume they also print them out, but I see them on Facebook, right? It's like a local store or a class or like a studio or something. We'll share a flyer as a digital image on Facebook, which maybe is printed out or not. I don't know. I also see them around the city. It's a certain type of business that does it. I think understandably, most of the time when we cover AI, we kind of look at big corporations and how they're using it. I've looked at like Panera ads before and wondered if they're using AI and stuff like that. But it is actually kind of smaller mom and pop shops that are using this stuff. It's like not high-end places, but kind of mid-tier low-end places that are just filling a niche that they, I don't know, used to draw by hand on a chalkboard or something. Yeah. I mean, like, they're the ones that are going to get the most, I guess, financial benefit out of it. You know, they may not have the money for a graphic designer, even to outsource it or Fiverr or something like that. And I don't know, they realize, oh, we can just use AI to quickly generate this flyer. That's going to be great for business. But people don't like it, obviously. Jason, what's sort of the reaction being, not just from sort of our readers and listeners who sent in examples, but people are talking about this online, right? Where they're saying, this sucks, please don't do this. Yeah, I mean, this is one of those things where I did notice this on my own. I was like, oh my God, this is crazy. And then I started seeing it. And then I was like, are other people talking about this? And one place that people are talking about this a lot is in the artists and graphic design community, obviously, because I think one, it's an example of their jobs being taken away. a lot of these people are freelancers or do gig work and they're maybe not getting as many commissions. And then the other thing is it's offensive to them. Just the style of it is so in your face. It's like, if you've seen these, there's almost no white space or design sensibility on any of them. It's just almost all these posters just assault your eyes with just stuff. and then another thing that's a dead giveaway I think and a big one is the font where it has like really jagged edges there's usually like a back brush stroke across them and it's like there's little like firework type things coming out of the text and it's just like really aggressive and it reminds me a lot of like papyrus and impact and comic sans and these other like design memes that we've seen over the course of various decades But basically, there's been a lot of designers on Instagram being like, don't do this. And sort of saying like, we are living in a chat GPT poster pandemic. That's actually not my framing. That was like the framing of several different viral Instagrams that I linked to and show in the article. And it's become like a major topic of conversation there. just being like, this is lazy. If you are doing this, I'm not coming to your party. I'm not coming to your function. I'm not coming to your business. And then there's been examples of bars and music venues and things like this that take flyers from the community where they might have a bulletin board or maybe they post events on their Instagram or their Facebook or something like that. And a lot of these places have stopped taking flyers that are clearly AI generated. One, because it demonstrates a lack of effort in what it is that you're going to be doing. And I think some places are scared of having a Willy Wonka chocolate factory experience, which was like this party, I believe it was in Scotland or maybe Ireland. It was like a year and a half ago. and all of the promotion materials were AI generated, promising this really crazy Willy Wonka experience for kids. And then you show up and it's a few plastic folding tables and it's just the saddest thing you've ever seen. And it's very similar to Fyre Fest, although the scale of it was much less. But I think that venues and people are scared of getting into a situation like that because with AI, you can promise this ridiculous, magical experience at your event or your restaurant or whatever. And then the actual party is going to just be like shit. Yeah, it was in Glasgow in February 2024. Sam sends an example of one of the posters to our group chat. And yeah, it's everything you said. There is no white space. It's almost like looking more at a menu than a poster. you know i mean like a really horrible laminated menu inside like a crappy restaurant or something and it feels more like that and i like do you know what the prompt they're using like are they are they doing like an elaborate prompt where like well i need to give it the date and stuff like presumably right like i'm just wondering how it's making so much fucking information on this poster in response to a in response to a prompt you know yeah it's really interesting because At first, I thought this was Canva, which is an online graphic design program that we use for some things and has become really popular. And I didn't actually realize it was ChatGPT for a while. There may be other AI tools. I'm not saying every single example is definitely ChatGPT, but the vast majority of them are ChatGPT from what I can tell. because ChatGPT makes the same type of poster over and over and over again. And I tested this out a bit. I haven seen so many videos or guides that are like here how to make a ChatGPT poster But I think what happening is literally people who are experimenting with ChatGPT it's the most popular AI tool out there, are saying, I need to make an advertisement for my business, or I need to make a flyer for my business, or I want to make a poster or a sign for my business. And then if you ask ChatGPT that, it will say, yes, of course, give me the following information. And then it will ask you, what's the name of your business? What do you want the logo to look like? What day is your party? If it's a party, what time is your party? All of this. And so I did that a few times just for fake parties where I was like, I'm going to have a 4th of July party at Jason's house. And you put your real address into chat GPT. Of course. Yes. And I did that. And what it spit out on the other side was exactly one of these posters. And so I think what's happening basically is ChatGPT will guide you through the process. So that's why it's ending up looking so similar is because you'll say like, I want a professional poster for my business. And it will give you a prompt back and it'll say, answer the following questions. And that's what's happening, I think. Yeah. So you've seen your own examples, we've seen them as well. But then people, readers and listeners were sending them to you as well. Did you put a call out on Blue Sky or an email or something? Yeah, I did a few things. So one, for the last few weeks, I've been asking all of you guys to send me examples that you see. And I find it way more interesting when these are out in the real world versus posted on Facebook. Although I've seen some really wild ones on Facebook. But my own spotting interests are really big versions of it. So on billboards, on the facades of buildings, physical signs, I just find it to be... It's like they went through the extra effort to actually print them out and stuff like that. So in the email when we published this article, I said, If you've seen these, send me examples. and then when I posted it on Blue Sky and on X, I said, this is going to be a thread of the worst ChatGPT posters you've seen. And I got so many responses. I got like hundreds of responses. And a lot of them are like, I wouldn't say inoffensive, but they're just kind of all samey where it's like, we're doing a 4th of July event. There's tons of 4th of July ones done by either local bars. There were tons of World Cup ones. World Cup were the ones I saw. Yeah. I saw a lot of them. But the ones that I really loved were when it was something offbeat or odd. Maybe we can show some of them on YouTube. We can flip through them. But my favorite one is one called Belt to Ass Energy Drink. That was outside of a New York City bodega. And it's like, I don't know what the fuck this energy drink is, but it's insane. On the Venice Beach Boardwalk, I saw one that's just viral snacks, exotic snacks by TikTok. And then it's just so clearly AI generated. um you know there was one for like endangered fish uh done by like a local government there was this arby's takeover one that i don't know if this one may have been a joke like uh but i did see it going around a lot but it's just like a mountain of meat and uh like pikachu is on it It's just like, it's an assault on your senses. We'll show it. There's like a sushi taco one that's just like has a cat holding a bunch of sushi tacos that are clearly fake. There's one for like a gay bear meetup in South Africa that has a quote from Paul McCarthy, which I think they meant Paul McCartney. Right. Unclear. Yeah, just like a lot of this type of thing. Paul's also not a bear. there's a lot of confusion let's fact check this right a lot of confusion going on there um i mean you touched on this given the blowback in sort of the creative space and the artist communities and that sort of thing but you did actually speak to someone at a creative design studio for some perspective jason like what they say was a place in toronto right yeah uh i thought that that what they had to say was was quite interesting and not something i had thought about where they were basically like, shitty graphic design has existed forever. Which I knew, you know, of course, it's like you've seen really busy, poorly done graphic design all the time. I'm guilty of making it myself. But they saw this as kind of like the YouTube thumbnail-fication of real world, where everything sort of starts looking the same and is trying to grab your attention in this very specific same way. And I think that small businesses and businesses in general have been trying to find out how to cut costs since forever. And if you're not an artistically inclined person, that has probably been through skimping on your graphic design and your flyers and things like that. So I mentioned earlier, templatized signs and graphic design is something that's been around forever where I'm just going to dump this into either Canva or MS Paint or whatever. And that resulted in tons and tons of really weird posters and flyers. The difference is that when you had people doing that, it usually resulted in things that were uniquely bad. They were bad in an interesting way. That said, there were memes I mentioned earlier. It's like there was a long time where businesses were using Comic Sans for everything or they were using papyrus font. like yoga studios were using papyrus font or like I feel like a lot of like Thai and Japanese restaurants were using like papyrus font to like imply that they were fancy in some way. And clip art. Clip art was like a aesthetic. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. And then of course like impact font from memes and stuff. And it's just like you associate these design elements with either different types of businesses or different types of like graphic design like eras. I guess. But to me, I longed for those days. I don't know if I'm just a boomer about this, but I enjoy when things are bad in a unique and interesting way. And what we're seeing with these ChatGPT posters is that no matter what your event is, no matter what your business is, your poster looks the same because it's being run through the same software using similar prompts and that sort of thing. So regardless of whether you're throwing a dance party or you have a restaurant or you're doing an ocean cleanup event, the graphic design ends up looking the same and it kind of sucks. Exactly to this point, I'm sharing a tweet that I saw in Slack. And basically, it is cycling through, I don't know, dozens, hundreds of these posters. and this person whose name on twitter is manny 404 he's an artist i've talked to him for a previous story um when we were at vice a long time ago but he says counterpoint chat gpt flyers are the first original aesthetic of seen in years and they will be looked upon nostalgically in 10 years i thought that was a pretty interesting point i wonder what you think i don't I don't necessarily agree or like it, but I will concede. And I think, Jason, this is exactly what you were just saying, where nostalgia has a way of transforming the stinkiest herd into something you love. So I can imagine that being the case. Yeah, I saw that post as well. And I think it's interesting. People have said this about AI Slop as well, where they're like, AI Slap is actually very creative and it's creative in the following ways for the following reasons. And one of those reasons is because it creates something that's surreal or weird because of the disconnect between what a human is asking for and what the AI is interpreting it as. And for some other reasons as well, such as you can make anything very quickly. And I guess I understand the argument. I do. And I think it's a position that someone could hold, but I don't really think that we'll look back on this and be like, wow, that was the dawn of a boom of new advertising. And it was really good for small businesses and all of that. And I think one of the reasons for that, and I guess we should be very explicit here, it's like a lot of small businesses can't afford a graphic designer or don't have time to. It's like they're running really small margins. It's harder than ever for a small restaurant to succeed. And that's where we're seeing most of these. That's where most of these are coming from. Yeah. And so I don't want to... I'm not trying to specifically shit on any specific small business that doesn't understand the conversation that's happening on Blue Sky or Instagram or whatever. A lot of these are very offline businesses that are doing this. I think, one, I wanted to write about it because I just started seeing them everywhere. And also, I should note, this is not an American phenomenon. This is happening all over the world. People sent me examples from South Africa, from Japan, from the Middle East. I saw them in Europe when I was just in Europe, everywhere in all sorts of different languages. This is happening everywhere. but what's happening is people are having this like visceral rejection of this sort of thing and I think it's something where maybe small businesses are not going to know that unless they're quite online it's hard to say like how at scale the rejection of this is but like it is a big conversation that's happening and people are upset by it and I think it's just like worth acknowledging that as well And then there also been a move to just do it in MS Paint Do a handwritten sign If you do a handwritten sign with chicken scratch that is more interesting and notable than a lot of the things that we're seeing now. Yeah. Do you think some businesses will realize it's potentially bad for them? But that said, Like, what, is somebody going to go in to one of these stores and be like, Hey, I'm not giving you my business because your flyer is chat GPT generated? I mean, some people might, but I don't know whether that divide is ever going to be crossed. You know what I mean? I guess we just have to wait and see if people actually, I don't know, take their business elsewhere or something. Yeah. I mean, the theory that I've seen is that it won't hurt you so much in the short run, but maybe in the long term, you'll start to annoy your customers or customers will think like this is really lazy. Or maybe, I mean, maybe it is something where it's just like, well, I'll accept it. Posters will get better. Like it will, things like this will get integrated into things like Canva and other graphic design tools that where maybe there is more human involvement with some AI elements. I mean, AI is being shoved into like every Adobe product, for example, and sort of where AI begins and human, where like human development and art starts. And like, you know, if you apply a filter to things, like, is that AI? Like, blah, blah, blah. Like, that's an open question. I think maybe that's just like where this will eventually go. And this is like the early days of people just typing this into ChatGPT and just using whatever pops out on the other side. Like, maybe it will get better over time. I don't really know. But right now they just like look terrible, I think. I will note, if you're looking for optimism, of injury and accident lawyers, I think, have not picked up generative AI yet in their ads. And they're like the vanguard of beautiful, shitty art. So maybe they know something. Morgan & Morgan, Top Dog, shout out to Top Dog. Call Jacob, ask Jacob. Yeah, they're not doing it. They're still doing bespoke, shitty ads. And maybe that's a good sign. That's beautiful. You know one font that will never, ever go out of style? Copperplate Gothic Bold. See that everywhere. Literally, whenever I see that font, I nudge my friend to be like, that's Copperplate Gothic Bold. You know, we'll go past it. Great font. That's never going to go down the Papyrus or Comic Sans route. I didn't know this and now I'm looking at it and you're right. I see this everywhere. It's classic. I don't like it. I don't like it. It's the font from Hitman, Emmanuel. From the early Hitman games. That's how I know it. That's nothing for me. We got to go back to Times New Roman. I used to say, we got to go back to that. Return to tradition. I feel people try to do that. Yeah, exactly. All right. We'll leave that there when we come back after the break. Waymo is snitching. We'll be right back after this. If you've listened to this show for more than a week, you know our beat is uncovering how your data is quietly harvested and exposed online. And if you're like us, working remotely, constantly on the move, and running your entire life off your laptop and phone, well, you're leaving a massive digital footprint. Every time you jump between networks, check emails on the go, or browse from a new location, your device is broadcasting your activity. Advertisers can track your activity, leading to targeted ads, price discrimination, and a sense of being monitored. It's the kind of systemic tracking we'd normally write a story about. That's why we recommend Surfshark. At its core, Surfshark VPN keeps your online activity private by hiding your IP address. It encrypts your connection, making your online activity much harder to track, so your research, your sources, and your personal data stay private no matter where you're working from. But Surfshark does far more than that. It blocks ads and trackers, which cuts down on the price discrimination games that sites based on what they know about you. It includes Alert, which monitors your ID for data leaks, and an email scam checker that protects against phishing attacks. And if you game, it helps defend against DDoS attacks and ISP throttling. Since you're always on the move, the best part is that one subscription secures unlimited devices so your entire household is covered. Go to surfshark.com slash 404media to get four extra months of Surfshark VPN with the reassurance of a 30-day money-back guarantee. Or just use code 404media at checkout. That's surfshark.com slash 404media. People think a lot about their clothes, but they often settle when they buy glasses. They find a pair that's fine. But then you wear them every single day on your face for the next few years. because buying glasses feels like such a hassle that you don't want to think about it all that often. That's what surprised me about Warby Parker. Warby Parker has made the whole process of buying glasses easier. And for the first time, I found frames that I actually am excited to wear. Warby Parker's virtual try-on feature is honestly the coolest part. You open your phone, point the camera at yourself, and you can see different frames on your face in real time. That's important for me. I have a really wide head. And so I was able to just use Warby Parker's try-on feature. And it took the guesswork out of trying to imagine what they'll actually look like. These are my sunglasses that I wear, honestly, every single day. These are the Elio's. I actually have them in two different colors because I love how they look on my face. And honestly, I get compliments on them way more often than I expect. They feel premium, they're comfortable, and they don't feel like I have to spend a fortune to get quality. Prescription glasses start at just $95 and Warby Parker also has sunglasses, contacts, online eye exams, plus more than 300 retail stores if you want an in-person option. And if you have vision insurance, they'll even help you check your eligibility and automatically apply your benefits. I've used Warby Parker for many years at this point. They've become my everyday go-to sunglasses. I live in LA. It's sunny here a lot. I'm wearing these all the time. I've also had several eye appointments at Warby Parker and I really have enjoyed those exams. They've been painless, really easy to get in and out of, and I felt like I was getting quality care. Right now, buy one pair of glasses and get 20% off any additional pairs at warbyparker.com slash 404. That's 20% off any additional pairs when you purchase one pair at warbyparker.com. slash 404. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. We talk about mental health more openly now, but asking for it, well, that's a different story. It can still be hard, and BetterHelp has the research to prove it. BetterHelp's 2026 state of stigma report surveyed 2,000 Americans and revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise, Yet, 74% say society discourages people from doing so. There is this gap between knowing that you need some support, that you need help. Maybe you just need someone to talk to about what's going on during your week. And actually going out and getting it. There is still some stigma around getting help for mental health. A lot of us know that we've got issues. We have a hard time going out and getting support for those issues. That's where better health comes in. BetterHelp has quality therapists that all work according to a strict code of conduct and are all fully licensed to work in the United States. And they have a matching commitment. They do the initial matching for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. There's a short questionnaire that helps identify your needs and preferences. And their 12-plus years of experience in industry-leading match fulfillment rate means that usually you get a good person the first time. But if it doesn't work out, you can switch to a different therapist from any of their tailored recommendations. So, please, don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhealth.com slash 404media. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P dot com slash 404media. All right. And we are back. Sam, this is one you wrote, I believe. Cops say Waymo snitched on teens for allegedly drinking and shooting a toy gun. Straight off, there's like a lot of unanswered questions, I would say, right now. But like, what we do know is already crazy in and of itself. Let's just start with what did the police say? Like, what was this statement that the police put out? Yeah, I mean, just as a caveat, I guess, this entire story is based on police statements. So take that as you will. Famously reliable. Famously reliable, famously always accurate. Waymo hasn't replied to, as far as I can tell, anyone's request for comment, mine or any other news outlets. And a lot of people covered this. So they are staying quiet about it. So what we have is what the cops said. So on July 6th, the San Mateo Police Department, which is in the Bay Area, posted on Facebook, parents do you know where your teens are waymo does great i love that we're getting cute right off the jump um so it says two 15 year olds up to trouble in a waymo this afternoon were detained after waymo reported they were drinking and shooting from the vehicle i won't read the whole thing but the too long didn't read is they uh they say that waymo told the police called the police alerted the police to these 15 year olds who were shooting an orbeez gun which if you're not familiar with orbeez god bless you it's like a little gel bead um like a little water bead uh which i assume can probably hurt probably feels like a bb gun or something if you get shot with one so less than a bb gun like i know a bb gun but it's like it's not a level below that okay Right. It's not like an airsoft gun. It's like a little water pellet gun. But they say that they were shooting Norby's gun from the car as they sipped on afternoon libations while being chauffeured around town in the driver's vehicle. Again, wish they would be more specific about what exactly they were drinking because later in other outlets, they tell reporters that they were drinking alcohol. Again, we don't really know for sure. This is all allegedly. But basically Waymo called the cops is what the police said at that point And we know a little bit more now based on other news outlets reporting on this but that where we were at on July 6th Yeah. So the key bit of the statement there is Waymo reported, right? That's what the cops said. So do we know if it was like an automated system? Do we know if it was an employee? and if we don't, there are cameras inside Waymo's, right? That people may not fully realize. Yeah, I mean, that's a big part of the conversation is like people don't fully realize that there are like 29 cameras inside of a Waymo. So we know now from a story that K-R-O-N, Kron, I guess is maybe how you would say it, the local news outlet in the Bay Area, talked more to the cops. And they said a couple days after this happened that a Waymo employee was remotely monitoring the car and basically lied to the kids in the car and said... Because if you're in a Waymo, if you're not familiar, an employee, like a support person can get on there, like get in the speakers of the car basically and be like, hey. Or, you know, get on the screen, the touch screens and stuff and make an announcement and says like, hey, this is what's happening. But the employees told the kids that the Waymo was having mechanical issues and had to stop. And then at that point, the cops say that Waymo then directed the car to a spot where the police were waiting. So they did a sting. It drove them to the cops. Yeah. Right. And then the cops were there waiting. with like, the cops didn't know because the Waymo support person was like, there's someone in the car with something that looks like a gun because it was like a toy gun that was like painted over. And these toy guns look like, I mean, they're like kind of big. They don't look like little like water guns, but they didn't know for sure what it was that they had in the car. So there were a bunch of cops waiting for them. It was like five cops were waiting at the spot and they got out of the car with their guns. And there's video of this. And then opened up the Waymo doors and found these two kids in there shooting Orbeez and I guess drinking. The police said that they're reviewing the situation for underage drinking charges. But yeah, it's super interesting because I think people don't realize that if you're in a Waymo, there's always the potential. They say that they're not continually monitoring what's going on inside of the car. But I do think there is some kind of passive monitoring happening because how would they know that these kids were messing around in a car waving a gun around, you know, drinking? Yeah, there must be some sort of thing which is monitoring the audio, monitoring the visuals, because you're not going to just live monitor every single Waymo that's on the road at once, right? It needs to be surfaced in some capacity. Yeah, and Waymo is transparent about this on their support pages. They say that a support team may review video under certain circumstances, including after an issue is brought to our attention, and may access live video during a trip in more urgent circumstances. But it's not very clear when those circumstances are brought to Waymo's attention, if not from you pushing a button that says, like, I need help, which you can do. Instead of Waymo, you can say, like, I need to talk to a support person immediately. um i assume these 15 year olds didn't ask waymo to take a look right i don't know maybe they did maybe they were like check this shit out but i doubt it you know it's like yeah we've seen instances before where people claim that waymo has chimed in a support person has said like you need to get inside the car because they're like hanging out the car like with their phone or um you need to get it get seated or something like that so um there's been like more minor cases of this, but I think this is the first time that a Waymo has actually delivered someone to the police. Yeah. Which is literally a plot of a cyberpunk side quest. By the way. Yeah, yeah. I think it literally is. The Della Main car. Right. When you get into a Waymo, it tells you, or at least maybe on the app, it tells you that the cameras are always on, but the microphones are not. But they have microphones and that they can enable the microphones at any point if they think something bad is happening. And it's not clear how they determine something bad is happening, whether that is done by a human, whether that's done by image recognition, whatever. It seems like in this case, it was done by this human Waymo employee. But I would have to imagine it's a mix of the both of the two. And I think that's a very... I'd like to know. How are they determining when there's distress occurring? yeah and like this was probably uh at least in waymo's eyes like a very legitimate use of that like if they see a gun shaped object they feel they they need to act or something but you still want to know as a passenger or even a passerby well what systems are in place so it's not like it's just because a waymo employee just log on anytime and just start looking at me or whatever like we've had with so many of the various smart devices scandals over the years when it comes to audio or video and that sort of thing. I mean, Jason, this relates to some of your earlier coverage about cops sending subpoenas to Waymo for footage collected by the vehicles. Just remind us what that context is. Yeah, I mean, there's been at least one case in LA, maybe more, where the LAPD requested footage from Waymo. And this was basically like LAPD knew that a crime occurred somewhere near a Waymo. And then they retroactively went and asked Waymo for the footage that the car recorded of the outside world. I'm not aware of footage or anything that's come from inside a Waymo where a crime was being committed in a Waymo. Or where this is a different thing that's happening. But I think that, I mean, it's obviously very related, but I'm saying that usually it's like an after the fact thing where the cops are already aware of a crime and then they go and they request the footage and they either subpoena it or they request it. Like you've done reporting that a lot of social media companies, and I think maybe telecom companies to some extent, have like these portals where law enforcement can request footage that they don't have to go through a subpoena of formal like legal process. and I think that it's kind of unclear the extent to which Waymo is willing to cooperate with police and I think that in this case where it's like they're proactively going to the police that's like quite concerning and I think it's just a reminder that these things are surveillance vehicles like on wheels basically. Yeah, same with the delivery robots and various other things we're seeing. And on that, Sam, we are seeing more of this backlash against autonomous systems, but also Waymo's specifically. I can't remember who shared it in Slack, but there was this video of a guy beating the shit out of a Waymo a couple of days ago or something. I guess we haven't done any reporting on it, but what do you think is happening there? Is this just part of like a built up resentment against these vehicles or something? Like, what do you think? Yeah, I think so. I think it's probably in large part that it's also, I mean, we've talked about like our conflicting, like feelings about Waymo on this podcast before. I see people break the law in incredibly dangerous ways every single day in Brooklyn and elsewhere and ways that like are like near death experiences just walking around. Um, so I don't know. It's like, I'm ready to beat the shit out of any car that comes near me ever again. And maybe a Waymo will be in my path next time. Like, I don't know. But, um, there, there's also been a lot of instances lately where Waymos are just fucking up massively. I don't know if you guys saw the video of the Waymo running over the fireworks over the 4th of July weekend. It just stopped over a rocket, you know? And just parked, sort of thing. Kind of. Yeah. It just stopped there. I think it probably realized too late that it was driving through the middle of a party. Which is... That's not good. And there's somebody in the car recording that. It's like, you know, that's not safe either. It's like they apply by the rules of the road the way a robot would. But then in these situations that require a human mind, they just totally bork it. So I don't know. I think people are frustrated by everything in this space and anything that involves automation. And I think driverless cars are a part of that. So and, you know, it's like it's the same way that people kick the delivery robots for like blocking the sidewalks. Like these are private companies operating in very public spaces and using these public spaces as experiments. And I think that is their whole business model and they can't function without it. And they should be ready for people to kick the shit out of their robots if people choose to. you know it's like they're also covered in cameras so i don't suggest doing that please don't do that you will probably go to jail for destruction public public not public property private property in a public place in a public place so yeah i don't know it's it's an interesting time we see a lot of people defacing cameras in public things like that which again is another private company um operating as an experiment on the public so i get it for sure totally makes sense all right we'll leave that there if you're listening to the free version of the podcast i'll now play us out but if you are a paying 404 media subscriber you get to hear about how i bought a three thousand dollar cybersuit that electrocutes your muscles how about that you can subscribe and gain access to that content at 404media.co as a reminder 404 media is journalist founded and supported by subscribers if you do wish to subscribe to 404 media and directly support our work, please go to 404media.co. You'll get unlimited access to our articles and an ad-free version of this podcast. You'll also get to listen to the subscribers only section where we talk about a bonus story each week. This podcast is produced by Alyssa Midcalf. Another way to support us is by leaving a five-star rating and review for the podcast. That stuff really does help us out. This has been 404 Media. We'll see you again next week. Thank you.